[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_138":-5,"_139":-5,"_140":141,"_142":143,"_144":145},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/2724/how-to-build-a-culture-where-loyalty-thrives","id",2724,"title","How to build a culture where loyalty thrives","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.320\nHow do you keep these people?\n\n2\n00:00:01.320 --> 00:00:04.280\n- Look, I think people realize that I was all in,\n\n3\n00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:07.000\nthat I wasn't asking anything of anyone\n\n4\n00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:09.040\nthat I wasn't demanding of myself.\n\n5\n00:00:09.040 --> 00:00:14.040\nAnd I think that's a really gotta be a premise.\n\n6\n00:00:14.040 --> 00:00:19.680\nI think that there was a purity to what we did.\n\n7\n00:00:19.680 --> 00:00:23.440\nWe didn't have meetings, there were times that we would meet,\n\n8\n00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.160\nbut anyone could come to that meeting.\n\n9\n00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:28.320\nLook, I wanted to know what the secretary thought.\n\n10\n00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:30.920\nIt was transparency.\n\n11\n00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:34.000\nIn our, everyone got access to the positions.\n\n12\n00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.040\nThere was a culture of no bureaucracy\n\n13\n00:00:38.040 --> 00:00:43.040\nand of really my goal was that I didn't have a sense\n\n14\n00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:47.920\nof pride of authorship.\n\n15\n00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:49.720\nIt didn't matter if it was my idea or not.\n\n16\n00:00:49.720 --> 00:00:51.480\nI wanted the best, most compelling,\n\n17\n00:00:51.480 --> 00:00:54.600\nmost rational ideas in our positions.\n\n18\n00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:59.280\nAnd I think that that was refreshing to people.\n\n19\n00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:03.360\nAnd I think people believed that I was being objective.\n\n20\n00:01:03.360 --> 00:01:05.200\nThey may at times have disagreed with me,\n\n21\n00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:07.720\nbut I don't think they questioned my motives.\n\n22\n00:01:07.720 --> 00:01:11.600\nAnd I think that the lack of,\n\n23\n00:01:11.600 --> 00:01:13.160\nthere was no form over content.\n\n24\n00:01:13.160 --> 00:01:14.640\nWe didn't have committees.\n\n25\n00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:17.480\nThere's that great line that a camel\n\n26\n00:01:17.480 --> 00:01:18.920\nis a horse made by committee.\n\n27\n00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:23.920\nI mean, I think that when you start getting committees\n\n28\n00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:28.480\nand people, you know,\n\n29\n00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:31.080\nsort of responsible for other people,\n\n30\n00:01:31.080 --> 00:01:35.200\nthere's a lot that goes awry\n\n31\n00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:39.280\nand that undermines what you're trying to create.\n\n32\n00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:43.240\nSo I think that there was just a big belief\n\n33\n00:01:43.240 --> 00:01:46.040\nin our process and in ourselves.\n\n34\n00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:47.720\nAnd I think that that's why\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",1745359,"end_time",1849990,"keywords","Culture, loyalty, team, turnover, meetings, transparency, operations","slug","how-to-build-a-culture-where-loyalty-thrives","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","FZ02SErAFl2WzsKz4iJIWkH4CSzVrWJw00017JsN5X3fB8","mux_asset_id","bOEfanjOQl01wDEKQAh46M00AlQcZMwjNq1m7Pz02oYx2E","leader_id",207,"episode_id",357,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:58:18.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/2724/how-to-build-a-culture-where-loyalty-thrives","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_107":108,"_25":109,"_110":-5,"_62":111,"_59":111,"_112":113,"_69":114,"_39":115,"_116":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_117":118,"_91":119,"_44":120,"_121":122,"_123":124,"_46":-5,"_125":126,"_127":128,"_95":129,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":58,"_59":60,"_61":-5,"_62":60,"_63":-5,"_64":65,"_66":67,"_68":-5,"_69":-5,"_70":71,"_72":73,"_74":75,"_35":36,"_39":76,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_46":-5,"_92":93,"_94":-5,"_95":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Excellence is a habit","excellence-is-a-habit","Learn how to make excellence not just a standard you meet, but a habit you develop. Discover the #1 leadership trait you need to build a loyal team. Plus, what leaders can learn about problem solving from chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen.","summary","

“Excellence” is a word we tend to throw around in the business world. But it’s not just a standard you aim for. It’s a habit you develop!

And no one exemplifies that better than Doug Hirsch, the owner of the Arizona Drive Pickleball Team and founder of Seneca Capital. Plus, he’s a philosophy buff, a chess whiz, and a nationally ranked pickleball player himself!

Hit play on this conversation for an inspiring look at what it takes to bring habits of excellence into your world. You’ll also learn:

Why that chip on your shoulder might be a good thing
The leadership quality that builds a loyal, transparent culture
How to know when it’s time to move on from a job
One of leadership’s most underrated tools—and how to use it

