[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_136":-5,"_137":-5,"_138":139,"_140":141,"_142":143},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/2191/start-breaking-rules","id",2191,"title","Start breaking rules","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.980\nBut for me, I think creativity and risk taking and conviction are so\n\n2\n00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:07.740\nintertwined.\n\n3\n00:00:07.740 --> 00:00:14.510\nIt's really believing in an idea enough to let it breathe, let it find oxygen,\n\n4\n00:00:14.510 --> 00:00:15.040\nlet it\n\n5\n00:00:15.040 --> 00:00:18.880\nfind dollars, let it find a platform to get into the world.\n\n6\n00:00:18.880 --> 00:00:23.660\nAnd a lot of time that takes pushing against the norms, breaking rules, doing\n\n7\n00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:24.280\nthings that\n\n8\n00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.560\nmake you uncomfortable.\n\n9\n00:00:26.560 --> 00:00:30.830\nWe've been wrestling with a lot of that here at iHeart2 and we do phenomenally\n\n10\n00:00:30.830 --> 00:00:31.360\nwell with\n\n11\n00:00:31.360 --> 00:00:35.490\nconsumers and like I said, we reach 9 out of 10 consumers, we have phenomenal\n\n12\n00:00:35.490 --> 00:00:36.040\nplatforms\n\n13\n00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:40.850\nand in podcasting and events and of course all our radio brands and\n\n14\n00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:42.040\npersonalities.\n\n15\n00:00:42.040 --> 00:00:44.680\nBut we struggle a little bit with marketers.\n\n16\n00:00:44.680 --> 00:00:48.780\nMarketers don't quite understand the power of audio and then the power of i\n\n17\n00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:49.400\nHeart as the\n\n18\n00:00:49.400 --> 00:00:50.920\nleader in audio.\n\n19\n00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:55.730\nAnd so I've been wrestling a lot with trying to take my own advice about how do\n\n20\n00:00:55.730 --> 00:00:56.520\nI actually\n\n21\n00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.750\nbreak some of the rules and be to be marketing and how do I get some of the\n\n22\n00:01:00.750 --> 00:01:01.600\nmost cynical\n\n23\n00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:06.100\npeople on the planet who play this marketing game every day to pay attention\n\n24\n00:01:06.100 --> 00:01:07.040\nand be willing\n\n25\n00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:08.760\nto take a risk.\n\n26\n00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:12.840\nBecause doing what you've always done is an easy way to not get fired.\n\n27\n00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:17.670\nDoing the new big innovative things that could get you fired is usually how you\n\n28\n00:01:17.670 --> 00:01:18.320\ndo the best\n\n29\n00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:19.960\nwork of your career.\n\n30\n00:01:19.960 --> 00:01:23.320\nSo I think a lot of it is just really being willing to take a risk.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",681159,"end_time",763099,"keywords","innovation, risk, rule-breaking, creativity, risk-taking, conviction","slug","start-breaking-rules","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","28rT72VEdOZ5XtK01V01lJYU7NxklPC72gqpt32UXVgak","mux_asset_id","bfQGGqwzFAKXUW95Gu6D4jOuBzOFL601hB5kBEQmTPvQ","leader_id",33,"episode_id",180,"updated_at","2025-03-07T16:01:48.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/2191/start-breaking-rules","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_25":106,"_107":108,"_61":109,"_58":109,"_110":111,"_68":112,"_39":113,"_114":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_115":116,"_88":117,"_44":118,"_119":120,"_121":122,"_46":-5,"_123":124,"_125":126,"_92":127,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":-5,"_54":55,"_18":56,"_20":57,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":-5,"_35":36,"_39":74,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":-5,"_84":-5,"_85":86,"_87":-5,"_88":-5,"_46":-5,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_92":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Fight for big ideas","fight-for-big-ideas","summary","

You know, for us leaders, there’s just nothing quite as exciting as a good idea.

But for a lot of leaders, what comes next is a real struggle. They’ve got a good idea, but they don’t know how to build traction for it and give it the buy-in it deserves.

That’s why I’m excited for you to hear from Gayle Troberman today. She’s the President and Chief Marketing Officer of iHeartMedia. They’ve got eight hundred and fifty broadcast stations putting music, news, and podcasts in the ears of 90% of Americans. For Gayle, that means a whole lotta opportunities to find great ideas.

And boy, she’s doing just that. She is a vibrant, creative leader – but she doesn’t just have good ideas. She knows how to elicit those ideas from her team. And she knows how to make sure they actually get traction and become reality.

If you want to see how to fight for big ideas, then keep listening, because here is my conversation with my good friend – and soon to be yours – Gayle Troberman.

