[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_138":-5,"_139":-5,"_140":141,"_142":143,"_144":145},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3142/listen-more-than-you-speak","id",3142,"title","Listen more than you speak","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.500\nListen more, leaders like to hear themselves talk.\n\n2\n00:00:03.500 --> 00:00:06.860\nI am, I mean, I do too, but if you're not listening\n\n3\n00:00:06.860 --> 00:00:10.340\nto your team, to the people on the front lines,\n\n4\n00:00:10.340 --> 00:00:13.080\nto your customers, so if you're ahead of a retail brand\n\n5\n00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.700\nand you're not talking to people that are at point of sale,\n\n6\n00:00:15.700 --> 00:00:18.220\nthat are busing the tables, that are serving the clients\n\n7\n00:00:18.220 --> 00:00:20.400\nin the stores, if you're not listening to customer\n\n8\n00:00:20.400 --> 00:00:22.060\nsupport lines, if you're not understanding\n\n9\n00:00:22.060 --> 00:00:24.220\nwhat your customer wants from you,\n\n10\n00:00:24.220 --> 00:00:26.420\nand you're not listening to your team members,\n\n11\n00:00:26.420 --> 00:00:28.260\nyou're not gonna be a very effective leader\n\n12\n00:00:28.260 --> 00:00:29.100\nin today's world.\n\n13\n00:00:29.100 --> 00:00:30.100\nYou just aren't.\n\n14\n00:00:30.100 --> 00:00:31.860\nListening is a powerful tool.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",3589379,"end_time",3621414,"keywords","Listening, communication, customer support, frontline","slug","listen-more-than-you-speak","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","yeRqI4GckShBuXo1czh01wjCDv7HYUbObBABBUjqdn5E","mux_asset_id","O8qebxedzDch11PJDOTi5B00Gnyes7Ueh4AWsjU2yus8","leader_id",256,"episode_id",408,"updated_at","2026-01-16T16:58:59.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3142/listen-more-than-you-speak","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_102":103,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_25":108,"_109":110,"_61":111,"_58":111,"_112":113,"_68":114,"_39":115,"_116":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_117":118,"_90":119,"_44":120,"_121":122,"_123":124,"_46":-5,"_125":126,"_127":128,"_94":129,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":-5,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_76":77,"_78":79,"_80":81,"_82":83,"_84":-5,"_85":-5,"_86":87,"_88":89,"_90":-5,"_46":-5,"_91":92,"_93":-5,"_94":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Step back to move forward","step-back-to-move-forward","Listen to this leadership podcast with Gregg Renfrew, Founder and CEO of Counter, and discover why, sometimes, you need to let go to unlock new growth.","summary","

Imagine this: you build a company from scratch, sell it at a billion-dollar valuation, get ousted, and watch it crumble under new leadership…

Then you buy it back, shut it down, rebrand it, relaunch it – and grow it all over again.

That’s exactly what Gregg Renfrew, the Founder and CEO of clean beauty brand Counter (formerly Beautycounter) has done.

In this episode, she opens up about the emotional and strategic rollercoaster behind one of the most dramatic stories in recent business history. She shares what she’s learned about product development, resilience, and why, sometimes, you’ve got to take a step back if you want to move forward.

You’ll also learn:

The power of emotional connection – and emotional distance
Why you probably have too many products
How Martha Stewart taught her NOT to lead
Her no-BS take on beauty standards (hint: it’s actually a lesson in confidence)

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.240\nHello friends and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead. Today we've\n\n2\n00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:05.520\ngot Greg Renfrew\n\n3\n00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:09.500\non the show. She's a founder and CEO of a clean beauty brand called Counter.\n\n4\n00:00:09.500 --> 00:00:10.240\nAnd in this episode,\n\n5\n00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:14.860\nshe opens up about the emotional and strategic roller coaster behind one of the\n\n6\n00:00:14.860 --> 00:00:15.760\nmost dramatic\n\n7\n00:00:15.760 --> 00:00:20.640\nstories and recent business history. What I love about Greg is that she is a\n\n8\n00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:21.200\nwoman\n\n9\n00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:25.550\nleader that leads with her emotions, but she also knows when to create that\n\n10\n00:00:25.550 --> 00:00:26.640\nemotional distance\n\n11\n00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:29.970\nbetween her and what's going on in the business. And I know you're going to\n\n12\n00:00:29.970 --> 00:00:31.760\nlearn a ton about how\n\n13\n00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:36.980\nto lead well in difficult situations through this conversation with Greg. Hope\n\n14\n00:00:36.980 --> 00:00:37.680\nyou enjoy it.\n\n15\n00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:41.460\nIt was really, really hard. It was really humbling. It was really humiliating\n\n16\n00:00:41.460 --> 00:00:42.080\npublicly. It was like,\n\n17\n00:00:42.080 --> 00:00:45.560\nwe just made this huge announcement. I'm like this unicorn entrepreneur and it\n\n18\n00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:46.080\n's a billion\n\n19\n00:00:46.080 --> 00:00:49.520\ndollar valuation and like, I'm the next thing and then I'm out.\n\n20\n00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:58.800\nYou know, Greg, I got to ask you, I'm looking in the background, I see this\n\n21\n00:00:58.800 --> 00:00:59.600\nsign that says,\n\n22\n00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:04.970\noh baby, is there anything of significance about that or is that just your\n\n23\n00:01:04.970 --> 00:01:05.680\npersonality?\n\n24\n00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:10.400\nWell, it is actually my personality, but this is actually not my house. I'm\n\n25\n00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:11.120\nliving\n\n26\n00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:15.520\nin a rental property because I was in a Pacific Palisades and unfortunately,\n\n27\n00:01:15.520 --> 00:01:19.600\nwe had a horrible fire as you know in January. But this house was filled with a\n\n28\n00:01:19.600 --> 00:01:20.400\nlot of art and a\n\n29\n00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:26.750\nlot of it's really fun. I, I like it. It fits your personality. You know, if we\n\n30\n00:01:26.750 --> 00:01:27.680\nwere toasting you\n\n31\n00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:33.840\nright now, what would we be raising our glasses to? Perseverance. I think that\n\n32\n00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:34.880\nif you talk to anyone\n\n33\n00:01:34.880 --> 00:01:37.950\nthat I'm close with right now, they would say like that I'm totally crazy that\n\n34\n00:01:37.950 --> 00:01:38.880\nI've gone back\n\n35\n00:01:38.880 --> 00:01:42.870\nat it a second time and people are toasting to our future success and\n\n36\n00:01:42.870 --> 00:01:44.160\nacknowledging, you know,\n\n37\n00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:48.680\nsort of the grit and perseverance associated with starting the same company\n\n38\n00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:50.000\ntwice or a new company\n\n39\n00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:53.510\nfrom an old, I should say. Yeah, well, we're going to get into that as we go\n\n40\n00:01:53.510 --> 00:01:53.840\nthrough this\n\n41\n00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:58.720\nconversation, but you know, the cosmetic industry is hugely profitable. You\n\n42\n00:01:58.720 --> 00:02:00.320\nknow, almost every woman\n\n43\n00:02:00.320 --> 00:02:05.570\nand some men, they'll go almost to any extent to look youthful. Everyone's\n\n44\n00:02:05.570 --> 00:02:06.880\ngoing to be tuning into\n\n45\n00:02:06.880 --> 00:02:12.000\nthis episode and hoping they find, you know, get some sort of inside look on\n\n46\n00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:13.360\nthe next products\n\n47\n00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:18.730\nthat they should be using. So, so first, what does clean beauty mean and why is\n\n48\n00:02:18.730 --> 00:02:20.080\nit so important?\n\n49\n00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:24.320\nWell, first of all, there is just to go back to what you just said, there is no\n\n50\n00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:24.880\n, there is no\n\n51\n00:02:24.880 --> 00:02:29.570\ngreat secret. So, you know, the best beauty secret I can give you is to drink a\n\n52\n00:02:29.570 --> 00:02:30.480\nlot of water and get\n\n53\n00:02:30.480 --> 00:02:34.880\na lot of sleep. That's the truth. And some of it comes down to genetics. But\n\n54\n00:02:34.880 --> 00:02:36.160\nfor me, clean beauty\n\n55\n00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:41.620\nis really important because there are chemicals of concern, toxic chemicals\n\n56\n00:02:41.620 --> 00:02:42.560\nthat are in certain\n\n57\n00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:46.540\nof our products. And that doesn't matter whether it's a skincare product, a\n\n58\n00:02:46.540 --> 00:02:47.360\nsunscreen product,\n\n59\n00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:51.730\nlipstick. There are all these chemicals that have been introduced into commerce\n\n60\n00:02:51.730 --> 00:02:52.400\nover the last\n\n61\n00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.050\n50, 60 years that have never been tested for safety and human health. And they\n\n62\n00:02:56.050 --> 00:02:56.640\n're in all the\n\n63\n00:02:56.640 --> 00:03:00.640\nproducts we put on our bodies every single day. And so to me, clean is about\n\n64\n00:03:00.640 --> 00:03:02.320\nproviding high\n\n65\n00:03:02.320 --> 00:03:05.530\nperformance products that are also significantly safer for your health. And I\n\n66\n00:03:05.530 --> 00:03:06.480\nthink, you know,\n\n67\n00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:10.090\nI don't know about you, but I think your health is your greatest asset. And so,\n\n68\n00:03:10.090 --> 00:03:10.800\ndoing anything you\n\n69\n00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.880\ncan to take care of it is important. Now, you're absolutely right about it. I\n\n70\n00:03:14.880 --> 00:03:15.040\nthink\n\n71\n00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:17.840\nthey it's sort of a trite face, but if you don't have your health, you don't\n\n72\n00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:18.800\nhave anything. So,\n\n73\n00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.130\nwhat you working on is extremely important. You know, and you're in the\n\n74\n00:03:22.130 --> 00:03:23.760\nbusiness of making\n\n75\n00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:27.760\npeople feel great about how they look. What's something that you've done\n\n76\n00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:29.120\nrecently that's made\n\n77\n00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:33.360\nyou feel great, right? You know, I think the one thing that I've been doing for\n\n78\n00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:34.320\nmyself lately in\n\n79\n00:03:34.320 --> 00:03:37.130\ngeneral, there are lots of things that have made me feel great, letters of\n\n80\n00:03:37.130 --> 00:03:38.720\npeople supporting my\n\n81\n00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:42.960\nefforts in telling me that they're behind us in counter our new company. But I\n\n82\n00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:43.600\nalso think like\n\n83\n00:03:43.600 --> 00:03:48.180\nI've been incredibly focused on exercise for the last year and a half. And I\n\n84\n00:03:48.180 --> 00:03:49.600\nfeel physically so much\n\n85\n00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:53.080\nbetter. And it makes me so much more confident. So I would encourage everyone\n\n86\n00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:54.000\nto get out there and,\n\n87\n00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.880\nyou know, get on the three amplitude or get on the treadmill or get out and go\n\n88\n00:03:56.880 --> 00:03:57.680\nfor a hike. It really\n\n89\n00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:03.530\ndoes matter. I echo that. I mean, that exercise every day that builds your\n\n90\n00:04:03.530 --> 00:04:04.560\nenergy and keeps you\n\n91\n00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:08.640\ngoing. You mentioned we'd be toasting you for your perseverance because you've\n\n92\n00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:09.760\nhad some high highs\n\n93\n00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:13.740\nand you've had some low lows. And I want to talk more about that. But you know,\n\n94\n00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:14.400\nwhat's the story\n\n95\n00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.480\nfrom your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today?\n\n96\n00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:23.720\nI came from a family where both of my parents had come from relatively well-\n\n97\n00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:25.680\npositioned families.\n\n98\n00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:31.640\nAnd yet my father was first a Wall Street banker and then he was\n\n99\n00:04:31.640 --> 00:04:34.320\nentrepreneurial and did quite a\n\n100\n00:04:34.320 --> 00:04:37.810\nfew things that ended up not being successful. They were genuinely too far\n\n101\n00:04:37.810 --> 00:04:38.880\nahead of their time.\n\n102\n00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:45.920\nOne was like videotaping houses in our, you know, suburban community wondering\n\n103\n00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:46.400\nwhy I know\n\n104\n00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:49.210\nthem want to spend a day driving around looking houses that they wouldn't have\n\n105\n00:04:49.210 --> 00:04:50.000\nliked. It's sort of\n\n106\n00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:53.980\nlike what realtor.com. And you would never today like look at houses unless you\n\n107\n00:04:53.980 --> 00:04:54.320\nlooked at that\n\n108\n00:04:54.320 --> 00:04:58.570\nonline. But it was too far ahead at the current event. And so as such, we lost\n\n109\n00:04:58.570 --> 00:04:59.520\nmost of our family's\n\n110\n00:04:59.520 --> 00:05:06.010\nmoney. And I think it really, it really shaped me in terms of looking at first\n\n111\n00:05:06.010 --> 00:05:06.560\nand foremost,\n\n112\n00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:12.320\nthe importance of being focused on profitability or having reserves in the bank\n\n113\n00:05:12.320 --> 00:05:13.280\n, which is really\n\n114\n00:05:13.280 --> 00:05:17.440\nhelped me lead from a place of understanding that profitability matters and\n\n115\n00:05:17.440 --> 00:05:18.080\nthat money\n\n116\n00:05:18.080 --> 00:05:22.850\ndoes matter with respect to business, but also really trying to be ahead of the\n\n117\n00:05:22.850 --> 00:05:23.760\ncurve as a leader,\n\n118\n00:05:23.760 --> 00:05:28.560\nbut not so far ahead of the curve that you're not, that you're actually ahead\n\n119\n00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:29.200\nof the consumer\n\n120\n00:05:29.200 --> 00:05:32.320\nto the point where they can't understand what you're trying to do. And I think\n\n121\n00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:33.280\nthose two things\n\n122\n00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:37.630\nhave shaped the way that I look at business. And so I try to lead from a place\n\n123\n00:05:37.630 --> 00:05:38.880\nof being in\n\n124\n00:05:38.880 --> 00:05:42.500\nservice of consumers and our customers and knowing where they are and trying to\n\n125\n00:05:42.500 --> 00:05:43.200\nmeet them where they\n\n126\n00:05:43.200 --> 00:05:47.550\nare at that moment in time. Yeah, absolutely. And when did you first discover\n\n127\n00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:48.080\nthat you,\n\n128\n00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:53.480\nyou were really destined to be an entrepreneur? You know, I've had a side gig\n\n129\n00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:54.640\ngoing since I was,\n\n130\n00:05:54.640 --> 00:05:59.320\nI don't know, 10 years old. I always wanted to have independence from the\n\n131\n00:05:59.320 --> 00:06:00.160\nearliest days.\n\n132\n00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:04.240\nI liked having my own pocket money. And again, going back to the fact that we\n\n133\n00:06:04.240 --> 00:06:04.880\nhad some financial\n\n134\n00:06:04.880 --> 00:06:09.550\ninsecurity at my home, if I wanted, I remember there was a, I wanted Vidal, it\n\n135\n00:06:09.550 --> 00:06:10.720\nwas not Vidal,\n\n136\n00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.400\nSassoon jeans, like these jeans that I wanted so badly. My mother was like,\n\n137\n00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:14.880\nwell, you're not\n\n138\n00:06:14.880 --> 00:06:18.000\nto figure out how to make the money. And so when I was little, I would babysit,\n\n139\n00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:18.560\nI would cater\n\n140\n00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:21.680\ndinner parties, I would do the dishes at the end of dinner parties. And I think\n\n141\n00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:22.720\nby the time I got\n\n142\n00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:27.070\nto college, I knew I had it in me to see opportunity to earn money or to\n\n143\n00:06:27.070 --> 00:06:29.040\nprovide solutions for things\n\n144\n00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.660\nthat weren't working as well as they could. Or, you know, for me, it was like,\n\n145\n00:06:32.660 --> 00:06:33.520\nhow do I use\n\n146\n00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:38.080\nmy brain as a means to then to get to what I want to do. And I, that really, my\n\n147\n00:06:38.080 --> 00:06:38.960\nfirst company I\n\n148\n00:06:38.960 --> 00:06:44.340\nlaunched was in Nantucket cleaning houses when I was like 19 years old. And so\n\n149\n00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:46.080\nearly on, really\n\n150\n00:06:46.080 --> 00:06:50.300\nearly on, I was always doing it. Another company you found it was the wedding\n\n151\n00:06:50.300 --> 00:06:51.360\nlist, which, you know,\n\n152\n00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:57.200\nwas your first big sale as an entrepreneur. Tell us about that.\n\n153\n00:06:57.200 --> 00:07:02.000\nWell, prior to the wedding list, I started a bridesmaid's dress company with a\n\n154\n00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:02.640\nfriend on the\n\n155\n00:07:02.640 --> 00:07:06.870\nside. I just hated all the dresses I was being asked to wear. And you're, it's\n\n156\n00:07:06.870 --> 00:07:07.440\nsort of like an\n\n157\n00:07:07.440 --> 00:07:11.790\nimpossible conundrum because the bride wants the girls, you know, and guys do,\n\n158\n00:07:11.790 --> 00:07:12.720\nthey want all their\n\n159\n00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.360\nbridesmaids and ushers to look a certain way. But, you know, you don't have any\n\n160\n00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:16.480\nmoney to buy these\n\n161\n00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.360\nclothes because you're going to weddings and you're just out of college and you\n\n162\n00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:19.760\ndon't have a lot\n\n163\n00:07:19.760 --> 00:07:23.840\nof disposable income. So I saw this opportunity to sell bridesmaids dresses\n\n164\n00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:25.200\nfast forward. I was\n\n165\n00:07:25.200 --> 00:07:29.570\ntransferred to London with my day job and I tried to sell this concept into a\n\n166\n00:07:29.570 --> 00:07:30.480\nwoman who had a company\n\n167\n00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:35.280\ncalled the wedding list, which was a registry concept in the UK. And she said,\n\n168\n00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:35.760\nwe don't use\n\n169\n00:07:35.760 --> 00:07:39.060\nbridesmaids here in the way that you do in the US, but let's keep in touch. She\n\n170\n00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:39.840\nand I kept in touch\n\n171\n00:07:39.840 --> 00:07:43.790\nand we, when we brought that concept to the States, it was one of the first\n\n172\n00:07:43.790 --> 00:07:44.560\ntrue multi-channel\n\n173\n00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.750\nretail businesses in the world. And I spent, I spent like months going around\n\n174\n00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:49.920\nSandhill Road to all the\n\n175\n00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.870\nventure capitalists trying to explain the convenience of online purchasing and\n\n176\n00:07:53.870 --> 00:07:54.800\ngoing to a bunch of men\n\n177\n00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:57.950\nsaying, people want to buy wedding presents online. These guys looked at me\n\n178\n00:07:57.950 --> 00:07:59.280\nlike I was totally crazy,\n\n179\n00:07:59.280 --> 00:08:04.310\nbut that whole experience of, again, being out there, putting myself out there,\n\n180\n00:08:04.310 --> 00:08:05.040\nlooking at how\n\n181\n00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:09.680\nthings were going to go. And ultimately, Martha Stewart took notice, which was,\n\n182\n00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:10.640\nwhich was incredibly\n\n183\n00:08:10.640 --> 00:08:15.520\nflattering to me because she is one of the world's greatest marketers and the\n\n184\n00:08:15.520 --> 00:08:16.560\nability to sell my\n\n185\n00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.540\ncompany to her was, in many ways, a dream. It was also really hard. Martha's\n\n186\n00:08:20.540 --> 00:08:21.840\nreally difficult,\n\n187\n00:08:21.840 --> 00:08:24.800\nreally, really difficult. I love her to face as much. She's not an easy woman.