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.060\nThe most successful team in the history of sports has been the New Zealand All\n\n2\n00:00:04.060 --> 00:00:04.560\nBlacks,\n\n3\n00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:09.440\nand their mantra is \"sweep the shed.\" And what it means is that nothing is too\n\n4\n00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:10.480\nsmall even for\n\n5\n00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:15.120\ntheir superstars. And I think that that's a huge thing.\n\n6\n00:00:15.120 --> 00:00:29.120\nOkay everybody, are you ready for this? Buckle up, because this conversation is\n\n7\n00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:29.920\ngoing to go from\n\n8\n00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:36.480\npickleball to philosophy to hedge funds to chess. And I promise you, there are\n\n9\n00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:37.840\nleadership lessons at\n\n10\n00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:43.200\nevery turn. Welcome to How Leaders Lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have\n\n11\n00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.240\nconversations\n\n12\n00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.450\nwith the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you\n\n13\n00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:49.040\ncan be.\n\n14\n00:00:49.040 --> 00:00:54.250\nMy guest today is Doug Hirsch, who as you may have guessed is a true\n\n15\n00:00:54.250 --> 00:00:56.560\nRenaissance man. He's the\n\n16\n00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:01.040\nformer founder of the hedge fund Seneca Capital, and the guy who launched the\n\n17\n00:01:01.040 --> 00:01:01.520\npopular\n\n18\n00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:07.420\nzone investment conference. He's also the owner of Major League Pickleball Team\n\n19\n00:01:07.420 --> 00:01:07.520\n,\n\n20\n00:01:07.520 --> 00:01:13.120\nthe Arizona Drive, and a heck of a player himself. Having recently been crowned\n\n21\n00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:13.680\nthe men's\n\n22\n00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:20.860\nover 60 nationals champion, and is now playing on the senior pro circuit. I\n\n23\n00:01:20.860 --> 00:01:22.880\nmean, everything Doug\n\n24\n00:01:22.880 --> 00:01:28.110\ndoes, he succeeds at. And sometimes when we see that kind of excellence, we\n\n25\n00:01:28.110 --> 00:01:29.200\nwant to attribute it to\n\n26\n00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:34.350\nraw talent and intelligence. And sure, they're important, but that's not all\n\n27\n00:01:34.350 --> 00:01:36.000\nthat really matters.\n\n28\n00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:41.280\nListen to this conversation and discover why excellence isn't just a standard\n\n29\n00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:42.720\nto meet. It's a\n\n30\n00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:47.700\nhabit to develop. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be\n\n31\n00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:48.960\nyours, Doug Hirsch.\n\n32\n00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:59.680\nYou know, Doug, you are a pickleball fanatic. How did you get into it?\n\n33\n00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:06.050\nWell, it was a funny story. I was having breakfast one day with Larry\n\n34\n00:02:06.050 --> 00:02:06.800\nFitzgerald. We were going to\n\n35\n00:02:06.800 --> 00:02:11.820\nplay golf, and it was raining, and he suggested we go play pickleball, and it\n\n36\n00:02:11.820 --> 00:02:12.560\nwas, he might as\n\n37\n00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:17.440\nwell suggest we go play bingo. I thought it was just crazy. I was very\n\n38\n00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:18.720\ndismissive of the\n\n39\n00:02:18.720 --> 00:02:21.920\nsport. I didn't know anything about it, but that didn't stop me from being\n\n40\n00:02:21.920 --> 00:02:23.040\ndismissive and skeptical.\n\n41\n00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:27.710\nBut we we found a local place to play, and it was a lot of fun. And I was\n\n42\n00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:29.280\nhooked. I was hooked.\n\n43\n00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:34.490\nAnd you know, you play Larry Fitzgerald. He's, you know, a Hall of Fame NFL\n\n44\n00:02:34.490 --> 00:02:36.080\nfootball player. Great\n\n45\n00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:43.230\nto receiver. Who won? Well, I convinced him that being 20 years older and about\n\n46\n00:02:43.230 --> 00:02:44.320\nsix inches shorter\n\n47\n00:02:44.320 --> 00:02:49.120\nwas an advantage. And I told him that, you know, he'd have to wait until I was\n\n48\n00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:50.400\n80 to beat me. And\n\n49\n00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:53.280\nI've been playing a lot more since then. So I had to revise that to 85.\n\n50\n00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:59.470\nYou have been playing a lot more and you only started a few years ago, and you\n\n51\n00:02:59.470 --> 00:03:00.720\n're the national\n\n52\n00:03:00.720 --> 00:03:06.160\nover 60 champion. And now you're playing on the senior pro tour. Doug, I mean,\n\n53\n00:03:06.160 --> 00:03:06.880\nhow did you get\n\n54\n00:03:06.880 --> 00:03:10.280\nso good at pickleball so fast? Because that's it. That's a heck of an\n\n55\n00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:12.320\naccomplishment. I really\n\n56\n00:03:12.320 --> 00:03:17.060\ndon't know too many national champions of anything. I played a lot of tennis\n\n57\n00:03:17.060 --> 00:03:18.080\ngrowing up. Regrettably,\n\n58\n00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.100\nI never played golf growing up, but I played a lot of tennis growing up. And\n\n59\n00:03:21.100 --> 00:03:22.000\nthat's that's certainly\n\n60\n00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:26.850\nbeen a huge head start. The senior pro level is is is is is a different level\n\n61\n00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:28.080\nbecause that's 50\n\n62\n00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.800\nand over. So I'm spotting some of these guys 10 years. And the the better\n\n63\n00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:33.680\nplayers did play\n\n64\n00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:38.240\nprofessional tennis. I actually my my first pro tournament. I I was able to win\n\n65\n00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:39.040\nmy first round\n\n66\n00:03:39.040 --> 00:03:41.510\nmatch. And I played number one in the world in my second round. And\n\n67\n00:03:41.510 --> 00:03:42.960\nunfortunately, the better player\n\n68\n00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:48.630\nwon. He's about a six foot three Swedish former tennis pro. And he got the\n\n69\n00:03:48.630 --> 00:03:50.160\nbetter me. But I do\n\n70\n00:03:50.160 --> 00:03:54.510\nwant another crack at him. Now I know I understand you practice with Yvonne\n\n71\n00:03:54.510 --> 00:03:55.840\nLindell, who is ranked\n\n72\n00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:59.610\nnumber one in the world. You know, what do you learn about leadership just\n\n73\n00:03:59.610 --> 00:04:00.800\nhanging with a guy like\n\n74\n00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:07.040\nthat? You know, he it's interesting because his persona, he's so fun to be\n\n75\n00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:10.000\naround. He talks huge\n\n76\n00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:16.970\ntrash. And it's his persona is so different than his his aura from from 40\n\n77\n00:04:16.970 --> 00:04:18.720\nyears ago, where he was\n\n78\n00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:24.400\nthis, you know, Czechoslovakian machine, who I think a revolutionized fitness,\n\n79\n00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:25.440\nreally introduced\n\n80\n00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:31.550\nfitness to tennis. He revolutionized inside out forehand. And this is a guy who\n\n81\n00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:32.640\n, you know, he lost\n\n82\n00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:38.410\na very tough match in five sets in a major. And he said to himself then that he\n\n83\n00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:39.360\nwill never lose\n\n84\n00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:46.160\nagain based on not being being fit. And he totally, you know, up his game,\n\n85\n00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:47.680\nthere are people that\n\n86\n00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:57.030\narguably had more natural talent than he did his just his will to increase his\n\n87\n00:04:57.030 --> 00:04:57.360\nhis his\n\n88\n00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:04.070\ncompetitiveness, his his fire. He was just so prepared for matches. And he\n\n89\n00:05:04.070 --> 00:05:04.880\nreally didn't\n\n90\n00:05:04.880 --> 00:05:10.230\nleave anything to chance. So he he set the bar incredibly high. After we played\n\n91\n00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:10.960\nfor the pickle\n\n92\n00:05:10.960 --> 00:05:14.660\noff for the first time, I went home and I watched some of his highlights on\n\n93\n00:05:14.660 --> 00:05:16.000\nYouTube from 40 years\n\n94\n00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:22.320\nago. And my God, he was he was awesome. He was so fluid and strong. You know,\n\n95\n00:05:22.320 --> 00:05:22.960\none of the things\n\n96\n00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:27.390\nthat that you know, I've always admired about you, Doug, is that you stay fit.\n\n97\n00:05:27.390 --> 00:05:28.080\nI mean, you're\n\n98\n00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:33.660\nextremely fit. How do you think just being in shape really impacted the way you\n\n99\n00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:34.720\nbrought yourself\n\n100\n00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:41.020\nto work? Yeah, I think that it I think it matters. I've always, I guess, since\n\n101\n00:05:41.020 --> 00:05:42.640\nI've started, you know,\n\n102\n00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:49.280\nplayed sports early, being in shape was was important. There are probably some\n\n103\n00:05:49.280 --> 00:05:49.680\npeople\n\n104\n00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:54.080\nearly in my career who would have viewed working at Seneca as a contact sport,\n\n105\n00:05:54.080 --> 00:05:55.520\nbut it's physical. And\n\n106\n00:05:55.520 --> 00:06:02.020\nI think that you you can't perform mentally unless you're you're physically fit\n\n107\n00:06:02.020 --> 00:06:03.040\n. It's interesting.\n\n108\n00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:07.350\nTheir chess players, Bobby Fisher was famous for for for physically training\n\n109\n00:06:07.350 --> 00:06:08.480\nfor chess. I mean,\n\n110\n00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:15.530\nyou you you you burn a lot of calories thinking and you can't really you can't\n\n111\n00:06:15.530 --> 00:06:17.120\nperform at your\n\n112\n00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:22.010\nhighest without without being in shape. I find it a high if I if I'm not\n\n113\n00:06:22.010 --> 00:06:23.920\nsweating and exerting myself\n\n114\n00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:30.550\nand and getting my dorphins going, it's a frustrating day. Now Doug, you've\n\n115\n00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:32.080\ngone on and you've taken\n\n116\n00:06:32.080 --> 00:06:35.450\nthis passion that you have for pickleball and you've actually bought a\n\n117\n00:06:35.450 --> 00:06:37.040\nprofessional team that the\n\n118\n00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:42.660\nArizona Drive, you know, being the really smart investor that you are, what\n\n119\n00:06:42.660 --> 00:06:44.480\nmakes you think buying\n\n120\n00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:50.660\na pickleball team will end up being a big plus on the investment side. Yeah, I\n\n121\n00:06:50.660 --> 00:06:51.600\nmean, we I certainly\n\n122\n00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.220\nwasn't in the market to buy a professional pickleball team. The opportunity\n\n123\n00:06:55.220 --> 00:06:57.680\nsurfaced. I think that,\n\n124\n00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:03.350\nlook, I think pickleball is unique in that it is so accessible. Any age, any\n\n125\n00:07:03.350 --> 00:07:05.040\nability in 10 minutes,\n\n126\n00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:09.130\nyou can have a lot of fun playing pickleball and that you can't say that about\n\n127\n00:07:09.130 --> 00:07:09.280\nyou know,\n\n128\n00:07:09.280 --> 00:07:14.520\ncertainly can't say that about tennis. It's not the case in golf for sure. So,\n\n129\n00:07:14.520 --> 00:07:14.960\nyou know, there's a\n\n130\n00:07:14.960 --> 00:07:17.890\nsaying that there's no there's no politics on a pickleball court. You've got\n\n131\n00:07:17.890 --> 00:07:18.880\npeople all walks of\n\n132\n00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:23.520\nlife. I mean, there's no barrier. You've spent a $75 on a paddle and you have a\n\n133\n00:07:23.520 --> 00:07:24.560\npair of sneakers,\n\n134\n00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:30.030\nyou can play and there you can't get a court in a lot of places now. There's\n\n135\n00:07:30.030 --> 00:07:30.880\nyou know, the you\n\n136\n00:07:30.880 --> 00:07:33.680\nknow, the difference between a tennis court and a pickleball court. No, it's\n\n137\n00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:34.960\nthat the tennis court\n\n138\n00:07:34.960 --> 00:07:39.790\nthe one with no one on it. And it's it's because it's I don't think look, COVID\n\n139\n00:07:39.790 --> 00:07:40.240\ncertainly was an\n\n140\n00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:44.700\naccelerant, but I don't think it's a fad. I think that there are so many social\n\n141\n00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:45.920\nbenefits to it. There's\n\n142\n00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:51.810\nphysical benefits to it. There's a huge element of loneliness that that pervade\n\n143\n00:07:51.810 --> 00:07:53.120\nsenior citizens.\n\n144\n00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:58.580\nAnd this has given people a real way to to find something to do. I think it's\n\n145\n00:07:58.580 --> 00:07:59.920\ngoing to be an Olympic\n\n146\n00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:05.780\nsport. I think the question in terms of the major league pickleball, the real\n\n147\n00:08:05.780 --> 00:08:07.760\nquestion is, you know,\n\n148\n00:08:07.760 --> 00:08:13.280\nis it televisable? Is there a TV audience for it? And I think that, you know,\n\n149\n00:08:13.280 --> 00:08:14.320\nthe participation\n\n150\n00:08:14.320 --> 00:08:19.530\nlevels are crazy and continue to be exponential. And I don't see how there can\n\n151\n00:08:19.530 --> 00:08:20.400\nbe that big a\n\n152\n00:08:20.400 --> 00:08:26.520\ndisconnect between the viewing audience and the and the participation level. I\n\n153\n00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:28.640\nmean, look ESPN has\n\n154\n00:08:28.640 --> 00:08:33.430\ncornhole and darts on TV. I think that there's there will be people who want to\n\n155\n00:08:33.430 --> 00:08:34.160\nwant to see the\n\n156\n00:08:34.160 --> 00:08:37.790\ngame played by the best in the world at the same game that they're playing. So\n\n157\n00:08:37.790 --> 00:08:39.280\nI'm bullish on it.\n\n158\n00:08:39.280 --> 00:08:45.370\nI'm bullish. You know, not surprisingly, you've been a leader in everything\n\n159\n00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:46.480\nthat you've done. And\n\n160\n00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:52.900\nand I know as a as a team owner, you were instrumental in bringing a dispute\n\n161\n00:08:52.900 --> 00:08:54.800\nbetween the professional\n\n162\n00:08:54.800 --> 00:09:00.400\npickleball association, which was one side. And the other side was the major\n\n163\n00:09:00.400 --> 00:09:01.840\nleague pickleball\n\n164\n00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:06.350\norganization. And you stepped in and you bought you brought both those teams\n\n165\n00:09:06.350 --> 00:09:07.360\ntogether when the\n\n166\n00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:12.320\nmerger was starting to fall apart. You know, why do you think, you know, big\n\n167\n00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:13.920\ndeals fall apart? And\n\n168\n00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:18.880\nthen what do you as a leader do to bring them back together? Yeah, so this was\n\n169\n00:09:18.880 --> 00:09:20.880\nthis really was a\n\n170\n00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:25.720\non some level of case study, a Harvard Business School case study that that\n\n171\n00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:26.320\narguably should be\n\n172\n00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:32.840\non Saturday Night Live as well. This really was the the epitome of someone\n\n173\n00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:34.800\nfalling prey to ego in a\n\n174\n00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:39.940\nmotion. The founder of Major League pickleball, who clearly had some very good\n\n175\n00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:41.120\nideas and who\n\n176\n00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:46.840\ngalvanized this sport felt that he was being slighted and broke off the deal\n\n177\n00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:47.840\nand tried and\n\n178\n00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:53.520\ncontracted about 100 players for $100 million with three year contracts. And he\n\n179\n00:09:53.520 --> 00:09:54.080\nonly had a million\n\n180\n00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.810\ndollars in the bank. So he ironically, he felt that he was putting the other\n\n181\n00:09:57.810 --> 00:09:59.040\nside out of business\n\n182\n00:09:59.040 --> 00:10:05.680\nand he put himself out of business. And I think that the lesson really is that\n\n183\n00:10:05.680 --> 00:10:06.640\nego and emotion need\n\n184\n00:10:06.640 --> 00:10:13.570\nto be checked. And if you're not objective and rational, and you let your\n\n185\n00:10:13.570 --> 00:10:15.760\nemotions dictate you\n\n186\n00:10:15.760 --> 00:10:20.290\nyour actions, you're going to have a problem. We were able to bring sides\n\n187\n00:10:20.290 --> 00:10:21.920\ntogether, the two sides\n\n188\n00:10:21.920 --> 00:10:29.250\ntogether after he resigned and resurrect something. But the damage is still\n\n189\n00:10:29.250 --> 00:10:31.680\nreal because they had\n\n190\n00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:38.590\nfinancially really burdened the new co so so significantly that we've got a lot\n\n191\n00:10:38.590 --> 00:10:38.880\nof\n\n192\n00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:47.360\na lot of wood to chop to get ourselves back on foot. But ego and emotion are\n\n193\n00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.200\nthat anyone can\n\n194\n00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:54.880\nbe vulnerable to it. You're right about that. And I want to shift gears for a\n\n195\n00:10:54.880 --> 00:10:56.000\nminute. And I want\n\n196\n00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.300\nto take you back. In your case, it's way back because I'm going to take you\n\n197\n00:10:59.300 --> 00:11:00.640\nback to your childhood.\n\n198\n00:11:00.640 --> 00:11:05.420\nWhat's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you\n\n199\n00:11:05.420 --> 00:11:06.320\nare today?\n\n200\n00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:12.340\nI think there's probably a couple of things. I mean, my father, my father's was\n\n201\n00:11:12.340 --> 00:11:12.560\nvery\n\n202\n00:11:12.560 --> 00:11:18.930\nfamily oriented and very spanced, very sports oriented and was a huge Green Bay\n\n203\n00:11:18.930 --> 00:11:19.440\nPackers fan.\n\n204\n00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:25.840\nSo there was a Lombardi ethos that permeated our household. And that was very\n\n205\n00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:27.600\nreal in many\n\n206\n00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:32.030\ndifferent ways. My father was not career oriented. And ironically, that\n\n207\n00:11:32.030 --> 00:11:33.680\nprobably fueled some of my\n\n208\n00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:40.320\ncareer passion. Money was certainly a sensitivity at times. I remember that\n\n209\n00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:41.840\nwhen I went to the dentist\n\n210\n00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:47.040\nand was told that I needed braces, my father said that we weren't, he wasn't\n\n211\n00:11:47.040 --> 00:11:47.440\ngoing to get me\n\n212\n00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:51.410\nbraces because I was going to get my teeth knocked out anyway. He proved to be\n\n213\n00:11:51.410 --> 00:11:53.120\nright. But I think that\n\n214\n00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:57.650\nthere was a Lombardi ethos that was instilled in me. And I think that through\n\n215\n00:11:57.650 --> 00:11:58.160\nmy mother,\n\n216\n00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:08.320\nI was very, my mother's father had Parkinson's. And that was a very raw, bitter\n\n217\n00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:09.840\npill for me,\n\n218\n00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:16.000\ngrowing up because I saw the impact it had on her. And I remember asking her\n\n219\n00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:16.720\nall questions,\n\n220\n00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:25.560\nall sorts of questions about him. He had tremors and he had trouble and he st\n\n221\n00:12:25.560 --> 00:12:25.680\nuttered.\n\n222\n00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:30.640\nHe had trouble articulating things. But mentally, he was fine. But I was very\n\n223\n00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:31.680\nintrigued with him.\n\n224\n00:12:31.680 --> 00:12:36.880\nAnd my mother had shared that he had started a retail clothing business in\n\n225\n00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:38.800\nOklahoma and took the\n\n226\n00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:43.100\nvery bold step in the early 60s of allowing African Americans to shop at his\n\n227\n00:12:43.100 --> 00:12:45.040\nstores. And there were\n\n228\n00:12:45.040 --> 00:12:49.050\npeople protesting and picketing outside. And he was fine with that. And he felt\n\n229\n00:12:49.050 --> 00:12:51.280\nthat he was going\n\n230\n00:12:51.280 --> 00:12:54.870\nto stay true to himself and do the right thing and see how things played out.\n\n231\n00:12:54.870 --> 00:12:55.600\nAnd I remember,\n\n232\n00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:59.630\nshe showed me an article that was written in the local paper about it. And that\n\n233\n00:12:59.630 --> 00:13:00.640\nhad big impact on\n\n234\n00:13:00.640 --> 00:13:05.450\nme. And the other thing that I remember is that when my mother's older brother\n\n235\n00:13:05.450 --> 00:13:07.360\nwent to New York\n\n236\n00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:12.340\nafter college leaving Oklahoma, my grandfather said to him, just whatever you\n\n237\n00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:13.120\ndo, don't find\n\n238\n00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:17.570\nyourself working for your secretary or your accountant. Meaning, don't live a\n\n239\n00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:18.960\ndouble life\n\n240\n00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:25.280\nand don't take shortcuts. And I think that this was an okey from Muskogee\n\n241\n00:13:25.280 --> 00:13:26.960\ngiving very\n\n242\n00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:34.260\nsharing real uncommon sense views. And it definitely is something that\n\n243\n00:13:34.260 --> 00:13:36.320\nregistered with me.