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.700\nWelcome to Hal leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:07.700 --> 00:00:08.380\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.380 --> 00:00:10.320\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:13.680\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:13.680 --> 00:00:14.260\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.260 --> 00:00:18.240\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:20.600\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:26.140\nYou know, for us leaders, there's just nothing quite as exciting as a good idea\n\n9\n00:00:26.140 --> 00:00:26.200\n.\n\n10\n00:00:26.200 --> 00:00:31.200\nYou see all that potential, you just get so excited about the creativity.\n\n11\n00:00:31.200 --> 00:00:34.800\nAnd I mean, as a leader, it just gives you a rush.\n\n12\n00:00:34.800 --> 00:00:39.320\nBut for a lot of leaders, what comes next is a real struggle.\n\n13\n00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:42.960\nThey've got this really good idea, but they don't know how to build traction\n\n14\n00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:43.560\nfor it and\n\n15\n00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.840\ngive it the buy-in that it deserves.\n\n16\n00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.680\nThat's why I'm excited for you to hear from Gail Trowerman today.\n\n17\n00:00:50.680 --> 00:00:54.480\nShe's the president and chief marketing officer of iHeart Media.\n\n18\n00:00:54.480 --> 00:01:01.480\nThey've got 850 broadcast stations putting music, news and podcast in the ears\n\n19\n00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:02.400\nof 90%\n\n20\n00:01:02.400 --> 00:01:05.800\nof Americans, 90%.\n\n21\n00:01:05.800 --> 00:01:12.160\nSo for Gail, that means a great idea can have a whole lot of impact.\n\n22\n00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:15.200\nAnd boy, she attacking big ideas.\n\n23\n00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.680\nShe's a vibrant creative leader, but she doesn't just have good ideas.\n\n24\n00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.000\nShe knows how to elicit those ideas from her team.\n\n25\n00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:27.720\nAnd she knows how to make sure they actually get traction and become reality.\n\n26\n00:01:27.720 --> 00:01:31.360\nIf you want to learn how to fight for big ideas, then keep listening.\n\n27\n00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:40.700\nBecause here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Gail T\n\n28\n00:01:40.700 --> 00:01:42.360\nrowerman.\n\n29\n00:01:42.360 --> 00:01:47.000\nTell us a little bit about iHeart Media and the scope of your business.\n\n30\n00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:57.130\nSure, iHeart at its core is right now 850 broadcast radio stations, live on air\n\n31\n00:01:57.130 --> 00:01:58.520\n, unscripted,\n\n32\n00:01:58.520 --> 00:02:04.790\nreal humans, open mics, having a conversation with 9 out of 10 Americans every\n\n33\n00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:05.560\nmonth.\n\n34\n00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:09.180\nThat's the core of our business and it fuels all the other pieces of our\n\n35\n00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:10.000\nbusiness that\n\n36\n00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.000\nwe've built.\n\n37\n00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:12.720\nWe're the number one podcast network.\n\n38\n00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:17.400\nMost titles, the most downloads, the most listens, the most creators built on\n\n39\n00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:18.960\nour broadcast radio\n\n40\n00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:20.600\nreach and scale.\n\n41\n00:02:20.600 --> 00:02:26.950\nWe connect artists and fans and brands at massive scale every day to have\n\n42\n00:02:26.950 --> 00:02:28.080\nreally human\n\n43\n00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:30.080\nconnected conversations.\n\n44\n00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:36.110\nThat's fantastic and you're huge, yet you've described iHeart as the nation's\n\n45\n00:02:36.110 --> 00:02:36.760\nbiggest\n\n46\n00:02:36.760 --> 00:02:37.760\nstartup.\n\n47\n00:02:37.760 --> 00:02:39.240\nWhat makes you feel that way?\n\n48\n00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.000\nI work for a phenomenal entrepreneur.\n\n49\n00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:47.700\nBob Pittman is our CEO very much believes in and he founded MTV back when he\n\n50\n00:02:47.700 --> 00:02:48.800\nwas 24 and\n\n51\n00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:53.020\nhe's been CEO of a ton of amazing organizations and he's very much an\n\n52\n00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:55.480\nentrepreneurial leader.\n\n53\n00:02:55.480 --> 00:02:59.240\nI grew up at Microsoft which was also for its size and scale.\n\n54\n00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.320\nIn the back in the day, particularly when I was there, it was very much an\n\n55\n00:03:02.320 --> 00:03:03.080\nentrepreneurial\n\n56\n00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:04.080\nculture.\n\n57\n00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:08.360\nThat means it's okay to test and learn.\n\n58\n00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:14.260\nWe have a corporate value that urgency wins, chaos is okay, things that a lot\n\n59\n00:03:14.260 --> 00:03:15.360\nof companies\n\n60\n00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.540\nrebel against and it's really important particularly because of the nature of\n\n61\n00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:20.440\nour business.\n\n62\n00:03:20.440 --> 00:03:24.760\nThe fact that I honestly don't know what my product is right now.\n\n63\n00:03:24.760 --> 00:03:29.560\nIt is in the hands of all of these creators who have massive audiences and they\n\n64\n00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:30.480\n're deciding\n\n65\n00:03:30.480 --> 00:03:34.070\nwhat they're going to talk about, what every episode of stuff you should know\n\n66\n00:03:34.070 --> 00:03:35.520\nshould cover.\n\n67\n00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:40.320\nWhat do people care about today on their way home from work in Cincinnati or\n\n68\n00:03:40.320 --> 00:03:41.080\nDetroit or\n\n69\n00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:43.640\nMiami or New York?\n\n70\n00:03:43.640 --> 00:03:49.210\nThe fact that we work in this very rapidly changing organic medium, it really\n\n71\n00:03:49.210 --> 00:03:49.960\nhelps keep\n\n72\n00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:55.530\nour culture agile I guess is the probably overused word but I've never worked\n\n73\n00:03:55.530 --> 00:03:56.920\nin a culture where\n\n74\n00:03:56.920 --> 00:03:59.160\nyou can have an idea today.\n\n75\n00:03:59.160 --> 00:04:02.170\nIn this conversation, you could pitch me something, we could go, \"That's\n\n76\n00:04:02.170 --> 00:04:03.080\namazing, we should do\n\n77\n00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:04.080\nit.\"\n\n78\n00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.640\nWe could literally be live on air on 850 stations with it tomorrow.\n\n79\n00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:13.490\nI didn't realize in all the marketing I'd done at Microsoft and other companies\n\n80\n00:04:13.490 --> 00:04:13.880\njust\n\n81\n00:04:13.880 --> 00:04:17.840\nhow crazy fast an agile audio could be.\n\n82\n00:04:17.840 --> 00:04:22.010\nEven more than digital, it's about a tenth the cost and a tenth the time on the\n\n83\n00:04:22.010 --> 00:04:22.720\nproduction\n\n84\n00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:23.720\nside.\n\n85\n00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:26.840\nSpeed of sound is a very real mantra here at iHeart.\n\n86\n00:04:26.840 --> 00:04:31.740\nWell, I really want to dive deep into how you lead at iHeart but before I do\n\n87\n00:04:31.740 --> 00:04:32.400\nthat, you\n\n88\n00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:37.450\ndid spend 16 years of your career climbing the ranks at what you would call\n\n89\n00:04:37.450 --> 00:04:38.360\nanother little\n\n90\n00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:40.720\nstartup, Microsoft.\n\n91\n00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:43.720\nTell me one of your favorite stories from the early days.\n\n92\n00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:44.720\nIt was fascinating.\n\n93\n00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:50.620\nI had worked in New York in big agencies in the late 80s, early 90s and New\n\n94\n00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:51.560\nYork was very\n\n95\n00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:56.690\nmuch business culture, very clear who had the corner offices and the C-suite\n\n96\n00:04:56.690 --> 00:04:57.800\ndecision makers\n\n97\n00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:02.360\nwould come into rooms and decide and make decisions.\n\n98\n00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:06.360\nWhen I got to Microsoft, the first thing that really blew my mind was you go\n\n99\n00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:07.240\ninto a room\n\n100\n00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:12.600\nand I'm this new nobody in this internet, secret internet projects and you didn\n\n101\n00:05:12.600 --> 00:05:13.320\n't know\n\n102\n00:05:13.320 --> 00:05:16.760\nwho was the most important person.\n\n103\n00:05:16.760 --> 00:05:21.370\nOne of the things that always blew my mind there was that there really was,\n\n104\n00:05:21.370 --> 00:05:21.720\nthere was\n\n105\n00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:29.240\njust so much diversity of thought, of age, of backgrounds, of cultures and it\n\n106\n00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:29.960\nreally\n\n107\n00:05:29.960 --> 00:05:34.940\nwas a place where everyone got heard and then eventually somebody who had to\n\n108\n00:05:34.940 --> 00:05:36.160\nmake the decision\n\n109\n00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.480\nwould be like, \"Okay, I heard everything.\n\n110\n00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:40.200\nWe're going to go do this.\"\n\n111\n00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:44.870\nBut sitting at the table and not being able to discern because of how expensive\n\n112\n00:05:44.870 --> 00:05:45.520\nsomeone's\n\n113\n00:05:45.520 --> 00:05:50.080\nwatch was or the power suit they were wearing.\n\n114\n00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:55.090\nThere really weren't these artifices of hierarchy at Microsoft in ways that I\n\n115\n00:05:55.090 --> 00:05:55.960\nthink created\n\n116\n00:05:55.960 --> 00:05:59.600\na much more egalitarian world.\n\n117\n00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.460\nThe fact that there just weren't those clues that I was used to, that was the\n\n118\n00:06:03.460 --> 00:06:04.160\nfirst thing\n\n119\n00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:05.800\nthat blew my mind there.\n\n120\n00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:09.780\nAs I understand it, when you were at Microsoft, you created marketing campaigns\n\n121\n00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:10.520\nfor internet\n\n122\n00:06:10.520 --> 00:06:16.080\nstartups and this was a time when the internet was the wild wild west.\n\n123\n00:06:16.080 --> 00:06:17.080\nI mean, it was just-\n\n124\n00:06:17.080 --> 00:06:19.880\nKind of like the metaverse today, yes.\n\n125\n00:06:19.880 --> 00:06:23.800\nWhat did you learn from that experience scale?\n\n126\n00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:28.760\nIt's so easy to look back at so many of the lessons learned now that seemed so\n\n127\n00:06:28.760 --> 00:06:29.680\nobvious.\n\n128\n00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.830\nBut back in the day, everything was new and we were trying things and\n\n129\n00:06:33.830 --> 00:06:34.960\neverything was a\n\n130\n00:06:34.960 --> 00:06:35.960\nfirst.\n\n131\n00:06:35.960 --> 00:06:40.320\nSo we really were creating what we didn't realize were entirely new disciplines\n\n132\n00:06:40.320 --> 00:06:40.600\nat the\n\n133\n00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:41.600\ntime.\n\n134\n00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:47.380\nWe started emailing people about a product called Sidewalk in Seattle and we'd\n\n135\n00:06:47.380 --> 00:06:48.200\nfind people\n\n136\n00:06:48.200 --> 00:06:52.330\nwho had email lists because probably only 10% of the population were on the\n\n137\n00:06:52.330 --> 00:06:52.920\ninternet\n\n138\n00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:54.080\nat that point.\n\n139\n00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:57.350\nAnd so we'd start emailing people and say, \"Hey, we've got this new city guide\n\n140\n00:06:57.350 --> 00:06:57.680\n.\"\n\n141\n00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.880\nWe're like, \"That became email marketing.\"\n\n142\n00:07:00.880 --> 00:07:04.520\nWe did branded content before that was a thing.\n\n143\n00:07:04.520 --> 00:07:07.960\nWe called it custom publishing with brands.\n\n144\n00:07:07.960 --> 00:07:10.640\nWe created new ad types.\n\n145\n00:07:10.640 --> 00:07:12.640\nMany of them horrible.\n\n146\n00:07:12.640 --> 00:07:14.080\nLeave behind ads.\n\n147\n00:07:14.080 --> 00:07:15.720\nOver the page ads.\n\n148\n00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:20.260\nWe had to learn like people don't love being interrupted between the thing they\n\n149\n00:07:20.260 --> 00:07:20.640\nchose to\n\n150\n00:07:20.640 --> 00:07:24.600\ngo to and the actual content they wanted.\n\n151\n00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:29.070\nAnd we learned all of these amazing lessons about how to build businesses at\n\n152\n00:07:29.070 --> 00:07:29.800\nthe time.\n\n153\n00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.110\nWe didn't really realize all of those things that we were using as little\n\n154\n00:07:34.110 --> 00:07:35.200\nmarketing tools\n\n155\n00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:40.430\nfor Expedia or CarPoint or HomeAdvisor or Sidewalk were actually going to\n\n156\n00:07:40.430 --> 00:07:42.040\nbecome entire marketing\n\n157\n00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.840\ndisciplines and ecosystems.\n\n158\n00:07:44.840 --> 00:07:47.120\nWe did some of the first submit a video.\n\n159\n00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:50.930\nWe did a project with Visa years and years and years ago way ahead of its time\n\n160\n00:07:50.930 --> 00:07:51.680\nwith dial\n\n161\n00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:56.680\nup speed where you had to create a video to pitch a business idea that Visa\n\n162\n00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:58.560\nwould fund.\n\n163\n00:07:58.560 --> 00:07:59.560\nAnd we were blown away.\n\n164\n00:07:59.560 --> 00:08:06.360\nI think we got something like back in the day maybe 10, 20,000 videos submitted\n\n165\n00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:06.640\n.\n\n166\n00:08:06.640 --> 00:08:11.080\nAnd it was so it was Shark Tank meets YouTube back in the day.\n\n167\n00:08:11.080 --> 00:08:14.510\nAnd we were blown away by the level of engagement back then because these are\n\n168\n00:08:14.510 --> 00:08:15.280\nnot easy things\n\n169\n00:08:15.280 --> 00:08:17.000\nto go do or submit.\n\n170\n00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:20.470\nAnd yeah, I should have created a business for each and every one of them and I\n\n171\n00:08:20.470 --> 00:08:20.840\nwould\n\n172\n00:08:20.840 --> 00:08:23.400\nI wouldn't be retired now.\n\n173\n00:08:23.400 --> 00:08:24.720\nI don't think you'd be retired.\n\n174\n00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:26.080\nYou love what you're doing too much.\n\n175\n00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:27.080\nYou're a worker.\n\n176\n00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:28.080\nI could don't.\n\n177\n00:08:28.080 --> 00:08:29.080\nYou enjoy that.\n\n178\n00:08:29.080 --> 00:08:33.120\nYou know, and well speaking of first, you became Microsoft's first chief\n\n179\n00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:34.360\ncreative officer.\n\n180\n00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:38.320\nYou know, tell me the story about how that role came together.\n\n181\n00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:44.240\nI worked for our CMO at the time at Microsoft who was a real original Microsoft\n\n182\n00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:45.200\nemployee,\n\n183\n00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.840\none of the early early early crew building that business.\n\n184\n00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.680\nAnd we were fighting some really aggressive marketing battles.\n\n185\n00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:57.880\nSo Apple had started running a little campaign you may recall the I'm a Mac.\n\n186\n00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:04.280\nI'm a PC ads at massive scale on TV every night.\n\n187\n00:09:04.280 --> 00:09:07.440\nAnd Mitch Matthews, who was the CMO at the time.\n\n188\n00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:10.840\nShe called me up and she was like, you know, the I'm a Mac.\n\n189\n00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:11.840\nI'm a PC ads.\n\n190\n00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.360\nHave you seen that campaign?\n\n191\n00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.080\nAnd I was like, of course.\n\n192\n00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.720\nAnd she's like, well, we really need to respond.\n\n193\n00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:22.470\nTypically, we marketed Windows when a new version came out and we do a big new\n\n194\n00:09:22.470 --> 00:09:23.200\nversion.\n\n195\n00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.880\nWe'd market with all the hardware PC makers and people would go buy new laptops\n\n196\n00:09:27.880 --> 00:09:28.400\nand with\n\n197\n00:09:28.400 --> 00:09:33.080\nthem you would get Windows and Office and we didn't really have to market\n\n198\n00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:33.600\nWindows as\n\n199\n00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.840\na consumer product.\n\n200\n00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:39.440\nSo Apple, as they were getting more aggressive forced us to do that.\n\n201\n00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:42.890\nAnd she called me and she was like, so I'd love to go hire one of those, you\n\n202\n00:09:42.890 --> 00:09:43.680\nknow, genius\n\n203\n00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:46.840\ncreatives out there in the Adland like so and so or so.\n\n204\n00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.360\nAnd so she's like, but I'm not sure they can survive the discipline of\n\n205\n00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:51.200\nMicrosoft.\n\n206\n00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.560\nSo would you come run advertising?\n\n207\n00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:57.680\nAnd I had taken that job and I got into it and we hired those amazing agencies\n\n208\n00:09:57.680 --> 00:09:57.960\nand\n\n209\n00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:02.210\ncreative geniuses and we're really doing some terrific marketing work and\n\n210\n00:10:02.210 --> 00:10:03.040\nholding our ground\n\n211\n00:10:03.040 --> 00:10:05.760\non, you know, Windows share, which was enormous.\n\n212\n00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:10.910\nAnd then it became clear the more I got into running advertising at Microsoft\n\n213\n00:10:10.910 --> 00:10:11.960\nthat 90%\n\n214\n00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.780\nof my job was becoming organizational and operational because we're marketing\n\n215\n00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:17.520\nin 31\n\n216\n00:10:17.520 --> 00:10:21.540\ncountries around the world with local marketing teams and national teams and\n\n217\n00:10:21.540 --> 00:10:22.360\nMitch was wise\n\n218\n00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:26.860\nenough to see that and say, I have a million people at this company who can go\n\n219\n00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:28.320\noperationalize.\n\n220\n00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:29.600\nIt's an engineering culture.\n\n221\n00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:35.620\nShe's like, I really need you to take these great ideas that people bring us\n\n222\n00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:36.520\nand navigate\n\n223\n00:10:36.520 --> 00:10:40.950\nthem around Redmond and make sure they don't break before they get into the\n\n224\n00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:41.520\nworld.\n\n225\n00:10:41.520 --> 00:10:46.210\nAnd that was, I think the first client side chief creative officer role that\n\n226\n00:10:46.210 --> 00:10:47.040\nshe created\n\n227\n00:10:47.040 --> 00:10:52.840\nbecause we were very good at taking genius ideas and letting the masses of\n\n228\n00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:53.920\nopinions kind\n\n229\n00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:59.200\nof iterate them out of relevance as we navigated the company.\n\n230\n00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:03.420\nFirst job, one of the best jobs I ever had by far, so much fun and I learned so\n\n231\n00:11:03.420 --> 00:11:03.800\nmuch\n\n232\n00:11:03.800 --> 00:11:06.560\nfrom a lot of those agency gurus.\n\n233\n00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:10.520\nWell, you're a renowned creative person in your own right and you know, there\n\n234\n00:11:10.520 --> 00:11:10.960\nare a lot\n\n235\n00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.400\nof people struggle with being creative.\n\n236\n00:11:13.400 --> 00:11:17.520\nWhat kind of advice would you give people on how they can become maybe even\n\n237\n00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:18.400\nmore creative\n\n238\n00:11:18.400 --> 00:11:19.800\nthan they think they are?\n\n239\n00:11:19.800 --> 00:11:26.130\nYou know, for me, I think creativity and risk taking and conviction are so\n\n240\n00:11:26.130 --> 00:11:27.640\nintertwined.\n\n241\n00:11:27.640 --> 00:11:34.470\nIt's really believing in an idea enough to let it breathe, let it find oxygen,\n\n242\n00:11:34.470 --> 00:11:34.960\nlet it\n\n243\n00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.800\nfind dollars, let it find a platform to get into the world.\n\n244\n00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:43.580\nAnd a lot of time that takes pushing against the norms, breaking rules, doing\n\n245\n00:11:43.580 --> 00:11:44.160\nthings that\n\n246\n00:11:44.160 --> 00:11:46.440\nmake you uncomfortable.