\n\n188\n00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:25.600\nAnd so I learned\n\n189\n00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:29.580\nso much in selling my company to her and working with her. You know, Martha\n\n190\n00:08:29.580 --> 00:08:30.880\nStewart obviously is\n\n191\n00:08:30.880 --> 00:08:34.360\nan icon. And what's the biggest lesson that she taught you if you could just\n\n192\n00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.160\npick one? To lead from\n\n193\n00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:41.320\na place of humility and not to lead from a place of fear. I think that Martha,\n\n194\n00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:43.520\nand again, this,\n\n195\n00:08:43.520 --> 00:08:46.820\nwe all know that management and leadership changes over time. But I think it\n\n196\n00:08:46.820 --> 00:08:48.160\nwas a time where people,\n\n197\n00:08:48.160 --> 00:08:51.280\nyou know, the leader was in charge and they just told you what to do. And I\n\n198\n00:08:51.280 --> 00:08:52.160\nbelieve in servant\n\n199\n00:08:52.160 --> 00:08:56.140\nleadership where you're actually aiming to support those you serve rather than\n\n200\n00:08:56.140 --> 00:08:56.640\nlooking at like\n\n201\n00:08:56.640 --> 00:09:00.420\neveryone's there to serve you. I learned that lesson really early on. I don't\n\n202\n00:09:00.420 --> 00:09:01.120\nthink it instills\n\n203\n00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.410\nconfidence and making people lack confidence. I see this on the sports field\n\n204\n00:09:05.410 --> 00:09:06.320\nall the time too.\n\n205\n00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.600\nYou see, there are different types of coaches. There are coaches that say,\n\n206\n00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:14.090\nI know you can do this and I expect you to jump that high or you're an idiot.\n\n207\n00:09:14.090 --> 00:09:15.040\nYou screw that up.\n\n208\n00:09:15.040 --> 00:09:19.440\nAnd I think I believe in the, I have expectations. I want to see you jump that\n\n209\n00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:20.400\nhigh. Martha didn't\n\n210\n00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:24.190\nlead from that place and I learned that from her. And, you know, fast forward\n\n211\n00:09:24.190 --> 00:09:25.440\nin that you pioneered\n\n212\n00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:29.790\nthe category of clean beauty, which you just described to us. And, you know,\n\n213\n00:09:29.790 --> 00:09:31.040\nhow did you muster up the\n\n214\n00:09:31.040 --> 00:09:35.120\ncourage, Greg, to go first, you know, to be that pioneer trying to sell\n\n215\n00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:36.480\nsomething that people,\n\n216\n00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:41.600\nyou know, is foreign to everybody because nobody done it. You know, I really\n\n217\n00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:42.880\ngoing back to the\n\n218\n00:09:42.880 --> 00:09:46.010\nquestion that you're asking me, you know, we were talking earlier a little bit\n\n219\n00:09:46.010 --> 00:09:47.840\nabout why clean\n\n220\n00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:53.690\nmatters. For me, I was the, the idea of beauty counter and the desire to create\n\n221\n00:09:53.690 --> 00:09:55.360\nclean beauty was\n\n222\n00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.980\nnot something that happened overnight. It was a series of events that happened\n\n223\n00:09:58.980 --> 00:09:59.440\nin my life\n\n224\n00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:03.400\nover a several year period, watching the film and the convenient truth and\n\n225\n00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:04.000\nbecoming impassioned\n\n226\n00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.980\nwith the environmental health movement. And then watching so many people, I\n\n227\n00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:08.720\nlove Get Sick. I was\n\n228\n00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.330\nin my 30s, watching friends getting diagnosed with different types of cancer,\n\n229\n00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:12.960\nlost a friend\n\n230\n00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.340\nto breast cancer, but it wasn't just women, women and men. I was watching so\n\n231\n00:10:16.340 --> 00:10:17.280\nmany people struggle\n\n232\n00:10:17.280 --> 00:10:21.840\nwith fertility or giving birth to kids with health issues. And so when I, when\n\n233\n00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:22.400\nI started to\n\n234\n00:10:22.400 --> 00:10:25.440\nrealize that there were all these toxic chemicals around me, I was able to make\n\n235\n00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:26.880\nchanges in my life,\n\n236\n00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:30.860\nswitching from plastic to glass, taking my shoes off at the door. You know,\n\n237\n00:10:30.860 --> 00:10:31.360\nalthough lots of things\n\n238\n00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:34.560\nyou can do, but when it came to skincare and personal care and cosmetic\n\n239\n00:10:34.560 --> 00:10:35.760\nproducts, there weren't any\n\n240\n00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:39.370\nproducts on the market that met my needs. There were all the incumbent brands\n\n241\n00:10:39.370 --> 00:10:40.320\nthat we've all known\n\n242\n00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.460\nand grown up with, you know, from, from sunscreen brands to deodorant brands to\n\n243\n00:10:44.460 --> 00:10:45.360\ntoothpaste, and they\n\n244\n00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.640\nwere filled with all these chemicals of concern. But then on the other end of\n\n245\n00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:49.440\nthe spectrum, you had\n\n246\n00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.230\nthese really eco-friendly, earthy brands that I thought weren't that appealing.\n\n247\n00:10:53.230 --> 00:10:53.920\nThey didn't work\n\n248\n00:10:53.920 --> 00:10:58.180\nvery well. They didn't look very good. And so I didn't think about it so much\n\n249\n00:10:58.180 --> 00:10:58.880\nas going first.\n\n250\n00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:02.860\nI thought about it as like, I think I can lead by example and do better. And I\n\n251\n00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:03.840\nthink we can\n\n252\n00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.560\ncreate a category within a saturated marketplace that proves that you can have\n\n253\n00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:09.280\ngreat products that\n\n254\n00:11:09.280 --> 00:11:12.700\npeople are going to be excited to use that are significantly safer for your\n\n255\n00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:13.680\nhealth. And to me,\n\n256\n00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:17.630\nthat was just an opportunity. It wasn't scary because you know, you led a\n\n257\n00:11:17.630 --> 00:11:18.240\nmassive company.\n\n258\n00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.600\nYou don't think about it as leading a massive company. It's just one day at a\n\n259\n00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:22.160\ntime starting\n\n260\n00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:26.600\nsomething small that ultimately grows. And you hope the people who think you're\n\n261\n00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:28.160\ncrazy will somehow\n\n262\n00:11:28.160 --> 00:11:32.140\nbuy into your vision and people did. Yeah. Well, one of the things that's\n\n263\n00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:33.280\nreally interesting is that\n\n264\n00:11:33.280 --> 00:11:38.650\nyou went in and you innovated in an existing category. You know, you talked\n\n265\n00:11:38.650 --> 00:11:39.280\nabout how your\n\n266\n00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:44.270\nfather had ideas that were ahead of the time. You know, what insights about\n\n267\n00:11:44.270 --> 00:11:45.600\nleadership can you\n\n268\n00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.880\nshare about, you know, how do you how do you disrupt an existing category?\n\n269\n00:11:50.880 --> 00:11:55.230\nI think there are a lot of mistakes in my opinion that are made. So a long time\n\n270\n00:11:55.230 --> 00:11:56.080\nago, I read a book,\n\n271\n00:11:56.080 --> 00:12:00.170\nthere was a book called Blue Ocean Strategy. And it was talking about that\n\n272\n00:12:00.170 --> 00:12:01.440\nbrand, Two Buck Chuck,\n\n273\n00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.400\nand and brands that had just kind of come into a saturated market and they\n\n274\n00:12:05.400 --> 00:12:06.320\ncarved out a space for\n\n275\n00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.280\nthemselves and they kind of changed an industry or they they caught everyone's\n\n276\n00:12:10.280 --> 00:12:11.040\nattention. For me,\n\n277\n00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:16.510\nlet me backtrack. When I was younger, one of my very first jobs, my second job\n\n278\n00:12:16.510 --> 00:12:17.200\nwas working for\n\n279\n00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:21.790\nXerox Corporation in sales, selling copiers and fax machines, getting the door\n\n280\n00:12:21.790 --> 00:12:22.560\nslammed in my face\n\n281\n00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:26.510\nand I'll never forget it. Xerox, they always said, don't compare us to Canon\n\n282\n00:12:26.510 --> 00:12:27.520\ncopiers. Speak to the\n\n283\n00:12:27.520 --> 00:12:31.600\nmerits of Xerox. It's not, it's unbecoming and it doesn't help you to speak\n\n284\n00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:32.480\ndetrimentally about\n\n285\n00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.270\nyour competitors. Don't worry about what they're doing, worry about what we're\n\n286\n00:12:35.270 --> 00:12:36.000\ndoing. And I think\n\n287\n00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:40.300\nwhen you go into a new category, going in without comparing, putting your blind\n\n288\n00:12:40.300 --> 00:12:41.120\ners on and saying,\n\n289\n00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:44.630\nwhat kind of company do I want to build? How do I want to serve my customer and\n\n290\n00:12:44.630 --> 00:12:45.360\nnot worry about,\n\n291\n00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:48.290\nlike, I don't pay attention to what people are doing in the BED industry. I\n\n292\n00:12:48.290 --> 00:12:49.600\nknow that sounds crazy,\n\n293\n00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:52.720\nbut I'm trying to focus on what we're doing and what I'm doing and how we do\n\n294\n00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:53.440\nsomething that is\n\n295\n00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:58.820\nreally appealing to our customer. And while you can compare data and products\n\n296\n00:12:58.820 --> 00:12:59.360\nand price points,\n\n297\n00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.640\nat the end of the day, if you're a copycat brand, you're not doing something\n\n298\n00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:03.040\nthat's really\n\n299\n00:13:03.040 --> 00:13:07.120\ndisruptive and innovative. You're just, you're just furthering someone else's\n\n300\n00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:07.760\nvision.\n\n301\n00:13:08.640 --> 00:13:13.280\nAbsolutely. And, you know, you were the pioneer and you're still pioneering and\n\n302\n00:13:13.280 --> 00:13:13.760\ntrying to break\n\n303\n00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:18.500\nnew ground. What's the biggest challenge you face being that trailblazer and\n\n304\n00:13:18.500 --> 00:13:19.520\ngoing first?\n\n305\n00:13:19.520 --> 00:13:25.760\nSo many, as you know, so many challenges. I think that one, people are able to\n\n306\n00:13:25.760 --> 00:13:26.240\nlook at your\n\n307\n00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.280\nsuccesses, but also look at your mistakes and make sure they don't make them.\n\n308\n00:13:29.280 --> 00:13:31.200\nThere's a lot of people\n\n309\n00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:35.700\nwho are able to take something that you did that was really innovative at the\n\n310\n00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:37.120\ntime, but just slightly\n\n311\n00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:41.100\nimprove upon it. Maybe I'm making this up. But in our industry, maybe there's a\n\n312\n00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:42.320\nscent that's trending\n\n313\n00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.920\nor a style of component or some sort of packaging that's on trend. And so they\n\n314\n00:13:45.920 --> 00:13:46.800\ncan kind of take the\n\n315\n00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:51.580\nbase of what you did and build upon it. They also can take your words and your\n\n316\n00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:52.560\nclaims and your\n\n317\n00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:56.540\npublic facing statements and advertising and they do their own iterations of it\n\n318\n00:13:56.540 --> 00:13:57.840\n. Like we created\n\n319\n00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.760\nthe first public facing never list, which was a list of ingredients that said\n\n320\n00:14:01.760 --> 00:14:02.480\nwe don't, we choose\n\n321\n00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.990\nnot to formulate with this. And then all of a sudden we saw the not a list and\n\n322\n00:14:05.990 --> 00:14:06.880\nno, no list and no,\n\n323\n00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:10.330\nyou know, I mean, it was just like, come up with your own terminology guys. Why\n\n324\n00:14:10.330 --> 00:14:10.960\nis everyone\n\n325\n00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.100\ncoughing us? But, you know, I guess it's a form of flattery, but it is hard to\n\n326\n00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:15.200\nbe the market leader\n\n327\n00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.520\nbecause people are right behind you all day long. It's like someone who's\n\n328\n00:14:18.520 --> 00:14:20.000\nwinning the race and they're\n\n329\n00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.220\ntrying to look behind them, but they also need to look forward because\n\n330\n00:14:22.220 --> 00:14:22.880\notherwise they're going to\n\n331\n00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:27.170\ntrip and fall. It's a hard position to be in. So you got these people that are\n\n332\n00:14:27.170 --> 00:14:27.760\nright behind you\n\n333\n00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:31.160\nevery time you come up with it. So what do you do? Do you have what process do\n\n334\n00:14:31.160 --> 00:14:32.880\nyou have to stay ahead\n\n335\n00:14:32.880 --> 00:14:38.120\nso that nobody ever catches you? Well, I mean, I'm trying. I don't sleep. No, I\n\n336\n00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:39.360\ndo sleep. You\n\n337\n00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:46.080\nknow, I think it's for me, the way to stay ahead of the curve is, first of all,\n\n338\n00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:47.040\nall joking aside,\n\n339\n00:14:47.040 --> 00:14:50.550\nI spend a lot of time listening to my children. My 16 year old daughter knows\n\n340\n00:14:50.550 --> 00:14:51.200\nmore about what's\n\n341\n00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.970\ngoing on in the world than anyone. She could go head to head with anyone about\n\n342\n00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:55.920\nany subject matter.\n\n343\n00:14:55.920 --> 00:15:00.320\nSo one, listen to the youth, listen to people who are younger than you. Have\n\n344\n00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:01.200\ncuriosity,\n\n345\n00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.180\nknow that you don't know everything, like lead with a level of humility and\n\n346\n00:15:05.180 --> 00:15:06.080\nconstantly seek to\n\n347\n00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:10.030\nlearn from others and look at other industries outside of your own. I always\n\n348\n00:15:10.030 --> 00:15:11.360\nlook to completely\n\n349\n00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.950\ndifferent industries to see, wow, Patagonia did that. That's super innovative\n\n350\n00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:17.440\nor this shoe company or\n\n351\n00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:21.680\nwhatever it is, because I think that oftentimes leaders look within their own\n\n352\n00:15:21.680 --> 00:15:23.200\nindustry to like\n\n353\n00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.200\ninnovate or for inspiration, but innovation doesn't come by comparing yourself\n\n354\n00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:28.000\nto another company.\n\n355\n00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:31.390\nInnovation comes from the sports field. Innovation comes from something in\n\n356\n00:15:31.390 --> 00:15:31.760\nnature.\n\n357\n00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:35.760\nInnovation comes from a conversation with a friend. And so to me, I'm a\n\n358\n00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:36.560\nconstant learner and\n\n359\n00:15:36.560 --> 00:15:40.540\nI'm listening to everyone around me and trying to find the best people who to\n\n360\n00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:41.440\nhelp me come up with\n\n361\n00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.840\nideas that I haven't come up with myself or improve upon those that I have. It\n\n362\n00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.680\nsounds like being a\n\n363\n00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:51.660\npattern thinker, you know, looking at what's going on somewhere else and then\n\n364\n00:15:51.660 --> 00:15:52.640\nsaying, how could we do\n\n365\n00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:57.520\nsomething like that within our category? That's one of your superpowers.\n\n366\n00:15:57.520 --> 00:16:01.680\nYou're going to say that in a much more succinct way that I did, but yes, there\n\n367\n00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:02.080\nis pattern\n\n368\n00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:06.060\nrecognition and I think that's important. And I think knowing when to lean into\n\n369\n00:16:06.060 --> 00:16:06.640\nsomething that's\n\n370\n00:16:06.640 --> 00:16:10.640\nworking, I also think with respect to leadership and innovation and being a\n\n371\n00:16:10.640 --> 00:16:11.760\nleader as a company,\n\n372\n00:16:11.760 --> 00:16:15.920\nyou also need to know when to say no to things that seem sexy but are actually\n\n373\n00:16:15.920 --> 00:16:16.320\ngoing to be a\n\n374\n00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.430\ndistraction. And when to let go of the emotional, I used to, when I let beauty\n\n375\n00:16:20.430 --> 00:16:22.400\ncounter before I started\n\n376\n00:16:22.400 --> 00:16:25.290\nthis company counter, before I went through what I went through through the\n\n377\n00:16:25.290 --> 00:16:26.880\nsale and all that ensued,\n\n378\n00:16:26.880 --> 00:16:30.860\nI was way more emotionally connected to everything. And I took things\n\n379\n00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:32.080\npersonally in a way that now,\n\n380\n00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.060\nI think I'm a better CEO today because I have created a little bit of emotional\n\n381\n00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:36.640\ndistance.