[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_137":-5,"_138":-5,"_139":140,"_141":142,"_143":144},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/2432/youre-defined-by-what-you-do-not-what-you-say","id",2432,"title","You're defined by what you do, not what you say","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.000\nwe are defined by what we do, not just what we say.\n\n2\n00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:07.400\nAnd what I found at large companies,\n\n3\n00:00:07.400 --> 00:00:09.240\nand I think Wells Fargo fell into this trap\n\n4\n00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:12.200\na little bit too much is we spent a lot of time\n\n5\n00:00:12.200 --> 00:00:15.120\nputting on a piece of paper what our vision was,\n\n6\n00:00:15.120 --> 00:00:18.640\nwhat our values were, which is not unimportant.\n\n7\n00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:20.960\nBut then do we ask ourselves,\n\n8\n00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:23.600\nare we living it every single day?\n\n9\n00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:26.560\nAre we really making decisions based upon the framework\n\n10\n00:00:26.560 --> 00:00:29.000\nthat we said, this is what we wanna be?\n\n11\n00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:30.160\nI always use the example of people\n\n12\n00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:32.440\nalways talk about put the customer first.\n\n13\n00:00:32.440 --> 00:00:34.600\nI mean, I don't know a company that stands up\n\n14\n00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:36.440\nand says they're not gonna put the customer first.\n\n15\n00:00:36.440 --> 00:00:37.920\nBut then when you go ask the question,\n\n16\n00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:40.680\nare we making decisions every day based upon that?\n\n17\n00:00:40.680 --> 00:00:43.400\nOr are we making decisions that we think are better\n\n18\n00:00:43.400 --> 00:00:45.040\nfor an employee here in terms of\n\n19\n00:00:45.040 --> 00:00:46.720\nwhether it's gonna drive their compensation?\n\n20\n00:00:46.720 --> 00:00:48.360\nAre we making a decision because we think\n\n21\n00:00:48.360 --> 00:00:50.760\nit's gonna make us more money?\n\n22\n00:00:50.760 --> 00:00:52.360\nAnd so if you really believe that,\n\n23\n00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:54.600\nif you've got a set of fair products and services\n\n24\n00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:56.920\nthat are priced fairly out there,\n\n25\n00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:58.880\nthat if you're doing the right thing for the customer,\n\n26\n00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:01.200\nthen you'll eventually be rewarded.\n\n27\n00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.080\nAnd so using that lens,\n\n28\n00:01:03.080 --> 00:01:04.880\nbut not just having it on a piece of paper,\n\n29\n00:01:04.880 --> 00:01:08.360\nasking the question, are we actually making decisions\n\n30\n00:01:08.360 --> 00:01:12.520\nbased upon those expectations that we've set for ourselves?\n\n31\n00:01:12.520 --> 00:01:14.080\nThat's what's gonna define us.\n\n32\n00:01:14.080 --> 00:01:17.320\nAnd ultimately our culture is gonna be defined by\n\n33\n00:01:17.320 --> 00:01:20.000\nthe way people view us, whether it's our customers,\n\n34\n00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:21.320\nwhether it's people who work there,\n\n35\n00:01:21.320 --> 00:01:22.900\nwhether it's people in our communities,\n\n36\n00:01:22.900 --> 00:01:24.920\nthat's gonna define what the company is,\n\n37\n00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:26.720\nnot what's on our sheet of paper.\n\n38\n00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:28.600\nYou want those two things to agree,\n\n39\n00:01:28.600 --> 00:01:31.160\nbut you have to live it every single day.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",2124000,"end_time",2214859,"keywords","Setting the example, role model, values, walk the talk, decision making,","slug","youre-defined-by-what-you-do-not-what-you-say","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","PhV1q3skOi5OpdTM0141asC00QgoktHFhcCgc63bMZi00E","mux_asset_id","Wt1oV00CL01rdo9Eu6N00eo9FikynavOqXXXaL01eHNwUVs","leader_id",185,"episode_id",336,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:52:35.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/2432/youre-defined-by-what-you-do-not-what-you-say","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_101":102,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_25":107,"_108":109,"_62":110,"_59":110,"_111":112,"_69":113,"_39":114,"_115":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_116":117,"_89":118,"_44":119,"_120":121,"_122":123,"_46":-5,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_93":128,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":-5,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":-5,"_89":-5,"_46":-5,"_90":91,"_92":-5,"_93":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Set the right example","set-the-right-example","Learn how your actions (not just your words) can help you build a stronger team and culture. Get an inside look at a major turnaround. Plus, see why it’s OK if your career path isn’t a straight line.","summary","

Every leader casts a shadow.

As a leader, you can’t just SAY what your priorities and values are (although that’s crucial).

You’ve got to set the example yourself, so your decisions and actions align with those priorities.

To see how it’s done, listen to this conversation with Charlie Scharf, the CEO and President of Wells Fargo. He took over in 2019, which, as you may recall, was a real low point in the company.

Hit play now to hear how he’s leading the turnaround there — and why leaders can accomplish SO much more when they set the right example for their teams.

You’ll also learn:

How to drive change in a culture of complacency
The key factor most people overlook in a turnaround
What really defines your culture (it’s not what you think)
Why it’s OK if your career path isn’t a straight line

Take your learning further. Get proven leadership advice from these (free!) resources:

The How Leaders Lead App: A vast library of 90-second leadership lessons to stay sharp on the go

Daily Insight Emails: One small (but powerful!) leadership principle to focus on each day

Whichever you choose, you can be sure you’ll get the trusted leadership advice you need to advance your career, develop your team, and grow your business.

