[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_139":-5,"_140":-5,"_141":142,"_143":144,"_145":146},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3246/how-to-bring-people-into-the-strategy-and-vision-process","id",3246,"title","How to bring people into the strategy and vision process","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.640\nDid you bring your team together to develop that vision\n\n2\n00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.680\nor did you go into your office and come out with it one day\n\n3\n00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:08.520\nand say this is where we're going and then get the feedback?\n\n4\n00:00:08.520 --> 00:00:09.600\nWhere did you start?\n\n5\n00:00:09.600 --> 00:00:12.840\nThe question I posted to them is let's write the newspaper article\n\n6\n00:00:12.840 --> 00:00:15.840\nas to what this company would look like in 2025.\n\n7\n00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:17.600\nAnd each of you are the journalists.\n\n8\n00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:19.080\nYou're the journalist for your division.\n\n9\n00:00:19.080 --> 00:00:21.480\nYou've got to write it down in two pages.\n\n10\n00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:25.920\nSo effectively it turned, it took a 300 page strategic plan\n\n11\n00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:27.880\nthat was quite complex to digest\n\n12\n00:00:27.880 --> 00:00:31.720\nand it turned it into 20 pages of what the leaders\n\n13\n00:00:31.720 --> 00:00:35.120\naspire to be able to deliver over the next five years.\n\n14\n00:00:35.120 --> 00:00:37.800\nAnd off the back of that, David, I was able to pick the eyes\n\n15\n00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:40.480\nout of each of what the ambition statements were\n\n16\n00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:42.920\nand then ask them how they were going to get it done.\n\n17\n00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.360\nSo we reverse engineered the strategy of the company\n\n18\n00:00:45.360 --> 00:00:48.600\nfrom what would like to be hypothetical,\n\n19\n00:00:48.600 --> 00:00:52.840\nmultidisciplinary, lots of options and lots of choices.\n\n20\n00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.040\nBasically to an ambition statement where a company\n\n21\n00:00:55.040 --> 00:00:57.920\nin crisis was asked what do you want it to look like\n\n22\n00:00:57.920 --> 00:00:59.120\nin five years time?\n\n23\n00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:00.600\nAnd that brought the team together\n\n24\n00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:04.200\nbecause it was an element of doing things very differently.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",1358900,"end_time",1423099,"keywords","Vision, strategy, collaboration, mission statement, teamwork","slug","how-to-bring-people-into-the-strategy-and-vision-process","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","MJ2hWWkRTjgOlD332Y9mARLHozTD7q2arMSf4J7cadI","mux_asset_id","q00UKUAWfe8OiNv02QPzcj012eiIWpgI6LtzTMlh9SxOhI","leader_id",268,"episode_id",420,"updated_at","2026-03-12T15:54:18.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3246/how-to-bring-people-into-the-strategy-and-vision-process","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_103":104,"_105":106,"_107":108,"_25":109,"_110":111,"_61":112,"_58":112,"_113":114,"_68":115,"_39":116,"_117":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_118":119,"_91":120,"_44":121,"_122":123,"_124":125,"_46":-5,"_126":127,"_128":129,"_95":130,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":-5,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":76,"_43":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_46":-5,"_92":93,"_94":-5,"_95":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Pick team players over individual performers","pick-team-players-over-individual-performers","Individually brilliant people who can't play on a team will hurt you more than help you. Pick team players first, even if it means passing on someone with exceptional talent.","summary","

Peter Wharton-Hood became CEO of LIFE Healthcare in August 2020 – right in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic – with no healthcare experience.

He was an accomplished banking executive, but he had zero context for what it takes to run a hospital. And it was his job to lead 16,000 healthcare workers through a generational crisis.

But Peter stepped into the role with a team-first philosophy that’s shaped his whole career. His people are his priority. He puts the team’s best interest before his own, and he isn’t afraid to cut a top performer if they aren’t a team player.

This episode will help you think differently about what really matters when building a team, and it’ll give you the courage to make the hard calls that great team culture requires.

You’ll also learn:

The most important factor when making a career move (most people miss it)
A fun exercise you can use to bring your team into the vision and strategy process
How to have a tough personnel conversation
Why you may NOT want to be a tech trailblazer

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.080\nHello, friends, and welcome to another edition of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n2\n00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:05.280\nNovak. Today,\n\n3\n00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.440\nwe have Peter Wharton Hood on the show. Peter is the CEO of Life Healthcare,\n\n4\n00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:10.320\nand he took over\n\n5\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:15.680\nin August of 2020, right in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, Peter was\n\n6\n00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:16.240\nan accomplished\n\n7\n00:00:16.240 --> 00:00:20.320\nbanking executive, but he had no healthcare experience and zero context for\n\n8\n00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.040\nwhat it took\n\n9\n00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:25.840\nto run a hospital. Yet it was his job to lead 16,000 healthcare workers through\n\n10\n00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:26.720\nthis generational\n\n11\n00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:31.930\ncrisis. Peter stepped into that role with a team-first philosophy, and that\n\n12\n00:00:31.930 --> 00:00:32.880\nreally has shaped his\n\n13\n00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.700\nentire career. In this episode, you'll learn how to think differently about\n\n14\n00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:37.680\nwhat really matters\n\n15\n00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:41.920\nwhen building a team, and you'll gain from Peter the courage to make hard calls\n\n16\n00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:42.880\nthat great team\n\n17\n00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:47.410\nculture requires. Enjoy this episode with David and Peter, and I'll see you at\n\n18\n00:00:47.410 --> 00:00:48.240\nthe end of the\n\n19\n00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:58.190\nepisode for the debrief. It's great to have a conversation with one of the\n\n20\n00:00:58.190 --> 00:01:00.160\nhappiest guys I know.\n\n21\n00:01:00.160 --> 00:01:04.640\nI mean, you've always got a smile on your face. What makes you so happy?\n\n22\n00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.960\nHe tells me, what an interesting way of starting a conversation. I think it's\n\n23\n00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:09.840\nthe way that I was\n\n24\n00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:15.050\nraised by my mother. I think in the context of how you wake up, each day is a\n\n25\n00:01:15.050 --> 00:01:17.520\ngift. And if you\n\n26\n00:01:17.520 --> 00:01:20.760\npositive in the way you approach the day, lots of people are positive around\n\n27\n00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:21.840\nyou. And I think that\n\n28\n00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:26.150\njust feeds on itself. So not mind, it's the positive, but I just, yes, I'm a\n\n29\n00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:26.960\nhappy guy.