\n\n247\n00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.710\nWe've been wrestling with a lot of that here at iHeart2 and we do phenomenally\n\n248\n00:11:50.710 --> 00:11:51.280\nwell with\n\n249\n00:11:51.280 --> 00:11:54.600\nconsumers and you know, like I said, we reach nine out of ten consumers.\n\n250\n00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:59.720\nWe have phenomenal platforms in podcasting and events and of course all our\n\n251\n00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:00.720\nradio brands\n\n252\n00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.640\nand personalities, but we struggle a little bit with marketers.\n\n253\n00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:08.710\nMarketers don't quite understand the power of audio and then the power of i\n\n254\n00:12:08.710 --> 00:12:09.320\nHeart as the\n\n255\n00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:10.840\nleader in audio.\n\n256\n00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.450\nAnd so, you know, I've been wrestling a lot with trying to take my own advice\n\n257\n00:12:14.450 --> 00:12:15.000\nabout how\n\n258\n00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:19.760\ndo I actually break some of the rules and be to be marketing?\n\n259\n00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:23.440\nAnd how do I get some of the most cynical people on the planet who play this\n\n260\n00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:24.120\nmarketing\n\n261\n00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:28.680\ngame every day to pay attention and be willing to take a risk?\n\n262\n00:12:28.680 --> 00:12:32.760\nBecause doing what you've always done is an easy way to not get fired.\n\n263\n00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:37.590\nDoing the new big innovative things that could get you fired is usually how you\n\n264\n00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:38.240\ndo the best\n\n265\n00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:39.880\nwork of your career.\n\n266\n00:12:39.880 --> 00:12:43.120\nSo I think a lot of it is just really being willing to take a risk.\n\n267\n00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.880\nYeah, I couldn't agree more as there's some great insight there.\n\n268\n00:12:46.880 --> 00:12:51.320\nAnd you mentioned earlier about some of your Microsoft meetings where you'd be\n\n269\n00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:51.880\nin there\n\n270\n00:12:51.880 --> 00:12:55.390\nwith the engineer and you were the marketing person that you guys would fight\n\n271\n00:12:55.390 --> 00:12:55.920\nit out.\n\n272\n00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:59.250\nAnd you've actually said that one of the things you learned at Microsoft was\n\n273\n00:12:59.250 --> 00:13:00.000\nthe importance\n\n274\n00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:04.560\nof having a culture where passionate people really fight for their ideas.\n\n275\n00:13:04.560 --> 00:13:09.240\nHow are you bringing that same mentality to your own team there at iHeart?\n\n276\n00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.160\nCOVID was such an interesting ride.\n\n277\n00:13:11.160 --> 00:13:16.240\nI think I know for us as a leadership team at iHeart, I feel like I was able to\n\n278\n00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.080\nget some\n\n279\n00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:22.560\nbolder, more transformative new ideas and programs out into the world.\n\n280\n00:13:22.560 --> 00:13:26.490\nAnd one of the things I took away from that is so often, you know, we have a\n\n281\n00:13:26.490 --> 00:13:27.320\npretty large\n\n282\n00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.200\nleadership team that's geographically distributed.\n\n283\n00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.250\nAnd because of obviously the urgency of COVID, the massive business pressures\n\n284\n00:13:35.250 --> 00:13:35.880\nwe were all\n\n285\n00:13:35.880 --> 00:13:41.660\nfacing and the fact that we were now on this team's or Zoom like device, I\n\n286\n00:13:41.660 --> 00:13:42.240\nrealized the\n\n287\n00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:47.990\npower of all of us on the same call, looking each other in the eye and just\n\n288\n00:13:47.990 --> 00:13:48.960\nsaying yes\n\n289\n00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:49.960\nor no.\n\n290\n00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:53.280\nAnd I've really, it sounds like such a simple thing.\n\n291\n00:13:53.280 --> 00:13:56.790\nYou know, we have so many meetings in the course of your day or your week about\n\n292\n00:13:56.790 --> 00:13:57.040\none\n\n293\n00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:03.300\nsmall topic, but having consistency with my peers and in programming and events\n\n294\n00:14:03.300 --> 00:14:04.960\nand podcasting\n\n295\n00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.800\nand to just go, you know, what should we do?\n\n296\n00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:08.800\nHere's a moment.\n\n297\n00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:09.800\nWe have a problem.\n\n298\n00:14:09.800 --> 00:14:13.530\nWe need revenue here or we need to reach people there and getting all of us\n\n299\n00:14:13.530 --> 00:14:15.080\ntogether to just\n\n300\n00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:19.320\nusually it only takes an hour to go, what's possible?\n\n301\n00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:20.320\nWhat can we do?\n\n302\n00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:21.600\nAre we all in?\n\n303\n00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.600\nIf we're all in?\n\n304\n00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:23.600\nGreat.\n\n305\n00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:25.640\nNow we can work with our teams to go execute.\n\n306\n00:14:25.640 --> 00:14:27.280\nSo that was one big takeaway.\n\n307\n00:14:27.280 --> 00:14:31.570\nWe used to rely on being in rooms together so much and we're starting to get\n\n308\n00:14:31.570 --> 00:14:32.640\npretty good\n\n309\n00:14:32.640 --> 00:14:35.520\nat communicating with like asynchronous docs.\n\n310\n00:14:35.520 --> 00:14:41.560\nAnd you know, it's so much faster if you have 20 people, you want to pick their\n\n311\n00:14:41.560 --> 00:14:41.560\nbrains\n\n312\n00:14:41.560 --> 00:14:47.110\nto just throw up a question and have everyone break into small groups, type in\n\n313\n00:14:47.110 --> 00:14:47.880\nwhat they\n\n314\n00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:49.640\ncame out of it with.\n\n315\n00:14:49.640 --> 00:14:53.240\nAnd we've been working with some consultants and stuff too to just get better\n\n316\n00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:54.080\nat the speed\n\n317\n00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:59.450\nof, you don't need meetings with 20 people to get ideas and then write them up\n\n318\n00:14:59.450 --> 00:15:00.080\nand then\n\n319\n00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.830\nvet them again and then take them here and take them there and take them\n\n320\n00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:05.280\nthrough 18 steps.\n\n321\n00:15:05.280 --> 00:15:11.210\nIf we can just collapse some of that linear process into a single meeting using\n\n322\n00:15:11.210 --> 00:15:12.320\ntechnology,\n\n323\n00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:15.650\nthat's something, you know, I wouldn't say we've mastered but we're definitely\n\n324\n00:15:15.650 --> 00:15:16.280\non a journey\n\n325\n00:15:16.280 --> 00:15:21.400\nand we're really seeing again for the speed we move, these kind of tools are\n\n326\n00:15:21.400 --> 00:15:22.520\ninvaluable.\n\n327\n00:15:22.520 --> 00:15:26.180\nGet 20 people's ideas, raw, rough, but they're written there in front of you\n\n328\n00:15:26.180 --> 00:15:26.880\nand you can,\n\n329\n00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:30.160\nyou all know, you go, oh my God, that's the one.\n\n330\n00:15:30.160 --> 00:15:33.490\nAnd it's usually somebody who might not have even been in the meeting if we'd\n\n331\n00:15:33.490 --> 00:15:34.080\nscheduled\n\n332\n00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:41.480\nit as more of an in-person situation.\n\n333\n00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.350\nOne thing every great leader knows is that your life and your career is just\n\n334\n00:15:45.350 --> 00:15:46.400\nway too important\n\n335\n00:15:46.400 --> 00:15:48.460\nto delegate to someone else.\n\n336\n00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:52.060\nThe best way to really take control of your career and your life is to become a\n\n337\n00:15:52.060 --> 00:15:53.760\ngreat self-coach.\n\n338\n00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:57.480\nYou got to understand literally how to coach yourself to success.\n\n339\n00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.680\nAnd yes, I'm here to tell you, it can be done.\n\n340\n00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:04.730\nMy new book, Take Charge of You, teaches you a step-by-step plan for how to\n\n341\n00:16:04.730 --> 00:16:05.640\ncoach yourself\n\n342\n00:16:05.640 --> 00:16:06.960\nto success.\n\n343\n00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.560\nIt's practical and it's powerful.\n\n344\n00:16:09.560 --> 00:16:13.700\nWhen you put the self-coaching concepts into action in your life, you'll find\n\n345\n00:16:13.700 --> 00:16:14.720\nthe fulfillment\n\n346\n00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.280\nand joy you've been looking for.\n\n347\n00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:21.560\nYou can buy Take Charge of You on Amazon or wherever you buy books.\n\n348\n00:16:21.560 --> 00:16:23.320\nGrab your copy today.\n\n349\n00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:27.590\nThe book will offer you inspiration but most importantly, it offers you\n\n350\n00:16:27.590 --> 00:16:28.520\nexercises that\n\n351\n00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:33.190\nincrease your self-awareness and helps you create a life and career you\n\n352\n00:16:33.190 --> 00:16:34.560\nactually enjoy.\n\n353\n00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:36.640\nWe put you to work in this book.\n\n354\n00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:40.480\nYou want to do these exercises and use self-discover.\n\n355\n00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:45.270\nSo grab your copy of Take Charge of You and learn exactly what you need to do\n\n356\n00:16:45.270 --> 00:16:46.640\nto get unstuck\n\n357\n00:16:46.640 --> 00:16:55.000\nand become the best you can be.\n\n358\n00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:59.690\nIt's so obvious that you have such a strong action orientation, sense of\n\n359\n00:16:59.690 --> 00:17:00.560\nurgency.\n\n360\n00:17:00.560 --> 00:17:03.560\nObviously, you're a creative person.\n\n361\n00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:08.760\nIt's hard to find people that have those skills that I just described all\n\n362\n00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:09.600\nwrapped up\n\n363\n00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:10.880\ninto one.\n\n364\n00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.760\nHow involved do you get in the hiring process?\n\n365\n00:17:13.760 --> 00:17:17.410\nHow do you make sure you're bringing in people like yourself that aligns with\n\n366\n00:17:17.410 --> 00:17:18.080\nwhat you want\n\n367\n00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:19.720\nto have happen on your team?\n\n368\n00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:21.880\nI would almost argue the opposite, David.\n\n369\n00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.600\nI may not need tons more people like me.\n\n370\n00:17:24.600 --> 00:17:27.840\nI need people who think differently than me.\n\n371\n00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:34.060\nI think we need good pairings of super creative people versus super strategic\n\n372\n00:17:34.060 --> 00:17:35.480\nthinkers versus\n\n373\n00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.400\nanalysts versus people who are more operational.\n\n374\n00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:44.710\nSo when a creative person has a crazy idea, somebody operational can go, \"Oh,\n\n375\n00:17:44.710 --> 00:17:45.120\nlet me break\n\n376\n00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:46.120\nthat down.\"\n\n377\n00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:48.600\nWe could build this, do that, put that there.\n\n378\n00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:53.760\nFor me, it's always about building teams that are more multi-hyphenate.\n\n379\n00:17:53.760 --> 00:18:00.200\nPeople who understand and respect creativity, but not just teams of creatives.\n\n380\n00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:04.560\nOne thing that I've observed, people like yourself, who are creative and you're\n\n381\n00:18:04.560 --> 00:18:04.880\nable\n\n382\n00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:11.600\nto come up with the ideas, you say, \"I don't need people like me.\n\n383\n00:18:11.600 --> 00:18:14.400\nThat sounds really nice, but what happens if you go away?\"\n\n384\n00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:15.760\nNo, I'd certainly need something.\n\n385\n00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:19.160\nWe have a killer creative edge, but yeah.\n\n386\n00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:23.160\nBecause I think people like yourself, you're so good at what you do.\n\n387\n00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.780\nA lot of times you take it for granted, but it's pretty hard to find people who\n\n388\n00:18:26.780 --> 00:18:27.320\nhave that\n\n389\n00:18:27.320 --> 00:18:29.240\nidea generation capability.\n\n390\n00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:30.240\nYeah.\n\n391\n00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:35.100\nI think you have to create environments where people feel comfortable sharing\n\n392\n00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:35.920\nideas where\n\n393\n00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:38.040\nthere's no right or wrong idea.\n\n394\n00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:39.120\nI get dinged a lot.\n\n395\n00:18:39.120 --> 00:18:40.120\nIt's funny.\n\n396\n00:18:40.120 --> 00:18:41.120\nI think fast.\n\n397\n00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:42.120\nI talk fast.\n\n398\n00:18:42.120 --> 00:18:43.920\nIt's just how I operate.\n\n399\n00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:49.960\nI think so often people misinterpret that as, \"I have to have the right idea.\"\n\n400\n00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:54.030\nI'll also be the first one to look at a breakout session and go, \"That, oh my\n\n401\n00:18:54.030 --> 00:18:54.520\nGod.\n\n402\n00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:55.520\nThat's an idea.\"\n\n403\n00:18:55.520 --> 00:18:58.320\nI don't even care who's idea was or where it came from.\n\n404\n00:18:58.320 --> 00:19:02.240\nIt's like, \"That's a better idea,\" or, \"That makes this idea better.\"\n\n405\n00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:06.150\nDo you think that's the world we live in and in a collaborative world,\n\n406\n00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:07.200\nparticularly at\n\n407\n00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.840\niHeart where we're reaching nine out of ten Americans?\n\n408\n00:19:10.840 --> 00:19:16.110\nWe've also got to really think about a diverse team in all of the dimensions,\n\n409\n00:19:16.110 --> 00:19:17.840\ndiverse backgrounds.\n\n410\n00:19:17.840 --> 00:19:21.600\nI think marketing, it's not like we're doing surgery.\n\n411\n00:19:21.600 --> 00:19:25.620\nI think there's so many amazing marketers who didn't grow up in marketing or\n\n412\n00:19:25.620 --> 00:19:27.120\nstudy marketing,\n\n413\n00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:31.400\nbut really just have good instincts about people or about business.\n\n414\n00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:38.110\nI always look for diversity of all types, cultural, gender, geographic, age,\n\n415\n00:19:38.110 --> 00:19:38.600\nevery kind\n\n416\n00:19:38.600 --> 00:19:43.540\nof diversity, I think makes us better, particularly when our product is for\n\n417\n00:19:43.540 --> 00:19:44.440\neveryone.\n\n418\n00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.200\nWe really need to take all of that into account.\n\n419\n00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.220\nDo you have a time when you could look back and you say you and your team had\n\n420\n00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:51.720\nan idea\n\n421\n00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:55.160\nthat you really had to fight for that people didn't get?\n\n422\n00:19:55.160 --> 00:20:00.260\nI think the work I was recently talking about during COVID when I look back at\n\n423\n00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:00.880\nsome of these\n\n424\n00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.840\nnew franchises we built and built with other of my peers within iHeart who,\n\n425\n00:20:06.840 --> 00:20:07.600\nagain, they're\n\n426\n00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:11.800\nnot my ideas, they're great ideas that we got into the world.\n\n427\n00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:17.000\nOne of them that was phenomenal project was in June of year one of COVID, May,\n\n428\n00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:17.480\nJune, right\n\n429\n00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:22.450\naround the George Floyd murder and the world was blowing up on so many levels\n\n430\n00:20:22.450 --> 00:20:23.160\nand there's\n\n431\n00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:27.480\nan exact really amazing leader at iHeart, Tony Coles.\n\n432\n00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.200\nHe'd had this sort of skunk works project he'd been bouncing around with an\n\n433\n00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:31.960\ninsight that\n\n434\n00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.080\nblack consumers don't trust news.\n\n435\n00:20:35.080 --> 00:20:39.860\nThey don't watch news, listen to news and trust news exponentially higher rates\n\n436\n00:20:39.860 --> 00:20:40.240\nthan\n\n437\n00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.800\nthe average American where trust isn't all that high either.\n\n438\n00:20:44.800 --> 00:20:48.780\nAnd he had sort of this project he'd been batting around and all of a sudden\n\n439\n00:20:48.780 --> 00:20:49.120\nlots of\n\n440\n00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:53.740\nbrands were trying to do things that mattered and reach black consumers in ways\n\n441\n00:20:53.740 --> 00:20:54.920\nthat matter.\n\n442\n00:20:54.920 --> 00:21:03.280\nAnd we in a matter of like a month or so created a 24/7 black news network, BIN\n\n443\n00:21:03.280 --> 00:21:03.880\n, the black\n\n444\n00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:09.000\ninformation network at iHeart, we started flipping broadcast radio stations\n\n445\n00:21:09.000 --> 00:21:09.760\nfrom other\n\n446\n00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:12.760\nformats to 24/7 news.\n\n447\n00:21:12.760 --> 00:21:17.360\nWe're now up to about 35 stations around the nation, physical broadcast\n\n448\n00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:18.440\nstations, and we\n\n449\n00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.560\nhave a national digital stream.\n\n450\n00:21:20.560 --> 00:21:25.310\nWe've become one of the biggest employers of black journalists because of that\n\n451\n00:21:25.310 --> 00:21:25.800\nand it's\n\n452\n00:21:25.800 --> 00:21:31.000\nall black journalists telling you the news through a lens for black listeners\n\n453\n00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:31.760\nand anyone\n\n454\n00:21:31.760 --> 00:21:32.760\nelse.\n\n455\n00:21:32.760 --> 00:21:36.400\nIt's really high quality news, but we have to fund it.\n\n456\n00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.500\nAnd if we go ask advertisers to come buy ads in it, then I'm going to be in\n\n457\n00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:42.400\nsending the\n\n458\n00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:46.080\njournalists to do everything that's corrupted journalism.\n\n459\n00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:50.420\nDrive like the most salacious headlines to get the most clicks and the most\n\n460\n00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:51.760\nlistens and\n\n461\n00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:53.040\nit all falls apart.\n\n462\n00:21:53.040 --> 00:21:55.840\nAnd we said, how do we work around that?\n\n463\n00:21:55.840 --> 00:22:01.360\nAnd we ended up deciding to get brands that really wanted a voice to the black\n\n464\n00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:02.200\nconsumer\n\n465\n00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.520\nto co-fund the black information network with us.\n\n466\n00:22:06.520 --> 00:22:12.560\nEight founding partners, multi-year commitments, Bank of America, Lowe's, Sony,\n\n467\n00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:13.960\nGeico, 23and\n\n468\n00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.040\nme, McDonald's.\n\n469\n00:22:16.040 --> 00:22:20.440\nWe worked with those brands and said, we're not going to sell you ads.\n\n470\n00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:22.720\nWe're not going to report impressions.\n\n471\n00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.520\nThis is about your part of this network.\n\n472\n00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:26.920\nYou have access to our data.\n\n473\n00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:28.840\nOur insights are journalists.\n\n474\n00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:33.520\nYou have at least 60 seconds an hour to do whatever you want with every day,\n\n475\n00:22:33.520 --> 00:22:34.480\nall day,\n\n476\n00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.680\nevery station, national stream.\n\n477\n00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:40.520\nAnd the question became less about who do I reach?\n\n478\n00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:44.400\nAnd it got back to what do I have to say?\n\n479\n00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.760\nAnd it changed the whole dynamic.\n\n480\n00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:51.900\nThe PR teams got at the table with the creative agencies and the media teams in\n\n481\n00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:52.560\nways that\n\n482\n00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:56.390\neven within a lot of these companies, CBS is another partner is just talking to\n\n483\n00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:57.320\nthem about\n\n484\n00:22:57.320 --> 00:23:01.080\nhow this forced them to think differently about how they were bringing their\n\n485\n00:23:01.080 --> 00:23:01.640\nmessages\n\n486\n00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:03.520\nout to this community.