[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1270/the-power-of-aspirational-market-positioning","id",1270,"title","The power of aspirational market positioning","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.460\nI tell you it was an orientation again,\n\n2\n00:00:02.460 --> 00:00:06.660\ngoing back to 2011, 2012 when I was starting the companies\n\n3\n00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:08.540\nthat I believed that the company\n\n4\n00:00:08.540 --> 00:00:11.380\nthat would ultimately own health monitoring\n\n5\n00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:16.060\nwould grow up to look a lot more like Nike than IBM.\n\n6\n00:00:16.060 --> 00:00:18.060\nYou know, I thought that health monitoring\n\n7\n00:00:18.060 --> 00:00:22.980\nneeded to be cool, to be a mass market adopted thing.\n\n8\n00:00:22.980 --> 00:00:25.860\nAnd, you know, health monitors historically\n\n9\n00:00:25.860 --> 00:00:28.300\nhave kind of had a stigma associated with them.\n\n10\n00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:29.940\nOr if you see someone wearing a health monitor,\n\n11\n00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:32.300\nit's almost like there's something wrong with them.\n\n12\n00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:34.980\nAnd I wanted to develop a health monitor\n\n13\n00:00:34.980 --> 00:00:37.380\nthat was aspirational.\n\n14\n00:00:37.380 --> 00:00:39.700\nYou know, the same way putting on a pair of Air Jordans\n\n15\n00:00:39.700 --> 00:00:43.740\nis aspirational and says something positive about you.\n\n16\n00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:46.180\nThat's how we wanted people to feel when they wear a woop.\n\n17\n00:00:46.180 --> 00:00:48.740\nSo although woop the product today\n\n18\n00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:51.020\nis really something that's helping anyone\n\n19\n00:00:51.020 --> 00:00:53.900\nunderstand their bodies, we'll always have this anchoring\n\n20\n00:00:53.900 --> 00:00:56.300\nin sports and athletics and performance\n\n21\n00:00:56.300 --> 00:00:59.020\nbecause it creates that aspirational feeling.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",2028280,"end_time",2086659,"keywords","Marketing, positioning, branding, aspirational, nike, Michael Jordan, fitness, health, whoop, entrepreneur, entrepreneurship","slug","the-power-of-aspirational-market-positioning","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","Ohq11d9D81rJ9c7a1L2rvVp3BlQdDCzi4vZO2aOXY6Y","mux_asset_id","h1e6TgO5GmjhvteUsA13lyqaAr68PWnU3nR13uY02GYs","leader_id",77,"episode_id",226,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:40:15.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1270/the-power-of-aspirational-market-positioning","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_101":102,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_25":107,"_108":109,"_62":110,"_59":110,"_111":112,"_69":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_89":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_93":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":-5,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":-5,"_89":-5,"_46":-5,"_90":91,"_92":-5,"_93":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Prioritize the Right Data","prioritize-the-right-data","David and Will talk about improving athletics by tracking sleep, managing a complex business with steady vision and delegation, and how to “Growtain” customers.","summary","

Today's guest is Will Ahmed, the Founder and CEO of WHOOP, a wearable fitness tracker that measures a few key metrics to help top athletes and everyday consumers achieve peak performance. You're going to learn that Will is an incredibly sharp young leader. Believe it or not, he's in his early 30s, running a company that was recently valued at $3.6 billion. Running a company at that level requires a whole other level of discipline, when it comes to focusing in on what truly matters. If you want to keep your business healthy, no matter what size a company you lead, it's imperative that you measure and keep your eyes on a few vital metrics at all times.

You're going to learn:

How problems with athletic overtraining led to a company that helps monitor sleep
The hidden side of sleep and the WHOOP tracker
How WHOOP can compete with the Apple Watch
How simple metrics lead to better decision-making
How Will went from student athlete to company builder
How Will maintains steady focus through delegation and meditation
Why the WHOOP business model emulates Peloton instead of FitBit
How to “Growtain” your customers
How to be excellent in multiple complication industries at once
How WHOOP built promotion partnerships with top athletes and sports networks
How to find and develop people who are high intensity AND high humility
Why WHOOP pays its employees to sleep
PLUS Will’s best advice for entrepreneurs

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The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