\n\n244\n00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:44.000\nIt's the great twain line that tell the truth. It's easier to remember. And I\n\n245\n00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:44.640\nthink that that's\n\n246\n00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:51.760\nguided me through my journey in the hedge fund business in terms of being true\n\n247\n00:13:51.760 --> 00:13:52.320\nto your word\n\n248\n00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:58.080\nand having people being able to trust with you. They may disagree with you, but\n\n249\n00:13:58.080 --> 00:13:58.880\nthey at least\n\n250\n00:13:58.880 --> 00:14:05.760\ntrust you. You played hockey in college and you were one of Dartmouth's leading\n\n251\n00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:06.320\nscores.\n\n252\n00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:12.420\nWhat's the lesson that you learned then that you've carried off the ice and\n\n253\n00:14:12.420 --> 00:14:13.600\nreally impacted the way\n\n254\n00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:20.670\nhow you go to work? Yeah, I think, look, sports offer so much. And I think that\n\n255\n00:14:20.670 --> 00:14:21.280\n, again, from the\n\n256\n00:14:21.280 --> 00:14:28.720\nLombardi cradle I was born in to sort of chasing this dream of playing division\n\n257\n00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:29.840\non college hockey\n\n258\n00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:35.450\nin high school. Dartmouth was third in the nation. They lost back to back years\n\n259\n00:14:35.450 --> 00:14:37.200\nto North Dakota.\n\n260\n00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:43.360\nAnd I remember when I made the team as a freshman how incredible that feeling\n\n261\n00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:43.680\nwas.\n\n262\n00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:51.600\nAnd there was just an incredible sense of mission and of camaraderie. I recall\n\n263\n00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:52.160\none instant in\n\n264\n00:14:52.160 --> 00:14:58.380\njunior year when we had a road trip. And I think we were tied against clerks\n\n265\n00:14:58.380 --> 00:14:59.040\nand going into the\n\n266\n00:14:59.040 --> 00:15:03.140\nthird period. And they blew us out in the third period. And we drove back to\n\n267\n00:15:03.140 --> 00:15:04.240\nHanover that night,\n\n268\n00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:07.460\nby the way, we had classes the next day. And we got back to Hanover about one\n\n269\n00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:08.640\nin the morning.\n\n270\n00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:14.830\nAnd as we were pulling into Hanover, the coach told us that we should meet in\n\n271\n00:15:14.830 --> 00:15:15.440\nthe locker room\n\n272\n00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.290\nthat put our equipment on, which obviously was soaking wet. And he skated us\n\n273\n00:15:20.290 --> 00:15:21.520\nfor about 45\n\n274\n00:15:21.520 --> 00:15:27.600\nminutes without lights on in the rink. There were some moonlight you could see,\n\n275\n00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:28.240\nbut there were no\n\n276\n00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.790\npucks. It was just whistles. And he skated us into the ground. And it's just\n\n277\n00:15:32.790 --> 00:15:36.880\nindelibly instilled in me,\n\n278\n00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:42.610\ndiscipline, you know, discipline versus regret. And that you often have this\n\n279\n00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:42.880\nchoice\n\n280\n00:15:42.880 --> 00:15:50.160\nbetween discipline and regret. And I think that the memories, the friendships,\n\n281\n00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:56.400\nthe pursuit, the challenging yourself to see how good you could be. These are\n\n282\n00:15:56.400 --> 00:15:56.960\nthings that\n\n283\n00:15:57.920 --> 00:16:02.480\ndefinitely I've taken from hockey to everything I do.\n\n284\n00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:08.880\nYou were a hockey player that you were also a philosophy major, which I found\n\n285\n00:16:08.880 --> 00:16:09.600\nto be a little\n\n286\n00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:16.230\nbit surprising. And you end up starting your own hedge fund. Was there a\n\n287\n00:16:16.230 --> 00:16:17.280\nspecific leader\n\n288\n00:16:17.280 --> 00:16:22.600\ndug that really impacted you in the investment world that shaped your\n\n289\n00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.760\nexperience and where you\n\n290\n00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:30.350\nwanted to head? You know, I look, when I when I graduated from Dartmouth\n\n291\n00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:30.800\nwithout\n\n292\n00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:35.480\nincidentally taking an economics class or math class, you know, I didn't do\n\n293\n00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:36.480\ncorporate recruiting,\n\n294\n00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:41.150\nI was lucky to get a part-time job as I thought I was going to go to law school\n\n295\n00:16:41.150 --> 00:16:42.160\nthe next fall.\n\n296\n00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:50.160\nAnd I wound up getting a an informational interview at a place called Jamie,\n\n297\n00:16:50.160 --> 00:16:51.040\nwho was an acronym for\n\n298\n00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:56.470\nJohn A. Mulhurne, Izzy Englander. And I went over there and it was, I was\n\n299\n00:16:56.470 --> 00:16:57.760\ninterested in stocks,\n\n300\n00:16:57.760 --> 00:17:00.160\nby the way, I didn't know the difference when I graduated Dartmouth from\n\n301\n00:17:00.160 --> 00:17:00.960\nbetween a stock and a\n\n302\n00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:08.160\nbond. But, but I, I, I at least had at that point some at least sexy sense of\n\n303\n00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.280\nof being a\n\n304\n00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:13.700\nball in the stock market versus the bond market. But I went over there, I was\n\n305\n00:17:13.700 --> 00:17:14.880\nchatting with Izzy\n\n306\n00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:19.840\nas it turned out they had just fired somebody, which wasn't uncommon. Jamie and\n\n307\n00:17:19.840 --> 00:17:20.400\nJohn Mulhurne\n\n308\n00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:28.600\nin particular was a was a very tough Darwinian shop where he was just\n\n309\n00:17:28.600 --> 00:17:30.640\nincredibly impatient and\n\n310\n00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:37.290\nand brilliant. And as I learned more, I was intrigued. Again, it wasn't the\n\n311\n00:17:37.290 --> 00:17:37.760\narea that I\n\n312\n00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:42.750\nwanted to be in, but as I learned more, it was, I realized that, that, that\n\n313\n00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:44.160\nJohn's brilliance\n\n314\n00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:50.340\nwas, was attracting me. Izzy shared that, you know, I'd have to come back and,\n\n315\n00:17:50.340 --> 00:17:51.600\nand, and meet John.\n\n316\n00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:56.600\nSo I did a bunch of homework learning about John, you know, you know, he, he\n\n317\n00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:57.600\nwas just viewed as,\n\n318\n00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:02.240\nhe was so fertile and imaginative. And, and, and again, his upbringing was not\n\n319\n00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:02.880\nthe traditional\n\n320\n00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:08.230\nWall Street upbringing. Remember this, this great story where he, for whatever\n\n321\n00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:09.200\nreason, got very\n\n322\n00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:15.580\nbullish on copper and made the insight or learned that there were about 150\n\n323\n00:18:15.580 --> 00:18:17.120\npennies in a pound of\n\n324\n00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:21.810\ncopper and copper was trading at a, I don't know, a dollar 20 or something, a\n\n325\n00:18:21.810 --> 00:18:23.360\npound. And John,\n\n326\n00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:28.480\nwho didn't do anything in a small way, you know, with the, with that insight\n\n327\n00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.080\nstarted hoarding pennies.\n\n328\n00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:36.400\nAnd he was paying people to go to McDonald's and banks and anywhere he could go\n\n329\n00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:37.120\nand collect\n\n330\n00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:41.770\nand, and get pennies. And he had, he had vaults in New York where he was\n\n331\n00:18:41.770 --> 00:18:43.280\nstoring pennies. And sure\n\n332\n00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:48.680\nenough, and he may have added to it, but there was a penny shortage scarcity.\n\n333\n00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:49.600\nAnd the penny,\n\n334\n00:18:49.600 --> 00:18:54.040\nget, penny went, the copper went to over $2 a pound. So his pennies became\n\n335\n00:18:54.040 --> 00:18:55.040\nworth a lot more as\n\n336\n00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:59.440\ncopper than they were as pennies. And as he was going to cash in on the trade,\n\n337\n00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.720\nthe FBI got involved\n\n338\n00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.560\nbecause you can't tamper with currency. But the point was that this is a guy\n\n339\n00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:05.520\nwho was just so\n\n340\n00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:12.350\nimaginative and so free thinking. And I wanted to do anything I could to work\n\n341\n00:19:12.350 --> 00:19:14.560\nthere. And it was an\n\n342\n00:19:14.560 --> 00:19:20.860\nincredible, you know, incredible opportunity for me to be around someone like\n\n343\n00:19:20.860 --> 00:19:22.400\nthat. It didn't last\n\n344\n00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:28.340\nlong because they're right after I started the Ivan Boste scandal unfolded.\n\n345\n00:19:28.340 --> 00:19:29.600\nJohn wound up being\n\n346\n00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:33.180\nimplicated in that he challenged the government. He's the only person that the\n\n347\n00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:33.840\nchallenge the\n\n348\n00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:38.610\ngovernment, he was exonerated on all counts, but he was forced to close the\n\n349\n00:19:38.610 --> 00:19:40.400\nfund. But his impact\n\n350\n00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:46.360\non me was, was huge. So, you know, John could smell money. And do you think\n\n351\n00:19:46.360 --> 00:19:48.000\nthat transferred over to\n\n352\n00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:52.760\nyou? Doug, do you think people would say that you, you, you smell money in the\n\n353\n00:19:52.760 --> 00:19:53.840\nsense of knowing,\n\n354\n00:19:53.840 --> 00:19:59.130\nknowing how to make it and how to go after it? I think you start to get a sense\n\n355\n00:19:59.130 --> 00:19:59.600\nof what's in\n\n356\n00:19:59.600 --> 00:20:04.560\nyour mating pool and where and ideas that you think smell like money making\n\n357\n00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:05.600\nopportunities. Yeah,\n\n358\n00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:09.480\nand you know, on some level, there's a part of our business, which is making\n\n359\n00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.160\nanalogies and, you know,\n\n360\n00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:17.460\nhaving seen this this movie before, and things don't repeat, but they do rhyme.\n\n361\n00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:18.640\nAnd I think that,\n\n362\n00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:24.560\nlook, he there's definitely times in my career where I did think about John,\n\n363\n00:20:24.560 --> 00:20:25.760\nwhere I did attempt\n\n364\n00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:29.850\nto think about how John would think about something and try not to be confined\n\n365\n00:20:29.850 --> 00:20:32.640\nby, by dogma and by,\n\n366\n00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.860\nyou know, trying to look at things fresh. Hey, Doug, you said something that\n\n367\n00:20:35.860 --> 00:20:36.320\nwas really\n\n368\n00:20:36.320 --> 00:20:40.220\ninteresting to me there. You said things don't repeat, but they do rhyme. Say\n\n369\n00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:40.560\nmore.\n\n370\n00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:47.160\nWell, again, I guess I'm quoting Mark Twain, but, um, you know, I think that,\n\n371\n00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:47.680\nuh, whether it's\n\n372\n00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:51.940\ninvestments or history, uh, you know, the exact same situation doesn't\n\n373\n00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:53.520\nnecessarily happen again,\n\n374\n00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:58.480\nbut something but a variation of it does. Yeah, the most four dangerous words\n\n375\n00:20:58.480 --> 00:20:58.560\nin\n\n376\n00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:02.560\ninvesting are this time it's different. Uh, and there's always an explanation\n\n377\n00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:03.520\nas to why this time\n\n378\n00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:09.270\nit's different, but quite often it isn't. And, uh, you know, these distinctions\n\n379\n00:21:09.270 --> 00:21:10.240\nare what, uh,\n\n380\n00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:17.040\nwhat it's all about. Uh, so comparing and contrasting making analogies is, uh,\n\n381\n00:21:17.040 --> 00:21:18.240\non some level, that's,\n\n382\n00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.330\nthat's what it's about. Hey, everyone. It's Kula. We'll get back to the\n\n383\n00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:23.760\ninterview in just a second.\n\n384\n00:21:23.760 --> 00:21:27.830\nBefore we do though, have a question for you. Have you downloaded the how\n\n385\n00:21:27.830 --> 00:21:29.280\nleaders lead app\n\n386\n00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:34.380\non your iPhone? If you haven't take 20 seconds right now, go to the app store,\n\n387\n00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:35.280\nsearch for how leaders\n\n388\n00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:39.990\nlead and download the how leaders lead app in the app every day. You'll get a\n\n389\n00:21:39.990 --> 00:21:41.120\ntwo minute video\n\n390\n00:21:41.120 --> 00:21:44.240\nthat'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our\n\n391\n00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:45.440\npodcast to inspire\n\n392\n00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:49.140\nyou and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work\n\n393\n00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:50.240\nday. So go to the app\n\n394\n00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.790\nstore, start town leaders lead, download the how leaders lead app and start\n\n395\n00:21:54.790 --> 00:21:55.920\nyour day every day\n\n396\n00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.610\nwith two minutes of leadership wisdom. It'll take 20 seconds. Go to the app\n\n397\n00:21:59.610 --> 00:22:01.280\nstore, download the app,\n\n398\n00:22:01.280 --> 00:22:05.330\nand you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight\n\n399\n00:22:05.330 --> 00:22:06.560\nfrom how leaders lead.\n\n400\n00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:12.800\nSo you end up starting your own hedge fund. You call it Seneca. Why the name\n\n401\n00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:13.840\nSeneca? Well,\n\n402\n00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:20.800\nso in college, I took a I was taking a philosophy class and the professor\n\n403\n00:22:20.800 --> 00:22:22.400\nmentioned that if you ever\n\n404\n00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:26.810\nget a chance to read something by Seneca, you should. Seneca wasn't in the in\n\n405\n00:22:26.810 --> 00:22:27.680\nthe syllabus, but I\n\n406\n00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:33.800\nstumbled on a shortly thereafter, I stumbled on a book by Seneca that was as a\n\n407\n00:22:33.800 --> 00:22:34.560\ncollection of short\n\n408\n00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:38.780\nstories, but the the cover story, the cover of the title was on the shortness\n\n409\n00:22:38.780 --> 00:22:41.760\nof life. And I read\n\n410\n00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:46.330\nit, it's about 30 pages. It's it was and is the best 30 pages I've ever read.\n\n411\n00:22:46.330 --> 00:22:48.720\nAnd it really is just\n\n412\n00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:55.670\nabout how people squander time, you know, whether it's chasing materialism,\n\n413\n00:22:55.670 --> 00:22:57.200\nsocial climbing,\n\n414\n00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:04.780\nthey they they they they trade what they have such little of time for to to\n\n415\n00:23:04.780 --> 00:23:05.600\nincrease\n\n416\n00:23:06.320 --> 00:23:14.540\nform over content. And the book was the essay was just so powerful in terms of,\n\n417\n00:23:14.540 --> 00:23:15.680\nyou know,\n\n418\n00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:21.360\nthe importance of using your time. So it was natural that that when I started\n\n419\n00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:22.560\nthe fund to call\n\n420\n00:23:22.560 --> 00:23:26.290\nit Seneca, I'd like you to give us a little bit of insight on the kind of\n\n421\n00:23:26.290 --> 00:23:27.680\ninvesting you did,\n\n422\n00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:32.400\nbecause it was a lot of it was based on timing. I know all investments are, but\n\n423\n00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:33.200\nyou know,\n\n424\n00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:38.400\ngive us an example of the of one of your best deals and and how it sort of\n\n425\n00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:45.440\ntypifies what made you work. Our mandate was event driven investing. And when\n\n426\n00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:46.560\nwe started,\n\n427\n00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:53.200\nwhen I started on my own, I guess it was 1990, Seneca was a successor fund to a\n\n428\n00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:53.760\ndepartment I\n\n429\n00:23:53.760 --> 00:23:59.920\nhad started. So Seneca formally started in '96, but it was a lot of Berger\n\n430\n00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:01.600\narbitrage,\n\n431\n00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:06.920\nrestructurings, recapitalizations, some bankruptcy. And it was really just\n\n432\n00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:08.480\nopportunistic investing where\n\n433\n00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:14.570\nit was bottoms up rather than top down. We weren't making macro calls on on\n\n434\n00:24:14.570 --> 00:24:16.240\ninterest rates or currency\n\n435\n00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:22.160\nor even the broad market. We were trying to identify situations where we felt\n\n436\n00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:23.200\nwe had an edge or an\n\n437\n00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:28.470\ninsight and where there was a pending event that was either might happen or\n\n438\n00:24:28.470 --> 00:24:29.760\nlikely to happen or\n\n439\n00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:35.440\nmight not happen. And was a reason why we thought that a security today would\n\n440\n00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.200\nbe priced differently\n\n441\n00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:44.200\nin the foreseeable future. And I think that being opportunistic was key because\n\n442\n00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:44.800\nover time,\n\n443\n00:24:44.800 --> 00:24:51.620\nage strategies get more competitive and you have to be flexible if not you\n\n444\n00:24:51.620 --> 00:24:54.240\nperish. I think that\n\n445\n00:24:56.560 --> 00:25:03.920\nthe one that comes quickest to my mind was one of the first ones because it was\n\n446\n00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:04.880\nso important to me\n\n447\n00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:14.170\nin terms of getting confidence. But in 1991, Office Depot agreed to merge with\n\n448\n00:25:14.170 --> 00:25:15.440\nOffice Club.\n\n449\n00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:21.580\nAnd it was a stock deal. There was a very big spread if you were to buy Office\n\n450\n00:25:21.580 --> 00:25:23.600\nClub, the target\n\n451\n00:25:23.600 --> 00:25:29.410\nand short Office Depot, you were locking in a very like a 30% unannualized\n\n452\n00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:30.240\nspread. And that's because\n\n453\n00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:35.220\nyou couldn't borrow Office Depot. It was very hard to borrow it. If you bought\n\n454\n00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:37.120\nOffice Club without\n\n455\n00:25:37.120 --> 00:25:41.030\nshorting Office Depot and Office Depot went down, you wouldn't make your spread\n\n456\n00:25:41.030 --> 00:25:43.200\n. And I was obsessed\n\n457\n00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:47.120\nwith this spread because it was so big. Obviously, you had to have some comfort\n\n458\n00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:48.240\nthat from an antitrust\n\n459\n00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:54.560\nperspective, they would get clearance. But we felt that they would. And as I\n\n460\n00:25:54.560 --> 00:25:56.400\nwas just\n\n461\n00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.880\nobsessing over this deal, again, this is in 1991, the ability on the internet\n\n462\n00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.320\nto access things was\n\n463\n00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:11.420\nmuch different. But I cold called a couple of the founders of Office Depot. And\n\n464\n00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:12.640\nI, after\n\n465\n00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:19.550\non some level harassing, he must have felt I was harassing. One of the co-found\n\n466\n00:26:19.550 --> 00:26:19.920\ners,\n\n467\n00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:27.680\nI got him to hear me out. And I offered to pay him some small percent of the\n\n468\n00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:28.880\nspread if I could\n\n469\n00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.800\nborrow his Office Depot stock, i.e., I would just be borrowing it for the deal.\n\n470\n00:26:32.800 --> 00:26:33.680\nWhen the deal closed,\n\n471\n00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:38.230\nI would return it to him. He would have no, there'd be no implications on him\n\n472\n00:26:38.230 --> 00:26:38.880\nas to what,\n\n473\n00:26:39.840 --> 00:26:45.470\nup down sideways, he was just going to make money. And it took some convincing.\n\n474\n00:26:45.470 --> 00:26:48.640\nAnd I was able to\n\n475\n00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:54.620\nborrow a lot of stock and therefore to lock in this spread and the deal closed.