\n\n30\n00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:32.170\nYou are. You are happy, guys. Is there anything you do to get yourself into\n\n31\n00:01:32.170 --> 00:01:33.040\nthat frame of mind\n\n32\n00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.200\nbefore you go to work? No, I think it's just been years of repeating the same\n\n33\n00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:37.840\npractice of\n\n34\n00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.930\nsurrounding myself with people that are really careful, that care for me, and\n\n35\n00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:42.560\nthat gets me off\n\n36\n00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.760\nto a good start each day. I heard a story about you that you once dyed your\n\n37\n00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:47.840\nhair blue\n\n38\n00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:53.120\nto motivate your team. Tell us that story. I guess you do things when you're\n\n39\n00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:53.760\nyoung without\n\n40\n00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:58.060\nthinking. But the instinct in those particular moments was we were the subject\n\n41\n00:01:58.060 --> 00:01:58.960\nof a really hostile\n\n42\n00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:04.170\ntakeover bid. In that particular moment, there was some desolation in the\n\n43\n00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:04.960\nmanagement team. Are we\n\n44\n00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:10.160\nin? Are we out? And sometimes you make a bold statement. And my bold statement\n\n45\n00:02:10.160 --> 00:02:10.160\nwas,\n\n46\n00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:17.360\nI'll show the teams around me that my blood was blue, and use that as an excuse\n\n47\n00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:17.760\nto tell them\n\n48\n00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:21.500\nthat my hair turned blue and turn it into a bit of a story. It's a bit of a\n\n49\n00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:22.880\nrisk to take when you,\n\n50\n00:02:22.880 --> 00:02:25.650\nnot the boss of the business, because you're not quite sure how the bosses are\n\n51\n00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:26.320\ngoing to react,\n\n52\n00:02:26.320 --> 00:02:32.220\nbut yes, I did do it. Why the blue color? That was the flag carrying color of\n\n53\n00:02:32.220 --> 00:02:32.800\nthe standard bank.\n\n54\n00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.010\nWe were always recognized as the blue bank. And I decided to use that thematic\n\n55\n00:02:38.010 --> 00:02:38.560\nthroughout the\n\n56\n00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.610\norganization that my blood was blue and it turned my hair blue and some\n\n57\n00:02:42.610 --> 00:02:43.920\nimportant.\n\n58\n00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:50.050\nYou know, you talk about moments. We tend to remember moments, not business as\n\n59\n00:02:50.050 --> 00:02:50.560\nusual.\n\n60\n00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.960\nWhen else have you deliberately gone against the grain or done something to\n\n61\n00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:55.760\nsort of shock\n\n62\n00:02:55.760 --> 00:03:00.970\nthe system to create a moment that your team will never forget? In those\n\n63\n00:03:00.970 --> 00:03:01.600\nparticular instances,\n\n64\n00:03:01.600 --> 00:03:06.900\nit's a question of the levels of maturity that existed at the time. We have\n\n65\n00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:08.000\ndone some,\n\n66\n00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:13.820\nI'm going to say different things, interviewing people late at night, having\n\n67\n00:03:13.820 --> 00:03:14.720\nepisodes where\n\n68\n00:03:14.720 --> 00:03:18.650\nthe management team of, you know, pushed a little bit beyond their comfort\n\n69\n00:03:18.650 --> 00:03:20.240\nzones by doing things in\n\n70\n00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.400\nextraordinary, in extraordinary circumstances. We were knitting a team together\n\n71\n00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:25.040\nand I got them\n\n72\n00:03:25.040 --> 00:03:32.480\nto do a firewall. HR executive looked at me like I'd lost it and I said, well,\n\n73\n00:03:32.480 --> 00:03:32.960\nwe're going to have\n\n74\n00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:38.780\nto walk through fire in a commercial sense. So let's do a firewall. And the top\n\n75\n00:03:38.780 --> 00:03:39.680\n50 executives\n\n76\n00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.890\nall had to walk across about 12 meters of hot calls. We were correctly trained.\n\n77\n00:03:44.890 --> 00:03:45.440\nBut yes,\n\n78\n00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:49.840\nwe put them through a firewall and it worked. It worked.\n\n79\n00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.000\nI'm glad it worked for you. I had a guy down in Australia do that once and they\n\n80\n00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.640\ndid the fire\n\n81\n00:03:54.640 --> 00:04:02.740\nwalk. And one guy ended up suing the company. So, you know, give me a snapshot\n\n82\n00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:03.840\nof, of life,\n\n83\n00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:09.050\nhealth care, and the business that you lead today. The business that I led in\n\n84\n00:04:09.050 --> 00:04:09.760\n2020 was\n\n85\n00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:14.970\nmulti-geography, 23 countries, multi-disciplined, large hospital business in\n\n86\n00:04:14.970 --> 00:04:15.680\nSouth Africa,\n\n87\n00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.680\nbig diagnostic and imaging business across Western Europe and in emerging\n\n88\n00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:24.800\nradiopharmaceutical business in the United States. And that, as exciting as\n\n89\n00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:25.520\nthat seemed,\n\n90\n00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.910\nit was an organization that was too complex. And the deliberate decision we\n\n91\n00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:31.120\ntook was to\n\n92\n00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.040\nsimplify the business and get it back to basics. And when I talk about basics,\n\n93\n00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:36.160\nwe're now a South\n\n94\n00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:42.790\nAfrican-focused hospital group. We have 42 large privately owned hospitals and\n\n95\n00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:44.480\naccount for about\n\n96\n00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:50.300\n16,000 nursing staff and have about 700,000 patient visits between the course\n\n97\n00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:50.800\nof ETA.\n\n98\n00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:56.560\nSo, it is a South African-focused hospital business now. Peter, how do you stay\n\n99\n00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:01.760\nin touch with the front line in that business? There are two ways of doing it\n\n100\n00:05:01.760 --> 00:05:02.480\nin this particular\n\n101\n00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.680\njob. I always believe sitting behind your desk is a dangerous place from which\n\n102\n00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:06.080\nto view the\n\n103\n00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:10.750\ncorporation. So, we have a federal model that runs the hospital business where\n\n104\n00:05:10.750 --> 00:05:11.360\nthe hospital\n\n105\n00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:16.640\nmanager actually has a team around him or her that is multi-disciplinary and\n\n106\n00:05:16.640 --> 00:05:17.360\neffectively runs\n\n107\n00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.890\nthe hospital as a largely independent unit by the same token. That means that\n\n108\n00:05:21.890 --> 00:05:22.480\nthe leadership\n\n109\n00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.190\nhave actually got to get their feet on the ground and they've actually got to\n\n110\n00:05:25.190 --> 00:05:26.080\nget to the hospital\n\n111\n00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:30.390\nunits themselves because hospitals are complex businesses. David, they have\n\n112\n00:05:30.390 --> 00:05:31.520\nlots of moving parts\n\n113\n00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:36.730\nand you can't just sit back and look at financial information. You actually\n\n114\n00:05:36.730 --> 00:05:37.600\nhave to get out there.