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.080\nWelcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I\n\n2\n00:00:08.080 --> 00:00:08.680\ninterview some\n\n3\n00:00:08.680 --> 00:00:10.800\nof the very best leaders in the world.\n\n4\n00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.160\nI break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have\n\n5\n00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:14.720\nsomething\n\n6\n00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:18.840\nsimple you can apply as you develop into a better leader.\n\n7\n00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:21.920\nThat's what this podcast is all about.\n\n8\n00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:28.060\nYou've probably heard the tongue-in-cheek expression, \"Do as I say, not as I do\n\n9\n00:00:28.060 --> 00:00:28.160\n.\"\n\n10\n00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.920\nAnd you've probably worked with people who lead that way, saying one thing, but\n\n11\n00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:33.360\ndoing\n\n12\n00:00:33.360 --> 00:00:35.800\nsomething entirely different.\n\n13\n00:00:35.800 --> 00:00:39.880\nWell, my guest today is not that kind of leader.\n\n14\n00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:44.200\nCharlie Sharp is the CEO and president of Wells Fargo.\n\n15\n00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:49.420\nHe took over in 2019, which, as you may know, if you follow the banking\n\n16\n00:00:49.420 --> 00:00:50.840\nindustry, was a real\n\n17\n00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:53.240\nlow point in the company.\n\n18\n00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.730\nBut listen, the turnaround he's leading there is remarkable, and you're going\n\n19\n00:00:57.730 --> 00:00:58.480\nto hear all\n\n20\n00:00:58.480 --> 00:01:00.320\nabout it today.\n\n21\n00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:04.320\nYou'll also hear a leader who understands that you can't just say what your\n\n22\n00:01:04.320 --> 00:01:05.080\npriorities\n\n23\n00:01:05.080 --> 00:01:08.520\nand values are, although that's crucial.\n\n24\n00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:13.180\nYou've got to set the example yourself so your decisions and actions align with\n\n25\n00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:13.600\nthose\n\n26\n00:01:13.600 --> 00:01:15.000\npriorities.\n\n27\n00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:18.940\nThat's how you earn the respect and trust you need to get people working\n\n28\n00:01:18.940 --> 00:01:19.760\ntogether and\n\n29\n00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:23.200\nfollowing you and believing in you.\n\n30\n00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:24.800\nLet's see how it's done.\n\n31\n00:01:24.800 --> 00:01:30.200\nHere's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Charlie Sharp.\n\n32\n00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:38.680\nYou know, Charlie, I knew you were into tennis.\n\n33\n00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:44.200\nI knew you were into golf, but I learned that you're also a woodworker.\n\n34\n00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:47.560\nAnd you're the only leader I know who's a woodworker.\n\n35\n00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:49.560\nWhat's the best thing you ever made?\n\n36\n00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:54.440\nThe best thing I ever made was I built a library in a house I owned years ago.\n\n37\n00:01:54.440 --> 00:01:59.560\nAnd when I say built, I raw wood delivered to the house, started from scratch,\n\n38\n00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:00.200\ncreated\n\n39\n00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:04.290\nmy own molding, built shelves, and I gather it's still standing because we know\n\n40\n00:02:04.290 --> 00:02:04.800\nthe people\n\n41\n00:02:04.800 --> 00:02:05.800\nthat own the house.\n\n42\n00:02:05.800 --> 00:02:06.800\nThat is so great.\n\n43\n00:02:06.800 --> 00:02:10.910\nYou know, and I got to ask you, what's an essential skill and woodworking that\n\n44\n00:02:10.910 --> 00:02:11.360\nyou've\n\n45\n00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:13.640\ncarved into your leadership?\n\n46\n00:02:13.640 --> 00:02:16.710\nWell, I would say one of the essential skill, but the other reason why I\n\n47\n00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:17.440\nenjoyed it.\n\n48\n00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:21.160\nThe one is the essential skill was you've got to be precise.\n\n49\n00:02:21.160 --> 00:02:24.160\nYou know, when you're building something, it has to fit together.\n\n50\n00:02:24.160 --> 00:02:25.160\nEvery eighth of an inch matters.\n\n51\n00:02:25.160 --> 00:02:28.410\nYou got to plan ahead and you've got to know what that precision is going to\n\n52\n00:02:28.410 --> 00:02:29.320\nlook like.\n\n53\n00:02:29.320 --> 00:02:31.560\nAnd the same thing's true when you're running a big organization.\n\n54\n00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:34.720\nAnd stuff happens, you got to figure out how to adapt to it, but you got to go\n\n55\n00:02:34.720 --> 00:02:35.080\ninto it\n\n56\n00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:36.400\nwith a real plan.\n\n57\n00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:37.680\nThat's precise.\n\n58\n00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:41.710\nBut the reason why I really enjoy doing things like that is because you need to\n\n59\n00:02:41.710 --> 00:02:42.360\nclear your\n\n60\n00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:48.760\nmind, you need to do things that you focus on, that allow yourselves to unwind,\n\n61\n00:02:48.760 --> 00:02:49.320\nand that\n\n62\n00:02:49.320 --> 00:02:54.220\nenables me to put even more focus back into work because I'm able to decompress\n\n63\n00:02:54.220 --> 00:02:55.000\nin various\n\n64\n00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:56.000\nways.\n\n65\n00:02:56.000 --> 00:02:59.810\nWhen you unwind like that and you reflect as they would work, or do you ever\n\n66\n00:02:59.810 --> 00:03:00.320\nrecall an\n\n67\n00:03:00.320 --> 00:03:05.000\nidea that really came to you as you were doing that craft?\n\n68\n00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.040\nI think about people differently.\n\n69\n00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:09.600\nWhen I'm in the moment, I react.\n\n70\n00:03:09.600 --> 00:03:11.720\nWe're having a two-way conversation.\n\n71\n00:03:11.720 --> 00:03:17.090\nBut when you go off and you have a chance to unwind, I have a chance to reflect\n\n72\n00:03:17.090 --> 00:03:17.560\non what\n\n73\n00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:18.720\nare people really like?\n\n74\n00:03:18.720 --> 00:03:20.360\nWhat are they really saying?\n\n75\n00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:21.680\nHow intuitive are they?\n\n76\n00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:23.920\nAre they compassionate about others?\n\n77\n00:03:23.920 --> 00:03:27.840\nSo I think about people much more broadly when I'm reflecting back on the\n\n78\n00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:28.720\nconversation\n\n79\n00:03:28.720 --> 00:03:32.880\nwhen I have time to not to be in the moments and be dealing with the issue.\n\n80\n00:03:32.880 --> 00:03:34.400\nIt makes a lot of sense.\n\n81\n00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.160\nI can't wait to talk to you about how you're leaving at Wells Fargo.\n\n82\n00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:40.240\nBut first, I want to take you back to the beginning.\n\n83\n00:03:40.240 --> 00:03:44.420\nWhat's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are\n\n84\n00:03:44.420 --> 00:03:45.040\ntoday?\n\n85\n00:03:45.040 --> 00:03:49.490\nFirst of all, I was very, very lucky to grow up in a really great, close family\n\n86\n00:03:49.490 --> 00:03:49.720\n.\n\n87\n00:03:49.720 --> 00:03:55.190\nBut the family values were about being ethical and they were about taking\n\n88\n00:03:55.190 --> 00:03:56.600\nresponsibility for\n\n89\n00:03:56.600 --> 00:03:59.920\nyourself and just working really hard.\n\n90\n00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:05.840\nI started working summer jobs when I was 12 years old.\n\n91\n00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.040\nI don't mean just paper roots and things like that.\n\n92\n00:04:08.040 --> 00:04:12.010\nI did that when I was younger, but I really started instead of going to just\n\n93\n00:04:12.010 --> 00:04:12.560\ncamp and\n\n94\n00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.080\nthings like that, getting a summer job for the whole summer and working.\n\n95\n00:04:16.080 --> 00:04:21.580\nIt was very much about improving yourself, figuring out how the real world\n\n96\n00:04:21.580 --> 00:04:22.680\noperates out\n\n97\n00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:23.680\nthere.\n\n98\n00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:27.760\nSo I used to work summers, I was living in New Jersey, I used to commute into\n\n99\n00:04:27.760 --> 00:04:28.440\nManhattan\n\n100\n00:04:28.440 --> 00:04:30.120\nwith my dad.\n\n101\n00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.180\nIt was very much about just the growing experience and about what you're\n\n102\n00:04:34.180 --> 00:04:35.200\nlearning, about how\n\n103\n00:04:35.200 --> 00:04:38.240\nthe real world actually operates.\n\n104\n00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.640\nAnd you grow up to know that if there's a world out there that you can get to\n\n105\n00:04:42.640 --> 00:04:43.240\nknow and\n\n106\n00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.630\nif you put the effort into it with the right kinds of opportunities, and I was\n\n107\n00:04:46.630 --> 00:04:47.200\nvery lucky\n\n108\n00:04:47.200 --> 00:04:52.560\nthat way for sure, but you've got to make something for yourself.\n\n109\n00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:56.990\nAnd I also remember you telling me once that at the Sharp House, no one ever\n\n110\n00:04:56.990 --> 00:04:58.160\nmissed dinner.\n\n111\n00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:59.560\nI mean, yeah, you had to be there.\n\n112\n00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.000\nNow, what do you remember most about those dinner conversations?\n\n113\n00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000\nSo you're right.\n\n114\n00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.800\nI was incredibly lucky.\n\n115\n00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:08.520\nMy dad had a job where he really didn't travel.\n\n116\n00:05:08.520 --> 00:05:12.000\nMy mom, when I was growing up, was a school teacher.\n\n117\n00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:15.120\nAnd so we had dinner together every single night.\n\n118\n00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.240\nIt was a small house and it was a small, eat and airy.\n\n119\n00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.200\nWe're all very, very close.\n\n120\n00:05:20.200 --> 00:05:25.120\nI wouldn't describe it as formal, but everyone, we shared what we did that day.\n\n121\n00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.200\nWe shared what we learned.\n\n122\n00:05:27.200 --> 00:05:29.160\nWe shared what we wanted to do.\n\n123\n00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:35.180\nAnd what I remember most about it was it wasn't an intellectual conversation,\n\n124\n00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:36.200\nbut the conversations\n\n125\n00:05:36.200 --> 00:05:39.240\nwere all about we all cared about each other.\n\n126\n00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:42.040\nWe all wanted to know what each other was going through.\n\n127\n00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:44.480\nWe wanted to know what we were experiencing.\n\n128\n00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:49.020\nAnd you just walked away in retrospect knowing that you had this incredible\n\n129\n00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:49.960\nsupport network\n\n130\n00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:54.200\nthat I've thought a lot about both as I've been a parent, but also the\n\n131\n00:05:54.200 --> 00:05:55.360\nresponsibility\n\n132\n00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:57.960\nyou have at work when you manage people.\n\n133\n00:05:57.960 --> 00:06:02.800\nYou've been a superstar in the world of banking for a long, long time.\n\n134\n00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:06.580\nBut what was it that you learned about yourself that made you want to get into\n\n135\n00:06:06.580 --> 00:06:07.200\nfinance in\n\n136\n00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:09.200\nthe first place?\n\n137\n00:06:09.200 --> 00:06:12.700\nSo I had a lot of summer jobs in the business world and my dad was in the\n\n138\n00:06:12.700 --> 00:06:13.800\nbusiness world.\n\n139\n00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:17.400\nBut when I went to college, my thought was I wanted to be a research chemistry.\n\n140\n00:06:17.400 --> 00:06:18.680\nI loved science.\n\n141\n00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:21.280\nI was good at science in school.\n\n142\n00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:27.280\nAnd so I went to school and I took all these chemistry classes and I realized\n\n143\n00:06:27.280 --> 00:06:28.360\nvery, very\n\n144\n00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:33.000\nquickly that I didn't want to live my life in a lab, no windows, not really\n\n145\n00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:33.720\nengaging\n\n146\n00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:35.000\nwith people.\n\n147\n00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.600\nThat what I really loved was being part of something.\n\n148\n00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:42.970\nI loved being the idea of working with a group of people as a team and building\n\n149\n00:06:42.970 --> 00:06:43.960\nsomething.\n\n150\n00:06:43.960 --> 00:06:46.840\nAnd that's what I saw business could be.\n\n151\n00:06:46.840 --> 00:06:51.400\nAnd I was lucky enough to see that that was possible, to know that you could\n\n152\n00:06:51.400 --> 00:06:52.080\nwork with\n\n153\n00:06:52.080 --> 00:06:56.420\na group of people who cared about you, that you'd be able to grow alongside\n\n154\n00:06:56.420 --> 00:06:56.960\nthat.\n\n155\n00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:01.590\nAnd so the idea of working with people, working with a group, doing something\n\n156\n00:07:01.590 --> 00:07:02.720\nother than just\n\n157\n00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:07.440\nsitting by yourself in a lab without any windows, that was far more appealing.\n\n158\n00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:08.440\nThat's how I wound up pivoting.\n\n159\n00:07:08.440 --> 00:07:13.870\nNow, as you know, Charlie, I'm more of a marketing person and I got to know how\n\n160\n00:07:13.870 --> 00:07:14.560\nin the world\n\n161\n00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:21.180\nsomething is what could be perceptually perceived to be as dry as finance gives\n\n162\n00:07:21.180 --> 00:07:21.800\nyou so much\n\n163\n00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:23.640\njoy because it does.\n\n164\n00:07:23.640 --> 00:07:24.640\nIt does.\n\n165\n00:07:24.640 --> 00:07:28.730\nFirst of all, I think I grew up with finance because my dad was in financial\n\n166\n00:07:28.730 --> 00:07:29.560\nservices.\n\n167\n00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:31.520\nMy dad was an investment advisor.\n\n168\n00:07:31.520 --> 00:07:33.760\nAnd so we talked about the financial services world.\n\n169\n00:07:33.760 --> 00:07:35.320\nWe talked about the stock markets.\n\n170\n00:07:35.320 --> 00:07:36.520\nThat's the way I grew up.\n\n171\n00:07:36.520 --> 00:07:37.520\nVery different.\n\n172\n00:07:37.520 --> 00:07:40.600\nMy wife's, both parents were in the telecommunications world.\n\n173\n00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:42.560\nAnd so those were their conversations.\n\n174\n00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:46.590\nSo our conversations were about financial services and about how financial\n\n175\n00:07:46.590 --> 00:07:47.640\nservices and how those\n\n176\n00:07:47.640 --> 00:07:50.360\nproducts and services really help people.\n\n177\n00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:52.360\nAnd so I felt comfortable with it.\n\n178\n00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:56.010\nBut what ultimately you come to realize is you could have a meaningful impact\n\n179\n00:07:56.010 --> 00:07:56.640\non people's\n\n180\n00:07:56.640 --> 00:08:01.380\nlives if you work in an organization which is broad enough and does the right\n\n181\n00:08:01.380 --> 00:08:02.040\nthing.\n\n182\n00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.880\nWhat would you say was your first big break in your career?\n\n183\n00:08:05.880 --> 00:08:09.340\nWhen I was in college and I was going through the interview process, I went to\n\n184\n00:08:09.340 --> 00:08:09.880\nschool in\n\n185\n00:08:09.880 --> 00:08:13.530\nGeorge Johns Hopkins, but I really wanted to be back in New York and I wanted\n\n186\n00:08:13.530 --> 00:08:13.880\nto work\n\n187\n00:08:13.880 --> 00:08:16.120\nfor a large financial services company.\n\n188\n00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:21.050\nBut my dad said to me, you really should think about this little company called\n\n189\n00:08:21.050 --> 00:08:21.880\nCommercial\n\n190\n00:08:21.880 --> 00:08:25.450\nCredit, little company that was based in Baltimore, which had just been taken\n\n191\n00:08:25.450 --> 00:08:27.120\nover by Sandy Weil\n\n192\n00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.560\nwho had started and built Sheerson and became president of American Express and\n\n193\n00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:32.320\nJamie Diamond\n\n194\n00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.040\nwho was his CFO.\n\n195\n00:08:34.040 --> 00:08:36.560\nAnd he said, you know, this is a small company.\n\n196\n00:08:36.560 --> 00:08:37.560\nThese are great people.\n\n197\n00:08:37.560 --> 00:08:39.040\nThey're going to do great things.\n\n198\n00:08:39.040 --> 00:08:43.780\nHe encouraged me and he actually helped get my resume to Jamie who interviewed\n\n199\n00:08:43.780 --> 00:08:44.240\nme and\n\n200\n00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:45.840\nhired me.\n\n201\n00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:50.720\nAnd the amazing thing was you just knew when you met these people that they\n\n202\n00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:51.600\nwere people\n\n203\n00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:55.360\nthat were going to do something much bigger than what that company was and they\n\n204\n00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:55.800\nwanted\n\n205\n00:08:55.800 --> 00:08:58.000\nto bring people along with them.\n\n206\n00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:02.770\nYou know, I kind of stumbled into it because my dad knew of Sandy and knew had\n\n207\n00:09:02.770 --> 00:09:03.720\na connection\n\n208\n00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:09.440\nat my dad's cousin was close to Jamie's dad and that got my resume to Jamie.\n\n209\n00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:14.600\nAnd without that role, I'm not sure the succeeding roles would have happened\n\n210\n00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:15.720\nbecause I was just\n\n211\n00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:20.820\nin a small company that grew into a very, very large company and was able to\n\n212\n00:09:20.820 --> 00:09:21.720\ngrow myself\n\n213\n00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:24.880\nalong the way in ways that I think are just not always typical.\n\n214\n00:09:24.880 --> 00:09:29.060\nSo you get this opportunity to work alongside Jamie Diamond and it's become one\n\n215\n00:09:29.060 --> 00:09:29.840\nof the greatest\n\n216\n00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.280\nCEOs of our time at JPMorgan Chase.\n\n217\n00:09:33.280 --> 00:09:38.260\nThis is the biggest thing you picked up from Jamie that you've brought to Wells\n\n218\n00:09:38.260 --> 00:09:39.000\nFargo.\n\n219\n00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.340\nYou know, I think what I learned along the way from Jamie is there's management\n\n220\n00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:43.800\nand there's\n\n221\n00:09:43.800 --> 00:09:47.680\nleadership and both are really important.\n\n222\n00:09:47.680 --> 00:09:50.400\nAnd sometimes people get those two things confused.\n\n223\n00:09:50.400 --> 00:09:52.280\nThey substitute one for the other.\n\n224\n00:09:52.280 --> 00:09:56.160\nBut when you're running a large complex organization, you've got to manage the\n\n225\n00:09:56.160 --> 00:09:57.120\nplace, right?\n\n226\n00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:58.560\nYou've got to have the right people in place.\n\n227\n00:09:58.560 --> 00:09:59.560\nYou got to have the right priorities.\n\n228\n00:09:59.560 --> 00:10:01.280\nYou got to have the right disciplines.\n\n229\n00:10:01.280 --> 00:10:04.100\nYou got to do all those things which when you think of what it takes to run a\n\n230\n00:10:04.100 --> 00:10:04.840\ngood company,\n\n231\n00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:06.240\nreally matter.\n\n232\n00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.560\nBut at the same time, when you're leading a large group of people, they want to\n\n233\n00:10:09.560 --> 00:10:10.720\nbe led\n\n234\n00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:16.940\nand they want a leader that they have confidence in, who they can relate to,\n\n235\n00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:18.400\nwho they believe\n\n236\n00:10:18.400 --> 00:10:23.780\nhas the best interests of a broad group of people, not just themselves, their\n\n237\n00:10:23.780 --> 00:10:24.360\ncareer\n\n238\n00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:26.280\nor a small group of people.\n\n239\n00:10:26.280 --> 00:10:30.150\nYou know, I think when I look back in life, if I had a choice of people saying\n\n240\n00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:30.520\nhe was\n\n241\n00:10:30.520 --> 00:10:34.180\na really great leader or he was really great manager, I'd much rather say he\n\n242\n00:10:34.180 --> 00:10:34.840\nwas a really\n\n243\n00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:35.840\ngreat leader.\n\n244\n00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.860\nSo I think it can be much more impactful as a leader than just in terms of what\n\n245\n00:10:39.860 --> 00:10:40.200\nit takes\n\n246\n00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:41.200\nto manage.\n\n247\n00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.680\nYou know, Charlie, I had the great pleasure of watching you in action when I\n\n248\n00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:46.280\nwas on the\n\n249\n00:10:46.280 --> 00:10:52.070\nbank one and then the JP Morgan Chase boards and you're an avid learner and I\n\n250\n00:10:52.070 --> 00:10:52.840\nsaw you grow\n\n251\n00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:54.280\na lot.\n\n252\n00:10:54.280 --> 00:10:58.520\nAfter doing the CFO job, you headed up all of retail for JP Morgan Chase.\n\n253\n00:10:58.520 --> 00:11:02.440\nWhat's the most impactful story of what you learned in that job?\n\n254\n00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:07.600\nSo what I learned in running these large retail organizations, which are retail\n\n255\n00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:08.480\norganizations\n\n256\n00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:09.960\nare about people.\n\n257\n00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.210\nAnd retail organizations, I think it's the same because I came and I remember\n\n258\n00:11:13.210 --> 00:11:13.640\nspending\n\n259\n00:11:13.640 --> 00:11:17.520\ntime with you and talked about, you know, what makes Yum successful.\n\n260\n00:11:17.520 --> 00:11:20.690\nI had the opportunity in the past to look at different financial services,\n\n261\n00:11:20.690 --> 00:11:21.360\nretail-based\n\n262\n00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:22.360\norganizations.\n\n263\n00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.680\nBut what you come to understand is it is about the people.\n\n264\n00:11:26.680 --> 00:11:30.970\nAnd if yes, you've got to have the right products and services, you've got to,\n\n265\n00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:31.840\nif you've got\n\n266\n00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.120\nreally interesting marketing, incredibly helpful.\n\n267\n00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:40.140\nBut ultimately, the power of getting a group of people to work together doesn't\n\n268\n00:11:40.140 --> 00:11:40.560\nmatter\n\n269\n00:11:40.560 --> 00:11:44.480\nwhat you're doing, whether it's rowing about running a financial services\n\n270\n00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:45.280\ncompany, building\n\n271\n00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:50.100\nthe business in a bank branch, running a local supermarket, whatever it is, you\n\n272\n00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:50.280\nget\n\n273\n00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:55.920\nthose people working together and treating them like their owners, like they're\n\n274\n00:11:55.920 --> 00:11:56.380\nreally\n\n275\n00:11:56.380 --> 00:12:01.080\nresponsible for that and approach your role like you're there to support them.\n\n276\n00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.360\nThere's incredible power in that.\n\n277\n00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.950\nAnd you know, you get people working together, you give them some of the basic\n\n278\n00:12:06.950 --> 00:12:07.480\ntools and\n\n279\n00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.280\na lot of respects just get out of the way.\n\n280\n00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:14.240\nAs you know, recognize people for what they do, share the great stories.\n\n281\n00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:17.290\nIt doesn't matter whether you're managing one branch, a hundred branches, a\n\n282\n00:12:17.290 --> 00:12:17.720\nthousand\n\n283\n00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:21.730\nbranches or five thousand branches, that magic is still the same if you can get\n\n284\n00:12:21.730 --> 00:12:22.400\nthat group\n\n285\n00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:26.400\nof people working together and then replicating that same thing.\n\n286\n00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:29.600\nYou know, some people never really get that, Charlie.\n\n287\n00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:33.380\nYou know, did you ever have that aha moment or the epiphany where you saw\n\n288\n00:12:33.380 --> 00:12:34.240\nsomething that\n\n289\n00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:37.560\njust said, oh, you know, when I, when I, what it's all about, this goes back to\n\n290\n00:12:37.560 --> 00:12:37.920\nwhen I was\n\n291\n00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:42.010\na commercial credit, there was a guy named Bob Leb who you know, Bob ran the,\n\n292\n00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:42.280\nran the\n\n293\n00:12:42.280 --> 00:12:50.020\nbranch system and he was just adamant about, he used to talk about treating\n\n294\n00:12:50.020 --> 00:12:50.520\npeople like\n\n295\n00:12:50.520 --> 00:12:51.600\ngrownups.\n\n296\n00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.200\nVery often when you're at the top of the company, you think you know everything\n\n297\n00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:55.320\nand\n\n298\n00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.540\nyou've got to be very prescriptive about telling everyone what to do all the\n\n299\n00:12:58.540 --> 00:12:59.320\ntime because you\n\n300\n00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:00.480\nknow.\n\n301\n00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.480\nAnd in reality, it's just the opposite.\n\n302\n00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:06.700\nIt's you need to figure out what you could do to be supportive of everyone who\n\n303\n00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:07.480\n's actually\n\n304\n00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.560\ndealing with customers every day.\n\n305\n00:13:09.560 --> 00:13:12.710\nHome Depot used to talk about when you do an org chart, you put the people who\n\n306\n00:13:12.710 --> 00:13:13.360\nwere closest\n\n307\n00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.940\nto the customer at the top and store support, which was the, you know, the\n\n308\n00:13:16.940 --> 00:13:18.280\ncorporate headquarters\n\n309\n00:13:18.280 --> 00:13:20.000\nwas at the bottom.\n\n310\n00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.480\nAnd if you think about things that way, you're there to support everyone else.\n\n311\n00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:27.300\nAnd so what I saw was the way Bob implemented that and you do it by treating\n\n312\n00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:27.920\npeople, if\n\n313\n00:13:27.920 --> 00:13:30.600\nyou were your own company, how would you want to be treated?\n\n314\n00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.080\nYou'd have your results.\n\n315\n00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.400\nYou would have latitude to do a certain set of things.\n\n316\n00:13:34.400 --> 00:13:38.230\nYes, there are guide rails in terms of within people have to work, but you\n\n317\n00:13:38.230 --> 00:13:39.240\nactually saw the\n\n318\n00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.320\npower of letting people manage their people and be embedded in those\n\n319\n00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:44.400\ncommunities.\n\n320\n00:13:44.400 --> 00:13:47.450\nNow we're big financial services companies, so we've got to make sure that we\n\n321\n00:13:47.450 --> 00:13:47.920\ndo things\n\n322\n00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:48.920\nright.\n\n323\n00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:50.160\nWe have to have certain standards.\n\n324\n00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:53.480\nSo this isn't, you know, people can do whatever they want, just like when you\n\n325\n00:13:53.480 --> 00:13:54.000\nwere young,\n\n326\n00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.040\nyou know, they want to do consistency in a lot of respects of certain things.\n\n327\n00:13:58.040 --> 00:14:02.300\nBut you want to bring out those individual characteristics where people day in\n\n328\n00:14:02.300 --> 00:14:02.760\nand day\n\n329\n00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:06.720\nout come in and can figure out how to do a great job for people that are\n\n330\n00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:07.760\nwalking through\n\n331\n00:14:07.760 --> 00:14:09.680\nthe door or that are in that community.\n\n332\n00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:12.320\nYeah, it's like a freedom within a framework.\n\n333\n00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:13.320\nYes, absolutely.\n\n334\n00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:18.920\nAnd you know, then your first public company CEO job was at Visa.