\n\n487\n00:23:03.520 --> 00:23:05.480\nAnd it's just been a phenomenal journey.\n\n488\n00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:07.520\nWe are co-creating content.\n\n489\n00:23:07.520 --> 00:23:11.440\nWe're doing it with real journalists and some amazing brands.\n\n490\n00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.940\nAnd we've created what's quickly becoming the most trusted news source for\n\n491\n00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:17.160\nblack consumers.\n\n492\n00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:18.840\nAnd we're doing it with the brands.\n\n493\n00:23:18.840 --> 00:23:21.400\nSo the advertising isn't an evil.\n\n494\n00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:23.840\nIt's a critical part of the whole story.\n\n495\n00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:28.010\nAnd there was a time, many times where you could have said, hey, it's just not\n\n496\n00:23:28.010 --> 00:23:28.320\ngoing\n\n497\n00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:29.320\nto work.\n\n498\n00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:33.360\nIt was the worst time to be, we were scraping together all of us.\n\n499\n00:23:33.360 --> 00:23:34.960\nIt was early COVID days.\n\n500\n00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:37.800\nWe didn't know what the outlook was going to look like.\n\n501\n00:23:37.800 --> 00:23:39.920\nWe didn't know if people would be spending again.\n\n502\n00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:41.480\nWe were scrambling.\n\n503\n00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:47.240\nAnd it was certainly not the easiest way to go drive that amount of revenue.\n\n504\n00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:50.400\nBut it's become one of the most important projects we've ever done.\n\n505\n00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:54.080\nAnd certainly there were a million naysayers along the way.\n\n506\n00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:58.500\nAnd we had to go as high up as CEOs of some of these other organizations to get\n\n507\n00:23:58.500 --> 00:23:59.000\nthe kind\n\n508\n00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.160\nof commitment we wanted.\n\n509\n00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:05.800\nBut really, it's fighting the naysayers and taking what sounded like a crazy\n\n510\n00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:06.320\nidea to\n\n511\n00:24:06.320 --> 00:24:08.000\nfocus on at the time.\n\n512\n00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.040\nAnd again, it's become the kind of project.\n\n513\n00:24:10.040 --> 00:24:13.700\nI think anyone who touches it couldn't be more proud of the work that we're\n\n514\n00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:14.200\ndoing.\n\n515\n00:24:14.200 --> 00:24:16.560\nAnd we created something that matters.\n\n516\n00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:20.200\nYou know, I understand you like getting in the weeds and getting your hands\n\n517\n00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.800\ndirty.\n\n518\n00:24:20.800 --> 00:24:24.760\nYou know, while a lot of executives stay, you know, pretty high level.\n\n519\n00:24:24.760 --> 00:24:28.960\nWhat do you think of the big advantages of having your ore in the water as a\n\n520\n00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:30.120\nleader?\n\n521\n00:24:30.120 --> 00:24:33.960\nAnd when did it really pay off for you?\n\n522\n00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:38.370\nWorking in early internet, learning audio, which I don't think is as well\n\n523\n00:24:38.370 --> 00:24:39.160\nunderstood\n\n524\n00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.480\nin the marketing world as it could be.\n\n525\n00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.840\nWhat I love is to get in and really roll up my sleeves.\n\n526\n00:24:45.840 --> 00:24:49.240\nI love a, you know, a strategic line job.\n\n527\n00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.160\nI love to get in like with the Black Information Network.\n\n528\n00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.280\nI was super hands on with the partner who leads that with the brands who were\n\n529\n00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:56.520\ntrying\n\n530\n00:24:56.520 --> 00:25:00.040\nto figure out how to use this new platform in new ways.\n\n531\n00:25:00.040 --> 00:25:03.080\nI don't do that necessarily all day, every day, anymore.\n\n532\n00:25:03.080 --> 00:25:08.840\nBut for me, getting in on these new projects, I loved kind of pushing my way\n\n533\n00:25:08.840 --> 00:25:09.200\naround.\n\n534\n00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:13.640\nI heard opening new doors, finding new talented humans who do different parts\n\n535\n00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:14.840\nof the mix\n\n536\n00:25:14.840 --> 00:25:17.000\nand figuring out what was possible.\n\n537\n00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:20.400\nNow I apply those learnings to projects everywhere.\n\n538\n00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.140\nYou got to get in the kitchen a little bit to understand what you're eating\n\n539\n00:25:23.140 --> 00:25:24.480\nlater, right?\n\n540\n00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.080\nAbsolutely.\n\n541\n00:25:25.080 --> 00:25:28.240\nBeing in the food service business, I understand that metaphor.\n\n542\n00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:29.240\nI'm sure.\n\n543\n00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:33.680\nYou know, something that is true for big companies, and I know you've seen it,\n\n544\n00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.360\nis it can become very difficult to move quickly.\n\n545\n00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:41.040\nHow do you fight against that with your team at iHeart?\n\n546\n00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:44.040\nBecause, you know, you're getting bigger and bigger, you know?\n\n547\n00:25:44.040 --> 00:25:47.280\nWe certainly have a bias towards speed at iHeart.\n\n548\n00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:51.160\nAnd I think it's, again, the nature of being in a company that's live on air\n\n549\n00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:51.760\nall day every\n\n550\n00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:56.100\nday versus maybe like an engineering culture where you're shipping a product\n\n551\n00:25:56.100 --> 00:25:56.760\nevery nine\n\n552\n00:25:56.760 --> 00:26:00.160\nmonths or, you know, the cycles are very different.\n\n553\n00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:04.040\nIf you want to move fast, you have to be willing to trip.\n\n554\n00:26:04.040 --> 00:26:05.280\nYou're going to stumble.\n\n555\n00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:08.800\nYou know, you have to be willing and you have to have a culture that's very\n\n556\n00:26:08.800 --> 00:26:10.000\naccepting of\n\n557\n00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.200\nstumbling and learning and stumbling and learning.\n\n558\n00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.480\nAnd very much that is the culture at iHeart.\n\n559\n00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.740\nYou know, as long as we're not making the same mistakes, we're learning new\n\n560\n00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:20.240\nthings each\n\n561\n00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:22.240\ntime and we're applying them.\n\n562\n00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.120\nWe have a really big appetite for stumbling on occasion.\n\n563\n00:26:26.120 --> 00:26:29.080\nWe just launched iHeartland in the metaverse.\n\n564\n00:26:29.080 --> 00:26:34.200\nAnd I'll tell you, we, there is less I know about what iHeartland in the meta\n\n565\n00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.200\nverse should\n\n566\n00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:36.880\nbe than I do know.\n\n567\n00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:41.020\nAnd yet we're live and millions of people are enjoying these platforms and\n\n568\n00:26:41.020 --> 00:26:41.760\nplaying games\n\n569\n00:26:41.760 --> 00:26:43.520\nas well listening to concerts.\n\n570\n00:26:43.520 --> 00:26:45.920\nAnd it's just it'll be a phenomenal journey.\n\n571\n00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:50.580\nBut a lot of companies would would still be studying and researching what they\n\n572\n00:26:50.580 --> 00:26:51.080\nshould\n\n573\n00:26:51.080 --> 00:26:52.080\ndo.\n\n574\n00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:55.600\nWe just said, let's get at the smartest people we can inside and outside the\n\n575\n00:26:55.600 --> 00:26:56.200\ncompany.\n\n576\n00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.240\nGreat partners like Fortnite and Roblox at the table.\n\n577\n00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:03.980\nThey know these worlds, you know, we know music, we know our fans, we know\n\n578\n00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:04.720\nbrands and\n\n579\n00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:06.960\nwe partnered and you know, it's been phenomenal.\n\n580\n00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:11.580\nWe opened State Farm Park in iHeartland in Roblox and you know, probably the\n\n581\n00:27:11.580 --> 00:27:12.200\nbiggest\n\n582\n00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:17.090\nhit in there is Jake from State Farm, who's there issuing challenges and\n\n583\n00:27:17.090 --> 00:27:18.320\nselling his polo\n\n584\n00:27:18.320 --> 00:27:20.760\nand khakis to kids who acquire enough points.\n\n585\n00:27:20.760 --> 00:27:23.200\nAnd it's just it's a phenomenal journey.\n\n586\n00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.370\nAnd I love partners like State Farm who are in this case who are willing to\n\n587\n00:27:26.370 --> 00:27:27.120\ntake that leap\n\n588\n00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:30.960\nwith us and go, we know less than we then we should.\n\n589\n00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.530\nAnd there's all kinds of risk, but we're going to make the smartest decisions\n\n590\n00:27:34.530 --> 00:27:35.040\nwe can\n\n591\n00:27:35.040 --> 00:27:37.800\nand then we'll let consumers tell us what works.\n\n592\n00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:40.440\nYou've got a lot of people that you have to lead on your team.\n\n593\n00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:44.400\nYou know, what's a one-on-one coaching session like with Gail Trowberman?\n\n594\n00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.600\nYou know, I go back to a lot of times to the basics.\n\n595\n00:27:48.600 --> 00:27:53.640\nRecently did a session for a big chunk of my team on some of the fundamentals.\n\n596\n00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:58.600\nI started my career in PR and I still use this technique every day.\n\n597\n00:27:58.600 --> 00:28:02.200\nAnytime you're going into it, whether it's a client pitch or a meeting with\n\n598\n00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:02.960\nyour manager\n\n599\n00:28:02.960 --> 00:28:07.370\nwhere you want to convince them to do something, change something, invest in\n\n600\n00:28:07.370 --> 00:28:08.040\nyour program,\n\n601\n00:28:08.040 --> 00:28:12.480\nyour project, pretty much everything to me comes down to three ideas said\n\n602\n00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.520\nmultiple times\n\n603\n00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:15.440\nwith some support.\n\n604\n00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:16.440\nIt's never one idea.\n\n605\n00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:20.250\nAnd when you have one idea, it's just relentless and no one hears it and they\n\n606\n00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:21.120\nshut you out.\n\n607\n00:28:21.120 --> 00:28:22.280\nAnd it's early PR training.\n\n608\n00:28:22.280 --> 00:28:25.920\nIf you say one thing, ten times, nothing gets remembered or heard.\n\n609\n00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:27.480\nThey just block it.\n\n610\n00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:31.760\nIf you say three things over and over and over again and keep coming back to\n\n611\n00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:32.240\nthem, you\n\n612\n00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:35.680\nusually can start convincing people of your argument.\n\n613\n00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:39.960\nThere might be a different supporting point or a data point or a proof point,\n\n614\n00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:40.200\nbut only\n\n615\n00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:44.890\nhaving three messages in anything you do, be it an internal meeting or an\n\n616\n00:28:44.890 --> 00:28:46.000\ninternal pitch\n\n617\n00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.080\nor an external client program or project.\n\n618\n00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:51.440\nI do a lot of mentoring around things like that.\n\n619\n00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:53.000\nI call it the triangle.\n\n620\n00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:54.000\nI do it for interviews.\n\n621\n00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.320\nI do it for podcasts.\n\n622\n00:28:55.320 --> 00:28:56.880\nI draw a triangle.\n\n623\n00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.560\nI come up with the three most important things that need to be heard.\n\n624\n00:29:00.560 --> 00:29:03.320\nAnd then I come up with some examples or support points.\n\n625\n00:29:03.320 --> 00:29:07.170\nAnd it's the simplest thing in the world, but I try to coach people on that all\n\n626\n00:29:07.170 --> 00:29:07.440\nthe\n\n627\n00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:08.440\ntime.\n\n628\n00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:17.360\nAnd it's a really good little technique that works for most things in life.\n\n629\n00:29:17.360 --> 00:29:21.570\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Gail Trowerman in just a\n\n630\n00:29:21.570 --> 00:29:22.040\nmoment.\n\n631\n00:29:22.040 --> 00:29:26.150\nNow talking to Gail, it's clear every leader needs to know how to create a\n\n632\n00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:27.120\nculture where\n\n633\n00:29:27.120 --> 00:29:29.160\nbig ideas thrive.\n\n634\n00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:34.080\nAs the CEO of Snap and the guy responsible for building Snapchat, Evan Spiegel\n\n635\n00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:34.680\nknows a\n\n636\n00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.120\nthing or two about big ideas.\n\n637\n00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:40.780\nEvan was one of my very first guests on How Leaders Lead, and I love what he\n\n638\n00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:41.840\nhas to say\n\n639\n00:29:41.840 --> 00:29:44.400\nabout fostering innovation in his company.\n\n640\n00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.200\nWell, in our business, innovation really is everything.\n\n641\n00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.890\nThe business moves so quickly and new companies and little startups come out of\n\n642\n00:29:51.890 --> 00:29:52.640\nnowhere and\n\n643\n00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:54.760\ntake on these giant companies.\n\n644\n00:29:54.760 --> 00:29:58.750\nAnd so remembering that that creativity and innovation really is at the core of\n\n645\n00:29:58.750 --> 00:29:59.320\nbusiness\n\n646\n00:29:59.320 --> 00:30:02.740\nsuccess means that you spend a lot of your time and energy thinking about how\n\n647\n00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:03.160\nto feed\n\n648\n00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:04.240\nthat creativity.\n\n649\n00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.500\nAnd so while kindness may seem like soft for people who aren't familiar with\n\n650\n00:30:08.500 --> 00:30:09.360\nour culture,\n\n651\n00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:13.500\nat the same time, it's absolutely vital to the core of the technology business\n\n652\n00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:13.760\nbecause\n\n653\n00:30:13.760 --> 00:30:17.270\nit allows people to really feel comfortable expressing themselves and take\n\n654\n00:30:17.270 --> 00:30:17.800\nrisks like\n\n655\n00:30:17.800 --> 00:30:18.800\nthat redesign.\n\n656\n00:30:18.800 --> 00:30:22.280\nBecause if we're not constantly reinventing ourselves, then someone else will\n\n657\n00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:22.720\ncome and\n\n658\n00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.080\ndo a better job than we are for our community.\n\n659\n00:30:25.080 --> 00:30:30.020\nGo back and listen to my entire conversation with Evan, episode three here on\n\n660\n00:30:30.020 --> 00:30:30.680\nHow Leaders\n\n661\n00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:31.680\nLead.\n\n662\n00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:38.400\nYeah, I want to shift gears and take you back for a minute.\n\n663\n00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:43.210\nTell us a story from your childhood that impacted the kind of leader you are\n\n664\n00:30:43.210 --> 00:30:43.520\ntoday.\n\n665\n00:30:43.520 --> 00:30:48.960\nIn fifth grade, I had a teacher, Mrs. Burns Stingle at Oakland Elementary\n\n666\n00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.360\nSchool, and she\n\n667\n00:30:50.360 --> 00:30:52.120\nwas not a big fan of mine.\n\n668\n00:30:52.120 --> 00:30:57.860\nI was smart, I did the work, but when it came to writing the essays or the\n\n669\n00:30:57.860 --> 00:30:59.000\npapers on the\n\n670\n00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.960\nbook we were reading or whatever it was, I would find different ways in.\n\n671\n00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:08.200\nMaybe it was a current song lyric or a TV show or something.\n\n672\n00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.520\nAnd she hated the pop culture references.\n\n673\n00:31:11.520 --> 00:31:15.520\nWe had a lot of, it was a great little group of friends in that class.\n\n674\n00:31:15.520 --> 00:31:17.960\nShe called my mom in, and I always got good grades.\n\n675\n00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.370\nSo it wasn't like the person being called to the principal's office or whatever\n\n676\n00:31:21.370 --> 00:31:21.640\n.\n\n677\n00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:25.380\nShe called my mom in for a conference, and she was like, you know, she's like,\n\n678\n00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:25.760\n\"Gail\n\n679\n00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:29.520\nsmart, but she's just never going to make it in this world, and you need to\n\n680\n00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:30.240\nhelp her.\"\n\n681\n00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.680\nBecause she has potential, but she does not take life seriously.\n\n682\n00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:35.680\nAnd look at this.\n\n683\n00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:40.000\nShe referenced a TV sci-fi series in this essay on this book.\n\n684\n00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:43.780\nLook at this, you know, like music lyric in this paper and like stuff like that\n\n685\n00:31:43.780 --> 00:31:44.120\n.\n\n686\n00:31:44.120 --> 00:31:45.480\nAnd it was just, and it was amazing.\n\n687\n00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.680\nA huge credit to my parents because they kind of just laughed about it.\n\n688\n00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:52.800\nAnd like, you know, they were like, \"I'm not going to stop you from being, you\n\n689\n00:31:52.800 --> 00:31:53.120\nknow,\n\n690\n00:31:53.120 --> 00:31:55.000\nhaving fun and being funny.\"\n\n691\n00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:57.600\nAnd it's a huge part of who you are.\n\n692\n00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:00.240\nAnd they, you know, they sort of laughed off that moment.\n\n693\n00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:02.960\nAnd for me, it was a really important moment.\n\n694\n00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.280\nAnd I think we all face it at different change points in our lives.\n\n695\n00:32:06.280 --> 00:32:10.360\nLike, \"Are am I going to show up at Microsoft and iHeart?\"\n\n696\n00:32:10.360 --> 00:32:14.960\nYou know, here on this podcast today is me, or is some version of who I'm\n\n697\n00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:15.640\nsupposed to\n\n698\n00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:19.960\nbe as the CMO, or the podcast guest.\n\n699\n00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:24.200\nAnd you know, I made a decision right way back then that she might ding me for\n\n700\n00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:24.440\nit and\n\n701\n00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:28.970\nI might get a lesser grade, but you know, I was going to be me and believe in\n\n702\n00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:29.360\nwhat I\n\n703\n00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:31.120\ndid and stand by it.\n\n704\n00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:33.560\nAnd it served me fairly well so far.\n\n705\n00:32:33.560 --> 00:32:36.280\nBut I think Mrs. Bernstein called for that.\n\n706\n00:32:36.280 --> 00:32:37.760\nI'd say so.\n\n707\n00:32:37.760 --> 00:32:42.350\nYou know, and I've heard you say that when it comes to content that consumers\n\n708\n00:32:42.350 --> 00:32:42.720\nconsume\n\n709\n00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:49.640\nthese days, you said, and I quote, \"Our eyes are maxed, but our ears have\n\n710\n00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:51.160\nbandwidth.\"\n\n711\n00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:52.800\nExplain what you mean by that.\n\n712\n00:32:52.800 --> 00:32:55.880\nIn the digital age, we've gotten to this visual overload, right?\n\n713\n00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:59.080\nI mean, look at the speed at which we swipe, right?\n\n714\n00:32:59.080 --> 00:33:02.610\nWhile we're, we've got to screw this screen on, we've got a laptop, we've got a\n\n715\n00:33:02.610 --> 00:33:03.280\nphone.\n\n716\n00:33:03.280 --> 00:33:04.960\nSometimes we have a TV screen.\n\n717\n00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.350\nWe're consuming all of this visual media all at once with really fairly low\n\n718\n00:33:09.350 --> 00:33:10.080\nattention\n\n719\n00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:11.640\nand low engagement.