\n\n115\n00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:43.120\nSo, I and the executive team spend time visiting the hospitals in real time to\n\n116\n00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:43.760\nmake sure that we\n\n117\n00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:47.770\nknow who those loyal people are that are making the businesses work. You know,\n\n118\n00:05:47.770 --> 00:05:48.480\nI've heard you say\n\n119\n00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:54.620\nthat you didn't choose healthcare that healthcare chose you. What do you mean\n\n120\n00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:56.000\nby that? It was one\n\n121\n00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.460\nof those moments where a whole lot of stars lined up. My wife had said to me\n\n122\n00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:02.000\nthat retirement was too\n\n123\n00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.240\nearly and that wasn't going to end well for me, which is an instruction to go\n\n124\n00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:05.920\nand find a job.\n\n125\n00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.560\nI had to take a step back and say what I was really looking for and I was\n\n126\n00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:12.880\nlooking for complexity.\n\n127\n00:06:12.880 --> 00:06:20.980\nI was looking for an industry that had high levels of regulatory involvement\n\n128\n00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:21.520\nand government\n\n129\n00:06:21.520 --> 00:06:25.600\nengagement. And I was also looking for something which was completely different\n\n130\n00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:26.240\nto banking.\n\n131\n00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:31.450\nAnd through a set of circumstances, one was considered advanced on the golf\n\n132\n00:06:31.450 --> 00:06:32.080\ncourse where I\n\n133\n00:06:32.080 --> 00:06:35.590\nwas pointed towards healthcare as being an industry that ticked all those boxes\n\n134\n00:06:35.590 --> 00:06:36.560\n. I was then locked\n\n135\n00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:41.090\nbehind my desk during COVID, so I decided to register for a course on the\n\n136\n00:06:41.090 --> 00:06:42.320\nHarvard EDX platform\n\n137\n00:06:42.320 --> 00:06:48.400\nin clinical safety systems, which was completely out of my skill set. And then\n\n138\n00:06:48.400 --> 00:06:48.960\nout of the blue,\n\n139\n00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:52.900\ngot a call from a headhunter suggesting that they were looking for a chief\n\n140\n00:06:52.900 --> 00:06:54.080\nexecutive of a healthcare\n\n141\n00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:58.280\ncompany. And whilst they considered my leadership credentials, they said, don't\n\n142\n00:06:58.280 --> 00:06:58.960\nget too excited.\n\n143\n00:06:58.960 --> 00:07:03.250\nWe're actually looking for a doctor to which my candid response was, well, if\n\n144\n00:07:03.250 --> 00:07:04.080\nyou're looking for\n\n145\n00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:09.200\na doctor to run it, then I'm clearly not the person. And they didn't speak to\n\n146\n00:07:09.200 --> 00:07:10.080\nme for six weeks, which\n\n147\n00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:15.900\nwas completely an understandable outcome. But then they did find me and asked\n\n148\n00:07:15.900 --> 00:07:17.760\nme to take the\n\n149\n00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:22.880\nindustry seriously. And in started doing without thinking, I was going to end\n\n150\n00:07:22.880 --> 00:07:23.840\nup there. I got\n\n151\n00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:28.160\ncaptured in a very positive way by the excitement that the industry presented\n\n152\n00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:28.880\nand the challenges\n\n153\n00:07:28.880 --> 00:07:33.030\nthat presented. And they were not considered myself extremely lucky to have\n\n154\n00:07:33.030 --> 00:07:34.080\nfound my way into the\n\n155\n00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:39.680\nindustry. So what did not being a doctor bring to you that helped you do your\n\n156\n00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:42.080\njob, then perhaps\n\n157\n00:07:42.080 --> 00:07:48.160\nbeing a doctor? I think it was a distinct advantage. Despite the conversations\n\n158\n00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:49.200\nI had with Dr. Toby\n\n159\n00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:54.410\nCosgrove through the process, where he explained to me how difficult it was\n\n160\n00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:55.600\ngoing to be not being a\n\n161\n00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.960\ndoctor. I actually think it helped me enormously because part of the leadership\n\n162\n00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:05.490\nrecipe that I've got is you have to concede the points that you don't know that\n\n163\n00:08:05.490 --> 00:08:06.560\nthe team around\n\n164\n00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.380\nyou is always going to be better than you are as an individual. And to put that\n\n165\n00:08:10.380 --> 00:08:10.800\ninto stark\n\n166\n00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.470\nrelief in health care by not being a doctor, I knew straight away, there was at\n\n167\n00:08:14.470 --> 00:08:15.440\nleast 20% of\n\n168\n00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:20.640\nthe hospital business that I knew absolutely nothing about. But the 80% around\n\n169\n00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:21.520\nprocess and\n\n170\n00:08:21.520 --> 00:08:25.210\ncorporate and financing and technology, I had a good handle on giving my\n\n171\n00:08:25.210 --> 00:08:26.160\nbanking background.\n\n172\n00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:31.980\nSo I think that listening humility was stock. It was a lot that I didn't know.\n\n173\n00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:32.800\nAnd they're in\n\n174\n00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:36.640\nallowed me to flourish as a leader by getting the right team around me.\n\n175\n00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:39.860\nThat's great. And I'm going to dig more into that later. But let's rewind for a\n\n176\n00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:40.400\nmoment.\n\n177\n00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:48.080\nYou know, you grew up in South Africa and tell us something from your childhood\n\n178\n00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:48.960\nthat shaped the\n\n179\n00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.120\nkind of leader you are today. You talked about your mother and how she taught\n\n180\n00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.560\nyou the positivity\n\n181\n00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:59.800\nthat you have. Is there a story that kind of got your leadership mindset in a\n\n182\n00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:01.600\ncertain direction?\n\n183\n00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:06.810\nI think the two aspects to it, both mom and dad, dad was a corporate executive\n\n184\n00:09:06.810 --> 00:09:07.600\nand ended up\n\n185\n00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.320\nrunning one of the biggest life insurance companies in South Africa. My mother\n\n186\n00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:11.840\nwas a nurse\n\n187\n00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:19.680\nand stayed as a nurse until retirement age of 65. And I think David, there were\n\n188\n00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:20.320\ntwo aspects\n\n189\n00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.610\nthat were brought to bear in the home environment. One was that hard work was\n\n190\n00:09:24.610 --> 00:09:26.640\nexpected. So I had\n\n191\n00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:32.880\ntwo hardworking parents. But I was a little guy and I got bullied at school.\n\n192\n00:09:32.880 --> 00:09:33.920\nAnd I think the\n\n193\n00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:38.050\ncontext within which how both mom and dad shaped my response to being bullied\n\n194\n00:09:38.050 --> 00:09:38.960\nwas important,\n\n195\n00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:44.480\nthat they didn't interfere, they didn't run to the headmaster and ask for\n\n196\n00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:45.360\ninterventions.