\n\n476\n00:26:54.620 --> 00:26:55.040\nAnd this was at\n\n477\n00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:59.570\nthe time a very, very big winner for us at a time where we were just starting\n\n478\n00:26:59.570 --> 00:27:00.960\nto prove ourselves.\n\n479\n00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:07.760\nAnd, you know, on some level, this was thinking outside the box a bit and\n\n480\n00:27:07.760 --> 00:27:08.640\ntrying and being creative.\n\n481\n00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:15.370\nAnd it's a deal I'll never forget. I'm friendly with that founder today and it\n\n482\n00:27:15.370 --> 00:27:16.240\nwas a great win.\n\n483\n00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:22.160\nYou said that it gave you confidence early on. You know, how long did it take\n\n484\n00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:22.640\nyou, Doug,\n\n485\n00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:28.080\nyou know, being in business to where you literally could say, in terms of\n\n486\n00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:29.120\nrunning your firm, that\n\n487\n00:27:29.120 --> 00:27:35.850\nyou were confident. The answer is a long time. I mean, look, I started, it's a\n\n488\n00:27:35.850 --> 00:27:36.480\ngood thing I didn't\n\n489\n00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:42.870\nknow how much I didn't know or I wouldn't have started the department. I\n\n490\n00:27:42.870 --> 00:27:44.560\nstarted. All I knew\n\n491\n00:27:44.560 --> 00:27:47.840\nup wasn't is that I wasn't going to make a bet that I couldn't afford to lose.\n\n492\n00:27:47.840 --> 00:27:49.520\nI think that fear\n\n493\n00:27:49.520 --> 00:27:56.040\nis a great motivator. And for those early years in particular, there was just a\n\n494\n00:27:56.040 --> 00:27:57.040\n, I didn't need an\n\n495\n00:27:57.040 --> 00:28:03.010\nalarm clock. I was in early. I don't, you know, I practically had a porta potty\n\n496\n00:28:03.010 --> 00:28:04.400\nat the desk. I was\n\n497\n00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.960\nafraid of leaving the desk. I don't think I went out for lunch for the first\n\n498\n00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:08.320\ndecade.\n\n499\n00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:13.840\nThat's a lot of turkey sandwiches. But I think that, you know, what Andy Groves\n\n500\n00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:14.960\n, you know, famous\n\n501\n00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:19.330\nsaying that, you know, only the paranoid survive, you know, I think that you\n\n502\n00:28:19.330 --> 00:28:20.880\nhave to have that element\n\n503\n00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:26.510\nof fear. The market, you know, doesn't care if you own something. And look, I\n\n504\n00:28:26.510 --> 00:28:28.080\nwas just determined\n\n505\n00:28:28.080 --> 00:28:35.040\nto survive. And over time, things unfolded well, but it was, it was not linear.\n\n506\n00:28:35.040 --> 00:28:37.440\nAnd it was,\n\n507\n00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:43.020\nit looked, it was a an all in commitment. That's for sure. And, you know, one\n\n508\n00:28:43.020 --> 00:28:43.840\nof the things that I\n\n509\n00:28:43.840 --> 00:28:47.750\nwas interested when I was doing my research is that, you know, in an industry\n\n510\n00:28:47.750 --> 00:28:48.560\nwhere, you know,\n\n511\n00:28:48.560 --> 00:28:53.120\npeople just moved from one company to another company, you were able to keep\n\n512\n00:28:53.120 --> 00:28:53.840\nyour people for a\n\n513\n00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:57.920\nlong time. You had to staff the state with you over 15 years. I mean, you know,\n\n514\n00:28:57.920 --> 00:28:58.560\nwhat was your\n\n515\n00:28:58.560 --> 00:29:02.290\nkey there? Because you know, you're, you're an intense summit. You got sharp\n\n516\n00:29:02.290 --> 00:29:03.440\nelbows. I mean,\n\n517\n00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:06.980\nyou know, how do you keep these people? Look, I think people realize that I was\n\n518\n00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:07.440\nall in,\n\n519\n00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:12.940\nthat I wasn't asking anything of anyone and that I wasn't demanding of myself.\n\n520\n00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:14.080\nAnd I think that's a\n\n521\n00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:22.080\nreally got to be a premise. I think that they, I think that there was a purity\n\n522\n00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:23.040\nto what we did,\n\n523\n00:29:23.840 --> 00:29:27.360\nyou know, we didn't have meetings. There were times that we would meet, but\n\n524\n00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:31.390\na anyone could come to that meeting. Look, I wanted to know what the secretary\n\n525\n00:29:31.390 --> 00:29:32.560\nthought. There was\n\n526\n00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:38.570\ntransparency in our, you know, everyone got access to the positions. There was\n\n527\n00:29:38.570 --> 00:29:39.440\na culture of\n\n528\n00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:48.160\nno bureaucracy and of really my goal was that I didn't have a sense of\n\n529\n00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:54.160\npride of authorship. It didn't matter if it was my idea or not. I wanted the\n\n530\n00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:55.280\nbest, most compelling,\n\n531\n00:29:55.280 --> 00:30:02.480\nmost rational ideas in our positions. And I think that that was refreshing to\n\n532\n00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.520\npeople. And I think\n\n533\n00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:07.740\npeople believed that, that I was being objective. They may at times have\n\n534\n00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:09.360\ndisagreed with me, but I\n\n535\n00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:15.300\ndon't think they questioned my motives. And I think that the, the lack of, you\n\n536\n00:30:15.300 --> 00:30:15.760\nknow, there was no\n\n537\n00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:19.940\nform over content. We didn't have committees. There's that great line that,\n\n538\n00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:21.680\nthat a camel is a horse\n\n539\n00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:25.440\nmade by committee. I mean, I think that, you know, when you start getting\n\n540\n00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.520\ncommittees and people,\n\n541\n00:30:29.520 --> 00:30:38.760\nyou know, for responsible for other people, there's, there's a lot that goes aw\n\n542\n00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:39.920\nry and that, that,\n\n543\n00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:45.630\nis that undermines what you're trying to create. So I think that there was just\n\n544\n00:30:45.630 --> 00:30:47.280\na big belief in\n\n545\n00:30:47.280 --> 00:30:52.880\nour, in our process and in ourselves. And I think that that's why people did\n\n546\n00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:57.120\nTurndown Ken Griffin, who was trying to hire my people for years.\n\n547\n00:30:57.120 --> 00:31:03.500\nYou know, one of your great accomplishments in addition to building a fantastic\n\n548\n00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:04.720\nfirm is that\n\n549\n00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:09.790\nyou started Wall Street's first investment conference, you know, which is, it\n\n550\n00:31:09.790 --> 00:31:10.160\nbecame\n\n551\n00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:15.130\nrenowned as the, as Wall Street's Woodstock, you know, everybody wanted to come\n\n552\n00:31:15.130 --> 00:31:15.840\nto it, you know,\n\n553\n00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:20.310\nand it's, it was called the Sone Conference, you know, tell us a story behind\n\n554\n00:31:20.310 --> 00:31:21.040\nthat.\n\n555\n00:31:21.040 --> 00:31:27.520\nI worked with Ira Sone in the early, early 90s. I guess he was in his late 20s.\n\n556\n00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:28.720\nHe was\n\n557\n00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:35.260\nre-diagnosed with a cancer that he had had as a young kid. And in the span of\n\n558\n00:31:35.260 --> 00:31:36.160\nsix months,\n\n559\n00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:47.190\nthis vicious sarcoma, he took his left arm, his, his wife had their first child\n\n560\n00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:48.480\n, he lost his left\n\n561\n00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:59.600\nlung, and then he died. And it was a just horrible, horrible time. I, I, during\n\n562\n00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:00.880\nthat time, when he\n\n563\n00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.080\nwas able, he was coming to the office before and after he was in the hospital.\n\n564\n00:32:06.080 --> 00:32:06.560\nAt the end,\n\n565\n00:32:06.560 --> 00:32:10.540\nhe was obviously was at the hospital. I became friendly with his parents. His\n\n566\n00:32:10.540 --> 00:32:11.360\nparents were\n\n567\n00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:17.410\ntrying to raise money for the Hackensack Pediatric Cancer Wing, the Tomorrow's\n\n568\n00:32:17.410 --> 00:32:18.320\nChildren's Fund,\n\n569\n00:32:18.320 --> 00:32:25.890\nat, in New Jersey. And they asked if I would get involved and, and how we could\n\n570\n00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:26.560\nraise money.\n\n571\n00:32:26.560 --> 00:32:33.810\nAnd I got a couple of friends to join me. And we came up with the idea of\n\n572\n00:32:33.810 --> 00:32:34.640\nhaving an investment\n\n573\n00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:39.390\nconference. Ira was incredibly passionate about the business. And we thought\n\n574\n00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:40.240\nthat, look, we certainly\n\n575\n00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.200\ndidn't envision what was going on fold. But we, we thought that it would be a,\n\n576\n00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:45.040\nit's maybe a clever\n\n577\n00:32:45.040 --> 00:32:50.740\nidea to try to have people come together, make some donation here, people's\n\n578\n00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:51.600\ninvestment ideas.\n\n579\n00:32:51.600 --> 00:32:58.250\nIt would be a, a charity that kind of paid for itself. And I found myself on\n\n580\n00:32:58.250 --> 00:32:59.040\nsome level,\n\n581\n00:32:59.040 --> 00:33:06.560\njust incredibly committed to make this work. And the first year, look, this is\n\n582\n00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:07.120\na time in,\n\n583\n00:33:07.120 --> 00:33:13.120\nin 1995, a CNBC had just started. So, I mean, hedge fund managers were not TV\n\n584\n00:33:13.120 --> 00:33:13.920\npersonalities,\n\n585\n00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.520\nan investment conference. When we first announced it, people didn't even really\n\n586\n00:33:17.520 --> 00:33:19.120\nknow what, what we\n\n587\n00:33:19.120 --> 00:33:24.090\nmeant. Our first year, I think we had 70 people attend. We got a bunch of our\n\n588\n00:33:24.090 --> 00:33:25.280\nfriends to speak.\n\n589\n00:33:25.280 --> 00:33:28.440\nAnd we were, you know, begging people to attend, just so that we weren't going\n\n590\n00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:29.600\nto embarrass ourselves.\n\n591\n00:33:29.600 --> 00:33:34.390\nAnd it took a couple of years to get a little momentum. I think the second year\n\n592\n00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:34.720\nwas in the\n\n593\n00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:38.390\nbasement of a midtown hotel and the air condition didn't work. And it was, it\n\n594\n00:33:38.390 --> 00:33:39.840\nwas a debacle.\n\n595\n00:33:39.840 --> 00:33:44.600\nBut the third year, Doug, you have like 12 zone conferences across the world.\n\n596\n00:33:44.600 --> 00:33:45.280\nThere's 12 zone\n\n597\n00:33:45.280 --> 00:33:53.310\nconferences and five continents. And it's, it's really taken off. And look, it\n\n598\n00:33:53.310 --> 00:33:53.840\n's been,\n\n599\n00:33:53.840 --> 00:34:00.250\nit's certainly turned into something beyond what we could have hoped. We raised\n\n600\n00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:00.800\nover a hundred\n\n601\n00:34:00.800 --> 00:34:04.950\nmillion dollars. I was watching billions. And they, they, they referenced the\n\n602\n00:34:04.950 --> 00:34:05.760\nzone conference.\n\n603\n00:34:05.760 --> 00:34:10.340\nBasically, people come in and bring their ideas, right, Doug? And, and then you\n\n604\n00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:11.200\n, you basically can\n\n605\n00:34:11.200 --> 00:34:15.020\nmove markets with a zone conference. I mean, people will, you know, say, this\n\n606\n00:34:15.020 --> 00:34:15.680\nis really going\n\n607\n00:34:15.680 --> 00:34:20.140\nto be a biggie. And boom, we moved markets quite a bit. We actually had a\n\n608\n00:34:20.140 --> 00:34:21.600\ncouple stocks that were\n\n609\n00:34:21.600 --> 00:34:27.020\nheld the next morning, because they couldn't open them. We then knew that we\n\n610\n00:34:27.020 --> 00:34:28.960\nwere, that we had arrived\n\n611\n00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:33.810\nwhen, when we were moving markets before the conference, meaning stocks were\n\n612\n00:34:33.810 --> 00:34:35.280\nmoving in anticipation\n\n613\n00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.840\nof whether or not a speaker would, would mention that stock. So yeah, it's been\n\n614\n00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:41.280\n, it's been fun to\n\n615\n00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:46.140\nsee it unfold. You know, and, and I understand, I think I have this right, but\n\n616\n00:34:46.140 --> 00:34:47.440\nthe, the world class\n\n617\n00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.840\nchess player, one of the greatest in history, Magnus Carlson,\n\n618\n00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:56.670\nyes, attended one of the conferences and didn't you play him in a chess match?\n\n619\n00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:57.440\nI mean, you know,\n\n620\n00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:02.140\nhe, he, he more than attended. He, he did a, an exhibition. He played three\n\n621\n00:35:02.140 --> 00:35:03.280\npeople blindfolded.\n\n622\n00:35:04.160 --> 00:35:11.280\nI did on a separate occasion, I did play an alternate move match with Magnus as\n\n623\n00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:12.400\nmy partner\n\n624\n00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:16.690\nagainst Kasparov. That was, that was certainly a highlight for me. What did you\n\n625\n00:35:16.690 --> 00:35:17.920\nlearn, you know,\n\n626\n00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.980\nwatching this guy in action? I mean, you know, what did he do that made you\n\n627\n00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:22.880\nwant to get better at\n\n628\n00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:29.390\nwhat you do? He is, look, I don't, some, I think you can learn some things from\n\n629\n00:35:29.390 --> 00:35:30.400\nMagnus, but you can\n\n630\n00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:34.810\nalso be reminded of some things from Mac by Magnus. He, I think you're just\n\n631\n00:35:34.810 --> 00:35:35.920\nreminded that there's\n\n632\n00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.700\nlevels of everything. I think there's 600 million, there's over 600 million\n\n633\n00:35:39.700 --> 00:35:40.720\npeople in the world who\n\n634\n00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:46.110\nplay chess, which is staggering. But you know, when you think about it, you can\n\n635\n00:35:46.110 --> 00:35:47.120\nplay at any age,\n\n636\n00:35:47.120 --> 00:35:53.680\nyou can play with any physical disability you might have. There are cultures in\n\n637\n00:35:53.680 --> 00:35:54.880\ncertainly Russia and\n\n638\n00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:01.640\nAsia, Eastern Europe that, that chess is the most important game there is and\n\n639\n00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:03.280\ncertainly the,\n\n640\n00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:10.170\nthe barometer of intelligence. And here's a guy who has, you know, is arguably\n\n641\n00:36:10.170 --> 00:36:11.120\nthe best player in\n\n642\n00:36:11.120 --> 00:36:15.670\nthe history of the game. And he is, has been called the Mozart of chess since\n\n643\n00:36:15.670 --> 00:36:16.240\nhe was,\n\n644\n00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:24.320\nyou know, probably seven years old. He instinctively is so sound, but he's also\n\n645\n00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:25.760\nincredibly imaginative\n\n646\n00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:31.050\nand, and, and willing to think about, you know, positions and sacrifices that\n\n647\n00:36:31.050 --> 00:36:32.000\nothers aren't.\n\n648\n00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.500\nAnd you know, it's interesting. I was chatting with his, with his father. I\n\n649\n00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:36.320\nmean, Magnus\n\n650\n00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:44.230\nwas, when Magnus was four, he had memorized all of the countries and capitals\n\n651\n00:36:44.230 --> 00:36:45.600\nand states of,\n\n652\n00:36:45.600 --> 00:36:52.020\nof everywhere and their populations. He would play with Legos for, for hours on\n\n653\n00:36:52.020 --> 00:36:53.200\na time. And then after\n\n654\n00:36:53.200 --> 00:36:58.120\nhe had built, you know, intricate, intricate, you know, contraptions, he would\n\n655\n00:36:58.120 --> 00:36:59.520\nthen guess what they\n\n656\n00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:04.080\nweighed. And he was four years old. And you know, his father was, you know,\n\n657\n00:37:04.080 --> 00:37:05.120\nintroduced him to chess\n\n658\n00:37:05.120 --> 00:37:09.730\nbecause he saw in Magnus this incredible ability to concentrate. And his father\n\n659\n00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:10.560\nalso highlighted\n\n660\n00:37:10.560 --> 00:37:14.330\nthat, you know, if Magnus had grown up in, in, in Russia where they're, they're\n\n661\n00:37:14.330 --> 00:37:15.280\nseeking, or\n\n662\n00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:19.490\nIndia where they, where they seek these talented kids, and then they, you know,\n\n663\n00:37:19.490 --> 00:37:20.080\nthey, they, they,\n\n664\n00:37:20.080 --> 00:37:25.570\nthey steer them to, you know, effectively become, you know, child prodigies\n\n665\n00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:26.400\nwhere they're playing\n\n666\n00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.600\nchess eight hours a day that, you know, if, if Magnus had been handled like\n\n667\n00:37:29.600 --> 00:37:30.720\nthat, you know, it\n\n668\n00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:35.950\nwould have ruined him. And that for Magnus, you know, his, his commitment to\n\n669\n00:37:35.950 --> 00:37:37.760\nchess was, was a sign\n\n670\n00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.040\nof his genius. It wasn't a formula for it. And you know, his father said that\n\n671\n00:37:41.040 --> 00:37:42.480\nit, at, at dinners when\n\n672\n00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:46.760\nhe was six or seven years old, Magnus would take his food and eat at a, at a\n\n673\n00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:48.000\nseparate area with a\n\n674\n00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:52.770\nchessbook. And I think that, you know, that the takeaway for me has been, you\n\n675\n00:37:52.770 --> 00:37:53.920\nknow, this is a kid\n\n676\n00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:00.720\nthat was incredibly self-taught, whose passion just dictated what he wanted to\n\n677\n00:38:00.720 --> 00:38:02.880\ndo. And his, his interests\n\n678\n00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.660\nare narrow, but incredibly deep. You know, you can look at games that he played\n\n679\n00:38:06.660 --> 00:38:07.440\nwhen he was 10\n\n680\n00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.360\nyears old and the exact moves he made. And it's, it's staggering. So,\n\n681\n00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:19.480\nyou know, he's inspiring. You know, so you end up in 2015, Doug, you actually\n\n682\n00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:20.480\nshut down the\n\n683\n00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:25.200\nSeneca Fund to outside investors. You know, what drove that decision?\n\n684\n00:38:25.200 --> 00:38:31.200\nI was the frog in the boiling water who didn't realize, you know, who took a\n\n685\n00:38:31.200 --> 00:38:32.080\nlong time to realize\n\n686\n00:38:32.080 --> 00:38:38.660\nhow hot it was. And I think that, you know, I finally realized that it was\n\n687\n00:38:38.660 --> 00:38:40.320\nboiling. I had\n\n688\n00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:48.870\nblinders on for so long. I had, I had been, you know, preoccupied with business\n\n689\n00:38:48.870 --> 00:38:50.800\n, regardless. I mean,\n\n690\n00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.380\nI, you know, would be with, with our kids. And, and, you know, I was thinking\n\n691\n00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:56.000\nabout the office, I would\n\n692\n00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:01.160\nbe playing golf on the weekend. And my head was in the office. And I really\n\n693\n00:39:01.160 --> 00:39:02.560\njust realized that,\n\n694\n00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:06.090\nthat I couldn't make the sacrifices anymore. I couldn't make the commitment I\n\n695\n00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:06.960\ndidn't want to.\n\n696\n00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:14.350\nAnd I sort of felt like I was retiring from the NFL without CTE. And it was,\n\n697\n00:39:14.350 --> 00:39:16.720\nyou know, look, it was a,\n\n698\n00:39:16.720 --> 00:39:22.720\na very tough decision in that I wasn't returning outside capital because I\n\n699\n00:39:22.720 --> 00:39:23.600\nwanted to specifically\n\n700\n00:39:23.600 --> 00:39:27.010\ndo something else. I was returning outside capital because I didn't want to run\n\n701\n00:39:27.010 --> 00:39:28.080\nmoney anymore,\n\n702\n00:39:28.080 --> 00:39:34.340\nrun outside money anymore. I, the, the, you know, absolute incessant, self-\n\n703\n00:39:34.340 --> 00:39:35.840\nimposed pressure.\n\n704\n00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:40.120\nYou know, they, they, they talk about it. You know, the best days are, you know\n\n705\n00:39:40.120 --> 00:39:40.880\n, the day you buy a\n\n706\n00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:43.920\nboat and the day you sell a boat. Well, for me, the best decision I ever made\n\n707\n00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:44.640\nwas getting in the\n\n708\n00:39:44.640 --> 00:39:49.240\nbusiness and the second best was getting out. You know, when you have such a\n\n709\n00:39:49.240 --> 00:39:50.640\nhigh intensity job\n\n710\n00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:56.560\nlike that, I mean, which you had, you know, you know, I've had people tell me\n\n711\n00:39:56.560 --> 00:39:57.520\nthat it takes a long\n\n712\n00:39:57.520 --> 00:40:01.170\ntime to get the adrenaline to leave your body. I mean, you know, how do you\n\n713\n00:40:01.170 --> 00:40:02.240\nmanage that kind of\n\n714\n00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:07.040\nspeed and intensity today? Professional pickleball, David.