\n\n720\n00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:15.000\nAnd we've learned it's a lot of it's becoming wallpaper and there's a ton of\n\n721\n00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:15.680\nstudies that\n\n722\n00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.580\nshow, you know, attention and engagement has been dropping with a lot of video\n\n723\n00:33:20.580 --> 00:33:21.280\nmedia.\n\n724\n00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:24.480\nBut our ears are so much more attentive, right?\n\n725\n00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.200\nThe first thing you hear, if I say, \"David,\" you go, \"Well, you perk up right\n\n726\n00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:28.720\naway.\n\n727\n00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:32.120\nThe sound of your own name is an incredibly powerful device.\"\n\n728\n00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:36.730\nIf you want to understand the simple power of audio, turn off the sound on a\n\n729\n00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:38.200\nhorror movie\n\n730\n00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:43.680\nand just watch it and you'll see a bunch of people go, \"You know, scrape me\n\n731\n00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:44.440\nwith hands\n\n732\n00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:46.280\nflailing and running.\"\n\n733\n00:33:46.280 --> 00:33:48.320\nAnd it just looks ridiculous.\n\n734\n00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:51.640\nBut you add that music bad underneath, right?\n\n735\n00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:55.870\nYou add those beats and, you know, your skin crawls and you're terrified and\n\n736\n00:33:55.870 --> 00:33:56.360\nyou're on\n\n737\n00:33:56.360 --> 00:33:57.840\nthe edge of your seat.\n\n738\n00:33:57.840 --> 00:34:02.800\nAnd I think we're just starting to understand the power of audio for engagement\n\n739\n00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:03.240\nnow that\n\n740\n00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.200\nour ears are wired to the grid more and more.\n\n741\n00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:11.710\nSo wireless headphones have really connected us in a new way to audio all the\n\n742\n00:34:11.710 --> 00:34:12.440\ntime.\n\n743\n00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:16.680\nAnd that's why I think you're seeing radio growth through digital devices.\n\n744\n00:34:16.680 --> 00:34:19.640\nYou're seeing massive growth in podcast listening.\n\n745\n00:34:19.640 --> 00:34:24.960\nIt's really intimate and your brain is the production machine.\n\n746\n00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:28.320\nAnd I don't think most people understand that about audio creative, right?\n\n747\n00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.000\nThe brain is the fastest production machine in the world.\n\n748\n00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:32.200\nWould you have for lunch today, David?\n\n749\n00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:33.200\nCan you see it?\n\n750\n00:34:33.200 --> 00:34:34.200\nWas it good?\n\n751\n00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:35.200\nWas it bad?\n\n752\n00:34:35.200 --> 00:34:37.600\nDid you not have lunch, right?\n\n753\n00:34:37.600 --> 00:34:40.640\nIt was a pretty crummy protein bar, okay?\n\n754\n00:34:40.640 --> 00:34:42.200\nThere you go, see?\n\n755\n00:34:42.200 --> 00:34:43.200\nRight?\n\n756\n00:34:43.200 --> 00:34:46.800\nSo if I took a leap and said, \"Hey, you're, you know, I have all this data on\n\n757\n00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:48.080\nyou,\" right?\n\n758\n00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:53.480\nYou live here and you're this age and you work in this profession and da da da\n\n759\n00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:54.080\nda da da.\n\n760\n00:34:54.080 --> 00:34:57.360\nAnd therefore, I'm going to show you this lunch.\n\n761\n00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.200\nI would be wrong every single time.\n\n762\n00:35:00.200 --> 00:35:04.320\nBut in audio, if I just said, \"Hey, what do you have for lunch today?\"\n\n763\n00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:06.400\nNot so satisfying, was it?\n\n764\n00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:11.200\nWhat if you could have a really healthy salad from so and so or a, right?\n\n765\n00:35:11.200 --> 00:35:15.770\nLike all of a sudden, I have everyone using their own brain to put in the\n\n766\n00:35:15.770 --> 00:35:16.760\npictures and\n\n767\n00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:18.320\nthey're perfectly accurate.\n\n768\n00:35:18.320 --> 00:35:21.040\nDo you remember your first kiss?\n\n769\n00:35:21.040 --> 00:35:23.400\nWhat was the first movie you ever went to, right?\n\n770\n00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:26.080\nAll of a sudden, I can take you to any moment.\n\n771\n00:35:26.080 --> 00:35:29.350\nLike, you know, where you bored last night, nothing to feel like you've watched\n\n772\n00:35:29.350 --> 00:35:29.960\neverything\n\n773\n00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:31.360\nthere is to watch.\n\n774\n00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:35.780\nLike, I can sell you almost anything and make it relevant for you through audio\n\n775\n00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:37.560\nin a minute.\n\n776\n00:35:37.560 --> 00:35:43.480\nAnd video, by creating the picture of it, I'm missing most of the consumers.\n\n777\n00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.320\nMy living room doesn't look like that.\n\n778\n00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:48.680\nMy kids aren't that clean and put together and attentive.\n\n779\n00:35:48.680 --> 00:35:50.440\nYou know, it's always wrong.\n\n780\n00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:53.970\nSo that's to me, the simple power of audio there is the brain is the best\n\n781\n00:35:53.970 --> 00:35:55.040\nproduction machine\n\n782\n00:35:55.040 --> 00:35:57.320\nin the world and in audio advertising.\n\n783\n00:35:57.320 --> 00:35:59.480\nYou get to really tap into it.\n\n784\n00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:02.410\nThere's something in the marketing space that you think is really going to\n\n785\n00:36:02.410 --> 00:36:03.000\nshake things\n\n786\n00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.400\nup, something that most people aren't even thinking about now.\n\n787\n00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:11.620\nMy biased answer is I think consumers were seeing spend about a third of their\n\n788\n00:36:11.620 --> 00:36:12.320\ntime with\n\n789\n00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:13.320\naudio today.\n\n790\n00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:18.520\nAnd for a lot of the reasons, we said smart speakers, wireless earbuds.\n\n791\n00:36:18.520 --> 00:36:22.660\nAnd so I think right now we see about, like I said, 30% of consumer time and\n\n792\n00:36:22.660 --> 00:36:23.380\nmarketers\n\n793\n00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:26.720\nare spending about 10% or less of their budgets.\n\n794\n00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:31.640\nI'm starting to see the ad industry and the marketing industry really wake up\n\n795\n00:36:31.640 --> 00:36:32.200\nto that\n\n796\n00:36:32.200 --> 00:36:35.520\naudio gap and that potential of audio.\n\n797\n00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:39.070\nAnd I know we're on to something when people are starting to ask the question\n\n798\n00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:39.440\nof how do\n\n799\n00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:42.000\nyou do audio creative well?\n\n800\n00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.800\nBecause when people are excited about the how and the creative part of it, I\n\n801\n00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:46.320\nthink that's\n\n802\n00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.000\ngoing to be really interesting.\n\n803\n00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.330\nAnd then I mean, I think the metaverse and blockchain are just, they're going\n\n804\n00:36:52.330 --> 00:36:52.800\nto change\n\n805\n00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:53.800\neverything.\n\n806\n00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:55.600\nIf we learned anything from the internet.\n\n807\n00:36:55.600 --> 00:37:00.120\nI remember asking like what people would or wouldn't buy on the internet.\n\n808\n00:37:00.120 --> 00:37:04.370\nAnd we were, again, our guesses were so wrong and some things accelerated\n\n809\n00:37:04.370 --> 00:37:05.800\nfaster than others.\n\n810\n00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.240\nBut now you can't imagine a world without internet commerce.\n\n811\n00:37:09.240 --> 00:37:15.470\nSo I do think how identity is going to become a bigger, more important part of\n\n812\n00:37:15.470 --> 00:37:16.240\nlife in the\n\n813\n00:37:16.240 --> 00:37:17.320\nmetaverse.\n\n814\n00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:19.960\nI think that's probably one of the most interesting things.\n\n815\n00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.480\nI don't know what that means for us as marketers.\n\n816\n00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:23.480\nRight?\n\n817\n00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:27.120\nAnd blockchain will enable different types of commerce at the end.\n\n818\n00:37:27.120 --> 00:37:32.540\nBut I don't know what it means if I can really become someone something\n\n819\n00:37:32.540 --> 00:37:34.360\ndifferent and navigate\n\n820\n00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:36.480\na world that way.\n\n821\n00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:39.590\nAnd I think that's going to be the biggest difference between, for me, the meta\n\n822\n00:37:39.590 --> 00:37:40.440\nverse and\n\n823\n00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:41.440\nthe internet.\n\n824\n00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:44.390\nYou know, Gail, you know, it's been a lot of fun and I want to have some more\n\n825\n00:37:44.390 --> 00:37:44.920\nfun with\n\n826\n00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.320\na lightning round of questions that I do.\n\n827\n00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:48.720\nAnd I hope you're ready for this.\n\n828\n00:37:48.720 --> 00:37:49.720\nYou ready to go?\n\n829\n00:37:49.720 --> 00:37:50.720\nOkay.\n\n830\n00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:51.960\nAlways dangerous, but let's go.\n\n831\n00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.960\nOkay.\n\n832\n00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.400\nWhat would be three words others would use to describe you?\n\n833\n00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:03.080\nCreative, impatient, fun.\n\n834\n00:38:03.080 --> 00:38:05.320\nYour biggest joy builder.\n\n835\n00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:07.280\nPeople, humans.\n\n836\n00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.160\nYour biggest joy blocker.\n\n837\n00:38:09.160 --> 00:38:10.960\nEmail.\n\n838\n00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:16.000\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be and why?\n\n839\n00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:19.560\nYou know, I guess we're living in a world of anything is possible.\n\n840\n00:38:19.560 --> 00:38:23.830\nI would love to have been in Jim Henson's head for a moment and see what a day\n\n841\n00:38:23.830 --> 00:38:24.040\nin a\n\n842\n00:38:24.040 --> 00:38:27.880\nlife of muppeting was really all about.\n\n843\n00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:32.440\nIf I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear?\n\n844\n00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.480\nOh, who depends who is driving last?\n\n845\n00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:43.320\nYou'd probably hear something loud and, and from of the eighties.\n\n846\n00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:48.320\nIf you could be in any band, what band and what instrument would you be playing\n\n847\n00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:48.320\n?\n\n848\n00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:50.240\nI wish I had musical abilities.\n\n849\n00:38:50.240 --> 00:38:53.710\nSo, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to go back to, I think I'd like to be\n\n850\n00:38:53.710 --> 00:38:54.480\nanimal in\n\n851\n00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:56.280\nthat Muppet band.\n\n852\n00:38:56.280 --> 00:39:00.480\nIt seems like a very cathartic approach to music.\n\n853\n00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:03.640\nWhat's the book on leadership that you learned the most from?\n\n854\n00:39:03.640 --> 00:39:05.520\nI love strength finders.\n\n855\n00:39:05.520 --> 00:39:06.620\nGood to great.\n\n856\n00:39:06.620 --> 00:39:10.790\nI think a lot of those books were really about how to deploy what you're good\n\n857\n00:39:10.790 --> 00:39:11.800\nat versus fighting\n\n858\n00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:13.560\nthe things you're just not.\n\n859\n00:39:13.560 --> 00:39:16.160\nWhat's something about you that few people would know?\n\n860\n00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:17.760\nI'm a wannabe golfer.\n\n861\n00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.520\nI'll talk about that very much.\n\n862\n00:39:19.520 --> 00:39:23.680\nSo I've been hacking around trying to improve my game there.\n\n863\n00:39:23.680 --> 00:39:26.560\nThat's definitely probably off brand for me.\n\n864\n00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:27.560\nAll right.\n\n865\n00:39:27.560 --> 00:39:31.510\nThat wraps up our lightning round, but I have just a couple more questions and\n\n866\n00:39:31.510 --> 00:39:32.200\nI'll let you\n\n867\n00:39:32.200 --> 00:39:33.440\ngo here.\n\n868\n00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:38.440\nAs you think about your career, what do you see as your unfinished business?\n\n869\n00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:41.800\nI'd love to help save marketing from itself.\n\n870\n00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:46.420\nI'd love to help educate and inform and then get back to what makes marketing\n\n871\n00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:47.120\ngreat.\n\n872\n00:39:47.120 --> 00:39:53.050\nI don't think it's a profession and a career that teens today go, I want to do\n\n873\n00:39:53.050 --> 00:39:53.560\nthat.\n\n874\n00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:58.330\nAnd I'd love to help inspire people around how fun it can be to be a marketer\n\n875\n00:39:58.330 --> 00:39:58.800\nand what's\n\n876\n00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:00.040\npossible.\n\n877\n00:40:00.040 --> 00:40:04.360\nIn one sentence, how would you describe what makes marketing great?\n\n878\n00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:06.440\nIt's human psychology.\n\n879\n00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:11.960\nIt's the ability to really understand people, what makes them happy, what motiv\n\n880\n00:40:11.960 --> 00:40:12.800\nates them,\n\n881\n00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:18.630\nwhat inspires them, what pisses them off, and then finding creative ways to get\n\n882\n00:40:18.630 --> 00:40:19.200\npeople\n\n883\n00:40:19.200 --> 00:40:23.410\nwho, let's face it, don't wake up every day and think about your brand or my\n\n884\n00:40:23.410 --> 00:40:23.920\nbrand the\n\n885\n00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:25.080\nway we do.\n\n886\n00:40:25.080 --> 00:40:29.220\nTo get people to want to be part of the club, to want to come to the party that\n\n887\n00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:29.800\nis your\n\n888\n00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:35.100\nbrand and want to be loyal and invested in it the way we are in our own brands\n\n889\n00:40:35.100 --> 00:40:36.200\nand products.\n\n890\n00:40:36.200 --> 00:40:41.070\nLike I think it's just such a great combination of psychology and creativity\n\n891\n00:40:41.070 --> 00:40:42.360\nand data science.\n\n892\n00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:46.100\nIt really brings together a lot of disciplines and it's a game of trial and\n\n893\n00:40:46.100 --> 00:40:46.520\nerror.\n\n894\n00:40:46.520 --> 00:40:49.520\nSo you can always keep playing and learning.\n\n895\n00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:50.920\nLast question.\n\n896\n00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.920\nWhat's one piece of advice you'd give aspiring leaders?\n\n897\n00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:56.400\nJust be fearless.\n\n898\n00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:57.960\nYou'll get knocked down.\n\n899\n00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.600\nThey'll be horrible days.\n\n900\n00:40:59.600 --> 00:41:00.960\nEveryone won't agree.\n\n901\n00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.480\nBut if you have great ideas, just keep making sure they get heard.\n\n902\n00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:10.080\nWell, Gail, you were in the absolute perfect place to keep doing that.\n\n903\n00:41:10.080 --> 00:41:11.080\nOkay.\n\n904\n00:41:11.080 --> 00:41:13.520\nYou're at the great company making great things happen.\n\n905\n00:41:13.520 --> 00:41:16.600\nAnd I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.\n\n906\n00:41:16.600 --> 00:41:17.600\nOh, terrific.\n\n907\n00:41:17.600 --> 00:41:19.120\nIt's been super fun, David.\n\n908\n00:41:19.120 --> 00:41:23.280\nThank you for having me.\n\n909\n00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:32.760\nBoy, I got to say, Gail is such a creative force.\n\n910\n00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:38.240\nHaving her really makes you want to just go out and get moving on big ideas.\n\n911\n00:41:38.240 --> 00:41:41.000\nAnd I love how she looks at creativity.\n\n912\n00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:43.480\nIt's not just about having a big idea.\n\n913\n00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:48.140\nYou've got to pair it with conviction so that that idea finds the traction and\n\n914\n00:41:48.140 --> 00:41:48.960\nthe budget\n\n915\n00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.480\nit needs to become a reality.\n\n916\n00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:55.470\nYou've got to build a culture where others feel comfortable sharing big ideas\n\n917\n00:41:55.470 --> 00:41:55.920\ntoo.\n\n918\n00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:59.160\nThey don't always have to just come from you.\n\n919\n00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:04.230\nAnd you've got to have the courage to fight for big ideas because so often that\n\n920\n00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:04.640\n's what\n\n921\n00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:07.720\nturns into the best work of your career.\n\n922\n00:42:07.720 --> 00:42:12.640\nSo let me ask you what big idea do you need to get people on board with this\n\n923\n00:42:12.640 --> 00:42:13.320\nweek?\n\n924\n00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:17.570\nSo let's take a page from Gail's playbook and try the triangle exercise that\n\n925\n00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:18.280\nshe mentioned\n\n926\n00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:19.960\nin our conversation.\n\n927\n00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:21.600\nShe draws a triangle.\n\n928\n00:42:21.600 --> 00:42:25.530\nShe comes up with the three most important points that need to be heard along\n\n929\n00:42:25.530 --> 00:42:26.280\nwith something\n\n930\n00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:32.520\nto support each point and then she repeats those three things multiple times.\n\n931\n00:42:32.520 --> 00:42:37.160\nIt's a simple exercise, but boy, it's a powerful way you can start putting some\n\n932\n00:42:37.160 --> 00:42:38.320\nconviction behind\n\n933\n00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.480\nthe ideas you want to turn into reality.\n\n934\n00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:43.600\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n935\n00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:47.960\nWhat we learned today is that great leaders fight for big ideas.\n\n936\n00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:53.170\nComing up next week on how leaders lead is Edward Lee, celebrity chef, author\n\n937\n00:42:53.170 --> 00:42:55.120\nand restaurateur.\n\n938\n00:42:55.120 --> 00:43:01.000\nSince people feel like they're just a number or just a worker or just a product\n\n939\n00:43:01.000 --> 00:43:01.840\n, they lose\n\n940\n00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:03.280\nthe passion.\n\n941\n00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:07.570\nAnd so while we are here in the restaurant, I try and make life easy for them\n\n942\n00:43:07.570 --> 00:43:08.240\nand fun.\n\n943\n00:43:08.240 --> 00:43:12.440\nSo be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation.\n\n944\n00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:15.920\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead where every\n\n945\n00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:16.760\nThursday you\n\n946\n00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:21.280\nget to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n947\n00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.730\nI make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n948\n00:43:25.730 --> 00:43:26.480\napply to your\n\n949\n00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.320\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n950\n00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:40.320\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n951\n00:43:40.320 --> 00:44:00.320\n[ Silence ]","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings of the by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. You know, for us leaders, there's just nothing quite as exciting as a good idea. You see all that potential, you just get so excited about the creativity. And I mean, as a leader, it just gives you a rush. But for a lot of leaders, what comes next is a real struggle. They've got this really good idea, but they don't know how to build traction for it and give it the buy in that it deserves. That's why I'm excited for you to hear from Gail tro vermin. today. She's the president and Chief Marketing Officer of iHeartMedia. They got 150 broadcast stations, putting music news and podcasts in the ears of 90% of Americans 90%. So for Gail, that means a great idea can have a whole lot of impact. And boy is she attacking big ideas. She's a vibrant, creative leader, but she doesn't just have good ideas. She knows how to elicit those ideas from her team. And she knows how to make sure they actually get traction and become reality. If you want to learn how to fight for big ideas, then keep listening. Because here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Gail Troubleman.