\n\n197\n00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:51.200\nThey taught me to stand up for myself. And I think the combination of courage\n\n198\n00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:51.600\nthrough\n\n199\n00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:56.130\nhaving to persevere through tough times, but also backing that up with a hard\n\n200\n00:09:56.130 --> 00:09:57.120\nworking ethic\n\n201\n00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.600\nshaped the way that I then took on leadership positions later on in my life.\n\n202\n00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:07.370\nNow, as I understand it, you entered the working world just as South Africa was\n\n203\n00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:09.120\nending apartheid.\n\n204\n00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:14.940\nWhat did living through that level of national change teach you about\n\n205\n00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:16.880\nleadership early on in\n\n206\n00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:21.010\nyour career? There would be one, it looks what happened to this country in 1994\n\n207\n00:10:21.010 --> 00:10:22.240\n. I think it played\n\n208\n00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:27.450\nout in real time to see the most magnanimous gesture of one of the world's\n\n209\n00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:28.640\ngreatest leaders,\n\n210\n00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:34.850\nplay out right in your home country. The unselfishness with which Nelson\n\n211\n00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:35.760\nMandela led\n\n212\n00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:40.290\nthe change in this country will be written in annals of history forever. And to\n\n213\n00:10:40.290 --> 00:10:41.280\nwatch that take\n\n214\n00:10:41.280 --> 00:10:45.810\nshape in such an unselfish moment, and also then see the impact that it had in\n\n215\n00:10:45.810 --> 00:10:46.800\na positive way on\n\n216\n00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:52.620\nso many people, just exemplified the acceleration that great leadership can and\n\n217\n00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:53.520\nactually present\n\n218\n00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:58.050\nin difficult or seemingly impossible sets of circumstances. I think in that\n\n219\n00:10:58.050 --> 00:10:59.120\nsense, it's only\n\n220\n00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:03.340\nin all that you look at what people, Black Nelson Mandela, have achieved, but\n\n221\n00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:04.560\nit gives you the courage\n\n222\n00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:08.130\nto in actual fact see a country that has moved itself from what the world\n\n223\n00:11:08.130 --> 00:11:09.760\nthought was the brink\n\n224\n00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:14.970\nof anarchy into a flourishing rainbow nation. Again, there's positivity and\n\n225\n00:11:14.970 --> 00:11:15.440\nreinforcement that\n\n226\n00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.350\ngoes with it, but it does give you an acute sense of what can be achieved when\n\n227\n00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:20.480\npeople and nations\n\n228\n00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.720\nand teams put their minds to things. And how has that shaped just how you\n\n229\n00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:29.390\ndevelop leaders within your own company? I think the context within which you\n\n230\n00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:29.920\nlook at\n\n231\n00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:34.220\nindividuals is important, not everyone's made the same, and a dynamic team\n\n232\n00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:36.720\nrequires a multitude of\n\n233\n00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:42.160\ndifferent approaches to problems. It's easy to say diversity of individuals\n\n234\n00:11:42.160 --> 00:11:43.520\naround a team makes for\n\n235\n00:11:43.520 --> 00:11:49.040\na really dynamic environment, but it's actually a diversity in assumptions and\n\n236\n00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:50.160\nworking experiences\n\n237\n00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:55.370\nthat also gives you that ability to be able to bring power together by\n\n238\n00:11:55.370 --> 00:11:57.200\ncelebrating differences.\n\n239\n00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:01.140\nSo the rainbow nation of South Africa celebrates its differences multi-cult\n\n240\n00:12:01.140 --> 00:12:01.520\nurally,\n\n241\n00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:06.730\nand I think having a diverse team in a South African context goes without\n\n242\n00:12:06.730 --> 00:12:07.280\nsaying that it's\n\n243\n00:12:07.280 --> 00:12:10.610\nexpected versus leaders to be able to integrate, and I think the huge\n\n244\n00:12:10.610 --> 00:12:12.240\ncommercial advantage has come\n\n245\n00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:17.750\nfrom being able to integrate diverse views and opinions before decisions get\n\n246\n00:12:17.750 --> 00:12:18.640\ntaken. Makes a\n\n247\n00:12:18.640 --> 00:12:24.000\nlot of sense, and you know backgrounds are very important, and you started your\n\n248\n00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.640\ncareers in the\n\n249\n00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:29.080\naccountant, and you still describe yourself that way. What did being an\n\n250\n00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:30.400\naccountant train you\n\n251\n00:12:30.400 --> 00:12:36.720\nin terms of how you see yourself as a leader? I think everyone's going to have\n\n252\n00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.400\na sort of a go-to\n\n253\n00:12:38.400 --> 00:12:42.800\nor a safe place for which to make decisions, and I think comfort in numbers is\n\n254\n00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:43.440\nwhat was taught\n\n255\n00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.640\nto me as an accountant, that in the context of making bold decisions, make sure\n\n256\n00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:49.040\nyou understand\n\n257\n00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:53.280\nthe numbers, in the context of solving complex problems, follow the numbers,\n\n258\n00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:54.720\nand I think in\n\n259\n00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:59.010\nbanking where the numbers are pretty complex, that was the discipline that gave\n\n260\n00:12:59.010 --> 00:12:59.840\nme the bedrock\n\n261\n00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:03.790\nagainst which I could gain the confidence of knowing of which particular\n\n262\n00:13:03.790 --> 00:13:05.280\npremise big decisions needed\n\n263\n00:13:05.280 --> 00:13:10.800\nto be taken, made and adjudicated, and it also taught me process. So it's those\n\n264\n00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:11.600\ntwo skills that\n\n265\n00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.810\nI think gave me the opportunity to have a defining character or trade that I\n\n266\n00:13:16.810 --> 00:13:17.840\ncould bank on in really\n\n267\n00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:22.370\ndifficult times. Give me an example where you follow the numbers and it took\n\n268\n00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:23.920\nyou down the right path.