\n\n335\n00:14:18.920 --> 00:14:22.360\nWhat do you learn at Visa that you're putting into action today?\n\n336\n00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.230\nYou know, I remember when I went to Visa, I got a bunch of calls from people,\n\n337\n00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:26.480\nsome who\n\n338\n00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.990\nI had worked with in the past, who'd gone on to CEO roles, others who I didn't\n\n339\n00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:31.600\nknow who\n\n340\n00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:33.280\njust just wanted to be nice.\n\n341\n00:14:33.280 --> 00:14:38.950\nAnd they said, you know, these jobs can be, they're hard, but they can be very\n\n342\n00:14:38.950 --> 00:14:39.600\nlonely.\n\n343\n00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:48.580\nAnd you need to think about how you are going to allow yourself to process and\n\n344\n00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:49.560\nto deal with\n\n345\n00:14:49.560 --> 00:14:53.240\nall the things that are coming at you, because you don't know what it's going\n\n346\n00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:53.640\nto be.\n\n347\n00:14:53.640 --> 00:14:55.040\nAnd one day things are going to be great.\n\n348\n00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:57.600\nAnd then the next day you're going to have some crisis and then you're going to\n\n349\n00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:57.840\nhave\n\n350\n00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.560\na people problem.\n\n351\n00:14:59.560 --> 00:15:01.000\nAnd that's just what happens.\n\n352\n00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:05.850\nAnd what you have to remember is that everyone in that organization is looking\n\n353\n00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:06.480\nat you.\n\n354\n00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.520\nEveryone wants to know how you're feeling.\n\n355\n00:15:08.520 --> 00:15:10.720\nThey're going to sense when you're in a good mood or a bad mood.\n\n356\n00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:14.500\nThey're going to sense when you feel like things are upper or you're feeling\n\n357\n00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:14.960\ndown.\n\n358\n00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.200\nAnd that could set the mood of the company.\n\n359\n00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:22.400\nAnd as a leader, you need to figure out what tone you want to set.\n\n360\n00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:26.570\nAnd so when I think about wells and I think about what we've had to deal with\n\n361\n00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:26.760\nhere, we've\n\n362\n00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:29.040\ngot a lot of hard work that's got to get done.\n\n363\n00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:31.640\nWe've got some hard decisions that we have to make.\n\n364\n00:15:31.640 --> 00:15:35.080\nI've had some very good days and I've had some very bad days.\n\n365\n00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:40.480\nBut what's most important is if you believe you're doing the right thing, if\n\n366\n00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:41.080\nyou know\n\n367\n00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:45.570\nthat you're making progress along the way, that you've got to send that message\n\n368\n00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:45.960\nto the\n\n369\n00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:46.960\norganization.\n\n370\n00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.960\nWe've got to be honest about what's worked well and what hasn't worked well.\n\n371\n00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.570\nBut people have to believe that you've got the confidence, that you believe\n\n372\n00:15:56.570 --> 00:15:57.600\nthat you've\n\n373\n00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:02.220\ngot the team in place, that regardless of these ups or downs, that they should\n\n374\n00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:02.520\nfeel\n\n375\n00:16:02.520 --> 00:16:06.440\nproud and confident to be part of the team that they're on.\n\n376\n00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:07.440\nAbsolutely.\n\n377\n00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.500\nAnd I know when you went to Visa, you earned a lot of praise, Charlie, and got\n\n378\n00:16:11.500 --> 00:16:12.000\na lot of\n\n379\n00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:17.760\naccolades from analysts and investors and insiders for basically breaking\n\n380\n00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:18.920\ntradition.\n\n381\n00:16:18.920 --> 00:16:21.280\nTell me a story of how you did that.\n\n382\n00:16:21.280 --> 00:16:24.150\nThat actually is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, which is you go\n\n383\n00:16:24.150 --> 00:16:24.760\nto a company\n\n384\n00:16:24.760 --> 00:16:27.040\nwhich was extremely successful.\n\n385\n00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:31.200\nVisa was and still is the largest and most successful payments company in the\n\n386\n00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:31.800\nworld.\n\n387\n00:16:31.800 --> 00:16:35.430\nThe company had gone public four years before I got there and the stock was up\n\n388\n00:16:35.430 --> 00:16:36.040\nprobably\n\n389\n00:16:36.040 --> 00:16:37.800\ntwo or three times.\n\n390\n00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:43.230\nAnd so I show up as a first time CEO and what you recognize is all those things\n\n391\n00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:43.640\nI said\n\n392\n00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:44.640\nwere true.\n\n393\n00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:47.220\nBut if we just kept doing things the same way, we were going to lose our\n\n394\n00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:47.760\nposition.\n\n395\n00:16:47.760 --> 00:16:48.920\nWe had to evolve.\n\n396\n00:16:48.920 --> 00:16:52.280\nWe had to embrace different things that we weren't necessarily embracing,\n\n397\n00:16:52.280 --> 00:16:52.800\nwhether it\n\n398\n00:16:52.800 --> 00:16:56.560\nwas partnerships, whether it was what was happening in the digital space.\n\n399\n00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:01.270\nAnd so trying to convince people that what had made them successful for the\n\n400\n00:17:01.270 --> 00:17:02.240\npast probably\n\n401\n00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:06.460\n40 years that the company was in existence wasn't going to be good enough going\n\n402\n00:17:06.460 --> 00:17:07.240\nforward.\n\n403\n00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:09.600\nAnd that was a challenge.\n\n404\n00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:13.490\nBut what I also found, people think when you have these leadership roles that\n\n405\n00:17:13.490 --> 00:17:13.920\nyou can just\n\n406\n00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.200\ntell people what to do and they'll do things because you're in charge.\n\n407\n00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:22.000\nAnd that might be true for a day or for a week or for a month.\n\n408\n00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:26.190\nBut that comes to an end because people aren't just going to blindly follow a\n\n409\n00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:26.920\nleader.\n\n410\n00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:31.100\nBut what's most impactful is when people actually understand what it is you're\n\n411\n00:17:31.100 --> 00:17:31.720\nthinking\n\n412\n00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:32.720\nand why you're thinking it.\n\n413\n00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.560\nYou're making them part of the conversation.\n\n414\n00:17:34.560 --> 00:17:35.960\nYou're making part of the dialogue.\n\n415\n00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:40.080\nAnd you're making people part of figuring out how we get from here to there.\n\n416\n00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:44.790\nAnd so making sure that people understood when I got to Visa that I was when\n\n417\n00:17:44.790 --> 00:17:45.440\nyou look\n\n418\n00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:49.800\nat the past success that it is incredible that a lot of it was due to the\n\n419\n00:17:49.800 --> 00:17:50.640\npeople that\n\n420\n00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.200\nwere still there.\n\n421\n00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.470\nBut those are the people also that are going to be the most impactful for the\n\n422\n00:17:55.470 --> 00:17:56.080\nnext 10,\n\n423\n00:17:56.080 --> 00:17:57.760\n15, 20 years.\n\n424\n00:17:57.760 --> 00:18:01.700\nAnd giving them the latitude to think more broadly about how the world has to\n\n425\n00:18:01.700 --> 00:18:02.280\nevolve.\n\n426\n00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:06.240\nAnd giving people the license when in fact you're pushing.\n\n427\n00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.640\nBut you want them to believe you're giving them the opportunity to take that\n\n428\n00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:11.680\nnext step.\n\n429\n00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:16.220\nAnd you'll be there alongside them was something which I think is extremely\n\n430\n00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:17.080\nimpactful.\n\n431\n00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:20.400\nThat's like having a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo.\n\n432\n00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.980\nSo the way how you made it healthy was it was it because you acknowledged the\n\n433\n00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:26.480\nsuccess\n\n434\n00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:29.240\nin the past and then said, hey, let's raise the bar.\n\n435\n00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:30.240\nAbsolutely.\n\n436\n00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.240\nListen, you've got first.\n\n437\n00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:32.720\nSo you got to be very respectful of the past.\n\n438\n00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:33.840\nWhether it's whether it's good or bad.\n\n439\n00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.360\nI mean, the past is the past.\n\n440\n00:18:35.360 --> 00:18:36.360\nPeople come in.\n\n441\n00:18:36.360 --> 00:18:37.360\nThey work very hard.\n\n442\n00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:39.320\nPeople want to work for positive leader.\n\n443\n00:18:39.320 --> 00:18:44.270\nThey want to work for someone that can point out the things that need to do\n\n444\n00:18:44.270 --> 00:18:44.880\nbetter, but\n\n445\n00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:46.560\nrecognize the good things.\n\n446\n00:18:46.560 --> 00:18:47.960\nAnd they're always good things.\n\n447\n00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.880\nEven if the sum total does not always work out the way you want.\n\n448\n00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.440\nAnd so it is really important that you're looking for the things that work that\n\n449\n00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:54.840\npeople\n\n450\n00:18:54.840 --> 00:18:59.640\nknow that you recognize that those things have worked, how hard it is.\n\n451\n00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:02.080\nBut tomorrow is another day.\n\n452\n00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:05.280\nAnd what made us successful yesterday isn't necessarily going to make us\n\n453\n00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:06.480\nsuccessful tomorrow.\n\n454\n00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.320\nAnd then Charlie, you had another huge CEO job.\n\n455\n00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:14.360\nAnd that's when you became the CEO of Bank of New York Mellon.\n\n456\n00:19:14.360 --> 00:19:18.610\nTell us a story of the biggest leadership lesson you learned there and how you\n\n457\n00:19:18.610 --> 00:19:19.320\n're applying\n\n458\n00:19:19.320 --> 00:19:20.320\nit at Wells Fargo.\n\n459\n00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:24.800\nWell, can I tell you a leadership story about leaving Visa first?\n\n460\n00:19:24.800 --> 00:19:25.800\nSure.\n\n461\n00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:31.720\nSo this is an interesting one because I love the job at Visa.\n\n462\n00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:33.320\nI love the people I work with.\n\n463\n00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:34.920\nI love the industry.\n\n464\n00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:39.760\nIt was something that I thought I was going to do for the rest of my career.\n\n465\n00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:47.850\nAnd I wound up leaving Visa without having another job because of something\n\n466\n00:19:47.850 --> 00:19:48.840\nthat one\n\n467\n00:19:48.840 --> 00:19:51.480\nof my daughters was going through.\n\n468\n00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:56.320\nAnd people say to me, oh, it must have been a really hard decision.\n\n469\n00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:58.520\nAnd I look back on it.\n\n470\n00:19:58.520 --> 00:20:02.580\nAnd I told people at the time, it's not a hard decision, actually, that\n\n471\n00:20:02.580 --> 00:20:03.440\neveryone in their\n\n472\n00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.440\nlife has to figure out what their priorities are.\n\n473\n00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.360\nThey have to figure out what's important to them.\n\n474\n00:20:09.360 --> 00:20:14.510\nAnd I've always said in my life that I love work, for me, it is one of the most\n\n475\n00:20:14.510 --> 00:20:15.360\nimportant\n\n476\n00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:19.510\nthings that I do and the most, the things that I get the most satisfaction with\n\n477\n00:20:19.510 --> 00:20:19.600\n.\n\n478\n00:20:19.600 --> 00:20:21.560\nBut my family's before that.\n\n479\n00:20:21.560 --> 00:20:25.280\nAnd so when a situation presented itself, it was clear that it was just too\n\n480\n00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:25.720\nhard for\n\n481\n00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:28.200\nme to be five hours away on the West Coast.\n\n482\n00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:33.660\nIt was very obvious to me that that was the right thing to do and that life in\n\n483\n00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:34.440\nyour career\n\n484\n00:20:34.440 --> 00:20:36.120\nisn't always a straight line.\n\n485\n00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:40.290\nNow I was lucky enough that I had been successful, I had a good reputation, I\n\n486\n00:20:40.290 --> 00:20:41.120\nwas financially\n\n487\n00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:42.280\nsecure.\n\n488\n00:20:42.280 --> 00:20:46.750\nBut you sit there and say, I have to follow what I think the right thing to do\n\n489\n00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:47.200\nis, and\n\n490\n00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:52.060\nI've got the confidence that I will be able to find something that works in the\n\n491\n00:20:52.060 --> 00:20:52.680\ncontext\n\n492\n00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.560\nof what works for me personally as well.\n\n493\n00:20:55.560 --> 00:20:59.880\nAnd that's what took me back to New York and then ultimately to be in my melon.\n\n494\n00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:04.730\nBut to give up that power of Visa which you had taken to New Heights, I mean,\n\n495\n00:21:04.730 --> 00:21:05.400\nyou were\n\n496\n00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.110\ngetting you'd form new partnerships, you'd done all kinds of things to break\n\n497\n00:21:09.110 --> 00:21:10.560\nthe ground.\n\n498\n00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:13.640\nGiving up that power that had to be hard.\n\n499\n00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:15.160\nYes and no.\n\n500\n00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.870\nI have worked really hard because I've seen people who have become very\n\n501\n00:21:18.870 --> 00:21:19.640\nsuccessful in\n\n502\n00:21:19.640 --> 00:21:23.120\nbusiness and I've seen people choose two different paths.\n\n503\n00:21:23.120 --> 00:21:26.080\nI've seen people who they are who they are.\n\n504\n00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:27.760\nIt doesn't change them.\n\n505\n00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:29.680\nThey treat people the same way.\n\n506\n00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.640\nThey don't let it get to their heads.\n\n507\n00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:36.930\nThey differentiate between what's the job versus what's them, what's the seat\n\n508\n00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:37.480\nversus\n\n509\n00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:38.680\nwhat's really you.\n\n510\n00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:43.170\nAnd then I've seen other people who just come to believe that they are the job\n\n511\n00:21:43.170 --> 00:21:43.840\nand it defines\n\n512\n00:21:43.840 --> 00:21:46.680\nthem in a way which really isn't realistic.\n\n513\n00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.660\nAnd I never liked that model and I saw it do things to people that weren't the\n\n514\n00:21:50.660 --> 00:21:51.440\nway I wanted\n\n515\n00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:52.920\nto live my life.\n\n516\n00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:58.270\nAnd so I have worked really hard to try and be very realistic about sitting in\n\n517\n00:21:58.270 --> 00:21:59.040\nthese big\n\n518\n00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:02.000\nchairs, it's an honor, it's a privilege.\n\n519\n00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.800\nHopefully I bring a lot to it so I help define it.\n\n520\n00:22:04.800 --> 00:22:09.160\nBut the day you leave that job, you're not going to be treated the same way.\n\n521\n00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.480\nYou're not going to be invited to the same functions you were invited before.\n\n522\n00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.280\nYou're not going to be invited to state dinners at the White House and these\n\n523\n00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:15.840\nthings that I've\n\n524\n00:22:15.840 --> 00:22:17.720\nbeen lucky enough to do.\n\n525\n00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:19.920\nBut I'm comfortable in who I am.\n\n526\n00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:25.030\nAnd so if I never had a big job after that visa roll, I'd look back on and say,\n\n527\n00:22:25.030 --> 00:22:25.520\ngee,\n\n528\n00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:26.520\nwasn't that great fun?\n\n529\n00:22:26.520 --> 00:22:27.520\nI enjoyed it.\n\n530\n00:22:27.520 --> 00:22:28.520\nYes.\n\n531\n00:22:28.520 --> 00:22:32.360\nAnd that was one of the things that I did in my life and that didn't define me.\n\n532\n00:22:32.360 --> 00:22:34.600\nLike you say, life is not a straight line.\n\n533\n00:22:34.600 --> 00:22:38.600\nAnd then you did get the job to go to Bank of New York, Mellon.\n\n534\n00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:42.890\nWas there anything significant there that you picked up that has helped you\n\n535\n00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:43.560\nnavigate\n\n536\n00:22:43.560 --> 00:22:45.760\nthe challenges at Wells Fargo?\n\n537\n00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:46.760\nSure.\n\n538\n00:22:46.760 --> 00:22:50.890\nListen, I think when I went to BNY Mellon, I would say it's very, very\n\n539\n00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:52.280\ndifferent culturally\n\n540\n00:22:52.280 --> 00:22:53.880\nthan visa.\n\n541\n00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:58.240\nVery, very different than whether the old city or JP Morgan, the companies, I\n\n542\n00:22:58.240 --> 00:22:58.480\nwould say\n\n543\n00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:00.240\nable to work out before.\n\n544\n00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.040\nSo this was a company that was founded by Alexander Hamilton.\n\n545\n00:23:04.040 --> 00:23:05.040\nGreat heritage.\n\n546\n00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:09.980\nAgain, very, very proud group of people working for the institution providing\n\n547\n00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:11.360\nsuper important\n\n548\n00:23:11.360 --> 00:23:15.120\nservices to other financial institutions around the world.\n\n549\n00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:19.030\nBut that company too has to sit there and figure out what it's going to be in\n\n550\n00:23:19.030 --> 00:23:20.240\nthe future.\n\n551\n00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:24.540\nFiguring out how you motivate a group of people that the company was doing okay\n\n552\n00:23:24.540 --> 00:23:25.720\n, not great,\n\n553\n00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.600\nbut it had this amazing past that people were really proud of.\n\n554\n00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:34.400\nThat's different to navigate than visa, which was doing really, really well.\n\n555\n00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.480\nThat's very different to navigate than when I was at JP Morgan, we brought the\n\n556\n00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:38.080\nWashington\n\n557\n00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:41.800\nMutual branches and we had to get people on board quickly.\n\n558\n00:23:41.800 --> 00:23:43.400\nBut that was a company that had failed.\n\n559\n00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:47.160\nSo it's very easy to say, listen, we want you to take a different path.\n\n560\n00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:49.800\nWe can prove to you that it's going to be successful.\n\n561\n00:23:49.800 --> 00:23:51.120\nWe had a roadmap for it.\n\n562\n00:23:51.120 --> 00:23:53.080\nThis was something that was very, very different.\n\n563\n00:23:53.080 --> 00:23:58.620\nAnd so getting into the hearts and minds of people, of making them come to\n\n564\n00:23:58.620 --> 00:23:59.640\nunderstand\n\n565\n00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.520\nthat we're a little shot of realism.\n\n566\n00:24:02.520 --> 00:24:05.200\nWe're not doing as well as we all think we are, we're living in the past a\n\n567\n00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:06.840\nlittle bit.\n\n568\n00:24:06.840 --> 00:24:09.430\nAnd we need to think about how we're going to do things differently while you\n\n569\n00:24:09.430 --> 00:24:09.960\n're bringing\n\n570\n00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:10.960\npeople along.\n\n571\n00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:15.180\nIt's another application of what I had to do with visa, but a very different\n\n572\n00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:15.640\none.\n\n573\n00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:21.280\nJim Kramer of Mad Money has said that you buy the stock wherever Charlie goes.\n\n574\n00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:22.680\nGreat compliment.\n\n575\n00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:27.560\nHow do you handle such high expectations that you know others have of you?\n\n576\n00:24:27.560 --> 00:24:34.160\nI think one of the hardest things in these big jobs is the pressure.\n\n577\n00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.960\nAnd I think you've got to figure out how to take that pressure and to channel\n\n578\n00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:38.960\nit positively.\n\n579\n00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.860\nBecause I've seen people who don't handle pressure well and it actually hurts\n\n580\n00:24:42.860 --> 00:24:43.600\nperformance\n\n581\n00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:46.960\nas opposed to just not being helpful.\n\n582\n00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:51.560\nWhether you've got someone like Jim who talks publicly and creates very high\n\n583\n00:24:51.560 --> 00:24:52.520\nexpectations\n\n584\n00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:57.260\nfor in this case Wells Fargo, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and say\n\n585\n00:24:57.260 --> 00:24:57.760\n, you know\n\n586\n00:24:57.760 --> 00:25:00.880\nsomething, I actually have that responsibility.\n\n587\n00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.380\nWhile these big jobs, you can fly around the world and do all these really\n\n588\n00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:05.800\nimportant things,\n\n589\n00:25:05.800 --> 00:25:10.360\nwhat you're really responsible for is delivering for a group of stakeholders.\n\n590\n00:25:10.360 --> 00:25:12.840\nWhether it's your shareholders, whether it's your employees, whether it's\n\n591\n00:25:12.840 --> 00:25:14.040\nsupporting communities.\n\n592\n00:25:14.040 --> 00:25:18.600\nAnd so for me, it's all about I always ask myself the question.\n\n593\n00:25:18.600 --> 00:25:21.430\nSometimes it's at night when I go home, sometimes it's the morning when I'm\n\n594\n00:25:21.430 --> 00:25:22.160\nhaving my cup of\n\n595\n00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.510\ncoffee, sometimes it's on the weekends when you're unwinding a little bit is,\n\n596\n00:25:25.510 --> 00:25:25.960\nam I doing\n\n597\n00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:26.960\nenough?\n\n598\n00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:27.960\nAm I missing something?\n\n599\n00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:30.560\nAm I making the tough decisions?\n\n600\n00:25:30.560 --> 00:25:35.590\nAm I being as helpful to the people inside the company that I can be as helpful\n\n601\n00:25:35.590 --> 00:25:36.080\nto?\n\n602\n00:25:36.080 --> 00:25:41.050\nWhat do I need to do differently so that I can actually, as part of this team\n\n603\n00:25:41.050 --> 00:25:42.600\nhere, deliver\n\n604\n00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:44.920\nin the way that people expect?\n\n605\n00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:49.030\nAnd I've been lucky enough that the platforms that I've been a part of, I think\n\n606\n00:25:49.030 --> 00:25:49.440\nall have\n\n607\n00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:54.520\nthe capability to be more successful five, 10, 15 years out than when I arrived\n\n608\n00:25:54.520 --> 00:25:55.040\nat that\n\n609\n00:25:55.040 --> 00:25:56.040\ncompany.\n\n610\n00:25:56.040 --> 00:25:57.920\nSo I think the opportunity is there.\n\n611\n00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.870\nAnd so then it comes down to am I doing all the things that I could be doing\n\n612\n00:26:00.870 --> 00:26:02.400\nwith my team\n\n613\n00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.800\nto take advantage of those things.\n\n614\n00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:09.090\nNow I want to take you back to five years ago when you were a Poincia of Wells\n\n615\n00:26:09.090 --> 00:26:09.720\nFargo,\n\n616\n00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:15.040\nthe financial times described it as the worst job in banking.\n\n617\n00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:17.240\nWhat made it so from their perspective?\n\n618\n00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.160\nYeah, it was not even close to the worst job.\n\n619\n00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:21.480\nIncredibly hard.\n\n620\n00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.720\nI think that's what they probably meant to say is when I arrived at Wells Fargo\n\n621\n00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:26.280\n, great\n\n622\n00:26:26.280 --> 00:26:31.600\nhistory, great franchise had been the most respected financial institution in\n\n623\n00:26:31.600 --> 00:26:32.440\nthe world.\n\n624\n00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:34.720\nAnd we made some terrible mistakes.\n\n625\n00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:36.440\nWe made some mistakes with customers.\n\n626\n00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.590\nWe didn't build the right infrastructure inside the company so we didn't catch\n\n627\n00:26:39.590 --> 00:26:39.920\nit.\n\n628\n00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.280\nOur regulators pointed it out.\n\n629\n00:26:42.280 --> 00:26:44.080\nWe didn't fix the problems.\n\n630\n00:26:44.080 --> 00:26:47.570\nWe didn't necessarily fess up to the mistakes that we had made, which the\n\n631\n00:26:47.570 --> 00:26:48.400\npublic didn't\n\n632\n00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.560\nlike.\n\n633\n00:26:49.560 --> 00:26:52.040\nAnd so that's a tough situation to come into.\n\n634\n00:26:52.040 --> 00:26:56.520\nSo when you make your list of you're going to show up the next day at a company\n\n635\n00:26:56.520 --> 00:26:56.760\n, it was\n\n636\n00:26:56.760 --> 00:26:58.480\na difficult situation.\n\n637\n00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:01.360\nBut the people at the company were amazing.\n\n638\n00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:06.080\nThey all wanted to do whatever was necessary to bring back the respect that\n\n639\n00:27:06.080 --> 00:27:07.000\nthis company\n\n640\n00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:08.160\nhas had.\n\n641\n00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:14.050\nWe do an amazing job serving individuals and corporate customers of all sizes\n\n642\n00:27:14.050 --> 00:27:14.560\nacross this\n\n643\n00:27:14.560 --> 00:27:17.880\ncountry and have done it since 1852.\n\n644\n00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:22.360\nSo you look at it and say, you know, I've got a two pronged effort here.\n\n645\n00:27:22.360 --> 00:27:27.000\nNumber one is to just fix the very basics, which were very obvious to me, but\n\n646\n00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:27.440\nwe had\n\n647\n00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.360\nnot done a great job at.\n\n648\n00:27:29.360 --> 00:27:33.940\nAnd then the opportunity is to rebuild what is completely within our\n\n649\n00:27:33.940 --> 00:27:35.560\ncapabilities, which\n\n650\n00:27:35.560 --> 00:27:38.680\nis taking advantage of this amazing franchise that we have.\n\n651\n00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:40.880\nSo again, I actually think it was a great job.\n\n652\n00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.920\nOtherwise I wouldn't have wanted to have come and do it, but there's no doubt.\n\n653\n00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:44.920\nIt was hard.\n\n654\n00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:45.920\nListen, you have problems.\n\n655\n00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:46.920\nYou're in the spotlight.\n\n656\n00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:47.920\nYou've got the government.\n\n657\n00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:48.920\nYou've got the regulators.\n\n658\n00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:49.920\nYou've got the public on you.