Tell us a little bit about iHeartMedia. And the scope of your business.

Gayle Troberman 1:46

Sure, I heard at its core is right now 850 broadcast radio stations live on air, unscripted, real humans open mics, having a conversation with nine out of 10 Americans every month. That's the core of our business. And it fuels all the other pieces of our business that we've built. We're the number one podcast network, the most titles, the most downloads, the most listens, the most creators built on our broadcast, radio reach and scale. We connect artists and fans and brands at massive scale every day to have really human connected conversations.

David Novak 2:29

That's fantastic. And you're huge. Yet you've described I heart as the nation's biggest startup, what makes you feel that way

Gayle Troberman 2:39

I work for a phenomenal entrepreneur, bob chapman is our CEO very much believes in and you know, he founded MTV, back when he was 24. And he's been CEO of a ton of amazing organizations. And he's very much an entrepreneurial leader. And you know, I grew up at Microsoft, which was also for its size and scale in the back in the day, particularly when I was there, it was very much an entrepreneurial culture. And that means it's okay to test and learn, we have a corporate value that urgency wins, chaos is okay, things that a lot of companies rebel against. And it's really important, particularly because of the nature of our business, the fact that I honestly don't know what my product is right now. It is in the hands of all of these creators who have massive audiences. And they're deciding what they're going to talk about what every episode of Stuff You Should Know should cover what people care about today on their way home from work in Cincinnati, or Detroit, or Miami or New York. And the fact that we work in this very rapidly changing organic medium, it really helps keep our culture, agile, I guess is the you know, probably overused word. But I've never worked in a culture where you can have an idea today in this conversation, you could pitch me something we could go, that's amazing, we should do it. And we could literally be live on air on 850 stations with it tomorrow. And I didn't realize in all the marketing, I'd done it, you know, Microsoft and other companies just how crazy fast and agile audio could be even more than digital. You know, it's about a 10th of the cost and a 10th of the time on the production side. So speed of sound is a very real mantra here. And I heard

David Novak 4:27

well, I really want to dive deep into how you lead at IR but before I do that, you know you did spend 16 years of your career, climbing the ranks at what you would call another little startup Microsoft. Tell me one of your favorite stories from the early days.