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","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.530\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:08.530 --> 00:00:09.280\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:09.280 --> 00:00:11.240\nof the best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:15.110\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:15.110 --> 00:00:15.760\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:15.760 --> 00:00:20.160\nsimple that you can apply and develop into being a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.760\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:27.690\nNow today's guest is Will Ahmed, the founder and CEO of Woop, a wearable\n\n9\n00:00:27.690 --> 00:00:28.940\nfitness tracker\n\n10\n00:00:28.940 --> 00:00:33.000\nthat measures a few key metrics to help top athletes.\n\n11\n00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:36.400\nAnd even guys like me achieve peak performance.\n\n12\n00:00:36.400 --> 00:00:40.940\nNow I'm a big fan of this company and in fact, I'm wearing my Woop this very\n\n13\n00:00:40.940 --> 00:00:41.560\nsecond.\n\n14\n00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:45.560\nAnd you're going to learn that Will is an incredibly sharp young leader.\n\n15\n00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:50.340\nBelieve it or not, he's in his early 30s running a company that was recently\n\n16\n00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:52.600\nvalued at $3.6\n\n17\n00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:54.360\nbillion.\n\n18\n00:00:54.360 --> 00:00:58.660\nNow running a company at that level requires a whole other level of discipline\n\n19\n00:00:58.660 --> 00:00:59.140\nwhen it\n\n20\n00:00:59.140 --> 00:01:02.660\ncomes to focusing in on what truly matters.\n\n21\n00:01:02.660 --> 00:01:06.730\nIf you want to keep your business healthy, no matter what size a company you\n\n22\n00:01:06.730 --> 00:01:07.380\nlead, it's\n\n23\n00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:13.180\nimperative that you measure and keep your eyes on a few vital metrics at all\n\n24\n00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:14.020\ntimes.\n\n25\n00:01:14.020 --> 00:01:19.160\nNow it's so easy to get head faked by all the data that's out there, all the\n\n26\n00:01:19.160 --> 00:01:19.820\nideas,\n\n27\n00:01:19.820 --> 00:01:23.960\nall the feedback that gets thrown to you from every direction.\n\n28\n00:01:23.960 --> 00:01:27.260\nThe effective leaders I know stay focused.\n\n29\n00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:31.050\nThey know what to measure, what will have the greatest impact on the business\n\n30\n00:01:31.050 --> 00:01:31.400\nand they\n\n31\n00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.920\nmake their decisions based off of those metrics.\n\n32\n00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:39.080\nThe fact that Will has already mastered this skill at such an early age is\n\n33\n00:01:39.080 --> 00:01:40.840\nreally impressive.\n\n34\n00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.260\nSome leaders never get it.\n\n35\n00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:47.830\nSo here we are on the first episode of 2022 and you're about to get some\n\n36\n00:01:47.830 --> 00:01:48.780\ninsights that\n\n37\n00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:53.060\nI know will help you get this year off to a great start.\n\n38\n00:01:53.060 --> 00:01:54.640\nSo let's get right to it.\n\n39\n00:01:54.640 --> 00:02:05.960\nHere's my conversation with my new friend and soon to be yours, Will Ahmed.\n\n40\n00:02:05.960 --> 00:02:09.240\nWill thanks so much for just taking the time to be with us today.\n\n41\n00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:10.240\nThanks for having me, David.\n\n42\n00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.440\nYou know, the last time I met you, we were at Shinnecock and you were driving\n\n43\n00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:13.880\nthe ball\n\n44\n00:02:13.880 --> 00:02:15.720\nwell over 300 yards.\n\n45\n00:02:15.720 --> 00:02:17.280\nI mean, you're an animal.\n\n46\n00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.120\nThat was a good day.\n\n47\n00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.440\nYeah, I would say so.\n\n48\n00:02:21.440 --> 00:02:24.890\nBut I told you about my mission, which is to make the world a better place by\n\n49\n00:02:24.890 --> 00:02:25.540\ndeveloping\n\n50\n00:02:25.540 --> 00:02:26.540\nbetter leaders.\n\n51\n00:02:26.540 --> 00:02:29.020\nTell us a little bit about Woop and the mission that you're on.\n\n52\n00:02:29.020 --> 00:02:33.280\nYeah, our mission at Woop is to unlock human performance, which is to say that\n\n53\n00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:33.940\nwe believe\n\n54\n00:02:33.940 --> 00:02:38.490\nevery individual has an inner potential that you can tap into if you can better\n\n55\n00:02:38.490 --> 00:02:39.260\nunderstand\n\n56\n00:02:39.260 --> 00:02:41.900\ntheir bodies.\n\n57\n00:02:41.900 --> 00:02:47.090\nAnd we've built wearable technology that measures everything around sleep and\n\n58\n00:02:47.090 --> 00:02:47.980\nrecovery and\n\n59\n00:02:47.980 --> 00:02:54.700\nstrain and gives people information that they can use to improve their health.\n\n60\n00:02:54.700 --> 00:02:58.540\nSo I got into this space about 10, 12 years ago.\n\n61\n00:02:58.540 --> 00:03:01.540\nI was personally, I was into sports and exercise, David.\n\n62\n00:03:01.540 --> 00:03:05.390\nSo I grew up playing about a dozen different sports and I ended up playing\n\n63\n00:03:05.390 --> 00:03:06.140\nsquash while\n\n64\n00:03:06.140 --> 00:03:07.300\nI was at Harvard.\n\n65\n00:03:07.300 --> 00:03:12.290\nAnd my experience of being a college athlete, you know, led me down this rabbit\n\n66\n00:03:12.290 --> 00:03:12.820\nhole of\n\n67\n00:03:12.820 --> 00:03:16.980\ntrying to understand physiology and performance and training.\n\n68\n00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:20.540\nI was someone who used to over train as a college athlete and I got very\n\n69\n00:03:20.540 --> 00:03:21.620\ninterested in\n\n70\n00:03:21.620 --> 00:03:25.620\nwhat you could measure about the body to predict over training or, you know,\n\n71\n00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:26.100\npredict\n\n72\n00:03:26.100 --> 00:03:27.100\nunder training.\n\n73\n00:03:27.100 --> 00:03:29.380\nWhy do some athletes get injured and others don't?\n\n74\n00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:32.140\nWhat does it mean to peak on a given day?\n\n75\n00:03:32.140 --> 00:03:35.020\nThese were just questions that I was asking myself as a student at Harvard.\n\n76\n00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:39.450\nAnd I read something like 500 medical papers while I was in school and wrote a\n\n77\n00:03:39.450 --> 00:03:40.260\npaper around\n\n78\n00:03:40.260 --> 00:03:43.060\nhow to continuously measure the human body.\n\n79\n00:03:43.060 --> 00:03:46.340\nThat work really became the foundation for Woop.\n\n80\n00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:49.570\nAnd in the last 10 years, we've gone from working with the best athletes in the\n\n81\n00:03:49.570 --> 00:03:49.860\nworld\n\n82\n00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:52.140\nto now working with everyday consumers.\n\n83\n00:03:52.140 --> 00:03:55.000\nWell, I don't know if I'm one of the best athletes in the world, but I am an\n\n84\n00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:55.580\neveryday\n\n85\n00:03:55.580 --> 00:03:59.820\nconsumer and I got to tell you something that, you know, I'm a big testimonial\n\n86\n00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:00.820\nfor your product.\n\n87\n00:04:00.820 --> 00:04:05.420\nAnd Egon Durbin, who's a good friend of mine and he's the co-CEO of Silver Lake\n\n88\n00:04:05.420 --> 00:04:05.780\n, you know,\n\n89\n00:04:05.780 --> 00:04:09.320\nI was telling him that I was really having a hard time sleeping in particular,\n\n90\n00:04:09.320 --> 00:04:09.740\nbut, you\n\n91\n00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:11.620\nknow, before big golf events.\n\n92\n00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:13.820\nAnd he said, you know, I can take care of this.\n\n93\n00:04:13.820 --> 00:04:19.340\nSo the next thing I shows up at my door, I now have my Woop wearable.\n\n94\n00:04:19.340 --> 00:04:20.340\nOkay.\n\n95\n00:04:20.340 --> 00:04:24.200\nAnd he also sent me this Euler cooler pad that I put on my bed to make, you\n\n96\n00:04:24.200 --> 00:04:25.140\nknow, to have\n\n97\n00:04:25.140 --> 00:04:29.260\nmy bed be cooler and because you recommend, you know, sleeping in cool rooms.\n\n98\n00:04:29.260 --> 00:04:30.260\nFor sure.\n\n99\n00:04:30.260 --> 00:04:34.880\nI've gone through basically averaging about five hours of sleep to over eight\n\n100\n00:04:34.880 --> 00:04:35.420\nhours and\n\n101\n00:04:35.420 --> 00:04:37.780\nbeing in full recovery mode.\n\n102\n00:04:37.780 --> 00:04:42.120\nAnd you know, I can't tell you how much it has really changed my life for the\n\n103\n00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:42.780\nbetter.\n\n104\n00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:47.650\nI just got my monthly report from Woop and, you know, everything that should be\n\n105\n00:04:47.650 --> 00:04:48.100\ndoing\n\n106\n00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:50.020\nwell is doing well.\n\n107\n00:04:50.020 --> 00:04:51.500\nSo thank you very much.\n\n108\n00:04:51.500 --> 00:04:53.620\nWell, it never gets old to hear stories like that.\n\n109\n00:04:53.620 --> 00:04:55.140\nYou really are a good testimonial.\n\n110\n00:04:55.140 --> 00:04:58.700\nFive hours to eight hours, that's like a life changing amount of sleep.\n\n111\n00:04:58.700 --> 00:04:59.700\nAbsolutely.\n\n112\n00:04:59.700 --> 00:05:01.180\nAnd, you know, sleep is something that we all do.\n\n113\n00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:04.910\nSo I just wanted to ask you something, you know, how should we think about\n\n114\n00:05:04.910 --> 00:05:05.620\nsleep as a\n\n115\n00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:06.700\ntypical consumer?\n\n116\n00:05:06.700 --> 00:05:10.460\nWell, I think sleep is pretty misunderstood.\n\n117\n00:05:10.460 --> 00:05:14.470\nYou know, if you ask someone who doesn't measure their sleep, how many hours of\n\n118\n00:05:14.470 --> 00:05:14.940\nsleep they\n\n119\n00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:18.440\ngot last night, what they'll probably do is they'll say, okay, well, I went to\n\n120\n00:05:18.440 --> 00:05:18.860\nbed at\n\n121\n00:05:18.860 --> 00:05:20.420\n11 and I woke up at six.\n\n122\n00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:22.820\nSo I got seven hours of sleep.\n\n123\n00:05:22.820 --> 00:05:26.070\nAnd the problem with that math, as you know, David, is it just means that\n\n124\n00:05:26.070 --> 00:05:26.780\nperson spent\n\n125\n00:05:26.780 --> 00:05:28.740\nseven hours in bed.\n\n126\n00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:32.280\nAnd the question is within that seven hours, how much time did they spend\n\n127\n00:05:32.280 --> 00:05:33.100\ngetting quality\n\n128\n00:05:33.100 --> 00:05:34.100\nsleep?\n\n129\n00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:38.040\nNow sleep staging can be periods of time when you're awake, periods of time\n\n130\n00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:38.740\nwhen you're\n\n131\n00:05:38.740 --> 00:05:42.800\nin light sleep, periods of time in REM sleep and periods of time in slow wave\n\n132\n00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:43.380\nsleep.\n\n133\n00:05:43.380 --> 00:05:48.180\nAwakened light, you don't really get any value for those don't do much for you.\n\n134\n00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:52.260\nWhereas REM and slow wave, that's where really all the magic happens.\n\n135\n00:05:52.260 --> 00:05:54.700\nREM sleep is when your mind is repairing.\n\n136\n00:05:54.700 --> 00:05:57.460\nSo that's when you go into a deep dreaming state.\n\n137\n00:05:57.460 --> 00:05:59.460\nYou know, if you're someone who never has dreams, maybe you're not getting\n\n138\n00:05:59.460 --> 00:06:00.060\nenough REM\n\n139\n00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:01.300\nsleep.\n\n140\n00:06:01.300 --> 00:06:05.140\nSlow wave sleep is when your body produces about 95% of its human growth\n\n141\n00:06:05.140 --> 00:06:05.860\nhormone.\n\n142\n00:06:05.860 --> 00:06:09.770\nSo there's this idea that you get stronger in the gym or practicing or exercise\n\n143\n00:06:09.770 --> 00:06:10.020\n.\n\n144\n00:06:10.020 --> 00:06:13.300\nYou actually, for the most part, breaking muscles down.\n\n145\n00:06:13.300 --> 00:06:17.820\nYou get stronger during slow wave sleep when your body is actually repairing\n\n146\n00:06:17.820 --> 00:06:18.420\nthem.\n\n147\n00:06:18.420 --> 00:06:21.620\nSo let's go back to that person who spent seven hours in bed.\n\n148\n00:06:21.620 --> 00:06:26.450\nThat person could have gotten a total of 30 minutes of REM and slow wave sleep,\n\n149\n00:06:26.450 --> 00:06:26.660\nor they\n\n150\n00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:30.860\ncould have gotten as much as five and a half hours of REM and slow wave sleep.\n\n151\n00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:34.300\nAnd there's such an ocean between those two numbers.\n\n152\n00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:38.440\nLike the person who's only getting about 30 minutes of REM and slow wave sleep\n\n153\n00:06:38.440 --> 00:06:39.020\nis almost\n\n154\n00:06:39.020 --> 00:06:42.940\ndefinitely dealing with a variety of problems in their life.\n\n155\n00:06:42.940 --> 00:06:46.140\nAnd the person who's getting hours and hours of REM and slow wave sleep is\n\n156\n00:06:46.140 --> 00:06:47.260\nprobably functioning\n\n157\n00:06:47.260 --> 00:06:49.260\nat extremely high level.\n\n158\n00:06:49.260 --> 00:06:52.710\nSo the question for people to ask themselves is how can they go from being\n\n159\n00:06:52.710 --> 00:06:53.620\nsomeone who gets\n\n160\n00:06:53.620 --> 00:06:56.420\nless REM and slow wave sleep to more.\n\n161\n00:06:56.420 --> 00:07:00.180\nThe bottom line, of course, is first you need to start measuring some of this\n\n162\n00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:00.460\nstuff before\n\n163\n00:07:00.460 --> 00:07:02.020\nyou can start managing it.\n\n164\n00:07:02.020 --> 00:07:03.180\nYeah, absolutely.\n\n165\n00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:07.860\nAnd you were talking about you're at Harvard and you're getting an active\n\n166\n00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:08.780\ninterest in the\n\n167\n00:07:08.780 --> 00:07:11.580\nbody and how it works and performance.\n\n168\n00:07:11.580 --> 00:07:15.540\nBut when did you actually have that aha moment to start Woop?\n\n169\n00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:20.340\nWell, I think I started Woop before I even realized that I was building a\n\n170\n00:07:20.340 --> 00:07:21.180\ncompany.\n\n171\n00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:24.660\nI mean, I became an entrepreneur before I knew what an entrepreneur was.\n\n172\n00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:28.740\nI just became deeply obsessed with this problem.\n\n173\n00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:32.960\nAnd the problem was I don't understand what I'm doing to my body while I'm\n\n174\n00:07:32.960 --> 00:07:33.820\ntraining.\n\n175\n00:07:33.820 --> 00:07:35.220\nHow do I know if I'm getting fitter?\n\n176\n00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:37.180\nHow do I know if I should train hard?\n\n177\n00:07:37.180 --> 00:07:39.620\nHow do I know if I shouldn't train at all?\n\n178\n00:07:39.620 --> 00:07:44.310\nAnd the solution to that problem, I believed, was actually understanding the\n\n179\n00:07:44.310 --> 00:07:45.460\nother 20 hours\n\n180\n00:07:45.460 --> 00:07:46.620\nof the day.\n\n181\n00:07:46.620 --> 00:07:52.650\nThere was a big over emphasis on understanding exercise and understanding what\n\n182\n00:07:52.650 --> 00:07:53.620\nwas happening\n\n183\n00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:55.500\nduring practicing games.\n\n184\n00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:59.710\nSo I'd go out and talk to coaches and I'd ask them, you know, what kind of\n\n185\n00:07:59.710 --> 00:08:00.740\ntechnology would\n\n186\n00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:03.140\nyou want if you could have more technology?\n\n187\n00:08:03.140 --> 00:08:07.020\nAnd more often than not, they kept coming back to, well, I want more\n\n188\n00:08:07.020 --> 00:08:08.820\ninformation on exercise.\n\n189\n00:08:08.820 --> 00:08:09.980\nI want sweat analysis.\n\n190\n00:08:09.980 --> 00:08:11.180\nI want video analysis.\n\n191\n00:08:11.180 --> 00:08:13.340\nI want GPS information.\n\n192\n00:08:13.340 --> 00:08:15.820\nI want to better understand the strain of workouts.\n\n193\n00:08:15.820 --> 00:08:19.390\nBut when I asked them about their problems, more often than not, they were\n\n194\n00:08:19.390 --> 00:08:20.140\ntalking about\n\n195\n00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:24.020\nthe fact that, you know, they have player availability issues.\n\n196\n00:08:24.020 --> 00:08:26.420\nThey're over training or they're getting injured.\n\n197\n00:08:26.420 --> 00:08:30.170\nAnd so I thought there was a big mismatch between what the coaches were telling\n\n198\n00:08:30.170 --> 00:08:30.500\nme, the\n\n199\n00:08:30.500 --> 00:08:35.060\nproblems that they were describing and the solutions that they were asking for.\n\n200\n00:08:35.060 --> 00:08:37.540\nAnd there's an insight here for entrepreneurs too.\n\n201\n00:08:37.540 --> 00:08:42.160\nI think it's an entrepreneur's job to listen very carefully to your customers'\n\n202\n00:08:42.160 --> 00:08:42.940\nproblems.\n\n203\n00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:46.040\nBut it's your job as the entrepreneur to ultimately figure out what those\n\n204\n00:08:46.040 --> 00:08:47.140\nsolutions are to those\n\n205\n00:08:47.140 --> 00:08:48.420\nproblems.\n\n206\n00:08:48.420 --> 00:08:51.840\nAnd so the insight that I would say I had 10 years ago was that sleep and\n\n207\n00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.640\nrecovery played\n\n208\n00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:56.530\na much bigger and more important role in human performance than it was being\n\n209\n00:08:56.530 --> 00:08:57.200\ngiven credit\n\n210\n00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:58.200\nfor.\n\n211\n00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:02.490\nThat's so interesting because, you know, the entrepreneurs that I talk to, they\n\n212\n00:09:02.490 --> 00:09:03.200\nintuitively\n\n213\n00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.810\nknow how important it is to solve the most important problems that occur in a\n\n214\n00:09:07.810 --> 00:09:08.500\ncategory\n\n215\n00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:09.500\nmost often.\n\n216\n00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:12.020\nAnd that sounds like exactly what you've done.\n\n217\n00:09:12.020 --> 00:09:13.580\nI think so.\n\n218\n00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:18.630\nI mean, I think that a lot of companies are built on, you know, something contr\n\n219\n00:09:18.630 --> 00:09:19.260\narian or\n\n220\n00:09:19.260 --> 00:09:22.840\nsomething maybe counterintuitive that later turns out to be right.\n\n221\n00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.050\nIn the case of Woop, we believe that like sleep and recovery might be more\n\n222\n00:09:26.050 --> 00:09:26.640\nimportant\n\n223\n00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:30.480\nto performance than even training or anything else.\n\n224\n00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.960\nAnd in 2010, that was a fairly, you know, counterintuitive point of view.\n\n225\n00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:37.600\nIt was kind of a period of more as more.\n\n226\n00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:41.300\nAnd now it's, I think the pendulums come back the other way where you see these\n\n227\n00:09:41.300 --> 00:09:41.640\nhuge\n\n228\n00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:46.360\npieces on sleep and recovery and how the world's best athletes are sleeping.\n\n229\n00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:47.360\nYeah.\n\n230\n00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:48.600\nThere's no question about that.\n\n231\n00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.560\nAnd, you know, in fact, I wear an Apple watch and I also wear this Woop watch\n\n232\n00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:54.220\nand you see\n\n233\n00:09:54.220 --> 00:09:57.640\nall the commercials for Apple now where they're talking about heart rate and\n\n234\n00:09:57.640 --> 00:09:58.860\ndifferent majors.\n\n235\n00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:02.500\nAnd, you know, why will I wear both a watch and whoop?\n\n236\n00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:05.400\nWell, look, I think Apple's a phenomenal company.\n\n237\n00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:10.070\nWe very intentionally didn't want to be a watch because for one reason people\n\n238\n00:10:10.070 --> 00:10:10.540\ndon't\n\n239\n00:10:10.540 --> 00:10:15.140\nwear two watches and I have a lot of respect for the watchmakers out there.\n\n240\n00:10:15.140 --> 00:10:16.860\nAnd I also have a lot of respect for Apple.\n\n241\n00:10:16.860 --> 00:10:21.410\nAnd so, you know, we didn't view that our core function needed to be pushed\n\n242\n00:10:21.410 --> 00:10:22.440\nnotifications\n\n243\n00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:27.900\nor telling the time or allowing you to call an Uber or look at your email.\n\n244\n00:10:27.900 --> 00:10:32.240\nBut we did view that the core use case for Woop was to improve health and to do\n\n245\n00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:32.540\nthat\n\n246\n00:10:32.540 --> 00:10:35.380\nin a world class way better than anyone else.\n\n247\n00:10:35.380 --> 00:10:40.740\nThat meant the most accurate product, the best coaching, the best interface.\n\n248\n00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:45.870\nAnd by focusing on those areas, it let us down a much more minimalistic, I\n\n249\n00:10:45.870 --> 00:10:47.260\nwould say, design\n\n250\n00:10:47.260 --> 00:10:48.780\nfor our hardware.\n\n251\n00:10:48.780 --> 00:10:50.660\nAnd that's, I think, been really good to us.\n\n252\n00:10:50.660 --> 00:10:54.140\nAt the end of the day, I think people will evaluate whether they should wear a\n\n253\n00:10:54.140 --> 00:10:54.540\nWoop or\n\n254\n00:10:54.540 --> 00:10:57.780\nnot purely through a lens of health.\n\n255\n00:10:57.780 --> 00:11:02.100\nAnd today, we're proud to say that if you've been on Woop for a year, you have\n\n256\n00:11:02.100 --> 00:11:02.620\na lower\n\n257\n00:11:02.620 --> 00:11:06.100\nresting heart rate, you have a higher heart rate variability, you're getting\n\n258\n00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:06.820\nmore sleep.\n\n259\n00:11:06.820 --> 00:11:09.620\nSo we're actually changing behavior and improving health.\n\n260\n00:11:09.620 --> 00:11:11.820\nAnd I think that's the hardest thing to do in this space.\n\n261\n00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:16.100\nYeah, I think that's a powerful thing to be able to bring to the marketplace.\n\n262\n00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:22.140\nAnd, well, I think it's just amazing that you've simplified these measures.\n\n263\n00:11:22.140 --> 00:11:25.540\nYou know, how did you go about deciding what the three big things are that you\n\n264\n00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:26.020\nwere really\n\n265\n00:11:26.020 --> 00:11:28.660\ngoing to measure because you can get overload in this area?\n\n266\n00:11:28.660 --> 00:11:33.540\nWell, I felt that the key thing you needed to understand was strain and\n\n267\n00:11:33.540 --> 00:11:34.540\nrecovery and\n\n268\n00:11:34.540 --> 00:11:37.140\nthe sort of sense of balance.\n\n269\n00:11:37.140 --> 00:11:41.460\nThe way that I felt you could tell someone what to do or give them sort of\n\n270\n00:11:41.460 --> 00:11:42.300\nactionable\n\n271\n00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:46.840\nfeedback, so looking forwards versus looking backwards, I thought that a lot of\n\n272\n00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:47.460\nproducts\n\n273\n00:11:47.460 --> 00:11:50.600\ndid an okay job telling you what happened, but didn't necessarily tell you what\n\n274\n00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:51.020\nto do\n\n275\n00:11:51.020 --> 00:11:52.300\nnext.\n\n276\n00:11:52.300 --> 00:11:56.710\nAnd that's where part of the vision for Woop came in was to be an actionable\n\n277\n00:11:56.710 --> 00:11:57.300\ntool.\n\n278\n00:11:57.300 --> 00:12:00.300\nAnd if you look at the way that the product's designed, a lot of it's trying to\n\n279\n00:12:00.300 --> 00:12:00.980\nlive a step\n\n280\n00:12:00.980 --> 00:12:02.340\nahead of you.\n\n281\n00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:06.740\nThe daily cycle is you wake up in the morning with a recovery score, you know,\n\n282\n00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:08.060\n0 to 100%\n\n283\n00:12:08.060 --> 00:12:12.470\nred, yellow, green, that's telling you how much strain or stress you should put\n\n284\n00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:12.780\non your\n\n285\n00:12:12.780 --> 00:12:14.060\nbody.\n\n286\n00:12:14.060 --> 00:12:17.190\nAnd then over the course of the day, you accumulate strain and whoop will\n\n287\n00:12:17.190 --> 00:12:18.340\nautomatically measure\n\n288\n00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:21.740\nit and it'll tell you to keep going or to stop at some point.\n\n289\n00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:24.420\nAnd then even at the end of the day, it whoop looks at the strain that's\n\n290\n00:12:24.420 --> 00:12:25.060\naccumulated on\n\n291\n00:12:25.060 --> 00:12:30.810\nyour body and it'll tell you how much sleep you need for tonight to recover for\n\n292\n00:12:30.810 --> 00:12:31.740\ntomorrow.\n\n293\n00:12:31.740 --> 00:12:34.340\nAnd then of course you get a new recovery score and the whole thing restarts.\n\n294\n00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:38.860\nSo that's a daily cycle that's designed to kind of live a step ahead of you.\n\n295\n00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:43.490\nThere's also a weekly cycle that's looking at how your relationship between\n\n296\n00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:44.060\nstrain and\n\n297\n00:12:44.060 --> 00:12:49.290\nrecovery, how much sleep you're getting, what certain behaviors have been\n\n298\n00:12:49.290 --> 00:12:49.580\noptimal.\n\n299\n00:12:49.580 --> 00:12:53.160\nAnd then there's also a monthly cycle that's taking in looking at larger data\n\n300\n00:12:53.160 --> 00:12:53.660\nsets and\n\n301\n00:12:53.660 --> 00:12:58.150\nit's saying, hey, on the nights where you reported taking melatonin or sleeping\n\n302\n00:12:58.150 --> 00:12:58.340\nin a\n\n303\n00:12:58.340 --> 00:13:03.220\ncold room or eating this type of food, you perform better or worse.\n\n304\n00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:08.510\nAnd so we've created effectively three different feedback loops, time-based\n\n305\n00:13:08.510 --> 00:13:09.380\nfeedback loops,\n\n306\n00:13:09.380 --> 00:13:12.740\nones a daily cycle, ones a weekly cycle, ones a monthly cycle.\n\n307\n00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:14.620\nThere's even an annual cycle.\n\n308\n00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:18.340\nAnd all of those are designed to provide different types of feedback with this\n\n309\n00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:19.660\nlens towards how\n\n310\n00:13:19.660 --> 00:13:21.060\ncan you be healthier?\n\n311\n00:13:21.060 --> 00:13:23.140\nYou know, I just got my monthly report today.\n\n312\n00:13:23.140 --> 00:13:25.900\nYou know, so it works extremely well.\n\n313\n00:13:25.900 --> 00:13:30.780\nYou know, and you become this entrepreneur, tell us about the first dollar you\n\n314\n00:13:30.780 --> 00:13:31.380\nmade.\n\n315\n00:13:31.380 --> 00:13:35.310\nWhat was it like when you rang up your first sale and how did you feel about it\n\n316\n00:13:35.310 --> 00:13:35.380\n?\n\n317\n00:13:35.380 --> 00:13:40.000\nYou know, I don't think I ever felt that much pride in the first sale because I\n\n318\n00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:40.220\nwas\n\n319\n00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:43.260\nstill so nervous about the technology.\n\n320\n00:13:43.260 --> 00:13:49.310\nI mean, the technology that we were building was we had a bit of an existential\n\n321\n00:13:49.310 --> 00:13:49.900\nproblem,\n\n322\n00:13:49.900 --> 00:13:50.900\nright?\n\n323\n00:13:50.900 --> 00:13:53.900\nWe were building technology that had never been built before.