Seek truth was really our message to the entire company. So don't just give us something that optimizes your area. But it was that frustration of decisions coming to us that weren't the whole truth 'cause they didn't look at it from an enterprise perspective. Let's get to the truth. That what someone wants it to be, what is it? How can you demonstrate it with information, data and information, so we can make the very best decision quickly. (silence) - Hey, when you're leading at the highest level, there's one thing you can't afford to lose sight of. Welcome to How Leaders Lead. I'm David Novak and every week, I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader that you can be. My guest today is Mary Berra, the chair and CEO of General Motors. She started working at GM when she was just 18 years old, inspecting fenders and bumpers, no less. And today, she's leading the company through one of the biggest transformations in automotive history. And you know what really impresses me about Mary? It's her relentless commitment to seek the truth, to push for clarity and intellectual honesty as she and her team make decisions. Unfortunately, a lot of leaders end up making decisions based on assumptions or wishful thinking or just the spin of internal politics. But as you'll learn today, the best decisions and the strongest teams are built when everyone aligns around what's real, not what's convenient. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Mary Berra. I read that you drove a Chevrolet Chavette in college. You know, what did that say about who you were at that time and stage of your life? - Well, it's a really funny story, David, because actually, you know, my dad was a dye maker at Pontiac Mortar Division. And so we had gone to the Pontiac Motor Lodge and we had put a down payment on a firebird. And so I was thinking, wow, this is really great. I'm gonna be driving to firebird. Went home and my mother reminded both my dad and I that I needed to pay for college. And so we had to go back and get the deposit back and then that's when I ended up with a Chavette. But I have to tell you, it was a great vehicle, got me through college and after I used it and I was at work. So I was able to buy another vehicle. It got my brother through med school. So it was a very reliable Chevy Chavette. - I have to ask you this one. I'm sure everybody wants to know, you know, what are you driving this week? - Well, right now I'm waiting actually for a new Blazer EV to come in. Before that I was driving a Hummer SUV. But we also have a Yukon, one of our brand new internal combustion engine mid-size or full-size SUVs. And so that's what I'm driving, but I'm waiting for that Blazer. I like to always have one ice and one EV to just make sure I'm looking at all of our vehicle. - How often do you switch up the cars you drive? - Well, that's the best part of my job. I, you know, anytime I want to drive one of our new vehicles to experience it for a weekend or for a period of time I can do that. So that's one of the best parts of working for a car company is getting to experience all our vehicles. - I love it. And how do you team take a look at competition? Do you drive the competitors cars as well or? - We do, we do. I would say the people that probably spend the most time driving our competitor vehicles are our chief engineers and our head of product development. They generally, many times a month on Fridays, they have drives out at our Milford Proving Grounds and we'll drive our vehicles along with the competition to make sure we know what we got to do to win and have the best vehicle and segment. - You know, it's clear, you know, I've done from all my research, you know, you're known for being a very innovative leader, someone who really invents not only your company, but yourself and you're making major strides. You know, you know, looking out, what do you think vehicles be like 10 years from now? And what should be on people's minds? - Well, I think there's two things. You know, everybody's talking about the change in propulsion, going from internal combustion engine to EVs. And I think that will happen because EVs are fun, fun to drive, instant torque, and you never need to go to the gas station. But there's two trends I think that are even more significant. One is the fact that the vehicle is now a software platform. I think that there's so much we can do to provide the customer with even better experiences integrating their life and their phone and everything into the vehicle, but doing it safely. So I think continuing to make life safer and more convenient from that perspective. But then I also think there's a huge opportunity with autonomy. And right now, General Motors, we're really proud just within the last month, Motor Trend named our driver assistance technology, Super Cruise as the best in the industry. And, but I think we can continue to improve upon that, getting all the way to what is called L4 autonomy, where literally the car is responsible and drive. Right now, driver assistance, you're still responsible, you've got to be paying attention. But it's a journey that will get there. So I believe in 10 years, we'll be there and people will drive when it's fun to drive, but when it's not, they'll have the opportunity for the vehicle to drive itself. >> It's so interesting and fascinating just how much your industry is changing. And I would imagine as a CEO, you've had to really evolve the culture to get people to really be on top of everything that's going on in terms of technology and AI and where things are going. How have you gone about doing that? >> Well, I think as the battery technology came in as software became so important, it's bringing in people outside the company who are experts who really bring that expertise. And so hiring people who have spent time in the battery industry, well before electric vehicles were the focus or our software team is led by people from Apple and Meta, Amazon, Microsoft, Google. And the thing that was interesting about that is we were able to track that talent because they want to be part of this industry and what a great American company like General Motors can do to lead going into our next 100 years. So it's been fun, but then what I think the key has been is marrying that knowledge and that expertise from the outside in with the people who know how to do great vehicles, really well, deeply integrated, beautifully designed. And so it's really been integrating the