\n\n382\n00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:40.320\nAnd I keep saying to the team, like, if that product's not performing, we need\n\n383\n00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:40.960\nto be willing\n\n384\n00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.090\nto let it go. You know, it's just it's not serving us anymore. If something's\n\n385\n00:16:44.090 --> 00:16:45.360\nnot serving you well,\n\n386\n00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.150\nmove on. And as a leader, you have to be confident in those choices to move on\n\n387\n00:16:49.150 --> 00:16:49.600\nfrom things that\n\n388\n00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:54.100\naren't working. Could you have a specific time when you took things personally\n\n389\n00:16:54.100 --> 00:16:55.280\nand it kept you from\n\n390\n00:16:55.280 --> 00:17:00.510\nmoving on? Well, I think one of the things that I have really had to learn,\n\n391\n00:17:00.510 --> 00:17:01.680\nlike it's a it's a it's\n\n392\n00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:06.500\na muscle that I've had to really strengthen over the years is knowing when to\n\n393\n00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:07.760\nlet go of people that\n\n394\n00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:12.720\nI love. Because you can really love a person personally and professionally and\n\n395\n00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:13.520\nthey may have\n\n396\n00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.160\nhave really served the company well for a period of time. But as companies grow\n\n397\n00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:19.120\nand change,\n\n398\n00:17:19.120 --> 00:17:23.280\nsomeone that was really capable of getting you from zero to 50 million may not\n\n399\n00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:23.920\nbe the\n\n400\n00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:28.320\nsame person that can get you from 50 to 250 million. Or maybe you have to have\n\n401\n00:17:28.320 --> 00:17:29.920\nthe confidence to say,\n\n402\n00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:33.330\nI still want you here. But this is the role that we're now going to play if you\n\n403\n00:17:33.330 --> 00:17:33.920\n're if you're\n\n404\n00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.600\ninterested in that role, not trying to be liked all the time, but being able to\n\n405\n00:17:37.600 --> 00:17:38.640\nlet go of things I\n\n406\n00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:43.520\nheld on to people for too long that no longer serve the needs of our customer.\n\n407\n00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.000\nAnd I think\n\n408\n00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.780\nit was detrimental to the business. And that's that's a really hard thing for\n\n409\n00:17:47.780 --> 00:17:48.720\nme to do because I'm\n\n410\n00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.960\na fiercely loyal person. But I think it's really important as a CEO to be\n\n411\n00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:54.160\ndecisive. You know,\n\n412\n00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.670\nthey always say to hire slowly and fire quickly. I think that's important\n\n413\n00:17:57.670 --> 00:17:58.640\nbecause your entire\n\n414\n00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.160\nbusiness is built on people. It just is. I don't care what business you're in.\n\n415\n00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:07.190\nI hope you're loving this interview with David and Greg. As always, be sure to\n\n416\n00:18:07.190 --> 00:18:07.920\nstay tuned to the\n\n417\n00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.880\nvery end of the episode because David and I are going to break down some of the\n\n418\n00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:12.480\nkey themes of\n\n419\n00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.920\nthis conversation with the goal really being just to arm you with something\n\n420\n00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:16.800\npractical that you can\n\n421\n00:18:16.800 --> 00:18:20.870\napply to your leadership, to your life and to your work. So stay tuned to the\n\n422\n00:18:20.870 --> 00:18:22.080\ndebrief and enjoy the\n\n423\n00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:27.470\nrest of this conversation with David and Greg. You know, you you you ultimately\n\n424\n00:18:27.470 --> 00:18:28.160\ngrew beauty\n\n425\n00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:33.040\ncounter to $300 million in annual revenue. And when you look back, you know,\n\n426\n00:18:33.040 --> 00:18:33.600\nwhat do you think\n\n427\n00:18:33.600 --> 00:18:37.580\nwere the top two or three decisions you made strategically that helped you do\n\n428\n00:18:37.580 --> 00:18:39.200\nthat? I focused\n\n429\n00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:46.080\non creating an emotional connection to our consumer. Beauty is an emotional\n\n430\n00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:47.200\npurchase. And I think that\n\n431\n00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.410\npeople want to associate with brands that matter that reflect their values and\n\n432\n00:18:51.410 --> 00:18:52.640\nbuilding an intimate\n\n433\n00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.620\nrelationship with those people by listening to and understanding their needs,\n\n434\n00:18:56.620 --> 00:18:57.280\nwhether you're building\n\n435\n00:18:57.280 --> 00:19:01.260\nthat relationship digitally or through wholesale through people. I think that's\n\n436\n00:19:01.260 --> 00:19:01.760\nsomething that I\n\n437\n00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:05.740\nreally, really focused on. And I think the other thing, which sort of goes hand\n\n438\n00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:06.720\nin hand with it,\n\n439\n00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:14.080\nis I wasn't afraid to speak the truth, to take risks and bring people along at\n\n440\n00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:14.880\ntimes the messy\n\n441\n00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:19.170\njourney that came with some of the associated risks. I was fully present and\n\n442\n00:19:19.170 --> 00:19:20.000\ntransparent\n\n443\n00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:27.280\nas a leader. Like, for example, when we found so we used Micah in our products,\n\n444\n00:19:27.280 --> 00:19:28.880\nMicah is used in\n\n445\n00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:33.230\nMicah's using so many things, including electronics, but it's certainly used in\n\n446\n00:19:33.230 --> 00:19:34.160\npersonal care products\n\n447\n00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:39.280\nand cosmetic products. It gives the eyeshadow, luster, or whatever it is. We\n\n448\n00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:39.760\nwere the first\n\n449\n00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:42.910\ncoming to physically audit our minds. No one had been there for 40 years. And\n\n450\n00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:43.440\nwhen we got there,\n\n451\n00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:47.520\nwe found children in those minds, little children in India, like four-year-old\n\n452\n00:19:47.520 --> 00:19:48.240\nchildren\n\n453\n00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:53.610\nmining for Micah in incredibly scary and dangerous situations. As a leader, I\n\n454\n00:19:53.610 --> 00:19:53.920\ncould have\n\n455\n00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:58.200\npushed that, like, swept it under the rug or not told anyone about it or moved\n\n456\n00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:59.680\nto synthetic Micah.\n\n457\n00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.160\nI didn't. I actually created a short documentary on that. We worked with the\n\n458\n00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.240\nlocal nonprofit. We\n\n459\n00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.840\ntried to create systemic change, and we told the customer what we had learned\n\n460\n00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:08.800\nand what we are doing\n\n461\n00:20:08.800 --> 00:20:12.240\nabout it. I think taking those risks and being authentic and transparent and\n\n462\n00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.120\nreally walking the\n\n463\n00:20:13.120 --> 00:20:17.670\nwalk really served us well. How did you think about your business model and\n\n464\n00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:18.640\nselling and reaching\n\n465\n00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.620\nyour customers? Did you do anything unique there? When we first started Beauty\n\n466\n00:20:22.620 --> 00:20:23.040\nCounter,\n\n467\n00:20:23.040 --> 00:20:27.130\nand even since we've started Counter, we really believed in the power of\n\n468\n00:20:27.130 --> 00:20:28.240\nstorytelling.\n\n469\n00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.200\nWe felt we had a story to tell, and we needed to educate the consumer that\n\n470\n00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:32.880\nthere was a need to\n\n471\n00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:37.280\nuse to remove chemicals of concern when they could from products that they were\n\n472\n00:20:37.280 --> 00:20:38.000\nputting in and on\n\n473\n00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:45.460\ntheir bodies every day. All of the products that were being sold, many of the\n\n474\n00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:46.640\nbeauty cosmetic\n\n475\n00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.590\npersonal care products that were being sold at the time I launched Beauty\n\n476\n00:20:50.590 --> 00:20:51.600\nCounter were being sold\n\n477\n00:20:51.600 --> 00:20:54.270\nin the shelves at department stores. And I was looking at that channel of\n\n478\n00:20:54.270 --> 00:20:55.440\ndistribution, and I\n\n479\n00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.400\nreally felt it was waning, which it did. I was also trying to create an\n\n480\n00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:00.800\nunderground movement\n\n481\n00:21:00.800 --> 00:21:04.160\nto catch all these incumbents by surprise because look, they didn't want the\n\n482\n00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:04.800\nstory of safer\n\n483\n00:21:04.800 --> 00:21:08.780\ningredients out there. And I understand that. They made a lot of choices about\n\n484\n00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:09.440\nformulations\n\n485\n00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:15.520\ndecades ago, and maybe they didn't realize those formulations were toxic, but\n\n486\n00:21:15.520 --> 00:21:16.240\nnow what do they do?\n\n487\n00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:20.240\nNow they've got a whole PR nightmare, and they've got the market. I mean, you\n\n488\n00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:21.040\nunderstand this.\n\n489\n00:21:21.040 --> 00:21:24.400\nThe market demands certain things. So I really wanted to create an underground\n\n490\n00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:24.960\nmovement. So I\n\n491\n00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:29.380\ndecided to sell predominantly through women to power up women to be educators\n\n492\n00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:30.560\nfor cosmetic reform\n\n493\n00:21:30.560 --> 00:21:33.840\non both the state and federal level, because I really felt that there was an\n\n494\n00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:34.720\nopportunity to\n\n495\n00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:39.700\nshift in a whole industry, but that we couldn't do that just through selling at\n\n496\n00:21:39.700 --> 00:21:40.880\nUltaSafour on\n\n497\n00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:44.340\nTarget or Amazon. We needed to get a community that really believed in the\n\n498\n00:21:44.340 --> 00:21:45.520\npurpose of our brand,\n\n499\n00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:48.650\nand yes, we had an e-commerce platform, and yes, we had stores, and yes, we\n\n500\n00:21:48.650 --> 00:21:49.920\nultimately had a great\n\n501\n00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.870\nrelationship with Ulta, but it was the power of the people that changed the\n\n502\n00:21:52.870 --> 00:21:53.760\nentire industry.\n\n503\n00:21:53.760 --> 00:21:57.760\nAnd you had a very sophisticated message you had to get out there, so people\n\n504\n00:21:57.760 --> 00:21:58.800\nhad to be educated\n\n505\n00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:03.520\nand trained to really deliver it. So do you spend a lot of time on that as a\n\n506\n00:22:03.520 --> 00:22:04.720\nbig strategic focus\n\n507\n00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.660\nof your company with your Salesforce? When we launched Beauty Counterback in\n\n508\n00:22:09.660 --> 00:22:10.480\nthe old company,\n\n509\n00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.850\nwe spent an inordinate amount of time teaching them as best we could about what\n\n510\n00:22:15.850 --> 00:22:16.400\nwe knew about\n\n511\n00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.380\nwhat was in our products. I do feel like you don't want to overload people with\n\n512\n00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:21.040\ninformation.\n\n513\n00:22:21.040 --> 00:22:24.650\nYou know, I used to just say a couple of really basic things. You know, there\n\n514\n00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:25.520\nare tens of thousands\n\n515\n00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:29.550\nof chemicals that have been introduced into commerce since World War II, of\n\n516\n00:22:29.550 --> 00:22:30.160\nwhich less than\n\n517\n00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.140\n10% have assessed for safety and human health. And at the time that we had not\n\n518\n00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:34.720\nupdated major\n\n519\n00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.700\nfederal law since the Federal Food Drugs and Cosmetics Act, which was passed in\n\n520\n00:22:38.700 --> 00:22:40.400\n1938 by FDR.\n\n521\n00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.000\nAnd so when you know that and you think about all the products that we're\n\n522\n00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:43.760\nputting on our bodies\n\n523\n00:22:43.760 --> 00:22:48.660\nevery day, it was time for legislative reform. And so we really got everyone,\n\n524\n00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:49.360\nour Salesforce,\n\n525\n00:22:49.360 --> 00:22:54.080\nbehind that advocacy work held thousands of meetings on the Hill, sent hundreds\n\n526\n00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:54.480\nof thousands\n\n527\n00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.470\nof emails in Texas and members of Congress. They really wanted to participate\n\n528\n00:22:57.470 --> 00:22:58.320\nin their democracy,\n\n529\n00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:02.300\nand they did throw, did so through educating themselves and also the customers\n\n530\n00:23:02.300 --> 00:23:02.960\nthat they served.\n\n531\n00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.120\nYeah. You know, and you end up selling that business for a billion dollars.\n\n532\n00:23:07.120 --> 00:23:07.840\nWhat's something\n\n533\n00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:12.800\nmost people would be surprised to know about that entire experience?\n\n534\n00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:18.920\nI think the thing that I anticipated is that I would feel differently\n\n535\n00:23:18.920 --> 00:23:21.360\nafterwards, that I would\n\n536\n00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:25.960\nfeel something when I'm not, not to say that I wasn't emotional at the moment\n\n537\n00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.520\nwhen that, when that,\n\n538\n00:23:27.520 --> 00:23:31.920\nwe unfortunately, for us at the time, usually do these things in person, but it\n\n539\n00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.040\nwas COVID. And so\n\n540\n00:23:33.040 --> 00:23:37.020\nI videotaped that whole deal closing. It was actually really, it was a\n\n541\n00:23:37.020 --> 00:23:38.400\nsentimental day for me,\n\n542\n00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:38.400\nbecause it was my father's birthday. My dad died when I was 29 of cancer. And I\n\n543\n00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:43.120\nthought it was kind\n\n544\n00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:46.300\nof fitting that it was on his birthday. And I was really emotional at the\n\n545\n00:23:46.300 --> 00:23:47.200\nmoment we closed.\n\n546\n00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:52.640\nBut I think what people think when they look at success, however it's defined,\n\n547\n00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.680\nthey look at leaders, they look at people who are in the public eye, they think\n\n548\n00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:56.480\nthat they feel\n\n549\n00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.480\ndifferently their lives are any different, but you wake up the next morning, it\n\n550\n00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:00.320\n's kind of like\n\n551\n00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:05.350\nthe day after you get married, it's the same guy. It's the same exact guy that\n\n552\n00:24:05.350 --> 00:24:06.000\nwas your boyfriend\n\n553\n00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:09.110\nlike three months ago. Now he's your husband. I think it's the same thing like\n\n554\n00:24:09.110 --> 00:24:09.920\nI felt like I was\n\n555\n00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.410\ngoing to feel different. But I just felt like myself again, like it didn't mean\n\n556\n00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:14.960\nas much to me\n\n557\n00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.060\nemotionally as I thought it would. It was just like, okay, we got to get back\n\n558\n00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:19.040\nto work tomorrow.\n\n559\n00:24:19.040 --> 00:24:25.290\nAnd that's something that people don't think. That's cool. And if I have this\n\n560\n00:24:25.290 --> 00:24:25.760\nright,\n\n561\n00:24:25.760 --> 00:24:31.530\nyou got fired as CEO only four months after selling the business. Tell us that\n\n562\n00:24:31.530 --> 00:24:32.000\nstory.\n\n563\n00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:38.160\nYeah, that was a video show. I mean, I think that, you know, I went into it, we\n\n564\n00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:38.960\nall went into it,\n\n565\n00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:44.330\nboth the private equity from to whom I sold the business. And then myself and\n\n566\n00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:44.880\nmy team, we all\n\n567\n00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.830\nwent into it thinking that we were selling to financial sponsors so that we\n\n568\n00:24:48.830 --> 00:24:49.360\ncould ultimately\n\n569\n00:24:49.360 --> 00:24:52.870\ntake the company public. I wanted to be a public CEO. I'm not sure I still want\n\n570\n00:24:52.870 --> 00:24:54.080\nto be a public CEO,\n\n571\n00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:58.480\nbut whatever. At the time, I really did. And I thought we were going to be the\n\n572\n00:24:58.480 --> 00:24:59.280\nnext generation\n\n573\n00:24:59.280 --> 00:25:02.900\nleader in beauty. One of the things I felt that they were buying was me. I\n\n574\n00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:03.840\nthink they were really\n\n575\n00:25:03.840 --> 00:25:07.820\nexcited about working with me. But when we sold the company, it was right, it\n\n576\n00:25:07.820 --> 00:25:08.640\nwas concurrent with\n\n577\n00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.990\nthe world opening up from the pandemic. And consumers redirected their spend\n\n578\n00:25:12.990 --> 00:25:14.000\naway from personal care\n\n579\n00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:18.120\nand cosmetics and to fashion or to travel or whatever. And for people for whom\n\n580\n00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:19.200\nthe decision to\n\n581\n00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:24.080\nbe able to buy a nice face serum or buy a new pair of jeans, like not everyone.\n\n582\n00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:24.560\nThat's not a\n\n583\n00:25:24.560 --> 00:25:27.870\nno-brainer for everyone. Some people have to make a choice, right? They don't\n\n584\n00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:29.120\nhave tons of disposable\n\n585\n00:25:29.120 --> 00:25:32.400\nincome. And so our business kind of faltered that summer. And four months later\n\n586\n00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:33.200\n, they said that\n\n587\n00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.150\nthey'd made the decision that they needed a new CEO. And that was a devastating\n\n588\n00:25:37.150 --> 00:25:37.440\nblow to me\n\n589\n00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.700\nbecause I really felt I had done an exceptional job. I had gone from zero to\n\n590\n00:25:41.700 --> 00:25:43.040\njust shy of 400\n\n591\n00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:46.480\nmillion in eight years. I went straight up. And we were still growing. So I\n\n592\n00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:47.520\nthought, well,\n\n593\n00:25:47.520 --> 00:25:50.410\ncan I have a little bit more time? But that was a decision that they made. It\n\n594\n00:25:50.410 --> 00:25:50.880\nwas hard.