\n\n324\n00:13:53.900 --> 00:13:57.720\nAnd when you do that, that you have these questions to yourself of like, is it\n\n325\n00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:57.980\ngoing\n\n326\n00:13:57.980 --> 00:14:00.100\nto be able to deliver the vision?\n\n327\n00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:03.740\nIs it going to live up to the hype of what we think we're actually creating\n\n328\n00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:04.260\nhere?\n\n329\n00:14:04.260 --> 00:14:10.500\nSo I remember in 2014, we started working with pro athletes and two of our\n\n330\n00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:11.420\nfirst hundred\n\n331\n00:14:11.420 --> 00:14:16.520\nusers were people like LeBron James and Michael Phelps, who you could argue to\n\n332\n00:14:16.520 --> 00:14:17.060\nthe best in\n\n333\n00:14:17.060 --> 00:14:19.500\nthe world at the time, maybe to the best ever.\n\n334\n00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:24.460\nAnd so it was incredibly gratifying to see these world class performers using\n\n335\n00:14:24.460 --> 00:14:25.300\ntechnology\n\n336\n00:14:25.300 --> 00:14:28.860\nthat not that long ago was an idea in a dorm room.\n\n337\n00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:32.110\nBut at the same time, you know, I was hyper anxious about the fact that like,\n\n338\n00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:32.620\nis it going\n\n339\n00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:33.620\nto perform?\n\n340\n00:14:33.620 --> 00:14:34.620\nAre they going to love it?\n\n341\n00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:35.620\nAre they going to keep wearing it?\n\n342\n00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:39.660\nAnd so I think that sort of balance or relentlessness, if you will, helped us\n\n343\n00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:40.980\ncontinue iterating on\n\n344\n00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:43.140\nthe technology and driving forwards.\n\n345\n00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:47.710\nAnd of course, we went from these top individuals to leagues to now whoop as a\n\n346\n00:14:47.710 --> 00:14:48.980\nmainstream consumer\n\n347\n00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:49.980\nproduct.\n\n348\n00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.570\nI want to really now kind of dig into the real purpose of this program, which\n\n349\n00:14:53.570 --> 00:14:54.140\nis how you\n\n350\n00:14:54.140 --> 00:14:55.380\ngo about leading.\n\n351\n00:14:55.380 --> 00:14:58.750\nAnd it's really hard to do that without going back and examining someone's\n\n352\n00:14:58.750 --> 00:14:59.540\nupbringing.\n\n353\n00:14:59.540 --> 00:15:00.780\nTell us about your upbringing.\n\n354\n00:15:00.780 --> 00:15:03.220\nYeah, I grew up on Long Island.\n\n355\n00:15:03.220 --> 00:15:08.980\nMy father immigrated to this country when he was 22 years old from Egypt.\n\n356\n00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:16.710\nSo you know, hard driving, charismatic, kind of streets smart, you know, worked\n\n357\n00:15:16.710 --> 00:15:17.780\nvery hard.\n\n358\n00:15:17.780 --> 00:15:20.540\nHis whole career rose the ranks in finance.\n\n359\n00:15:20.540 --> 00:15:26.490\nMy mom, very different, you know, super well educated, went to Exeter and\n\n360\n00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:28.420\nPrinceton, brilliant\n\n361\n00:15:28.420 --> 00:15:33.650\nwriter, was one of the best writers in her class, very book smart, more intro\n\n362\n00:15:33.650 --> 00:15:34.420\nverted.\n\n363\n00:15:34.420 --> 00:15:36.300\nMy father more extroverted.\n\n364\n00:15:36.300 --> 00:15:41.460\nAnd so I kind of saw through growing up with them as parents, two different\n\n365\n00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.220\nfilters to\n\n366\n00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:44.580\napply to the world.\n\n367\n00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:47.730\nYou know, one which was sort of running through walls, the other which was\n\n368\n00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:48.980\nbeing deeply analytical.\n\n369\n00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:52.920\nAnd I think that those sort of extremes were helpful for me in thinking about\n\n370\n00:15:52.920 --> 00:15:53.580\ndifferent\n\n371\n00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:55.900\nways to solve problems.\n\n372\n00:15:55.900 --> 00:15:57.420\nAnd I was an only child as well.\n\n373\n00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:01.610\nSo I spent a lot of time around adults, which I think was helpful too in terms\n\n374\n00:16:01.610 --> 00:16:03.060\nof being comfortable,\n\n375\n00:16:03.060 --> 00:16:05.660\nbeing around people who were older than me.\n\n376\n00:16:05.660 --> 00:16:08.180\nThat's interesting because my daughter Ashley is the only child.\n\n377\n00:16:08.180 --> 00:16:11.380\nAnd I think you grew up a little faster when you're that only child.\n\n378\n00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:14.430\nWhen you think about your childhood, well, when you look back at it, is there a\n\n379\n00:16:14.430 --> 00:16:14.900\npersonal\n\n380\n00:16:14.900 --> 00:16:19.130\nstory that you recall that really helps lay out the kind of leader that you've\n\n381\n00:16:19.130 --> 00:16:19.820\nbecome?\n\n382\n00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:26.130\nI think at least from my development as a CEO, it's been really an iterative\n\n383\n00:16:26.130 --> 00:16:27.100\nprocess where\n\n384\n00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:29.380\nI've been trying to get a little bit better every day.\n\n385\n00:16:29.380 --> 00:16:31.970\nI don't feel like, you know, something happened that when I was 10 years old,\n\n386\n00:16:31.970 --> 00:16:32.620\nthat then became\n\n387\n00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:35.860\nreflective of the CEO that I am today.\n\n388\n00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:40.140\nI do appreciate a lot of the experiences that I had playing sports.\n\n389\n00:16:40.140 --> 00:16:43.260\nI was a captain of three teams in high school.\n\n390\n00:16:43.260 --> 00:16:47.100\nI was captain of the Harvard Squash team in college.\n\n391\n00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:49.940\nI helped run a final club in college.\n\n392\n00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:54.870\nYou know, these experiences of leadership in different contexts, especially\n\n393\n00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:55.420\nsports, I\n\n394\n00:16:55.420 --> 00:17:00.820\ndo think are helpful as you think about having a leadership role later in your\n\n395\n00:17:00.820 --> 00:17:01.660\ncareer.\n\n396\n00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:05.650\nAnd I think one of the more important things that I learned or developed in\n\n397\n00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:06.300\nbecoming a\n\n398\n00:17:06.300 --> 00:17:09.980\nbetter leader was really focusing on myself too.\n\n399\n00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:16.980\nAnd focusing on how I was managing my own day to day emotions and personality.\n\n400\n00:17:16.980 --> 00:17:20.300\nWell who believed in you before you might have actually believed in yourself?\n\n401\n00:17:20.300 --> 00:17:22.060\nWell, that's a good question.\n\n402\n00:17:22.060 --> 00:17:25.460\nI think I did operate with a fair amount of inner belief.\n\n403\n00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:30.180\nI mean, obviously my parents were very encouraging in my development.\n\n404\n00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.700\nI think I had, you know, great teachers along the way.\n\n405\n00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:36.180\nI had great coaches along the way.\n\n406\n00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:39.860\nI don't think I would have started a company at the age of 22.\n\n407\n00:17:39.860 --> 00:17:44.860\nIf I hadn't developed some sense of inner belief along the way.\n\n408\n00:17:44.860 --> 00:17:48.120\nAnd you know, I have to just be grateful for the fact that I was fortunate\n\n409\n00:17:48.120 --> 00:17:48.740\nenough to go\n\n410\n00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:51.420\nto good schools and have good friends.\n\n411\n00:17:51.420 --> 00:17:56.060\nAnd I think a sort of an overall healthy upbringing.\n\n412\n00:17:56.060 --> 00:18:00.660\nI will say that the sort of first year or two of building Woop was, I would\n\n413\n00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:01.460\ntake quite\n\n414\n00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:08.020\npainful and like quite difficult and, you know, emotionally quite draining.\n\n415\n00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:13.180\nBecause I was learning what it meant to raise capital and run a business.\n\n416\n00:18:13.180 --> 00:18:16.050\nAnd I also was running up against the fact that a lot of people didn't think\n\n417\n00:18:16.050 --> 00:18:16.340\nwhat I\n\n418\n00:18:16.340 --> 00:18:18.060\nwas doing was going to be successful.\n\n419\n00:18:18.060 --> 00:18:19.660\nAnd we're telling me that.\n\n420\n00:18:19.660 --> 00:18:23.380\nAnd so being told that you're going to fail from people that you admire or\n\n421\n00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:24.100\nrespect is\n\n422\n00:18:24.100 --> 00:18:26.420\na really painful feedback loop.\n\n423\n00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:31.140\nI think I put up a real wall to negative feedback, you know, in my early 20s\n\n424\n00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:31.700\nwhile I\n\n425\n00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:33.700\nwas getting Woop off the ground.\n\n426\n00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:37.560\nIt took years to sort of find how to bring negative feedback back in and\n\n427\n00:18:37.560 --> 00:18:38.380\nactually turn\n\n428\n00:18:38.380 --> 00:18:40.100\nit into a positive.\n\n429\n00:18:40.100 --> 00:18:41.100\nHow do you do that?\n\n430\n00:18:41.100 --> 00:18:46.160\nWell, the insight I got along the way was you want to make sure you hear\n\n431\n00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:47.340\neverything that\n\n432\n00:18:47.340 --> 00:18:50.300\npeople are saying you don't necessarily have to listen to it.\n\n433\n00:18:50.300 --> 00:18:53.960\nI had gotten to a place where I felt like such a high percentage of the\n\n434\n00:18:53.960 --> 00:18:54.740\nfeedback I was\n\n435\n00:18:54.740 --> 00:18:59.450\ngetting in the early days of Woop was negative that it just felt like a better\n\n436\n00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:00.460\nway to survive\n\n437\n00:19:00.460 --> 00:19:03.540\nwas going to be not listening to it for a while.\n\n438\n00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:08.020\nAnd that can be an okay coping mechanism if you're a small company or a small\n\n439\n00:19:08.020 --> 00:19:08.580\nteam.\n\n440\n00:19:08.580 --> 00:19:12.700\nBut it's not productive if you're trying to grow into a large organization.\n\n441\n00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:15.220\nThat's a very dynamic organization.\n\n442\n00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:19.220\nAnother reason that I think I had this challenge is that my self identity and\n\n443\n00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:20.220\nthe performance\n\n444\n00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:23.660\nof Woop I think were very tied up as one in the same.\n\n445\n00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:27.700\nYou know, I felt like if Woop was having a good day or Woop was succeeding, I\n\n446\n00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:29.060\nwas succeeding.\n\n447\n00:19:29.060 --> 00:19:31.380\nIf Woop was failing, I was failing.\n\n448\n00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:34.260\nAnd that's not a healthy mindset.\n\n449\n00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:36.780\nIn part because it's also not real.\n\n450\n00:19:36.780 --> 00:19:41.300\nLike you can be operating well as a management team or as an individual.\n\n451\n00:19:41.300 --> 00:19:45.020\nAnd for various circumstances or reasons the company may be working through\n\n452\n00:19:45.020 --> 00:19:45.780\nchallenges.\n\n453\n00:19:45.780 --> 00:19:49.130\nThe opposite is true too where you can be part of a business that's having\n\n454\n00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:49.700\nexplosive\n\n455\n00:19:49.700 --> 00:19:53.860\ngrowth but you're personally really struggling or not keeping up.\n\n456\n00:19:53.860 --> 00:19:58.570\nAnd so I got to this place where I started to separate my own performance from\n\n457\n00:19:58.570 --> 00:19:58.940\nthat\n\n458\n00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:04.380\ncompany and that became a really healthy mechanism to also help me then bring\n\n459\n00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:05.020\non more\n\n460\n00:20:05.020 --> 00:20:08.140\nforms of feedback and learning in my life.\n\n461\n00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:12.220\nAnd that introspection and that sort of separation allowed me to ask myself,\n\n462\n00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:12.740\nokay, how can I\n\n463\n00:20:12.740 --> 00:20:17.680\njust get a little bit better every single day as a leader, as a CEO, as an\n\n464\n00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:18.980\nentrepreneur?\n\n465\n00:20:18.980 --> 00:20:21.860\nAnd you know, the company success in part followed from that.\n\n466\n00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:25.370\nYou know, it's funny because when I look back on the ideas that I've had, I\n\n467\n00:20:25.370 --> 00:20:25.820\ndidn't\n\n468\n00:20:25.820 --> 00:20:27.580\nhave any as big as Woop.\n\n469\n00:20:27.580 --> 00:20:32.700\nBut I can tell you that originally I would, if people had gave me that negative\n\n470\n00:20:32.700 --> 00:20:33.340\nfeedback,\n\n471\n00:20:33.340 --> 00:20:35.740\na lot of times I would think they just don't get it.\n\n472\n00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:41.120\nYou know, and then I realized that the first thing you have to do is figure out\n\n473\n00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:41.660\nwhether\n\n474\n00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:42.660\nthey're right or not.\n\n475\n00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:43.660\nYeah.\n\n476\n00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:46.280\nYou know, so you got to really understand that barrier that they're bringing up\n\n477\n00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:47.060\nand then\n\n478\n00:20:47.060 --> 00:20:50.700\nif you can dismiss it after you've thought about it, it makes a lot of sense.\n\n479\n00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:55.300\nBut I made a lot of mistakes when I had that idea, hey, these people just don't\n\n480\n00:20:55.300 --> 00:20:55.700\nget how\n\n481\n00:20:55.700 --> 00:20:57.860\nbrilliant my ideas.\n\n482\n00:20:57.860 --> 00:21:00.380\nI think that's absolutely right.\n\n483\n00:21:00.380 --> 00:21:05.330\nAnd now disagreement or negative feedback is almost a source of excitement for\n\n484\n00:21:05.330 --> 00:21:06.020\nme because\n\n485\n00:21:06.020 --> 00:21:11.130\nit allows you to ask that question, why do I think I'm right or why do I feel\n\n486\n00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:11.980\nso strongly\n\n487\n00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:13.740\nabout X, Y and Z?\n\n488\n00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:17.220\nYou know, it's interesting as I listen to you're obviously a self-coaching.\n\n489\n00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:20.890\nI've just written a book called Take Charge of You, How Self Coaching Can\n\n490\n00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:21.780\nTransform Your\n\n491\n00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:28.420\nLife and Career and you seem to have a great sense of self-awareness.\n\n492\n00:21:28.420 --> 00:21:32.920\nWhat process do you use to get that kind of self-awareness that allows you to\n\n493\n00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:33.580\nself-coat\n\n494\n00:21:33.580 --> 00:21:37.700\nyourself so that you can keep polishing the apple and get better and better?\n\n495\n00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:43.180\nWell, I think one of the best things I started doing in my life was meditating.\n\n496\n00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:46.770\nAnd I did this, it started about seven years ago, which was also around the\n\n497\n00:21:46.770 --> 00:21:47.460\nsame time that\n\n498\n00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:52.100\nI felt like I had reached a point of crisis in building the company.\n\n499\n00:21:52.100 --> 00:21:56.500\nAnd I, you know, Woop had probably raised about $10 million or so at that point\n\n500\n00:21:56.500 --> 00:21:57.060\n, which\n\n501\n00:21:57.060 --> 00:21:58.660\ncertainly felt like a lot of money.\n\n502\n00:21:58.660 --> 00:22:02.640\nI probably had a team of 15 or 20 people, but I felt like I didn't really, I\n\n503\n00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:03.140\nwasn't\n\n504\n00:22:03.140 --> 00:22:04.140\nin control.\n\n505\n00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:05.540\nI felt out of balance.\n\n506\n00:22:05.540 --> 00:22:09.170\nI felt like things were coming out of my mouth and then I was realizing I said\n\n507\n00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:09.620\nthem,\n\n508\n00:22:09.620 --> 00:22:14.180\nyou kind of feel like you're in a constant state of reactiveness.\n\n509\n00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:17.540\nAnd so I figured maybe learning how to meditate would help.\n\n510\n00:22:17.540 --> 00:22:18.820\nAnd it really did.\n\n511\n00:22:18.820 --> 00:22:24.010\nAnd it's something I've done every day now for seven, actually maybe eight\n\n512\n00:22:24.010 --> 00:22:24.420\nyears.\n\n513\n00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:30.300\nAnd the process of meditation is a powerful one in that I think it allows you\n\n514\n00:22:30.300 --> 00:22:30.960\nto look\n\n515\n00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.320\nat yourself in the third person, not just during the meditation, but kind of in\n\n516\n00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:36.620\nthe\n\n517\n00:22:36.620 --> 00:22:38.220\nrest of your life.\n\n518\n00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:41.450\nAnd so I now find throughout the day, there'll be these points where I hear a\n\n519\n00:22:41.450 --> 00:22:41.980\nvoice in my\n\n520\n00:22:41.980 --> 00:22:45.780\nhead where it's, oh, Will's about to get angry or Will's frustrated or Will's\n\n521\n00:22:45.780 --> 00:22:45.900\ngoing\n\n522\n00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:48.580\nto say something before it actually happens.\n\n523\n00:22:48.580 --> 00:22:53.340\nAnd that sort of ability to be a step ahead of yourself rather than a step\n\n524\n00:22:53.340 --> 00:22:56.020\nbehind yourself.\n\n525\n00:22:56.020 --> 00:22:58.260\nFor me, it was life changing.\n\n526\n00:22:58.260 --> 00:23:00.740\nAnd then, of course, it, you know, it makes you happier.\n\n527\n00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:02.940\nIt makes you calmer.\n\n528\n00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:05.140\nIt makes you, I would say, steadier.\n\n529\n00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.100\nThat's another thing that I think is really underrated in leadership is having\n\n530\n00:23:09.100 --> 00:23:09.500\nkind of\n\n531\n00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:12.180\na consistent affect.\n\n532\n00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:15.120\nYou don't want to be like, you know, up here one day and down here the next,\n\n533\n00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:15.740\nyou kind of\n\n534\n00:23:15.740 --> 00:23:19.950\nwant to have a steady hand as good things are happening or bad things are\n\n535\n00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:20.940\nhappening.\n\n536\n00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:25.830\nSo all of those things I think came in part from me doing this sort of work on\n\n537\n00:23:25.830 --> 00:23:26.420\nmyself\n\n538\n00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:29.180\nand really thinking about strengths and weaknesses.\n\n539\n00:23:29.180 --> 00:23:30.180\nYou know, it's interesting.\n\n540\n00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:33.800\nYou know, I did had a conversation with Kevin Johnson, who's the CEO of\n\n541\n00:23:33.800 --> 00:23:34.620\nStarbucks.\n\n542\n00:23:34.620 --> 00:23:37.500\nAnd he's a big believer in meditation.\n\n543\n00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:42.350\nIn fact, Ringo Starr turned him on to somebody, you know, taught us how to do\n\n544\n00:23:42.350 --> 00:23:43.300\nhis singing.\n\n545\n00:23:43.300 --> 00:23:47.020\nSo who taught you meditation and, you know, how much time do you spend med\n\n546\n00:23:47.020 --> 00:23:47.660\nitating?\n\n547\n00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:51.220\nWell, I took a four day transcendental meditation course.\n\n548\n00:23:51.220 --> 00:23:56.020\nAnd I think that I probably spend between 20 and 40 minutes a day meditating.\n\n549\n00:23:56.020 --> 00:23:59.260\nIt's a practice that takes about 22 minutes.\n\n550\n00:23:59.260 --> 00:24:00.700\nSo I do it every single morning.\n\n551\n00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:04.620\nAnd then I would say, you know, a third of a third of the days I'll do it in\n\n552\n00:24:04.620 --> 00:24:05.740\nthe afternoon.\n\n553\n00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:08.540\nSo you'll do 22 minutes in the afternoon as well.\n\n554\n00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:09.540\nYeah.\n\n555\n00:24:09.540 --> 00:24:12.690\nI think I could stomach the 22 minutes, the hour part, I think would be pretty\n\n556\n00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:13.060\nhard for\n\n557\n00:24:13.060 --> 00:24:14.940\nme to be able to do that.\n\n558\n00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:19.860\nI've done it for an hour or longer, but to me, it's sort of diminishing returns\n\n559\n00:24:19.860 --> 00:24:20.220\nat that\n\n560\n00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:24.220\npoint or it becomes more about the end state is meditation.\n\n561\n00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:29.100\nFor me, I'm starting to optimize a lot of my life around being a great CEO and\n\n562\n00:24:29.100 --> 00:24:29.780\nrunning\n\n563\n00:24:29.780 --> 00:24:31.380\na great company.\n\n564\n00:24:31.380 --> 00:24:35.570\nSo certain things that might be slightly more optimal for me, but are less\n\n565\n00:24:35.570 --> 00:24:36.620\noptimal for being\n\n566\n00:24:36.620 --> 00:24:39.140\na CEO I tend to shy away from.\n\n567\n00:24:39.140 --> 00:24:40.140\nMakes sense.\n\n568\n00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:43.980\nYou know, speaking to be a CEO, you had to really create a business model.\n\n569\n00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:47.780\nTell us about your business model and what you hope to accomplish with it.\n\n570\n00:24:47.780 --> 00:24:48.900\nIt's a great question.\n\n571\n00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:53.040\nI think when you start a company, you don't necessarily know all the things you\n\n572\n00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:53.380\n're going\n\n573\n00:24:53.380 --> 00:24:54.900\nto innovate on.\n\n574\n00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:58.450\nYou know, for us, it was pretty clear we were going to innovate around health\n\n575\n00:24:58.450 --> 00:24:59.060\nmonitoring\n\n576\n00:24:59.060 --> 00:25:00.060\nand technology.\n\n577\n00:25:00.060 --> 00:25:02.940\nI didn't think we were going to innovate around the business model itself for\n\n578\n00:25:02.940 --> 00:25:03.580\nselling that\n\n579\n00:25:03.580 --> 00:25:07.980\ntechnology, but that was one of the learnings along the way.\n\n580\n00:25:07.980 --> 00:25:13.140\nIn 2017, we entered the consumer market after working with pro athletes and\n\n581\n00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:14.380\nteams for years,\n\n582\n00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:18.960\nDavid, and we sold Woop for $500, who was a one-time fee, and it was sort of\n\n583\n00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:19.820\nequivalent\n\n584\n00:25:19.820 --> 00:25:21.980\nto an expensive Garmin watch.\n\n585\n00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:25.370\nAnd what we saw over the course of the next 12 months is that people were\n\n586\n00:25:25.370 --> 00:25:26.140\ncontinuing to\n\n587\n00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:28.260\nwear Woop who had bought it.\n\n588\n00:25:28.260 --> 00:25:31.970\nWe didn't have the same drop-off rates that had plagued Fitbit or Jawbones and\n\n589\n00:25:31.970 --> 00:25:32.580\nthese other\n\n590\n00:25:32.580 --> 00:25:37.100\ncompanies, essentially where you put it on and you never take it off, right?\n\n591\n00:25:37.100 --> 00:25:39.740\nAnd the problem was that we weren't selling a lot of them.\n\n592\n00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:44.770\nAnd around that time as well, I was noticing that Fitbit in the public markets\n\n593\n00:25:44.770 --> 00:25:45.660\nwas trading\n\n594\n00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:49.820\nat about one times revenue, which as you know, is not great, especially for a\n\n595\n00:25:49.820 --> 00:25:50.580\ntechnology\n\n596\n00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:51.660\ncompany.\n\n597\n00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:54.680\nAnd Peloton, which wasn't public yet, but in the private markets, they were\n\n598\n00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:55.180\ntrading at\n\n599\n00:25:55.180 --> 00:25:56.500\nabout 20 times revenue.\n\n600\n00:25:56.500 --> 00:25:59.260\nAnd Peloton, of course, had a subscription Fitbit.\n\n601\n00:25:59.260 --> 00:26:03.810\nSo I asked myself, do you want to grow up to look more like Peloton or do you\n\n602\n00:26:03.810 --> 00:26:04.260\nwant to\n\n603\n00:26:04.260 --> 00:26:06.500\ngrow up to look more like Fitbit?\n\n604\n00:26:06.500 --> 00:26:09.860\nAnd that was a fairly easy decision given those multiples.\n\n605\n00:26:09.860 --> 00:26:14.550\nBut I also thought, well, maybe if we were a subscription, we could get more\n\n606\n00:26:14.550 --> 00:26:15.300\npeople in\n\n607\n00:26:15.300 --> 00:26:18.380\nthe door because we could have a lower upfront cost.\n\n608\n00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:22.240\nBut if people fell in love with the product over time, it could be better for\n\n609\n00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:23.020\nboth parties.\n\n610\n00:26:23.020 --> 00:26:27.190\nAnd so in May of 2018, we transitioned the whole business to being a\n\n611\n00:26:27.190 --> 00:26:28.300\nsubscription, in\n\n612\n00:26:28.300 --> 00:26:32.580\nfact, where the hardware was just included and free as part of the subscription\n\n613\n00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:32.700\n.\n\n614\n00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:36.400\nAnd now today you can sign up for whoop for as little as $30 and we'll send you\n\n615\n00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:36.940\nthe brand\n\n616\n00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:41.660\nnew whoop4.0 in the mail and you can cancel over time.\n\n617\n00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:44.460\nSo it's a fairly unique business model.\n\n618\n00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:48.700\nThere isn't really a perfect analog to it because the hardware is free.\n\n619\n00:26:48.700 --> 00:26:52.070\nAnd I would say as a company, it's made us a better company because we've had\n\n620\n00:26:52.070 --> 00:26:52.620\nto be even\n\n621\n00:26:52.620 --> 00:26:57.900\nmore obsessed with customer experience and member satisfaction.\n\n622\n00:26:57.900 --> 00:27:02.140\nI wanted to ask you about that because you obviously got this new business.\n\n623\n00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:03.900\nYou're trying to gain trial.\n\n624\n00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:07.880\nBut when you think about what drives you're thinking the most, is it retention\n\n625\n00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:08.340\nof your\n\n626\n00:27:08.340 --> 00:27:10.540\ncurrent customers or attraction?\n\n627\n00:27:10.540 --> 00:27:11.540\nWell, it's funny.\n\n628\n00:27:11.540 --> 00:27:17.030\nWe define the whole business through growth and retention, which we've\n\n629\n00:27:17.030 --> 00:27:18.660\nnicknamed Grotain.\n\n630\n00:27:18.660 --> 00:27:20.860\nFor grow and retain.