\n\n715\n00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:15.980\nI don't know, look, I've always been focused and driven and there I'm, you know\n\n716\n00:40:15.980 --> 00:40:16.560\n, and I'm,\n\n717\n00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:21.280\nI'm also, I'm a curious person. There's, I have not been bored. I,\n\n718\n00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:30.080\nit's been great. I feel, you know, it was an incredibly liberating decision. I,\n\n719\n00:40:30.080 --> 00:40:30.560\nyou know, going\n\n720\n00:40:30.560 --> 00:40:37.330\nback to Seneca, I do value my time. Speaking of Sohn, Richard Rainwater spoke,\n\n721\n00:40:37.330 --> 00:40:38.400\nyou know, the\n\n722\n00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.920\nlegendary investor spoke years ago and he commented that he had visited his\n\n723\n00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:44.160\nfather on his father's\n\n724\n00:40:44.160 --> 00:40:48.610\ndeathbed and Richard was very successful at the time and Richard's father said\n\n725\n00:40:48.610 --> 00:40:49.200\nto Richard,\n\n726\n00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:51.650\nare you doing what you want to do? Because you're going to run out of time\n\n727\n00:40:51.650 --> 00:40:52.480\nbefore you run out of\n\n728\n00:40:52.480 --> 00:41:00.240\nmoney. And look, I feel that I am, look, I'm so much more in the present now. I\n\n729\n00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:02.080\n'm enjoying myself\n\n730\n00:41:02.080 --> 00:41:07.280\na lot more. You know, I feel fortunate to be able to make the decision.\n\n731\n00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:11.200\nWe'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Doug Hirsch in just a\n\n732\n00:41:11.200 --> 00:41:11.520\nmoment.\n\n733\n00:41:12.240 --> 00:41:17.360\nTalking to Doug, I'm reminded of my conversation with Stanley Druckenmiller,\n\n734\n00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:23.440\nwho's widely regarded as the number one investor in the world. And despite all\n\n735\n00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.580\nDruck's success, he was quick to talk about the importance of learning from\n\n736\n00:41:27.580 --> 00:41:28.640\nyour failures.\n\n737\n00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:33.680\nThese successful people have all failed. They learn from their failures,\n\n738\n00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:38.150\nprobably the most famous commencement speech ever with Steve Jobs, speech at\n\n739\n00:41:38.150 --> 00:41:38.960\nStanford when he\n\n740\n00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:45.150\ntalked about failure. And I would just say that A, admit that you've had\n\n741\n00:41:45.150 --> 00:41:46.400\nfailures and then go back\n\n742\n00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:51.020\nand analyze those failures and why they happened and learn from them. The\n\n743\n00:41:51.020 --> 00:41:51.760\npeople that aren't\n\n744\n00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:56.800\nself-aware, look, self-aware people like myself, and I do think I'm self-aware,\n\n745\n00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:03.680\nI've had a lot of failures. But I use them to learn from as opposed to pretend\n\n746\n00:42:03.680 --> 00:42:04.160\nthey didn't\n\n747\n00:42:04.160 --> 00:42:07.000\nhappen. If you pretend they didn't happen, they're going to keep repeating\n\n748\n00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:07.680\nthemselves.\n\n749\n00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:13.620\nSo I would say that's the main thing is admit your failures and then learn from\n\n750\n00:42:13.620 --> 00:42:14.880\ntheir failures.\n\n751\n00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:20.630\nGo back and listen to my entire conversation with Stanley, episode 101 here on\n\n752\n00:42:20.630 --> 00:42:21.680\nHow Leaders Lead.\n\n753\n00:42:21.680 --> 00:42:26.400\nYet how do you cultivate your creativity and imagination? Because you're\n\n754\n00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:27.520\nobviously well read,\n\n755\n00:42:27.520 --> 00:42:33.600\nwhat do you do that really throughout your life that's really driven\n\n756\n00:42:33.600 --> 00:42:35.680\nimagination? You've used\n\n757\n00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:41.110\nthat word three or four times in this conversation. I do enjoy reading, I do\n\n758\n00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:43.440\nenjoy thinking, I've found\n\n759\n00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:50.150\nchess to be shockingly fulfilling. It's a game where you can explain the rules\n\n760\n00:42:50.150 --> 00:42:51.280\nto a 10-year-old\n\n761\n00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:59.550\nin 10 minutes and there are fascinating novelties that continue to unfold. I\n\n762\n00:42:59.550 --> 00:43:01.520\nthink that, I don't know,\n\n763\n00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:07.120\nI'm curious. Look, I don't know, I think the curiosity is a hugely important\n\n764\n00:43:07.120 --> 00:43:08.240\nthing both in\n\n765\n00:43:08.240 --> 00:43:15.360\nbusiness and in life. And if you're not curious, the days are very long.\n\n766\n00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.530\nI agree with that. This has been so much fun, Doug, and I want to have some\n\n767\n00:43:20.530 --> 00:43:21.040\nmore with my\n\n768\n00:43:21.040 --> 00:43:24.220\nlightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Probably not, but go\n\n769\n00:43:24.220 --> 00:43:24.880\nahead.\n\n770\n00:43:26.720 --> 00:43:32.800\nThe three words that others would use to describe you. Focused, driven,\n\n771\n00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.120\ntrustworthy.\n\n772\n00:43:35.120 --> 00:43:39.200\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?\n\n773\n00:43:39.200 --> 00:43:46.800\nConnor McDavid. He's a hockey player. I know, I know. You're a badass. No\n\n774\n00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:47.920\nquestion about that either.\n\n775\n00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:53.280\nOkay, your biggest pet peeve. My kids overusing and misusing the word like.\n\n776\n00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:58.480\nWho would play you in a movie? I got to go with Dougie Fresh. Everyone calls me\n\n777\n00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.600\nDougie, so that's,\n\n778\n00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:03.920\nit would be a comedy. What's the number of teeth you lost playing hockey? One\n\n779\n00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:04.960\nand a half, but\n\n780\n00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:10.960\nthey're the front ones. Who's the most famous tennis player you've taken down\n\n781\n00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:11.600\nin a pickleball\n\n782\n00:44:11.600 --> 00:44:16.090\ntournament? Rasti Sobek, who is a pro, he'll be flatter to hear that, but it's\n\n783\n00:44:16.090 --> 00:44:17.200\nprobably true.\n\n784\n00:44:17.200 --> 00:44:24.240\nYou get two front row tickets to anything you want. Where are you going and who\n\n785\n00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:24.640\nare you going\n\n786\n00:44:24.640 --> 00:44:29.420\nto take? Stanley Cup finals with my son. What's something about Jersey you'd\n\n787\n00:44:29.420 --> 00:44:30.080\nonly know if you\n\n788\n00:44:30.080 --> 00:44:33.140\nwere from there? Where to sit at the stone pony when you're hoping to see\n\n789\n00:44:33.140 --> 00:44:33.920\nSpringsteen?\n\n790\n00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:41.040\nWhat's the one thing that you do just for you? Chess. Chess is my mistress.\n\n791\n00:44:41.040 --> 00:44:42.000\nWhat's your most prized\n\n792\n00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:48.120\npossession? I have a, I got my photo taken with Bobby Orr when I was 10 years\n\n793\n00:44:48.120 --> 00:44:48.720\nold and\n\n794\n00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:55.870\nwe have a, it turns out we have a mutual friend and a year ago the friend\n\n795\n00:44:55.870 --> 00:44:56.880\nintroduced us. So\n\n796\n00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.840\nwhen I went to see Bobby, I brought the photo from when I was from 50 years ago\n\n797\n00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:02.720\nand we recreated\n\n798\n00:45:02.720 --> 00:45:07.670\nthe photo 50 years later. So it's, he got a big kick out of it. That sounds\n\n799\n00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:09.200\npriceless. Now,\n\n800\n00:45:09.200 --> 00:45:14.590\nif I turned on your, your radio and your car, what would I hear? Who podcasts\n\n801\n00:45:14.590 --> 00:45:16.080\nor classic rock?\n\n802\n00:45:16.080 --> 00:45:19.520\nWhat's something about you a few people would know? It's no secret that I don't\n\n803\n00:45:19.520 --> 00:45:19.840\nknow anything\n\n804\n00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:26.400\nabout cars, but my first job was actually working at a gas station. I was 14\n\n805\n00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:28.480\nand I was totally\n\n806\n00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:35.020\nincompetent. I, at the time the gas caps were not connected to the cars and I\n\n807\n00:45:35.020 --> 00:45:35.440\nprobably had a\n\n808\n00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.280\ndozen gas caps from, from cars that had driven when I started the gas caps. I\n\n809\n00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:40.320\nwould, I would\n\n810\n00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:43.930\ncuff checking the oil, cars that I couldn't figure out where the oil was and I\n\n811\n00:45:43.930 --> 00:45:44.320\nwould,\n\n812\n00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:46.240\nI would just tell them to better get a check next time.\n\n813\n00:45:48.080 --> 00:45:51.360\nWhat's one of your daily rituals, Doug? Something that you never miss.\n\n814\n00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:55.760\nSunscreen. I wish I would have. I'm a ball albino.\n\n815\n00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:00.620\nI wish I would have done that. All right. We're out of the lightning round.\n\n816\n00:46:00.620 --> 00:46:01.520\nGreat. Just a few more\n\n817\n00:46:01.520 --> 00:46:04.850\nquestions. I'll let you go here and get back to your pickleball, you know,\n\n818\n00:46:04.850 --> 00:46:05.680\nprowess, you know,\n\n819\n00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:11.120\nyour partners with Dr. Holly Anderson. She's a great spouse of yours and you\n\n820\n00:46:11.120 --> 00:46:11.280\nknow,\n\n821\n00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:16.560\nI actually interviewed her on, on, on episode 120 of this podcast and I got to\n\n822\n00:46:16.560 --> 00:46:17.680\ntell you, I,\n\n823\n00:46:17.680 --> 00:46:21.360\nwhen I think of the two of you, I think you may just be one of the top power\n\n824\n00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:22.960\ncouples in, in America.\n\n825\n00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:25.360\nI mean, how do you, how do you make it work?\n\n826\n00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:34.240\nFirst, I won the lottery when, when she said yes. Second, look, it's,\n\n827\n00:46:34.240 --> 00:46:41.280\nit's, it's challenging because they're, you know, both careers were pretty,\n\n828\n00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:49.380\nrequired big sacrifices. But I think, you know, trying to find some sense of\n\n829\n00:46:49.380 --> 00:46:51.200\nbalance in terms of,\n\n830\n00:46:51.200 --> 00:46:55.720\nof things at an early stage. Look, we were, we knew that we couldn't have kids\n\n831\n00:46:55.720 --> 00:46:56.160\nwhen we were\n\n832\n00:46:56.160 --> 00:47:03.200\nyounger. I would have been a horrible parent in my 20s or even early 30s. I\n\n833\n00:47:03.200 --> 00:47:04.400\nthink balance is,\n\n834\n00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:10.630\nis, is a myth at that age. But I think mutual respect and trying to, to keep\n\n835\n00:47:10.630 --> 00:47:11.840\nthings light and\n\n836\n00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:17.200\nappreciate humor. What's your unfinished business as you look forward, Doug?\n\n837\n00:47:17.200 --> 00:47:23.740\nI got to win a pickleball championship for Larry and my goal is not to be a\n\n838\n00:47:23.740 --> 00:47:24.720\nburden on our kids.\n\n839\n00:47:24.720 --> 00:47:31.710\nYou know, speaking of kids, you know, what's one piece of advice that someone\n\n840\n00:47:31.710 --> 00:47:32.240\ngave you\n\n841\n00:47:32.240 --> 00:47:36.910\nthat you'd want to give your two kids? I don't, I think the importance of humor\n\n842\n00:47:36.910 --> 00:47:38.320\nand of keeping\n\n843\n00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:44.940\nthings in perspective and, and lightness, it is so, there's so many challenges\n\n844\n00:47:44.940 --> 00:47:45.040\nto,\n\n845\n00:47:45.040 --> 00:47:51.600\nto our kids and, and their generation and social media has, has increased the\n\n846\n00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:52.880\nstakes of everything\n\n847\n00:47:52.880 --> 00:48:00.230\nand created these curated lives and, and, you know, and just got envy on\n\n848\n00:48:00.230 --> 00:48:03.120\nsteroids. So I, I think\n\n849\n00:48:03.120 --> 00:48:10.560\njust trying to, to appreciate irony and to appreciate humor. Give me a specific\n\n850\n00:48:10.560 --> 00:48:14.480\nexample of how humor has worked with one of your kids. You know, one, one story\n\n851\n00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:14.880\nthat, that,\n\n852\n00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:20.160\nthat recently resurfaced is that both of our kids are dyslexic and that's a,\n\n853\n00:48:20.160 --> 00:48:21.200\nthat's a tough\n\n854\n00:48:21.200 --> 00:48:26.500\nplight for, for a kid and requires a lot of work and, and standardized tests\n\n855\n00:48:26.500 --> 00:48:27.680\ncan often be,\n\n856\n00:48:27.680 --> 00:48:32.570\nbe very challenging. And I remember taking our daughter to, to a standardized\n\n857\n00:48:32.570 --> 00:48:33.360\ntest and I had\n\n858\n00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:36.960\nshared with her, she knew the story years, you know, from years ago that I\n\n859\n00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:38.240\nthink that the first and\n\n860\n00:48:38.240 --> 00:48:42.700\nonly book I had read by the time I was 15 was Oron Ice, which was a effectively\n\n861\n00:48:42.700 --> 00:48:43.600\na, almost a picture\n\n862\n00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:49.960\nbook of, of Bobby Orr and she always found that kind of entertaining. So on the\n\n863\n00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:51.440\n, in the cab ride\n\n864\n00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:57.380\nto the test, I brought the book and I brought the book out and she smiled and I\n\n865\n00:48:57.380 --> 00:48:58.400\nshowed it to her\n\n866\n00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:04.100\nand I showed her on page 12, you know, and now I put on my elbow pads and I was\n\n867\n00:49:04.100 --> 00:49:04.560\nshowing her,\n\n868\n00:49:04.560 --> 00:49:08.110\nI was telling her that how I, this is, this is the book that, that made me fall\n\n869\n00:49:08.110 --> 00:49:08.800\nin love with the\n\n870\n00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.930\nwritten word and that this was, you know, this is why I became such a fan of\n\n871\n00:49:12.930 --> 00:49:13.680\nHemingway because\n\n872\n00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:18.960\nthe writing was so concise. And when we got to, to, to the, to the test center,\n\n873\n00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:19.680\nshe gave me a huge\n\n874\n00:49:19.680 --> 00:49:23.680\nhug and thanked me and it was clear that, you know, that the stakes were, were\n\n875\n00:49:23.680 --> 00:49:24.640\nless than before the\n\n876\n00:49:24.640 --> 00:49:30.170\ncab ride and that the, that was perspective. And I think that humor is often\n\n877\n00:49:30.170 --> 00:49:31.440\nunder appreciated.\n\n878\n00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:35.280\nYou know, I think when I think of humor, it obviously starts with H. The other\n\n879\n00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:35.520\nthing\n\n880\n00:49:35.520 --> 00:49:39.800\nit starts with the H is heart. And one thing I'll say about you, Doug, you have\n\n881\n00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:40.640\na huge heart.\n\n882\n00:49:40.640 --> 00:49:46.080\nI mean, you know, you started the SON conference and you've raised over 100\n\n883\n00:49:46.080 --> 00:49:47.440\nmillions in, in,\n\n884\n00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:51.410\nfor cancer. And, and just on a personal level, you know, the, the struggles\n\n885\n00:49:51.410 --> 00:49:52.640\nthat I had with my wife,\n\n886\n00:49:52.640 --> 00:49:57.150\nWendy, you, you, you were always the, you know, one of the first to reach out\n\n887\n00:49:57.150 --> 00:49:58.240\nand ask me how I was\n\n888\n00:49:58.240 --> 00:50:02.820\ndoing or how she's doing. And, and same when she passed. And, you know, I think\n\n889\n00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:03.920\nthat heart is a big\n\n890\n00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:09.930\npart of what makes you go. You know, last question. What's one piece of advice\n\n891\n00:50:09.930 --> 00:50:11.040\nyou'd give to anyone\n\n892\n00:50:11.040 --> 00:50:14.340\nwho wants to be a better leader? The most successful team in the, in the\n\n893\n00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:15.440\nhistory of sports has been\n\n894\n00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:19.820\nthe New Zealand All Blacks. And they have, their mantra is sweep the shed. And\n\n895\n00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:21.280\nwhat it means is that\n\n896\n00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:26.740\nnothing is too small even for their superstars. And I think that that's a huge\n\n897\n00:50:26.740 --> 00:50:28.240\nthing. I mean, we've,\n\n898\n00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:35.190\nwe've got, you know, CEOs who have their own elevators. And they're so, you\n\n899\n00:50:35.190 --> 00:50:37.120\nknow, disconnected. And,\n\n900\n00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:41.190\nand how can the culture there possibly work? I think that, you know, who, who\n\n901\n00:50:41.190 --> 00:50:41.600\ndo you want to be\n\n902\n00:50:41.600 --> 00:50:45.560\nat a foxhole with? You know, there's that great story, the, the great joke\n\n903\n00:50:45.560 --> 00:50:47.200\nabout Lufthansa. So the\n\n904\n00:50:47.200 --> 00:50:54.180\nLufthansa pilot is speaking over the loud, over the loudspeaker that we've just\n\n905\n00:50:54.180 --> 00:50:55.840\nlost our second\n\n906\n00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.110\nengine, but we've been trained for this. We're okay. Please do not worry. We\n\n907\n00:51:00.110 --> 00:51:01.280\nhave everything under\n\n908\n00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:06.010\ncontrol. We've, we've been, we've been totally prepared for this. And he's\n\n909\n00:51:06.010 --> 00:51:07.360\ntaking them through and\n\n910\n00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:11.790\nthey land in the middle of the ocean. And he's reassuring everybody and of your\n\n911\n00:51:11.790 --> 00:51:12.400\nleader,\n\n912\n00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:17.520\nwe're good. And then he says, everyone, you know, okay, everyone who can swim,\n\n913\n00:51:17.520 --> 00:51:18.400\nplease move over to\n\n914\n00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:22.720\nthe right wing. And everyone who can't swim, thank you for flying Lufthansa.\n\n915\n00:51:22.720 --> 00:51:25.040\nAnd, you know, I think\n\n916\n00:51:25.040 --> 00:51:29.980\nthat people know if you're in it with them or not. And you can't fake it. I\n\n917\n00:51:29.980 --> 00:51:31.280\nmean, that's what made\n\n918\n00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:36.640\nMessier so good. That's what made, that's what makes leaders. Well, and you're,\n\n919\n00:51:36.640 --> 00:51:37.600\nyou're an excellent\n\n920\n00:51:37.600 --> 00:51:41.710\nleader. And I thank you so much, Doug, for taking the time to be on this show.\n\n921\n00:51:41.710 --> 00:51:42.640\nAnd I hope you win\n\n922\n00:51:42.640 --> 00:51:47.700\nthat pickleball championship with your Arizona team. Because poor Larry\n\n923\n00:51:47.700 --> 00:51:48.960\nFitzgerald, you know,\n\n924\n00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:52.080\nhe needs some money. Thanks for having me.\n\n925\n00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:03.220\nLet me tell you, the big guy upstairs broke the mold when he made Doug. And I'm\n\n926\n00:52:03.220 --> 00:52:04.000\nglad you got a\n\n927\n00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.880\nchance to learn from him today and see how he makes excellence a habit. You\n\n928\n00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:10.480\nknow, excellence is a\n\n929\n00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.810\nword we tend to throw around a lot in the business world. But when you stop and\n\n930\n00:52:14.810 --> 00:52:16.880\nunpack it, you realize\n\n931\n00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:21.250\nexcellent isn't just a standard you aim for, nor is it merely a synonym for\n\n932\n00:52:21.250 --> 00:52:22.000\ntalent.\n\n933\n00:52:22.640 --> 00:52:27.810\nExcellence is a habit. As you can see from Doug's remarkable career, it's what\n\n934\n00:52:27.810 --> 00:52:28.560\nhappens when you\n\n935\n00:52:28.560 --> 00:52:34.300\nget your priorities straight, make sacrifices and stay disciplined even when it\n\n936\n00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:35.680\n's hard. This week,\n\n937\n00:52:35.680 --> 00:52:39.360\nask yourself where you'd like to see more excellence in your work. Then\n\n938\n00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:40.640\nconsider how your current\n\n939\n00:52:40.640 --> 00:52:45.040\npriorities and discipline might need to change in order to make it happen. So\n\n940\n00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:46.720\ndo you want to know\n\n941\n00:52:46.720 --> 00:52:50.640\nhow leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that\n\n942\n00:52:50.640 --> 00:52:52.000\nexcellence is a habit.\n\n943\n00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:57.600\nComing up next on How leaders lead is Jared Belsky, the CEO of Acadia, which ad\n\n944\n00:52:57.600 --> 00:52:58.240\nage named\n\n945\n00:52:58.240 --> 00:53:02.160\nits performance agency of the year. Sometimes larger entities have this thing\n\n946\n00:53:02.160 --> 00:53:03.200\ncalled a dysfunction\n\n947\n00:53:03.200 --> 00:53:08.330\ntax and that you build up all these strange meetings and politics where people\n\n948\n00:53:08.330 --> 00:53:09.280\nare spending\n\n949\n00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:14.340\nhalf their day making power points for some boss they don't even know. Like, we\n\n950\n00:53:14.340 --> 00:53:15.120\n're just taking all\n\n951\n00:53:15.120 --> 00:53:19.750\nthat waste of dysfunction and investing it and obsessing about our clients and\n\n952\n00:53:19.750 --> 00:53:20.880\nour employees.\n\n953\n00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:24.880\nSo be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again\n\n954\n00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:25.360\nfor tuning\n\n955\n00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:29.370\nin to another episode of How leaders lead where every Thursday you get to\n\n956\n00:53:29.370 --> 00:53:30.000\nlisten in\n\n957\n00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.160\nwhile I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I may get a point\n\n958\n00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:35.040\nto give you something\n\n959\n00:53:35.040 --> 00:53:39.410\nsimple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will\n\n960\n00:53:39.410 --> 00:53:40.560\nbecome the best\n\n961\n00:53:40.560 --> 00:53:41.840\nleader you can be.\n\n962\n00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:51.840\n[BLANK_AUDIO]\n","