\n\n659\n00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.090\nI mean, those things are not necessarily fun every single day, but there's a\n\n660\n00:27:53.090 --> 00:27:54.400\nclear path\n\n661\n00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:56.280\nto winding up in a very different place.\n\n662\n00:27:56.280 --> 00:28:06.060\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Charlie Sharpe in just a\n\n663\n00:28:06.060 --> 00:28:06.960\nmoment.\n\n664\n00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.940\nAs you've heard us talk about, Charlie got his big break early in his career\n\n665\n00:28:10.940 --> 00:28:11.480\nworking\n\n666\n00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:17.120\nalongside Jamie Diamond, who's now the chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase.\n\n667\n00:28:17.120 --> 00:28:21.720\nIn our episode on How Leaders Lead, Jamie talks about how you always need a\n\n668\n00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:22.480\nplan to deal\n\n669\n00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:23.480\nwith problems.\n\n670\n00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.910\nYou and I know the big companies are always slowing down and always getting\n\n671\n00:28:26.910 --> 00:28:29.240\nmore bureaucratic.\n\n672\n00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.970\nI have a lot of great leaders now, so I don't have to do it for them, but I\n\n673\n00:28:31.970 --> 00:28:32.720\nstill do it.\n\n674\n00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:35.120\nI return every phone call, every email.\n\n675\n00:28:35.120 --> 00:28:37.240\nIf I see something that's really dumb, I make sure it gets fixed.\n\n676\n00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:39.320\nI tell them, \"Do it today.\"\n\n677\n00:28:39.320 --> 00:28:40.320\nDon't start this thing.\n\n678\n00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:42.920\nWe'll get to it when it's on my list.\n\n679\n00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.560\nEvery now and then I still just go do it today, and people smile.\n\n680\n00:28:45.560 --> 00:28:47.160\nThey say, \"He's still Jamie.\"\n\n681\n00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:48.720\nHe's told, \"Do it today.\"\n\n682\n00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.070\nBut as you know, when you do all the very good leaders, you've got to let them\n\n683\n00:28:51.070 --> 00:28:52.120\ndo it too.\n\n684\n00:28:52.120 --> 00:28:57.770\nGo back and listen to my entire conversation with Jamie, episode 14, here on\n\n685\n00:28:57.770 --> 00:28:58.480\nHow Leaders\n\n686\n00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:02.560\nLead.\n\n687\n00:29:02.560 --> 00:29:07.600\nYou go to Visa.\n\n688\n00:29:07.600 --> 00:29:08.840\nIt's a rocket ship.\n\n689\n00:29:08.840 --> 00:29:10.080\nYou've got a successful company.\n\n690\n00:29:10.080 --> 00:29:11.840\nNow you've got to take it to the next level.\n\n691\n00:29:11.840 --> 00:29:17.760\nYou go to Wells Fargo, where you inherit, I would say, a bit of a mess.\n\n692\n00:29:17.760 --> 00:29:19.240\nWhich would you rather do?\n\n693\n00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.440\nWould you rather go into a place that's ticking, or would you rather go into a\n\n694\n00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:23.040\nplace that you\n\n695\n00:29:23.040 --> 00:29:24.760\nknow you've got to turn around?\n\n696\n00:29:24.760 --> 00:29:28.840\nHonestly, I don't have an answer to them, because everyone always thinks that\n\n697\n00:29:28.840 --> 00:29:29.640\nwhen you're in\n\n698\n00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.080\nyour situation, there's always another situation which feels different.\n\n699\n00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:34.160\nIt feels easier.\n\n700\n00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:38.230\nI think back to when I was at Visa, and people used to say, \"Oh, high growth\n\n701\n00:29:38.230 --> 00:29:39.000\ncompany, high\n\n702\n00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.000\nPE stock.\"\n\n703\n00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:43.030\nWell, you have a different set of issues, which is you are growing really\n\n704\n00:29:43.030 --> 00:29:43.600\nquickly.\n\n705\n00:29:43.600 --> 00:29:46.640\nThere's an expectation that you can continue to do that.\n\n706\n00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:48.880\nYou have your own dynamics that are there.\n\n707\n00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:50.480\nThat job isn't easy.\n\n708\n00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.920\nThe people that have continued to run that company and build it, they feel the\n\n709\n00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:54.400\nsame kind\n\n710\n00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.280\nof pressure in a lot of respects than I feel to deliver.\n\n711\n00:29:57.280 --> 00:30:00.840\nWhat you have to deal with day in and day out is very, very different.\n\n712\n00:30:00.840 --> 00:30:05.930\nWhat I get pleasure about is moving something forward, is taking something that\n\n713\n00:30:05.930 --> 00:30:06.480\nexists a\n\n714\n00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:08.320\ncertain way.\n\n715\n00:30:08.320 --> 00:30:11.480\nWhen I leave it, I want to believe that it's better than when I got there.\n\n716\n00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:16.250\nIt's better not just on its merits, but people that are inside feel that it's\n\n717\n00:30:16.250 --> 00:30:17.040\nbetter.\n\n718\n00:30:17.040 --> 00:30:19.320\nPeople outside feel that it's better.\n\n719\n00:30:19.320 --> 00:30:24.400\nI create a platform for the people who come after me to even do more with it.\n\n720\n00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.230\nTaking something at Wells where we had all these problems, but it was a great\n\n721\n00:30:27.230 --> 00:30:28.160\nfranchise,\n\n722\n00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:32.610\nyes, fixing the problems, but also continuing to build on the great place, that\n\n723\n00:30:32.610 --> 00:30:33.480\nis incredibly\n\n724\n00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:34.480\ngratifying.\n\n725\n00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:38.720\nSpeaking of problems, you had, I believe, up to 13 consent orders.\n\n726\n00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:40.880\nTell us what that means in the world of banking.\n\n727\n00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.720\nThese are the regulatory issues that you have.\n\n728\n00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:46.720\nWhat does it mean for the novice out there?\n\n729\n00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:48.520\nListen, the regulators are here every day.\n\n730\n00:30:48.520 --> 00:30:51.420\nThey look at what we do, and their job is to make sure that we're running the\n\n731\n00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:51.960\nplace in\n\n732\n00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:54.200\na safe and sound manner.\n\n733\n00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.160\nIf they think you can do something better, they give you a finding.\n\n734\n00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:01.080\nThey call it an MRA, a matter requiring attention.\n\n735\n00:31:01.080 --> 00:31:05.370\nIf you're not doing enough to get it done or it's significant enough, they can\n\n736\n00:31:05.370 --> 00:31:06.120\ngive you\n\n737\n00:31:06.120 --> 00:31:07.920\na consent order at that point.\n\n738\n00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:14.250\nA consent order is basically cease and desist doing something which is bad and\n\n739\n00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:15.720\ndo the following\n\n740\n00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:19.680\nthings to fix what we think you need to get fixed.\n\n741\n00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:24.220\nThere's not a clearer message than that that says you can't continue to do\n\n742\n00:31:24.220 --> 00:31:25.340\nthings the same\n\n743\n00:31:25.340 --> 00:31:26.340\nway.\n\n744\n00:31:26.340 --> 00:31:28.120\nYou have to address those issues.\n\n745\n00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:32.360\nIf not, you can wind up with additional restrictions, which ultimately could\n\n746\n00:31:32.360 --> 00:31:33.680\nalso lead towards you\n\n747\n00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.950\nnot being able to grow or being forced to shrink or eventually not being an\n\n748\n00:31:37.950 --> 00:31:38.760\nindependent\n\n749\n00:31:38.760 --> 00:31:39.760\ncompany more.\n\n750\n00:31:39.760 --> 00:31:41.960\nYou have 13 of these.\n\n751\n00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:42.960\nThat's a lot of them.\n\n752\n00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.440\nI know you've been whittling them down.\n\n753\n00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.720\nAs a leader, what have you learned about solving tough problems like that?\n\n754\n00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:50.720\nWhat's it take?\n\n755\n00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:55.800\nI think first of all, I do think you never look past the obvious.\n\n756\n00:31:55.800 --> 00:31:59.150\nWe can sit here today and we can say, \"Oh my God, you have all these consent\n\n757\n00:31:59.150 --> 00:31:59.800\norders.\"\n\n758\n00:31:59.800 --> 00:32:03.640\nIf you have one consent order that can actually ultimately do those really,\n\n759\n00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:04.600\nreally bad things\n\n760\n00:32:04.600 --> 00:32:07.590\nto you beyond just the consent order, you would marshal all your resources\n\n761\n00:32:07.590 --> 00:32:08.480\ntowards fixing\n\n762\n00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:09.480\nit.\n\n763\n00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.690\nIf you build a company and you've got 10, 11, 12, 13 of these, you would think\n\n764\n00:32:13.690 --> 00:32:14.000\nthat the\n\n765\n00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:18.040\nwhole company would understand that and would be geared towards fixing it.\n\n766\n00:32:18.040 --> 00:32:19.480\nThat's not what I found.\n\n767\n00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:24.460\nWhen you come to realize is, again, don't assume that what is obvious to you is\n\n768\n00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:25.080\nobvious\n\n769\n00:32:25.080 --> 00:32:30.900\nto everyone else, that you need to make sure everyone understands what that\n\n770\n00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:31.640\nrealism really\n\n771\n00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:35.560\nis and then what it takes to actually do the work.\n\n772\n00:32:35.560 --> 00:32:39.200\nWhether it's one consent order, five consent orders, ten consent orders, it's\n\n773\n00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:39.760\nwork, just\n\n774\n00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:42.360\nlike growing a business or opening new branches of business.\n\n775\n00:32:42.360 --> 00:32:45.680\nYou got to put your effort around, \"Okay, what does it take to do?\n\n776\n00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:46.920\nDo we have the right people in place?\n\n777\n00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:48.520\nDo we have the right processes in place?\n\n778\n00:32:48.520 --> 00:32:50.520\nDo we have the right reporting in place?\n\n779\n00:32:50.520 --> 00:32:54.520\nHave we created the right sense of urgency around it so that people understand\n\n780\n00:32:54.520 --> 00:32:55.000\nthat there\n\n781\n00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.480\nis nothing more important than this?\n\n782\n00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:02.550\nEverything else, all the ability to grow, to introduce new products, if we don\n\n783\n00:33:02.550 --> 00:33:03.000\n't run\n\n784\n00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:07.000\nour business in a way that our regulators feel that we're safe and sound, then\n\n785\n00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:07.400\nwe can't\n\n786\n00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:09.360\ndo those other things.\n\n787\n00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:12.340\nIt's not just telling people to do things, it's making people understand how\n\n788\n00:33:12.340 --> 00:33:12.720\nthis all\n\n789\n00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:17.750\nfits together, why we have to do it, and here's the recipe that it's going to\n\n790\n00:33:17.750 --> 00:33:18.160\ntake to get\n\n791\n00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:19.160\nit done.\n\n792\n00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:22.950\nCharlie, you mentioned sense of urgency and that's something that you've always\n\n793\n00:33:22.950 --> 00:33:23.400\nhad.\n\n794\n00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:26.640\nHow do you build a sense of urgency into the culture?\n\n795\n00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.440\nI would say several ways.\n\n796\n00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:32.420\nOne is just clarity of the message, whether you're managing a group of five\n\n797\n00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:33.040\npeople in\n\n798\n00:33:33.040 --> 00:33:38.210\na department, a branch or a store with 10, 15, 20 people in it, or a large\n\n799\n00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:39.240\norganization,\n\n800\n00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:43.460\nyou need to communicate over and over and over again whatever the message is\n\n801\n00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:44.000\nyou want\n\n802\n00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:45.360\npeople to hear.\n\n803\n00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:49.980\nSaying something once in a note, saying something once in a town hall, people\n\n804\n00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:50.880\nwill hear it,\n\n805\n00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.320\nbut that's not galvanizing.\n\n806\n00:33:52.320 --> 00:33:54.360\nPeople don't necessarily know what to do with that.\n\n807\n00:33:54.360 --> 00:33:58.160\nAnd so figure out what that message is, so in this case it is, this is our\n\n808\n00:33:58.160 --> 00:33:58.840\nnumber one\n\n809\n00:33:58.840 --> 00:33:59.840\npriority.\n\n810\n00:33:59.840 --> 00:34:03.690\nNothing is more important, here's why, and here's what we're going to do about\n\n811\n00:34:03.690 --> 00:34:04.240\nit, is\n\n812\n00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:10.400\ndo it in a note, do it in town halls, do it one on one with individuals, do it\n\n813\n00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:10.960\nin group\n\n814\n00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.680\nmeetings, make sure the management team is doing it consistently.\n\n815\n00:34:14.680 --> 00:34:19.300\nAnd what they most importantly need to see after that is that we're doing it\n\n816\n00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:20.280\nourselves.\n\n817\n00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.120\nSo do what I do, not just what I say.\n\n818\n00:34:23.120 --> 00:34:26.270\nAnd so we become the role models for listen, we're treating with a sense of\n\n819\n00:34:26.270 --> 00:34:26.880\nurgency.\n\n820\n00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:28.520\nHere's what we mean by that.\n\n821\n00:34:28.520 --> 00:34:32.300\nSo in our case, it was that the operating committee reviews these things\n\n822\n00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:33.080\nmultiple times\n\n823\n00:34:33.080 --> 00:34:34.080\na week.\n\n824\n00:34:34.080 --> 00:34:37.880\nWe sit in a room, we go through all the detail over and over and over again.\n\n825\n00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:40.660\nWe make sure that we're close enough to make sure we're providing the support,\n\n826\n00:34:40.660 --> 00:34:41.120\nwe're make\n\n827\n00:34:41.120 --> 00:34:45.080\nsure that we're finding the right resources that people are directed properly.\n\n828\n00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:50.560\nAnd if they see us do that, then they see that as a role model.\n\n829\n00:34:50.560 --> 00:34:54.600\nBut even more importantly, for the people who sit around my table, for them to\n\n830\n00:34:54.600 --> 00:34:55.480\nbe successful,\n\n831\n00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:59.110\nthe only way they're going to be successful is if they do that with their group\n\n832\n00:34:59.110 --> 00:34:59.160\n.\n\n833\n00:34:59.160 --> 00:35:02.270\nAnd if their group then does it with their group and so on and so forth, you\n\n834\n00:35:02.270 --> 00:35:02.840\ncreate this\n\n835\n00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:08.920\nmachine that fits together in terms of how we execute, but they understand how\n\n836\n00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:09.400\nit fits\n\n837\n00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.470\ninto a broader picture, which is that communication piece, which is so\n\n838\n00:35:12.470 --> 00:35:13.160\nnecessary.\n\n839\n00:35:13.160 --> 00:35:17.690\nYou know, in the world of finance, you've got a lot of very smart, very\n\n840\n00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:19.320\ntalented, analytical\n\n841\n00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:20.320\npeople.\n\n842\n00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:24.360\nWhat are the soft skills that you're trying to build into the company?\n\n843\n00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:29.560\nWe are defined by what we do, not just what we say.\n\n844\n00:35:29.560 --> 00:35:32.650\nAnd what I found at large companies, and I think Wells Fargo fell into the\n\n845\n00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:33.240\nstrap a little\n\n846\n00:35:33.240 --> 00:35:37.950\nbit too much is we spent a lot of time putting on a piece of paper what our\n\n847\n00:35:37.950 --> 00:35:39.000\nvision was, what\n\n848\n00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.520\nour values were, which is not unimportant.\n\n849\n00:35:42.520 --> 00:35:47.440\nBut then do we ask ourselves, are we living it every single day?\n\n850\n00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.870\nAre we really making decisions based upon the framework that we said, this is\n\n851\n00:35:50.870 --> 00:35:51.480\nwhat we want\n\n852\n00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:52.480\nto be?\n\n853\n00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:55.670\nI use the example of people always talk about, you know, put the customer first\n\n854\n00:35:55.670 --> 00:35:55.960\n.\n\n855\n00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:58.940\nI mean, I don't know a company that stands up and says they're not going to put\n\n856\n00:35:58.940 --> 00:35:59.520\nthe customer\n\n857\n00:35:59.520 --> 00:36:00.520\nfirst.\n\n858\n00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:03.530\nBut then when you go ask the question, are we making decisions every day based\n\n859\n00:36:03.530 --> 00:36:04.600\nupon that?\n\n860\n00:36:04.600 --> 00:36:08.340\nOr are we making decisions that we think are better for an employee here in\n\n861\n00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:08.840\nterms of\n\n862\n00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:10.640\nwhether it's going to drive their compensation?\n\n863\n00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:14.760\nWe're making a decision because we think it's going to make us more money.\n\n864\n00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.750\nAnd so if you really believe that if you've got a set of fair products and\n\n865\n00:36:17.750 --> 00:36:18.480\nservices that\n\n866\n00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.980\nare priced fairly out there, that if you're doing the right thing for the\n\n867\n00:36:21.980 --> 00:36:22.880\ncustomer, then\n\n868\n00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.120\nyou'll eventually be rewarded.\n\n869\n00:36:25.120 --> 00:36:28.960\nAnd so using that lens, but not just having it on a piece of paper, asking the\n\n870\n00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:29.680\nquestion,\n\n871\n00:36:29.680 --> 00:36:35.150\nare we actually making decisions based upon those expectations that we've set\n\n872\n00:36:35.150 --> 00:36:36.480\nfor ourselves?\n\n873\n00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:37.960\nThat's what's going to define us.\n\n874\n00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:42.110\nAnd ultimately our culture is going to be defined by the way people view us,\n\n875\n00:36:42.110 --> 00:36:42.640\nwhether\n\n876\n00:36:42.640 --> 00:36:45.510\nit's our customers, whether it's people who work there, whether it's people in\n\n877\n00:36:45.510 --> 00:36:46.960\nour communities,\n\n878\n00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.600\nthat's going to define what the company is, not what's on our sheet of paper.\n\n879\n00:36:50.600 --> 00:36:55.080\nYou want those two things to agree, but you have to live it every single day.\n\n880\n00:36:55.080 --> 00:36:59.880\nYou know, no question you and your team have been rebuilding Wells Fargo, which\n\n881\n00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:00.400\nis one of\n\n882\n00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.160\nthe world's great financial franchises, period.\n\n883\n00:37:03.160 --> 00:37:08.320\nAnd you're building that brick by brick back to where it needs to be.\n\n884\n00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.160\nWhat are you most proud of that you've accomplished so far?\n\n885\n00:37:11.160 --> 00:37:17.250\nWhat I think about where we are today, I think that we are a more respected\n\n886\n00:37:17.250 --> 00:37:18.200\ncompany today\n\n887\n00:37:18.200 --> 00:37:21.800\nthan we were four and a half years ago when I got here.\n\n888\n00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:26.150\nAnd again, what I want to do is I want to leave this company a lot better when\n\n889\n00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:26.600\nI leave\n\n890\n00:37:26.600 --> 00:37:28.400\nit than when I got here.\n\n891\n00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:30.640\nAnd people are going to find that different ways.\n\n892\n00:37:30.640 --> 00:37:33.170\nYou know, our communities are going to say we're supportive, the communities we\n\n893\n00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:33.640\n're helping\n\n894\n00:37:33.640 --> 00:37:34.640\nthem grow.\n\n895\n00:37:34.640 --> 00:37:38.210\nOur customers are going to say it's because we're doing the right thing by them\n\n896\n00:37:38.210 --> 00:37:38.240\n.\n\n897\n00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:42.540\nAnd people who work here are going to say, I'm treated as well as I could be\n\n898\n00:37:42.540 --> 00:37:43.040\ntreated\n\n899\n00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:46.940\nat any company and they're providing opportunities for me and they care about\n\n900\n00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:47.280\nme.\n\n901\n00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:51.320\nAll those things come together to say like, are we a more respected company?\n\n902\n00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:52.560\nAnd I think we are.\n\n903\n00:37:52.560 --> 00:37:56.880\nAnd I want it to be more so tomorrow than it is today and a year from now.\n\n904\n00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.160\nYou come to Wells Fargo, the stocks 40, COVID hits, you go down in the 20s.\n\n905\n00:38:01.160 --> 00:38:05.200\nNow you're in around a $60 range.\n\n906\n00:38:05.200 --> 00:38:10.520\nHow do you deal with that period where the stocks just not move?\n\n907\n00:38:10.520 --> 00:38:11.880\nHow do you deal with that?\n\n908\n00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.000\nAnd then how do you deal with it when now it is moving?\n\n909\n00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.080\nWhat's the difference or is there a difference?\n\n910\n00:38:17.080 --> 00:38:18.080\nYeah.\n\n911\n00:38:18.080 --> 00:38:21.240\nSo we have our management every year we get top 200 people together.\n\n912\n00:38:21.240 --> 00:38:24.040\nYou came in very kind to speak to that group a couple of years ago.\n\n913\n00:38:24.040 --> 00:38:28.640\nAnd what I tell them is, you know, the stock on a daily basis doesn't matter.\n\n914\n00:38:28.640 --> 00:38:32.530\nYou know, because a lot of factors contribute to the stock going, it's going\n\n915\n00:38:32.530 --> 00:38:33.000\ndown.\n\n916\n00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:36.000\nBut over a period of time, it absolutely gets it right.\n\n917\n00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.080\nThe market does get it right.\n\n918\n00:38:38.080 --> 00:38:41.160\nAnd so, you know, if you're going from 40 to 20, it's for a reason.\n\n919\n00:38:41.160 --> 00:38:44.360\nAnd you need to make sure that you internalize that.\n\n920\n00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:46.160\nAnd the same thing on the way up.\n\n921\n00:38:46.160 --> 00:38:49.230\nAnd so, you know, when the stock was down in the 20s, it was during COVID, it\n\n922\n00:38:49.230 --> 00:38:49.880\nwas interest\n\n923\n00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:53.520\nrates, you know, we're all the time low, we're very interest rate sensitive.\n\n924\n00:38:53.520 --> 00:38:56.580\nBut again, you do need to look at it and to say that, you know, there are\n\n925\n00:38:56.580 --> 00:38:57.200\npeople that\n\n926\n00:38:57.200 --> 00:39:03.360\nrely on Wells Fargo to be a well-performing financial institution.\n\n927\n00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:04.560\nThere are people that own the stock.\n\n928\n00:39:04.560 --> 00:39:06.840\nThere are people that rely on the dividend.\n\n929\n00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.370\nAnd it comes back to are we doing everything we can to build the place in a way\n\n930\n00:39:10.370 --> 00:39:10.920\nwhich will\n\n931\n00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:12.800\nmake us more successful tomorrow?\n\n932\n00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:17.090\nAnd it comes back to taking that pressure that you should feel and channeling\n\n933\n00:39:17.090 --> 00:39:17.440\nit in\n\n934\n00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:18.720\na positive way.\n\n935\n00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:21.320\nAre we doing all the things that we should be doing?\n\n936\n00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:23.400\nAre we making the tough decisions?\n\n937\n00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.360\nAnd so, you know, you do need to be out in front inside the company.\n\n938\n00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:30.650\nYou know, I focus less outside the company because I think outside the company,\n\n939\n00:39:30.650 --> 00:39:31.000\nwe want\n\n940\n00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.470\nto tell a consistent story and people will, if you're doing the right things\n\n941\n00:39:34.470 --> 00:39:35.080\nand they'll\n\n942\n00:39:35.080 --> 00:39:36.080\nsee that.\n\n943\n00:39:36.080 --> 00:39:39.230\nBut inside the company, people want to know that you've got the confidence that\n\n944\n00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:39.600\nyou've\n\n945\n00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:41.240\ngot the plan, that that management team.\n\n946\n00:39:41.240 --> 00:39:44.450\nThis is the management team that's not going to be okay with the stock being in\n\n947\n00:39:44.450 --> 00:39:45.160\nthe 20s.\n\n948\n00:39:45.160 --> 00:39:48.640\nWe want to go back up to the 40s and then hire from there.\n\n949\n00:39:48.640 --> 00:39:51.200\nAnd so now you fast forward and, you know, we're in the 60s.\n\n950\n00:39:51.200 --> 00:39:55.550\nAnd so on the one hand, you know, it obviously feels much better than it did at\n\n951\n00:39:55.550 --> 00:39:56.840\n40 or 20.\n\n952\n00:39:56.840 --> 00:40:01.120\nIt's wonderful for people inside the company to see the values of their 401k,\n\n953\n00:40:01.120 --> 00:40:01.760\nyou know,\n\n954\n00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:04.720\nbe it all time highs and they tell you that.\n\n955\n00:40:04.720 --> 00:40:08.550\nBut that too creates another set of pressures because what you've proven to\n\n956\n00:40:08.550 --> 00:40:09.200\npeople is we\n\n957\n00:40:09.200 --> 00:40:10.440\ncan make progress.\n\n958\n00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.640\nWe have figured a lot out here, but it's not a project.\n\n959\n00:40:13.640 --> 00:40:14.840\nIt's not a one time effort.\n\n960\n00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.160\nIt's all about continuing to drive the place forward.\n\n961\n00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:21.960\nIf you make the right decisions, get our promise behind us, build, grow,\n\n962\n00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:22.800\nsupport our\n\n963\n00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:26.160\ncustomers across this country, it'll be reflected in the stock price.\n\n964\n00:40:26.160 --> 00:40:29.500\nAnd that ultimately, for a lot of people, will determine whether we've been\n\n965\n00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:30.120\nsuccessful\n\n966\n00:40:30.120 --> 00:40:31.120\nor not.\n\n967\n00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:32.760\nCarl, I've known you for a long time.\n\n968\n00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:37.060\nHow would you describe yourself today as a leader compared to what you were 10\n\n969\n00:40:37.060 --> 00:40:37.600\nto 15\n\n970\n00:40:37.600 --> 00:40:38.600\nyears ago?\n\n971\n00:40:38.600 --> 00:40:39.920\nI think I'm very, very different.\n\n972\n00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:43.450\nI think, you know, I'm sure whether it's age, maturity, going through the\n\n973\n00:40:43.450 --> 00:40:44.080\nthings I've\n\n974\n00:40:44.080 --> 00:40:50.560\ngone through, but I think I am for people that I work with really closely.\n\n975\n00:40:50.560 --> 00:40:58.120\nI think I'm far more open than I ever was, meaning I have come to really see\n\n976\n00:40:58.120 --> 00:40:59.200\nthe value\n\n977\n00:40:59.200 --> 00:41:01.120\nin a team.\n\n978\n00:41:01.120 --> 00:41:05.180\nAnd not that I didn't know that years ago, but I think at this point, and\n\n979\n00:41:05.180 --> 00:41:05.640\nespecially\n\n980\n00:41:05.640 --> 00:41:09.310\nrunning institution the size and scope of Wells Fargo, I can't do everything\n\n981\n00:41:09.310 --> 00:41:09.920\nmyself.\n\n982\n00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:11.400\nI can't be in all these meetings.\n\n983\n00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:14.650\nI can't make a lot of decisions that I was able to make one of my job was much,\n\n984\n00:41:14.650 --> 00:41:15.000\nmuch\n\n985\n00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:16.000\nsmaller.\n\n986\n00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:20.730\nAnd I'm very, very reliant on a group of people with their intelligence and\n\n987\n00:41:20.730 --> 00:41:21.920\ntheir experience,\n\n988\n00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:27.520\nbut also figuring out how to bring that group of people together to channel all\n\n989\n00:41:27.520 --> 00:41:28.640\nof our experience\n\n990\n00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:32.320\nand knowledge into something which is better than we can do individually.