\n\n631\n00:27:20.860 --> 00:27:25.580\nAs you'll see people who walk around with Grotain shirts on from time to time.\n\n632\n00:27:25.580 --> 00:27:27.220\nThose are the two lovers on our business.\n\n633\n00:27:27.220 --> 00:27:31.490\nAnd I would say that I probably personally spend more time thinking about\n\n634\n00:27:31.490 --> 00:27:32.380\nretention.\n\n635\n00:27:32.380 --> 00:27:35.080\nI would say the rest of the management team probably spends a lot of time\n\n636\n00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:35.780\nthinking about\n\n637\n00:27:35.780 --> 00:27:37.780\ngrowth.\n\n638\n00:27:37.780 --> 00:27:39.700\nBut you can't have one without the other.\n\n639\n00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:45.890\nAnd for us, ensuring that people are really enjoying the product for months and\n\n640\n00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:46.580\nyears and\n\n641\n00:27:46.580 --> 00:27:50.540\nhopefully for the rest of their lives is core to our value proposition.\n\n642\n00:27:50.540 --> 00:27:54.340\nI mean, we don't think of improving health as a one time thing.\n\n643\n00:27:54.340 --> 00:27:57.220\nIt's something that's going to evolve at different stages in your life.\n\n644\n00:27:57.220 --> 00:28:01.220\nI mean, just picture a woman who goes from being someone who's training for a\n\n645\n00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:01.820\nmarathon\n\n646\n00:28:01.820 --> 00:28:04.570\nto all of a sudden, someone who's pregnant to all of a sudden who's got a\n\n647\n00:28:04.570 --> 00:28:05.180\nnewborn.\n\n648\n00:28:05.180 --> 00:28:09.140\nI mean, those are three very different stages of life for the same person.\n\n649\n00:28:09.140 --> 00:28:14.140\nAnd each one of those stages has a very different goal attached to it.\n\n650\n00:28:14.140 --> 00:28:18.510\nAnd so as a product and a technology and a service, we want to make sure that\n\n651\n00:28:18.510 --> 00:28:18.960\nwe're\n\n652\n00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.700\nevolving with those different needs.\n\n653\n00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:22.700\nYou know, it's interesting.\n\n654\n00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:26.320\nI was thinking about your job and you've got to be an expert, or at least damn\n\n655\n00:28:26.320 --> 00:28:26.780\ngood at\n\n656\n00:28:26.780 --> 00:28:30.620\ntechnology, damn good at medicine, damn good at research.\n\n657\n00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:34.100\nHow do you manage the intersection of those three things?\n\n658\n00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:35.980\nDoes one take more time than the other?\n\n659\n00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:38.180\nAnd how do you lead in each of those areas?\n\n660\n00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:41.780\nWell, first and foremost, it's about being around great people.\n\n661\n00:28:41.780 --> 00:28:46.580\nYou know, I've built this business in large part by getting to work with really\n\n662\n00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:47.340\nbrilliant\n\n663\n00:28:47.340 --> 00:28:48.340\npeople.\n\n664\n00:28:48.340 --> 00:28:52.610\nAnd people, by the way, who are much more brilliant at their category of work\n\n665\n00:28:52.610 --> 00:28:53.020\nthan I\n\n666\n00:28:53.020 --> 00:28:55.100\nam, I mean, you're absolutely right.\n\n667\n00:28:55.100 --> 00:29:01.210\nIn order to be successful at wearable technology, you have to be great, not\n\n668\n00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:02.820\ngood at hardware,\n\n669\n00:29:02.820 --> 00:29:06.100\nsoftware, analytics, design.\n\n670\n00:29:06.100 --> 00:29:09.020\nYou probably need some notion of community.\n\n671\n00:29:09.020 --> 00:29:11.820\nYou have to be able to lean on research and science.\n\n672\n00:29:11.820 --> 00:29:16.980\nAnd there's a reason that many of the best companies in the world have failed\n\n673\n00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:17.380\nin this\n\n674\n00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:18.380\nspace.\n\n675\n00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:23.160\nI mean, Nike exited the space, Adidas exited the space, Under Armour spent a\n\n676\n00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.140\nbillion dollars\n\n677\n00:29:24.140 --> 00:29:26.460\nand then exited the space.\n\n678\n00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:30.280\nIntel pulled out of the space, Microsoft launched something, pulled it back,\n\n679\n00:29:30.280 --> 00:29:31.020\nGoogle launched\n\n680\n00:29:31.020 --> 00:29:35.670\nsomething, pulled it back, a job loan and a 10 other startups that have raised\n\n681\n00:29:35.670 --> 00:29:36.220\nin total\n\n682\n00:29:36.220 --> 00:29:40.580\nover a billion dollars have failed.\n\n683\n00:29:40.580 --> 00:29:44.660\nIt's been a really, really hard market.\n\n684\n00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:49.440\nAnd so the only way you can be successful is being excellent at like six or\n\n685\n00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:50.220\nseven different\n\n686\n00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:51.220\nthings.\n\n687\n00:29:51.220 --> 00:29:53.870\nAnd in order to be excellent at six or seven things, as you know, David, you\n\n688\n00:29:53.870 --> 00:29:54.900\nneed to have\n\n689\n00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:56.980\nreally, really good people.\n\n690\n00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:59.500\nThere's not one generalist who's all those things.\n\n691\n00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:01.100\nAnd I'm certainly not that one generalist.\n\n692\n00:30:01.100 --> 00:30:06.150\nI've gotten to a place where I can identify, I think, great talent and I can\n\n693\n00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:07.140\nempower that\n\n694\n00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:09.540\ntalent to take on the world.\n\n695\n00:30:09.540 --> 00:30:12.660\nYou know, I want to talk to you about talent in a minute, but I have to pay a\n\n696\n00:30:12.660 --> 00:30:13.620\ncompliment.\n\n697\n00:30:13.620 --> 00:30:14.860\nYour marketing is fantastic.\n\n698\n00:30:14.860 --> 00:30:18.900\nI don't know if you view yourself as a barcodeer, but your brand marketing is\n\n699\n00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:19.860\nincredible.\n\n700\n00:30:19.860 --> 00:30:23.960\nFirst question I have to ask is how in the world do you get a LeBron James or a\n\n701\n00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:24.500\nMichael\n\n702\n00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:27.020\nPhelps to be wearing the Whoop watch to begin with?\n\n703\n00:30:27.020 --> 00:30:34.550\nWell, the key to getting to a world-class athlete back then was going to their\n\n704\n00:30:34.550 --> 00:30:36.380\npersonal trainer.\n\n705\n00:30:36.380 --> 00:30:41.990\nIt's still a pretty good person to go to today, but in 2014, you know, it wasn\n\n706\n00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:42.540\n't quite as\n\n707\n00:30:42.540 --> 00:30:44.180\nsexy of a role.\n\n708\n00:30:44.180 --> 00:30:48.110\nAnd those personal trainers spent more time with these athletes than, you know,\n\n709\n00:30:48.110 --> 00:30:48.500\nalmost\n\n710\n00:30:48.500 --> 00:30:49.700\nanyone else.\n\n711\n00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:53.710\nSo that was the way we got to LeBron's through Mike Mancias, his personal\n\n712\n00:30:53.710 --> 00:30:55.620\ntrainer for over,\n\n713\n00:30:55.620 --> 00:30:58.060\nI think 15 years now.\n\n714\n00:30:58.060 --> 00:31:01.940\nAnd Keenan Robinson, who at the time was Michael Phelps's trainer.\n\n715\n00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:05.350\nAnd then, you know, the product has to live up to the pressures of those\n\n716\n00:31:05.350 --> 00:31:06.100\nathletes.\n\n717\n00:31:06.100 --> 00:31:07.620\nUnfortunately, it did.\n\n718\n00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:12.930\nI think in terms of brand and marketing, the thing that I'll add is that we\n\n719\n00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:13.860\nnever paid\n\n720\n00:31:13.860 --> 00:31:15.780\nthese athletes to wear Whoop.\n\n721\n00:31:15.780 --> 00:31:23.860\nIt was critical to our success that they had to buy the product and use it.\n\n722\n00:31:23.860 --> 00:31:28.170\nAnd I bring that up because I thought with wearable technology, it was so\n\n723\n00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:28.940\ndisruptive\n\n724\n00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:29.940\nto your life.\n\n725\n00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:33.060\nHow many things in your life do you wear 24/7?\n\n726\n00:31:33.060 --> 00:31:34.340\nNot a lot, right?\n\n727\n00:31:34.340 --> 00:31:38.410\nSo it's such a disruptive thing that if it didn't live up to expectations,\n\n728\n00:31:38.410 --> 00:31:39.060\nthere was\n\n729\n00:31:39.060 --> 00:31:43.670\nno amount of money or equity we could give someone to wear it who didn't like\n\n730\n00:31:43.670 --> 00:31:44.020\nit.\n\n731\n00:31:44.020 --> 00:31:48.170\nBut if it actually could tell them how well they were sleeping and recovering\n\n732\n00:31:48.170 --> 00:31:48.660\nand it was\n\n733\n00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:53.580\ngoing to give them even just 1% chance better at winning, they would pay for it\n\n734\n00:31:53.580 --> 00:31:53.820\n.\n\n735\n00:31:53.820 --> 00:31:59.500\nAnd so, we bet on the technology and it forced us also to actually figure out\n\n736\n00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:00.380\nif the technology\n\n737\n00:32:00.380 --> 00:32:01.740\nwas good.\n\n738\n00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:06.940\nAnd so it was a painful battle, but one that we looked back on fondly.\n\n739\n00:32:06.940 --> 00:32:10.870\nI love your marketing that you have now on national television, you know, where\n\n740\n00:32:10.870 --> 00:32:11.260\nyou'll\n\n741\n00:32:11.260 --> 00:32:15.810\nwatch a Rory McElroy or Justin Thomas before he swings the golf club and you'll\n\n742\n00:32:15.810 --> 00:32:16.260\nsee what\n\n743\n00:32:16.260 --> 00:32:17.420\nhis heart rate is.\n\n744\n00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:18.420\nWhoop live.\n\n745\n00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:19.420\nYeah, whoop live.\n\n746\n00:32:19.420 --> 00:32:20.420\nI mean, fantastic.\n\n747\n00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:21.420\nYeah.\n\n748\n00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:24.840\nAre you getting these guys to wear the product for free or now that you're\n\n749\n00:32:24.840 --> 00:32:26.020\nbigger, you actually\n\n750\n00:32:26.020 --> 00:32:27.780\ncut them in on the action?\n\n751\n00:32:27.780 --> 00:32:32.680\nWell, whoop live is an interesting marketing initiative because it touches so\n\n752\n00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:33.740\nmany different\n\n753\n00:32:33.740 --> 00:32:35.300\nconstituencies.\n\n754\n00:32:35.300 --> 00:32:39.020\nSo whoop live is our ability to bring live heart rate and other whoop data to\n\n755\n00:32:39.020 --> 00:32:39.780\nbroadcast.\n\n756\n00:32:39.780 --> 00:32:44.760\nSo David, you're talking about during the Ryder Cup or during the PGA Tour, we\n\n757\n00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:44.940\nwere\n\n758\n00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.860\nshowing live heart rate of players hitting shots.\n\n759\n00:32:47.860 --> 00:32:48.860\nLove it.\n\n760\n00:32:48.860 --> 00:32:51.340\nAnd we're going to do this across a lot of different sports.\n\n761\n00:32:51.340 --> 00:32:53.340\nWe've started doing it in CrossFit.\n\n762\n00:32:53.340 --> 00:32:55.980\nWe've been doing it in NASCAR and SRX.\n\n763\n00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:58.780\nSo there's a lot more to come on that front.\n\n764\n00:32:58.780 --> 00:33:01.100\nYou have to have approval from the leagues.\n\n765\n00:33:01.100 --> 00:33:03.500\nYou have to have buy in from the broadcasters.\n\n766\n00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:07.500\nYou have to buy in from the various athletes.\n\n767\n00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:11.390\nSo that as a marketing initiative certainly requires various forms of\n\n768\n00:33:11.390 --> 00:33:12.380\nsponsorship.\n\n769\n00:33:12.380 --> 00:33:17.480\nBut I think the cool thing is that it brings a better experience to the fans\n\n770\n00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:18.020\ntoo.\n\n771\n00:33:18.020 --> 00:33:21.440\nIt's not just us sticking a banner in front of you and telling you to buy whoop\n\n772\n00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:21.660\n.\n\n773\n00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:23.380\nIt's like, hey, this is pretty cool.\n\n774\n00:33:23.380 --> 00:33:26.940\nThis is the actual heart rate of this person under a lot of stress.\n\n775\n00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:27.940\nI love it.\n\n776\n00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:29.260\nIt is super cool to watch.\n\n777\n00:33:29.260 --> 00:33:33.100\nEspecially when you're wearing a product and you've got a good sense of it.\n\n778\n00:33:33.100 --> 00:33:34.900\nSo I absolutely love it.\n\n779\n00:33:34.900 --> 00:33:38.180\nAnd I think your marketing has a tremendous look at the leader too.\n\n780\n00:33:38.180 --> 00:33:41.670\nI think that's always so important that you look like you've established the\n\n781\n00:33:41.670 --> 00:33:42.420\ncategory,\n\n782\n00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:44.940\nyou're it, and you look that way.\n\n783\n00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:46.700\nHow involved do you get in that?\n\n784\n00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:50.910\nWhen you're involved, I can tell you it was an orientation again going back to\n\n785\n00:33:50.910 --> 00:33:52.940\n2011, 2012\n\n786\n00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:56.590\nwhen I was starting the companies that I believed that the company that would\n\n787\n00:33:56.590 --> 00:33:57.500\nultimately own\n\n788\n00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:04.300\nhealth monitoring would grow up to look a lot more like Nike than IBM.\n\n789\n00:34:04.300 --> 00:34:10.320\nI thought that health monitoring needed to be cool, to be a mass market adopted\n\n790\n00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:11.180\nthing.\n\n791\n00:34:11.180 --> 00:34:16.170\nAnd health monitors historically have kind of had a stigma associated with them\n\n792\n00:34:16.170 --> 00:34:16.260\n.\n\n793\n00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:18.810\nIf you see someone wearing a health monitor, it's almost like there's something\n\n794\n00:34:18.810 --> 00:34:19.100\nwrong\n\n795\n00:34:19.100 --> 00:34:20.420\nwith them.\n\n796\n00:34:20.420 --> 00:34:25.540\nAnd I wanted to develop a health monitor that was aspirational.\n\n797\n00:34:25.540 --> 00:34:29.280\nThe same way putting on a pair of Air Jordans is aspirational and says\n\n798\n00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:30.500\nsomething positive\n\n799\n00:34:30.500 --> 00:34:31.500\nabout you.\n\n800\n00:34:31.500 --> 00:34:34.140\nThat's how we wanted people to feel when they wear a whoop.\n\n801\n00:34:34.140 --> 00:34:38.580\nSo although whoop the product today is really something that's helping anyone\n\n802\n00:34:38.580 --> 00:34:39.340\nunderstand\n\n803\n00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:43.280\ntheir bodies will always have this anchoring in sports and athletics and\n\n804\n00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.420\nperformance because\n\n805\n00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:47.060\nit creates that aspirational feeling.\n\n806\n00:34:47.060 --> 00:34:48.340\nJust love what you're doing.\n\n807\n00:34:48.340 --> 00:34:51.780\nAnd you mentioned the importance of talent, which I couldn't agree more.\n\n808\n00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:55.980\nI mean, building people capabilities, job number one of any CEO.\n\n809\n00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:59.660\nSo you go from having 10 people, let's say now you have over 1,000.\n\n810\n00:34:59.660 --> 00:35:01.700\nI don't know how many people do you have now, Will?\n\n811\n00:35:01.700 --> 00:35:04.020\nWe're right around 650.\n\n812\n00:35:04.020 --> 00:35:08.220\nSo you're growing exponentially every year in terms of people development.\n\n813\n00:35:08.220 --> 00:35:14.270\nI talked to Neil Buschry of Workday and the first 500 people that he hired, he\n\n814\n00:35:14.270 --> 00:35:14.900\nand his\n\n815\n00:35:14.900 --> 00:35:17.980\nco-founder hired, they interviewed themselves.\n\n816\n00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:20.700\nHow involved do you get in the interview process now?\n\n817\n00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:22.620\nAnd what do you look for in your people?\n\n818\n00:35:22.620 --> 00:35:29.260\nWell, I interviewed probably everyone up until 100, 150 people.\n\n819\n00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:34.930\nAnd I became more concerned, I think, with establishing the right culture than\n\n820\n00:35:34.930 --> 00:35:35.460\nbeing\n\n821\n00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:40.180\nthe person who's saying go or no go on every person who walks in the door.\n\n822\n00:35:40.180 --> 00:35:44.740\nI mean, in a way, it's a nice idea that the CEO interviews everyone, but it's\n\n823\n00:35:44.740 --> 00:35:45.580\nalso wildly\n\n824\n00:35:45.580 --> 00:35:49.580\ninefficient and it also sort of implies to the rest of your team that you don't\n\n825\n00:35:49.580 --> 00:35:50.020\ntrust\n\n826\n00:35:50.020 --> 00:35:51.860\nthem to find great people.\n\n827\n00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:55.500\nSo how do you create a culture which is finding great people?\n\n828\n00:35:55.500 --> 00:36:01.530\nAnd the thing that I think really helped crystallize this is that whoop looks\n\n829\n00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:02.540\nfor people who\n\n830\n00:36:02.540 --> 00:36:07.300\nare at this intersection of high intensity and high humility.\n\n831\n00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:11.820\nAnd we've written about this internally, we're very key about this.\n\n832\n00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:16.020\nAnd high intensity is effectively looking for people who are hard driving, who\n\n833\n00:36:16.020 --> 00:36:16.100\nhave\n\n834\n00:36:16.100 --> 00:36:19.060\na deep expertise in a particular area.\n\n835\n00:36:19.060 --> 00:36:23.500\nAnd high humility is effectively looking for people who, despite that sort of\n\n836\n00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:24.580\nhard drive,\n\n837\n00:36:24.580 --> 00:36:27.500\nrecognize they don't have all the answers in the process.\n\n838\n00:36:27.500 --> 00:36:32.130\nAnd interestingly, those two things also are a little harder to find because\n\n839\n00:36:32.130 --> 00:36:32.500\nthey\n\n840\n00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:34.900\ntend to be inversely correlated.\n\n841\n00:36:34.900 --> 00:36:37.660\nPeople who are high intensity tend to be a little more arrogant.\n\n842\n00:36:37.660 --> 00:36:40.340\nSometimes people who are high humility can be a little more meek.\n\n843\n00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:45.500\nAnd so just looking for people who are hard driving and humble is a helpful\n\n844\n00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:46.180\nlens.\n\n845\n00:36:46.180 --> 00:36:50.710\nAnd in practice, what that does is it creates a culture where people are\n\n846\n00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:51.820\ncomfortable really\n\n847\n00:36:51.820 --> 00:36:54.260\ndebating and challenging each other.\n\n848\n00:36:54.260 --> 00:36:58.490\nWe talked before about having to be great at six or seven different things in a\n\n849\n00:36:58.490 --> 00:36:58.980\npretty\n\n850\n00:36:58.980 --> 00:37:00.500\nsmall company.\n\n851\n00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:03.900\nThese companies can be successful because they're great at one or two things.\n\n852\n00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:07.060\nWhen you've got that many different things that need to be awesome, you often\n\n853\n00:37:07.060 --> 00:37:07.420\nhave these\n\n854\n00:37:07.420 --> 00:37:09.620\nmeetings that are very cross functional.\n\n855\n00:37:09.620 --> 00:37:13.180\nHow do you send data from a whoop strap to an iPhone?\n\n856\n00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:17.820\nWell, that's going to require an iOS engineer, a marketer, a designer, a\n\n857\n00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:19.380\nhardware engineer,\n\n858\n00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:23.420\nall in the same room, figuring that one question out.\n\n859\n00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:25.870\nAnd what's going to happen is they're going to all come in with their own point\n\n860\n00:37:25.870 --> 00:37:26.220\nof view\n\n861\n00:37:26.220 --> 00:37:28.220\nand there's going to be a collision.\n\n862\n00:37:28.220 --> 00:37:33.160\nAnd what you want is not for people to be concerned with getting it their way,\n\n863\n00:37:33.160 --> 00:37:33.620\nbut for\n\n864\n00:37:33.620 --> 00:37:36.580\ncoming up with the best idea for the company.\n\n865\n00:37:36.580 --> 00:37:40.790\nAnd when you have people who are high intensity, high humility, I find that you\n\n866\n00:37:40.790 --> 00:37:41.740\n're more likely\n\n867\n00:37:41.740 --> 00:37:44.540\nto get to that.\n\n868\n00:37:44.540 --> 00:37:48.620\nAnd in turn, it also helps create this feeling of an idea of meritocracy where\n\n869\n00:37:48.620 --> 00:37:49.420\nthe best idea\n\n870\n00:37:49.420 --> 00:37:51.780\nreally can come from anywhere in the organization.\n\n871\n00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:55.140\nYou know, that's a great phrase, idea of meritocracy.\n\n872\n00:37:55.140 --> 00:37:58.450\nI've heard of meritocracy, but that's a great way to think about getting\n\n873\n00:37:58.450 --> 00:37:59.780\neverybody to contribute\n\n874\n00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:03.140\nand collaborate because today, I mean, the one thing humans can do that a\n\n875\n00:38:03.140 --> 00:38:03.940\ncomputer can't\n\n876\n00:38:03.940 --> 00:38:08.070\ndo is you can collaborate and, you know, getting your organization fired up to\n\n877\n00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:08.580\ndo that, it\n\n878\n00:38:08.580 --> 00:38:10.780\nhas to drive a lot of success.\n\n879\n00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:13.700\nYou know, I'm sure all your people wear whoop.\n\n880\n00:38:13.700 --> 00:38:17.280\nYou know, I guarantee when I work to Pepsi, everybody drank Pepsi and I'm sure\n\n881\n00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:17.860\neverybody\n\n882\n00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:18.860\nwears two.\n\n883\n00:38:18.860 --> 00:38:19.860\nEveryone wears a problem.\n\n884\n00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:22.500\nYou know, how's it affect how you run your company?\n\n885\n00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.860\nHow do you take advantage of that factor, do you?\n\n886\n00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:29.930\nWell, we certainly do a lot of company initiatives around our own product and\n\n887\n00:38:29.930 --> 00:38:30.540\nour data.\n\n888\n00:38:30.540 --> 00:38:36.220\nFor example, we have a sleep leaderboard and we have actually a competition in\n\n889\n00:38:36.220 --> 00:38:37.140\nthe company\n\n890\n00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:43.070\nwhere if you get over 85% of your sleep need for the month, you get a bonus as\n\n891\n00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:44.340\npart of your\n\n892\n00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:46.260\nyou know, pay stub.\n\n893\n00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:50.930\nSo we actually pay people to sleep at whoop, which I think is kind of a cool\n\n894\n00:38:50.930 --> 00:38:52.420\ncompany initiative.\n\n895\n00:38:52.420 --> 00:38:53.420\nI love that.\n\n896\n00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:55.740\nI'd be winning that base with my numbers.\n\n897\n00:38:55.740 --> 00:38:57.300\nI'd be off the charts.\n\n898\n00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:58.580\nYeah, I think you'd be doing just fine.\n\n899\n00:38:58.580 --> 00:39:00.940\nI think you'd get the sleep bonus.\n\n900\n00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:05.560\nWe've got a red recovery policy, which we kicked off kind of at the early start\n\n901\n00:39:05.560 --> 00:39:06.460\nof COVID because\n\n902\n00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:09.660\nwe also had people coming into the office, which is to say that if you had a\n\n903\n00:39:09.660 --> 00:39:10.460\nred recovery,\n\n904\n00:39:10.460 --> 00:39:12.700\nwe recommended that you stay home.\n\n905\n00:39:12.700 --> 00:39:16.250\nYou know, the thinking being if you have a red recovery, you're either run down\n\n906\n00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:16.700\nbecause\n\n907\n00:39:16.700 --> 00:39:20.340\nyou're you're getting sick or you may be more susceptible to getting sick.\n\n908\n00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:23.860\nSo it's in your interest in others to stay home.\n\n909\n00:39:23.860 --> 00:39:27.070\nAnd then of course, we've got lots of different fitness classes and data\n\n910\n00:39:27.070 --> 00:39:27.940\ncollections that\n\n911\n00:39:27.940 --> 00:39:29.380\nwe do as a team.\n\n912\n00:39:29.380 --> 00:39:33.140\nSo overall, I would say that that health and wellness is pretty core to our\n\n913\n00:39:33.140 --> 00:39:33.860\nculture.\n\n914\n00:39:33.860 --> 00:39:36.420\nYou've evolved as this entrepreneur.\n\n915\n00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:41.290\nAnd now you're talking about how you want to be the best possible CEO you can\n\n916\n00:39:41.290 --> 00:39:41.580\nbe.\n\n917\n00:39:41.580 --> 00:39:45.340\nHow much have you really enjoyed growing into that CEO role?\n\n918\n00:39:45.340 --> 00:39:47.340\nWe're what 31 now or 31?\n\n919\n00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:48.860\nYeah, that's fantastic.\n\n920\n00:39:48.860 --> 00:39:53.620\nWe got a lot of responsibility and you know, it is a 24/7 responsibility.\n\n921\n00:39:53.620 --> 00:39:56.180\nPeople are watching every step of the way.\n\n922\n00:39:56.180 --> 00:39:59.020\nHow much do you like that spotlight itself?\n\n923\n00:39:59.020 --> 00:40:00.740\nI've come to really enjoy it.\n\n924\n00:40:00.740 --> 00:40:05.300\nI also remember what it was like to feel like out of sorts in the job.\n\n925\n00:40:05.300 --> 00:40:09.660\nSo this feeling of growing into it also is rewarding.\n\n926\n00:40:09.660 --> 00:40:14.410\nAnd you know, I feel more comfortable now running a 650 person company that's\n\n927\n00:40:14.410 --> 00:40:14.900\nraised\n\n928\n00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:20.610\nover $400 million than I did running a 15 person company that raised 10 million\n\n929\n00:40:20.610 --> 00:40:20.740\n, you\n\n930\n00:40:20.740 --> 00:40:21.740\nknow.\n\n931\n00:40:21.740 --> 00:40:26.980\nAnd what I think that really says is just that being a CEO like anything else\n\n932\n00:40:26.980 --> 00:40:27.500\nis something\n\n933\n00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:33.540\nthat you have to work at and learn from and be very introspective about.\n\n934\n00:40:33.540 --> 00:40:37.570\nYou know, I've really tried to think about strengths and weaknesses and listen\n\n935\n00:40:37.570 --> 00:40:38.060\nto other\n\n936\n00:40:38.060 --> 00:40:42.480\nmembers of my management team and board members and you know, try to create a\n\n937\n00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:43.180\nsort of a learning\n\n938\n00:40:43.180 --> 00:40:45.780\nculture for myself around how to get better.\n\n939\n00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:47.140\nYou're 31.\n\n940\n00:40:47.140 --> 00:40:51.380\nSo you're obviously working with a lot of older board members, older people\n\n941\n00:40:51.380 --> 00:40:51.860\neven in\n\n942\n00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:53.820\nyour own company.\n\n943\n00:40:53.820 --> 00:40:57.380\nHas that ever created any kind of anxiety for you?\n\n944\n00:40:57.380 --> 00:41:00.100\nJust having to give direction to older people.\n\n945\n00:41:00.100 --> 00:41:05.100\nAnd if so, what advice could you give to other people who are rapid climbers,\n\n946\n00:41:05.100 --> 00:41:05.580\ntake it\n\n947\n00:41:05.580 --> 00:41:08.780\non more and more responsibility and have older people working for them?\n\n948\n00:41:08.780 --> 00:41:14.680\nYou know, I view at the end of the day, it's kind of a performance culture,\n\n949\n00:41:14.680 --> 00:41:15.540\nright?\n\n950\n00:41:15.540 --> 00:41:20.960\nAnd it doesn't matter really what your age is or what your skin color is or\n\n951\n00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:21.980\nyour gender\n\n952\n00:41:21.980 --> 00:41:23.780\nor your background.