new, people with new skill sets to people with the skill sets you really need to put great cars, trucks and crossovers on the road. And that's something that's been really fun to see happen and to get the teams to work well together. >> Yeah, I would say that'd be a heck of a challenge as you basically have the legacy members of GM that know the business so well. You bring in all these new people. What is the single biggest thing you've done to integrate people with such different backgrounds? >> Well, I think first of all is making sure everybody got to know each other and spending time with each other because it's hard to dislike someone when you get to know them. It's easy when it's that person way over there, the person on the West Coast, not in Detroit. So a lot of it's been spending time together getting to know each other, but then making sure, I think there's been a healthy respect going both ways of, well, this software and the way you do it is really make it our vehicles better. And oh my gosh, I didn't realize how complex it was to put a great vehicle on the road. So I think a core tenant is getting the teams together and then they really respect the work of the other individual and learn we're only gonna win if we work together. So there were some bumpy spots there that we had to work through, but we made it very clear and we were gonna change or we weren't going to win. And I think the great leaders rose to the occasion. >> Absolutely. And I can't wait to hear how you are leading the GM, but first I wanna take you back. What's the story from your childhood that you think really shaped the kind of leader you are today? >> Well, I think both of my parents were born and raised during the oppression. And so they understood the, I think the value of hard work and the importance of work, but my mother especially also believed in the American dream. So she believed if you worked hard, you could do and be anything you wanted to be. And I think that stuck with me, but it's this you work before you play. It matters the quality of work and wanting to work harder than the next person and be that go-to person for your boss, et cetera. So I think it's the power of hard work. >> I understand that your father worked at GEM. You just mentioned that. What kind of impression did that leave on you growing up? Just his upbringing in GM? >> Well, I mean, I think one, it was something he was very proud of the work he did and he showed him. He worked very hard. He was able to raise our family and it was a great childhood that I had, my brother and I. And so I think he was very proud of what he was able to accomplish, but also then every now and then he talked about the vehicle he was working on or he'd get to bring a vehicle home. And the whole neighborhood would come over to see that vehicle. And as kids, we climb through it and look at every inch of it. And I think that kind of was that made the industry kind of a part of just who I am. >> And you've been in this industry since you've been 18 years old. What is it about the company that's kept you with it all these years? People move around so much anyway, but you've had tremendous continuity and grown from within. What's been the glue that's kept you there? >> I think early in my career, I just had so many opportunities. I mean, General Motors sent me to Stanford to get my MBA. I worked in an assembly plan. I had overseas opportunities to work with our teams overseas as we were globalizing. And I got to work in many different functions. I think what that taught me though, is there's so many great people at GM who work hard and really care, call it that Detroit grit that the team has and I realized how talented people were. And so that as I was going as we were going through the rough times like the bankruptcy, I knew this company had great people and we could do great vehicles. And I wanted to be a part of that. Never thinking I would have the opportunity to be CEO. And when I did and then we had to work through some of the challenges, whether it was the very devastating ignition switch recall, but we really learned and drove culture change because of that. And then managing through COVID and the semiconductor challenge and currently all the challenges we face today, I think what keeps me here is one, it's an exciting industry. I mean, we get to be such a special part of people's lives. I get letters from people. Sometimes telling me they're not happy and we take care of those, but you wouldn't believe the letters I get from people telling me they've named their vehicle and their vehicle's a part of their life that they've taken them through thick and thin. And I think it's the excitement of the industry and then being a part of this transformation that's happening right now, when in an industry, do you get to be a part of so much transformation and really shape what the company's gonna be? That's what excites me and motivates me every day. - Yeah, and I wanted to get more into that, but the fact is that you started out at 18 and you ended up becoming the CEO, you had a lot of different jobs. What advice can you give the people coming up on terms of how they can really differentiate themselves and move up the ladder, particularly in a corporation? - You know, so often I see people who are very talented and very smart, but are more focused on their next job than they are on the one they're in. And I always say, do the job like you're gonna do it for the rest of your life. Because then you own it. You're not kind of passing through, it's like a vehicle who washes a rental car. And so own your job and make structural changes to it, build the network you need to be more effective and to do your job better. And I think those are the people that get noticed and then get the opportunity. And then I would also say, be in an industry where you love the product. I mean, not every day is gonna be fun of going out to the proving ground and driving cars or walking through design. But if you love the industry and love the challenge that it brings, I think you're gonna do a better job as well. - You know, Mary, you obviously have such a passion for the industry and an infectious energy about you. When you were moving up at GM, can you tell us a story of where you kind of differentiated yourself as a leader where people really saw that you had the capability to do more than your job, but really, really lead people? - Well, I think it started, David. When I first started in the