\n\n991\n00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:34.400\nAnd to me, that's got to be personal.\n\n992\n00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:38.870\nThat, you know, business is business, but I want people to believe that I care\n\n993\n00:41:38.870 --> 00:41:39.200\nabout\n\n994\n00:41:39.200 --> 00:41:41.200\nthem, that we care about each other.\n\n995\n00:41:41.200 --> 00:41:46.800\nI want them to know a little something about me, about what makes me tick,\n\n996\n00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:47.920\nabout what makes\n\n997\n00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:53.560\nmy weekend fun or not so fun so that we're really in this together in a way\n\n998\n00:41:53.560 --> 00:41:55.040\nthat is not,\n\n999\n00:41:55.040 --> 00:41:58.520\ndoesn't cross the line between business and personal, but it's not just\n\n1000\n00:41:58.520 --> 00:41:59.160\nbusiness.\n\n1001\n00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:03.780\nAnd I think if you can create that kind of environment, you create a bond\n\n1002\n00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.840\nbetween people\n\n1003\n00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:08.860\nwhich is very, very different than something which is just purely third party\n\n1004\n00:42:08.860 --> 00:42:09.880\nprofessional.\n\n1005\n00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:12.520\nYou know, Charlie, you talk about being vulnerable.\n\n1006\n00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:15.910\nAnd what I've always learned is when you talk about your failures, some of\n\n1007\n00:42:15.910 --> 00:42:16.600\npeople really\n\n1008\n00:42:16.600 --> 00:42:17.600\nlove that.\n\n1009\n00:42:17.600 --> 00:42:21.210\nI mean, do you have a failure story that you like to talk about that people\n\n1010\n00:42:21.210 --> 00:42:21.760\nactually love\n\n1011\n00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.360\nhearing at Wells Fargo?\n\n1012\n00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:24.360\nI do.\n\n1013\n00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:28.800\nAnd I've, Mike Mayo, who was our bank analyst here, actually repeats the story\n\n1014\n00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:29.760\nvery frequently\n\n1015\n00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:30.960\ninside Wells now.\n\n1016\n00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.840\nHe goes back to, this goes back to when I was at J. Morgan Chase.\n\n1017\n00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.820\nAnd it was the financial crisis and I was running a bunch of the consumer\n\n1018\n00:42:36.820 --> 00:42:37.720\nlending businesses\n\n1019\n00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:42.260\namongst other things and we made a bunch of mistakes in the home equity\n\n1020\n00:42:42.260 --> 00:42:43.240\nbusiness.\n\n1021\n00:42:43.240 --> 00:42:47.360\nAnd very often in business, people are afraid to admit their mistakes and they\n\n1022\n00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:48.000\n'll come up\n\n1023\n00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.920\nwith a whole bunch of reasons why it's not so bad or they'll blame it on\n\n1024\n00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:52.000\nsomeone else.\n\n1025\n00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:56.160\nAnd at one of our investor days, I stood up and I went through the problem.\n\n1026\n00:42:56.160 --> 00:43:00.480\nI said, listen, here are the mistakes that we made.\n\n1027\n00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.360\nHere's what the result is.\n\n1028\n00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:04.440\nAnd here's what we're going to do differently.\n\n1029\n00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:09.640\nAnd Mike tells the story because he said, oh my God, that's, he stood up there.\n\n1030\n00:43:09.640 --> 00:43:11.040\nHe talked about all the mistakes he made.\n\n1031\n00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:12.680\nHe's going to lose his job.\n\n1032\n00:43:12.680 --> 00:43:16.010\nAnd what he came to understand and what I thought was important is just the\n\n1033\n00:43:16.010 --> 00:43:16.640\nopposite.\n\n1034\n00:43:16.640 --> 00:43:19.760\nThese people actually have more respect for you because they sit there and say\n\n1035\n00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:20.120\nyou're\n\n1036\n00:43:20.120 --> 00:43:24.360\nwilling to recognize and learn from what you did wrong.\n\n1037\n00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:25.600\nYou're going to put it out there.\n\n1038\n00:43:25.600 --> 00:43:28.870\nNow you have to actually learn from it and do things differently in the future,\n\n1039\n00:43:28.870 --> 00:43:29.120\nbut not\n\n1040\n00:43:29.120 --> 00:43:30.520\nwalk away from the problems.\n\n1041\n00:43:30.520 --> 00:43:31.520\nAll right.\n\n1042\n00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:32.520\nThat's a great story.\n\n1043\n00:43:32.520 --> 00:43:34.160\nNow I want to flip the script.\n\n1044\n00:43:34.160 --> 00:43:38.560\nWhat have you learned from winning that you've applied in the Wells Fargo?\n\n1045\n00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:42.200\nListen, you know, ultimately, I'm not coming to work every day because I want\n\n1046\n00:43:42.200 --> 00:43:42.720\nto win.\n\n1047\n00:43:42.720 --> 00:43:46.100\nAnd so I can talk about wanting to do the right thing and I can talk about\n\n1048\n00:43:46.100 --> 00:43:46.400\nwanting to\n\n1049\n00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.600\nmake people feel good, but I am competitive.\n\n1050\n00:43:49.600 --> 00:43:50.880\nEverything that we do is competitive.\n\n1051\n00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.360\nThere's a judge out there.\n\n1052\n00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:57.720\nAnd so I'm not shy about wanting to tell people that we're not winning today\n\n1053\n00:43:57.720 --> 00:43:58.520\nand we should\n\n1054\n00:43:58.520 --> 00:43:59.520\nbe winning and I want to win.\n\n1055\n00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:02.750\nAnd we're going to do everything it takes within the way we want to run the\n\n1056\n00:44:02.750 --> 00:44:03.320\ncompany,\n\n1057\n00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:06.480\nwithin the principally run the company to get there.\n\n1058\n00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:08.400\nAnd I'm going to be the one leading the charge.\n\n1059\n00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:09.840\nI'm going to be the one working the hardest.\n\n1060\n00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.920\nI'm going to be the one making some of the tough decisions.\n\n1061\n00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:17.160\nBut if you just want to be okay, then this isn't the right place for you.\n\n1062\n00:44:17.160 --> 00:44:22.760\nYou know, at Wells, you've just been knocking off the problems one by one.\n\n1063\n00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:23.760\nBut I know you.\n\n1064\n00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.000\nYou don't think you've won the Super Bowl yet.\n\n1065\n00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.320\nHow do you celebrate the first downs?\n\n1066\n00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.050\nIt's incredibly important because listen, the fact is, I mean, we still have\n\n1067\n00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:32.720\nsome issues\n\n1068\n00:44:32.720 --> 00:44:34.800\nfrom the past that we haven't resolved.\n\n1069\n00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:36.900\nAnd when we look at the performance of the business, even though we're doing\n\n1070\n00:44:36.900 --> 00:44:37.320\nmuch better\n\n1071\n00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:41.170\nand the stock isn't all time high, we're not doing nearly as well as we could\n\n1072\n00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:41.600\ndo.\n\n1073\n00:44:41.600 --> 00:44:46.040\nBut I want people to understand that the things that we're doing are working.\n\n1074\n00:44:46.040 --> 00:44:49.000\nThat's what's driving those improvements along the way.\n\n1075\n00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:53.530\nSo it's really important to balance celebrating the success, but not declaring\n\n1076\n00:44:53.530 --> 00:44:55.000\nvictory prematurely.\n\n1077\n00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:56.480\nSo I'm always really, really clear.\n\n1078\n00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:58.560\nI feel really great about the progress that we've made.\n\n1079\n00:44:58.560 --> 00:45:02.560\nI'm incredibly proud of what everyone at Wells Fargo has accomplished.\n\n1080\n00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:05.400\nAnd by the way, they've worked incredibly hard to get there.\n\n1081\n00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.920\nAnd I want them to feel that and to be proud themselves.\n\n1082\n00:45:08.920 --> 00:45:12.440\nSo then when people talk to them that they can actually feel that way.\n\n1083\n00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:18.320\nBut at the same time, any celebration of success prematurely means that you're\n\n1084\n00:45:18.320 --> 00:45:19.320\nultimately\n\n1085\n00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.840\ncan not take full advantage of that opportunity or you're going to go backwards\n\n1086\n00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:23.000\n.\n\n1087\n00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:27.070\nAnd so, you know, encouragement along the way, making people understand that,\n\n1088\n00:45:27.070 --> 00:45:27.360\nhey, we've\n\n1089\n00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:28.360\ngot this.\n\n1090\n00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:31.600\nWe know how to get this done and you're the right team to do it.\n\n1091\n00:45:31.600 --> 00:45:32.600\nKeep going forward.\n\n1092\n00:45:32.600 --> 00:45:34.880\nAnd there's that balance, but both sides are important.\n\n1093\n00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:37.960\nYou know, Charlie, there's been so much fun and I want to have some more with\n\n1094\n00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:38.480\nmy lightning\n\n1095\n00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:39.800\nround of questions here.\n\n1096\n00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:40.800\nSo you ready for this?\n\n1097\n00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:41.800\nYes.\n\n1098\n00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:42.800\nAll right.\n\n1099\n00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:44.480\nWhat three words best describe you?\n\n1100\n00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:48.440\nHonest, hardworking, family men.\n\n1101\n00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:52.000\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?\n\n1102\n00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:56.200\nI think it'd be fun to be present in the United States for a day.\n\n1103\n00:45:56.200 --> 00:45:58.400\nWhat's your biggest pet peeve?\n\n1104\n00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:01.360\nIs not dealing with reality.\n\n1105\n00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:02.760\nWho would play you in a movie?\n\n1106\n00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:04.440\nOh, I don't know.\n\n1107\n00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:05.440\nI can't answer that one.\n\n1108\n00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:06.440\nI have no idea.\n\n1109\n00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:07.440\nGot to be Charlie Sheen.\n\n1110\n00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:08.440\nCome on.\n\n1111\n00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:09.440\nCharlie Sheen.\n\n1112\n00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:11.880\nThere's good and bad that comes to that.\n\n1113\n00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:14.360\nHe's a complicated guy.\n\n1114\n00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:18.280\nHow long did it take you to learn to play the guitar?\n\n1115\n00:46:18.280 --> 00:46:19.280\nNot long.\n\n1116\n00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:22.790\nI was very musical growing up, but having said that, I'm so far from where I\n\n1117\n00:46:22.790 --> 00:46:24.480\nwant to be.\n\n1118\n00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:26.680\nWhat's your favorite song to play in the guitar?\n\n1119\n00:46:26.680 --> 00:46:27.680\nLayla.\n\n1120\n00:46:27.680 --> 00:46:29.280\nCan you sing?\n\n1121\n00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.280\nNot well.\n\n1122\n00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:32.520\nYou've got an hour to yourself.\n\n1123\n00:46:32.520 --> 00:46:34.720\nAre you woodworking or playing the guitar?\n\n1124\n00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:36.040\nPlaying the guitar.\n\n1125\n00:46:36.040 --> 00:46:39.680\nIf I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear?\n\n1126\n00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:45.590\nYou'll hear Spotify, radio, which would be something like Rolling Stones, Dire\n\n1127\n00:46:45.590 --> 00:46:46.720\nStraits,\n\n1128\n00:46:46.720 --> 00:46:48.600\nsomething from the classic Rock era.\n\n1129\n00:46:48.600 --> 00:46:51.600\nWhat's something about you few people would know?\n\n1130\n00:46:51.600 --> 00:46:53.960\nI'm very sensitive.\n\n1131\n00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:57.920\nWhat's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss?\n\n1132\n00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.880\nMy morning time.\n\n1133\n00:46:59.880 --> 00:47:03.380\nEvery morning, it doesn't matter whether I have to leave really early to travel\n\n1134\n00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:03.640\n.\n\n1135\n00:47:03.640 --> 00:47:06.330\nIt doesn't matter whether I'm going to exercise or I've got to get into work a\n\n1136\n00:47:06.330 --> 00:47:07.640\ncertain time.\n\n1137\n00:47:07.640 --> 00:47:13.350\nI need an hour in the morning drinking my coffee, reading papers and just being\n\n1138\n00:47:13.350 --> 00:47:13.760\nwith\n\n1139\n00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.120\nmyself.\n\n1140\n00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:16.800\nGreat light, Dean, around Charlie.\n\n1141\n00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:18.080\nWe're about to wrap this up.\n\n1142\n00:47:18.080 --> 00:47:20.480\nJust a few more questions for you here.\n\n1143\n00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:22.480\nYou're on the board of Microsoft.\n\n1144\n00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:27.000\nWhat have you pulled from that experience that's made you a better leader?\n\n1145\n00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.840\nThat's a great question because it's been an amazing experience for me.\n\n1146\n00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:31.520\nI've privileged to be able to be there.\n\n1147\n00:47:31.520 --> 00:47:34.480\nI think what I've experienced two things.\n\n1148\n00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:40.570\nNumber one, I think with all great boards that you get the opportunity to see a\n\n1149\n00:47:40.570 --> 00:47:40.960\nbunch\n\n1150\n00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:46.270\nof people from different industries think about issues in ways that you don't\n\n1151\n00:47:46.270 --> 00:47:47.240\nnecessarily\n\n1152\n00:47:47.240 --> 00:47:48.720\nthink about them.\n\n1153\n00:47:48.720 --> 00:47:50.400\nWe've got people from the beverage industry.\n\n1154\n00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:53.040\nWe've got people from the technology industry.\n\n1155\n00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:55.880\nWe have people from the pharma world.\n\n1156\n00:47:55.880 --> 00:48:00.150\nJust to see how they approach an issue and it's a different way of thinking\n\n1157\n00:48:00.150 --> 00:48:00.840\nwhich gets\n\n1158\n00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.410\nyou thinking differently because we all grow up a certain way to see how other\n\n1159\n00:48:04.410 --> 00:48:05.160\npeople tackle\n\n1160\n00:48:05.160 --> 00:48:07.520\nan issue that have grown up differently.\n\n1161\n00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:12.140\nThe second is honestly it's just watching the intelligence of the folks at\n\n1162\n00:48:12.140 --> 00:48:13.120\nMicrosoft.\n\n1163\n00:48:13.120 --> 00:48:16.120\nFirst of all, they are incredibly smart.\n\n1164\n00:48:16.120 --> 00:48:18.520\nThey're always thinking about tomorrow.\n\n1165\n00:48:18.520 --> 00:48:21.870\nWith all the success they've had, whether it goes back to when Bill Gates\n\n1166\n00:48:21.870 --> 00:48:22.440\nfounded the\n\n1167\n00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:26.740\ncompany or the success that Satya has had since he became CEO, they don't talk\n\n1168\n00:48:26.740 --> 00:48:27.160\nabout\n\n1169\n00:48:27.160 --> 00:48:28.160\nthat.\n\n1170\n00:48:28.160 --> 00:48:31.510\nThey talk about what they should be nervous about, what the opportunities are\n\n1171\n00:48:31.510 --> 00:48:31.960\nand what\n\n1172\n00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:34.320\nthey're going to do for tomorrow.\n\n1173\n00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:40.040\nIt's that drive, it's that ambition and it's just that application of that raw\n\n1174\n00:48:40.040 --> 00:48:41.160\nintelligence\n\n1175\n00:48:41.160 --> 00:48:45.690\nto actually bringing it come together in a way which makes that company far\n\n1176\n00:48:45.690 --> 00:48:46.800\nmore successful\n\n1177\n00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:47.800\neach successive year.\n\n1178\n00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:52.360\nYou know, Satya Nadella, he basically wanted to transform the culture as I\n\n1179\n00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:53.200\nunderstand\n\n1180\n00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:57.760\nit from a we're a know it all culture to a learn it all culture.\n\n1181\n00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.240\nHow has he done that as you've watched it?\n\n1182\n00:49:00.240 --> 00:49:02.280\nFrom my perspective, it's him.\n\n1183\n00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:04.200\nPeople see that's who he is.\n\n1184\n00:49:04.200 --> 00:49:06.240\nAnd so you're absolutely right.\n\n1185\n00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:10.660\nBut he starts with, I think I know a lot, but there's a huge amount I don't\n\n1186\n00:49:10.660 --> 00:49:11.320\nknow.\n\n1187\n00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:14.560\nAnd so whether it's asking questions of the board, whether it's asking\n\n1188\n00:49:14.560 --> 00:49:15.280\nquestions in the\n\n1189\n00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.270\nmanagement team, asking the people on the management team questions that they\n\n1190\n00:49:19.270 --> 00:49:19.600\ndon't\n\n1191\n00:49:19.600 --> 00:49:24.960\nknow the answers to and to create a very safe environment to say, we don't know\n\n1192\n00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:26.160\neverything.\n\n1193\n00:49:26.160 --> 00:49:27.720\nWhat can we learn from others?\n\n1194\n00:49:27.720 --> 00:49:31.360\nAnd again, when you meet him, when you see him in action, you just you can't\n\n1195\n00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:32.000\nnot notice\n\n1196\n00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:33.000\nthat.\n\n1197\n00:49:33.000 --> 00:49:34.000\nAnd that becomes the standard.\n\n1198\n00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.120\nYou know, you and your wife, Amy, you have two daughters.\n\n1199\n00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:39.800\nHow do you lead at home, Charlie?\n\n1200\n00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:41.200\nI don't know if I lead at home.\n\n1201\n00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:45.760\nI feel at this, first of all, I do have my daughters who are 29 and 27.\n\n1202\n00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.080\nThey're fabulous and my wonderful wife.\n\n1203\n00:49:49.080 --> 00:49:52.110\nAnd I think back to what I described when I was a kid in terms of what that\n\n1204\n00:49:52.110 --> 00:49:53.160\nunit is like,\n\n1205\n00:49:53.160 --> 00:49:55.000\nwe're a unit.\n\n1206\n00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.120\nAnd everyone is important.\n\n1207\n00:49:57.120 --> 00:50:00.860\nOne of the things that my wife and I are very proud of is that they want to be\n\n1208\n00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:01.360\naround\n\n1209\n00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:02.440\nus.\n\n1210\n00:50:02.440 --> 00:50:04.920\nAnd not just because they get a free meal every once in a while.\n\n1211\n00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:06.800\nI think they like spending time with us.\n\n1212\n00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:08.080\nThey like having dinner.\n\n1213\n00:50:08.080 --> 00:50:10.080\nThey like us seeing their friends.\n\n1214\n00:50:10.080 --> 00:50:17.060\nAnd so for me, I think it's very much about respecting their space, but also\n\n1215\n00:50:17.060 --> 00:50:17.680\nmaking sure\n\n1216\n00:50:17.680 --> 00:50:22.970\nthat you strike that right balance between being a friend to them, but also\n\n1217\n00:50:22.970 --> 00:50:23.800\nproviding\n\n1218\n00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.230\nthe council where they need it and in a way that they actually want you part of\n\n1219\n00:50:27.230 --> 00:50:27.560\ntheir\n\n1220\n00:50:27.560 --> 00:50:28.560\nlives.\n\n1221\n00:50:28.560 --> 00:50:29.560\nAll right.\n\n1222\n00:50:29.560 --> 00:50:30.560\nLast question.\n\n1223\n00:50:30.560 --> 00:50:34.460\nWhat's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who wants to be a better\n\n1224\n00:50:34.460 --> 00:50:34.800\nleader?\n\n1225\n00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:45.410\nYour ability to lead is based upon your willingness to listen to the feedback\n\n1226\n00:50:45.410 --> 00:50:46.640\nthat people have\n\n1227\n00:50:46.640 --> 00:50:48.320\nfor you.\n\n1228\n00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:53.140\nThat you can think that you are doing the right thing, that you're providing\n\n1229\n00:50:53.140 --> 00:50:53.800\nthe right\n\n1230\n00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:58.190\nkind of council, you can pride in the right kind of direction, but people will\n\n1231\n00:50:58.190 --> 00:50:58.740\ntell you\n\n1232\n00:50:58.740 --> 00:51:00.760\nexactly what they think.\n\n1233\n00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.150\nIt's no different than if you want to get ahead in your career at any point in\n\n1234\n00:51:04.150 --> 00:51:04.400\ntime.\n\n1235\n00:51:04.400 --> 00:51:08.480\nThere's no better person to do that than yourself.\n\n1236\n00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.560\nThere's a huge amount of information out there.\n\n1237\n00:51:10.560 --> 00:51:12.720\nThere are people that are available to help you.\n\n1238\n00:51:12.720 --> 00:51:16.650\nAnd the same thing is true when you're a leader, which is ask the question,\n\n1239\n00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:17.200\nwhich is\n\n1240\n00:51:17.200 --> 00:51:19.640\nhow do people feel about working with you?\n\n1241\n00:51:19.640 --> 00:51:24.160\nWhat can you learn from what people have to say or what other experiences they\n\n1242\n00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:25.200\n've had?\n\n1243\n00:51:25.200 --> 00:51:28.020\nAnd then at the same time, I think you just have to recognize that sometimes\n\n1244\n00:51:28.020 --> 00:51:28.600\nleaders have\n\n1245\n00:51:28.600 --> 00:51:30.360\nto do unpopular things.\n\n1246\n00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:32.160\nAnd so it's not a popularity contest.\n\n1247\n00:51:32.160 --> 00:51:36.280\nIt's a fine line between when you're a leader, I said this before, people\n\n1248\n00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:37.240\nsometimes when\n\n1249\n00:51:37.240 --> 00:51:39.960\nthe outside think you're the leader, you can do anything you want.\n\n1250\n00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:42.480\nAnd that's true up to a point.\n\n1251\n00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:46.670\nAnd sometimes that can lead to either a very small revolt or a very large\n\n1252\n00:51:46.670 --> 00:51:47.400\nrevolt.\n\n1253\n00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:50.720\nSo you have to earn the right to be a leader.\n\n1254\n00:51:50.720 --> 00:51:53.480\nAnd so that means that people have to want to follow you.\n\n1255\n00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:57.490\nThey have to believe that you just don't have the intelligence or that you've\n\n1256\n00:51:57.490 --> 00:51:57.840\ngot the\n\n1257\n00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:02.450\nplan, but that you're the person who's going to treat everyone the way they\n\n1258\n00:52:02.450 --> 00:52:03.160\nwant to be\n\n1259\n00:52:03.160 --> 00:52:04.160\ntreated.\n\n1260\n00:52:04.160 --> 00:52:08.150\nAnd again, if you ask people how you are performing on these different\n\n1261\n00:52:08.150 --> 00:52:09.320\ndimensions, they'll tell\n\n1262\n00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:10.320\nyou.\n\n1263\n00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.120\nAnd for me, I'm always recalibrating that.\n\n1264\n00:52:13.120 --> 00:52:14.120\nAnd I'm lucky.\n\n1265\n00:52:14.120 --> 00:52:17.190\nI'm surrounded by a management team that tells me all the time, they'll tell me\n\n1266\n00:52:17.190 --> 00:52:17.680\nit's not\n\n1267\n00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:18.680\nevery hour.\n\n1268\n00:52:18.680 --> 00:52:19.680\nIt's not every day.\n\n1269\n00:52:19.680 --> 00:52:22.700\nBut if I'm doing a little bit too much, I'm being a little too tough on people,\n\n1270\n00:52:22.700 --> 00:52:22.960\nI'll\n\n1271\n00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:23.960\nget that.\n\n1272\n00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:28.810\nYou understand that we got a lot to get done, but you might be pushing too hard\n\n1273\n00:52:28.810 --> 00:52:29.320\nor it could\n\n1274\n00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:33.490\nbe the opposite extreme or it could be you're too difficult on this issue and\n\n1275\n00:52:33.490 --> 00:52:34.480\nnot recognizing\n\n1276\n00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:35.960\nthe progress.\n\n1277\n00:52:35.960 --> 00:52:40.930\nAnd the power of all that information, if you're not tapping into that, then\n\n1278\n00:52:40.930 --> 00:52:41.560\nyou're just\n\n1279\n00:52:41.560 --> 00:52:44.370\nmissing something and you're not going to be the kind of leader that the people\n\n1280\n00:52:44.370 --> 00:52:44.640\nwant\n\n1281\n00:52:44.640 --> 00:52:45.960\nto be surrounded by.\n\n1282\n00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:49.320\nYou know, Charlie, you are a great leader.\n\n1283\n00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:50.760\nYou've had enormous success.\n\n1284\n00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:54.880\nCongratulations on all the progress that you've made at Wells Fargo.\n\n1285\n00:52:54.880 --> 00:53:00.490\nBut if I had to sum you up from my perspective is that you've got that uncanny\n\n1286\n00:53:00.490 --> 00:53:01.480\ncombination\n\n1287\n00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:05.280\nof confidence that you had to have as a leader combined with humility.\n\n1288\n00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:07.480\nAnd that's what I see in the very best.\n\n1289\n00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.520\nAnd I thank you for sharing your insights with us today.\n\n1290\n00:53:10.520 --> 00:53:11.520\nI appreciate that.\n\n1291\n00:53:11.520 --> 00:53:12.520\nIt's very kind, David.\n\n1292\n00:53:12.520 --> 00:53:12.520\nThank you.\n\n1293\n00:53:12.520 --> 00:53:24.000\nNo doubt about it.\n\n1294\n00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:28.400\nThere's a lot of great stuff we can learn from Charlie from this episode.\n\n1295\n00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:33.000\nFor one thing, he reminds us that leaders cast a shadow and that people will do\n\n1296\n00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:33.280\nwhat\n\n1297\n00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:36.640\nyou do, not necessarily what you say.\n\n1298\n00:53:36.640 --> 00:53:38.640\nSo set the right example.\n\n1299\n00:53:38.640 --> 00:53:42.710\nMake sure the values and priorities you say are important are reflected in what\n\n1300\n00:53:42.710 --> 00:53:43.600\nyou actually\n\n1301\n00:53:43.600 --> 00:53:44.920\ndo.\n\n1302\n00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:47.800\nPeople will notice and follow suit.\n\n1303\n00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:51.680\nNow to really make this learning count, you've got to apply it.\n\n1304\n00:53:51.680 --> 00:53:55.920\nSo think about the actions you've taken at work in the last day or so.\n\n1305\n00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:59.680\nHow do they reflect the priorities you set for your team?\n\n1306\n00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:04.800\nIf there's a disconnect, ask why and what you need to do about it.\n\n1307\n00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:06.840\nSo do you want to know how leaders lead?\n\n1308\n00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:11.040\nWhat we learned today is the great leaders set the right example.\n\n1309\n00:54:11.040 --> 00:54:15.970\nComing up next on how leaders lead is Will Gadera, the former owner of 11\n\n1310\n00:54:15.970 --> 00:54:17.080\nMadison Park,\n\n1311\n00:54:17.080 --> 00:54:23.520\none of the most renowned restaurants in the world and ranked at the very, very\n\n1312\n00:54:23.520 --> 00:54:23.920\ntop.\n\n1313\n00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:28.760\nAt the end of the day, you can't lead a group that isn't willing to follow you.\n\n1314\n00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:33.170\nAnd one of the best ways to get people to follow you is if they trust you and\n\n1315\n00:54:33.170 --> 00:54:33.680\nit is so\n\n1316\n00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:40.440\nmuch easier for people to trust you if they know you and feel known by you.\n\n1317\n00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:44.800\nSo be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation.\n\n1318\n00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.420\nThanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead where every\n\n1319\n00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:49.240\nThursday you\n\n1320\n00:54:49.240 --> 00:54:53.920\nget to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world.\n\n1321\n00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:57.950\nI may get a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can\n\n1322\n00:54:57.950 --> 00:54:58.800\napply to your\n\n1323\n00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:02.600\nbusiness so that you will become the best leader you can be.\n\n1324\n00:55:02.600 --> 00:55:12.600\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n\n1325\n00:55:12.600 --> 00:55:22.600\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n","