\n\n953\n00:41:23.780 --> 00:41:27.360\nOr you know, are you delivering on the expectations that you've set out for\n\n954\n00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.100\nyourself and your\n\n955\n00:41:28.100 --> 00:41:29.420\nteammates?\n\n956\n00:41:29.420 --> 00:41:33.400\nAnd I think if you look at it through that lens, it's a blank canvas and anyone\n\n957\n00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:33.700\ncan\n\n958\n00:41:33.700 --> 00:41:35.860\nbe great at any role.\n\n959\n00:41:35.860 --> 00:41:39.460\nYou know, you've had so much success and I know you've had some struggles along\n\n960\n00:41:39.460 --> 00:41:39.740\nthe\n\n961\n00:41:39.740 --> 00:41:40.740\nway.\n\n962\n00:41:40.740 --> 00:41:44.640\nAnd as you look back, Will, you know, what would be one day at Woop that you'd\n\n963\n00:41:44.640 --> 00:41:45.020\nlike\n\n964\n00:41:45.020 --> 00:41:47.580\nto live over?\n\n965\n00:41:47.580 --> 00:41:51.420\nOne day at Woop, I tomorrow, you know, I have to say, I wake up fired up to go\n\n966\n00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:51.620\nto\n\n967\n00:41:51.620 --> 00:41:52.620\nwork every day.\n\n968\n00:41:52.620 --> 00:41:54.860\nI feel like I've kind of created my dream job.\n\n969\n00:41:54.860 --> 00:41:59.060\nI get to work with, you know, the smartest people.\n\n970\n00:41:59.060 --> 00:42:02.670\nWe're serving everyone from the best athletes in the world to everyday\n\n971\n00:42:02.670 --> 00:42:03.540\nconsumers who are\n\n972\n00:42:03.540 --> 00:42:05.420\nimproving their health.\n\n973\n00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:07.860\nIt's an invigorating, invigorating job.\n\n974\n00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:11.060\nThis is pretty heady stuff, you know, that you have to really deal with.\n\n975\n00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:15.350\nYou're a founder of a really fast growing company that's really talked about in\n\n976\n00:42:15.350 --> 00:42:15.820\nso many\n\n977\n00:42:15.820 --> 00:42:17.420\ndifferent circles.\n\n978\n00:42:17.420 --> 00:42:23.100\nBezos, Musk, all these different founders, you know, how do you stay grounded\n\n979\n00:42:23.100 --> 00:42:23.700\nand not\n\n980\n00:42:23.700 --> 00:42:25.820\neven get comparative to other people?\n\n981\n00:42:25.820 --> 00:42:28.100\nBecause you're obviously a very competitive guy.\n\n982\n00:42:28.100 --> 00:42:29.300\nNo question about that.\n\n983\n00:42:29.300 --> 00:42:30.300\nYeah.\n\n984\n00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:35.890\nBut it's not particularly productive to compare yourself to other entrepreneurs\n\n985\n00:42:35.890 --> 00:42:36.700\nor CEOs.\n\n986\n00:42:36.700 --> 00:42:41.520\nI especially did that again, going back to that younger version of myself that\n\n987\n00:42:41.520 --> 00:42:42.020\nwas trying\n\n988\n00:42:42.020 --> 00:42:43.020\nto find his footing.\n\n989\n00:42:43.020 --> 00:42:47.040\nYou know, I'd say to myself, oh, I bet, Phil and the blank famous CEO never had\n\n990\n00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:47.460\nto deal\n\n991\n00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:48.460\nwith this.\n\n992\n00:42:48.460 --> 00:42:52.470\nBut I don't think it's that productive because I think in part, when they\n\n993\n00:42:52.470 --> 00:42:53.380\nstarted, they were\n\n994\n00:42:53.380 --> 00:42:56.180\nwrestling through the same challenges you are.\n\n995\n00:42:56.180 --> 00:42:59.630\nAnd I think part of what's made those entrepreneurs so successful is they just\n\n996\n00:42:59.630 --> 00:43:01.660\nkept getting better.\n\n997\n00:43:01.660 --> 00:43:05.510\nAnd so that's just the lens that I try to apply back to myself is how can I\n\n998\n00:43:05.510 --> 00:43:06.340\nkeep getting\n\n999\n00:43:06.340 --> 00:43:07.700\na little better every day?\n\n1000\n00:43:07.700 --> 00:43:10.780\nAnd then sure, we'll wake up and see one day where that leaves me.\n\n1001\n00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:14.860\nBut you have to be very present as well.\n\n1002\n00:43:14.860 --> 00:43:16.500\nYou want to be in the meeting that you're at.\n\n1003\n00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:18.980\nWe're in this conversation that we're in.\n\n1004\n00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:22.940\nAnd I find when you start doing those sort of comparison points and whatnot, it\n\n1005\n00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:23.220\nsort\n\n1006\n00:43:23.220 --> 00:43:27.870\nof removes you from being present and it takes you to this unproductive mind\n\n1007\n00:43:27.870 --> 00:43:28.540\nspace.\n\n1008\n00:43:28.540 --> 00:43:32.060\nI've listened to your own podcast, Will, and I enjoy it very much.\n\n1009\n00:43:32.060 --> 00:43:33.060\nThank you.\n\n1010\n00:43:33.060 --> 00:43:37.260\nLast one I listened to was one with Justin Thomas, which was a lot of fun.\n\n1011\n00:43:37.260 --> 00:43:39.300\nWhy did you start your own podcast?\n\n1012\n00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:42.780\nAnd what have you learned from doing it with such top athletes?\n\n1013\n00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:46.510\nWell, you know, to your point earlier, one of the things that makes Woop unique\n\n1014\n00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:46.940\nis that\n\n1015\n00:43:46.940 --> 00:43:50.180\nwe have these really fascinating people who wear our product and get\n\n1016\n00:43:50.180 --> 00:43:51.140\nperformance gains\n\n1017\n00:43:51.140 --> 00:43:52.140\nout of it.\n\n1018\n00:43:52.140 --> 00:43:59.260\nWe also like being able to tie Woop to performance in that aspirational place.\n\n1019\n00:43:59.260 --> 00:44:03.380\nI realized, you know, I was having these conversations with these fascinating\n\n1020\n00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:04.340\npeople just one on\n\n1021\n00:44:04.340 --> 00:44:07.420\none and listening to things they were doing with our technology.\n\n1022\n00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:10.440\nI was saying, wow, it'd be so interesting if other people heard these\n\n1023\n00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:11.620\nconversations.\n\n1024\n00:44:11.620 --> 00:44:15.060\nAnd so that was really the starting point for it.\n\n1025\n00:44:15.060 --> 00:44:17.700\nAnd I said, let's do 10 of these and see how it goes.\n\n1026\n00:44:17.700 --> 00:44:20.220\nAnd so now, of course, we're on like 140.\n\n1027\n00:44:20.220 --> 00:44:23.140\nAnd a lot of them I've hosted.\n\n1028\n00:44:23.140 --> 00:44:27.550\nI would say one thing I've really loved about doing them is, and I wonder how\n\n1029\n00:44:27.550 --> 00:44:28.220\nthis is for\n\n1030\n00:44:28.220 --> 00:44:31.820\nyou, but I found it's made me just a better listener.\n\n1031\n00:44:31.820 --> 00:44:36.300\nYou know, you have to really listen to your guest when you're doing a podcast\n\n1032\n00:44:36.300 --> 00:44:36.820\nin order\n\n1033\n00:44:36.820 --> 00:44:38.580\nto make it interesting, right?\n\n1034\n00:44:38.580 --> 00:44:42.300\nAnd depth over breadth, I think, is what makes something memorable.\n\n1035\n00:44:42.300 --> 00:44:46.820\nSo that's probably the thing I've personally taken the most away from it.\n\n1036\n00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:51.750\nI would also say that just listening to these world-class performers talk about\n\n1037\n00:44:51.750 --> 00:44:52.340\nperformance.\n\n1038\n00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:54.260\nIt can't help but rub off on you.\n\n1039\n00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:58.300\nYou're just sort of like left thinking about ways that you can perform better.\n\n1040\n00:44:58.300 --> 00:45:01.340\nSo those are things that I would say I've taken from it.\n\n1041\n00:45:01.340 --> 00:45:04.530\nAnd you know, I didn't have very grateful that I get to spend time with these\n\n1042\n00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:05.060\npeople.\n\n1043\n00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:09.140\nI mean, I'm sure for you, it's awesome to just get to do these conversations.\n\n1044\n00:45:09.140 --> 00:45:10.140\nAbsolutely.\n\n1045\n00:45:10.140 --> 00:45:12.420\nYou know, I've always been a big time learner.\n\n1046\n00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:16.700\nAnd so I love listening to people, you know, it's always been a fantastic way\n\n1047\n00:45:16.700 --> 00:45:17.740\nfor me to\n\n1048\n00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:22.390\nincrease my IQ points by having best practice chats like I'm having with you\n\n1049\n00:45:22.390 --> 00:45:22.900\nhere.\n\n1050\n00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:26.000\nI'd always pick up a couple of things and want to go back and really make it\n\n1051\n00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:26.580\nhappen.\n\n1052\n00:45:26.580 --> 00:45:30.520\nAnd the other thing that I feel gives me a lot of joy to bring our listeners,\n\n1053\n00:45:30.520 --> 00:45:30.980\npeople\n\n1054\n00:45:30.980 --> 00:45:35.740\nlike yourself, because people don't have the access to people that I have\n\n1055\n00:45:35.740 --> 00:45:36.700\naccess to.\n\n1056\n00:45:36.700 --> 00:45:40.490\nAnd so this is one of the things I'm doing in this chapter of my life is really\n\n1057\n00:45:40.490 --> 00:45:40.980\ntrying\n\n1058\n00:45:40.980 --> 00:45:44.510\nto give people access to leaders that they otherwise could never have basically\n\n1059\n00:45:44.510 --> 00:45:44.860\nlevel\n\n1060\n00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:48.110\nthe playing field, you know, so that you can talk to a will on that or you can\n\n1061\n00:45:48.110 --> 00:45:48.540\ntalk to\n\n1062\n00:45:48.540 --> 00:45:51.420\na Jamie Diamond or you can talk to a Tom Brady.\n\n1063\n00:45:51.420 --> 00:45:53.500\nAnd you know, it's been fascinating for me.\n\n1064\n00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:54.980\nYou know, this has been so much fun.\n\n1065\n00:45:54.980 --> 00:45:58.380\nI always do a lightning round will and I'd love to do one with you.\n\n1066\n00:45:58.380 --> 00:45:59.820\nOkay, let's do it.\n\n1067\n00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:01.820\nWhat three words best describe you?\n\n1068\n00:46:01.820 --> 00:46:09.930\nWell, I try to become, I think most people would say I'm ambitious, persistent,\n\n1069\n00:46:09.930 --> 00:46:10.140\ntry to\n\n1070\n00:46:10.140 --> 00:46:11.140\nbe humble.\n\n1071\n00:46:11.140 --> 00:46:14.780\nThose are at least the first few words that came to mind.\n\n1072\n00:46:14.780 --> 00:46:17.620\nI figured you'd be humbled and intense for sure.\n\n1073\n00:46:17.620 --> 00:46:21.420\nYeah, I kind of have to.\n\n1074\n00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:26.180\nIf you could be one person for a day, who would it be beside yourself and why?\n\n1075\n00:46:26.180 --> 00:46:28.220\nWhat a fun question.\n\n1076\n00:46:28.220 --> 00:46:35.020\nI would want to be the president of the United States.\n\n1077\n00:46:35.020 --> 00:46:39.980\nI think it'd be fascinating to see what that's like in a 24 hour cycle.\n\n1078\n00:46:39.980 --> 00:46:43.630\nWell, you've got plenty of time to get some experience so that we can all vote\n\n1079\n00:46:43.630 --> 00:46:44.180\nfor you.\n\n1080\n00:46:44.180 --> 00:46:45.860\nI appreciate that.\n\n1081\n00:46:45.860 --> 00:46:48.460\nWhat's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n1082\n00:46:48.460 --> 00:46:54.570\nBiggest pet peeve I think is lack of follow up or, you know, circumstances\n\n1083\n00:46:54.570 --> 00:46:55.780\nwhere you're\n\n1084\n00:46:55.780 --> 00:47:01.580\nengaging with someone who you perceive as not hard working, you know.\n\n1085\n00:47:01.580 --> 00:47:05.600\nIt's one thing to go after a problem and do it wrong half a dozen different\n\n1086\n00:47:05.600 --> 00:47:06.460\nways because\n\n1087\n00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:07.620\nit's a hard problem.\n\n1088\n00:47:07.620 --> 00:47:12.030\nBut if you feel like you're working with people who aren't sort of driving at\n\n1089\n00:47:12.030 --> 00:47:12.420\nit and\n\n1090\n00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:16.620\ndriving towards the solution, that to me is really frustrating.\n\n1091\n00:47:16.620 --> 00:47:20.120\nAnd frankly, I don't really encounter it because I get to be surrounded by hard\n\n1092\n00:47:20.120 --> 00:47:20.940\ndriving people\n\n1093\n00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:22.440\nall day.\n\n1094\n00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:26.100\nTell us something about you that few people would know.\n\n1095\n00:47:26.100 --> 00:47:28.460\nSomething about me that few people would know.\n\n1096\n00:47:28.460 --> 00:47:33.300\nWell, let's see, Woop is my first full time job.\n\n1097\n00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:35.660\nSome people are always like, it's the first company to start.\n\n1098\n00:47:35.660 --> 00:47:38.460\nIt's actually my first full time job.\n\n1099\n00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:42.900\nOne other fun one is I play hours of speed chess on my phone.\n\n1100\n00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:46.540\nSo I'll play these little three minute games on my phone.\n\n1101\n00:47:46.540 --> 00:47:50.060\nI got to hook you up with my buddy, Larry Fitzgerald.\n\n1102\n00:47:50.060 --> 00:47:51.380\nYou guys could really go after it.\n\n1103\n00:47:51.380 --> 00:47:52.380\nHe loves that stuff.\n\n1104\n00:47:52.380 --> 00:47:53.380\nLarry's a chess guy?\n\n1105\n00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:54.380\nOh, he loves it.\n\n1106\n00:47:54.380 --> 00:47:55.380\nHe loves it.\n\n1107\n00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:58.120\nI've already told them I'm going to beat them in golfs and I got to try to beat\n\n1108\n00:47:58.120 --> 00:47:58.380\nthem\n\n1109\n00:47:58.380 --> 00:47:59.820\nin chess.\n\n1110\n00:47:59.820 --> 00:48:03.500\nSo what's your biggest fear?\n\n1111\n00:48:03.500 --> 00:48:06.830\nI don't know if it's a fear, but it's something that drives me, which is like\n\n1112\n00:48:06.830 --> 00:48:07.460\nliving up to\n\n1113\n00:48:07.460 --> 00:48:08.660\npotential.\n\n1114\n00:48:08.660 --> 00:48:14.310\nI think I'm really excited by the stage that I'm at in life and the people I\n\n1115\n00:48:14.310 --> 00:48:15.260\nget to work\n\n1116\n00:48:15.260 --> 00:48:16.540\nwith.\n\n1117\n00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:22.480\nAnd so I'm kind of at this phase of saying to myself, don't make unforced\n\n1118\n00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:23.100\nerrors.\n\n1119\n00:48:23.100 --> 00:48:26.620\nKeep driving and see where that takes you.\n\n1120\n00:48:26.620 --> 00:48:28.860\nWell, do you have any hidden talents?\n\n1121\n00:48:28.860 --> 00:48:31.060\nHidden talents.\n\n1122\n00:48:31.060 --> 00:48:36.310\nWell, you know, I feel decent about my golf game actually given the time\n\n1123\n00:48:36.310 --> 00:48:37.420\ncommitment of\n\n1124\n00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:42.780\nstarting a company, the low single digit handicapper, which is pretty good.\n\n1125\n00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:44.060\nAbsolutely.\n\n1126\n00:48:44.060 --> 00:48:49.620\nYou mentioned earlier, Woop being a wearable monitor that could help you stay\n\n1127\n00:48:49.620 --> 00:48:50.300\none step\n\n1128\n00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:51.340\nahead.\n\n1129\n00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:54.820\nWhen you think about that, what's your favorite Woop story?\n\n1130\n00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:59.040\nI gave you my little testimonial, but when you think back, what's your favorite\n\n1131\n00:48:59.040 --> 00:48:59.220\nWoop\n\n1132\n00:48:59.220 --> 00:49:03.620\nstory you like to tell about the impact of your product?\n\n1133\n00:49:03.620 --> 00:49:04.620\nYou know, I'm grateful.\n\n1134\n00:49:04.620 --> 00:49:08.060\nI've gotten to hear so many amazing stories like this.\n\n1135\n00:49:08.060 --> 00:49:13.820\nOne more recently, you know, there was a man who was looking at his Woop data.\n\n1136\n00:49:13.820 --> 00:49:16.420\nHis heart rate was way out of whack.\n\n1137\n00:49:16.420 --> 00:49:21.990\nHe was in the red and he was having chest pain and Woop sort of alerted him\n\n1138\n00:49:21.990 --> 00:49:22.860\nthat something\n\n1139\n00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:24.060\nwas up.\n\n1140\n00:49:24.060 --> 00:49:30.940\nHe went to go to the doctor and it turned out he was having a heart attack.\n\n1141\n00:49:30.940 --> 00:49:34.220\nAnd you know, his words aren't my, Woop saved his life.\n\n1142\n00:49:34.220 --> 00:49:37.700\nThat was pretty powerful hearing that story.\n\n1143\n00:49:37.700 --> 00:49:41.900\nWe've now had probably dozens of stories like on the Save the Life spectrum,\n\n1144\n00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:42.900\nwhich is pretty\n\n1145\n00:49:42.900 --> 00:49:44.980\nremarkable.\n\n1146\n00:49:44.980 --> 00:49:51.150\nWe've helped a lot of folks in military tactical space work through PTSD and\n\n1147\n00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:52.220\nlike not being\n\n1148\n00:49:52.220 --> 00:49:55.700\nable to sleep and real emotional trauma.\n\n1149\n00:49:55.700 --> 00:50:00.660\nThose have been incredibly powerful stories, obviously helping, you know, brave\n\n1150\n00:50:00.660 --> 00:50:01.160\nmen and\n\n1151\n00:50:01.160 --> 00:50:03.020\nwomen who have served our country too.\n\n1152\n00:50:03.020 --> 00:50:04.980\nSo that's pretty awesome.\n\n1153\n00:50:04.980 --> 00:50:10.040\nDuring COVID, we would put out research on elevated respiratory rate being a\n\n1154\n00:50:10.040 --> 00:50:10.860\npredictor\n\n1155\n00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:12.980\nof COVID-19.\n\n1156\n00:50:12.980 --> 00:50:17.410\nOne golfer, Nick Watney, was able to use that to predict that he had COVID-19\n\n1157\n00:50:17.410 --> 00:50:19.060\nand he effectively\n\n1158\n00:50:19.060 --> 00:50:21.540\ndidn't play in a golf tournament as a consequence.\n\n1159\n00:50:21.540 --> 00:50:24.630\nAnd the next thing we know every player on the PGA tour was wearing Woop\n\n1160\n00:50:24.630 --> 00:50:25.740\nbecause of that.\n\n1161\n00:50:25.740 --> 00:50:29.020\nAnd then we did all these partnerships with sports teams around it.\n\n1162\n00:50:29.020 --> 00:50:34.100\nAnd now we've probably had tens of thousands of people on Woop report that they\n\n1163\n00:50:34.100 --> 00:50:34.540\ngot an\n\n1164\n00:50:34.540 --> 00:50:39.500\nearly indicator that they had COVID from their Woop data.\n\n1165\n00:50:39.500 --> 00:50:43.370\nAnd you know, as a result, I've gotten the message like, oh, I didn't go to my\n\n1166\n00:50:43.370 --> 00:50:44.180\nThanksgiving\n\n1167\n00:50:44.180 --> 00:50:47.060\ndinner because Woop told me something might be up.\n\n1168\n00:50:47.060 --> 00:50:49.780\nAnd sure enough, I tested, you know, I'm positive for COVID.\n\n1169\n00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:52.780\nSo those are pretty powerful stories.\n\n1170\n00:50:52.780 --> 00:50:53.940\nThat's great.\n\n1171\n00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:58.500\nAnd as I understand it, you're recently married.\n\n1172\n00:50:58.500 --> 00:51:01.260\nHow have you integrated that into your jam-packed life?\n\n1173\n00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:04.540\nWell, my wife, Laley, is also an entrepreneur, so that helps.\n\n1174\n00:51:04.540 --> 00:51:06.900\nSo she's building a fashion line.\n\n1175\n00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:11.800\nAnd she's, I think, as a consequence, fairly patient with the fact that some,\n\n1176\n00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:12.540\nyou know,\n\n1177\n00:51:12.540 --> 00:51:16.650\nsome moments I might be thinking about business are not as present as I should\n\n1178\n00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:16.940\nbe.\n\n1179\n00:51:16.940 --> 00:51:22.800\nI think also just having someone in your life who's a rock and very stable and\n\n1180\n00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:23.620\nloving, you\n\n1181\n00:51:23.620 --> 00:51:29.820\nknow, is critical to being able to be successful in business or anything else.\n\n1182\n00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:34.300\nSo, you know, I think I've got a very healthy marriage, very happy marriage.\n\n1183\n00:51:34.300 --> 00:51:35.660\nAnd we don't have any kids yet.\n\n1184\n00:51:35.660 --> 00:51:39.900\nI'm sure that'll, that'll shake things up for us when we do.\n\n1185\n00:51:39.900 --> 00:51:40.900\nYeah.\n\n1186\n00:51:40.900 --> 00:51:44.300\nWell, you know, I've been married to my wife 47 years, Wendy.\n\n1187\n00:51:44.300 --> 00:51:45.300\nWow.\n\n1188\n00:51:45.300 --> 00:51:46.740\nIt's great to have a rock.\n\n1189\n00:51:46.740 --> 00:51:47.740\nYeah, I have a question.\n\n1190\n00:51:47.740 --> 00:51:50.300\nI'm going to wrap this up with the last question, New York, as I know you're a\n\n1191\n00:51:50.300 --> 00:51:51.820\nbusy guy.\n\n1192\n00:51:51.820 --> 00:51:55.580\nWhat three bits of advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs and leaders?\n\n1193\n00:51:55.580 --> 00:52:00.740\nWell, I think the, I think the first is to really focus on solving a problem.\n\n1194\n00:52:00.740 --> 00:52:02.780\nI know we talked about that earlier.\n\n1195\n00:52:02.780 --> 00:52:07.800\nI sometimes meet young entrepreneurs who are just very enthusiastic to start a\n\n1196\n00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:08.700\ncompany,\n\n1197\n00:52:08.700 --> 00:52:12.580\nbut maybe you're less so focused on, on why they want to start that company.\n\n1198\n00:52:12.580 --> 00:52:15.590\nYou know, it's, it's more about the financial upside, I think, than the actual\n\n1199\n00:52:15.590 --> 00:52:16.140\nproblem.\n\n1200\n00:52:16.140 --> 00:52:20.750\nSo I think being hyper focused on solving a problem, I think surrounding\n\n1201\n00:52:20.750 --> 00:52:21.540\nyourself with\n\n1202\n00:52:21.540 --> 00:52:27.720\npeople who are complimentary to you, you know, offering different skills,\n\n1203\n00:52:27.720 --> 00:52:29.380\ndifferent perspectives\n\n1204\n00:52:29.380 --> 00:52:33.140\nthan, than your own, and therefore complimenting what you're trying to build.\n\n1205\n00:52:33.140 --> 00:52:35.980\nAnd then, you know, the last thing is, is just keep going.\n\n1206\n00:52:35.980 --> 00:52:39.410\nThere's going to be good days, there's going to be really bad days, and you got\n\n1207\n00:52:39.410 --> 00:52:39.860\nto just\n\n1208\n00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:40.940\nkeep going.\n\n1209\n00:52:40.940 --> 00:52:44.850\nAnd if your business doesn't run out of money and you don't quit, at some point\n\n1210\n00:52:44.850 --> 00:52:45.460\nyou're going\n\n1211\n00:52:45.460 --> 00:52:46.460\nto be successful.\n\n1212\n00:52:46.460 --> 00:52:50.460\nWell, well, there's no doubt that you're definitely on your, your way.\n\n1213\n00:52:50.460 --> 00:52:54.380\nYou're not only keep going, but it's obviously you're going to keep growing\n\n1214\n00:52:54.380 --> 00:52:54.980\nbecause you've\n\n1215\n00:52:54.980 --> 00:52:58.660\ngot that mindset that you're going to make yourself be the best leader you can\n\n1216\n00:52:58.660 --> 00:52:59.220\npossibly\n\n1217\n00:52:59.220 --> 00:53:00.220\nbe.\n\n1218\n00:53:00.220 --> 00:53:03.770\nAnd it's been a real thrill and honor to have this conversation with you and\n\n1219\n00:53:03.770 --> 00:53:04.460\nthank you for\n\n1220\n00:53:04.460 --> 00:53:05.460\nyour time.\n\n1221\n00:53:05.460 --> 00:53:06.460\nWell, thanks, David.\n\n1222\n00:53:06.460 --> 00:53:09.340\nVery appreciative for, for having me on and I really enjoyed it.\n\n1223\n00:53:09.340 --> 00:53:21.940\nWell, that was just an absolute great conversation with Will.\n\n1224\n00:53:21.940 --> 00:53:25.900\nYou know, his measurement of the vital few makes so much sense.\n\n1225\n00:53:25.900 --> 00:53:29.690\nWhen I was running young brands, we were focused on operations at the store\n\n1226\n00:53:29.690 --> 00:53:30.300\nlevel.\n\n1227\n00:53:30.300 --> 00:53:31.300\nWhat were the key measures?\n\n1228\n00:53:31.300 --> 00:53:34.620\nWell, we had this acronym was kind of fun, but it's easy to remember.\n\n1229\n00:53:34.620 --> 00:53:40.010\nIt's called champs, cleanliness, hospitality, accuracy, maintenance, product\n\n1230\n00:53:40.010 --> 00:53:40.820\nquality and\n\n1231\n00:53:40.820 --> 00:53:41.980\nspeed.\n\n1232\n00:53:41.980 --> 00:53:47.020\nAnd we measured those relentlessly in our restaurants and everybody knew it was\n\n1233\n00:53:47.020 --> 00:53:47.740\nimportant\n\n1234\n00:53:47.740 --> 00:53:52.020\nbecause it led to great customer satisfaction.\n\n1235\n00:53:52.020 --> 00:53:53.340\nThat's the restaurant business.\n\n1236\n00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:55.580\nAnd we just heard Will talk about whoop.\n\n1237\n00:53:55.580 --> 00:53:59.640\nThey made the decision for their business to focus on a few key things, strain,\n\n1238\n00:53:59.640 --> 00:54:00.220\nrecovery\n\n1239\n00:54:00.220 --> 00:54:01.580\nand sleep.\n\n1240\n00:54:01.580 --> 00:54:04.890\nIf they would try to give data for much more than that, it'd be overwhelming\n\n1241\n00:54:04.890 --> 00:54:05.460\nand their\n\n1242\n00:54:05.460 --> 00:54:08.660\ncustomers wouldn't know how to act on the information.\n\n1243\n00:54:08.660 --> 00:54:12.950\nBut by keeping it simple, they're retaining their customers and adding new ones\n\n1244\n00:54:12.950 --> 00:54:14.380\nlike crazy.\n\n1245\n00:54:14.380 --> 00:54:15.940\nSo what's it for you?\n\n1246\n00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:20.740\nAs you kick off the new year, what are the vital things you're going to track?\n\n1247\n00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:25.180\nPerhaps it's a few key pieces of data you need to make important decisions.\n\n1248\n00:54:25.180 --> 00:54:28.490\nPerhaps it's some personal objectives you have that you're really going to get\n\n1249\n00:54:28.490 --> 00:54:28.860\ncommitted\n\n1250\n00:54:28.860 --> 00:54:30.580\nto this year and make it happen.\n\n1251\n00:54:30.580 --> 00:54:32.140\nAnd well, let me tell you something.\n\n1252\n00:54:32.140 --> 00:54:36.490\nIf you measure it, you'll make it happen because you'll know exactly where you\n\n1253\n00:54:36.490 --> 00:54:36.980\nstand.\n\n1254\n00:54:36.980 --> 00:54:41.450\nAnd if you're motivated, you'll do the things that you've got to do to make it\n\n1255\n00:54:41.450 --> 00:54:42.140\nhappen.\n\n1256\n00:54:42.140 --> 00:54:44.380\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1257\n00:54:44.380 --> 00:54:47.530\nWhat we learned today is that the great leaders have learned to measure the\n\n1258\n00:54:47.530 --> 00:54:49.060\nvital few.\n\n1259\n00:54:49.060 --> 00:54:53.680\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead, where every\n\n1260\n00:54:53.680 --> 00:54:54.420\nThursday,\n\n1261\n00:54:54.420 --> 00:54:58.460\nyou get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world.\n\n1262\n00:54:58.460 --> 00:55:02.490\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1263\n00:55:02.490 --> 00:55:03.220\napply to your\n\n1264\n00:55:03.220 --> 00:55:07.340\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1265\n00:55:07.340 --> 00:55:08.140\nSee you next week.\n\n1266\n00:55:08.140 --> 00:55:18.140\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1267\n00:55:18.140 --> 00:55:28.140\n[BLANK_AUDIO]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen. And while I interview some of the best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply and develop into being a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Now, today's guest is will Ahmed, the founder and CEO of whoop, a wearable fitness tracker that measures a few key metrics to help top athletes and even guys like me achieve peak performance. Now, I'm a big fan of this company. And in fact, I'm wearing my whoop this very second, and you're gonna learn that will is an incredibly sharp young leader. Believe it or not, he's in his early 30s, running a company that was recently valued at $3.6 billion dollars. Now, running a company at that level requires a whole other level of discipline, when it comes to focusing in on what truly matters. If you want to keep your business healthy. No matter what size of company you lead, it's imperative that you measure it and keep your eyes on a few vital metrics at all times. Now, it's so easy to get head fake by all the data that's out there, all the ideas, all the feedback that gets thrown to you from every direction, the effective leaders I know, stay focused, they know what to measure what will have the greatest impact on the business, and they make their decisions based off of those metrics. The fact that wills already mastered this skill at such an early age is really impressive, some leaders never get it. So here we are on the first episode of 2022, and you're about to get some insights that I know will help you get this year off to a great start. So let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my new friend and soon to be yours. Will Ahmed.