corporation, I was pretty shy. And so I wouldn't speak up always. And then I'd be in a meeting and I'd be thinking something, but I did say it. And then somebody else eventually would say it or it wouldn't get said. And one of the things I learned and I got great advice from a person, I had many mentors at GM, but one of the mentors said, you know, Mary, no one knows what you're thinking if you don't speak up. So don't be afraid to speak it, if you're wrong. That's advice I give people joining the company today. But I think it's once I got that confidence to speak up. And then I think what differentiated me is I would go the extra mile. And I was working to make sure I didn't understand just my piece of it, but the whole business. And I think having that perspective and really looking much broader than just my sole responsibility was how I distinguished myself in those early days. - Tell me a story about when you found out you were gonna become the CEO. - I understood I was in consideration. And then my predecessor, unfortunately, his wife was diagnosed with an illness and the whole timeline was shortened dramatically. The whole board was at a hotel and we were having our meeting there and they pulled me in and told me, you know, I was gonna be CEO and I'm like, you know, oh my gosh. And then I had to go right into the board room and I didn't get a chance to tell my husband. And so I was just dying that whole time to be able to text my husband and say, oh my gosh, I was selected. As soon as I was done, that was the first thing I did and got home later that night. And obviously I could tell no one, but we went and had a, just the two of us had a dinner to celebrate very quietly. And I'll remember that phone call and that dinner for the rest of my life. - Makes sense. And being the CEO, was this something you really sought out? - Well, you know, through my career, I always was looking for ways that I continue to grow and advance and I think I like leading people. I'd like to understand what makes people tick and how do you motivate them to do and be their very best? How do you provide that environment? So when I never had really thought about it, 'cause you know, frankly, at that time, I was running product development, which is probably one of the best jobs in the company. And so when I understood I was being considered for it, you know, I thought about it, but then I did. I wanted, I aspired to work hard to be able to achieve the role. So it wasn't something I planned for my whole career, but once I knew I was in the running, of course, I worked hard and tried to distinguish myself and was fortunate enough to be selected. - Now Mary, you're the CEO, but you were the very first female CEO of a major global automaker. Did that bring a lot of extra pressure to you? I have to imagine it did. - You know, it did because so often people would say, Mary, you're the first woman CEO of an automotive company. And I'm like, well, there's no question there. I'm like, yes, that's true. And I had to realize, because again, my mother taught me that if I worked hard, I could do and be anything. So what I didn't realize, there's a lot of young people, and especially little girls who, if they didn't see someone, they didn't think they could be, you know, it's like I cannot be what I cannot see. And that's just not the way I was raised. So then I realized I had a really important role to help make sure women understood. Yes, you can achieve these kinds of jobs. And I also am passionate about STEM. And so helping young ladies, young girls in elementary or middle school, study hard in math, study hard in science, understand technology, because I think that technology is changing every industry. And so I've realized I had a greater responsibility to be that role model. So little girls would study and believe they could be engineers and move forward. - Hi everyone, it's Kula from Hal Eaters Lead. And if you're seeing my face right now, it means you're watching this interview on YouTube. I wanna say thanks. Thanks for watching it on YouTube. And if you love the show, subscribe to the channel so you never miss an episode. And if you like one of the episodes, let us know in the comments. I wanna just give a shout out to a couple of folks who have left some positive reviews. This guy says, you are a great podcaster, David, shout out David, you are a great podcaster. Someone else said, earn to subscribe to the channel. I listened from start to end. You guys, these conversations are incredible as you know. And if you love them, hit subscribe on our channel, leave a comment. If you love one of the episodes, it'll help us in our mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And we truly believe that better workplaces, better communities and a better world starts with better leaders. And when you help this podcast grow, it helps us do more of that. So subscribe to the channel, let us know if you love one of the shows, and we might even feature you in one of the episodes. So subscribe to the channel today and thank you so much for listening. - You're such an out and out leader. You're clearly a leader. I hesitated to even ask that question. And I was wondering, did you get tired of getting that question? - I did because I'd like to think I got the job because I was the best person for the job. So I did get tired of it. And that's because that's when the light bulb went on and said, look, this is an important role for me to model for all those little girls who didn't have my mom and their ear saying you could do and be everything. I grew to appreciate why the question was asked so often. - So you take over CEO in January of 2014 and welcome to the job because you're immediately thrust into this situation where you have to do a major product recall because of faulty ignition switch. Tell me how this tested your leadership. - Well, it was quite the challenge because again, most of the leadership team was in new positions. I'll never forget, I actually got the phone call as I was driving home, I was pulling into the garage and I actually sat in the car, was driving in an escalade, sat in the escalade, understood what was happening. And again, we were always got it like, we've got to do the right thing. The thing that a lot of people don't understand is when you have something like that that happens, you don't know everything. And so we started to meet every single day to understand and started our own internal investigation. We've learned