Doug Hirsch 0:00

David Novak 0:23

okay, everybody, are you ready for this? Buckle up, because this conversation is going to go from pickleball to philosophy to hedge funds to chess, and I promise you, there are leadership lessons at every turn. Welcome to How leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you can be. My guest today is Doug Hirsch, who, as you may have guessed, is a true Renaissance man. He's the former founder of the hedge fund Seneca capital, and the guy who launched the popular Soane investment conference. He's also the owner of Major League pickleball team, the Arizona drive, and a heck of a player himself, having recently been crowned the men's over 60 nationals champion and is now playing on the senior pro circuit. I mean, everything Doug does, he succeeds at, and sometimes, when we see that kind of excellence, we want to attribute it to raw talent and intelligence. And sure, they're important, but that's not all that really matters. Listen to this conversation and discover why excellence isn't just a standard to meet, it's a habit to develop. Here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Doug Hirsch,

you know, Doug, you are a pickleball fanatic. How did you get into it?

Doug Hirsch 2:01

Well, it was a funny story. I was, I was having breakfast one day with with Larry Fitzgerald. We were gonna play golf, and it was, it was raining, and he suggested we go play pickleball. And it was, he might as well have suggested we go play bingo. I thought it was just crazy. I was very dismissive of the sport. I didn't know anything about it, but that didn't stop me from being dismissive and skeptical. And skeptical. But we, we found a local place to play, and it was a lot of fun. And I was hooked. I was

David Novak 2:28

hooked. And, you know, you play Larry Fitzgerald, he's, you know, a Hall of Fame NFL football player, great receiver. It who won?

Doug Hirsch 2:38

Well, I I convinced him that being 20 years older and about six inches shorter was an advantage, and I told him that he'd have to wait till I was 80 to beat me, and I've been playing a lot more since then. So I had to revise that to 85

David Novak 2:54

you have been playing a lot more, and you only started a few years ago, and you're the national over 60 champion, and now you're playing on the senior Pro Tour, Doug. I mean, how'd you get so good at pickleball so fast? Because that's, that's a heck of a accomplishment. I I really don't know too many national champions of anything. Well,

Doug Hirsch 3:15

I played a lot of tennis growing up. Regrettably, I never played golf growing up, but I played a lot of tennis growing up, and that's that's certainly been a huge head start the senior pro level is, is, is, is, is a different level, because that's 50 and over. So I'm spotting some of these guys 10 years and the better players did play professional tennis. I actually my my first pro tournament, I was able to win my first round match, and I played number one in the world my second round, and unfortunately, the better player won. He's about a six foot three Swedish former tennis pro, and he got the better me, but I do want another crack at him.

David Novak 3:51

Now, I understand you practice with Yvonne Lendl, who is ranked number one in the world. You know, what do you learn about leadership? Just hanging with a guy like that.

Doug Hirsch 4:02

You know, he it's interesting because his persona, he's so fun to be around. He talks huge trash. And it's his persona is so different than his his aura from, from 40 years ago, where he was this, you know, Czechoslovakian machine, who, I think a revolutionized fitness. Really introduced fitness to tennis. He revolutionized Inside Out forehand. And this is a guy who, you know, he lost a very tough match in five sets in a major. And he said to himself then that he will never lose again based on not being being fit. And he totally, you know, upped his game. There are people that arguably had more natural talent than he did, his just, his will to increase his his his competitiveness, his his fire. He. Was just so prepared for matches, and he really didn't leave anything to chance. So he he set the bar incredibly high after we played for the pickleball for the first time, I went home and I watched some of his highlights on YouTube from 40 years ago. And my god, he was he was awesome. He was so fluid and strong. You

David Novak 5:22

know, one of the things that that, you know, I've always admired about you Doug, is that you stay fit. I mean, you're, you're extremely fit. How do you think just being in shape really impacted the way you brought yourself to work? Yeah,

Doug Hirsch 5:35

I think that it, I think it matters. Um, I've always, I guess, since I started, you know, played sports early, being in shape was was important. There are probably some people early in my career who would have viewed working at Seneca as a contact sport, but it's physical, and I think that you you can't perform mentally unless you're you're physically fit, that's interesting. There are chess players. Bobby Fisher was famous for, for for physically training for chess. I mean, you burn a lot of calories thinking, and you can't really, you can't perform at your highest without, without being in shape. I i find it a high if I'm not sweating and exerting myself and and getting my endorphins going, it's a frustrating day. Now,

David Novak 6:29

Doug, you've gone on and you've taken this passion that you have for pickleball and you've actually bought a professional team that the Arizona drive. You know, being the really smart investor that you are, what makes you think buying a pickleball team will end up being a big plus on the investment side? Yeah, I

Doug Hirsch 6:50

mean, we, I certainly wasn't in the market to buy a professional pickleball team that the opportunity surfaced. I think that, look, I think Pickleball is unique in that it is so accessible, any age, any ability, in 10 minutes, you can have a lot of fun playing pickleball. And that you can't say that about you know, certainly can't say that about tennis. It's not the case in golf, for sure. So, you know, there's a saying that there's no there's no politics on a pickleball court. You've got people all walks of life. I mean, there's no barrier. You spend a $75 on a paddle, and you have a pair of sneakers you can play. And there you can't get a court in a lot of places. Now, there's, you know, the, you know the difference between a tennis court and a pickleball court, the tennis courts the one with no one on it, and it's, it's because it's and I don't think, look, COVID certainly was an accelerant. But I don't think it's a fad. I think that there are so many social benefits to it. There's physical benefits to it. There's a huge element of loneliness that pervades senior citizens. And this has given people a real way to to find something to do. I think it's going to be an Olympic sport. I think the question in terms of the major league pickleball, the real question is, you know, is it televisable? Is there a television is there a TV audience for it? And I think that, you know, the participation levels are crazy and continue to be exponential. And I don't see how there can be that big a disconnect between the viewing audience and the and the participation level. I mean, look, ESPN has corn hole and darts on TV. I think that there's, there will be people who want to, want to see the game played by the best in the world that the same game that they're playing. So I'm bullish on it. I'm bullish,

David Novak 8:40

you know, not surprisingly, you've been a leader in everything that you've done, and I know as a team owner, you were instrumental in bringing a dispute between the professional pickleball Association, which was one side and the other side was the major league pickleball organization, and you stepped in and you bought you brought both those teams together when the merger was starting to fall apart. You know, why do you think, you know, big deals fall apart, and then what do you as a leader do to bring them back together?