\n\n269\n00:13:23.920 --> 00:13:30.480\nThe context really was the e-commerce evolution that was taking place early\n\n270\n00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.320\n2000s, the Santa\n\n271\n00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.360\nBank group at that particular juncture was a bricks and mortar bank, and the\n\n272\n00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.040\nability to be able to\n\n273\n00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.700\ndiverge away from basically just the bricks and mortar delivery mechanism in\n\n274\n00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:44.960\nthe retail bank\n\n275\n00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:50.320\ngave us the opportunity to think about an internet-only bank, and the instinct\n\n276\n00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:51.120\nwas that it was\n\n277\n00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:55.790\ntime to follow it. The numbers suggested that there was high risk but there was\n\n278\n00:13:55.790 --> 00:13:57.040\na large chance\n\n279\n00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:01.180\nof success, and it's actually not a good news story, David, because we got\n\n280\n00:14:01.180 --> 00:14:02.240\neverything right,\n\n281\n00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:07.450\nexcept remembering to ask the customers if it was the right time for them. We\n\n282\n00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:08.240\ngot the technology\n\n283\n00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:12.160\nright, we got the business plan right, we set the numbers up in a way that\n\n284\n00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.320\nlooked like it was\n\n285\n00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.480\ndestined for success, and it turns out that we were about three years too early\n\n286\n00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:18.880\nand it turned\n\n287\n00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:24.520\nout to be the wrong decision at the particular time. So it is one with numbers\n\n288\n00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:25.840\nare also fallible,\n\n289\n00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:29.870\nand therein lies one of the crucial lessons that understanding that numbers\n\n290\n00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:30.480\ngive you the\n\n291\n00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.880\nscenario in which you're making your decision. Also make sure that you can\n\n292\n00:14:33.880 --> 00:14:34.960\ncalibrate the risk,\n\n293\n00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.640\nand whilst it was a strength of man at the time, it also taught me a really\n\n294\n00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:39.440\ngood lesson because\n\n295\n00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.590\nthere was an unintended risk which I hadn't contemplated. You've got some of\n\n296\n00:14:43.590 --> 00:14:44.160\nthe best\n\n297\n00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:48.170\npeople skills that anybody I've ever met. I mean, you walk into a room, you\n\n298\n00:14:48.170 --> 00:14:49.120\nknow how to make people\n\n299\n00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:55.040\nfeel comfortable, you have tremendous presence, and those kind of skills don't\n\n300\n00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.240\ntypically come along\n\n301\n00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.340\nwith what you would describe as or people would describe or see as the\n\n302\n00:15:00.340 --> 00:15:02.320\nstereotypical accountant.\n\n303\n00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:09.680\nWhere did you develop these people skills? It's a hard question, David, and I\n\n304\n00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:10.640\nthink by example,\n\n305\n00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:17.760\nmy father was completely the opposite of me. He had a marketing brain, he was a\n\n306\n00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:18.640\nsalesperson,\n\n307\n00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:22.160\nstarted off selling oil for Shell and ended up selling life insurance policies\n\n308\n00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:23.440\nfor most of his\n\n309\n00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:28.560\nlife, and when I say most of his life, most of his life is a salesman. And he\n\n310\n00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:28.960\ntaught me the power\n\n311\n00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:34.720\nof networks that the engagement model and the opportunity to engage with people\n\n312\n00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:34.720\n,\n\n313\n00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.880\nyou'll always find something interesting. They always know something a lot more\n\n314\n00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:40.320\nthan you do.\n\n315\n00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:46.400\nAnd if you embrace the opportunity to engage with new people in interesting\n\n316\n00:15:46.400 --> 00:15:47.760\nways, your life becomes\n\n317\n00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:52.000\nvery, very broad and very, very quickly. And my late stepmother also said to me\n\n318\n00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:52.640\n, \"Never turn down\n\n319\n00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:57.850\ninvitation.\" You never quite know when excitement is around the corner. And if\n\n320\n00:15:57.850 --> 00:15:58.560\nthe invitation turns\n\n321\n00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:03.770\nout to be one that wasn't that great, you can always leave. So I guess those\n\n322\n00:16:03.770 --> 00:16:05.040\ntwo examples when\n\n323\n00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:10.250\nplays out, and the world is filled with very nice people. When you give career\n\n324\n00:16:10.250 --> 00:16:11.200\nadvice, I've heard\n\n325\n00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.520\nyou say, pick your boss, say more about that, and how that mindset shaped the\n\n326\n00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:19.440\narc of your own career.\n\n327\n00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:25.320\nI think it's the most important person to pick in your life as your wife, and I\n\n328\n00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.800\n've been very blessed\n\n329\n00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.600\nin a work environment. The person who has the greatest impact on you is your\n\n330\n00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:30.880\nboss.\n\n331\n00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:36.090\nAnd it's the one choice you can make when you join in organizations who you\n\n332\n00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:37.200\nchoose to work for.\n\n333\n00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.440\nAnd I've been very, very lucky. David, I worked for incredible people my whole\n\n334\n00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:43.040\ncareer. And in\n\n335\n00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:47.470\nso doing a lot of what is presented today is a result of what I've learned from\n\n336\n00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:48.480\npeople way better\n\n337\n00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.010\nthan me, who I had the chance to learn from for an extended period of time. So\n\n338\n00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:54.320\nit is one of those\n\n339\n00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:00.880\nmoments that you pick people that you aspire to. But by the same token as a man\n\n340\n00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:01.600\n, as a leader,\n\n341\n00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.650\nI've always chosen to try and pick a team that's better than me. And I think I\n\n342\n00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:06.480\nget the best of both\n\n343\n00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.280\nworlds out of that. Learn from your boss and learn from the people that you\n\n344\n00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:09.760\nchoose.\n\n345\n00:17:09.760 --> 00:17:15.360\nYou stepped into the CEO role of Life Healthcare in August of 2020 right in the\n\n346\n00:17:15.360 --> 00:17:17.040\nmiddle of COVID.\n\n347\n00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:22.860\nWhat did you learn about leading through that crisis? It was an intriguing\n\n348\n00:17:22.860 --> 00:17:23.600\nmoment because\n\n349\n00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:29.370\nit actually was a multiplicity of crises. The clinical crisis was obvious to\n\n350\n00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:30.000\nall because at\n\n351\n00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:35.200\nthat particular point, the world's best clinicians had no idea where the virus\n\n352\n00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.160\nhad come from, how\n\n353\n00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.170\nto contain it, how it was spreading. And there was widespread fear amongst all\n\n354\n00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:40.960\nof the clinicians,\n\n355\n00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.380\nso park the clinical crisis for a moment. It hampered our operations to the\n\n356\n00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:45.760\nextent that\n\n357\n00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:50.960\nelective surgical procedures couldn't take place. And that's the best part of\n\n358\n00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:51.680\nhalf of the company's\n\n359\n00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.510\nrevenue. And with a fixed cost infrastructure such as a hospital group, you\n\n360\n00:17:55.510 --> 00:17:56.080\nlose half the\n\n361\n00:17:56.080 --> 00:18:01.290\nrevenue, you stop making losses. So there was a financial crisis. You combine\n\n362\n00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:02.320\nthose two,\n\n363\n00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:06.990\nwhich require different instincts and opportunities or approaches to solve, and\n\n364\n00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:07.600\nyou actually end up\n\n365\n00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:12.270\nwith a leadership crisis. And I think there in David was the right person at\n\n366\n00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:13.440\nthe right time.