that the root issue that was causing the problem was actually engineering that had been done over a decade before in the late 90s. We were the team that was going to deal with it. I think one of the things that most people didn't know, we were the ones who actually figured it out and self-reported that we knew what the problem was that then started the whole ignition switch case. But we just methodically did the right things. And we were guided by three principles. We were gonna be transparent. We were gonna do everything we could to protect the customer and we were gonna do everything in our power to make sure nothing like this ever happened again. And that's what guided us. We spoke a lot to the employees helping them understand because it became so public. I testified in front of Congress as something I probably would recommend not having to do especially when you have a problem. But I also knew when I was there, I was speaking to our employees and I wanted them to be proud of me is the way I represented the company. And so we just kept working through it. We made lasting change. One of the things I always said is, I always ask our team, I say, and this is all talk to all employees. I'll say, when is the best time to solve a problem? And they kind of look at me and I look like, the minute you know you have one because problems do not get smaller. And so we now are championing to this day, even though I would say almost 40% of our technical talent wasn't here when that happened. Once a year, we have a safety week and we start every meeting with the safety protocols and the safety message. But once a year we dedicate a whole week and we remind people for those employees that weren't even here when the ignition switch recall happened in 2014, what it was and why we do what we do and how we all have to be committed to making sure we solve problems early and we never let something like that happen again. So it was difficult, don't get me wrong. I think my team, 'cause I got through it as we work together as a team. And it was a, it was also just kind of something that's foundational for me right now. We're gonna do the right thing even when it's hard. And I think a lot of times when people have tough situations, I think they've got a decision to make. You don't. You have to do the right thing. You know, it was interesting because when that happened, I was at Young Brands and we, I brought my team together and we had crisis happen a lot of times around the world and we really studied what you did. And one of the things that we are most impressed with was that you took the blame for a lot of things that you didn't directly contribute to. Obviously the technology happened a decade before that caused the problem. You know, what's your view on a leader stepping up and taking responsibility like you did? Even for things that maybe you had nothing to do with. - Well, I think at the time I was the CEO, everything, it stops with me. But I also, I think it was so important to tell all our employees, "Hey, things are gonna happen outside of your control." If you're in the chair, you own them, you've got to fix them. We can't make excuses. We always have to be focused on the customer and doing the right thing for the customer. And it was my responsibility to fix what we needed to do. And that's why I'm so proud of the fact that we not only changed engineering processes, validation processes, our whole quality process and how we look at things, but we also, I think, drove culture change because it's easy to say, "This is what I believe in," or, "This is what we want the values of the company to be, when everything's going great." It's a lot harder to, but you have the opportunity in a crisis to demonstrate to your employees. We really mean it. And I think that was foundational for the entire company. They knew we meant it and we were right there with them. - So you really drove safety and made that a prominent driver of your culture. And as you look at your business today, what are you trying to put your stamp on now to make the culture even better? - Well, one is continuing the strong safety message. And that's why I said we start every meeting, we've expanded, it's not just product safety, but workplace safety and just psychological safety in the workplace, making sure people are in an environment where they can do their best work. So I think we've grown it and we're now working on, how power can we bring it back into the process to make sure we don't ever have a problem? And so we keep working backward from that. I would think that's something important. I think another thing I'm trying to drive into the company is the speed at which we need to move. This industry and every industry, technology is changing so quickly. And yesterday's winner aren't guaranteed that they'll be tomorrow's winners. So speed matters. I feel confident we have the right strategy, but can we execute it faster and better than our competition? Because that's what it's gonna take in this fast paced world we live in now. So safety is a foundation, culture of our companies, a foundation. But I think speed of how we innovate to serve the customer better than others is something we're really focused on right now. - Another thing that I know you're very focused on, or I read about is just you love building an organization of truth tellers. I mean, you're looking for the truth, no matter what it is, which is great. Do you have a fun story, or maybe it's not so fun story of where you got that kind of truth and it really helped the company? - Well, what we found actually one of our values is seek truth because in a company this big, what we found, and it was our president Mark Royce and I, we would found many times people would come in with a proposal, but if it was only a part of the organization, it wasn't an enterprise wide solution. And so, and then it would be like, we felt like we were somewhat playing whack about, but okay, well, yeah, I can solve that problem, but it creates this problem over here, and there's one over here and one over here. And so seek truth was really our message to the entire company from our individual contributors all the way to our vice presidents of give us enterprise solutions. Don't just give us something that optimizes your area, but it was that frustration of decisions coming to us that weren't the whole, I would say they weren't the whole truth 'cause they didn't look at it from an enterprise perspective. And