Doug Hirsch 9:17

Yeah, so this was, this really was a on some level, a case study, a Harvard Business School case study that that arguably should be on Saturday Night Live as well. This really was the the epitome of someone falling prey to ego and emotion, the founder of Major League pickleball, who clearly had some very good ideas and who galvanized this sport, felt that he was being slighted, and broke off the deal and tried and contracted about 100 players for $100 million with three year contracts, and he only had a million dollars in the bank. So he ironically, he felt that he was putting the other side out of business, and he put himself. Out of business. And I think that the lesson really is that ego and emotion need to be checked. And if you're not objective and rational and you let your your emotions dictate you your actions, you're going to have a problem. We were able to bring sides together, the two sides together after he resigned and and resurrect something. But the damage is still real, because they they had financially really burdened the new co so, so significantly that we've got a lot of a lot of wood to chop to get ourselves back on foot, but it ego and emotion are, you know, anyone can be vulnerable to it.

David Novak 10:50

You're right about that. And, you know, I want to shift gears for a minute, and I want to take you back. In your case, it's way back, because I'm going to take you back to your childhood? What's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you are today?

Doug Hirsch 11:06

I think there's probably a couple things. I mean, my father, my father's was very family oriented and very spans, very sports oriented, and was a huge Green Bay Packers fan, so there was a Lombardi ethos that that permeated our household and and that was was very real in many different ways. He my father was not career oriented and, and ironically, that probably fueled some of my career passion. I mean, money was certainly a sensitivity at times. I remember that when I went to the dentist and was told that I needed braces, my father said that we weren't he wasn't going to get me braces because I was going to get my teeth knocked out anyway, he proved to be right. But I think that there was a Lombardi ethos that was instilled in me, and I think that through my mother, I was very my mother's father had Parkinson's, and that was a very raw, bitter pill for me, you know, growing up, because I saw the impact it had on her. And I remember, you know, asking her all questions, all sorts of questions about him. He was, you know, he had tremors, and he he had trouble, and he stuttered. He had trouble, you know, articulating things. But he but mentally, he was fine. But I was very intrigued with him. And my mother had shared that, you know, he had started a retail clothing business in Oklahoma and took the very bold step in the early 60s of allowing African Americans to shop at his stores, and there were people protesting and picketing outside, and he was fine with that, and he felt that, you know, that he was going to stay true to himself and do the right thing and see how things played out. And I remember she showed me an article that was written in the in the local paper about it, and that that had big impact on me. And the other thing that I remember is that when my mother's older brother went to went to New York after college, leaving Oklahoma, my grandfather said to him, you know, just whatever you do, don't find yourself working for your secretary or your accountant, meaning, you know, don't, don't live a double life, and don't, don't take shortcuts, you know. And I think that you know that, look, this was a an Okie from Muskogee, giving, you know, very sharing, real, Uncommon Sense views. And it just, you know, it definitely is something that that that registered with me. And you know that it's the Twain, the great Twain line that you know, tell the truth. It's easier to remember, and I think that that's guided me through my journey in the hedge fund business in terms of, you know, being true to your word, and having people being able to trust with you. They may disagree, may disagree with you, but they at least trust you. You know, you

David Novak 14:00

played hockey in college, and you were one of Dartmouth's leading scorers. What's a lesson that you learned then that you've carried off the ice and really impacted the way I you you go to work?

Doug Hirsch 14:14

Yeah, I think look, sports offer so much. And I think that again, from the Lombardi cradle I was born in to to sort of chasing this dream of playing Division one college hockey in high school, Dartmouth was was third in the nation. They lost, back to back years to North Dakota, and I remember, you know, when I made the team as a freshman, how incredible that feeling was, and there was just an incredible sense of mission and of camaraderie. I recall, you know, one incident junior year when we had we had a road trip, and I think we were tied against Clarkson going into the third period. And. Blew us out in the third period, and we drove back to Hanover that night. By the way, we had classes the next day, and we got back to Hanover about one in the morning, and as we were pulling into Hanover, the coach told us that we should meet in the locker room that put our equipment on, which obviously was soaking wet, and He skated us for about 45 minutes without lights on in the rink. There were, you know, there were you there was some moonlight you could see, but there were no pucks. It was just whistles, and He skated us into the ground. And it's just indelibly instilled in me, you know, discipline. You know discipline versus regret, and that you often have this choice between discipline and regret. And I think that you know the memories, the friendships, the pursuit you know, the challenging yourself to see how you could how good you could be, these are things that that definitely, you know, I've taken from hockey to, you know, to everything I do, you know,

David Novak 16:03

you you were a hockey player, that you were also a philosophy major, you know, which I found to be a little bit surprising, and and you end up starting your own hedge fund. Was there a specific leader, Doug, that really impacted you in the investment world, that shaped, shaped your experience and where you wanted to head.

Doug Hirsch 16:26

You know, I look when I, when I graduated from Dartmouth with, without, incidentally, taking an economics class or a math class. You know, I didn't do corporate recruiting. I was lucky to get a part time job as I thought I was going to go to law school the next fall, and I wound up getting a an informational interview at at a place called Jamie. Was an acronym for John A Mulhern, Izzy Englander. And I went over there, and it was, I was interested in stocks, by the way, I didn't know the difference when I graduated Dartmouth from between a stock and a bond but, but I at least had, at that point some at least sexy sense of being involved in the stock market versus the bond market. But I went over there. I was chatting with Izzy. As it turned out, they had just fired somebody, which wasn't uncommon, Jamie and John Mulhern in particular was a was a very tough Darwinian shop where he was just incredibly impatient and and brilliant. And as I learned more, I was intrigued again. It wasn't the area that I wanted to be in, but as I learned more, it was I realized that that John's brilliance was was attracting me. Izzy shared that, you know, I'd have to come back and meet John. So I did a bunch of homework learning about John, you know, you know, he was just viewed as he was so fertile and imaginative. And and and again, his upbringing was not the traditional Wall Street upbringing. Uh, remember this? This great story where he, for whatever reason, got very bullish on copper and made the insight, or learned that there were about 150 pennies in a pound of copper, and copper was trading at, I don't know, $1.20 or something a pound. And John, who didn't do anything in a small way, you know, with the with that insight, started hoarding pennies, and he was paying people to go to McDonald's and banks and anywhere he could go and collect and get pennies. And he had, he had vaults in New York, where he was storing pennies, and sure enough, and he may have added to it, but there was a penny shorted scarcity, and the penny get Penny went the copper went to over $2 a pound. So his pennies became worth a lot more as copper than they were as pennies. And as he was going to cash in on the trade, the FBI got involved because you can't tamper with currency. But the point was that this is a guy who was just so imaginative and so free thinking, and I wanted to do anything I could to work there. And it was an incredible, you know, incredible opportunity to meet, for me, to be around someone like that. It didn't last long, because there, right after I started the Ivan Boesky scandal unfolded, John wound up being implicated in that. He challenged the government. He's the only person that challenged the government. He was exonerated on on all counts, but he was forced to close the fund. But his impact on me was was huge.

David Novak 19:42

So, you know, John could smell money. And do you think that transferred over to you, Doug, do you think people would say that you, you, you smell money in the sense of knowing, knowing how to make it and how to go after it?

Doug Hirsch 19:56

I think you start to get a sense of what's in your major. Pool and where, and ideas that you think smell like money making opportunities, yeah. And, you know, on some level, there's a part of our business which is making analogies. And, you know, having seen this, this movie before, and things don't repeat, but they do rhyme. And I think that, Look he There's definitely times in my career where I did think about John, where I did attempt to think about how John would think about something, and try not to be confined by by dogma and by, you know, trying to look at things fresh. Hey,

David Novak 20:34

Doug, you said something that was really interesting to me. There. You said, things don't repeat, but they do rhyme. Say more,

Doug Hirsch 20:40

well, again, I guess I'm quoting Mark Twain. But you know, I think that whether it's investments or history, you know, the exact same situation doesn't necessarily happen again, but something but a variation of it does. The most four dangerous words in investment are this time it's different, and there's always an explanation as to why this time it's different, but quite often it isn't. And you know, these distinctions are what what it's all about. So comparing and contrasting, making analogies is on some level, that's that's what it's about. Hey,

Koula Callahan 21:20

everyone. It's Kula. We'll get back to the interview in just a second before we do though, I have a question for you. Have you downloaded the how leaders lead app on your iPhone? If you haven't take 20 seconds right now, go to the App Store, search for how leaders lead and download the how leaders lead app. In the app, every day, you'll get a two minute video that'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our podcast to inspire you and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work day. So go to the App Store, search how leaders lead, download the how leaders lead, app, and start your day every day with two minutes of leadership wisdom. It'll take 20 seconds. Go to the App Store, download the app and you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight from how leaders lead. So

David Novak 22:07

you end up starting your own hedge fund. You call it Seneca. Why the name Seneca?

Doug Hirsch 22:13

Well, so in college, I took a I was taking a philosophy class, and the professor mentioned that if you ever get a chance to read something by Seneca, you should Seneca what wasn't in the in the syllabus, but I stumbled on a shortly thereafter, I stumbled on a book by Seneca that was a collection of short stories, but that the cover story, the cover the title was on the shortness of life, and I read it. It's about 30 pages. It was and is the best 30 pages I've ever read. And it really is just about how people squander time, whether it's chasing materialism, social climbing, they trade what they have such little of time for to increase form over content. And the book was the essay was just so powerful in terms of how you know the importance of using your time. So it was natural that that I started the fund to call it Seneca. I'd

David Novak 23:23

like you to give us a little bit of insight on the kind of investing you did, because it was a lot of it was based on timing. I know all investments are, but, you know, give us an example of the of one of your best deals and how it sort of typifies what made you work our

Doug Hirsch 23:41

mandate was event driven investing. And when we started, when I started on my own, I guess it was 1990 Seneca was a successor fund to a department I had started. So Seneca formally started in 96 but it was a lot of merger arbitrage, restructurings, recapitalizations, some bankruptcy and it was really just opportunistic investing where it was bottoms up rather than top down. We weren't making macro calls on interest rates or currency or even the broad market. We were trying to identify situations where we felt we had an edge or an insight, and where there was a pending event that was either might happen or likely to happen or might not happen, and was a reason why we thought that a security today would be priced differently in the foreseeable Future. And you know, I think that being opportunistic was was key, because over time, you know, a strategies get more competitive and you you have to be flexible, if not, if not, you perish. I think that, you know, I guess the one that comes quickest to my mind on. Um, is, was, was one of the first ones, because it was so important to me in terms of getting confidence. But in 19, in 1991 Office Depot agreed to merge with Office club, and it was a stock deal. There was a very big spread, if you were to buy Office club, the target and short Office Depot, you were locking in a very like a 30% un annualized spread, and that's because you couldn't borrow Office Depot. Is very hard to borrow it. If you bought office club without shorting Office Depot, and Office Depot went down, you wouldn't make your spread. And I was, I was obsessed with this spread because it was so big, you obviously, you had to have some comfort that from an antitrust perspective, they would get clearance. But we felt that they would. And as I was just, you know, obsessing over this deal again. This is at 91 the ability on the internet to access things was much different. But I cold called a couple of the founders of Office Depot, and I after, on some level, harassing he must have felt I was harassing one of the co founders. I got him to hear me out, and I offered to pay him, you know, some, some small percent of the spread if I could borrow his office depot stock. I would just be borrowing it for the deal. When the deal closed, I would return it to him. He would have no there'd be no implications on him as to what, you know, up down sideways. He was just going to make money. And it took some convincing, and I was able to borrow a lot of stock, and therefore to lock in this spread. And the deal closed. And this was, at the time, a very, very big winner for us, at a time where we were just starting to prove ourselves. And, you know, I on some level this, this was, you know, thinking outside the box a bit, and trying and being creative. And it's, it's a deal I'll never forget. I, you know, I'm friendly with that founder today, and it was a great win.

David Novak 27:17

You said that it gave you confidence early on. You know, how long did it take you Doug, you know, being in business, to where you literally could say, in terms of running your firm that you you were confident?

Doug Hirsch 27:30

The answer is, a long time. I mean, look, I started, it's a good thing. I didn't know how much I didn't know, or I wouldn't have have started the department I started all I knew I wasn't is that I wasn't going to make a bet that I couldn't afford to lose. I think that that fear is a great motivator. And for those early years in particular, there was just a I didn't need an alarm clock. I was in early. I don't, you know, I practically had a port a potty at that at the desk. I was afraid of losing leaving the desk. I don't think I went out for lunch for the first decade. That's a lot of turkey sandwiches. But I think that, you know what Andy Grove's, you know, famous saying that you know only the Paranoid Survive. You know, I think that you that you have to have that element of fear. The market, you know, doesn't care if you own something and look, I was, I was just determined to survive. And over time, things unfolded well, but it was, it was not linear, and it was, look, it was a an all in commitment, that's for sure.

David Novak 28:42

And you know, one of the things that I was interested when I was doing my research is that, you know, in an industry where, you know, people just moved from one company to another company, you were able to keep your people for a long time. You had the staff that stayed with you over 15 years. I mean, you know, what was your key there? Because, you know, you're you're intense. I mean, you've got sharp elbows. I mean, you know, how do you keep these people

Doug Hirsch 29:05

look? I think people realize that I was all in, that I wasn't asking anything of anyone, that I wasn't demanding of myself. And I think that's a really got to be a premise. I think that they I think that there was a purity to what we did. We didn't have meetings. There were times that we would meet, but a anyone could come to that meeting. Look, I wanted to know what the Secretary thought. There was transparency in our everyone got access to the positions. There was a culture of no bureaucracy. And of really, my goal was that I didn't have a sense of pride of authorship. It didn't matter if it was my idea or not. I wanted the best, most compelling, most rational ideas in our positions. And I think that I. Um, that was refreshing to people. And I think people believed that that I was being objective. They may, at times, have disagreed with me, but I don't think they question my motives. And I think that the the lack of you know, there was no form over content. We didn't have committees. There's that great line that that a camel is a horse made by committee. I mean, I think that, you know, when you start getting committees and people, you know, sort of responsible for other people, there's, there's a lot that goes awry, and that is that undermines what you're trying to create. So I think that there was just a big belief in our in our process and in ourselves, and I think that that's why people did turn down Ken Griffin, who was trying to hire my people for years.

David Novak 30:58

You know, one of your great accomplishments, in addition to building a fantastic firm, is that you started Wall Street's first investment conference, you know, which is it became renowned as the as Wall Street's Woodstock, you know, everybody wanted to come to it, you know. And it was called the sone conference, you know. Tell us a story behind that.