\n\n367\n00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:18.830\nI say that humbly, but some of the crises that I'd had to go through in '07 and\n\n368\n00:18:18.830 --> 00:18:20.080\n'08 in the banking\n\n369\n00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:24.090\ncrisis, and some of the challenges that Deutsche Bank was faced with in the\n\n370\n00:18:24.090 --> 00:18:27.280\nlatter part of 2015\n\n371\n00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:31.290\nto 2017, so that you can manage your way through crises, but you have to be\n\n372\n00:18:31.290 --> 00:18:32.320\nvery careful how you\n\n373\n00:18:32.320 --> 00:18:36.460\napproach them. And in so doing, I was able to take the experience that I had in\n\n374\n00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:37.680\nbanking and apply it\n\n375\n00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.560\nin healthcare in the difficult moments that we faced. Hello, everyone. I hope\n\n376\n00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:43.120\nyou are loving\n\n377\n00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:47.440\nthis conversation between David and Peter. As always, stay tuned to the very\n\n378\n00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.480\nend of the episode.\n\n379\n00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.520\nDavid and I are going to debrief the conversation that he's having with Peter\n\n380\n00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:52.400\nso that you leave\n\n381\n00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.610\nwith some real tangible takeaways to apply to your leadership and to your wife.\n\n382\n00:18:57.610 --> 00:18:58.400\nSo stay tuned to the\n\n383\n00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.610\nvery end of the episode, and I will see you at the debrief. You know, you're\n\n384\n00:19:03.610 --> 00:19:04.480\nobviously not one to\n\n385\n00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:10.120\nrun away from a challenge, and not everyone is really wired to do that, Peter.\n\n386\n00:19:10.120 --> 00:19:11.200\nWas this learned\n\n387\n00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:15.630\nor anator? Is this just part of who you are? Do you like to go into the fire? I\n\n388\n00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:16.240\nmean, you do the\n\n389\n00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.780\nfire walk. I mean, is this just something that you live for? I think the\n\n390\n00:19:19.780 --> 00:19:20.800\nconfidence to be able to\n\n391\n00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:26.620\ntake on tough tasks came by being given tough tasks when I was in my formative\n\n392\n00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:28.160\nyears and being\n\n393\n00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:33.370\nwell looked after by my bosses during those tough times that you then get a\n\n394\n00:19:33.370 --> 00:19:34.640\nreal sense that\n\n395\n00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.850\nyou can do things. I was never hung out to dry, but I was given some pretty\n\n396\n00:19:39.850 --> 00:19:40.080\ntough\n\n397\n00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:44.300\nchallenges during the course of the early stages of my career. I think that\n\n398\n00:19:44.300 --> 00:19:45.040\ngives you some of the\n\n399\n00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:48.960\nconfidence. And it also gives you a recipe book that you can apply in difficult\n\n400\n00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.320\ncircumstances. And\n\n401\n00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:55.120\nthat book hasn't changed. You pick really good teams. And I think that gave me\n\n402\n00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:55.840\nthe confidence to\n\n403\n00:19:55.840 --> 00:19:59.530\nkeep trying. So you pick a really good team. Is there anything else in that\n\n404\n00:19:59.530 --> 00:20:00.480\nrecipe book of yours?\n\n405\n00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.060\nYou get that team. You're in a crisis situation. What have you learned about\n\n406\n00:20:04.060 --> 00:20:05.120\nhow to work through it?\n\n407\n00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:08.850\nYou can't ask anyone to do anything that you wouldn't do yourself. So that\n\n408\n00:20:08.850 --> 00:20:09.920\nleadership, by\n\n409\n00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.970\nexample, model is an important one. I think that you've also got to show a\n\n410\n00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:15.520\ntremendous capacity for\n\n411\n00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:20.720\nhard work under tough circumstances, which comes with sacrifice. And you're the\n\n412\n00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:21.040\ncaptain of the ship.\n\n413\n00:20:21.040 --> 00:20:24.950\nYou're the last person to leave the ship, which means that you just don't give\n\n414\n00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:26.640\nup. And I think\n\n415\n00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:31.850\ntherein, one also has to be realistic that some of us or many of us are in a\n\n416\n00:20:31.850 --> 00:20:32.960\nposition to put in\n\n417\n00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.270\nthe hours. And I've had a very supportive family network that's allowed me to\n\n418\n00:20:36.270 --> 00:20:36.640\ndo it,\n\n419\n00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.720\nbut you can't be unreasonable in your expectations. So balancing the two\n\n420\n00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.240\nbetween contribution and\n\n421\n00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.700\nthe leadership model that you feel proud of is also going to be done with a\n\n422\n00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:47.600\nlevel of respect and\n\n423\n00:20:47.600 --> 00:20:52.460\nhumility for the capacity that's around you. So you come in as a CEO in this\n\n424\n00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:53.680\nnew industry.\n\n425\n00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:59.680\nWhat process did you use to really establish a clear vision for the company?\n\n426\n00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.960\nAnd how did you go\n\n427\n00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:07.550\nabout communicating it, especially when you had fear and uncertainty everywhere\n\n428\n00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:08.560\n? And\n\n429\n00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:13.090\nyou're a new guy that doesn't have any health care experience. I mean, that had\n\n430\n00:21:13.090 --> 00:21:13.840\nto be kind of a\n\n431\n00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:20.480\ntough, tough mindset for the people to go through as well. It was. And not\n\n432\n00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.000\neveryone responded\n\n433\n00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.200\nparticularly well to a bank and a health care environment immediately,\n\n434\n00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.640\nparticularly from a\n\n435\n00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.000\nclinical perspective. And therein, I made sure that the chief medical officer\n\n436\n00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:32.720\nhad the rule of the\n\n437\n00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.760\nroost, put the trust in them and the clinical committee of the board, which\n\n438\n00:21:36.760 --> 00:21:37.600\nmeant that the\n\n439\n00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:43.420\nreal aspects of my weaknesses, I was shielded by having really competent people\n\n440\n00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:44.080\ntaking the lead\n\n441\n00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:49.840\nand me backing them. The financial component, the financial part of the crisis,\n\n442\n00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:50.720\nI had a new mall\n\n443\n00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.900\nhaving been through those processes many times before in the banking\n\n444\n00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.760\nenvironment.