that's something we still say today is, let's get to the truth. That what someone wants it to be, what is it? How can you demonstrate it with information, data and information so we can make the very best decision quickly? - You know, you have a company where you have nearly 170,000 team members around the world. And how do you give people a sense, no matter where they're at in the organization, that they count? - Well, I think part of it is our work to make sure that everybody feels valued. We do regular engagement. We benchmark our information across other industries and other companies. And then we hold our leadership and managers, leaders all the way up to my leadership team, the SLT. What are we doing to solve what our employees are telling us? And one of the things we actually had a double down on recently is with all the change that's happening in the industry, we weren't communicating enough to everyone. So now we've doubled down on communicating to our senior leaders, our leaders, but then doing more global tone halls where people can ask questions. The other thing we started doing that I think is really helped is after every quarterly earnings, the CFO and I, we do a global town hall where we literally make comments for one or two minutes and then we go into employee questions. And we talk about what they wanna talk about. We talk about what they're not clear on. And so that, and it's pushed out through the whole company. It's recorded for people who are in different time zones so they can watch it. And I think those have been effective ways to help get the whole company aligned. And then I really believe in, and this is something I started believing early in my career, if people feel like they're valued, listened to, and their work is respected, they're gonna do a better job because it's the, I don't care what you know until I know that you care. We really work on that part of engagement. So every single person understands what their responsibilities are but knows their work is respected. - And you've built a great track record for doing what you say. You consistently hit your earnings, great performance. What do you think is the best practice that you really drive as a leader that helps get the kind of consistent results that you've generated? - I think when it's teamwork, I can't tell you how many times, whether it was when we had a shutdown all over facilities with COVID that we got the team, a cross-functional team working, okay, what is it gonna take to get people back to work safely? When we got into the semi-conductor shortage, and we've literally never had we worried about it. There was always an excess of semi-conductors. All of a sudden, you couldn't get the semi-conductors that we needed. And again, it was a cross-functional team that started meeting on a daily basis, leadership met on a daily basis to help remove roadblocks, to help make priority decisions. So across the board, I think it's teamwork is what it's allowed us at, 'cause it can seem like a really difficult problem on your own, but when you get everybody together, all of a sudden they're like, well, I can do this and I can do this and okay, we can't make that, but we can make this. And I think it's that cross-functional teamwork of here's the challenge, how do we collectively? And I will tell you what the team comes up with, just amazes me of what they're able to, like, hey, look what we figured out we can do, again, to meet our financial commitments, as well as, and more importantly, serve the customer. - You know, one thing I love Mary is when people go public with big goals, and you've definitely done that. I mean, you've committed to being an all EV electric vehicle by 2035. Now, what have you seen happen inside the company planning your flag like that? And why would you come out and make such a bull statement like that? - Well, I think a couple things, and it's an interesting that you ask that now, in this era, I never thought the propulsion system necessarily in the vehicle would become political, but first of all, we'll always be guided by the customer. And so as we put our strategy forward, we are always going to do what is in the best interest and what the customer is guiding us to do. But when we did that several years ago now, there was too much debate in the company of if and when. EVs were going to be driving the industry. And I recognize in our senior leadership, we recognize we had to get people to stop debating and start working on what are the plans to make it true. And so when we put the proclamation that we plan to be all electric by 2035 for our light duty vehicles, it's stopped at the internal debate of if we should, and people got working on what would it take. Now we can always make adjustments, but if we're still arguing about when instead of figuring out what, it was just not a good place for the company to be. So that was one of the reasons that I was convinced it was the right thing to do, is to get the company from off of the debate and into the action phase. - A lot of times I would make some fairly big pronounces myself, and then we'd have a setback when you're chasing that kind of big goal. Can you tell me a story of maybe when you had a setback going after something this aggressive, and how you work it through with your team? - Well, I think with EVs a couple of years ago, and really in 23, we were all set, we had a lot of EVs plan to launch, and we realized the automation we were using to make modules, it wasn't working. We weren't able to get at rate. And this was something that was, I think, doubly hard for me, 'cause I grew up in manufacturing, so I'm like, what a minute, what do you mean? We can't build modules. And it turned out to be a pretty significant challenge. There was a whole host of reasons, but that was a setback where I had to explain to the street why we weren't getting the number of EVs out that we thought we were. Now, in the background, we were again, meeting on it, cross-functional team working on it, and within about eight months, we were able to solve the issue. But that was probably one of the most public pronouncements I'd made, that I had to walk it back, and again, the way we handled it is we told the truth. We said, look, it's not that our vehicles aren't ready. It's not that they're not right. It's not that we don't have the battery cells. We literally are having automation challenges with building modules for battery packs. So we were honest, it cost us, it hurt