Well, thanks so much for just taking the time to be with us today.

Will Ahmed 2:08

Thanks for having me, David.

David Novak 2:10

You know, the last time I met you, we were at Shinnecock and you are driving the ball well over 300 yards on a urine animal.

Will Ahmed 2:16

That was a good day.

David Novak 2:18

I would say so. You know, I told you about my mission, which is to make the world a better place by developing better leaders tell us a little bit about whooping the mission that you're on?

Will Ahmed 2:29

Yeah, our our mission at whoop is to unlock human performance, which is to say that we believe every individual has an inner potential that you can tap into if you can better understand their bodies. And and we've built wearable technology that measures everything around sleep and recovery and strain and gives people information that they can use to improve their health. So I got into this space. About 1012 years ago, I was I was personally I was into sports and exercise, David. So I grew up playing about a dozen different sports and ended up playing squash while I was at Harvard. And my experience of being a college athlete, you know, led me down this rabbit hole of trying to understand physiology and performance and training, I was somebody used to overtrain as a college athlete, and I got very interested in what you could measure about the body to predict overtraining, or, you know, predict under training, what why do some athletes get injured and other stone? What does it mean to peak on a given day? These were just questions that I was asking myself as a student at Harvard, and I read something like 500 medical papers while I was in school and, and wrote a paper around how to continuously measure the human body, that work really became the foundation for whoop. And in the last 10 years, we've gone from working with the best athletes in the world to now working with everyday consumers.