\n\n445\n00:21:55.760 --> 00:22:00.960\nAnd that actually played to its strengths and it put me in a position where I\n\n446\n00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.600\ncould demonstrate\n\n447\n00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.920\ncapability in a strange environment, but playing to my strengths, delegated the\n\n448\n00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:07.040\nresponsibility\n\n449\n00:22:07.040 --> 00:22:12.320\nin a responsible way to the clinicians. And inside doing was allowing myself to\n\n450\n00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:13.200\nbe able to\n\n451\n00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.360\nassimilate what the next steps were likely to be for the company. So\n\n452\n00:22:16.360 --> 00:22:18.320\ninterestingly enough,\n\n453\n00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:24.160\nDavid, the crisis brought me a period of time where day to day managing the\n\n454\n00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:25.920\ncrises on hand\n\n455\n00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.740\nallowed me to learn the industry before I had to give an answer as to where we\n\n456\n00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:30.080\nthought we were\n\n457\n00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.960\ngoing to position the company a little bit later on. So I was relatively lucky\n\n458\n00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:34.560\nin the difficult\n\n459\n00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:39.090\nset of circumstances that I had a bit of time to be able to think. Did you\n\n460\n00:22:39.090 --> 00:22:40.240\nbring your team together\n\n461\n00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.250\nto develop that vision or did you go into your office and come out with it one\n\n462\n00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:45.040\nday and say this\n\n463\n00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:48.480\nis where we're going and then get the feedback? Where did you start?\n\n464\n00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.000\nThe question I posed to them is let's write the newspaper article as to what\n\n465\n00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.800\nthis company would\n\n466\n00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:56.850\nlook like in 2025. And each of you are the journalist, you're the journalist\n\n467\n00:22:56.850 --> 00:22:57.920\nfor your division,\n\n468\n00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.130\nyou've got to write it down in two pages. So effectively it turned, it took a\n\n469\n00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:03.920\n300 page strategic\n\n470\n00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:09.390\nplan that was quite complex to digest and it turned it into 20 pages of what\n\n471\n00:23:09.390 --> 00:23:10.640\nthe leaders\n\n472\n00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.460\naspired to be able to deliver over the next five years. And off the back of\n\n473\n00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:15.440\nthat, David,\n\n474\n00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.280\nI was able to pick the eyes out of each of what the ambition statements were\n\n475\n00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:19.600\nand then\n\n476\n00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:23.120\nask them how they were going to get it done. So we reverse engineered the\n\n477\n00:23:23.120 --> 00:23:23.760\nstrategy of the\n\n478\n00:23:23.760 --> 00:23:29.580\ncompany from what would like to be hypothetical, multidisciplinary, lots of\n\n479\n00:23:29.580 --> 00:23:30.640\noptions and lots of\n\n480\n00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:35.090\nchoices. Basically to an ambition statement where a company and crisis was\n\n481\n00:23:35.090 --> 00:23:35.760\nasked what\n\n482\n00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:39.230\nyou wanted to look like in five years' time. And that brought the team together\n\n483\n00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:40.000\nbecause it was\n\n484\n00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:45.210\nan element of doing things very differently. And some of them looked at me\n\n485\n00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:46.080\nquizzically\n\n486\n00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:48.910\nand said, \"This is not how we've done this strategic plan in the company before\n\n487\n00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:50.000\n.\" I said,\n\n488\n00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.440\n\"Well, the world for healthcare has changed so significantly. We have to do\n\n489\n00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:53.680\nthings\n\n490\n00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:58.210\nsignificantly differently.\" And it's intriguing to watch how many things we got\n\n491\n00:23:58.210 --> 00:23:58.640\nwrong in those\n\n492\n00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:02.140\nforecasts over those five years. And specifically, some of the stuff we got\n\n493\n00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:02.640\nright.\n\n494\n00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:08.090\nDid you come up with a magic set of words that really provided the noble cause\n\n495\n00:24:08.090 --> 00:24:09.280\nfor the organization?\n\n496\n00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:14.480\nWe did indeed. And the noble cause for life healthcare is making life better.\n\n497\n00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:20.300\nAnd it resonates across so many different dimensions because life could be life\n\n498\n00:24:20.300 --> 00:24:20.720\nhealthcare,\n\n499\n00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.880\nmake the company better. Life could be the life of the individuals that work in\n\n500\n00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:25.360\nthe company,\n\n501\n00:24:25.360 --> 00:24:29.250\nmake their lives better. But if we don't think about it, our responsibilities\n\n502\n00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:30.000\nto patients.\n\n503\n00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.080\nAnd when they come to hospital, they want to be better by the time they leave,\n\n504\n00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:38.800\nmaking life better actually works across so many different dimensions. And it\n\n505\n00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:39.280\njust happens\n\n506\n00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:43.100\nspontaneously. We didn't have to spend months researching it or getting\n\n507\n00:24:43.100 --> 00:24:44.080\nagencies to help us.\n\n508\n00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:49.290\nIt popped out of the executive and it stuck. Great. And how do you as a leader\n\n509\n00:24:49.290 --> 00:24:50.000\ngo about\n\n510\n00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.920\ncontinually communicating and reinforcing that vision?\n\n511\n00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.650\nAnd they're in last one of the challenges because the inconsistency in\n\n512\n00:24:57.650 --> 00:24:58.320\nhealthcare\n\n513\n00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:03.530\nis it ebbs and flows in a fairly significant way, that they're good times and\n\n514\n00:25:03.530 --> 00:25:03.920\nthey're tough\n\n515\n00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:09.130\ntimes. And we just have to constantly bang the same drum or beat the same drum\n\n516\n00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:10.160\nin the same way.\n\n517\n00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.370\nSo the messages are always in tune with the way that we see the outcomes of the\n\n518\n00:25:15.370 --> 00:25:15.840\ncompany.