\n\n595\n00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:56.320\nYeah, you know, they say that, you know, death, divorce, and getting Terminator\n\n596\n00:25:56.320 --> 00:25:56.320\n,\n\n597\n00:25:56.320 --> 00:26:00.710\nthe three biggest impacts that they on your life, I mean, they all are so\n\n598\n00:26:00.710 --> 00:26:02.160\nshocking. You know,\n\n599\n00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:07.360\nhow did you deal with the fact that you'd built that business? You're still\n\n600\n00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:08.320\nbuilding the business\n\n601\n00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:13.690\nand people all of a sudden tell you, you're not the person. I mean, admittedly,\n\n602\n00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:14.080\nI probably\n\n603\n00:26:14.080 --> 00:26:18.090\ndidn't handle it very well. I was extremely emotional and extremely angry. I\n\n604\n00:26:18.090 --> 00:26:19.600\nfelt, you know,\n\n605\n00:26:19.600 --> 00:26:27.390\nit wasn't fair. And I didn't, I couldn't get my head around it to be completely\n\n606\n00:26:27.390 --> 00:26:28.320\nhonest. I think\n\n607\n00:26:28.320 --> 00:26:32.400\nI've, I felt like I kept saying, could I just, I just give me a little more\n\n608\n00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.120\ntime. Like, this is\n\n609\n00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:37.080\nthe first time in 100 years that we've had something occur, like this pandemic,\n\n610\n00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:37.840\nlike, I think I can\n\n611\n00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:41.330\nget, get it back. It was really, really hard. It was really humbling. It was\n\n612\n00:26:41.330 --> 00:26:42.240\nreally humiliating\n\n613\n00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.280\npublicly. It was like, we just made this huge announcement. I'm like, this\n\n614\n00:26:45.280 --> 00:26:46.320\nunicorn entrepreneur,\n\n615\n00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:50.280\nand it's a billion dollar valuation. And like, I'm the next thing, and then I'm\n\n616\n00:26:50.280 --> 00:26:51.440\nout. And I think\n\n617\n00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:56.410\nthat I could have handled myself better in retrospect, because I think that\n\n618\n00:26:56.410 --> 00:26:57.200\nemotion,\n\n619\n00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:01.950\nyou know, and I now like have gotten better, like looking at the facts in\n\n620\n00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:04.400\ngeneral as a CEO and saying,\n\n621\n00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.190\nokay, these are the facts. Like then the rest of it's your own story around it,\n\n622\n00:27:07.190 --> 00:27:08.000\nbut it was hard.\n\n623\n00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:11.980\nIt was really, really hard. And I've learned to be better about not getting so\n\n624\n00:27:11.980 --> 00:27:12.720\nemotional now.\n\n625\n00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:16.680\nNot perfect, but better. And one of the things I learned, and it would really\n\n626\n00:27:16.680 --> 00:27:17.280\nirritate the hell\n\n627\n00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:22.080\nout of me, you actually had a meeting with the incoming CEOs taking your job\n\n628\n00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:22.400\nand they\n\n629\n00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:28.650\ncancel or didn't show up or, you know, what did that teach you? Just that\n\n630\n00:27:28.650 --> 00:27:30.240\nfeeling, that sensation,\n\n631\n00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.680\nwhatever the hell it was. Well, it taught me that there wasn't going to be room\n\n632\n00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.720\nfor both of us in\n\n633\n00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.720\nthe company. But I think, you know, what I learned from him, and I really mean\n\n634\n00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:39.280\nthis, is\n\n635\n00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:44.930\nat the end of the day, when I think about what went down, I hold him more\n\n636\n00:27:44.930 --> 00:27:45.920\nresponsible than the\n\n637\n00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.880\nprivate equity firm. I think they were doing their best in trying to protect\n\n638\n00:27:49.880 --> 00:27:50.960\ntheir investment and\n\n639\n00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.940\nthat of their LP is not that they didn't make, we all made bad decisions. But I\n\n640\n00:27:54.940 --> 00:27:55.760\nthink that what I\n\n641\n00:27:55.760 --> 00:27:59.860\nlearned from him is that arrogance has no place in the business world. The\n\n642\n00:27:59.860 --> 00:28:01.120\narrogance has no place\n\n643\n00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:04.720\nin the world. Again, I really feel that strongly now. If you're not respectful\n\n644\n00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:05.520\nof those that have\n\n645\n00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:08.490\nthe institutional knowledge, if you don't want to listen to the founder, the\n\n646\n00:28:08.490 --> 00:28:09.520\nfounder may be past\n\n647\n00:28:09.520 --> 00:28:13.940\ntheir ability to operate a business, that may be true. But to not understand\n\n648\n00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:14.800\ntheir vision,\n\n649\n00:28:14.800 --> 00:28:19.040\nto not understand the context around certain decisions that you're looking at\n\n650\n00:28:19.040 --> 00:28:19.680\nthat\n\n651\n00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.880\nseem like really poor choices. But maybe you don't know what was going on at\n\n652\n00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:23.840\nthat moment in time and\n\n653\n00:28:23.840 --> 00:28:28.470\nwhat the pressures to the business were. I think it really signaled to me that\n\n654\n00:28:28.470 --> 00:28:30.240\nhe was arrogant,\n\n655\n00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.220\nand that he didn't think that I had value anymore in the business. It was a\n\n656\n00:28:34.220 --> 00:28:35.840\nvery patronizing move,\n\n657\n00:28:35.840 --> 00:28:40.210\nand as you can imagine, it didn't sit well with me. But it was a good learning.\n\n658\n00:28:40.210 --> 00:28:40.720\nYou know, I've learned\n\n659\n00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:45.520\na lot from him. I got to ask you this, and I'm sure, I mean, I know how I would\n\n660\n00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:46.000\nhave been,\n\n661\n00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:54.190\nwere you kind of happy to see the guy fail? You know, honestly, I'll answer it\n\n662\n00:28:54.190 --> 00:28:56.240\nhonestly.\n\n663\n00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.880\nOn one hand, of course, yes, it was a little bit of a, you thought you were\n\n664\n00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:01.440\nbetter than me,\n\n665\n00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:06.400\nand you weren't. And on the other side, no, because with his failing came the\n\n666\n00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:07.760\nfailing of my company,\n\n667\n00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:12.880\nit forced us into foreclosure. I lost a lot of credibility with a lot of people\n\n668\n00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:13.600\nthat had been\n\n669\n00:29:13.600 --> 00:29:17.580\nsellers for the brand or purchases of the product. And I lost a significant\n\n670\n00:29:17.580 --> 00:29:18.480\namount of my\n\n671\n00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:23.510\nfinancial stake as I was asked as many founders are to roll a significant\n\n672\n00:29:23.510 --> 00:29:25.040\namount of my equity over.\n\n673\n00:29:25.040 --> 00:29:30.160\nAnd with that came a significant financial loss to me. So on one hand, yeah,\n\n674\n00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:30.720\nbecause I thought,\n\n675\n00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.330\nyou know, you were so cocky, he is cocky. And it's not just towards me. He just\n\n676\n00:29:34.330 --> 00:29:34.960\nwas there again.\n\n677\n00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.080\nAnd I think that that's just not a good way to be. So, yes, I had a chuckle. He\n\n678\n00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:40.560\nwas French.\n\n679\n00:29:40.560 --> 00:29:44.180\nI think I would refer to him as the baguette. I probably shouldn't say that\n\n680\n00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:45.360\npublicly, but whatever.\n\n681\n00:29:45.360 --> 00:29:48.550\nBut then on the other hand, I was like, what a huge loss for everyone. And that\n\n682\n00:29:48.550 --> 00:29:49.280\nmade me so\n\n683\n00:29:49.280 --> 00:29:53.260\nunbelievably sad for all the people we had served along the way. All the\n\n684\n00:29:53.260 --> 00:29:53.760\nassociates that\n\n685\n00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:58.260\nhave worked so hard didn't deserve that. And they came to their senses and they\n\n686\n00:29:58.260 --> 00:29:59.040\nasked you to come\n\n687\n00:29:59.040 --> 00:30:04.020\nback and how they convinced you to come back. I mean, was that something you\n\n688\n00:30:04.020 --> 00:30:04.960\nwanted to do? Or\n\n689\n00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:09.440\ndid you have to get your arm twisted or whatever that phrase is?\n\n690\n00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:14.030\nGoing back to, you know, how does it make you feel? I don't know. Have you ever\n\n691\n00:30:14.030 --> 00:30:15.120\ngotten dumped\n\n692\n00:30:15.120 --> 00:30:19.200\nby a woman in your life? And you know, you thought like you were in love with\n\n693\n00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.080\nthe person they say,\n\n694\n00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:22.460\nlike they're not loving you anymore. And then they come crawling back and you\n\n695\n00:30:22.460 --> 00:30:23.040\n're like, oh,\n\n696\n00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:25.760\nand just when you're getting over them.\n\n697\n00:30:25.760 --> 00:30:30.240\nI actually wrote a country song about that. It's called Backburner.\n\n698\n00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.660\nYou know, don't put me on the Backburner because I'm tired of getting burnt by\n\n699\n00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:34.080\nyou.\n\n700\n00:30:34.080 --> 00:30:38.060\nOkay, well, I literally say this to my kids. I'm like, just wait. If you play\n\n701\n00:30:38.060 --> 00:30:38.080\nyour\n\n702\n00:30:38.080 --> 00:30:41.060\ncards right, I promise you more times than not, they're coming back around\n\n703\n00:30:41.060 --> 00:30:41.360\nagain.\n\n704\n00:30:41.360 --> 00:30:44.720\nIf you freak out, they're not going to come. So I feel like I was just getting\n\n705\n00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:45.440\nover it. It was like\n\n706\n00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.680\nit was like a great heartbreak for me. I mean, I was literally like, you know,\n\n707\n00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:52.960\nI always said it was like selling the company and then that whole situation\n\n708\n00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.080\nwith the CEO is like,\n\n709\n00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:59.600\nI'm totally in love with my husband, but he dumps me for like a younger, better\n\n710\n00:30:59.600 --> 00:31:03.210\nmodel of me. And then I had to smile in front of the kids in the family at the\n\n711\n00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:03.520\nwedding and\n\n712\n00:31:03.520 --> 00:31:07.170\npretend like it's all okay. And then I finally pull myself together, having\n\n713\n00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:07.840\ncried for months\n\n714\n00:31:07.840 --> 00:31:10.960\nand months and months and get on with my life. And then he's like, I want you\n\n715\n00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:11.440\nback. And you're\n\n716\n00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.240\nlike, you've got to be kidding me. And that's kind of how I felt. It was like,\n\n717\n00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:15.200\nwait, now you want me\n\n718\n00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.290\nback. And so my first answer was no, no, thank you. I appreciate I'm flattered,\n\n719\n00:31:19.290 --> 00:31:20.720\nbut no, thank you.\n\n720\n00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.840\nAnd then the board was really convincing. And I thought, look, I owe it to the\n\n721\n00:31:23.840 --> 00:31:24.320\ncommunity.\n\n722\n00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:28.400\nI served. I believe the clean is still worth fighting for. We have more work to\n\n723\n00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:28.800\nbe done.\n\n724\n00:31:28.800 --> 00:31:31.790\nAnd I have a financial stake in the company. And I was really transparent about\n\n725\n00:31:31.790 --> 00:31:32.560\nthe reasons\n\n726\n00:31:32.560 --> 00:31:37.010\nthat I decided to go back in. And so I did. And I went back in as CEO in\n\n727\n00:31:37.010 --> 00:31:39.040\nFebruary of 2024 with a\n\n728\n00:31:39.040 --> 00:31:43.680\nlot of hopes and dreams for the business. And you didn't just come back as CEO,\n\n729\n00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.480\nyou end up buying\n\n730\n00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.560\nthe company back. Well, I started as CEO. And then the company immediately went\n\n731\n00:31:48.560 --> 00:31:49.520\ninto foreclosure\n\n732\n00:31:49.520 --> 00:31:53.500\nbecause we were within a couple of months in breach of the debt covenants. I\n\n733\n00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:54.240\nthink the company\n\n734\n00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:58.880\nwas, it was kind of a little too late. And I didn't realize that as much as\n\n735\n00:31:58.880 --> 00:31:59.680\nonce I got in there,\n\n736\n00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:03.660\nI started to see, you know, I always said, like, I don't even think Bob Iger\n\n737\n00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:04.320\ncould have turned it\n\n738\n00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:07.130\naround in that period of time. Like it was just, we tried to find a home for\n\n739\n00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:07.920\nthe brand. It wasn't\n\n740\n00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.440\ngoing to happen. We went into foreclosure. And then yes, I made the crazy\n\n741\n00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:13.520\ndecision to buy the\n\n742\n00:32:13.520 --> 00:32:17.480\nbusiness like in 48 hours, I made the decision to buy the business out of\n\n743\n00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:18.000\nforeclosure.\n\n744\n00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.980\nAs I understand it, you know, you made that decision. You got your family\n\n745\n00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:23.600\ninvolved in the\n\n746\n00:32:23.600 --> 00:32:29.200\npurchase. And how did you involve them in the process? Well, I think that my\n\n747\n00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.240\nfamily has always\n\n748\n00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.280\nbeen. So first of all, I have a husband, Mark, and we've been together for 25\n\n749\n00:32:34.280 --> 00:32:35.520\nyears. And so we\n\n750\n00:32:35.520 --> 00:32:39.780\nwork as a team. And you know this, you know, anyone that's been in a long term\n\n751\n00:32:39.780 --> 00:32:40.560\npartnership\n\n752\n00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:44.070\nknows that one person doesn't make a decision because it has repercussions for\n\n753\n00:32:44.070 --> 00:32:44.560\neveryone,\n\n754\n00:32:44.560 --> 00:32:47.920\nwhether that's in business or personal or both. So first and foremost, my\n\n755\n00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:49.520\nhusband had been supportive\n\n756\n00:32:49.520 --> 00:32:52.960\nand we needed to have a conversation about whether or not we wanted to dip into\n\n757\n00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:53.840\nour savings and buy\n\n758\n00:32:53.840 --> 00:32:57.820\nthe business back. The second thing is that my children had watched me do this\n\n759\n00:32:57.820 --> 00:32:58.480\ntheir whole life\n\n760\n00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.460\nand beauty counter was a huge part of my children's livelihood. They were\n\n761\n00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:03.600\nalways participating in\n\n762\n00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:07.220\nproduct development and helping me with things. And I, you know, I don't know,\n\n763\n00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:08.000\nuse them for, I don't\n\n764\n00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:11.980\nknow, marketing things or whatever. And so they felt, you know, they just said,\n\n765\n00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:12.800\nMom, you've worked\n\n766\n00:33:12.800 --> 00:33:16.410\nso hard at this. Like you, you just can't let this die. Like you've worked so,\n\n767\n00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:17.360\nso hard. I think you\n\n768\n00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:20.640\nshould go for it. But I did have a family conversation because I knew when I\n\n769\n00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.680\nwent back into it, I was\n\n770\n00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.740\ngoing to be insanely busy all over again. And they had just gotten used to me\n\n771\n00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:26.640\nbeing around a little\n\n772\n00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.620\nbit more. And that was a hard decision. But I think we made the right decision.\n\n773\n00:33:30.620 --> 00:33:31.360\nAnd I did need\n\n774\n00:33:31.360 --> 00:33:35.730\nthe support of my family. So Greg, you got to help me understand this one, you\n\n775\n00:33:35.730 --> 00:33:37.120\nknow, because it's\n\n776\n00:33:37.120 --> 00:33:42.490\nkind of a complicated story here. You then buy the business back and only to\n\n777\n00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:44.560\nshut it down a few\n\n778\n00:33:44.560 --> 00:33:49.390\nweeks later, explain that one. So I bought the business in either ground April\n\n779\n00:33:49.390 --> 00:33:51.040\n20th of 2024.\n\n780\n00:33:51.040 --> 00:33:56.410\nAnd we bought it myself and my husband with a small group of investors with a\n\n781\n00:33:56.410 --> 00:33:57.040\nsmall amount of\n\n782\n00:33:57.040 --> 00:34:03.290\ncapital. What I realized within, I mean, within days is that it was going to\n\n783\n00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:03.920\ncost us\n\n784\n00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:10.480\nliterally several million dollars a month just to run the technology. And the\n\n785\n00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:11.440\ntechnology itself\n\n786\n00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:16.400\nwas broken. It required a team of something like 25 full time people and then a\n\n787\n00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:17.120\nmulti-million\n\n788\n00:34:17.120 --> 00:34:21.280\ndollar monthly fee. That in and of itself was a non-starter for the business.\n\n789\n00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:22.240\nLike there was no\n\n790\n00:34:22.240 --> 00:34:26.260\npath forward. And that's just one of the examples that I can use. And so I\n\n791\n00:34:26.260 --> 00:34:27.760\ncouldn't see a path to\n\n792\n00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.840\nbright. And so I made the incredibly difficult decision to shut it down because\n\n793\n00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:32.560\nI felt that in\n\n794\n00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:36.850\norder for the business to have a chance to live, it actually had to die first.\n\n795\n00:34:36.850 --> 00:34:37.840\nI had to let go of\n\n796\n00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.330\nwhat was, reimagine everything and come out with new and improved, more cost\n\n797\n00:34:42.330 --> 00:34:43.520\neffective systems,\n\n798\n00:34:43.520 --> 00:34:48.080\netc. And it was a really, it was an excruciating decision because it meant that\n\n799\n00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:48.880\nI had to let go\n\n800\n00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:53.680\nof all of these people who had served the company and do so without warning and\n\n801\n00:34:53.680 --> 00:34:54.400\nwithout severance.