David Novak 3:52

Well I don't know if I'm one of the best athletes in the world, but I am an everyday consumer and I gotta tell you something that you know, I'm a big testimonial for your product and Egon Durbin who's a good friend of mine and he's the CO CEO of Silver Lake you know, I was telling him that I was really having a hard time sleeping in particularly but you know, before big golf events and he said you know, I can take care of this. So the next thing I shows up at my door, I now have my whoop, wearable okay? And he also sent me this cooler cooler pad that I put on my bed to make you know to have my bed be cooler and because you recommend you know sleeping in cool rooms for sure. I've gone from basically averaging about five hours asleep to over eight hours and be in recovery mode. And you know, I can't tell you how much it has really changed my life for the better. I just got my monthly report from whoop and you know, everything that should be doing well is doing well. So thank you very much. Well, it

Will Ahmed 4:51

never gets old to hear stories like that. You really are a good testimonial five hours to eight hours. That's like a life changing amount of sleep.

David Novak 4:58

Absolutely. And you know, sleep Something that we all do. So I just wanted to ask you something, you know, how should we think about sleep as a typical consumer?

Will Ahmed 5:06

Well, I think sleep is is pretty misunderstood. You know, if you ask someone who doesn't measure their sleep, how many hours of sleep they got last night, what they'll probably do is they'll say, Okay, well, I want to bed at 11. And I woke up at six. So I got seven hours of sleep. And the problem with that math, as you know, David is it just means that person spent seven hours in bed? And the question is, within that seven hours, how much time did they spend getting quality sleep? Now, sleep staging can be periods of time when you're awake, periods of time, when you're in light sleep, periods of time in REM sleep and periods of time and slow wave sleep, awake and light, you don't really get any value for those don't do much for you. Whereas rem and slow wave, that's where really all the magic happens. REM sleep is when your mind is repairing. So that's when you go into deep dreaming state. If you're someone who never has dreams, maybe you're not getting enough REM sleep, slow wave sleep is when your body produces about 95% of its human growth hormone. So there's this idea that you get stronger in the gym, or practicing or exercising, you're actually for the most part breaking muscles down, you get stronger during slow wave sleep, when your body is actually repairing them. So let's go back to that person who spent seven hours in bed, that person could have gotten a total of 30 minutes of REM and slow wave sleep, or they could have gotten as much as five and a half hours of REM and slow wave sleep. And there's such an ocean between those two numbers, like the person who's only getting about 30 minutes of REM and slow wave sleep is almost definitely dealing with a variety of problems in their life. And the person who's getting hours and hours of REM and slow wave sleep is probably functioning at extremely high level. So the question for people to ask themselves is how can they go from being someone who gets less rem and slow wave sleep to more? The bottom line, of course is first you need to start measuring some of this stuff before you can start managing it.

David Novak 7:01

Yeah, absolutely. And you were talking about, you know, you're at Harvard. And you're, you're getting an active interest in the in the body and how it works and performance. And but when did you actually have that aha moment to start whoop?

Will Ahmed 7:15

Well, I think I started whoop, before I even realized that I was I was building a company. I mean, I became an entrepreneur, before I knew what an entrepreneur was. I just became deeply obsessed with this problem. And the problem was, I don't understand what I'm doing in my body while I'm training. How do I know if I'm getting fitter? How do I know if I should train hard? How do I know if I shouldn't train at all. And the solution to that problem, I believed was actually understanding the other 20 hours of the day, there was a big overemphasis on understanding exercise, and understanding what was happening during practice and games. So I'd go out and talk to coaches. And I'd ask them, you know, what kind of technology would you want if you could have more technology. And more often than not, they kept coming back to? Well, I want more information on exercise, I want sweat analysis, I want video analysis, I want GPS information, I want to better understand the strain of workouts. But when I asked them about their problems, more often than not, they were talking about the fact that, you know, they have player availability issues, athletes are overtraining or they're getting injured. And so I thought there was a big mismatch between what the coaches were telling me the problems that they were describing, and the solutions that they were asking for. And there's an insight here for entrepreneurs to I think it's an entrepreneurs job to listen very carefully to your customers problems. But it's your job as the entrepreneur to ultimately figure out what those solutions are to those problems. And so the insight that I would say I had 10 years ago is that sleep and recovery played a much bigger and more important role in human performance than it was being given credit for.

David Novak 8:57

That's so interesting, because you know, the the entrepreneurs that I talked to, they intuitively know how important it is to solve the most important problems that occur in a category most often. And that sounds like exactly what you've done.

Will Ahmed 9:12

I think so I mean, I think that a lot of companies are built on, you know, something contrarian or some something maybe counterintuitive, that later turns out to be right. In the case of whoop, we believe that like sleep and recovery might be more important to performance than even training or anything else. And in 2010, that was a fairly, you know, counterintuitive point of view. It was kind of a period of more is more. And now it's I think the pendulum has come back the other way, where you see these huge pieces on sleep and recovery and how the world's best athletes are sleeping.

David Novak 9:46

Yeah, there's no question about that. And in fact, I wear an Apple watch, and I also wear this whoop, watch and you see all the commercials for Apple now where they're talking about heart rate different majors and you know why Will I wear both a watch and whoop?

Will Ahmed 10:02

Well, I look, I think Apple is a phenomenal company, we very intentionally didn't want to be a watch, because for one reason people don't wear two watches. And I have a lot of respect for the watchmakers out there. And I also have a lot of respect for Apple. And so, you know, we didn't view that our core function needed to be pushed notifications, or telling the time or allowing you to call an Uber or look at your email. But we did view that the core use case for whoop was to improve health and to do that in a world class way better than anyone else. That meant the most accurate product, the best coaching, the best interface. And by focusing on those areas, it led us down a much more minimalistic, I would say design for our hardware. And that's, I think, been been really good to us. At the end of the day, I think people will evaluate whether they should wear whoop or not purely through a lens of health. And today, we're proud to say that if you've been on whoop for a year, you have a lower resting heart rate, you have a higher heart rate variability, you're getting more sleep. So we're actually changing behavior and improving health. And I think that's the hardest thing to do in this space.

David Novak 11:12

Yeah, I think that's a powerful thing to be able to bring to the marketplace. And well, I think it's just amazing that you've simplified these measures, you know, how did you go about deciding what the three big things are that you're really going to measure because you can get overloaded in this area?

Will Ahmed 11:28

Well, I felt that the key thing you need to understand was strain and recovery in the sort of sense of balance, the the way that I felt you could tell someone what to do, or give them sort of actionable feedback. So looking forwards versus looking backwards, I thought that a lot of products did an okay job telling you what happened, but didn't necessarily tell you what to do next. And that's where part of the vision for whoop came in was to be an actionable tool. And if you look at the way that the products designed, a lot of it's trying to live a step ahead of you, the daily cycle is you wake up in the morning with a recovery score, you know, zero to 100%, red, yellow, green, that's telling you how much strain or stress you should put on your body. And then over the course of the day, you accumulate, you know, strain and whoop, will automatically measure it. And it'll tell you to keep going or to stop at some point. And then even at the end of the day, it whoop looks the strain that's accumulated on your body. And it'll tell you how much sleep you need for tonight to recover for tomorrow. And then of course, you get a new recovery score, and the whole thing restarts. So that's a daily cycle that's designed to kind of live a step ahead of you. There's also a weekly cycle that's looking at how you've your relationship between strain and recovery, how much sleep you're getting, what certain behaviors have been optimal. And then there's also a monthly cycle that's taking and looking at larger datasets. And it's saying, hey, on, on the nights where you reported taking melatonin, or sleeping in a cold room, or eating this type of food, you've performed better or worse. And so we've created effectively, three different feedback loops, you know, time based feedback loops, one's a daily cycle, one's a weekly cycle, one's a monthly cycle, there's even an annual cycle. And all of those are designed to provide different types of feedback with this lens towards how can you be healthier?

David Novak 13:20

You know, I just got my monthly report today, you know, there you go. It works extremely well, you know, and you become this entrepreneur, tell us about the first dollar you made? What was it like when he rang you up your first sale? And how did you feel about it?

Will Ahmed 13:35

You know, I don't think I ever felt that much pride in the first sale, because I was still so nervous about the technology. I mean, the technology that we were building, was, we had a bit of an existential problem, right? We were building technology that never been built before. And when you do that, that you have these questions to yourself of like, is it going to be able to deliver the vision? Is it going to live up to the hype of what we think we're actually creating here? So I remember in 2014, we started working with pro athletes, and two of our first 100 users were people like LeBron James, and Michael Phelps, who you could argue to the best in the world at time have to the best ever. And so it was incredibly gratifying to see these world class performers using technology that not that long ago was an idea in a dorm room. But at the same time, you know, he's hyper anxious about the fact that like, is it going to perform? Are they going to love it, or they're going to keep wearing it? And so I think that sort of balance or relentlessness, if you will, helped us continue iterating on the technology and driving forwards and of course, we went from these top individuals to leagues to, to now woop is a mainstream consumer product.

David Novak 14:49

I want to really now kind of dig into the real purpose of this program, which is how you go about leading and it's really hard to do that without going back and examining someone's upbringing. Tell us about your upbringing.

Will Ahmed 15:00

Yeah, I grew up on on Long Island, My father immigrated to this country when he was 22 years old from Egypt. So, you know, hard driving, charismatic, kind of street smart, you know, worked very hard, his whole career, rose the ranks and finance my mom, very different. You know, super well educated, went to Exeter and Princeton, brilliant writer, one was one of the best writers in her class, very book smart, more introverted, my father, more extroverted. And so I kind of saw through growing up with them as parents, to different filters to apply to the world. And, you know, one, which was sort of running through walls, the other, which was being deeply analytical. And I think that those sort of extremes were helpful for me and thinking about different ways to solve problems. And I was an only child as well. So I spent a lot of time around adults, which I think was helpful, too, in terms of being comfortable being around people who were older than me.

David Novak 16:05

That's interesting, because my daughter, Ashley is the only child and I think he grew up a little faster. We knew that only child. And when you think about your childhood, when you look back at it, is there a personal story that you recall, it really helps lay out the kind of leader that you've become,

Will Ahmed 16:19

I think, at least from my development, as a CEO, it's been really an iterative process where I've been trying to get a little bit better every day, I don't feel like you know, something happened. And that when I was 10 years old, that then became reflective of, of the CEO that I am today, I do appreciate a lot of the experiences that I had playing sports, I was captain of three teams in high school, I was captain of the Harvard squash team and college, I helped run a final club in college, you know, these experiences of leadership in different contexts, especially sports, I do think are helpful as you think about having a leadership role later in your career. And I think one of the more important things that I learned or developed in becoming a better leader was really focusing on on myself too, and focusing on how I was managing my own day to day emotions and personality.

David Novak 17:16

Well, who believed in you before you might have actually believed in yourself?

Will Ahmed 17:20

Well, that's a good question. I think I did operate with a fair amount of inner belief. I mean, obviously, my parents were very encouraging. In my development, I think I had, you know, great teachers along the way, I had great coaches along the way, I don't think I would have started a company at the age of 22, if I hadn't developed some sense of inner belief along the way. And, you know, I have to just be grateful for the fact that I was fortunate enough to go to good schools and have good friends. And I think, sort of an overall healthy upbringing, I will say that the sort of first year or two of building whoop, was, I would say, quite painful, and like, quite difficult, and, you know, emotionally quite draining, because I was learning what it meant to raise capital and run a business. And I also was running up against the fact that a lot of people didn't think what I was doing was going to be successful. And were telling me that. And so being told that you're going to fail from people that you admire or respect is a really painful feedback loop. I think I put up a real wall to negative feedback, you know, in my early 20s, while I was getting whoop off the ground, and it took years to sort of find how to bring negative feedback back in and actually turn it into a positive. How do you do that? Well, well, the insight I got along the way, was, you want to make sure you hear everything that people are saying you don't necessarily have to listen to it, I had gotten to a place where I felt like such a high percentage of the feedback I was getting in the early days of whoop was negative that it just felt like a better way to survive was going to be not listening to it for a while. And that can be an okay coping mechanism if you're a small company or a small team, but it's not productive if you're trying to grow into a large organization. That's a very dynamic organization. Another reason that I think I had this challenge is that my my self identity and the performance of whoop, I think were very tied up as one in the same. You know, I felt like if if whoop was having a good day, or whoop was succeeding, I was succeeding, if whoop was failing, I was failing. And that's not a healthy mindset, in part because it's also not real, like you can be operating well as a management team or as an individual. And for various circumstances or reasons the company may be working through challenges. The opposite is true to where you can be part of a business that's having explosive growth but you're personally really struggling or not keeping up and so I got to this place where I started to separate my own performance from that that accompany and that became a really healthy mechanism to also help me then bring on more forms of feedback and learning in my life. And that introspection and that sort of separation allowed me to ask myself, okay, how can I just get a little bit better every single day as a leader, as a CEO, as an entrepreneur? And, you know, the company's success and part followed from that?

David Novak 20:21

You know, it's funny, because when I look back on the ideas I've had, I didn't have any as big as whoop, okay. But I can tell you that originally, I would, if people had gave me that negative feedback, a lot of times, I would think they just don't get it, you know? Yeah. And then I realized that the first thing you have to do is figure out whether they're right or not. Yeah, you know, so you got to really understand that barrier that they're bringing up, and then you if you can dismiss it after you've thought about it makes a lot of sense. But I made a lot of mistakes. When I had that idea, hey, these people just don't get how brilliant my ideas?

Will Ahmed 20:57

I think that's absolutely right. And, and, you know, now, disagreement, or negative feedbacks, almost a source of excitement for me, because it, you know, allows you to ask that question, why do I think I'm right? Or why do I feel so strongly about XY and Z?

David Novak 21:13

You know, it's interesting as I listened to, you're obviously a self coach, and I've just written a book called take charge of you how, how self coaching can transform your life and career, and you seem to have a great sense of self awareness? What process do you use to get that kind of self awareness that allows you to self coach yourself, so that you can keep polishing the apple and get better and better?

Will Ahmed 21:37

Well, I think one of the best things I started doing in my life was meditating. And I did this hurt started about seven years ago, which was also around the same time that I felt like I had reached a point of crisis in building the company. And I, you know, we probably raised about $10 million or so at that point, which certainly felt like a lot of money, I'd probably had a team of 15 or 20 people. But I felt like I didn't really I wasn't in control, I felt out of balance, I felt like things were coming out of my mouth. And then I was realizing, I said, you kind of feel like you're in a constant state of reactiveness. And, and so I figured maybe learning how to meditate would help. And it really did. And it's something I've done every day now, for for seven, maybe eight years. And the process of meditation is a powerful one. And that, I think, it allows you to look at yourself in the third person, not just during the meditation, but kind of in the rest of your life. And so I now find throughout the day, there'll be these points where I hear a voice in my head where it's Oh, wills about to get angry or wills frustrate, or wills gonna say something before it actually happens. And, and that sort of ability to be a step ahead of yourself, rather than a step behind yourself. For me, it was life changing. And, of course, you know, it makes you happier, it makes you calmer. It makes you I would say steadier. That's another thing that I think is really underrated in leadership is having kind of a consistent effect. You don't want to be like, you know, up here one day and down here, the next you kind of want to have a steady hand, as good things are happening or bad things are happening. So all of those things, I think came in part from me doing this sort of work on myself and really thinking about strengths and weaknesses.

David Novak 23:29

You know, it's interesting, you know, I had a conversation with Kevin Johnson, who's the CEO of Starbucks, and he's a big believer in meditation. In fact, Ringo Starr, turned him on to somebody, you know, taught us pretty good to do is, so who taught you meditation? And you know, how much time do you spend meditating?

Will Ahmed 23:47

Well, I took a four day transcendental meditation course. And I think that I probably spend between 20 and 40 minutes a day meditating. It's a practice that takes about 22 minutes. So I do it every single morning, and then I would say, you know, a third of a third of the days, I'll do it in the afternoon.

David Novak 24:05

So you'll do 22 minutes in the afternoon as well. That's I think I could stomach the 22 minutes, the hour part, I think it'd be pretty hard for me to be able to do that, you know,

Will Ahmed 24:14

I've I've done it for an hour or longer, but to me, it's sort of diminishing returns at that point, or it becomes more about the end state is meditation. For me, I'm starting to optimize a lot of my life around being a great CEO and, and running a great company. So certain things that might be slightly more optimal for me, but are less optimal for being a CEO. I tend to shy away from

David Novak 24:38

make sense, you know, speaking to be a CEO, you had to really create a business model. Tell us about your business model and what you hope to accomplish with it.

Will Ahmed 24:47

It's a great question. I think when you start a company, you don't necessarily know all the things you're going to innovate on. You know, for us, it was pretty clear we were going to innovate around health, monitoring and technology. I didn't think we were going to innovate around the business model itself for selling that technology. But that was one of the learnings along the way. In 2017, we entered the consumer market after working with pro athletes and teams for years, David, and we sold whoop for $500. It was a one time fee. And it was sort of equivalent to an expensive Garmin watch. And what we saw over the course of the next 12 months is that people were continuing to wear whoop who had bought it, we didn't have the same drop off rates that had plagued Fitbit or Jawbone some of these other companies, essentially, where you put it on, and you never take it off, right. And the problem was that we weren't selling a lot of them. And around that time as well, I was noticing that, you know, Fitbit, in the public markets was trading at about one times revenue, which as you know, is not great, especially for a technology company, and peloton which wasn't public yet, but in the private markets, they were trading at about 20 times revenue. And peloton of course, had a subscription Fitbit. And so I asked myself that you know, do you want to grow up to look more like peloton or you want to grow up to look more like Fitbit. And that was a fairly easy decision given those multiples. But I also thought, Well, maybe if we were a subscription, we could get more people in the door because we could have a lower upfront cost. But if people fell in love with the product over time, it could be better for both parties. And so in May of 2018, we transitioned the whole business to being a subscription, in fact, where the hardware was just included and free as part of the subscription. And now today, you can sign up for whoop for as little as $30. And we'll send you the brand new Ford auto in the mail. And you know, you can cancel over time. So it's a fairly unique business model, there isn't really a perfect analog to it, because the the hardware is free. And I would say as a company, it's made us a better company. Because we've had to be even more obsessed with customer experience and member satisfaction.

David Novak 26:57

I wanted to ask you about that. Because you know, you obviously got this new business you're trying to gain trial. But when you think about what drives your thinking the most is it retention of your current customers or attraction?

Will Ahmed 27:10

Well, it's funny, we defined the whole business through growth and retention, which we've we've nicknamed grow tain for grow and retain. So you'll see people walking around with growth chain shirts on from time to time, you know, those are the two levers on our business. And I would say that, I probably personally spend more time thinking about retention, I would say the rest of the management team probably spends a lot of time thinking about growth. But you can't have one without the other. And for us ensuring that people are really enjoying the product for months and years, and hopefully for the rest of their lives is core to our value proposition. I mean, we don't think of improving health as a one time thing. It's something that's going to evolve at different stages in your life. I mean, just picture a woman who goes from being someone who's training for a marathon to all of a sudden, someone who's pregnant all of a sudden, who's got a newborn, I mean, those are three very different stages of life for the same person. And and each one of those stages has a very different goal attached to it. And so as a product and a technology and a service, we want to make sure that we're evolving with those different needs.

David Novak 28:21

You know, it's interesting, I was thinking about your job, and you've got to be an expert, or at least damn good at technology damn good at medicine damn good at research, how do you manage the intersection of those three things? Does? Does one take more time than the other? And how do you lead in each of those areas?