Gayle Troberman 4:43

You know, it was fascinating. I had worked in New York in sort of big agencies in the late 80s, early 90s. And you know, New York was, you know, it's very much business culture, very clear who had the corner offices and the C suite decision makers would come into rooms and you know, decide I'd make decisions and, and when I got to Microsoft, the first thing that really blew my mind was you go into a room and yeah, I'm this new nobody in this internet secret internet projects and, and you didn't know who was the most important person. One of the things that always blew my mind there was that there really was, there was just so much diversity of thought of Age of backgrounds of cultures and, and it really was a place where everyone got heard. And then eventually, somebody who had to make the decision would be like, Okay, I heard everything, we're gonna go do this. But sitting at the table and not being able to discern because of, you know, how expensive someone's watch was, or the power suit they were wearing. Like, there really weren't these artifices of hierarchy at Microsoft, in ways that I think created a much more egalitarian world. The fact that there just weren't those clues that I was used to that was that always that was the first thing that blew my mind there.

David Novak 6:05

As I understand it, when you were at Microsoft, you created marketing campaigns for internet startups. And this was a time when the internet was the wild wild west. I mean, you know, it was

Gayle Troberman 6:17

just like the metaverse today. Yes.

David Novak 6:20

What did you learn from that experience scale?

Gayle Troberman 6:23

You know, it's so easy to look back at so many of the lessons learned. Now, that seems so obvious. But you know, back in the day, everything was new. And we were trying things and everything was a first. So we really were creating what we didn't realize were entirely new disciplines. At the time, we started emailing people about a product called sidewalk in Seattle. And we'd find people who had email lists because probably only 10% of the population were on the internet at that point. And so we'd start emailing people and say, Hey, we've got this new city guide, or like, that became email marketing. We did branded content before that was a thing. We called it custom publishing with brands, we created new ad types, many of them horrible, you know, leave behind ads over the page ads, we had to learn like people don't love being interrupted between the thing they chose to go to and the actual content they wanted. And, and we learned all of these amazing lessons about how to how to build businesses at the time, we didn't really realize all of those things that we were using as little marketing tools for Expedia, or car point or home advisor sidewalk, we're actually going to become entire marketing disciplines and ecosystems. You know, we did some of the first submit a video, we did a project with Visa years and years and years ago, we're ahead of its time with dial up speed, where you had to create a video to pitch a business idea that visa would fund. And we were blown away. I think we got something like back in the day, maybe 10 20,000 videos submitted. And and it was so it was Shark Tank meets YouTube, right back in the day. And we were blown away by the level of engagement back then. Because these are not easy things to go do or submit. And yeah, I should have created a business for each and every one of them. And I would I wouldn't be retired.

David Novak 8:23

I don't think you'd be retired. You love what you're doing too. But your work or I could tell you enjoy that, you know, and Well, speaking of first, you became Microsoft's first chief creative officer, you know, tell me the story about how that rule came together.

Gayle Troberman 8:38

I worked for our CMO at the time at Microsoft who was a real original Microsoft employee, one of the early early early crew building that business. And we were fighting some really aggressive marketing battles. So Apple had started running a little campaign, you may recall the I'm a Mac, I'm a PC ads, remember at massive scale on TV every night. And Mitch Matthews, who was the CMO at the time, she called me up and she was like, you know, the I'm a Mac, I'm a PC ads, Have you have you seen that campaign? And I was like, of course. And she's like, Well, we really need to respond. Typically, we marketed windows when a new version came out. And we do a big new version, we'd mark it with all the hardware PC makers and and people would go buy new laptops and with them, you would get Windows and Office and we didn't really have to mark it Windows as a consumer product. So Apple as they were getting more aggressive forced us to do that. And, and she called me and she was like, so I'd love to go hire one of those, you know, genius creatives out there in the Adland like so and so or so. And so she's like, but I'm not sure they can survive the discipline of Microsoft. So would you come run advertising, and I had taken that job and I got into it and we hired those amazing agencies and creative geniuses and we really do Make some terrific marketing work and, and holding our ground on, you know, Windows share, which was enormous. And then it became clear, the more I got into running advertising at Microsoft, that 90% of my job was becoming organizational and operational, because we're marketing in 31 countries around the world with local marketing teams and national teams. And, and Mitch was wise enough to see that and say, I have a million people at this company who can go operationalize. It's an engineering culture. She's like, I really need you to take these great ideas that people bring us and navigate them around Redman, and make sure they don't break before they get into the world. And that was, I think, the first client side Chief Creative Officer role that she created. Because we were very good at taking genius ideas, and letting the masses of opinions, kind of iterate them out of relevance. As we navigated the company, best job one of the best jobs I ever had, by far so much fun. And I learned so much from a lot of those agency gurus. Well, you're

David Novak 11:06

a renowned, creative person in your own right. And you know that a lot of people struggle with being creative. What kind of advice would you give people on how they can become maybe even more creative than they think they are?

Gayle Troberman 11:19

You know, for me, I think creativity and risk taking and conviction are so intertwined. It's really believing in an idea enough to let it breathe, let it find the oxygen, let it find dollars, let it find a platform to get into the world. And a lot of time that takes pushing against the norms, breaking rules, doing things that make you uncomfortable. We've been wrestling with a lot of that year and I heart to and we do phenomenally well with consumers. And you know, like I said, we reach nine out of 10 consumers, we have phenomenal platforms, and in podcasting, and events, and of course, all our radio brands, and personalities. But we struggle a little bit with marketers, marketers don't quite understand the power of audio, and then the power of I Heart as the leader in audio. And so, you know, I've been wrestling a lot with trying to take my own advice about how do I actually break some of the rules in b2b marketing? And how do I get some of the most cynical people on the planet who played this marketing game every day, to pay attention, and be willing to take a risk, because doing what you've always done is an easy way to not get fired, doing the new, big innovative things that could get you fired is usually how you do the best work of your career. So I think a lot of it is just really being willing to take a risk.

David Novak 12:43

Yeah, I couldn't agree more as there's some great insight there. And you mentioned earlier about some of your Microsoft meetings where you'd be in there with the engineer, and you were the marketing person that you guys would fight it out. And you've actually said that one of the things you learned at Microsoft was the importance of having a culture where passionate people really fight for their ideas. How are you bringing that same mentality to your own team there at I heart

Gayle Troberman 13:09

COVID was such an interesting ride. I think I know, for us as a leadership team, at I heart, I feel like I was able to get some bolder, more transformative new ideas and programs out into the world. And one of the things I took away from that is so often, you know, we have a pretty large leadership team that's geographically distributed. And because of, obviously, the urgency of COVID, the massive business pressures we were all facing. And the fact that we were now on this teams, or zoom, like device, I realized the power of all of us on the same call looking each other in the eye, and just saying yes or no. And I've really, it sounds like such a simple thing. You know, we have so many meetings in the course of your day or your week, about one small topic, but having consistency with my peers, and in programming and events and podcasting, and to just go, you know, what should we do? Here's a moment, we have a problem. We need revenue here, or we need to reach people there and getting all of us together to just usually it only takes an hour to go what's possible. What can we do? Are we all in if we're all in Great, now we can work with our teams to go execute. So that was one big takeaway. We used to rely on being in rooms together so much, and we're starting to get pretty good at communicating with like, asynchronous docs. And, you know, it's so much faster if you have 20 people, you want to pick their brains to just throw up a question and have everyone break into small groups type in what they came out of it with and we've been working with some consultants and stuff to to just just get better at the speed of you don't need meetings with 20 people to get ideas and then write them up and and vet them again, and then take them here and take them there and take them through 18 steps. If we can just collapse some of that linear process into a single meeting using technology. That's something you know, I wouldn't say we've mastered. But we're definitely on a journey. And we're really seeing, again, for the speed we move, these kinds of tools are invaluable. Get 20 people's ideas, raw, rough, but they're written there in front of you. And you can you all know, you go, Oh, my God, that's the one. And it's usually somebody who might not have even been in the meeting, if we'd scheduled date is more of an in person situation.

David Novak 15:41

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It's so obvious that you have such a strong action orientation, sense of urgency, you obviously you know, your creative person, you know, it's hard to find people that have those skills that I just described, all wrapped up into one. How involved do you get in the hiring process? How do you make sure you're bringing in people like yourself that aligns with what you want to have happen on your team?

Gayle Troberman 17:19

I would almost argue the opposite David of I may not need tons more people like me, I need people who think differently than me. And, you know, I think we need good pairings of super creative people versus super strategic thinkers versus analysts versus, you know, people who are more operational. So when, you know, a creative person has a crazy idea, somebody operational can go, oh, let me break that down. We could build this, do that. Put that there. So for me, it's always about building teams that are more sort of multi high finit people who understand and respect creativity, but not just teams of creatives.

David Novak 17:59

You know, one thing that I've observed people like yourself, who are creative, and you're able to come up with the ideas, you kind of say, I don't need people like me, I need other than that I That sounds really nice. But what happens if you go away?

Gayle Troberman 18:14

No, I'd certainly need some we have a killer creative.

David Novak 18:18

Because I think people like yourself, you take you're so good at what you do. A lot of times you take it for granted, but it's pretty hard to find people who have that idea generation capability.

Gayle Troberman 18:29

Yeah, and I think you have to create environments where people feel comfortable sharing ideas where, you know, there's no right or wrong idea. You know, I get dinged a lot. It's funny, I think fast, I talk fast. It's just how I operate. And, and I think so often people misinterpret that is like, I have to have the right idea. Also be the first one to look at a breakout session and go that oh my god, that that's an idea. And I don't even care whose idea it was or where it came from. It's like, that's a better idea, or that makes this idea better. And do you think, you know, that's the world we live in, and in a collaborative world, and particularly at I heart where we're reaching nine out of 10 Americans, you've also got to really think about a diverse team, you know, in all the dimensions, diverse backgrounds. You know, I think marketing, you know, it's not like we're doing surgery. I think there's so many amazing marketers who didn't grow up in marketing or study marketing, but really just have good instincts about people or about business. So I always look for, like diversity of all types, cultural, gender, geographic age, every kind of diversity, I think makes us better, particularly when we're in our product is for everyone. We really need to take all of that into account.

David Novak 19:46

Do you have a time when you can look back and you say you and your team had an idea that you really had to fight for that people didn't get?

Gayle Troberman 19:55

I think the work I'm recently you know, is talking about during COVID When I look back at Some of these new franchises we built and built with other of my peers within I heart who, you know, again, they're not my ideas, they're great ideas that we got into the world. One of them that was phenomenal project was in June of year, one of COVID. May, June, right around the George Floyd murder and the world was blowing up on so many levels. And there's an exact, really amazing leader at I heart, Tony Coles, and he'd had this sort of skunkworks project, he'd been bouncing around with an insight that black consumers don't trust news. They don't watch news, listen to news and trust news, exponentially higher rates than the average American word trust isn't all that high either. And, and he had sort of this project he'd been batting around. And all of a sudden, lots of brands were trying to do things that mattered and reach black consumers in ways that matter. And we in a matter of like a month or so created a 24/7, Black news network vi n, the black Information Network. And I heart, we started flipping broadcast radio stations, from other formats to 24/7 News. We're now up to about 35 stations around the nation physical broadcast stations, and we have a national digital stream, we've become one of the biggest employers of Black Journalists. Because of that. It's all black journalists telling you the news through a lens for black listeners and anyone else, it's amazing high quality news, but we have to fund it. And if we go ask advertisers to come by ads in it, then I'm going to be incenting the journalists to do everything that's corrupted journalism, drive, like the most salacious headlines to get the most clicks and the most listens. And it all falls apart. And we said, how do we work around that. And we ended up deciding to get brands that really wanted a voice to the black consumer to co fund the black information network with us. Eight founding partners, multi year commitments, Bank of America, Lowe's, Sony, Geico, 23, and me McDonald's. We worked with those brands and said, We're not going to sell you ads. We're not going to report impressions. This is about you're part of this network, you have access to our data, our insights are journalists, you have at least 60 seconds an hour to do whatever you want with every day all day, every station national stream, and the question became less about who do I reach? And it got back to what do I have to say. And it changed the whole dynamic the PR teams got at the table with the creative agencies, and the media teams in ways that even within a lot of these companies, CBS is another partner, I was just talking to them about how this forced them to think differently about how they were bringing their messages out to this community. And it's just been a phenomenal journey. We are co creating content. We're doing it with real journalists, and some amazing brands. And we've created what's quickly becoming the most trusted news source for black consumers. And we're doing it with the brand's so the advertising isn't an evil. It's a critical part of the whole story.

David Novak 23:23

And there was a time many times where you could have said, hey, it's just not gonna work out.

Gayle Troberman 23:28

It was the worst time to be, you know, we were scraping together all of us, it was, you know, early COVID days, we didn't know what the ad outlook was going to look like. We didn't know if people would be spending again, we were scrambling and it was certainly not the easiest way to go drive that amount of revenue, but it's become one of the most important projects we've ever done. And certainly there were a million naysayers along the way. And we had to go as high up as CEOs of some of these other organizations to get the kind of commitment we wanted. But really, it's fighting the naysayers and taking that what sounded like a crazy idea to focus on at the time. And again, it's become the kind of project I think anyone who touches it couldn't be more proud of the work that we're doing and we created something that matters.