\n\n802\n00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.380\nThere just was no money. And it was a really tough decision. But it was\n\n803\n00:34:58.380 --> 00:34:59.680\nultimately, in my opinion,\n\n804\n00:34:59.680 --> 00:35:04.080\nthe only way we could move forward. You know, that unbelievably tough decision,\n\n805\n00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:08.040\nwe've had to make, I mean, anytime you affect people's compensation and their\n\n806\n00:35:08.040 --> 00:35:08.720\njobs, I mean,\n\n807\n00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:13.350\nit is hard. You know, what was your big learning on that that you could share\n\n808\n00:35:13.350 --> 00:35:15.120\nwith others on how to\n\n809\n00:35:15.120 --> 00:35:20.490\ndo that as effectively as you can, knowing there's so much pain? Well, first\n\n810\n00:35:20.490 --> 00:35:21.440\nand foremost, to be\n\n811\n00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.950\nbest of your abilities, speak the truth. And when I say to the best of your\n\n812\n00:35:24.950 --> 00:35:25.920\nabilities, and they're\n\n813\n00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.430\nalways, you know, you've always got your lawyers saying, don't say this or\n\n814\n00:35:28.430 --> 00:35:29.760\nsomething, that's just,\n\n815\n00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:34.500\nthat's just corporate, that's the corporate world. But I think you have to, to\n\n816\n00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:35.760\ntry to put yourself\n\n817\n00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:39.720\nin their shoes and try to try to lead and speak with compassion and\n\n818\n00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:40.960\nunderstanding, allow for them\n\n819\n00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:45.150\nto be angry and frustrated and to vent and, you know, to speak disparagingly\n\n820\n00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:46.160\nabout you because they\n\n821\n00:35:46.160 --> 00:35:50.530\nneed to go through their process and do the best job that you possibly can to\n\n822\n00:35:50.530 --> 00:35:51.360\nsupport them and\n\n823\n00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:56.170\nfinding something new. Like, I always try in earnest to help people move to the\n\n824\n00:35:56.170 --> 00:35:57.040\nnext chapter\n\n825\n00:35:57.040 --> 00:36:00.400\nin a way that feels comfortable for them. You know, it's different in a\n\n826\n00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:01.360\nsituation where you're\n\n827\n00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:05.310\nin foreclosure and have to do a radical thing like we had to do. It's another\n\n828\n00:36:05.310 --> 00:36:06.080\nthing when, when,\n\n829\n00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:10.080\nwhen you're letting go of an associate, I try to do them to do it in a way that\n\n830\n00:36:10.080 --> 00:36:10.400\ngives them\n\n831\n00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.480\nenough breathing room and enough notice. But I, but I am decisive. And I think\n\n832\n00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:15.120\nlike with anything\n\n833\n00:36:15.120 --> 00:36:19.730\nin life being really crystal clear in your communication and don't waffle and\n\n834\n00:36:19.730 --> 00:36:20.960\ndon't, don't,\n\n835\n00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.940\nlead with ambiguity, just recognize how hard it is, recognize how painful it is\n\n836\n00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:25.920\nfor them. But know\n\n837\n00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:29.110\nthat you're, that you're also helping them, not in a situation where your\n\n838\n00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:29.840\ncompany's gone out of\n\n839\n00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.730\nbusiness. That's a different situation. But oftentimes when somebody doesn't\n\n840\n00:36:32.730 --> 00:36:33.680\nwork, you're giving them\n\n841\n00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:37.300\nthe opportunity to find something else where they can be successful. And when\n\n842\n00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:38.640\nyou're not succeeding\n\n843\n00:36:38.640 --> 00:36:41.840\nin your job, you don't feel very good, you know? And so I think it's like,\n\n844\n00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:43.360\nwhere can we help you\n\n845\n00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.010\nfind a place where you're better suited, where your needs, where your, where\n\n846\n00:36:47.010 --> 00:36:47.840\nyour, where your\n\n847\n00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.880\nstrengths and attributes will be recognized and you'll feel really good about\n\n848\n00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:51.520\nwhat you're doing.\n\n849\n00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:54.400\nAnd I think that's important as a leader to help people do that.\n\n850\n00:36:54.400 --> 00:37:00.640\nSo you, you shut down beauty counter and you talk about, you know, now you got\n\n851\n00:37:00.640 --> 00:37:01.360\na new chapter.\n\n852\n00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.320\nTell us about the new chapter. What, what was your plan?\n\n853\n00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.680\nOh, well, I had no plan. I mean, I literally had no plan. I mean,\n\n854\n00:37:07.680 --> 00:37:12.240\nI went back in as CEO. So I had a plan, right, which was to turn this old\n\n855\n00:37:12.240 --> 00:37:12.880\ncompany around.\n\n856\n00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:16.490\nI had lots of ideas. We then realized we couldn't do it. We shut it down. Then\n\n857\n00:37:16.490 --> 00:37:17.040\nI thought, well,\n\n858\n00:37:17.040 --> 00:37:22.420\nI, I mean, I don't know. I have no idea what the plan is. Like, this is not\n\n859\n00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:23.360\nsomething that was\n\n860\n00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:26.800\nthat I was thinking about. So I had a good cry. I mean, I really did have a\n\n861\n00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:27.440\ngood cry. I remember\n\n862\n00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.880\nsitting on the floor with one of my old partners and I thought, Oh my gosh,\n\n863\n00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:31.440\nwhat have I done?\n\n864\n00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.050\nLike, what am I going to do? And, and you know, you then you sort of, I think\n\n865\n00:37:35.050 --> 00:37:35.520\nas a leader,\n\n866\n00:37:35.520 --> 00:37:39.520\nyou start to like breathe and take, take a deep breath and like, okay, like,\n\n867\n00:37:39.520 --> 00:37:39.920\nall right,\n\n868\n00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:44.320\nlet's, let's lay this out one step at a time. You can't, you can't have a plan\n\n869\n00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:45.520\novernight, but you can\n\n870\n00:37:45.520 --> 00:37:50.120\nchip away at a plan. And I did give myself and told the team that I kept on, we\n\n871\n00:37:50.120 --> 00:37:51.200\nkept a small team on,\n\n872\n00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.170\nthat I needed the summer to really think and that I welcomed their\n\n873\n00:37:55.170 --> 00:37:57.200\nparticipation, but that I didn't,\n\n874\n00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:02.440\nthat I would have a plan and I will be able to clearly articulate a plan, but I\n\n875\n00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:03.040\nneed a little bit\n\n876\n00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:06.400\nof time. And if they want to leave, I understand that, but if not, if they can\n\n877\n00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:07.360\ngive me some space\n\n878\n00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.510\nand they can co-create this with me, I think that we have a, we have a shot at\n\n879\n00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:11.120\ndoing something\n\n880\n00:38:11.120 --> 00:38:15.100\nreally exceptional again. And so I took a couple of months, the summer of 24,\n\n881\n00:38:15.100 --> 00:38:16.320\nto really think about,\n\n882\n00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:20.320\nokay, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment? Like, if you had the opportunity\n\n883\n00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:21.520\nto strike twice,\n\n884\n00:38:21.520 --> 00:38:24.480\nwhat would you do? How would you innovate? I mean, I literally read books and\n\n885\n00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:25.520\nlooked at past leaders\n\n886\n00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:29.460\nand good decisions that have been made. I looked at sports teams, I looked at,\n\n887\n00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:30.480\nI did look at Apple,\n\n888\n00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.560\nI looked at other companies and what have they done well, you know, and things\n\n889\n00:38:33.560 --> 00:38:34.560\nlike streamlining\n\n890\n00:38:34.560 --> 00:38:38.540\nproduct assortment, like, okay, doing less products, but do them better. Okay,\n\n891\n00:38:38.540 --> 00:38:39.520\nwhat is our core messaging?\n\n892\n00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:42.440\nWhat can we do that's innovative? Where has the market gone? I spent a lot of\n\n893\n00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:43.520\ntime thinking and\n\n894\n00:38:43.520 --> 00:38:48.010\nthen ultimately, you know, started to iterate on a plan that I think, you know,\n\n895\n00:38:48.010 --> 00:38:48.640\nI'm still,\n\n896\n00:38:48.640 --> 00:38:51.800\nI'm still iterating, but I feel like I have a pretty clear vision now of what\n\n897\n00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:52.720\nwe can do.\n\n898\n00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:56.340\nAnd you've launched this brand as counter, you know, what's the story behind\n\n899\n00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:57.120\nthe new name?\n\n900\n00:38:57.120 --> 00:39:01.680\nWell, first of all, I wanted it to respectfully nod to the past because we've\n\n901\n00:39:01.680 --> 00:39:02.480\nalways gone counter\n\n902\n00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:06.750\nto the industry and we are counter to industry norms. And I'd like to kind of\n\n903\n00:39:06.750 --> 00:39:08.000\nshake things up. I\n\n904\n00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:11.980\nalso, I was ever completely in love with the name Beauty Counter, it served its\n\n905\n00:39:11.980 --> 00:39:12.160\npurpose,\n\n906\n00:39:12.160 --> 00:39:16.270\nbut counter was also limiting people like you who actually would like our\n\n907\n00:39:16.270 --> 00:39:17.440\nproducts and be using\n\n908\n00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:21.420\nour sunscreen or our body lotion. The minute the word beauty went in it, we\n\n909\n00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:22.320\nlost half the audience\n\n910\n00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:26.300\nright there. I wanted to give it a fresh start and I felt like the branding\n\n911\n00:39:26.300 --> 00:39:27.120\nneeded to be of the\n\n912\n00:39:27.120 --> 00:39:31.310\nmoment. The name needed to feel of the moment, but it also needed to reflect\n\n913\n00:39:31.310 --> 00:39:32.800\nand respect the past\n\n914\n00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:35.590\nwhile looking into the for it. I feel really good about the name. I think it's\n\n915\n00:39:35.590 --> 00:39:36.400\ngreat. I'm super\n\n916\n00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.700\nexcited about it. You kind of alluded to this a little earlier. You said you\n\n917\n00:39:39.700 --> 00:39:40.880\nwent through a process\n\n918\n00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:45.680\nwhere you looked at your product line eliminated things. I think it's, you know\n\n919\n00:39:45.680 --> 00:39:47.360\n, it's a SKU rational\n\n920\n00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.630\nization exercise, basically. And, you know, what was the process you used to\n\n921\n00:39:51.630 --> 00:39:53.040\nfigure that out?\n\n922\n00:39:53.040 --> 00:39:58.800\nWell, first and foremost, I looked at two things. Number of units sold and\n\n923\n00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:00.720\nrevenue from those units.\n\n924\n00:40:00.720 --> 00:40:03.510\nWell, actually three, those two things and also what the margins were per\n\n925\n00:40:03.510 --> 00:40:05.040\nproduct. And one thing I\n\n926\n00:40:05.040 --> 00:40:08.990\nlearned very quickly in looking at the numbers was that 91% of the revenue was\n\n927\n00:40:08.990 --> 00:40:09.680\ncoming from our top\n\n928\n00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:16.480\n50 SKUs. And we had something like 253 SKUs or something. So it was very easy\n\n929\n00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:18.080\nto look at what needed to\n\n930\n00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:22.060\ngo. And that's going back to being non-emotional, being able to say, I know you\n\n931\n00:40:22.060 --> 00:40:23.120\nreally loved that\n\n932\n00:40:23.120 --> 00:40:26.000\nwhatever. But like, it's just, it's not selling. Like we're not going to keep\n\n933\n00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.600\ndoing this. So I looked\n\n934\n00:40:27.600 --> 00:40:31.020\nat that. I also looked at, okay, who do we think we can serve in today's\n\n935\n00:40:31.020 --> 00:40:32.240\ncompany? And at counter,\n\n936\n00:40:32.240 --> 00:40:36.610\nwe're really leaning into an older demographic of 35 plus. So certain of the\n\n937\n00:40:36.610 --> 00:40:37.680\nproducts just weren't\n\n938\n00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:41.030\nreally appropriate for that age group. They, I really wanted to give a\n\n939\n00:40:41.030 --> 00:40:42.880\npredominantly a woman,\n\n940\n00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.930\nnot, not exclusively a woman. I wanted them to feel seen by a brand. I think\n\n941\n00:40:46.930 --> 00:40:47.760\nthey're often\n\n942\n00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.120\nlargely ignored in the industry, yet they're loyal to brands and they're\n\n943\n00:40:51.120 --> 00:40:51.760\nconscious of their\n\n944\n00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.410\nhealth and their focus on longevity. And they have the disposable income to\n\n945\n00:40:55.410 --> 00:40:56.720\nspend on a premium\n\n946\n00:40:56.720 --> 00:41:00.470\nprice point product. And so, you know, we spend a lot of time and then I fought\n\n947\n00:41:00.470 --> 00:41:00.960\nwith the product\n\n948\n00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:03.780\ndevelopment team who could not let go of certain products. And I was like, okay\n\n949\n00:41:03.780 --> 00:41:04.480\n, are you willing\n\n950\n00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:07.820\nto bet your job on this product? Like you cared that much. And then now we have\n\n951\n00:41:07.820 --> 00:41:08.320\nbets on who's\n\n952\n00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:11.370\ngoing to win on certain things that I wanted to bring back versus what they\n\n953\n00:41:11.370 --> 00:41:12.240\nwanted. We'll see\n\n954\n00:41:12.240 --> 00:41:15.030\nthe jury's still on and who's going to win that bet. But I think that, you know\n\n955\n00:41:15.030 --> 00:41:15.760\n, you've got to go\n\n956\n00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.740\nthrough it. You've got to cut the fat and you've got to like really focus on\n\n957\n00:41:19.740 --> 00:41:20.560\nwhere can you do\n\n958\n00:41:20.560 --> 00:41:23.930\nthings well? Not just well, where are you exceptional and where are you\n\n959\n00:41:23.930 --> 00:41:24.880\nmediocre? No,\n\n960\n00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:27.250\nthere's no room for mediocrity. There are too many products in the world as it\n\n961\n00:41:27.250 --> 00:41:27.520\nis.\n\n962\n00:41:27.520 --> 00:41:31.680\nYou know, now that you're building this company again and you're doing it from\n\n963\n00:41:31.680 --> 00:41:32.800\nthe ground up again,\n\n964\n00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:37.040\nwhat's something you're building into the culture that didn't exist before?\n\n965\n00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:42.640\nIn the old culture, I think I was way more emotional. And I think some people\n\n966\n00:41:42.640 --> 00:41:43.760\nwould say there was\n\n967\n00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:51.280\na bit of a culture of fear where I was demanding, but I would, I get really\n\n968\n00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:52.160\nupset when things go\n\n969\n00:41:52.160 --> 00:41:55.270\nwrong. And there are times when I get upset. But I think one thing I'm trying\n\n970\n00:41:55.270 --> 00:41:57.440\nto do is lead from a\n\n971\n00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:03.840\nplace of sort of a calm rational place in a way that I didn't before. I always\n\n972\n00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.640\nsay like,\n\n973\n00:42:04.640 --> 00:42:08.560\nI am done with Monday morning quarterbacking. Like, I want people to know that\n\n974\n00:42:08.560 --> 00:42:08.880\nthey need to\n\n975\n00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.670\nspeak their truth and have the confidence to speak their truth, even if they\n\n976\n00:42:11.670 --> 00:42:12.640\ndisagree with me\n\n977\n00:42:12.640 --> 00:42:16.590\nor anyone else. And then once we get through that conversation, if you haven't\n\n978\n00:42:16.590 --> 00:42:17.360\nspoken your truth,\n\n979\n00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.150\nyou need to disagree and commit and we need to move on. Because I think at the\n\n980\n00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:21.040\nold company,\n\n981\n00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:25.160\nthere was a lot of like trying to be nice to each other, trying to please Greg\n\n982\n00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:25.600\n's, I'm a little\n\n983\n00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:29.600\nbit scared of her. But then, then they leave the meeting and they'd start going\n\n984\n00:42:29.600 --> 00:42:29.680\n,\n\n985\n00:42:29.680 --> 00:42:33.660\nand that's just not a good way to build a culture. So I think it is about\n\n986\n00:42:33.660 --> 00:42:35.040\nleading with confidence,\n\n987\n00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:38.480\nbeing decisive, listening to everyone's information, but knowing that I want\n\n988\n00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:39.280\nthem to have rigorous\n\n989\n00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:42.640\ndiscussions with me, and it's okay to disagree with me, but just be really\n\n990\n00:42:42.640 --> 00:42:43.280\ncertain, you know,\n\n991\n00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.470\nwhen you're, when you're taking a stand on something that you feel really\n\n992\n00:42:46.470 --> 00:42:47.680\nconfident in that choice,\n\n993\n00:42:47.680 --> 00:42:52.480\nthat goes for me too. So I'm trying to create a new type of culture. It's hard.\n\n994\n00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:53.200\nI think building\n\n995\n00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:57.150\nculture and leading people is the hardest job in the world. And I think that\n\n996\n00:42:57.150 --> 00:42:57.920\nculture gets defined\n\n997\n00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.900\nby all the things that are happening outside of the office too. Yeah, you know,\n\n998\n00:43:01.900 --> 00:43:02.880\nit's always a sign.\n\n999\n00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:06.000\nI'm sure you'd agree that, you know, when you have a good leader, you know,\n\n1000\n00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:06.880\nyour team members,\n\n1001\n00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:12.320\nthey want to keep working with you. You know, how do you, how do you go about\n\n1002\n00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:14.240\ndoing your best at\n\n1003\n00:43:14.240 --> 00:43:18.730\nthat? You know, what do you do intentionally or unintentionally, you know, to\n\n1004\n00:43:18.730 --> 00:43:20.320\nreally make sure that\n\n1005\n00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.110\nyou can keep the best of the best. And you went through that period where\n\n1006\n00:43:23.110 --> 00:43:24.160\npeople had to hang with\n\n1007\n00:43:24.160 --> 00:43:29.310\nyou, right, while you were figuring it out with them to, you know, to recreate\n\n1008\n00:43:29.310 --> 00:43:30.880\nthe future. You know,\n\n1009\n00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:35.800\nwhat do you think kept your best people with you? Well, first of all, I think\n\n1010\n00:43:35.800 --> 00:43:36.880\nthat my daughter\n\n1011\n00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:42.270\nGeorgie has said to me once, she said, \"What percentage of your team mom has\n\n1012\n00:43:42.270 --> 00:43:43.680\ncome back?