Will Ahmed 28:38

Well, first and foremost, it's about being around great people. You know, I I've built this business in large part by getting to work with really brilliant people and people, by the way, who are much more brilliant at their category of work than I am. I mean, you're absolutely right, in order to be successful. At wearable technology. You have to be great, not good at hardware, software analytics, design, you probably need some notion of community, you have to be able to lean on research and science. And there's a reason that many of the best companies in the world have failed in this space. I mean, Nike exited the space Adidas exited the space Under Armour spent a billion dollars and then exited the space. Intel pulled out of the space Microsoft launched something pulled it back, Google launched something pulled it back, jawbone and a 10 other startups that have raised in total over a billion dollars have failed. It's uh, you know, it's been a really, really hard market. And so the only way you can be successful is being excellent at like six or seven different things and in order to be excellent at six or seven things as you know, David, you need to have really, really good people. There's not one generalist who's all those things and I'm certainly an I'm not one generalist, I've gotten to a place where I can identify, I think, great talent, and I can empower that talent to take on the world. You know,

David Novak 30:09

I want to talk to you about talent in a minute, but I have to pay a compliment. Your marketing is fantastic. I don't know if you view yourself as a marketer, but your brand marketing is incredible. First question I have to ask is, How in the world do you get a LeBron James or Michael Phelps to be wearing the whoop, watch to begin with?

Will Ahmed 30:26

Well, this the key to getting to a world class athlete back then was going to their personal trainer, that's still a pretty good person to go to today. But in 2014, you know, it wasn't quite as sexy of a role. And those personal trainers spent more time with these athletes than, you know, almost anyone else. So that was the way we got to LeBron was through Mike Minh CEUs, his personal trainer for over, I think, 15 years now. And Keenan Robinson, who at the time was was Michael Phelps, his trainer, and then you know, the the product has to live up to the pressures of, of those athletes. And fortunately, it did. I think, in terms of brand and marketing, the thing that I'll add is that we never paid these athletes to wear whoop, it was critical to our success, that they had to buy the product and use it. And I bring that up, because I thought with wearable technology was so disruptive to your life, you're how many things in your life do you wear 24/7? Not a lot, right? So it's such a disruptive thing that if it didn't live up to expectations, there was no amount of money or equity, we could give someone to wear it, who didn't like it. But if it actually could tell them how well they were sleeping and recovering, and it was gonna give them even just 1% Chance better winning, they would pay for it. And so we bet on the technology. And it forced us also to actually figure out if the technology was good. And so it was a you know, it was a painful battle but but one that we look back on fondly.

David Novak 32:06

I love your marketing that you have now on national television, you know where you'll watch a Rory McIlroy, or Justin Thomas before he swings the golf club and you'll see what his heart rate is food fly. Yeah, whoop live. I mean, fantastic. Now, are you getting these guys to wear the product for free or now that you're bigger, you actually cut them in on the action?

Will Ahmed 32:27

Well, woop live is an interesting marketing initiative because it touches so many different constituencies. So woop live is our ability to bring live heartrate and other whoop data to broadcast. So David, you're talking about during the Ryder Cup or during the PGA Tour, we were showing live heart rate of players hitting shots, loved it. And we're gonna do this across a lot of different sports. We've started doing it in CrossFit. We've been doing it in NASCAR and SRX. There's there's a lot more to come on that front. You know, you have to have approval from the leagues, you have to have buy in from the broadcaster's you have to buy in from the various athletes. So that is a marketing initiative certainly requires various forms of sponsorship. But I think the cool thing is that it brings a better experience to the fans too. It's not just sticking a banner in front of you and telling you to buy whoop, it's like, Hey, this is pretty cool. This is the actual heart rate of this person under a lot of stress.

David Novak 33:26

I love it. It is super cool to watch, especially when you're wearing the product. And you've got a good sense of it. And yeah, so I absolutely love it. And I think your marketing has a tremendous Luck of the leader to you know, I think that's always so important that you look like you've established the category you are it. And you look that way, how involved you get in that

Will Ahmed 33:46

very involved, I can tell you it was an orientation again, going back to 2011 2012, when I was starting the companies that I believed that the company that would ultimately own health monitoring, would grow up to look a lot more like Nike than IBM. You know, I thought that health monitoring needed to be cool to be a mass market adopted thing. And, you know, health monitors historically have kind of had a stigma associated with them, where if you see someone wearing a health monitor, it's almost like there's something wrong with them. And I wanted to develop a health monitor that was aspirational. You know, the same way, putting on a pair of Air Jordans is aspirational, and says something positive about you. That's how we wanted people to feel when they were whoop. So although whoop the product today is really something that's helping anyone understand their bodies will always have this anchoring in sports and athletics and performance because it creates that aspirational feeling. Just love

David Novak 34:47

what you're doing. And you mentioned the importance of talent, which I couldn't agree more. I mean, you know, building people capabilities job number one of any CEO. So you go from having 10 people let's say now you're you have over 1000 I don't know how Many people do you have now? Well,

Will Ahmed 35:01

we're right around 650.

David Novak 35:03

So you're growing exponentially every year in terms of people that yeah, you know, I talked to Neil butchery of Workday. And the first 500 people that he hired, he and his co founder hired, they interviewed themselves, how involved you get in the interview process now? And what do you look for in your people?

Will Ahmed 35:22

Well, I interviewed probably everyone up until 100 150 people and I became more concerned, I think, with establishing the right culture than being the person who's saying, go or no go on every person who walks in the door. I mean, in a way, it's a nice idea that the CEO interviews everyone, but it's also wildly inefficient. And it also sort of implies to the rest of your team that you don't trust them to find great people. So how do you create a culture, which is finding great people. And the thing that I think really helped crystallize This is that whoop, looks for people who are at this intersection of high intensity and high humility. And we've we've written about this internally, we're very key about this. And high intensity is effectively looking for people who are hard driving, who have a deep expertise in a particular area. And high humility is effectively looking for people who, despite that sort of hard drive, recognize they don't have all the answers in the process. And interestingly, those two things also ourselves, you know, are a little harder to find, because they tend to be inversely correlated. People who are high intensity tend to be a little more arrogant, sometimes people are high humility can be a little more meek. And so just looking for people who are hard driving and humble is helpful lens. And in practice, what that does is, it creates a culture where people are comfortable, really debating and challenging each other. You know, we talked before about having to be great at six or seven different things in a pretty small company. Sometimes companies can be successful, because they're great at one or two things. When you've got that many different things that need to be awesome, you often have these meetings that are very cross functional. You know, how do you send data from a whoop strap to an iPhone? Okay, well, that's gonna require an iOS engineer, a marketer, a designer, a hardware engineer, all in the same room, figuring that one question out, and what's gonna happen is, they're gonna all come in with their own point of view, and there's gonna be a collision, collision. And what you want is not for people to be concerned with getting it their way, but for coming up with the best idea for the company. And when you have people who are high intensity, high humility, I find that you're more likely to get to that and, and in turn, it also helps create this feeling of an idea meritocracy, where the best idea really can come from anywhere in the organization.

David Novak 37:52

You know, that's a great phrase idea. meritocracy. I've heard of meritocracy. But that's that's a great way to think about getting everybody to contribute and collaborate. Because today, I mean, the one thing humans can do that a computer can't do is you can collaborate and you know, getting your organization fired up to do that it has to drive, drive a lot of success. You know, I'm sure all your people were whoop, you know, I guarantee when I worked at Pepsi, everybody drank Pepsi, and I'm sure everybody where everyone was promising. Yeah. How's it affect how you run your company? How do you take advantage of that factor? Do you?

Will Ahmed 38:24

Well, we certainly do a lot of company initiatives around our own products and our data. For example, we have a sleep leaderboard. And we have actually a competition in the company where if you get over 85% of your sleep need for the month, you get a bonus as part of your your, you know, pay stub, so we actually pay people to sleep at whoop, which I think's kind of a cool company initiative. Yeah,

David Novak 38:53

I'd be winning that basis, my numbers, I'd be up, I'd be off the GA, you'd

Will Ahmed 38:57

be doing just fine. I think you'd get the sleep bonus. We've got, we've got a red recovery policy, which we kicked off kind of at the early start of COVID. Because we also had people coming into the office, which is to say that if you had a red recovery, we recommend that you stay home. You know, the thinking being if you ever read recovery, you're either rundown because you're you're getting sick, or you're you may be more susceptible to getting sick, so it's in your interest in others to stay home. And then of course, we've got lots of different fitness classes and data collections that we do as a team. So overall, I would say that, that health and wellness is pretty core to our culture.

David Novak 39:33

You've evolved as this entrepreneur, and now you're talking about how you want to be the best possible CEO. You can be. How much have you really enjoyed growing into that CEO role? We are what 31 Now or 31? Yeah, that's fantastic. You got a lot of responsibility and you know, it is a 24/7 responsibility. People are watching every step of the way. How much do you like that spotlight itself?

Will Ahmed 39:59

I've come to really Enjoy it. I also remember what it was like to feel like out of sorts in the job. So this feeling of growing into it also is rewarding. And, you know, I feel more comfortable now running a 650 person company that's raised over $400 million than I did, running 15 person company that raised 10 million, you know, and, and what I think that really says is just that being a CEO, like anything else is something that you have to work at, and, and learn from and be very introspective about, you know, I've really tried to think about strengths and weaknesses and listen to other members of my management team and board members and, you know, try to create a sort of a learning culture for myself around how to get better,

David Novak 40:45

you're 31. So you're obviously working with a lot of older board members, older people, even in your own company, has that ever created any kind of anxiety for you just having to give direction to older people? And if so, what advice could you give to other people who are rapid climbers, taken on more and more responsibility and have older people working for him?

Will Ahmed 41:08

You know, I view at the end of the day, it's it's kind of a performance culture, right? And, and it doesn't matter really what your age is, or what your skin color is, or your gender or your background? Or, you know, are you delivering on the expectations that you've set out for yourself and your teammates. And I think if you look at it through that lens, it's a blank canvas, and anyone can be graded at any role,

David Novak 41:35

you know, you've had so much success. And I know you've had some struggles along the way. And as you look back, will, you know, what would be one day at work that you'd like to live over?

Will Ahmed 41:47

One day, tomorrow, you know, I have to say, I wake up fired up to go to work every day, I feel like I've kind of created my dream job, I get to work with, you know, the smartest people, we are serving everyone from the best athletes in the world to everyday consumers who are improving their health. It's, it's an invigorating, invigorating job.

David Novak 42:07

This is pretty heady stuff, you know, that you have to really deal with, you're a founder of a really fast growing company that's really talked about in so many different circles, Bezos, Musk, all these different founders, you know, how do you stay grounded, and not not even get comparative to other people? Because you're obviously a very competitive guy. No question about that.

Will Ahmed 42:29

Yeah, I think that it's not particularly productive to compare yourself to other entrepreneurs, or CEOs, I especially did that again, going back to that younger version of myself that was trying to find his footing, you know, I'd say to myself, Oh, I bet fill in the blank, famous CEO never had to deal with this. But I don't think it's that productive. Because I think in part, when they started, they were wrestling through the same challenges you are. And I think part of what's made those entrepreneurs so successful as they just kept getting better. And so that's just the lens that I try to apply back to myself as How can I keep getting a little better every day. And then sure, we'll wake up and see one day where that leaves me, but you have to be very present, as well. You want to be in the meeting that you're at, we're in this conversation that we're in. And I find when you start doing those sort of comparison points and whatnot, it sort of removes you from being present, and takes you to this unproductive mindspace,

David Novak 43:28

I've listened to your own podcast will enjoy it very much. Thank you. Last one I listened to was one with Justin Thomas, which was a lot of fun. Why did you start your own podcast? And what have you learned from doing it with such top athletes?

Will Ahmed 43:42

Well, you know, to to your point earlier, one of the things that makes woop unique is that we have these really fascinating people who wear our product and get performance gains out of it. We also, you know, like being able to tie whoop to performance and that aspirational plays, I realized, you know, I was having these conversations with these fascinating people, just one on one and listening to things that we're doing with our technology. And I was saying, Wow, it'd be so interesting if, if other people heard these conversations. And so that was really the starting point for it. And I said, Let's do 10 of these and see how it goes. And so now of course we're on like 140, and a lot of them I've hosted, I would say one thing I've really loved about doing them is and I wonder how this is for you. But I've found it's made me just a better listener. You know, you have to really listen to your guests when you're doing a podcast in order to make it interesting, right? And depth over breadth I think is what makes something memorable so that that's probably the thing I've personally taken the most away from it. I would also say that just listening to these world class performers talk about performance, I can't help but rub off on you. You're just sort of like left thinking about ways that you can perform better. So those are things that I've done I would say I've taken from it and you know, then I'm very grateful that I get to spend time with these people. I mean, I'm sure for you, it's awesome to just get to do these conversations.

David Novak 45:09

Absolutely. You know, I've always been a big time learner. And so I love listening to people. And you know, it's always been a fantastic way for me to increase my IQ points by having best practice chats like I'm having with you here, I'd always pick up a couple of things and want to go back and really make it happen. And the other thing that I feel is gives me a lot of joy, to bring our listeners people like yourself, because people don't have the access to people that I have access to. And so this is one of the things I'm doing in this chapter of my life is really trying to give people access to leaders that they otherwise would never have basically level the playing field, you know, so that you can talk to a will on that. Or you can talk to a Jamie Dimon or you can talk to Tom Brady. And you know, it's been fascinating for me, you know, this has been so much fun. I always do a lightning round well, and I'd love to do one with you. Okay. What three words best describe you?

Will Ahmed 46:02

Well, I tried to be calm. I think most people would say I'm ambitious, persistent. Try to be humble. Those are at least the first few words that came to mind.

David Novak 46:14

I figured you'd be humbled and intense for sure. If you could be one person for a day, who would it be beside yourself? And why?

Will Ahmed 46:26

Would a fun question I would want to be I would want to be the President of the United States, I think it'd be fascinating to see what that's like, in a 24 hour cycle?

David Novak 46:40

Well, you got plenty of time to get some experience so that we can all vote for you.

Will Ahmed 46:44

I appreciate that. What

David Novak 46:45

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Will Ahmed 46:47

biggest pet peeve I think is is lack of follow up or, you know, circumstances where you're you're engaging with with someone who you perceive is not hard working. You know, it's one thing to go after a problem and do it wrong half a dozen different ways, because it's a hard problem. But if you feel like you're working with people aren't sort of driving at it, and driving towards the solution. That, to me is really frustrating. And frankly, I don't really encounter it because I get to be surrounded by hard driving people that

David Novak 47:22

tell us something about you that few people would know.

Will Ahmed 47:25

Something about me that few people would know. Well, let's see, whoop is my first full time job. Some people are always like, it's the first company so it's actually my first full time job. One other fun one is I play hours of speed chess on my phone. So I'll play these little three minute games on my phone. I just I

David Novak 47:47

gotta hook you up with my buddy. Larry Fitzgerald. You guys could really go after it. He loves that stuff. Larry is

Will Ahmed 47:52

a chess guy. Oh, he loves I've already told him I'm gonna beat him in golf. And I gotta try to beat him in chess.

David Novak 47:59

So what what's your biggest fear?

Will Ahmed 48:03

I don't know if it's a fear, but it's something that drives me which is like living up to potential. You know, I think I'm really excited by the stage that I'm at in life and the people I get to work with and and so I'm kind of at this phase of of saying to myself, you know, don't make unforced errors keep keep driving, you know, and and see where that takes you.

David Novak 48:26

Will you have any hidden talents? hidden talents?

Will Ahmed 48:29

Well, you know, I feel decent about my golf game actually, given the given the time commitment of starting a company, low single digit handicapper, which is pretty good.

David Novak 48:42

Absolutely. You mentioned earlier, whoop, being a wearable monitor, they can help you stay one step ahead. When you think about that, what's your favorite oops story? You know, I gave you my little testimonial. But when you think back, you know, what's your favorite whoop story you like to tell about the impact of your product?

Will Ahmed 49:03

You know, I'm grateful. I've gotten to hear so many amazing stories like this one more recently. You know, as a man who was looking at his whoop data, his heart rate was way out of whack. He was in the red. And he was having chest pain, and whoop, you know, sort of alerted him that something was up. And he wanted to go to the doctor and it turned out he was having a heart attack. And you know, his words on my whoop saved his life. That was pretty powerful. hearing that story. We've now had, you know, probably dozens of stories like on the same the life spectrum, which is pretty remarkable. We've helped a lot of folks in military tactical space, work through PTSD and like not being able to sleep and real emotional trauma. Those have been incredibly powerful stories. Obviously helping have, you know brave men and women who have served our country to so that's pretty awesome. During COVID, we would put out research on elevated respiratory rate being a predictor of COVID-19, one golfer Nick Watney was able to use that to predict that he had COVID-19. And he effectively didn't play in a golf tournament as a consequence. And next thing we know, every player on the PGA Tour was wearing whoop because of that. And then we did all these partnerships with sports teams around it. And And now, we've probably had 10s of 1000s of people on whoop, report that they got an early indicator that they had COVID from their whoop data. And and you know, as a result, I've gotten the message like, Oh, I didn't go to my Thanksgiving dinner, because we've told me, something might be up. And sure enough, I tested positive for COVID. So those are pretty powerful stories.

David Novak 50:52

That's great. And we'll as I understand it, you're recently married? How have you integrated that into your jam packed life?

Will Ahmed 51:01

Well, my wife, Leila is also an entrepreneur. So that helps. So she's building a fashion line. And she's, I think, as a consequence, fairly patient with the fact that some, you know, some moments I might be thinking about business or not as president as I should be. I think also just having someone in your life who's a rock and very stable and loving, you know, is critical to being able to be successful in business or anything else. So, you know, I think I've got a very healthy marriage, very happy marriage, and we don't have any kids yet. I'm sure that'll that'll shake things up for us. When we do.

David Novak 51:39

Yeah, well, you know, I've been married to my wife, 47 years, Wendy. Wow. Great to have a rock. Yeah, I want to wrap this up with the last question here. Because I know you're a busy guy. What three bits of advice would you give to aspiring entrepreneurs leaders?

Will Ahmed 51:55

Well, I think the I think the first is to really focus on solving a problem. I know, we talked about that earlier, I sometimes meet young entrepreneurs who are just very enthusiastic to start a company, but maybe less so focused on on why they want to start that company, you know, it's more about the financial upside, I think, than the actual problem. So I think being hyper focused on solving a problem, I think, surrounding yourself with people who are complementary to you, you know, offering different skills, different perspectives than than your own, and therefore complementing what you're trying to build. And then you know, the last thing is just keep going, there's going to be good days, there's going to be really bad days, and you got to just keep going. And if your business doesn't run out of money, and you don't quit, at some point, you're going to be successful.

David Novak 52:46

Well, well, there's no doubt that you're definitely on your your way. You're not only keep going, but it's obviously you're gonna keep growing, because you've got that mindset that you're gonna make yourself, be the best leader you can possibly be. And it's been a real thrill and honor to have this conversation with you. And thank you for your time.

Will Ahmed 53:05

Well, thanks, David, very appreciative for having me on. And I really enjoyed it.

David Novak 53:18

Well, that was just an absolute great conversation with will, you know, his measurement of the vital few makes so much sense. When I was running yum brands, we were focused on operations at the store level, what were the key measures? Well, we had this acronym was kind of fun, but it's easy to remember. It's called chance, cleanliness, hospitality, accuracy, maintenance, product quality, and speed. And we measured those relentlessly in our restaurants. And everybody knew it was important because it led to great customer satisfaction. That's the restaurant business. And we just heard, we'll talk about whoop, they made the decision for their business to focus on a few key things strain recovery and sleep. If they would try to give data for much more than that'd be overwhelming. And their customers wouldn't know how to act on the information. But by keeping it simple, they're retaining their customers and adding new ones like crazy. So what's it for you as you kick off the new year? What are the vital things you're going to track? Perhaps it's a few key pieces of data, you need to make important decisions. Perhaps it's some personal objectives you have that you're really going to get committed to this year and make it happen. Well, let me tell you something. If you measure it, you'll make it happen because you'll know exactly where you stand. And if you're motivated, you'll do the things that you've got to do to make it happen. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that the great leaders have learned to measure the vital few. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the best leaders in the world, I make it a point to give you some think simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. See you next week.

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