for almost a year, but we then, last year was a year of execution, and I couldn't be more proud of the team of how they executed, but it was painful. - Yeah, those times definitely are. But the honesty always proves to give you the credibility in the end. Just everything in this world where everything is so transparent, I used to, I have two grown children now, but when they were growing up, I always used to say the truth will set you free. It may not get you out of trouble, but it will be a lot better than if I find out you're not telling me the truth. So I'm a big believer the truth will set you free. - That's good advice, you know. And Tesla has obviously been the front runner in the US with the EVs, and what have you learned from watching them that's fueling your own innovation for growth? - Well, I think one of the things that, you know, again, very capable vehicles, it's a very impressive team with what they're able to do. But I think, you know, early on, when they came out with a vehicle that had over 300 miles of range, that was huge because others who had EVs out there, 300 miles became consumer of it. It's over 300, they felt confident for most of the time that they could, they'd get to where they needed to be and they didn't have charging anxiety. And so they really set the standard there. What they've done with their charging network was very impressive as well. I was happy that we were able to work with Tesla and open up the charging network to GM vehicles as well. They've done a very capable vehicle that is competition that we have to understand and work hard to surpass. - Despite the fact you've had consistent results and such an impressive track record, it seems like everybody predicts the demise of the US auto makers, you know. You've been the best among all of them, but what do you say to everybody that says, hey, GM's, they're on the way out. It's just not gonna happen. They're not changing fast enough. I mean, obviously you're kind of have a lot going on these days. - Well, one is we show them our product portfolio, whether it's our internal combustion engine or our EV vehicles and they keep winning awards and we're growing share both in our, what we call ICE internal combustion and our EVs. And so we're gonna continue to do that. We're gonna continue to put points on the board from an earnings perspective. - And but demonstrate that, you know, we are different. I mean, one of the South side analysts, you know, it said, you know, we're the best house in a bad neighborhood. And so I've used that with the team. I said, okay, we gotta move neighborhoods 'cause we got a good house. So now let's focus on getting people to understand we're in a different neighborhood. Product is what will help us get there. I mean, at the end of the day, this is, as I said before, this is such an important purchase for most people. We've gotta make sure we have the best product from a design, beautifully designed from range of performance, from functionality, et cetera. And if we continue to execute and have great products, we'll win and people will recognize that we are gonna be around and we're gonna lead. - And you have a great manufacturing background, you said. And then when you became CEO, you were ahead of product development. How did you pick up your marketing skills and your customer focus, which you've gotta have. I mean, if you're not customer centric, you're gonna die. I mean, was this in the wood to begin with or is this something you had to develop? - Well, I think it really was helpful. When I was in manufacturing, it was all about quality because I wanted to make sure the vehicles we built were the highest of quality. So customers didn't have issues. In product development, now we have all the chief engineers who are deciding, what is this product gonna be? We start with a blank piece of paper and have to make all the decisions. What's the design? What's the functionality? What's the space in the backseat? The legroom. Every dimension of a vehicle, you start with and you have to define. And that's where we really learned, I learned, just how much work we had to do to really understand the customer for a Corvette versus a heavy duty truck versus an Equinox. And so that was very helpful. And I would say in the marketing side, I'm still a student, but I have to say we have great marketing team led by Norm DeGrave, who has really brought a lot to our team and taught me a lot about marketing. So I think as a CEO, you can never have sad in every chair. So you've got to be curious and be a learner even when you're the CEO. - And one thing that every company as to Russell with is just the risk of becoming too insular. How do you keep your company, keep GM externally focused? Not only on the customer, but everything else that's going on around the world. - Well, I think it gets to bringing in talent from outside the industry. So they bring different industry's perspective as one. I think regularly looking at our competitors' products to understand where they're headed. Obviously, we monitor everything. We have a team on competitive intelligence, understanding what's happening around the world. And then focused on where are the trends? I realized in 2015 that our industry was changing. And whether it was the way the vehicle was propelled, the way software was changing it, the way autonomy was changing it. And so we regularly, in those early years, spent time in Silicon Valley, meeting with the different tech companies and Stanford just to understand. So I think you have to force yourself because I think being insular was one of the things that hurt general motors. They went from the success of the '50s and '60s. And I think they stopped looking outside, which I think any company that stops really looking at what's happening does it at their own risk. And then especially with how quickly technology is moving and changing everything we do, you have to stay just actively looking to learn and understand how you can make your own business better. - We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Mary Bear in just a moment. Well, Master's Week is here. And it's the perfect excuse to check out my conversation with the Golden Bear himself, Jack Nicholas. When I asked Jack what made him so consistently successful in his golf game over the years, he didn't talk about the talent or the skill that he had. He talked about the power of preparation. - First of all, I think being prepared is probably the most