David Novak 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. You probably heard the tongue in cheek expression, do as I say, not as I do. And you've probably worked with people who lead that way, saying one thing, but doing something entirely different. Well, my guest today is not that kind of leader. Charlie Sharpe is the CEO and President of Wells Fargo. He took over in 2019, which, as you may know, if you follow the banking industry was a real low point in the company. But listen, the turnaround he's leading there is remarkable. And you're going to hear all about it today. You'll also hear a leader who understands that you can't just say what your priorities and values are. Although that's crucial. You've got to set the example yourself. So your decisions and actions align with those priorities. That's how you earn the respect and trust you need to get people working together and following you and believing in you. Let's see how it's done. Here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Charlie Scharf.

You know, Charlie, I knew you were into tennis, I knew you were into golf. But I learned that you're also a woodworker. And you're the only leader I know who's a woodworker, what's the best thing you ever made?

Charlie Scharf 1:48

The best thing I ever made was I built a library in house I owned years ago. And when I say built, I, raw wood delivered to the house, started from scratch, created my own molding, built shells. And I gather, it's still standing because we know the people that own the house.

David Novak 2:05

Great, you know, and I got to ask you, what's an essential skill in woodworking that you've carved into your leadership?

Charlie Scharf 2:13

Well, I would say one of the essential skill. But the other reason why I enjoyed it. Number one is the essential skill was, you've got to be precise. When you're building something, it has to fit together, every eighth of an inch matters, you got to plan ahead. And you've got to know what that precision is going to look like. And the same thing is true. When you're running a big organization and stuff happens, you got to figure out how to adapt to it. But you got to go into it with a real plan. That's precise. But the reason why I really enjoyed doing things like that is because you need to clear your mind, you need to do things that that you focus on that allow yourselves to unwind. And that enables me to put even more focus back into work, because I'm able to decompress in various ways.

David Novak 2:54

When you unwind like that. And you reflect as a woodworker, do you ever recall a an idea that really came here, as you were you were doing that craft?

Charlie Scharf 3:03

I think about people differently. When I'm in the moment I react, we're having a two way conversation. But when you go off and you have a chance to unwind, I have a chance to reflect on what are people really like? What are they really saying? How intuitive are they? Are they compassionate about others? So I think about people much more broadly, when I'm reflecting back on the conversation when I have time to not to be in the moment and be dealing with the issue.

David Novak 3:32

It makes a lot of sense. And you know, I can't wait to talk to you about how you're leaving at Wells Fargo. But first, I want to take you back to the beginning. What's a story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today.

Charlie Scharf 3:44

First of all, I was very, very lucky to grow up in a really great close family, but the family values were about being ethical. And they were about taking responsibility for yourself. And just working really hard. I remember I mean, I started working summer jobs when I was 12 years old. And I don't mean just paper routes and things like that. I did that when I was younger, but I really started instead of you know, going to just camp and things like that getting a summer job for the whole summer and working. It was very much about improving yourself, figuring out how, you know, the real world operates out there. And so I used to work summers, it was living in New Jersey, I used to commute into Manhattan with my dad. And it was very much about just the growing experience and about what you're learning about how the real world actually operates. And you grow up to know that if you know there's a world out there that you can get to know and if you put the effort into it with the right kinds of opportunities, and I was very lucky that way for sure. But you've got to make something for yourself.