Doug Hirsch 31:20

I worked with Ira sone in the early, early 90s, I guess he was in his late 20s. He was re diagnosed with a cancer that he had had as a young kid, and in the span of six months, this vicious sarcoma, he took his left arm, his his wife had their first child. He lost his left lung, and then he died. And it was a just horrible, horrible time. I during that time when he was able, he was coming to the office before and after he was in the hospital. At the end, he obviously was at the hospital. I became friendly with his parents. His parents were trying to raise money for the Hackensack pediatric cancer wing, the tomorrow's Children's Fund at in New Jersey, and they asked if I would get involved and how we could raise money. And I got a couple friends to join me, and we came up with the idea of having an investment conference. Ira was incredibly passionate about the business, and we thought that, look, we certainly didn't envision what was going to unfold, but we thought that it would be maybe a clever idea to try to have people come together, make some donation, hear people's investment ideas. It would be a charity that kind of paid for itself, and I found myself, on some level, just incredibly committed to make this work. And the first year, look, this is at a time in 1995 CNBC had just started. So, I mean, hedge fund managers were not TV personalities. An investment conference. When we first announced it, people didn't even really know what what we meant. Our first year, I think we had 70 people attend. We got a bunch of our friends to speak, and we were, you know, begging people to attend, just so that we weren't going to embarrass ourselves. And it took a couple years to get a little momentum. I think. The second year was in the basement of a midtown hotel, and the air condition didn't work, and it was, it was a debacle. But the third year

David Novak 33:40

now Doug, you have like 12 zone conferences, 12

Doug Hirsch 33:44

zone conferences in five continents. And it's, it's really taken off. And look, it's been, it's certainly turned into something beyond what we could have hoped. We've raised over $100 million I

David Novak 34:01

was watching billions, and they referenced the sown conference. And basically, people come in and bring their ideas, right Doug, and then you basically can move markets with a zone conference. I mean, people will, you know, say, Hey, this is really going to be a biggie. And boom, we

Doug Hirsch 34:16

moved markets quite a bit. We actually had a couple stocks that were held the next morning because they couldn't open them. We then knew that we were, that we had arrived when, when we were moving markets before the conference, meaning stocks were moving in anticipation of whether or not a speaker would would mention that stock. So, yeah, it's been, it's been fun to see it unfold, you know.

David Novak 34:42

And Ed, I understand, I think I have this right, but the world class chess player, one of the greatest in history, Magnus Carlson, yes, we attended one of the conferences, and didn't you play him in a chess match? I mean,

Doug Hirsch 34:57

yeah, so he more than attended. He did. An exhibition. He played three people blindfolded. I did on a separate occasion. I did play an alternate move match with Magnus as my partner, against Kasparov. That was, that was certainly a highlight for me.

David Novak 35:16

What did you learn? You know, watching this guy in action, I mean, you know, what did he do that made you want to get better at what you do? He

Doug Hirsch 35:24

is, look, I don't some I think you can learn some things from Magnus, but you can also be reminded of some things from by Magnus. He, I think you're just reminded that there's levels of everything. I think there's 600 million. There's over 600 million people in the world who play chess, which is staggering. But you know when you think about it, you can play at any age. You can play with any physical disability you might have. There are cultures in, certainly Russia and Asia, Eastern Europe, that that chess is the most important game there is, and certainly the barometer of intelligence. And here's a guy who has, you know, is arguably the best player in the history of the game. And he is, has been called the Mozart of chess since he was, you know, probably seven years old. He instinctively is so sound. But he's also incredibly imaginative and and willing to think about, you know, positions and sacrifices that others aren't. And, you know, it's interesting. I was chatting with his with his father. I mean, Magnus was when Magnus was four, he had memorized all of the countries and capitals and states of of everywhere and their populations. He would play with Legos for for hours on a time. And then after he had built, you know, intricate, intricate, you know, contraptions, he would then guess what they weighed. And he was four years old. And, you know, his father was, you know, introduced him to chess because he saw in Magnus this incredible ability to concentrate. And his father also highlighted that, you know, if madness had grown up in, in Russia, where they're, they're seeking, or India, where they're, where they seek, these talented kids, and then they, you know, they steer them to, you know, effectively become, you know, child prodigies, where they're playing chess eight hours a day that, you know, if Magnus had been handled like that, you know, it would have ruined him. And that for Magnus, you know, his his commitment to chess was, was a sign of his genius. It wasn't a formula for it. And, you know, his father said that at dinners when he was six or seven years old, Magnus would take his food and eat at a separate area with a chess book. And I think that, you know, the takeaway for me has been, you know, this is a kid that was incredibly self taught, whose passion just dictated what he wanted to do. And and his his interests are narrow but incredibly deep. You know, you can look at games that he played when he was 10 years old, and the exact moves he made, and it's, it's, it's staggering. So, you know, he's inspiring it.

David Novak 38:14

And so you end up in 2015 Doug you, you actually shut down the Seneca fund to outside investors. You know, what drove that decision?

Doug Hirsch 38:25

I was the frog in the boiling water who didn't realize, you know, it took a long time to realize how hot it was, and I think that, you know, I finally realized that it was boiling. I had blinders on for so long. I had, I had been, you know, preoccupied with business regardless. I mean, I would be with with our kids, and, you know, I was thinking about the office. I would be playing golf on the weekend, and my head was in the office. And I really just realized that that I couldn't make the sacrifices anymore. I couldn't make the commitment I didn't want to I and I sort of felt like I was retiring from the NFL without CTE, and it was, you know, look, it was a very tough decision in that I wasn't returning outside capital because I wanted to specifically do something else. I was returning outside capital because I didn't want to run money anymore. Run outside money anymore. I The, you know, absolute, incessant, self imposed pressure. They talk about a guy, you know, the best days are, you know, the day you buy a boat and the day you sell a boat. Well, for me, the best decision I ever made was getting in the business, and then the second best was getting out. You

David Novak 39:47

know, when you have such a high intensity job like that, I mean, which you had, you know, you know, I've had people tell me that it takes a long time to get the adrenaline to leave your body. I mean. Know, how do you manage that kind of speed and intensity today?

Doug Hirsch 40:05

Professional pickleball? David, I don't know. Look, I've always been focused and driven. And there I'm, you know, and I'm a I'm also, I'm a curious person. There's, I have not been bored. I it's been great. I feel, you know, it was an incredibly liberating decision. I, you know, going back to Seneca, I do value my time. Speaking of Soane Richard rainwater spoke, you know, the legendary investors spoke years ago, and he commented that he had visited his father on his father's deathbed, and Richard was very successful at the time, and Richard's father said to Richard, are you doing what you want to do? Because you're going to run out of time before you run out of money. And look, I feel that I am. Look, I'm so much more in the present now I'm enjoying myself a lot more. You know, I feel fortunate to to be able to make the decision.

David Novak 41:07

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Doug Hirsch in just a moment. Talking to Doug, I'm reminded of my conversation with Stanley Druckenmiller, who's widely regarded as the number one investor in the world, and despite all drug success, he was quick to talk about the importance of learning from your failures.

Stan Druckenmiller 41:28

These successful people have all failed. They learn from their failures. Probably the most famous commencement speech ever was Steve Jobs speech at Stanford, when he talked about failure, and I would just say that a Admit that you've had failures, and then go back and analyze those failures and why they happened, and learn from them. The people that aren't self aware look self aware, people like myself, and I do think I'm self aware. I've had a lot of failures, but I use them to learn from, as opposed to pretend they didn't happen. If you pretend they didn't happen, they're going to keep repeating themselves. So I would say that's the main thing, is admit your failures and then learn from their failures.

David Novak 42:14

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Stanley, episode 101. Here on how leaders lead. How do you cultivate your creativity and imagination? You know, because you're obviously, they're well read. I mean, you know, what do you do that really, throughout your life, that's really driven and driven imagination. You've used that word three or four times in this conversation.

Doug Hirsch 42:38

I do enjoy reading. I do enjoy thinking. I've found chess to be shockingly fulfilling. You know, it's a game where you can explain the rules to a 10 year old in 10 minutes. And there are fascinating novelties that that continue to unfold. I think that I don't know. I'm curious. I look, I don't know. You know, I think the curiosity is a hugely important thing, both in business and in life. And if you're not curious, the days are very long.

David Novak 43:15

I agree with that. You know, this has been so much fun, Doug, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this?

Doug Hirsch 43:23

Probably not, but go ahead. Okay,

David Novak 43:26

the three words that others would use to describe you,

Doug Hirsch 43:29

focused, driven, trustworthy. If

David Novak 43:35

you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be?

Doug Hirsch 43:39

Connor McDavid, he's a hockey player. David,

David Novak 43:43

I know. I know you're a badass. No question about that. Either. You don't get it. Okay? Your biggest pet peeve my

Doug Hirsch 43:50

kids overusing and misusing the word like,

David Novak 43:54

who would play you in a movie?

Doug Hirsch 43:56

I got to go with Dougie fresh. Everyone calls me doggy. So that's it. Would be a comedy.

David Novak 44:00

What's the number of teeth you lost playing hockey?

Doug Hirsch 44:03

One and a half. But they're the front the front ones.

David Novak 44:08

Who's the most famous tennis player you've taken down in a pickleball tournament? Rusty,

Doug Hirsch 44:12

so big. Who is a pro? He'll be flattered to hear that, but it's probably

David Novak 44:19

true. You get two front row tickets to anything you want. Where are you going and who are you gonna take?

Doug Hirsch 44:25

Stanley Cup Finals with my son?

David Novak 44:27

What's something about Jersey you'd only know if you were from there where to sit at

Doug Hirsch 44:31

the stone pony when you're hoping to see Springsteen.

David Novak 44:35

What's the one thing that you do just for you?

Doug Hirsch 44:38

Chess. Chess is my mistress. What's

David Novak 44:40

your most prized possession?

Doug Hirsch 44:42

I have a, I got my photo taken with Bobby Orr when I was 10 years old. And we have a, it turns out we have a mutual friend, and a year ago, the friend introduced us. So when I went to see Bobby, I brought the photo. Him when I was from 50 years ago, and we recreated the photo 50 years later. So it's he got a big kick out of it

David Novak 45:07

that sounds priceless. Now, if I turned on your radio in your car, what would I hear?

Doug Hirsch 45:12

Ooh, podcasts or classic rock. What's

David Novak 45:16

something about you? A few people would know. It's no secret

Doug Hirsch 45:18

that I don't know anything about cars, but my first job was actually working at a gas station. I was 14, and I was totally incompetent. I At the time the the gas caps were not connected to the cars, and I probably had a dozen gas caps from from cars that had driven. When I still have the gas caps I would I would cuff checking the oil on cars that I couldn't figure out where the oil was, and I would, I would just tell them to better get it checked next time.

David Novak 45:48

What's one of your daily rituals? Doug, something that you never miss, sunscreen. I wish I would have done albino. I wish I would have done that. All right, yeah, we're out of the lightning round. Great. Just a few more questions. I'll let you go. Here. Get back to your pickleball. You know prowess. You know your partners with Dr Holly Anderson. She's a great spouse of yours, and you know, I actually interviewed her on Episode 120 of this podcast. And I got to tell you, I when I think of the two of you, I think you may just be one of the top power couples in America. I mean, how do you, how do you make it work?

Doug Hirsch 46:27

First, I won the lottery when, when she said, Yes. Second, look, it's, it's, it's challenging, because they're, you know, both careers were pretty required big sacrifices, but I think, you know, trying to find some sense of balance in terms of of things at an early stage. Look we were, we knew that we couldn't have kids when we were younger. I would have been a horrible parent in my 20s or even early 30s. I think balance is a myth at that age, but I think mutual respect and trying to to keep things light and appreciate humor. What's

David Novak 47:13

your unfinished business as you look forward? Doug, I got

Doug Hirsch 47:18

to win a pickleball championship for Larry and my goal is not to be a burden on our kids.

David Novak 47:27

You know, speaking to kids, you know, what's one piece of advice that someone gave you that you'd want to give your two kids?

Doug Hirsch 47:34

I don't I think the importance of humor and of keeping things in perspective and lightness it is so there's so many challenges to to our kids and their generation, and social media has has increased the stakes of everything and created these curated lives and and, you Know, and just got envy on steroids. So I think just trying to to appreciate irony and to appreciate humor.

David Novak 48:08

Give me a specific example of how humor has worked with one of your kids. You know, one

Doug Hirsch 48:13

story that recently resurfaced is that both of our kids are dyslexic, and that's a tough plight for a kid, and requires a lot of work, and standardized tests can often be be very challenging. And I remember taking our daughter to to a standardized test, and I had shared with her she knew the story years you know from years ago that I think that the first and only book I had read by the time I was 15 was or on ice, which was a, effectively, almost a picture book of Bobby Orr. And she always found that kind of entertaining. So on the in the cab ride to the test, I brought the book, and I brought the book out, and she smiled, and I showed it to her, and I showed her on page 12, you know. And now I put on my elbow pads, and I was showing her, I was telling her that how I this is, this is the book that that made me fall in love with the written word and that this was, you know, this is why I became such a fan of Hemingway, because the writing was so concise. And when we got to to the to the test center, she gave me a huge hug and thanked me. And it was clear that, you know, that the stakes were less than before the cab ride, and that the there was perspective. And I think that humor is often underappreciated. You know?

David Novak 49:31

I think when I think of humor, it obviously starts with H. The other thing, it starts with the H is heart. And one thing I'll say about you, Doug, you have a huge heart. I mean, you know, you started the stone conference, and you've raised over 100 millions in for cancer and and just on a personal level, you know, the struggles that I had with my wife, Wendy. You, you, you were always the, you know, one of the first to reach out and ask me how I was doing, or how she's doing. And. And same when she passed. And, you know, I think that heart is a big part of what makes you go, you know, last question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

Doug Hirsch 50:12

The most successful team in the in the history of sports has been the New Zealand All Blacks, and they have their mantra is sweep the shed. And what it means is that nothing is too small, even for their superstars. And I think that that's a huge thing. I mean, we've got, you know, CEOs who have their own elevators, and they're so, you know, disconnected. And how can the culture there possibly work? I think that you know, you know, who do you want to be at a foxhole with? You know, there's that great story, the great joke about Lufthansa. So the Lufthansa pilot is speaking over the loud, over the loudspeaker that we we've just lost our second engine, but we've been trained for this. We're okay. Please do not worry. We have everything under control. We've, we've been, we've been totally prepared for this. And he taking them through and they land in the middle of the ocean, and he's reassuring everybody, and I'm your leader, we're good. And then he says, everyone you know, okay, everyone who can swim, please move over to the right wing, and everyone who can't swim. Thank you for flying Lufthansa. You know, I think that people know if you're in it with them or not, and you can't fake it. I mean, that's what made Messier so good. That's what made that's what makes leaders

David Novak 51:35

well. And you're, you're an excellent leader. And I thank you so much, Doug for taking the time to be on this show, and I hope you win that pickleball championship with your Arizona team, because poor Larry Fitzgerald, you know, he needs some money.

Doug Hirsch 51:50

Thanks for having me.

David Novak 51:57

Let me tell you, the big guy upstairs broke the mold when he made Doug, and I'm glad you got a chance to learn from him today and see how he makes excellence a habit. You know, excellence is a word we tend to throw around a lot in the business world, but when you stop and unpack it, you realize excellent isn't just a standard you aim for, nor is it merely a synonym for talent. Excellence is a habit, as you can see from Doug's remarkable career. It's what happens when you get your priorities straight, make sacrifices and stay disciplined, even when it's hard. This week, ask yourself where you'd like to see more excellence in your work, then consider how your current priorities and discipline might need to change in order to make it happen. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that excellence is a habit. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Jared Belsky, the CEO of Acadia, which Ad Age named its performance agency of the year, sometimes

Speaker 1 53:01

larger entities have this thing called a dysfunction tax, and that you build up all these strange meetings and politics where people are spending half their day making PowerPoints for some boss they don't even know. Like we're just taking all that waste of dysfunction and investing it in obsessing about our clients and our employees. So be sure

David Novak 53:20

to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I may get a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. You.

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