important thing in any walk of life. You can't walk into a business meeting. You can't walk into anything else, a sales or anything if you're not prepared. And I prided myself on being prepared to play when I was ready to play, it wasn't a play. And so as I went into each of those majors, I really geared myself early in the year for the Masters. And I practiced on courses that I thought were courses that would help me for a guest then. And so when I got to a guest, I was ready to play a guest. And so being prepared, being ready, and being focused on those events were something that I really prided myself on. And if you're not prepared, you're not gonna perform. - Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Jack episode 21 here on How Leaders Lead. One of the things I enjoy most about having conversations like this is I always learn when I do them. And one of the things that I've learned is I've learned about you is this concept called ambidextrous leadership. Say more. - Ambidextrous leadership is, how do I manage for today and manage and look over the horizon for tomorrow? And you have to be an ambidextrous leader to manage today while setting the strategy for tomorrow. Otherwise you might perfect today, but it's irrelevant for where the industry and the world is going. So that's been a really helpful concept to have and our leaders have embraced it. - How do you manage your own time with that in mind? What does an ambidextrous calendar look like for you? - Well, I try to spend more of my time on strategy, although if we're having issues, I'll dig deep. I think it's the engineer in me. I really like to look and I don't manage it on a day or a week basis, but I do go back every now and then and look at how much time have I spent on what's for the future of the company versus the problems of today? We do that with our board as well, making sure that most of the board is focused on what's in the future and how do we get all the insights, all the expertise on our board has to make sure we're making the right strategic decision. So I think it's my job to really force the organization to do that and to have the right leaders one in two and three levels below that can manage the day to day and in their area be looking at what do they need to be aware of to make their area better? How is technology changing it, et cetera? - You know, as a leader, Mary, how are you going about just sharpening your own acts and getting better and better as a leader? What are you working on these days? - Well, I would say I'm working on making sure I understand AI and just using the tools in my daily life, spending time with our team. We just did a session at the end of last week with one of our tech leaders, our whole leadership team, we spend over an hour understanding what the hype is versus what's real, but even we're learning how you can create an app with not ever touching the keyboard. So I think it's, for me, I think because I'm an engineer, I have to do it to understand it. And then I would also say, just reading of everything that's happening around the world is so important to stay up on trends on business around the globe. - You know, Mary, this has been so much fun and now I wanna have my traditional round of lightning round questions here. Are you ready for this? - I'm ready. - Okay. The three words that best describe you. - Fair, optimistic and driven. - If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? - Maybe Taylor Swift. My daughter's a big Taylor Swift fan and she's made me a, I'm a Swiftie. - Me, our family is too. What's your biggest pet peeve? - When people don't tell the truth. - Who would play you in a movie? - One of my favorite actresses is Jennifer Aniston. So she's younger than me, so probably not, but why not? (laughs) - Okay. Oh, why not? Have you ever named one of your vehicles? - Yes, our kids actually did. When they were growing up, we had Tim Batahou. - Fantastic. Name a car you're building at GM that everyone should test drive. - Oh, there's so many, David. That's so unfair. They should get in, let me give you a couple. An Equinox EV, Chevrolet Track, the Lyric. Those are just a few. Like I said, I could go on and on because having run product development, every product has a special place in my heart. - I knew it was unfair question, but I asked it anyway. What's something that only the CEO of GM knows about GM? - I think unfortunately it's a best kept secret of how talented our people are. I think people look and they think we're old when I tell them over 40% of our technical talent has been with the company less than five, four or five years. They kind of look at me with this shock. So the capability of the team. - Fantastic. What makes Detroit so special? - You know, it's a grit that I talked about. It's a sports town. It's a, I was just at a Red Wings game yesterday. It's just a town where people work hard and I don't know, maybe it's the winters we go through, but there's this grit in Detroit that we're gonna get through things and we're going to work hard. And it's also a city in the Midwest. So we're nice, but we work hard and we're determined. - What's the one thing you do just for you? - I love to shop. - Besides your family, what's your most prized possession? - Well, my dog is part of my family. So my family is everything. I have two grown children. I have a husband that will celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary this year and my dog hunter is pretty special. But, you know, I can't think of, once you have your family, I guess my health. You have your family and you have your health. You kind of have, you have a lot. - If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? - Country music probably. - You and me both. What's something about you few people would know? - I'm not the most coordinated person. - What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss? - I need iced tea in the morning. It used to be Diet Coke a long time ago. I switched to iced tea, but I need that iced tea in the morning. - All right, Mary, we're out of that lightning round. Great job. Just a few more questions if we'll wrap this up. You know, GM has always been a very innovative company and thinker. You know, I guess in, I read where in your articles of incorporation, 115 years ago, you talked about electric vehicles and even flying vehicles. So it really is in your DNA. How are you thinking about the environment that's gonna empower people to have that kind of