David Novak 4:51

And I also remember you telling me once that the sharp house, no one ever missed dinner. I mean, yeah, he had to be there now what Do you remember most about those dinner conversations?

Charlie Scharf 5:02

So you're right, we I was incredibly lucky, my dad had a job where he really didn't travel. My mom, when I was growing up was a school teacher. And so we had dinner together every single night. It was a small house, and it was a small Eden area, we're all very, very close. I wouldn't describe it as formal. But everyone wished we shared what we did that day, we shared, what we learned, we shared what we wanted to do. And what I remember most about it was, it wasn't an intellectual conversation. But the conversations were all about, we all cared about each other. We all wanted to know what each other was going through, we wanted to know what we were experiencing. And you just walked away, in retrospect, knowing that you had this incredible support network that I've thought a lot about both, as I've been a parent, but also the responsibility you have at work when you manage people. You know,

David Novak 5:57

you've been a superstar in the world of banking for a long, long time. But what was it that you learned about yourself that made you want to get into finance in the first place.

Charlie Scharf 6:08

So I had a lot of summer jobs in the business world, and my dad was in the business world. But when I went to college, my thought was, I wanted to be a research chemist, I loved science, I was good at science in school. And so I went to school, and I took all these, these chemistry classes. And I realized very, very quickly, that I didn't want to live my life in a lab, no windows, not really engaging with people, that what I really loved was being part of something I love being the idea of working with a group of people as a team and building something. And that's what I saw business could be. And I was, you know, lucky enough to see that that was possible to know that you could work with a group of people who cared about you that you'd be able to grow alongside that. And so the idea of working with people working with a group doing something other than just sitting by yourself in a lab without any windows, that was far more appealing. That's how I wound up pivoting. Now,

David Novak 7:08

as you know, Charles, I'm more of a marketing person, and I gotta know, how in the world something is what could be perceptually perceived to be as dry as finance gives you so much joy, because it does.

Charlie Scharf 7:23

It does. You know, first of all, I think I grew up with finance. Because my because my dad was in financial service, you know, my dad was an investment advisor. And so we talked about the financial services world, we talked about the stock markets, that's the way I grew up. Very different. My wife's both parents were in the telecommunications world. And so those were their conversations. So our conversations were about financial services, and about how financial services and how those products and services really help people. And so I feel comfortable with it. But what ultimately, you come to realize is you can have a meaningful impact on people's lives. If you work in an organization, which is broad enough, and does the right thing.

David Novak 8:01

What would you say was your first big break in your career

Charlie Scharf 8:05

when I was in college, and I was going through the interview process, with school in Baltimore at Johns Hopkins, but I really wanted to be back in New York, and I wanted to work for a large financial services company. But my dad said to me, you really should think about this little company called commercial credit, little company that was based in Baltimore, which had just been taken over by Sandy Weill, who had started and built Shearson and became president of American Express. And Jamie Dimon who was the CFO. And he said, you know, this is a small company, these are great people, they're going to do great things. He encouraged me, and he actually helped get my resume to Jamie, who interviewed me and hired me. And the amazing thing was, you just knew when you met these people, that they were people that were going to do something much bigger than what that company was, and they wanted to bring people along with them. You know, I kind of stumbled into it, because my dad knew of Sandy and knew had a connection at my dad's cousin was close to Jamie's dad. And that got my resume to Jamie. And without that role, I'm not sure the succeeding roles would have happened, because I was just in a small company that grew into a very, very large company, and was able to grow myself along the way in ways that I think are just not always typical.

David Novak 9:24

So you get this opportunity to work alongside Jamie Dimon who's become one of the greatest CEOs of our time at JPMorgan Chase. What's the biggest thing you picked up from Jamie, that you've brought to Wells Fargo?

Charlie Scharf 9:37

You know, I think what I learned along the way, from Jamie is there's management and there's leadership. And both are really important. And sometimes people get those two things confused. They substitute one for the other. But when you're running a large, complex organization, you've got to manage the place right? You've got to have the right people in place. You gotta have the right priorities you got to run Have the right discipline. So you got to do all those things, which, when you think of what it takes to run a good company really matter. But at the same time, when you're leading a large group of people, they want to be led. And they want a leader, that they have confidence in, who they can relate to who they believe has the best interests of a broad group of people, not just themselves, their career, or a small group of people. You know, I think when I look back in life, if I had a choice of people saying he was a really great leader, or he was really great manager, I'd much rather them say he's really great leader. So I think it can be much more impactful as a leader than just in terms of what it takes to manage. You know,

David Novak 10:41

Charlie, I had the great pleasure of watching you in action when I was on the bank one and then the JPMorgan Chase boards. And you're an avid learner, and I saw you grow a lot after during the CFO job, you headed up all of retail for JPMorgan Chase, tell us the most impactful story of what you learned in that job.

Charlie Scharf 11:01

So what I learned in running these large retail organizations, which are retail organizations are about people, and retail organizations, I think it's the same because I came and I remember spending time with you and talked about, you know, what makes them successful, I had the opportunity in the past to look at different financial services, retail based organizations, but what you come to understand is, it is about the people. And if, yes, you've got to have the right products and services, you've got to if you've got really interesting marketing, incredibly helpful, but ultimately, the power of getting a group of people to work together doesn't matter what you're doing, whether it's rolling about running a financial services company, building the business at a bank branch, running a local supermarket, whatever it is, you get those people working together, and treating them like their owners, like they're really responsible for that and approach your role like you're there to support them. There's incredible power in that. And you get people working together, you give them some of the basic tools. And a lot of respects, just get out of the way, as you know, recognize people for what they do share the great stories. It doesn't matter whether you're managing one branch, 100 branches, 1000 branches, or 5000 branches, that magic is still the same if you can get that group of people working together and then replicating that same thing. You know, some

David Novak 12:26

people never really get that, Charlie, you know, did you ever have that aha moment or the epiphany where you saw something they just said, you know, when I see what it's all about, this goes

Charlie Scharf 12:37

back to when I was a commercial credit, there was a guy named Bob Leffler, you know, Bob ran the brand, the brand system. And he was just adamant about, he used to talk about treating people like grownups, very often, when you're at the top of the company, you think you know everything. And you've got to be very prescriptive about telling everyone what to do all the time. Because you know, and in reality, it's just the opposite. It's you need to figure out what you could do to be supportive of everyone who's actually dealing with customers every day, Home Depot used to talk about, when you do an org chart, you put the people who are closest to the customer at the top, and store support, which was the, you know, the corporate headquarters was at the bottom. And if you think about things, that way, you're there to support everyone else. And so what I saw was the way Bob implemented that and you do it by treating people, if you were your own company, how would you want to be treated, you'd have your results, you would have latitude to do a certain set of things. Yes, there guide rails and terms of within people have to work. But you actually saw the power of letting people manage their people and be embedded in those communities. Now, we're a big financial services company. So we've got to make sure that we do things, right, we have to have certain standards. So this isn't, you know, people can do whatever they want, just like when you were young, but you know, they want to do consistency and a lot of respects of certain things. But you want to bring out those individual characteristics, where people day in and day out, come in and can figure out how to do a great job for people that are walking through the door or that are in that community. Yeah, it's

David Novak 14:09

like a freedom within a framework. Yes. And then your first public company CEO job was at visa. What do you learn a visa that you're putting into action today?

Charlie Scharf 14:21

You know, I remember when I went to visa, I got a bunch of calls from people, some who I had worked with in the past, who've gone on to CEO roles, others who I didn't know who just just wanted to be nice, and they said, you know, these jobs can be they're hard, but they can be very lonely. And you need to think about how you are going to allow yourself to process and to deal with all the things that are coming at you because you don't know what it's going to be. And one day Things are going to be great. And then the next day you're going to have some crisis and then you're going to have a people problem and and that's just What happens, and what you have to remember is that everyone in that organization is looking at you. Everyone wants to know how you're feeling, they're gonna sense when you're in a good mood or a bad mood, they're gonna sense when you feel like things are up or, or you're feeling down. And that set the mood of the company. And as a leader, you need to figure out what tone you want to set. And so when I think about wells, and I think about what we've had to deal with, here, we've got a lot of hard work that's got to get done, we've got some hard decisions that we have to make. I've had some very good days and have had some very bad days. But what's most important is, if you believe you're doing the right thing, if you know that you're making progress along the way, that you've got to send that message to the organization, you got to be honest about what's worked well and what hasn't worked well. But people have to believe that you've got the confidence that you believe that you've got the team in place, that regardless of these ups or downs, that they should feel proud and confident to be part of the team that they're on.

David Novak 16:05

Absolutely. I know, when you went to visa, you earned a lot of praise Charlie and got a lot of accolades from analysts and investors, and insiders for basically breaking tradition. Tell me a story of how you did that. That

Charlie Scharf 16:21

actually was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, which is you go to a company, which was extremely successful. Visa was and still is the largest, most successful payments company in the world, the company had gone public for years before I got there, and the stock was up probably two or three times. And so you know, I show up as a first time CEO. And what you recognize is all those things I said were true. But if we just kept doing things the same way, we were gonna lose our position, we had to evolve, we had to embrace different things that that we weren't necessarily embracing, whether it was partnerships, whether it was what was happening in the digital space. And so trying to convince people, that what had made them successful for the past, probably 40 years that the company was in existence, wasn't going to be good enough going forward. And that was a challenge. But what I also found, people think when you have these leadership roles, that you can just tell people what to do, and they'll do things because you're in charge. And that might be true for a day or for a week or for a month. But that comes to an end, because people aren't just gonna blindly follow a leader. But what's most impactful is when people actually understand what it is you're thinking and why you're thinking it, you're making them part of the conversation, you're making part of the dialogue. And you're making people part of figuring out how we get from here to there. And so making sure that people understood when I got the visa, that I was when you look at the past success, that it is incredible, that a lot of it was due to the people that were still there. But those are the people also that are going to be the most impactful for the next 1015 20 years. And giving them the latitude to think more broadly about how the world has to evolve and have given people the license, when in fact you're pushing. But you want them to believe you're you're giving them the opportunity to take that next step. And you'll be there alongside them was something which I think is extremely impactful. That's

David Novak 18:17

like having a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo. So the way how you're you made it healthy was it? Was it because you acknowledged the success in the past and then said, Hey, let's raise the bar.

Charlie Scharf 18:29

Absolutely. Listen, you've got firstly, you got to be very respectful of the past, whether it's whether it's good or bad. I mean, the past is the past people come in, they work very hard. People want to work for positive leader, they want to work for someone that can point out the things that need to do better, but recognize the good things, and they're always good things, even if the sum total doesn't always work out the way you want. And so it is really important that you're looking for the things that work that people know that you recognize that those things have worked, how hard it is. But tomorrow is another day. And what made us successful yesterday isn't necessarily gonna make us successful tomorrow.

David Novak 19:06

And then Charlie, you had another huge CEO job. And that's when you became the CEO of Bank of New York Mellon. Tell us a story of the biggest leadership lesson you learned there and how you're applying it at Wells Fargo.

Charlie Scharf 19:21

Well, can you tell you a leadership story about leaving visa first?

Unknown Speaker 19:24

Sure.

Charlie Scharf 19:25

So this is this is an interesting one because i i love the job at visa. I love the people I work with. I love the industry. It was something that I thought I was going to do for the rest of my career. And I wound up leaving visa without having another job because of something that one of my daughters was going through. And people say to me, Oh, it must have been a really hard decision. And I look back on it and I told people at the time It's not a hard decision, actually, that everyone in their life has to figure out what their priorities are, they have to figure out what's important to them. And I've always said in my life that I love work. For me, it is one of the most important things that I do in the most the things that I get the most satisfaction with. But my family's before that. And so when a situation presented itself, where it was clear that it was just too hard for me to be five hours away on the West Coast, it was very obvious to me that that was the right thing to do. And that life in your career isn't always a straight line. Now, I was lucky enough that I had been successful, I had a good reputation. I was financially secure. But you sit there and say, I have to follow what I think the right thing to do is, and I've got the confidence that I will be able to find something that works in the context of what works for me personally, as well. And that's what took me back to New York, and then ultimately to be in white Mellon.

David Novak 20:58

And but you don't have to give up that power visa which you had taken to new heights. I mean, you were getting you form new partnerships, you've done all kinds of things to break the grounds, giving up that power. That had to be hard.

Charlie Scharf 21:13

Yes and no, I have worked really hard. Because I've seen people who have become very successful in business. And I've seen people choose two different paths. I've seen people who they are who they are, it doesn't change them. They treat people the same way. They don't let it get to their heads, they differentiate between what's the job versus what's them, what's the seat versus what's really you. And then I've seen other people who just come to believe that they are the job. And it defines them in a way which really isn't realistic. And I never liked that model. And I saw it do things to people that weren't the way I wanted to live my life. And so I have worked really hard to try and be very realistic about sitting in these big chairs. It's an honor, it's a privilege, hopefully I bring a lot to it. So I helped define it. But the day you leave that job, you're not going to be treated the same way, you're not going to be invited to the same function as you were invited before, you're not gonna be invited to steak dinners at the White House. And these things what I've been lucky enough to do, but I'm comfortable in who I am. And so if I never had a big job after that visa role, I'd look back on and say it wasn't that great fun. I enjoyed it. Yes. But that was one of the things that I did in my life. And that didn't define me.

David Novak 22:31

You know, that's like you say life is not a straight line. And then you did get the job to go to Bank of New York Mellon. Was there anything significant there that you picked up that, you know, that's helped you navigate the challenges that Wells Fargo shortlist.

Charlie Scharf 22:45

And I think, you know, when I went to, you know, being why Mellon, I would say it's a very, very different culturally than visa very, very different than whether, you know, the old city or JPMorgan, the companies I was able to work out before. So this was a company that was founded by Alexander Hamilton, great heritage, again, very, very proud group of people working for the institution providing super important services to other financial institutions around the world. But you know, that company, too, has to sit there and figure out what it's going to be in the future, figuring out how you motivate a group of people that the company was doing. Okay, not great. But it had this amazing past that people were really proud of, that's different to navigate, then visa, which was doing really, really well, that's very different to navigate. Then, when I was at JPMorgan, and we brought the Washington Mutual branches. And we had to get people on board quickly. But that was a company that had failed. So it's very easy to say, Listen, we want you to take a different path, you know, we can prove to you that it's gonna be successful. We had a roadmap for it, this was something that was very, very different. And so again, getting into the hearts and minds of people, of making them come to understand that we're, you know, little shot to realism, we're not doing as well, as we all think we are, we're living in the past a little bit. And we need to think about how we're going to do things differently while you're bringing people along. It's another application of what I had to do with Visa, but a very different one.

David Novak 24:14

You know, Jim Cramer of Mad Money has said that you buy the stock wherever Charlie goes, great compliment, you know, how do you handle such high expectations that that, you know, others have a view? I

Charlie Scharf 24:27

think one of the hardest things in these big jobs is the pressure. And I think you've got to figure out how to take that pressure. And to channel it positively. Because I've seen people who don't handle pressure well, and it actually hurts performance as opposed to just not, you know, not being helpful. You know, whether you've got, you know, someone like Jim who talks publicly and creates very high expectations for you know, in this case, Wells Fargo, you've got to look yourself in the mirror and say, You know something, I actually have that responsibility. You know, while these big jobs, you can fly around the world and do all these really important things, what you're really responsible for is delivering for a group of stakeholders, whether it's your shareholders, whether it's employees, whether it's supporting communities. And so for me, it's all about, I always ask myself the question, sometimes it's at night, when I go home, sometimes it's the morning when I'm having my cup of coffee, sometimes it's on the weekends, when you're unwinding a little bit is, am I doing enough? Am I missing something? Am I making the tough decisions? Am I being as helpful to the people inside the company that I can be as helpful to what do I need to do differently, so that I can actually, as part of this team here deliver in the way that people expect. And I've been lucky enough that the platforms that I've been a part of, I think all have the capability to be more successful, 510 15 years out than when I arrived at that company. So I think the opportunity is there. And so then it comes down to am I doing all the things that I could be doing with my team to take advantage of those things?

David Novak 26:03

Now, I want to take you back to five years ago, when you were appointed CEO of Wells Fargo, the Financial Times described it as the worst job in banking. What made it so from their perspective, it

Charlie Scharf 26:17

was not even close to the worst job incredibly hard. I think that's what they probably meant to say, is when I arrived at Wells Fargo, great history, great franchise had been the most respected financial institution in the world. And we made some terrible mistakes, we made some mistakes with customers, we didn't build the right infrastructure inside the company. So we didn't catch it, our regulators pointed it out. We didn't fix the problems. We didn't necessarily fess up to the mistakes that we had made, which the public didn't like. And so you know, that's a tough situation to come into. So when you make your list of like, you're going to, you're going to show up the next day at a company, it was a difficult situation. But the people at the company were amazing. They all wanted to do whatever was necessary to bring back the respect that this company has had. We do an amazing job serving individuals and corporate customers of all sizes across this country and have done it since 1852. So you look at it and say, you know, I've got a two pronged effort here. Number one is to just fix the very basics, which were very obvious to me, but we had not done a great job at. And then the opportunity is to rebuild what is completely within our capabilities, which is taking advantage of this amazing franchise that we have. So again, I actually think it was a great job. Otherwise, I wouldn't have wanted to have come and do it. But there's no doubt it was hard. Listen, you have problems, you're in the spotlight, you got the government, you've got the regulators, you've got the public on you. I mean, those things are not necessarily fun every single day. But there's a clear path to winding up in a very different place.

David Novak 28:02

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Charlie Scharf in just a moment, as you've heard his talk about Charlie got his big break early in his career working alongside Jamie Dimon, who's now the chairman and CEO of JPMorgan Chase, in our episode on how leaders lead, Jamie talks about how you always need a plan to deal with problems.

Jamie Dimon 28:23

You and I know that big companies are always slowing down and always getting more bureaucratic. So and I have a lot of great leaders now. So I don't have to do it for them. But I still do it. I return every phone call every email. If I see someone's really dumb, I make sure it gets fixed. I tell them to today. Don't Don't don't start this thing. And we'll get we'll get to it when it's on my list. So, you know, every now and then I still just go do it today. And people smile. They say he's still Jamie Oh, he's drunk. But as you know, what do you do with very good leaders, you got to let them do it to go

David Novak 28:51

back and listen to my entire conversation with Jamie, Episode 14 here on how leaders lead.

So you go to visa, it's a rocket ship. You got a successful company. Now you got to take it to the next level. You go to Wells Fargo, where are you inherit? I would say a bit of a mess. Which would you rather do? Would you rather go into the place it's ticking? Or would you rather go into a place that you know you got to turn around?

Charlie Scharf 29:24

I mean, honestly, I don't have an answer to them. Because everyone always thinks that when you're in your situation, there's always another situation which feels different. It feels easier, I think back to when I was at visa and people used to say, oh, high growth company, high P E stock. Well, you have a different set of issues, which is you are growing really quickly. There's an expectation that you're going to continue to do that. You have your own dynamics that are there and so that job isn't easy. And so the people that have continued to run that company and build it, they feel the same kind of pressure in a lot of respects than I feel to deliver you just what you have to deal with day in and day out is very, very different. So what I get pleasure about is moving something forward is taking something that exists a certain way. And when I leave it, I want to believe that it's better than when I got there. And it's better not just on its merits, but people that are inside feel that it's better people outside feel that it's better. And I create a platform for the people who come after me to even do more with it. And so, you know, taking something at wells where we had all these problems, but it was a great franchise. Yes, fixing the problems, but also continuing to build on the great place. That is incredibly gratifying.