\"\n\n1013\n00:43:43.680 --> 00:43:48.320\nWhether they had previously left the company completely or they were employees\n\n1014\n00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:48.720\nat the time\n\n1015\n00:43:48.720 --> 00:43:51.760\nwhen the company close down, like, \"How many people are back with you?\"\n\n1016\n00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:57.280\nHow many people decided to join you again? I said, \"At the time,\" and we've\n\n1017\n00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:57.600\nobviously\n\n1018\n00:43:57.600 --> 00:44:00.250\ngrown the team, but at the time, I said, \"Almost everyone came back.\" And she\n\n1019\n00:44:00.250 --> 00:44:01.040\nsaid, \"Wow, mom.\"\n\n1020\n00:44:01.040 --> 00:44:05.020\nLike, that's the greatest compliment of your life is the fact that all these\n\n1021\n00:44:05.020 --> 00:44:05.600\npeople wanted to do\n\n1022\n00:44:05.600 --> 00:44:09.580\nit with you, not once but twice, that they believe in you. I think I would be\n\n1023\n00:44:09.580 --> 00:44:10.400\ninterested to hear what\n\n1024\n00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:13.750\nother people would say. I know people would say that I'm an inspirational\n\n1025\n00:44:13.750 --> 00:44:14.800\nleader and I really do\n\n1026\n00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:18.160\nlead from the heart. I would hope that they would say that I'm fair and I treat\n\n1027\n00:44:18.160 --> 00:44:18.960\nthem with the respect\n\n1028\n00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:24.160\nthat they deserve, that I know task is too small for me to do, that I try to\n\n1029\n00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:26.960\nreally, like, lean in\n\n1030\n00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:31.250\nand be in the trenches with the troops. I don't believe in leading from afar. I\n\n1031\n00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:32.080\nfeel like if,\n\n1032\n00:44:32.080 --> 00:44:34.680\nyou know, I always say, \"I always come out of the bathroom and the office\n\n1033\n00:44:34.680 --> 00:44:35.440\nyelling at everyone.\"\n\n1034\n00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:37.640\nI'm like, \"Why am I the one changing the toilet paper again? Don't you guys\n\n1035\n00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:38.160\nknow how to,\n\n1036\n00:44:38.160 --> 00:44:42.110\nyou open the box, things drop down, you throw it away, you put the new toilet\n\n1037\n00:44:42.110 --> 00:44:42.640\npaper roll.\" And\n\n1038\n00:44:42.640 --> 00:44:45.830\nI say this all the time, but I think you've got to be there with your people.\n\n1039\n00:44:45.830 --> 00:44:47.200\nAnd I think that's,\n\n1040\n00:44:47.200 --> 00:44:50.990\nto me, what I would hope people would say, I do. They would say I have really\n\n1041\n00:44:50.990 --> 00:44:52.160\nhigh expectations\n\n1042\n00:44:52.160 --> 00:44:56.120\nand that I'm really tough at times, but I hope that they also know that I'm\n\n1043\n00:44:56.120 --> 00:44:56.880\ndoing my best job\n\n1044\n00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.940\nto make them better so that they can be successful in their lives and their\n\n1045\n00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:00.480\ncareer.\n\n1046\n00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:06.560\nThat's a great leadership trait that I'm going to have to figure out how to get\n\n1047\n00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:08.560\nat when I'm interviewing\n\n1048\n00:45:08.560 --> 00:45:14.810\npeople. Will you change out the toilet paper? You'd be surprised how many\n\n1049\n00:45:14.810 --> 00:45:15.680\npeople won't.\n\n1050\n00:45:15.680 --> 00:45:18.960\nI mean, that's the thing, though. At the end of the day, someone has to change\n\n1051\n00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:19.920\nthe toilet paper\n\n1052\n00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.200\nand someone needs to clean up the office and someone needs to go return that\n\n1053\n00:45:23.200 --> 00:45:23.520\npackage.\n\n1054\n00:45:23.520 --> 00:45:26.080\nAnd you know what, if you're not willing to do that, like, don't join my team.\n\n1055\n00:45:26.080 --> 00:45:27.680\nWe're in all hands\n\n1056\n00:45:27.680 --> 00:45:31.630\non that kind of company. It's not to say that every person's job is to do every\n\n1057\n00:45:31.630 --> 00:45:31.840\nsingle thing,\n\n1058\n00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:34.630\nbut if you're not willing to lean in there, a lot of people, especially younger\n\n1059\n00:45:34.630 --> 00:45:35.280\npeople today,\n\n1060\n00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:40.960\nthat don't really understand that to build a successful entity, it requires a\n\n1061\n00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:41.520\nwhole lot of\n\n1062\n00:45:41.520 --> 00:45:45.600\nhard work and a lot of that work isn't very sexy. It just isn't. You know, you\n\n1063\n00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:46.480\nhave an internal\n\n1064\n00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:51.920\ncommitment, which is not creating problems that our products will solve. Yeah.\n\n1065\n00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.480\nWell, for example,\n\n1066\n00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.490\nas a woman who's getting a little bit older, I mean, a wrinkle is not a problem\n\n1067\n00:45:57.490 --> 00:45:58.720\n. It's just a thing,\n\n1068\n00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:02.100\nright? A wrinkle is just a thing. It's a thing that happens as your age gets\n\n1069\n00:46:02.100 --> 00:46:03.120\nold, but it's like,\n\n1070\n00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:07.040\nyou know, a face with wrinkles is probably because you've smiled a lot and you\n\n1071\n00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:08.320\n've enjoyed life or\n\n1072\n00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.720\nyou've gone to the sun and you've squinted. And I think that our industry, the\n\n1073\n00:46:11.720 --> 00:46:12.880\nbeauty industry,\n\n1074\n00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.070\nhas been built on fixing problems that don't really exist. They just made them\n\n1075\n00:46:16.070 --> 00:46:16.960\ninto problems\n\n1076\n00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:20.440\nto make money off of them. Like, if you have freckles, like, what's wrong with\n\n1077\n00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:21.920\nhaving a freckle or\n\n1078\n00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.020\nwhat's wrong with having some fine lines around your face? Like, I think at the\n\n1079\n00:46:25.020 --> 00:46:25.680\nend of the day,\n\n1080\n00:46:25.680 --> 00:46:29.660\nwe're not, we're here to help you feel confident, to help your skin feel\n\n1081\n00:46:29.660 --> 00:46:30.960\nradiant and glowing. And,\n\n1082\n00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:33.400\nyeah, like, if you want to look sexy on Friday night, I'm going to give you a\n\n1083\n00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:34.000\nred lipstick if\n\n1084\n00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.120\nthat's what you want. But I don't think that these things are problems. They're\n\n1085\n00:46:37.120 --> 00:46:38.160\njust part of life.\n\n1086\n00:46:38.160 --> 00:46:42.800\nAnd especially for women, we're also this, this beauty secret thing. It's like\n\n1087\n00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:43.440\npitting people\n\n1088\n00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.380\nagainst one another. It's like, oh, what is she wearing? What is she using? It\n\n1089\n00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:46.960\nmakes her look so\n\n1090\n00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.240\ngood. Oh, not going to tell you that's a secret. I just don't believe in that.\n\n1091\n00:46:50.240 --> 00:46:51.040\nI don't prescribe to\n\n1092\n00:46:51.040 --> 00:46:55.220\nthat type of, I don't like it at all, to be totally honest. And it makes us\n\n1093\n00:46:55.220 --> 00:46:56.560\nfeel as women as we get\n\n1094\n00:46:56.560 --> 00:47:00.550\nolder that, that we have a wrinkle. Well, that's just life. You know, you're\n\n1095\n00:47:00.550 --> 00:47:01.360\nvery high touch,\n\n1096\n00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:06.080\nobviously. You're, you're emotive. You know, you're highly empathetic. You\n\n1097\n00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:07.200\nreally try to put yourself\n\n1098\n00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:12.160\ninto the customer's shoes, you know, you know, then we have this thing\n\n1099\n00:47:12.160 --> 00:47:14.000\nartificial intelligence\n\n1100\n00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:18.370\nnow coming on. And, you know, is that impacting your business or how do you\n\n1101\n00:47:18.370 --> 00:47:19.520\nthink about it? And\n\n1102\n00:47:19.520 --> 00:47:22.720\nhow is it shaping your leadership? You know, it's a really good question. And\n\n1103\n00:47:22.720 --> 00:47:23.360\nit's a challenging,\n\n1104\n00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:28.000\nit's a bit of a conundrum for me because, because beauty counter was always a B\n\n1105\n00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:28.560\ncorporation,\n\n1106\n00:47:28.560 --> 00:47:32.070\nwhich meant that we put into emphasis people plan a profit. It was a triple\n\n1107\n00:47:32.070 --> 00:47:32.560\nbottom line\n\n1108\n00:47:32.560 --> 00:47:36.720\nbusiness and a mission, truly a purpose driven organization. So fast forward to\n\n1109\n00:47:36.720 --> 00:47:37.200\ncounter the\n\n1110\n00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:40.970\nnew company, we still have that commitment to the health of the environment and\n\n1111\n00:47:40.970 --> 00:47:41.760\nto human health.\n\n1112\n00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:47.200\nIt's interesting today because I look at AI as being so effective for things\n\n1113\n00:47:47.200 --> 00:47:48.400\nlike customer support,\n\n1114\n00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:52.030\nlike tracking orders and things that are that we used to use people to do that.\n\n1115\n00:47:52.030 --> 00:47:52.560\nYou can do so\n\n1116\n00:47:52.560 --> 00:47:56.540\nmuch more efficiently or even looking at advertising and marketing and the\n\n1117\n00:47:56.540 --> 00:47:57.440\ndollars being spent.\n\n1118\n00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:02.140\nBut then there's the environmental impact right now in today's world where we\n\n1119\n00:48:02.140 --> 00:48:02.880\n're sucking so much\n\n1120\n00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:07.910\nenergy to power up this AI. And so we're trying to figure out what that balance\n\n1121\n00:48:07.910 --> 00:48:08.720\nis and how to,\n\n1122\n00:48:08.720 --> 00:48:12.080\nwhere do we use it and when and why. And I think that I haven't quite figured\n\n1123\n00:48:12.080 --> 00:48:13.040\nit out. I know that\n\n1124\n00:48:13.040 --> 00:48:17.230\nthat it is part of where we're going. And so as a leader and a disruptor, as a\n\n1125\n00:48:17.230 --> 00:48:17.600\ncompany,\n\n1126\n00:48:17.600 --> 00:48:21.220\nyou have to be utilizing it and using the power of it or you're going to be\n\n1127\n00:48:21.220 --> 00:48:22.320\nleft behind. But how\n\n1128\n00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:26.670\ndo we do so in a way that is also not out of sync with our mission. And I don't\n\n1129\n00:48:26.670 --> 00:48:27.040\nhave all the\n\n1130\n00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:31.530\nanswers. We have incorporated into customer support. We have used it for things\n\n1131\n00:48:31.530 --> 00:48:32.240\nlike when I\n\n1132\n00:48:32.240 --> 00:48:36.740\ngo to, I mean you can, like my team would say, type in a speech that sounds\n\n1133\n00:48:36.740 --> 00:48:38.880\nlike Greg Renfrew from\n\n1134\n00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:41.920\nBeauty Counter and update it to the new business she's in. And all of a sudden\n\n1135\n00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.320\nyou get something\n\n1136\n00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.300\nthat sounds almost exactly like you. And you're like, wow, that just saved me\n\n1137\n00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:45.920\nlike six hours.\n\n1138\n00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.200\nI can tweak this. I don't know. It's an interesting, it's an interesting time.\n\n1139\n00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:50.000\nI'm excited to see\n\n1140\n00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.960\nwhere it takes us. And I think in the world of creativity, it's going to be\n\n1141\n00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:55.120\nenormously impactful.\n\n1142\n00:48:55.120 --> 00:48:58.630\nAnd how do you as a leader, how are you getting yourself up to speed so that\n\n1143\n00:48:58.630 --> 00:48:59.440\nyou can lead in that\n\n1144\n00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.860\narea? Slowly. My children, I mean, I'm on chat, GBT all the time, and I'm\n\n1145\n00:49:03.860 --> 00:49:05.040\nstarting to learn about\n\n1146\n00:49:05.040 --> 00:49:09.000\nthat. I've been listening to, you know, trying to listen to podcasts, asking\n\n1147\n00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:09.600\nother leaders that\n\n1148\n00:49:09.600 --> 00:49:13.680\nwent to a dinner that was for a new wearable last Sunday night, the group of\n\n1149\n00:49:13.680 --> 00:49:15.040\nunbelievably intelligent\n\n1150\n00:49:15.040 --> 00:49:19.020\npeople. I realize like how far behind I was. And so I'm trying to get up to\n\n1151\n00:49:19.020 --> 00:49:20.320\nspeed as quickly as I can.\n\n1152\n00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:24.880\nBut you know, it's not easy to keep up with things. It's really hard. So I got\n\n1153\n00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:25.440\na long way to go,\n\n1154\n00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:30.880\nto be honest. You know, you're an entrepreneur, you build these businesses and\n\n1155\n00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:32.240\nit happens on a\n\n1156\n00:49:32.240 --> 00:49:36.430\nrelative scale fairly quickly. And so many times people look at the success\n\n1157\n00:49:36.430 --> 00:49:37.440\nthat you have and\n\n1158\n00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:42.820\nalmost describe it as this overnight success. You know, what would you tell\n\n1159\n00:49:42.820 --> 00:49:44.240\npeople about the\n\n1160\n00:49:44.240 --> 00:49:49.360\nchallenges of really building a business? Because nothing happens overnight.\n\n1161\n00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:55.360\nWell, first of all, my definition of overnight success is 10 years 24/7. That's\n\n1162\n00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:56.240\novernight success,\n\n1163\n00:49:56.240 --> 00:50:01.400\nas far as I'm concerned. But I think that people glorify entrepreneurs and\n\n1164\n00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:02.480\nbeing a founder or\n\n1165\n00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.460\nbeing a business leader. And it's just a lot of hard work. And every single day\n\n1166\n00:50:06.460 --> 00:50:07.280\n, something goes\n\n1167\n00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:11.660\nwrong, like terribly wrong. You know, in the last week, we've had, I mean, in\n\n1168\n00:50:11.660 --> 00:50:12.960\nthe last couple weeks,\n\n1169\n00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:17.450\nfor example, someone brought a ship in from China that was filled with our\n\n1170\n00:50:17.450 --> 00:50:18.720\nholiday packaging and\n\n1171\n00:50:18.720 --> 00:50:22.210\nsomeone dropped it into the port into the water and there goes our holiday\n\n1172\n00:50:22.210 --> 00:50:23.280\npackaging. Okay, well,\n\n1173\n00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.580\nthat's not on the spreadsheet or, you know, someone that you really count on\n\n1174\n00:50:26.580 --> 00:50:27.760\ndecides to go to another\n\n1175\n00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:31.860\ncompany or someone has a personal tragedy or something that you thought was\n\n1176\n00:50:31.860 --> 00:50:32.880\ngoing to be a top\n\n1177\n00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.960\nseller for whatever reason just kind of misses or the manufacturing partner\n\n1178\n00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:38.720\nover shears a serum.\n\n1179\n00:50:38.720 --> 00:50:41.200\nAnd so you can't sell it like this stuff happens every single day. And so I\n\n1180\n00:50:41.200 --> 00:50:42.560\nthink that if you\n\n1181\n00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:46.170\nwant to be an entrepreneur or a business leader, you need to buckle up. And you\n\n1182\n00:50:46.170 --> 00:50:47.040\nneed to know that\n\n1183\n00:50:47.040 --> 00:50:50.480\nyou've got to ride with all of the challenges that you're faced with every day\n\n1184\n00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:51.680\nand try to focus\n\n1185\n00:50:51.680 --> 00:50:56.540\non the things you can't control and not worry too much about the things you can\n\n1186\n00:50:56.540 --> 00:50:57.280\n't control,\n\n1187\n00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:59.760\nbecause there are some things that are just genuinely out of your control.\n\n1188\n00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:07.920\nWhat do you know now after 13 years, you know, really going after 24/7 that you\n\n1189\n00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:08.800\nwish you would\n\n1190\n00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:14.560\nhave known back then? I mean, you know, what's been that big lesson that you\n\n1191\n00:51:14.560 --> 00:51:15.120\nwish you would have\n\n1192\n00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:20.150\nknown a lot earlier in your career? I think that there are probably two\n\n1193\n00:51:20.150 --> 00:51:21.840\nconsistent themes for me.\n\n1194\n00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:26.870\nOne, being more ahead with respect to technology, because I think it's ever\n\n1195\n00:51:26.870 --> 00:51:27.840\nchanging and so are the\n\n1196\n00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:31.280\nneeds of consumers, it is hard to keep up. It's hard for everyone to keep up,\n\n1197\n00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:32.640\nbut I think that\n\n1198\n00:51:32.640 --> 00:51:36.920\nbeing more ahead of it all along would have served me well. And I think the\n\n1199\n00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:38.000\nsecond thing is more,\n\n1200\n00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:42.080\nand I don't know if it's more because I'm a woman, but I think that I allowed\n\n1201\n00:51:42.080 --> 00:51:43.360\nfor others to influence\n\n1202\n00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:48.730\nmy decisions way too much in the past. I wasn't, I would let people overshadow\n\n1203\n00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:49.520\nmy gut instinct,\n\n1204\n00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:52.380\nbecause they either had more experience with me, or they came on really\n\n1205\n00:51:52.380 --> 00:51:53.360\nstrongly in a meeting,\n\n1206\n00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:56.320\nor I was trying to keep people happy. You know, as a woman, if you're strong,\n\n1207\n00:51:56.320 --> 00:51:56.720\nyou can be\n\n1208\n00:51:56.720 --> 00:52:00.700\nconsidered to be tough or a bit. But the reality is you need to be decisive as\n\n1209\n00:52:00.700 --> 00:52:01.520\na CEO. And if your\n\n1210\n00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:06.440\ngut is telling you that, for example, years ago, I said we should be selling\n\n1211\n00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:07.680\nproducts bundled\n\n1212\n00:52:07.680 --> 00:52:10.870\nmakeup products bundled as kits, make it easy for women. They've got like five\n\n1213\n00:52:10.870 --> 00:52:11.040\nminutes,\n\n1214\n00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:14.650\nwomen are spending hours and hours putting on makeup, bundled all together and\n\n1215\n00:52:14.650 --> 00:52:15.280\nsell to them\n\n1216\n00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.900\nin a package, package kit. My chief operating officer at the time said no one's\n\n1217\n00:52:18.900 --> 00:52:19.600\ngoing to buy\n\n1218\n00:52:19.600 --> 00:52:23.580\nmakeup bundled. I'm thinking now why am I listening to a 45 year old man? Like\n\n1219\n00:52:23.580 --> 00:52:24.560\nwhat does he know\n\n1220\n00:52:24.560 --> 00:52:27.000\nabout what women want, right? And I listened to him and we didn't do it. And\n\n1221\n00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:27.600\nnow it's like\n\n1222\n00:52:27.600 --> 00:52:30.990\nthey're everywhere. They sell like hockey's. And I think I should, I should\n\n1223\n00:52:30.990 --> 00:52:32.000\nlisten to my gut. So I\n\n1224\n00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:35.610\nthink that I'm, I'm way stronger today than I was as a younger woman, whether\n\n1225\n00:52:35.610 --> 00:52:36.480\nthat was at the beauty\n\n1226\n00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:40.460\ncounter date or even, you know, 25 years ago, have confidence in yourself. If\n\n1227\n00:52:40.460 --> 00:52:41.040\nyour gut is telling\n\n1228\n00:52:41.040 --> 00:52:45.430\nyou something more times than not, you should follow it. You know, this has\n\n1229\n00:52:45.430 --> 00:52:46.400\nbeen so much fun.