innovation? You know, let's say 100 years from now, when they look back at 2025, they say, "Oh, look what they did that." - Well, I think it's really engaging. I think a lot of people think somebody else is gonna innovate, I'm just gonna do my job. And it's really getting every person to understand that they can innovate. One of my coolest stories about General Motors is one of the innovations with Cadillac, way back when is they invented the electric starter? And why did they do it? Because before an electric starter, the way you started a vehicle is you cranked it. It was a crank turn. I'm told that's where the term cranky came from because it was hard. People would break their arms doing it. Women and people of small stature had a hard time doing it. And so General Motors was so customer focused, they said, "Okay, how do we solve this?" The electric starter. I tell that story just because think about how it's such a customer facing, but such an innovative of we're gonna solve the things that the customer finds the least or the most challenging with our vehicle or the thing they dislike the most. And we're gonna solve it. Everyone, every engineer, every single person in the company can be thinking along those lines. And so we try to drive innovation everywhere into the company. - You know, as a CEO, you're also a mom and you've mentioned your family really being your most prized possession. How have you integrated the two over the years? - Well, I'm really proud of the fact that, you know, there were times where when the kids were little, you know, I'd take the breaks so we could have family dinner together and they'd go to bed and I'd start working again. Sometimes did crazy things on my schedule to make that cross country meet or that hockey game or that soccer match because, and my kids knew I was there. And so, you know, what I encourage people to do is that period of time, you think it's gonna go on forever, but it doesn't. And when your kids graduate from high school, unless they're playing, you know, college sports, that phase is over. So there's moments that you shouldn't miss and only you can prioritize for yourself 'cause only you know what's important. I chose what was important to me, but that was an excuse to not get my work done and to excel. But sometimes it took a lot of creativity. And I think my kids know that and they're proud of me for it and they're proud of what I've accomplished. - And you're celebrating your 40th wedding anniversary. What do you think makes a partnership work like that? What has gotta happen to be able to have that kind of an enduring relationship? - Well, I think we're best friends. I mean, I wanna be around my husband and I think he wants to be around me, but we enjoy spending time together. We debate, but I would also say he's my rock and he's also the person every now and then holds up the mirror to me and says, "Mary, come on." So I mean, after 40 years, we grew up together, we got married right out of college, but I think there's so many dimensions of our relationship for which I'm grateful because there's no bigger supporter in my life than my husband. - What do you see now as you look forward as your unfinished business? - Well, I think, you know, we're still in the middle of this transformation of not only propulsion system, but software and autonomy. And, you know, the work will always be innovating and continuing, so I can't say when the work is done, but I wanna make sure we're on this kind of irreversible path for existing for the next hundred years, and then also making sure I'm developing the next gen, so they're gonna do even more amazing things. That's my hope. - And last question for you. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? - Get to know your people, care about them, and give them feedback. Feedback is a gift. A lot of times what I've seen, you know, you get somebody who thinks they're doing a great job. They haven't been given feedback to know how they could have been better. If you don't give someone feedback, how do they know what, you know, what you think they're missing? So, care about your people, give them feedback so they can be there very best. - Well, Mary, I can only imagine what's been going on in your day, and the fact that you took an hour out with me, I can't thank you enough, I appreciate it. You know, you are the real deal, you're a real leader. You know, you have every characteristic that it takes to get people to be inspired by you and the confidence that you bring to the party. So, thank you so much for taking time to be with me. - Well, I knew I was gonna enjoy this conversation and the hour flew by. So, David, thank you so very, very much for what you're doing and giving back for everybody who can listen to your podcast, which I think is phenomenal. Thank you. - One thing that really stands out to me about Mary is how she leads with such curiosity and candor. She's not afraid of the hard truth. Heck, she goes looking for them, she's hunting them down. When you invite truth into the room and when you reward your people for bringing it, you create more alignment, you build more trust and ultimately you always get better outcomes. Great leaders seek the whole truth, even when it's uncomfortable or inconvenient. That's how you avoid the bad decisions that happen when wishful thinking or turf wars take over. So with that in mind, here's something to try this week. In your next meeting or decision, ask this simple question. Are we looking at the full picture? Are we seeking the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth? Encourage your team to bring that intellectual and honesty to the table, even when it isn't convenient because Mary's absolutely right when she says, "The truth, the truth will set you free." So do you wanna know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders seek the truth. Coming up next on "How leaders lead" is Dave Mackay, president and CEO of RBC. That's the Royal Bank of Canada. - I see leaders who wanna take a risk but keep it quiet. I don't want anyone to see and if I'm successful, I'll tell you about it the day, but then it's hard to marshal resource and excitement and organization if you don't declare yourself. - So be sure to subscribe to YouTube or wherever you go to get your podcast so you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of "How leaders lead" where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you'll become the best leader that you can be.