David Novak 24:15

You know, I understand you you like getting in the weeds and getting your hands dirty. You know, well a lot of executive state you know, pretty high level. What do you think the big advantages of having your oar in the water as a leader and and when did it really pay off for you

Gayle Troberman 24:33

working in early internet learning audio, which I don't think is as well understood in the marketing world as it could be. What I love is to get in and really roll up my sleeves I love a you know, a strategic line job. I love to get in like like with the black Information Network. I was super hands on with the partner of the leads that with the brands who were trying to figure out how to use this new platform in new ways. I don't do that necessarily all day every day anymore. But for me getting in on these new projects, I loved kind of pushing my way around, I heard opening new doors, finding new, talented humans who do different parts of the mix, and figuring out what was possible. Now I apply those learnings to projects everywhere. You got to get in the kitchen a little bit to understand what you're eating later, right?

David Novak 25:24

Absolutely been in the foodservice business I understand that metaphor. Something that is true for big companies, and I know you've seen it is it can become very difficult to move quickly. How do you fight against that with your team at I heart because you know, you're getting bigger and bigger, you know,

Gayle Troberman 25:43

we certainly have a bias towards speed at I heart. And I think it's, again, the nature of being in a company that's live on air all day, every day, versus maybe like an engineering culture where you're shipping a product every nine months, or, you know, the cycles are very different. If you want to move fast, you have to be willing to trip, you're gonna stumble, you know, you have to be willing and you have to have a culture that's very accepting of stumbling and learning and stumbling and learning. And very much that is the culture at I heart. You know, as long as we're not making the same mistakes. We're learning new things each time and we're applying them we have a really big appetite for for stumbling on occasion. We just launched I Heartland in the metaverse, and I'll tell you, we we there's a lot less I know about what I hear land in the metaverse should be then then I do know, we are live and millions of people are enjoying these platforms, and playing games while listening to concerts. And it's just it'll be a phenomenal journey. But a lot of companies would would still be studying and researching what they should do. We just said, let's get the smartest people we can inside and outside the company great partners like fortnight and Roblox at the table. They know these worlds, you know, we know music. We know our fans, we know brands. And we partnered and you know, it's been phenomenal. We opened State Farm Park in I Heartland in Roblox. And you know, probably the biggest hit in there is Jake from State Farm. They're issuing challenges selling his polo and khakis to kids who acquire enough points. And it's just it's a phenomenal journey. And I love partners like StateFarm, who are in this case who are willing to take that leap with us and go we know less than we than we should. And there's all kinds of risk, but we're going to make the smartest decisions we can and then we'll let consumers tell us what works.

David Novak 27:37

You got a lot of people that you have to lead on your team, you know, what's a one on one coaching session like with Gail Troubleman.

Gayle Troberman 27:45

You know, I go back to the A lot of times to the basics, I recently did a session for a big chunk of my team on some of the fundamentals, I started my career in PR. And I still use this technique every day, anytime you're going into it, whether it's a client pitch or a meeting with your manager where you want to convince them to do something, change something, invest in your program, your project, pretty much everything to me comes down to three ideas said multiple times with some support. It's never one idea. And when you have one idea, it's just relentless, and no one hears it and they shut you out. And it's early PR training. If you say one thing, 10 times nothing gets remembered or heard, they just block it. If you say three things over and over and over again and keep coming back to them, you usually can start convincing people of your argument, there might be a different supporting point or a data point or a proof point. But only having three messages in anything you do. Be it an internal meeting or an internal pitch or an external client program or project. I do a lot of mentoring around things like that, I call it the triangle. I do it for interviews, I do it for podcasts, I I draw a triangle, I come up with the three most important things that need to be heard. And then I come up with some examples or support points. And it's the simplest thing in the world. But I tried to coach people on that all the time. And it's it's a really good little technique that works for most things in life.

David Novak 29:17

Will be back with the rest of my conversation with Gail Troubleman in just a moment. Now talking to Gail, it's clear, every leader needs to know how to create a culture where Big Ideas thrive. As the CEO of snap and the guy responsible for building Snapchat, Evan Spiegel knows a thing or two about big ideas. Evan was one of my very first guests on how leaders lead and I love what he has to say about fostering innovation in his company.

Evan Spiegel 29:44

Well in our business innovation really is everything the business moves so quickly, you know, new companies and little startups come out of nowhere and take on these these giant companies and so remembering that that creativity and innovation really is at the core of business success. means that you spend a lot of your time and energy thinking about how to feed that creativity. And so while kindness may seem like soft, for people who aren't familiar with our culture at the same time, it's absolutely vital to the core of the technology business, because it allows people to really feel comfortable expressing themselves and take risks like that redesign. Because if we're not constantly reinventing ourselves than someone else who will come in and do a better job than we are for our community,

David Novak 30:24

go back and listen to my entire conversation with Evan, episode three here on how leaders lead. Yeah, I want to shift gears and take you back for a minute. Tell us a story from your childhood that impacted the kind of leader you are today.

Gayle Troberman 30:43

In fifth grade, I had a teacher Mrs. Burns single Oaklawn elementary school, and she was not a big fan of mine, I was smart and did the work. But you know, when it came to like writing the essays, or the papers on, you know, the book we were reading, or whatever it was, I would find different ways in maybe it was a current song lyric or a TV show or something and, and she hated the pop culture references, and we had a lot of you know, is a great little group of friends in that class. And she called my mom in, you know, and I always got good grades. So it wasn't like the person being called to the principal's office or whatever. But she called my mom and for a conference, and she was like, you know, she's like, Gal smart, but she's just never going to make it in this world. And you need to help her because she has potential, but she does not take life seriously. And look at this, she referenced a TV Sci Fi series in this essay on this book, and look at this, you know, like music lyric in this paper, and like stuff like that. And it was just, it was amazing, a huge credit to my, to my parents, because they kind of just laughed about it. And like, you know, they were like, I'm not going to stop you from being you know, having fun and being funny. And, and it's a huge part of who you are. And, and they, you know, they sort of laughed off that moment. And for me, it was, it was a really important moment. And I think we all face it at different change points in our lives, like are, am I going to show up at Microsoft at I heart, you know, here on this podcast today as me, or as some version of who I'm supposed to be as the CMO or the podcast guest and you know, made a decision right way back then that she might ding me for it. And I might get a lesser grade. But, you know, I was gonna be me, and believe in what I did and stand by it. And it served me fairly well, so far. But I think Mrs. Burns didn't go for that.

David Novak 32:35

I'd say so. You know, and I've heard you say that when it comes to content that consumers consume these days, you said, and I quote, our eyes are maxed, but our ears have bandwidth. Explain what you mean by that.

Gayle Troberman 32:52

In the digital age, we've gotten to this visual overload, right? I mean, look at the speed at which we swipe right while we're, we've got this screen on, we've got a laptop, we've got a phone, sometimes we have a TV screen, we're consuming all of this visual media all at once with really fairly low attention and low engagement. And we've learned it's a lot of it's becoming wallpaper. And there's a ton of studies that show you know, attention and engagement has been dropping with a lot of video media. But our ears are so much more attentive, right? The first thing you hear if I say, David, you go, Well, you pick up right away the sound of your own name is an incredibly powerful device. If you want to understand the simple power of audio, turn off the sound on a horror movie. And just watch it and you'll see a bunch of people get you know, screaming rave man's flailing and running and it just looks ridiculous. But you add that music bed underneath, right? You add those beats and your skin crawls, and you're terrified, and you're on the edge of your seat. And I think we're just starting to understand the power of of audio for engagement. Now that our ears are wired to the grid more and more. So wireless headphones have really connected us in a new way to audio all the time. And that's why I think you're seeing radio growth through digital devices. You're seeing massive growth in podcast listening. It's really intimate. And your brain is the production machine. And I don't think most people understand that about audio creative, right? The brain is the fastest production machine in the world. What do you have for lunch today? David? Can you see it? Is it good or bad? You do not have lunch? Right?

David Novak 34:37

It was a pretty crummy protein bar. Okay.

Gayle Troberman 34:40

There you go. See? Right. But if I so if I took a leap and said hey, you're you know, I have all this data on you, right? You're you live here and you're this age and your work in this profession. And therefore I'm going to show you this lunch. I would be wrong every single time. But in audio, if I just said, Hey, what do you have for lunch today? Not so satisfying? Was it? What if you could have a really healthy salad from so and so or? Right? Like, all of a sudden, I have everyone using their own brain to put in the pictures, and they're perfectly accurate. Do you remember your first kiss? What was the first movie you ever went to? Right? All of a sudden, I can take you to any moment, like, you know, reboard last night, nothing, no feel like you've watched everything there is to watch. Like, I can sell you almost anything and make it relevant for you through audio in a minute. And video, by creating the picture of it, I'm missing most of the consumers. My living room doesn't look like that my kids aren't that clean and put together and attentive, you know, it's always wrong. So that's, to me, the simple power of audio there is the brain is the best production machine in the world and audio advertising, you get to really tap into it. What's something

David Novak 35:59

in the marketing space that you think is really going to shake things up something that most people aren't even thinking about? Now?

Gayle Troberman 36:05

My biased answer is, I think consumers we're seeing spend about a third of their time with audio today. And for a lot of the reasons we said smart speakers, wireless earbuds. And so I think right now we see about, like I said, 30% of consumer time, and marketers are spending about 10% or less of their budgets. I'm starting to see the ad industry and the marketing industry really wake up to that audio gap and that potential of audio. And I know we're onto something when people are starting to ask the question of how do you do audio creative? Well, because when people are excited about the how, and the creative part of it, I think that's going to be really interesting. And then I mean, I think the metaverse and blockchain are just they're going to change everything. If we learned anything from the internet. I remember asking like what people would or wouldn't buy on the internet. And we were there again, our guesses were so wrong, and some things accelerated faster than others. But now, you can't imagine a world without internet commerce. So I do think how, how identity is going to become a bigger, more important part of life in the metaverse. I think that's probably one of the most interesting things. I don't know what that means for us as marketers, right? I know the blockchain will enable different types of commerce at the end. But I don't know what it means if I can really become someone something different, and navigate a world that way. And I think that's going to be the biggest difference between for me the metaverse and the internet.

David Novak 37:41

You know, Gail, you know, there's been a lot of fun and I want to have some more fun with a lightning round of questions that I do. And I hope you're ready. You're ready to go. Okay.

Gayle Troberman 37:49

Always dangerous, but let's go. Okay, what

David Novak 37:52

would be three words others would use to describe you.

Gayle Troberman 37:58

Creative, impatient, fun,

David Novak 38:02

your biggest joy builder,

Gayle Troberman 38:04

people, humans,

David Novak 38:07

your biggest joy blocker email. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself? Who would it be and why?

Gayle Troberman 38:15

You know, I guess we're living in a world of anything's possible. I would love to have been in Jim Henson's head for a moment and see what a day in a life of marketing was really all about.

David Novak 38:27

If I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear?

Gayle Troberman 38:33

Ooh, depends who was driving last? You probably hear something loud. And in front of the 80s.

David Novak 38:43

If you could be in any band, what band and what instrument would you be playing?

Gayle Troberman 38:48

I wish I had musical abilities. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to I think I'd like to be animal in that Muppet band. Seems like a very cathartic approach to music.

David Novak 39:00

What's the book on leadership that you learn the most from?

Gayle Troberman 39:03

I love Strength Finders, Good to Great. I think a lot of those books were really about how to deploy what you're good at versus fighting the things you're just not.

David Novak 39:13

What's something about you that few people would know. I am a want to be golfer.

Gayle Troberman 39:16

I don't talk about that very much. So I've been hacking around trying to improve my game there. That's definitely probably off brand for me.

David Novak 39:26

All right, that wraps up our lightning round that I have a just a couple more questions. And I'll let you go here. As you think about your career, what do you see as your unfinished business?

Gayle Troberman 39:38

I'd love to help save marketing from itself. I'd love to help educate and inform and and get back to what makes marketing great. You know, I don't think it's a profession and a career that teams today go I want to do that. And I'd love to help inspire people around, you know, how fun it can be to be a marketer, and what's possible

David Novak 39:59

you In one sentence, how would you describe what makes marketing great?

Gayle Troberman 40:04

It's human psychology. It's the ability to really understand people, what makes them happy, what motivates them, what inspires them, what pisses them off, and then finding creative ways to get people who, let's face it, don't wake up every day and think about your brand or my brand, the way we do to get people to want to be part of the club, to want to come to the party that is your brand, and want to be loyal and invested in it the way we are in our own brands and products. Like, I think it's just such a great combination of psychology and creativity and data science. It really brings together a lot of disciplines, and it's a game of trial and error. So you can always keep playing and learning.

David Novak 40:49

Last question, what's one piece of advice you'd give aspiring leaders,

Gayle Troberman 40:54

just be fearless, you'll get knocked down. There'll be horrible days, everyone won't agree. But if you have great ideas, just keep making sure they get heard.

David Novak 41:05

Well, Gail, you are in the absolute perfect place to keep doing that. You were the great company making great things happen. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Gayle Troberman 41:16

Oh, terrific. It's been super fun. David, thank you for having me.

David Novak 41:28

Boy, I gotta say Gail is such a creative force, talking to her really makes you want to just go out and get moving on big ideas. And I love how she looks at creativity. It's not just about having a big idea. You've got a parent with conviction, so that that idea finds the traction and the budget, it needs to become a reality. You've got to build a culture where others feel comfortable sharing big ideas, too. They don't always have to just come from you. And you got to have the courage to fight for big ideas, because so often, that's what turns into the best work of your career. So let me ask you what big idea you need to get people on board with this week. So let's take a page from Gail's playbook and try the triangle exercise that she mentioned in our conversation. She draws a triangle, she comes up with the three most important points that need to be heard, along with something to support each point. And then she repeats those three things multiple times. It's a simple exercise. But boy, it's a powerful way you can start putting some conviction behind the ideas you want to turn into reality. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders fight for big ideas. Coming up next week on how leaders lead is Edward Lee, celebrity chef, author, and restaurant tour.

Edward Lee 42:54

Once people feel like they're just a number or just a worker or just a product, they lose the passion. And so while we are here in the restaurant, I try and make life easy for them and fun.

David Novak 43:08

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

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