\n\n1230\n00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:49.190\nI want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready\n\n1231\n00:52:49.190 --> 00:52:49.680\nfor this?\n\n1232\n00:52:49.680 --> 00:52:54.640\nHere we go. The three words that best describe you. Grigarious, transparent,\n\n1233\n00:52:54.640 --> 00:52:56.160\nauthentic.\n\n1234\n00:52:56.160 --> 00:53:00.120\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Tom\n\n1235\n00:53:00.120 --> 00:53:01.040\nBrady, for sure.\n\n1236\n00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:08.750\nWho would it be? I, which I've told him. Come on. We're all in that big, big,\n\n1237\n00:53:08.750 --> 00:53:10.000\nbig admiration society\n\n1238\n00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:16.490\nfor him. What's your biggest pet peeve? All the things that hasn't does. Like,\n\n1239\n00:53:16.490 --> 00:53:17.600\noh my gosh,\n\n1240\n00:53:17.600 --> 00:53:22.000\nthere's so many, like just like loading the dishwasher in a messy way and\n\n1241\n00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:22.880\nslamming the door in the\n\n1242\n00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:25.720\nmorning when I'm trying to sleep. Like, there are a lot of those little things\n\n1243\n00:53:25.720 --> 00:53:26.320\nthat that's a\n\n1244\n00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:29.830\nmarriage thing though. I think love them dearly, but lots of little views that\n\n1245\n00:53:29.830 --> 00:53:31.360\nway. What's the\n\n1246\n00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:35.340\ncounter product that you just couldn't live without? The hands down vitamin C\n\n1247\n00:53:35.340 --> 00:53:35.920\nserum.\n\n1248\n00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:40.460\nWhat's a piece of feedback you've never forgotten? A VC that invested in my\n\n1249\n00:53:40.460 --> 00:53:40.960\ncompany,\n\n1250\n00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:47.520\nthe wedding list, and she said to me, I need to look, I need to look for a real\n\n1251\n00:53:47.520 --> 00:53:48.560\nCEO. You are not\n\n1252\n00:53:48.560 --> 00:53:56.080\na real CEO and fast forward many, many years when Mike Stone from TPG growth,\n\n1253\n00:53:56.080 --> 00:53:57.760\nwho was my largest\n\n1254\n00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:00.880\ninvestor and beauty counter said, I want you to know that you are a formidable\n\n1255\n00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:01.600\nCEO. I would put\n\n1256\n00:54:01.600 --> 00:54:04.480\nyou in front of, I would put you alongside the best of the best. It was the\n\n1257\n00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:05.440\ngreatest compliment\n\n1258\n00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:10.850\nin my life because that, that, it wasn't a, that statement early on really made\n\n1259\n00:54:10.850 --> 00:54:11.760\nme feel that I wasn't\n\n1260\n00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:15.740\nconfident. That wasn't really good at my job. What's something you've been\n\n1261\n00:54:15.740 --> 00:54:16.800\ncurious about lately that\n\n1262\n00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:25.040\nhas nothing to do with work? Faith, really exploring faith and my relationship\n\n1263\n00:54:25.040 --> 00:54:26.240\nto it and trying to\n\n1264\n00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:30.790\nunderstand the intangible side of it is something that I've been on an explor\n\n1265\n00:54:30.790 --> 00:54:32.240\natory path on over the\n\n1266\n00:54:32.240 --> 00:54:36.220\nlast number of years. What does that mean for me in my life? My values, my\n\n1267\n00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:36.800\nspirituality,\n\n1268\n00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.680\nmy religion, like all of that. It's something that I've been thinking about a\n\n1269\n00:54:39.680 --> 00:54:40.320\nlot over the last\n\n1270\n00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:45.730\ncouple of years. What's the one thing you do just for you? Absolutely blast the\n\n1271\n00:54:45.730 --> 00:54:47.440\ntunes in my car\n\n1272\n00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:52.970\nunapologetically. No matter who's with me, I love to listen to loud music every\n\n1273\n00:54:52.970 --> 00:54:54.160\nsingle day of my life.\n\n1274\n00:54:54.160 --> 00:54:58.080\nIt makes me happy. It calms me down. It gives me hope. I just love it.\n\n1275\n00:54:58.080 --> 00:55:02.960\nBesides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession?\n\n1276\n00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.840\nProbably the ring I purchased for myself when I sold VD counter. I went and I\n\n1277\n00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:08.720\nslurred on this\n\n1278\n00:55:08.720 --> 00:55:14.400\nbeautiful ring that it's just different and it's mine and I bought it with my\n\n1279\n00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:15.360\nown money and I will\n\n1280\n00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.960\nhold on to it for the rest of my life. My daughter's already already fighting\n\n1281\n00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:18.720\nover it and I'm like,\n\n1282\n00:55:18.720 --> 00:55:22.760\nI'm not dead yet. I might just like bring it with me. I'm not sure I'm going to\n\n1283\n00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:23.760\ngive it to anybody.\n\n1284\n00:55:24.720 --> 00:55:28.700\nIf I turned on the radio in your car, I know I'd hear loud music, but what\n\n1285\n00:55:28.700 --> 00:55:29.760\nwould I hear?\n\n1286\n00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:34.390\nM&M's song like, \"Lose Yourself.\" If you have one shot, one opportunity, that's\n\n1287\n00:55:34.390 --> 00:55:35.040\na pump song\n\n1288\n00:55:35.040 --> 00:55:39.210\nfor me and also a really old song, \"Bitter Sweet Symphony\" by the verb. There's\n\n1289\n00:55:39.210 --> 00:55:40.320\na couple songs that\n\n1290\n00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.840\njust play over and over and over again. I just never get sick of them.\n\n1291\n00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:48.640\nWhat's something about you a few people would know? I'm incredibly sensitive\n\n1292\n00:55:48.640 --> 00:55:49.360\nperson.\n\n1293\n00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:52.640\nWhat's one of your daily rituals something that you never miss?\n\n1294\n00:55:52.640 --> 00:55:55.840\nTaking a bath, although right now I'm in a rental because of the fires,\n\n1295\n00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:59.840\nbut I take a bath before bed every single night. It calms me down.\n\n1296\n00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:04.080\nAll right, we're out of that lightning round. That was fun. Just a few more\n\n1297\n00:56:04.080 --> 00:56:04.880\nquestions, we'll wrap\n\n1298\n00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:11.370\nit up. You've been deep in the beauty industry. What would you say to women\n\n1299\n00:56:11.370 --> 00:56:13.040\nabout what beauty really\n\n1300\n00:56:13.040 --> 00:56:19.710\nis? I think beauty is not what you think it is. I think beauty is it's not\n\n1301\n00:56:19.710 --> 00:56:21.680\nabout how you look.\n\n1302\n00:56:21.680 --> 00:56:27.360\nI think it goes well beyond that. I think that everyone has been marketed to\n\n1303\n00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:28.960\nfor years by an\n\n1304\n00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:34.540\nindustry that is not putting them first. To me, beauty is about living a\n\n1305\n00:56:34.540 --> 00:56:36.000\nhealthy lifestyle,\n\n1306\n00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.480\nhaving confidence in yourself. Yes, looking your best, doing the most with what\n\n1307\n00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:40.160\nyou've been given.\n\n1308\n00:56:40.160 --> 00:56:46.560\nBut it's not at face value, just makeup and a red lip and a perfect blow dry.\n\n1309\n00:56:46.560 --> 00:56:47.680\nThat's just not beauty.\n\n1310\n00:56:49.040 --> 00:56:53.760\nIt's the whole picture. It's your whole life. It's the sleep. It's the water.\n\n1311\n00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:54.720\nIt's the exercise.\n\n1312\n00:56:54.720 --> 00:56:59.070\nIt's the confidence. It's the friendships. It's your own value, and it's not\n\n1313\n00:56:59.070 --> 00:56:59.680\nwhat people think\n\n1314\n00:56:59.680 --> 00:57:04.840\nit is. That's so surface level. What do you see as your unfinished business,\n\n1315\n00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:06.080\nGreg, both for\n\n1316\n00:57:06.080 --> 00:57:12.080\ncounter and you personally? I think for counter, it is really about taking a\n\n1317\n00:57:12.080 --> 00:57:13.120\nleadership position in\n\n1318\n00:57:13.120 --> 00:57:20.000\nbeauty again to help create a definitive standard for clean, because what's\n\n1319\n00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:20.880\nhappened over the last\n\n1320\n00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:24.830\nnumber of years is since I stepped out of the market because I was no longer\n\n1321\n00:57:24.830 --> 00:57:25.600\nwith the company\n\n1322\n00:57:25.600 --> 00:57:28.760\nand all these other brands emerged, and the retailers knew that they had to\n\n1323\n00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:30.080\ndeal with clean\n\n1324\n00:57:30.080 --> 00:57:33.420\nbeauty, they all created their own standards as a clean. If you go to Walmart\n\n1325\n00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:34.480\nor Target or Sephora\n\n1326\n00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:38.460\nor Alter or grocery store, everyone defines it differently. I think that we owe\n\n1327\n00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:38.880\nit to the\n\n1328\n00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:43.440\nconsumer and to the brands to set a definitive standard, and so I think from a\n\n1329\n00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:44.160\nbusiness standpoint,\n\n1330\n00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:49.680\nI think that's a really important one. I know this sounds crazy because I'm now\n\n1331\n00:57:49.680 --> 00:57:50.560\n57 years old,\n\n1332\n00:57:50.560 --> 00:57:54.000\nbut I feel like I've barely scratched the potential of what I can do on this\n\n1333\n00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:54.480\nearth,\n\n1334\n00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:58.430\nand for me, the thing that I'm most passionate about is the emotional and\n\n1335\n00:57:58.430 --> 00:57:59.120\neconomic empowerment\n\n1336\n00:57:59.120 --> 00:58:03.710\nof women, powering up women, not in any way, not side-by-side with men, because\n\n1337\n00:58:03.710 --> 00:58:04.560\nso many men have\n\n1338\n00:58:04.560 --> 00:58:08.510\nplayed such an important role in my success and business and in my life, but I\n\n1339\n00:58:08.510 --> 00:58:09.200\nreally want\n\n1340\n00:58:09.200 --> 00:58:12.600\nthere to be a more equal balance out there, and so I'm going to dedicate the\n\n1341\n00:58:12.600 --> 00:58:13.840\nrest of my life to\n\n1342\n00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:17.870\ntrying to power up more women and do it in partnership with men so that the\n\n1343\n00:58:17.870 --> 00:58:19.120\nworld feels more even\n\n1344\n00:58:19.120 --> 00:58:23.070\nkilled than it does today, and I think I've got a long way to go, and I think I\n\n1345\n00:58:23.070 --> 00:58:23.520\nhave a lot more\n\n1346\n00:58:23.520 --> 00:58:28.110\nthat I can achieve. I hope so. Well, I know you will, and you know, you perse\n\n1347\n00:58:28.110 --> 00:58:28.640\nreviewed through\n\n1348\n00:58:28.640 --> 00:58:32.740\nso much, you know, what would the toast be about, the perseverance, and now\n\n1349\n00:58:32.740 --> 00:58:34.160\nhere you are with counter\n\n1350\n00:58:34.160 --> 00:58:39.680\nthis brand. I got to ask you, how's it going? I mean, are you happy? Sometimes\n\n1351\n00:58:39.680 --> 00:58:40.160\nI'm happy\n\n1352\n00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:42.680\nsome days, I think. What the hell was I thinking? You know, I had a pretty good\n\n1353\n00:58:42.680 --> 00:58:43.600\nlife. I didn't have\n\n1354\n00:58:43.600 --> 00:58:47.580\nto do this. I think that it's going well. I think it's been harder than I\n\n1355\n00:58:47.580 --> 00:58:48.800\nthought it would be. It's\n\n1356\n00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:53.150\nbeen much harder than I thought it would be, and I think that's because I might\n\n1357\n00:58:53.150 --> 00:58:54.160\n, one of my kids said\n\n1358\n00:58:54.160 --> 00:58:57.010\nthat it's the other day. Like, you are back to being a startup. It's a new\n\n1359\n00:58:57.010 --> 00:58:58.000\ncompany, Mommy. You\n\n1360\n00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:01.370\njust think that you thought you would turn it on, and it was just going to do,\n\n1361\n00:59:01.370 --> 00:59:02.480\nyou know, a million\n\n1362\n00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:05.990\ndollars of sales a day right out of the gate, and it hasn't. It's going well\n\n1363\n00:59:05.990 --> 00:59:06.800\nand we're profitable,\n\n1364\n00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.750\nand we're building on it, but I think it's been so much harder than I thought\n\n1365\n00:59:10.750 --> 00:59:12.320\nit would be. And so,\n\n1366\n00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:16.280\nI think that part has been challenging at times, and you know, honestly, has\n\n1367\n00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:16.960\nmade me scared. Like,\n\n1368\n00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.720\nsometimes I doubt myself, like, can I do it again? On the other side of things,\n\n1369\n00:59:20.720 --> 00:59:21.600\nI think about the\n\n1370\n00:59:21.600 --> 00:59:25.640\nopportunity I've been given, and like having a clean white piece of paper upon\n\n1371\n00:59:25.640 --> 00:59:26.560\nwhich to build,\n\n1372\n00:59:26.560 --> 00:59:30.720\ntaking the core attributes and tenets of an old company, and then getting to\n\n1373\n00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:31.760\nchart a new course,\n\n1374\n00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:36.480\nlike, that's a once in a lifetime, and so I'm really invigorated, encouraged,\n\n1375\n00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:37.600\nand excited about it.\n\n1376\n00:59:37.600 --> 00:59:41.560\nI know it's not going to be easy, but I do now have the confidence that we can\n\n1377\n00:59:41.560 --> 00:59:41.840\ndo it,\n\n1378\n00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:46.220\nand I'm excited about it. Fantastic. Last question here. What's one piece of\n\n1379\n00:59:46.220 --> 00:59:46.800\nadvice you'd\n\n1380\n00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:51.680\ngive to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Listen more. Leaders like to\n\n1381\n00:59:51.680 --> 00:59:52.800\nhear themselves talk.\n\n1382\n00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:58.240\nI am, I mean, I do too, but if you're not listening to your team, to the people\n\n1383\n00:59:58.240 --> 00:59:59.680\non the front lines,\n\n1384\n00:59:59.680 --> 01:00:03.040\nto your customers, so if you're ahead of a retail brand, and you're not talking\n\n1385\n01:00:03.040 --> 01:00:04.080\nto people that are\n\n1386\n01:00:04.080 --> 01:00:07.690\nat point of sale, that are busing the tables, that are serving the clients in\n\n1387\n01:00:07.690 --> 01:00:08.400\nthe stores,\n\n1388\n01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.440\nif you're not listening to customer support lines, if you're not understanding\n\n1389\n01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:12.080\nwhat your\n\n1390\n01:00:12.080 --> 01:00:14.710\nwhat your customer wants from you, and you're not listening to your team\n\n1391\n01:00:14.710 --> 01:00:15.200\nmembers,\n\n1392\n01:00:15.200 --> 01:00:18.820\nyou're not going to be a very effective leader in today's world. You just aren\n\n1393\n01:00:18.820 --> 01:00:20.240\n't. Listening is a\n\n1394\n01:00:20.240 --> 01:00:24.910\npowerful tool. And Greg, I have to tell you, I've enjoyed this conversation so\n\n1395\n01:00:24.910 --> 01:00:26.080\nmuch. Thank you.\n\n1396\n01:00:26.080 --> 01:00:30.880\nYou are an incredible leader, so talented. You have so much energy, and you\n\n1397\n01:00:30.880 --> 01:00:32.240\nknow, you've got a real\n\n1398\n01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:35.730\nmission to make a difference in this world in terms of your unfinished business\n\n1399\n01:00:35.730 --> 01:00:36.880\n, and what you\n\n1400\n01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:41.530\ncan do with your company, and also with yourself. And I've got a daughter and\n\n1401\n01:00:41.530 --> 01:00:42.880\ntwo granddaughters,\n\n1402\n01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:46.000\nand you know, let's power up those women. Let's go. Absolutely. It is great to\n\n1403\n01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:46.880\nhave a great leader\n\n1404\n01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:49.440\nlike you on this show. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's such an\n\n1405\n01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:50.320\nhonor to be here, and I'm\n\n1406\n01:00:50.320 --> 01:01:00.400\nsuper, um, glad we had the time to sit down and talk. David, what a woman. As\n\n1407\n01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:01.200\nthe kids would say,\n\n1408\n01:01:01.200 --> 01:01:07.840\nGreg is a real one. Well, she's definitely a great leader and definitely make\n\n1409\n01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:08.800\nbig things happen,\n\n1410\n01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:15.160\nand definitely has a lot of courage. It's one thing to build a company. It's\n\n1411\n01:01:15.160 --> 01:01:15.760\nanother to,\n\n1412\n01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:21.510\nyou know, sell the company. It's another to buy the company back, and then no\n\n1413\n01:01:21.510 --> 01:01:22.800\nlonger run the company,\n\n1414\n01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:29.300\nand then refound the company under a new brand name, which was close to beauty\n\n1415\n01:01:29.300 --> 01:01:30.640\ncounter, but is\n\n1416\n01:01:30.640 --> 01:01:35.480\nnow counter, which is to, I agree, much simpler and better name than beauty\n\n1417\n01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:36.720\ncounter, because\n\n1418\n01:01:36.720 --> 01:01:40.700\nif you go to the beauty aisle, you know, you're in the beauty aisle. So so\n\n1419\n01:01:40.700 --> 01:01:42.160\ncounter kind of stands\n\n1420\n01:01:42.160 --> 01:01:47.190\nout the packaging is better. So I think she's got to figure it out. She is so\n\n1421\n01:01:47.190 --> 01:01:48.880\nopen to about how\n\n1422\n01:01:48.880 --> 01:01:52.840\nhumiliating that whole process was for her. And I just love how clear it is\n\n1423\n01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:53.840\nthat she is a woman\n\n1424\n01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.520\nand a leader who is super in touch with her emotions. And it's obvious that\n\n1425\n01:01:58.520 --> 01:01:59.520\ntransparency\n\n1426\n01:01:59.520 --> 01:02:04.960\nis a huge part of how she leads and, and what is, you know, one of her guiding\n\n1427\n01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:06.080\nsort of principles\n\n1428\n01:02:06.080 --> 01:02:11.580\nin restarting counter. But she also recognizes when it's time for some\n\n1429\n01:02:11.580 --> 01:02:13.760\nemotional distance between you\n\n1430\n01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:17.710\nand the company, or you and the people that you're leading, or you and the\n\n1431\n01:02:17.710 --> 01:02:20.160\nmission. And I love that\n\n1432\n01:02:20.160 --> 01:02:24.120\nwhile she is so in tune with how she's feeling about things, she also knows\n\n1433\n01:02:24.120 --> 01:02:25.840\nwhen to kind of detach.\n\n1434\n01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:30.580\nAnd I want to know, David, how do you know when to lean in emotionally to\n\n1435\n01:02:30.580 --> 01:02:32.000\nsomething and when to\n\n1436\n01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:36.800\nseparate yourself from what you're feeling? Well, that's a really challenging\n\n1437\n01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:37.840\nquestion. Cool.