David Novak 30:34

Speaking of problems, you had, I believe, up to 13 Consent Orders? Tell us what that means. In the world of banking, these are the the regulatory issues that you have, what does it mean for the novice out there?

Charlie Scharf 30:46

So listen, the regulators are here every day, they look at what we do. And their job is to make sure that we're running the place in a safe and sound manner. And so if they think you can do something better, they give you a finding, they call it a matter an MRA a matter requiring attention. If you're not doing enough to get it done, or it's significant enough, they can give you a consent order at that point. And a consent order is a it's basically cease and desist doing something which is bad, and do the following things to fix what we think you need to get fixed. So it's a you know, there's not a clear message than that, that says, You can't doing continue to do things the same way. You have to address those issues. If not, you can wind up with additional restrictions, which ultimately could also lead towards you not being able to grow, or being forced to shrink or eventually not being an independent company more. So

David Novak 31:39

you have 13 of these. I mean, that's that's a lot of them. And I know you've been whittling them down as a leader, what have you learned about solving tough problems like that? What's it take?

Charlie Scharf 31:50

So I think first of all, I do think can never look past the obvious. So we can sit here today. And we can say, Oh my God, you have all these consent orders. If you have one consent order, that can actually ultimately do those really, really bad things to you beyond just the consent order, you would marshal all your resources towards fixing it. So when you show up a company, and you've got 1011 1213 of these, you would think that the whole company would understand that and would be geared towards fixing it. And that's not what I found, when you come to realize is, again, don't assume that what is obvious to you is obvious to everyone else, that you need to make sure everyone understands what that realism really is, and then what it takes to actually do the work. And so whether it's one consent, order five consent orders, 10 Consent Orders, it's work, just like growing a business or opening new branches of business. So you got to put your effort around. Okay, what does it take to do it? Do we have the right people in place? Do we have the right processes in place? Do we have the right reporting in place? Have we created the right sense of urgency around it, so that people understand that there is nothing more important than this? Everything else? All, you know, the ability to to grow, to introduce new products, if we don't run our business in a way that our regulators feel that we're safe and sound, then we can't do those other things. So it's not just telling people to do things. It's making people understand how this all fits together? Why we have to do it. And here's the recipe that it's going to take to get it done.

David Novak 33:18

Charlie, you know, you mentioned sense of urgency. And that's something that you've always had, how do you build a sense of urgency into the culture,

Charlie Scharf 33:26

I would say several ways. Number one is just clarity of the message. Whether you're managing a group of five people in a department, a branch or a store with 1015 20 people in it, or a large organization, you need to communicate over and over and over again, whatever the message is, you want people to hear, saying something once in a note saying something once in a town hall, people will hear it. But that's not galvanizing. People don't necessarily know what to do with that. And so figure out what that message is. So in this case, it is this is our number one priority, nothing is more important. Here's why. And here's what we're going to do about it, is do it in a note, do it in town halls, do it one on one with individuals, do it in group meetings, make sure the management team is doing it consistently. And what they most importantly need to see after that is that we're doing it ourselves. So do what I do, not just what I say. And so we become the role models for Listen, we're treating with a sense of urgency, here's what we mean by that. So in our case, it was that the operating committee reviews these things multiple times a week, we sit in a room, we go through all the detail over and over and over again, we make sure that we're close enough to make sure we're providing the support, we're making sure that we're finding the right resources that people are directed properly. And if they see us do that, then they see that as a role model. But even more importantly, for the people who sit around my table for them to be successful. The only way they're going to be successful is if they do that with their group. And if their group then doesn't with their group, and so on and so forth, you create this machine that fits together in terms of how we execute, but they understand how it fits into a broader picture, which is that communication piece, which is so necessary. You

David Novak 35:13

know, in the world of finance, you've got a lot of very smart, very talented, analytical people. What are the soft skills that you're trying to build into the company, we

Charlie Scharf 35:24

are defined by what we do, not just what we say. And what I found at large companies. And I think Wells Fargo fell into this trap a little bit too much is we spent a lot of time putting on a piece of paper, what our vision was, what our values were, which is not unimportant. But then do we ask ourselves, are we living it every single day? Are we really making decisions based upon the framework that we said, this is what we want to be? You know, I always use the example of people always talk about, you know, put the customer first. And I don't know a company that stands up and says, they're not going to put the customer first. But then when you go ask the question, are we making decisions every day based upon that? Or are we making decisions that we think are, you know, better for an employee here in terms of whether it's going to drive their compensation? Are we making a decision because we think it's going to make us more money. And so if you really believe that, if you've got a set of fair products and services that are priced fairly out there, that if you're doing the right things to the customer, then you will eventually be rewarded. And so using that lens, but not just having it on a piece of paper, asking the question, are we actually making decisions based upon those expectations that we've set for ourselves? That's what's going to define us. And ultimately, our culture is going to be defined by the way people view us whether it's our customers, whether it's people who work there, whether it's people in our communities, that's going to define what the company is not what's on our sheet of paper, you want those two things to agree. But you have to live it every single day.

David Novak 36:54

You know, no question, you and your team have been rebuilding Wells Fargo, which is one of the world's great financial franchises, period, you know, and you're building that brick by brick back to where it needs to be. What are you most proud of that you've accomplished so far?

Charlie Scharf 37:10

What I think about where we are today, I think that we are a more respected company, today than we were four and a half years ago when I got here. And again, what I want to do is, I want to leave this company a lot better when I leave it than when I got here. And people are going to find that different ways. You know, our communities are going to say we're supportive, the communities, we're helping them going to grow, our customers are going to say, it's because we're doing the right thing by them. The people who work here are going to say, I'm treated, as well as I can be treated at any company. And they're providing opportunities for me and they care about me. All those things come together to say like, are we a more respected company? And I think we are and I want it to be more so tomorrow than it is today. And a year from now. You

David Novak 37:56

come to Wells Fargo, the stocks, 40 COVID hits, you go down in the 20s. Now you're in around the $60 range. How do you deal with that period? Where the stocks just not move? And how do you deal with that? And then how do you deal with it when now it is moving? What's the difference? Or is there a difference?

Charlie Scharf 38:17

So we have our management every every year we get tough 200 people together, you came in very kind to speak to that group a couple of years ago. And when I tell them is, you know, this stock on a daily basis doesn't matter. You know, because a lot of factors contribute to the stock going up or going down. But over a period of time, it absolutely gets it right, the market does get it right. And so you know, if you're going from 40 to 20, it's for a reason. And you need to make sure that you internalize that. And the same thing on the way up. And so you know, when the stock was down in the 20s, it was during COVID. It was interest rates, you know, we're an all time low, we're very interest rate sensitive. But again, you do need to look at it and say that, you know, there, there are people that rely on Wells Fargo to be a well performing financial institution. There are people that own the stock, there are people that rely on the dividend and it comes back to are we doing everything we can to build the place in a way which will make us more successful tomorrow. And when it comes back to taking that pressure that you should feel and channeling it in a positive way? Are we doing all the things that we should be doing? Are we making the tough decisions. And so you know, you do need to be out in front inside the company. You know, I focus less outside the company because I think outside the company, we want to tell a consistent story. And people will if you're doing the right things, and they'll see that but inside the company, people want to know that you've got the confidence that you've got the plan that that management and this is the management team, that's not going to be okay with the stock being in the 20s we want to go back up to the 40s and then higher from there. And so now you fast forward and you know, we're in the 60s and so on the one hand, you know, obviously feels much better than it did at 40 or 20. It's wonderful for people inside the company to see the value 401k, you know, be at all time highs, and they tell you that. But that too creates another set of pressures. Because what you've proven to people is we can make progress. We have figured a lot out here. But it's not a project, it's not a one time effort. It's all about continuing to drive the place forward, if you make the right decisions, get our problems behind us, build, grow, support our customers across this country, it'll be reflected in the stock price, and that ultimately, for a lot of people will determine whether we've been successful or not.

David Novak 40:30

I've known you for a long time, how would you describe yourself today, as a leader compared to what you were 10 to 15 years ago,

Charlie Scharf 40:38

I think I'm very, very different. I think, you know, mature, whether it's age maturity, going through the things I've gone through, but I think I am, for people that I work with really closely, I think I'm far more open than I ever was. Meaning I have come to really see the value in a team. And not that I didn't know that years ago. But I think at this point, and especially running institution, the size and scope of Wells Fargo, I can't do everything myself, I can't be in all these meetings, I can't make a lot of the decisions that I was able to make when my job was much, much smaller. And I'm very, very reliant on a group of people with their intelligence and their experience, but also figuring out how to bring that group of people together to channel all of our experience and knowledge into something which is better than we can do individually. And to me, that's gotta be personal, that you know, business is business. But I want people to believe that I care about them, that we care about each other. I want them to know a little something about me about, you know, what makes me tick about, you know, what makes my weekend fun or not so fun. So that, you know, we're really in this together in a way that is not doesn't cross the line between business and personal. But it's not just business. And I think if you can create that kind of environment, you create a bond between people, which is very, very different than something which is just purely third party professional.

David Novak 42:09

You know, Charlie, you talk about being vulnerable. And in what I've always learned is that when you talk about your failures, some people really love that. I mean, do you have a failure story that you'd like to talk about that people actually love hearing at Wells Fargo?

Charlie Scharf 42:23

I do. And I've Mike mayo, who was our bank analyst here, it actually repeats the story very frequently inside wells. Now he goes back to this goes back to when I was at JPMorgan Chase. And it was the financial crisis. And I was running a bunch of the consumer lending businesses amongst other things, and we made a bunch of mistakes in the home equity business. And very often in business, people are afraid to admit their mistakes. And they'll come up with a whole bunch of reasons why it's not so bad, or they'll blame it on someone else. And at one of our investor days, I stood up and I went through the problem. I said, Listen, here are the mistakes that we made. Here's what the result is. And here's what we're going to do differently. And Mike tells the story, because he said, you know, oh my God, that's you know, he stood up there, he talked about all the mistakes he made, he's gonna lose his job. And what he came to understand, and what I thought was important is it's just the opposite is people actually have more respect for you. Because they sit there and say, You're willing to recognize and learn from what you did wrong, you're gonna put it out there. Now you have to actually learn from it and do things differently in the future, but not walk away from the problems.

David Novak 43:30

All right, that's a great story. Now on flip the script, what have you learned from winning, that you've applied into Wells Fargo? Listen,

Charlie Scharf 43:39

you know, ultimately, I'm going to come to work every day because I want to win. And so I can talk about wanting to do the right thing. And I can talk about wanting to make people feel good. But I am competitive. Everything that we do is competitive. There's a judge out there. And so I'm not shy about wanting to tell people that we're not winning today. And we should be winning, and I want to win. And we're gonna do everything it takes within the way we want to run the company within the principle, we want to run the company to get there. And you know, I'm going to be the one leading the charge, I'm going to be the one working the hardest, I'm going to be the one making some of the tough decisions. But if you just want to be okay, then this isn't the right place for you. You

David Novak 44:17

know, at Wells, you just been, you know, knocking off the problems one by one. But I know you you don't think you've won the Superbowl yet, you know, how do you celebrate the first bounce?

Charlie Scharf 44:27

It's incredibly important. Because, listen, the fact is, I mean, we still have some issues from the past that we haven't resolved. And when we look at the performance of the business, even though we're doing much better, and the stock is an all time high, we're not doing nearly as well as we could do. But I want people to understand that the things that we're doing are working, that's what's driving those improvements along the way. So it's really important to balance celebrating the success, but not declaring victory prematurely. So I'm always really, really clear. I feel really great about the progress that we've made. I'm incredibly proud of Have what everyone at Wells Fargo has accomplished. And by the way, they've worked incredibly hard to get there. And I want them to feel that and to be proud themselves. So then when people talk to them that they can actually feel that way. But at the same time, any celebration of success prematurely means that you're ultimately cannot take full advantage of that opportunity, or you're gonna go backwards. And so, you know, encouragement along the way, making people understand that, hey, we've got this, we know how to get this done. And you're the right team to do it. Keep going forward. And there's that balance, but both sides are important.

David Novak 45:34

Yeah, Charlie, it's been so much fun. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions here. So you're ready for this? Yes. All right. What three words best describe you?

Charlie Scharf 45:43

Honest, hard working? Family, man.

David Novak 45:47

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself? Who would it be?

Charlie Scharf 45:52

I think it'd be fun to be president United States for a day.

David Novak 45:55

What's your biggest pet peeve

Charlie Scharf 45:57

is not dealing with reality.

David Novak 46:00

Who would play you in a movie?

Charlie Scharf 46:02

Oh, I don't know. I you can answer that? Well, I've no idea.

David Novak 46:05

Gotta be Charlie Sheen. Come on.

Charlie Scharf 46:09

There's good and bad that comes to that. He's a complicated guy.

David Novak 46:13

How long did it take you to learn to play the guitar? Not

Charlie Scharf 46:17

long, but I was very musical growing up. But having said that, I'm so far from where I want to be. What's

David Novak 46:24

your favorite song to play in the guitar?

Charlie Scharf 46:26

Laila? Can you sing? Not? Well,

David Novak 46:29

you've got an hour to yourself, or you woodworking or playing the guitar playing the guitar? If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear? You'll

Charlie Scharf 46:39

hear Spotify radio, which would be something like Rolling Stones, dire straits, something from the classic rock era

David Novak 46:47

was something about you, few people would know. I'm very sensitive. What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss? My

Charlie Scharf 46:57

morning time. Every morning, doesn't matter whether I'm, I have to leave really early to travel doesn't matter whether I'm an exercise, or I've got to get into work a certain time. I need an hour in the morning, drinking my coffee, reading papers and just being with myself.

David Novak 47:14

Great lightning round, Charlie, and we're about to wrap this up just a few more questions for you here. You're on the board of Microsoft, what have you pulled from that experience that's made you a better leader?

Charlie Scharf 47:25

You know, that's a great question. Because it's been an amazing experience for me, and I'm privileged to be able to be there. I think what I've experienced two things. Number one, I think with with all great boards, that you get the opportunity to see a bunch of people from different industries, think about issues in ways that you don't necessarily think about them. So we've got people from the beverage industry, you got people from the technology industry, we have people from the pharma world, and to see how they approach an issue. And it's a different way of thinking which gets you thinking differently, because we all grew up a certain way to see how other people tackle an issue that have grown up differently. And the second is, honestly, it's just watching the intelligence of the folks at Microsoft. First of all, they are incredibly smart. They're always thinking about tomorrow, with all the success they've had, whether it goes back to when Bill Gates founded the company, or the success that Satya has had, since he became CEO, they don't talk about that they talk about what they should be nervous about what the opportunities are, and what they're going to do to for tomorrow. And it's that drive, it's that ambition, and it's just that application of that raw intelligence to actually bring it come together in a way which makes that company far more successful. Each successive year, you know, such

David Novak 48:48

a Nadella, he basically wanted to transform the culture, as I understand that from a were a know it all culture to a learn at all culture. How is he done that from as you've watched it? From

Charlie Scharf 49:00

my perspective, it's him. People see, that's who he is. And so you're absolutely right. But he starts with, I think I know a lot. But there's a huge amount, I don't know. And so whether it's asking questions of the board, whether it's asking questions in the management team, asking the people on the management team questions that they don't know the answers to, and to create a very safe environment, to say, we don't know everything, what can we learn from others. And again, when you meet him, when you see him in action, you just you can't not notice that and that becomes the standard.

David Novak 49:33

You know, you and your wife Amy, you have two daughters. How do you lead at home, Charlie?

Charlie Scharf 49:39

I don't know if I lead at home. I feel it this first of all, I do have my daughters are 29 and 27. They're fabulous. And my wonderful wife. And I think back to you know what I described when I was a kid in terms of what that unit is like we're a unit and every one is important. One of the things that my wife and I are very proud of is that that they want to be around us. And not just because they get a free meal every once in a while, think they like spending time with us. They like having dinner, they like us seeing their friends. And so for me, I think it's very much about respecting their space. But also making sure that you strike that right balance between being a friend to them, but also providing the counsel where they need and in a way that they actually want you part of their lives.

David Novak 50:27

All right, last question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who wants to be a better leader? Your

Charlie Scharf 50:34

ability to lead is based upon your willingness to listen to the feedback that people have for you, that you can think that you are doing the right thing that you're providing the right kind of counsel, you can probably in the right kind of direction, but people will tell you exactly what they think it's no different than if you want to get ahead in your career at any point in time. There's no better person to do that than yourself. There's a huge amount of information out there, there are people that are available to help you. And the same thing is true when you're a leader, which is asked the question, which is how do people feel about working with you? What can you learn from what people have to say or what other experiences they've had. And then at the same time, I think you just have to recognize that sometimes leaders have to do unpopular things. And so it's not a popularity contest, there's a fine line between, you know, when you're a leader, I said this before, right people sometimes when the outside think you're the leader, you can do anything you want. And you know, that's true up to a point. And sometimes, you know, that can lead to either a very small revolt or a very large vote. So you have to earn the right to be a leader. And so that means that people have to want to follow you, they have to believe that you just don't have the intelligence so that you've got the plan, but that you're the person who's going to treat everyone the way they want to be treated. And again, if you ask people how you are performing on these different dimensions, they'll tell you. And for me, I'm always recalibrating that and I'm lucky, I'm surrounded by a management team that tells me all the time, they'll tell me, it's not every hour, it's not every day. But if I'm doing a little bit too much, I'm being a little too tough on people, I'll get that and say listen, we understand tight, you know that we got a lot to get done. But you might be pushing too hard. Or it could be the opposite extreme, or it could be you're being you know, you're too difficult on this issue and not recognizing the progress and the power of all that information. If you're not tapping into that, then you're just missing something. And you're not going to be the kind of leader that the people want to be surrounded by.

David Novak 52:45

You know, Charlie, you are a great leader. You've had enormous success. Congratulations on all the progress that you've made it Wells Fargo. But if I had to sum you up, from my perspective, is that you've got that uncanny combination of confidence that you have to have as a leader combined with humility. And that's what I see in the very best. And I thank you for sharing your insights with us today.

Charlie Scharf 53:10

I appreciate that very kind, David, thank you.

David Novak 53:22

No doubt about it. There's a lot of great stuff we can learn from Charlie from this episode. For one thing, he reminds us that leaders cast a shadow, and that people will do what you do not necessarily what you say. So set the right example, make sure the values and priorities you say are important are reflected in what you actually do. People will notice and follow suit. Now to really make this learning count, you've got to apply it. So think about the actions you've taken at work in the last day or so. How do they reflect the priorities you set for your team? If there's a disconnect, ask why and what you need to do about it. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders set the right example. Coming up next on how leaders lead as we'll get era, the former owner of 11 Madison Park, one of the most renowned restaurants in the world, and rank at the very, very top.

Will Guidara 54:23

But the end of the day, you can't lead a group that isn't willing to follow you and one of the best ways to get people to follow you as if they trust you. And it is so much easier for people to trust you if they know you and feel known by you. So be

David Novak 54:40

sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business. So the You will become the best leader you can be

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