\n\n1438\n01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:41.790\nBut I want to first of all talk, talk about her humiliating experience. You\n\n1439\n01:02:41.790 --> 01:02:42.880\nknow, the humiliating\n\n1440\n01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:46.930\nexperience that she talks about is that after basically four months of being\n\n1441\n01:02:46.930 --> 01:02:47.840\nthe CEO of this\n\n1442\n01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:53.460\ncompany that was acquired by private equity firm, they come in and tell her\n\n1443\n01:02:53.460 --> 01:02:55.120\nthat she's not the CEO.\n\n1444\n01:02:56.480 --> 01:03:01.060\nAnd this is her company. This is a company she built. And she thought it was\n\n1445\n01:03:01.060 --> 01:03:02.000\ndoing well. So\n\n1446\n01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:07.650\nshe was totally shocked by it. And then they put in another person as the CEO.\n\n1447\n01:03:07.650 --> 01:03:08.640\nAnd she has a\n\n1448\n01:03:08.640 --> 01:03:15.380\nmeeting with this person as the founder, and he cancels it on her. And now she\n\n1449\n01:03:15.380 --> 01:03:16.480\n's like really\n\n1450\n01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:21.850\nhumiliated, really torn up. She's not even being listened to as a founder. The\n\n1451\n01:03:21.850 --> 01:03:23.200\nperson doesn't even\n\n1452\n01:03:23.200 --> 01:03:30.320\nwant her advice. I mean, that is like unbelievably challenging. And she was\n\n1453\n01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:32.240\nquite open in explaining\n\n1454\n01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:37.830\nthat it led to a lot of tears. And she's a very emotional person. And she\n\n1455\n01:03:37.830 --> 01:03:39.360\ntalked very openly\n\n1456\n01:03:39.360 --> 01:03:43.310\nabout the fact that she had a lot of tears in this whole process. And she\n\n1457\n01:03:43.310 --> 01:03:44.320\nlearned that maybe have\n\n1458\n01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:50.580\na little bit more emotional distance and not get so tied up in some of these\n\n1459\n01:03:50.580 --> 01:03:51.600\nthings.\n\n1460\n01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:58.510\nBut you asked me the question, when do you lean in on being emotionally\n\n1461\n01:03:58.510 --> 01:03:59.040\ninvolved?\n\n1462\n01:03:59.040 --> 01:04:08.420\nMy view is always this, just follow your heart. I'll follow your gut. I mean, I\n\n1463\n01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:10.160\n'm a guy that\n\n1464\n01:04:10.160 --> 01:04:15.120\ncries at the Waltons. When they say goodnight, John Boy, I cry at a lot of\n\n1465\n01:04:15.120 --> 01:04:18.640\nthings. But I don't\n\n1466\n01:04:18.640 --> 01:04:25.920\nmind crying. If I cry, it's because I feel it. And I don't think you want to be\n\n1467\n01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:27.200\noverly gushy or\n\n1468\n01:04:27.200 --> 01:04:30.670\nanything like that. But there'd be times when I give a speech where my eyes\n\n1469\n01:04:30.670 --> 01:04:31.840\nwould moisten and\n\n1470\n01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:38.480\npeople know I'd be on the verge of, but they felt the emotion. But I think when\n\n1471\n01:04:38.480 --> 01:04:39.760\nyou're so emotional,\n\n1472\n01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:44.130\nit gets in the way of the product. It gets in the way of the work. It gets in\n\n1473\n01:04:44.130 --> 01:04:44.800\nthe way of your\n\n1474\n01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:49.600\nleadership. That's when you got to step back and say, \"Hey, I got to figure out\n\n1475\n01:04:49.600 --> 01:04:50.560\nhow to handle this\n\n1476\n01:04:50.560 --> 01:04:55.590\nbetter.\" And I think that's what she learned. I think she's very open about the\n\n1477\n01:04:55.590 --> 01:04:56.560\nfact she was\n\n1478\n01:04:56.560 --> 01:05:02.450\ntoo emotional and she's learned how to moderate it. But forget all that. This\n\n1479\n01:05:02.450 --> 01:05:04.080\nis a person that\n\n1480\n01:05:04.080 --> 01:05:10.400\ncan create a brand, build a brand, and has the courage to rebuild a brand.\n\n1481\n01:05:11.280 --> 01:05:17.440\nI mean, you strip all the emotion away. This is a high talent leader who knows\n\n1482\n01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:18.320\nhow to make things\n\n1483\n01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:22.870\nhappen. And yeah, we all learn a lot of things along the way. But I think we\n\n1484\n01:05:22.870 --> 01:05:23.920\ncan learn more from\n\n1485\n01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:27.870\nwhat she did in terms of how she runs her company, how she re-thinks her\n\n1486\n01:05:27.870 --> 01:05:30.160\nbusiness, and why she had\n\n1487\n01:05:30.160 --> 01:05:34.400\nthe courage to restart it. I read something the other day that was talking\n\n1488\n01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:35.840\nabout how to sort of\n\n1489\n01:05:35.840 --> 01:05:41.090\nlet your emotions inform things, but don't let them be the thing you make\n\n1490\n01:05:41.090 --> 01:05:43.040\ndecisions on. And it said\n\n1491\n01:05:43.040 --> 01:05:48.250\nemotions are not facts. So I think, for me, I'm also a very passionate,\n\n1492\n01:05:48.250 --> 01:05:50.080\nemotional person as well.\n\n1493\n01:05:50.080 --> 01:05:54.720\nI too cry all the time. And I think that that little paradigm shift was so\n\n1494\n01:05:54.720 --> 01:05:55.360\nhelpful for me,\n\n1495\n01:05:55.360 --> 01:06:00.390\nbecause a lot of times we feel sad or angry about something, then that becomes\n\n1496\n01:06:00.390 --> 01:06:01.120\nthe fact of the\n\n1497\n01:06:01.120 --> 01:06:05.470\nsituation. And it's just not true. So we can let our emotions kind of come and\n\n1498\n01:06:05.470 --> 01:06:06.640\ngo while also staying\n\n1499\n01:06:06.640 --> 01:06:11.620\ntethered to the reality of what's actually happening. Yeah, I think you have to\n\n1500\n01:06:11.620 --> 01:06:13.120\nhave the emotional\n\n1501\n01:06:13.120 --> 01:06:18.880\ndetachment at the right times. When it's time to make a really key decision,\n\n1502\n01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:19.520\nyou got to get the\n\n1503\n01:06:19.520 --> 01:06:24.160\nemotions out of it. You want to listen to your gut, but you want to make sure\n\n1504\n01:06:24.160 --> 01:06:25.600\nyou get all the data,\n\n1505\n01:06:25.600 --> 01:06:32.960\nget everybody's opinions. And then you try to approach it, the decision with a\n\n1506\n01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:34.640\nfresh view of\n\n1507\n01:06:34.640 --> 01:06:39.200\nthe reality that you face. And I think that's really important. One of the\n\n1508\n01:06:39.200 --> 01:06:40.800\nother things is that\n\n1509\n01:06:40.800 --> 01:06:46.240\npeople talk about emotional detachment being something you have to have with\n\n1510\n01:06:46.240 --> 01:06:47.200\nthe people you lead.\n\n1511\n01:06:47.200 --> 01:06:54.400\nI've always thought that was a bunch of book. I always felt that I wanted to be\n\n1512\n01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:58.400\nemotionally involved with my people. I wanted them to know me. I wanted to know\n\n1513\n01:06:58.400 --> 01:06:58.880\nthem.\n\n1514\n01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:02.160\nI wanted to be close to them. I wanted them to be able to share with me. I\n\n1515\n01:07:02.160 --> 01:07:03.120\nwanted to share with\n\n1516\n01:07:03.120 --> 01:07:09.610\nthem. And that means you have to make yourself vulnerable. And that means that\n\n1517\n01:07:09.610 --> 01:07:11.120\nhaving emotional\n\n1518\n01:07:11.120 --> 01:07:16.910\ndetachment with your people just never really fit the bill for me. Because I\n\n1519\n01:07:16.910 --> 01:07:18.800\nwanted that two-way\n\n1520\n01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:25.260\nstreet. I wanted that relationship. And one person can't be detached and the\n\n1521\n01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:26.000\nother isn't.\n\n1522\n01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:31.280\nThat's my view. And I know a lot of people feel differently than me.\n\n1523\n01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:34.270\nIt's also part of your superpower. So I think there's a high level of self\n\n1524\n01:07:34.270 --> 01:07:35.600\nawareness too that\n\n1525\n01:07:35.600 --> 01:07:38.320\nthat's how you really can build trust and motivate people.\n\n1526\n01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:42.960\nMaybe so. But that worked for me. And I think the most important thing is that\n\n1527\n01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:43.600\nyou find something\n\n1528\n01:07:43.600 --> 01:07:49.280\nthat works for you. And that authenticity is what will build the trust. But I\n\n1529\n01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:50.400\ndo believe that\n\n1530\n01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:57.760\nbuilding a powerful relationship requires a vulnerability and an emotional\n\n1531\n01:07:57.760 --> 01:07:58.320\nconnection\n\n1532\n01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:03.700\nthat you can't have by thinking, \"Hey, I'm the president. I'm the CEO. I got to\n\n1533\n01:08:03.700 --> 01:08:04.320\nbe detached\n\n1534\n01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:09.280\nso I could make the tough decision.\" I think you get detached when you make the\n\n1535\n01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:09.840\ndecision,\n\n1536\n01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:13.760\nbut not necessarily in the process. Speaking of being vulnerable,\n\n1537\n01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:19.140\nDavid, obviously this whole story about beauty counter to counter and Greg left\n\n1538\n01:08:19.140 --> 01:08:19.440\nand then she\n\n1539\n01:08:19.440 --> 01:08:23.790\ncome back. It's crazy. But at one point in the episode, Greg buys back the\n\n1540\n01:08:23.790 --> 01:08:25.040\nbusiness only to have\n\n1541\n01:08:25.040 --> 01:08:30.810\nit shut down. She said, \"To live, it actually had to die first.\" That's such a\n\n1542\n01:08:30.810 --> 01:08:31.520\npowerful line.\n\n1543\n01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:35.870\nI'm curious. Is there a story, David, from your career when you had to kill\n\n1544\n01:08:35.870 --> 01:08:37.040\nsomething and let it\n\n1545\n01:08:37.040 --> 01:08:41.120\ndie in order for it to live? And how'd you talk about that with your team?\n\n1546\n01:08:41.120 --> 01:08:45.440\nI think most of the things I killed, I didn't want to have come back.\n\n1547\n01:08:45.440 --> 01:08:52.440\nYou did not want them to reincarnate. But what she's saying here is that she\n\n1548\n01:08:52.440 --> 01:08:53.120\nhad a brand\n\n1549\n01:08:53.120 --> 01:08:58.530\nthat she knew for it to maximize over the long term, she's going to have to\n\n1550\n01:08:58.530 --> 01:08:59.840\nshut it down so she\n\n1551\n01:08:59.840 --> 01:09:04.330\ncould rebuild it the right way. She also talked about the process she used to\n\n1552\n01:09:04.330 --> 01:09:04.880\ndo that with her\n\n1553\n01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:08.390\npeople. She said, \"Hey, I don't have all the answers right now about how we're\n\n1554\n01:09:08.390 --> 01:09:09.200\ngoing to come back,\n\n1555\n01:09:09.200 --> 01:09:14.280\nbut we are. Give me some time and together we'll figure it out.\" And I like\n\n1556\n01:09:14.280 --> 01:09:16.240\nthat. But she knew that\n\n1557\n01:09:16.240 --> 01:09:22.000\nwhere she was at was untenable for the long term in terms of maximizing the\n\n1558\n01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:22.720\npotential. You might\n\n1559\n01:09:22.720 --> 01:09:26.700\nhave been able to struggle and do okay, but she doesn't want to do just okay.\n\n1560\n01:09:26.700 --> 01:09:28.080\nShe wants to do great.\n\n1561\n01:09:28.080 --> 01:09:33.450\nAnd hopefully she made the right decision and we'll find out. We sure will.\n\n1562\n01:09:33.450 --> 01:09:36.160\nJust happened in 2025,\n\n1563\n01:09:36.160 --> 01:09:41.310\nso we'll see. David, one more sort of theme that I'd love to just get your take\n\n1564\n01:09:41.310 --> 01:09:41.600\non.\n\n1565\n01:09:41.600 --> 01:09:48.000\nWhen Greg was replaced as CEO of Beauty Counter, she talks about struggling\n\n1566\n01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:48.720\nwith that person that\n\n1567\n01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:52.700\nreplaced her because she just thought that he was arrogant. And I love when she\n\n1568\n01:09:52.700 --> 01:09:53.760\nsays that arrogance\n\n1569\n01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:58.640\nhas no place in the business world. But let's be honest, you're probably going\n\n1570\n01:09:58.640 --> 01:09:58.960\nto work for\n\n1571\n01:09:58.960 --> 01:10:03.160\nsomeone who's arrogant at some time in your career because it's just the world\n\n1572\n01:10:03.160 --> 01:10:04.240\nthat we live in.\n\n1573\n01:10:04.240 --> 01:10:07.940\nI want to know, for the people out there who might be working for someone who\n\n1574\n01:10:07.940 --> 01:10:08.560\nis arrogant,\n\n1575\n01:10:08.560 --> 01:10:15.050\nhow do you sit them down and tell them that they're arrogant without it feeling\n\n1576\n01:10:15.050 --> 01:10:15.920\nlike you're\n\n1577\n01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:19.900\njust calling someone a jerk? I don't know the real answer to that one. I mean,\n\n1578\n01:10:19.900 --> 01:10:21.200\nI've never worked\n\n1579\n01:10:21.200 --> 01:10:27.150\nfor somebody who is arrogant. Thank God I never had that. To what I was in the\n\n1580\n01:10:27.150 --> 01:10:28.320\nagency business,\n\n1581\n01:10:28.320 --> 01:10:34.240\nI had arrogant clients who had a way of belittling people and people who work\n\n1582\n01:10:34.240 --> 01:10:34.560\nfor them,\n\n1583\n01:10:34.560 --> 01:10:39.080\npeople who work in the advertising agency, whatever. But I was coming up in my\n\n1584\n01:10:39.080 --> 01:10:40.000\ncareer and at that\n\n1585\n01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:45.840\npoint in time, I wasn't in any position to tell him how arrogant he was because\n\n1586\n01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:46.320\nhe was the type\n\n1587\n01:10:46.320 --> 01:10:50.400\nof guy who could have fired me. So I think you're in a really tough situation\n\n1588\n01:10:50.400 --> 01:10:52.240\nwhen that happens.\n\n1589\n01:10:52.240 --> 01:10:56.520\nBut if you work with someone and you're with them day to day and they have an\n\n1590\n01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:58.400\narrogant tendency,\n\n1591\n01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:08.720\nI think the way you can be heard is to do your job so well that they're going\n\n1592\n01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:09.600\nto listen to what\n\n1593\n01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:15.950\nyou have to say. But I remember what Pat Kelsey, the coach for the University\n\n1594\n01:11:15.950 --> 01:11:16.960\nof Louisville basketball\n\n1595\n01:11:16.960 --> 01:11:20.940\nteam said, you got to crush it where you're at. I think if you crush it where\n\n1596\n01:11:20.940 --> 01:11:21.520\nyou're at,\n\n1597\n01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:30.880\nthen you earn the respect and the right to maybe give a person some feedback in\n\n1598\n01:11:30.880 --> 01:11:31.600\na special way.\n\n1599\n01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:35.600\nAnd the feedback model I always believe is, hey, here's what I appreciate about\n\n1600\n01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:36.080\nyou.\n\n1601\n01:11:36.080 --> 01:11:39.590\nYou have all these great tendencies and here's how I think you can be more\n\n1602\n01:11:39.590 --> 01:11:41.360\neffective. You may not\n\n1603\n01:11:41.360 --> 01:11:46.180\nrealize this, but you're a bit arrogant and it comes off that way sometimes.\n\n1604\n01:11:46.180 --> 01:11:46.960\nAnd I know that\n\n1605\n01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:49.440\nyou don't want to come off that way and that's why I'm sharing it with you\n\n1606\n01:11:49.440 --> 01:11:50.480\nbecause you don't\n\n1607\n01:11:50.480 --> 01:11:53.760\nwant to be that way. I know you don't want to be that way. And maybe he does or\n\n1608\n01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:54.480\nmaybe she does.\n\n1609\n01:11:54.480 --> 01:12:00.560\nBut you kind of shame him into accepting the feedback and hopefully doing\n\n1610\n01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:01.440\nsomething with it.\n\n1611\n01:12:01.440 --> 01:12:04.320\nWell, you said you didn't know how to answer that question and you damn sure\n\n1612\n01:12:04.320 --> 01:12:04.960\njust did.\n\n1613\n01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:07.200\nSo it probably took me longer than it should have.\n\n1614\n01:12:07.200 --> 01:12:11.920\nNo, I love it. That's so helpful. David, what's one thing from your\n\n1615\n01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:13.200\nconversation with Greg that\n\n1616\n01:12:13.200 --> 01:12:17.520\nyou're going to take with you into your leadership and your life and your work?\n\n1617\n01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:25.920\nWell, I think if you are powerful and you are in a position where you have\n\n1618\n01:12:25.920 --> 01:12:27.280\nresponsibility,\n\n1619\n01:12:27.280 --> 01:12:33.120\nyou never stand up anybody. Yeah. I mean, the fact that that person canceled\n\n1620\n01:12:33.120 --> 01:12:34.720\nthe meeting with\n\n1621\n01:12:34.720 --> 01:12:41.440\nthe founder and didn't reschedule it said that that person said to the founder\n\n1622\n01:12:41.440 --> 01:12:42.480\nthat she didn't\n\n1623\n01:12:42.480 --> 01:12:48.330\ncount. And I mean, I've always tried to show people that they count and they\n\n1624\n01:12:48.330 --> 01:12:49.360\nmatter to me,\n\n1625\n01:12:49.360 --> 01:12:54.210\nbut that just reinforces the deep down belief that I have is that you don't\n\n1626\n01:12:54.210 --> 01:12:55.280\nstand people up.\n\n1627\n01:12:55.280 --> 01:13:00.150\nYou don't, you don't, you don't belittle them. You, you know, you honor and\n\n1628\n01:13:00.150 --> 01:13:01.360\nrespect everybody.\n\n1629\n01:13:02.080 --> 01:13:06.360\nDavid, another fantastic episode. I freaking love Greg. Such a good\n\n1630\n01:13:06.360 --> 01:13:07.920\nconversation.\n\n1631\n01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:12.090\nWell, thank you so much for joining another episode of How Leaders Lead. Stay\n\n1632\n01:13:12.090 --> 01:13:12.640\ntuned for\n\n1633\n01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:14.320\nnext week and we'll see you then.\n","is_pinned",false,"pinned_at","is_featured","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL2307694987.mp3","dx_media_id",2599,"video_media_id","thumbnail_image_media_id","published_date","2025-12-04","itunes_episode_id",268,"youtube_id","5YpdPT7LKwI","2025-12-04T17:00:24.000000Z","dx_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/QzK0BUxK5W0YxPyAn6dS7WayrE734lBC1k1uuMIE.mp3","dx_filename","QzK0BUxK5W0YxPyAn6dS7WayrE734lBC1k1uuMIE.mp3","dx_mux_playback_id","GM02JlG1F3ln8tzFLkTyvFbFwMvGwoCKJr6GyxARNgCU","dx_waveform_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/waveforms/2599.json","video_url","video_mux_playback_id","duration",4403531,"thumbnail_url","https://img.youtube.com/vi/5YpdPT7LKwI/maxresdefault.jpg","thumbnail_image_url","dx_media",{"_13":66,"_95":79,"_96":77,"_97":-5,"_31":81,"_33":98,"_99":-5,"_100":83,"_86":87,"_101":-5},"video_media","thumbnail_image_media","filename","url","status","kbUzi3I4YHjF02HtQJkrVa2fC5kd4CRvxOKQv9ZXKVm00","mux_upload_id","waveform_url","preview_media_id","first_name","Gregg","last_name","Renfrew","job_title","Counter, Founder and CEO","Gregg Renfrew, Counter, Beautycounter, beauty, wellness, founder, entrepreneur, woman, female, women","external_links","https://www.instagram.com/greggrenfrew/,https://www.linkedin.com/in/greggrenfrew/,https://www.vogue.com/article/after-a-quiet-testing-phase-gregg-renfrews-counter-makes-its-official-debut",0,"image_media_id",2587,2588,"2026-07-20T20:39:32.000000Z","send_push_notification_at","image_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/3yJ6xETVBr1HEN0c8VwSdCcrvQZGXnEP1HxoH2Lx.jpg","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/oh3jQzlWBjqpbj7HArXYqUbpNZO5aSwoVESquxBH.jpg","https://www.howleaderslead.com/leaders/256/gregg-renfrew","industry_id",5,"industry",{"_13":122,"_133":134,"_135":137},"industries",[132],"image_media",{"_13":113,"_95":131,"_96":118,"_97":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_99":-5,"_100":-5,"_86":-5,"_101":-5},{"_13":114,"_95":130,"_96":119,"_97":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_99":-5,"_100":-5,"_86":-5,"_101":-5},"oh3jQzlWBjqpbj7HArXYqUbpNZO5aSwoVESquxBH.jpg","3yJ6xETVBr1HEN0c8VwSdCcrvQZGXnEP1HxoH2Lx.jpg",{"_13":122,"_133":134,"_135":136},"name","Health and Wellness","pivot",{"_35":36,"_121":122},{"_35":36,"_121":122},"user","token","favorites",[],"collections",[],"env",{"_146":147,"_148":149,"_150":151,"_152":153,"_154":155},"GOOGLE_CLIENT_ID","644017954836-qpllhu38r0tsrtfq85ukntcvsb0akbht.apps.googleusercontent.com","APPLE_CLIENT_ID","com.howleaderslead.webapp","APPLE_REDIRECT_URI","https://www.howleaderslead.com/auth/apple-callback","APP_URL","https://howleaderslead.com","GTM_ID",""]