\n\n519\n00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:18.790\nAnd it's easy to go back to the bedrock. So in tough times, we're going to make\n\n520\n00:25:18.790 --> 00:25:19.440\nlife better.\n\n521\n00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.650\nTeams to be, at this particular point, a more electronically distributed\n\n522\n00:25:24.650 --> 00:25:25.280\nmessage through the\n\n523\n00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.320\nvarious different locations because it's impossible to get to all of them\n\n524\n00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:29.040\nphysically\n\n525\n00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:33.570\nall at the same time. And we've set up a natural communication routine that\n\n526\n00:25:33.570 --> 00:25:34.160\nruns through the\n\n527\n00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:39.320\nhospitals on a very predictable monthly basis that reinforces the message with\n\n528\n00:25:39.320 --> 00:25:39.920\ngood news stories,\n\n529\n00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.380\nDavid. And I think that's what there are lots of good news stories that come\n\n530\n00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:44.080\nout of healthcare,\n\n531\n00:25:44.080 --> 00:25:47.840\npatient experiences. And we try and exemplify it with examples.\n\n532\n00:25:47.840 --> 00:25:53.040\nWhen you give the big speech to the organization, are you a storyteller? Do you\n\n533\n00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:53.760\nuse a lot of stories\n\n534\n00:25:53.760 --> 00:25:57.580\nin your speeches or how do you go about that? I'm not a great storyteller,\n\n535\n00:25:57.580 --> 00:25:58.800\nDavid. So it doesn't\n\n536\n00:25:58.800 --> 00:26:04.350\ntend to be story driven. The animation comes more from experiences and\n\n537\n00:26:04.350 --> 00:26:05.840\nparallels that one can draw\n\n538\n00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:10.190\nbetween the healthcare industry and other aspects that I've seen in different\n\n539\n00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:11.360\norganizations during\n\n540\n00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:17.200\nthe course of my tenure as an executive. And sometimes that brings a refreshing\n\n541\n00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:18.240\nview on\n\n542\n00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.600\nhow problems can be solved, because typically the way the healthcare is moving\n\n543\n00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:24.240\ninto now\n\n544\n00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.160\nrequires a very different set of thought processes to what has been happening,\n\n545\n00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.830\nyeah, for certain for the last 20. And inserting some of those parallels become\n\n546\n00:26:32.830 --> 00:26:33.520\nquite interesting\n\n547\n00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:37.360\nbecause they're technically relevant, but not healthcare specific.\n\n548\n00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:41.600\nSo you have these new thought processes are going to be required for success in\n\n549\n00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:42.400\nyour industry.\n\n550\n00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:48.860\nHow do you bring your people along with you so that they adapt these processes\n\n551\n00:26:48.860 --> 00:26:49.360\nor these thought\n\n552\n00:26:49.360 --> 00:26:52.390\nprocesses that you're going to, you know, are essential if you're going to\n\n553\n00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:53.280\ncontinue to win.\n\n554\n00:26:53.280 --> 00:26:56.160\nAnd I think they're in last one of the big challenges, healthcare and South\n\n555\n00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:56.560\nAfrica\n\n556\n00:26:56.560 --> 00:27:00.570\nchange is very, very slowly. So you can have two decades of no change and then\n\n557\n00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:01.520\nyou can have\n\n558\n00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:06.190\nmassive change happen very, very quickly. And COVID is a good example of that\n\n559\n00:27:06.190 --> 00:27:07.360\nin a nutshell.\n\n560\n00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:11.650\nThe technological evolution that's taking place in healthcare does frighten\n\n561\n00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:12.080\npeople.\n\n562\n00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:16.160\nIf one speaks about it, irresponsibly, some people draw a conclusion that\n\n563\n00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:17.920\nrobots will replace nurses.\n\n564\n00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:22.250\nIt's a ridiculous notion. David robots will never replace nurses. Certainly not\n\n565\n00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:22.880\nin my tenure.\n\n566\n00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:28.710\nBut one does feel that people get threatened by change. And inserting one has\n\n567\n00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:29.840\nto do it in a way\n\n568\n00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:33.970\nthat embraces the change for the purpose for which it's intended. And the env\n\n569\n00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:34.560\niable outcomes\n\n570\n00:27:34.560 --> 00:27:38.480\nthat one wants to deliver. But you do it in a way that lets people feel that\n\n571\n00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.120\nthat's part\n\n572\n00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:43.260\nof the new beginnings for them as players inside the organization as them being\n\n573\n00:27:43.260 --> 00:27:44.080\nsubstituted.\n\n574\n00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:49.760\nYou've talked about people a number of times in your team. You've actually said\n\n575\n00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:56.420\nno staff, no business. You know, where did that belief in people come from in\n\n576\n00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:57.600\nyour career? And,\n\n577\n00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:04.560\nyou know, what do you do as a leader to drive that home to, you know, your\n\n578\n00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:05.600\nleaders across the\n\n579\n00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:10.040\norganization? If one looks at the successes that I've happened to be in part of\n\n580\n00:28:10.040 --> 00:28:10.800\n, it's always been\n\n581\n00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:16.080\nabout teamwork. It's always been a team game, shared spoils and collective\n\n582\n00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:16.960\nefforts.\n\n583\n00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:22.170\nDavid, I don't actually know any other way. And that was the way that I was\n\n584\n00:28:22.170 --> 00:28:23.200\nraised. That's the way\n\n585\n00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:30.090\nthat I've been trained. And if you really want a really good feeling, then\n\n586\n00:28:30.090 --> 00:28:31.760\nsucceed as a team,\n\n587\n00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:39.350\nbecause that success shared is just a multiplication factor that is just so\n\n588\n00:28:39.350 --> 00:28:40.240\ndesirable that you want\n\n589\n00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:46.250\nmore of it. And in that context, showcasing teamwork has been exemplified to my\n\n590\n00:28:46.250 --> 00:28:47.920\nexecutives\n\n591\n00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.400\non the basis that I will pick team players before individually brilliant people\n\n592\n00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:51.600\n.\n\n593\n00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:56.480\nAnd I've made that absolutely clear. Even great individuals have said, well, if\n\n594\n00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:57.040\nI'm not a team\n\n595\n00:28:57.040 --> 00:29:02.640\nplayer, then I don't belong in this team. And that has worked. Yes, it's quite\n\n596\n00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.520\na blunt statement,\n\n597\n00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:09.920\nbut it is what I believe. And it is what I choose to pursue passionately.\n\n598\n00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.520\nYou're a team member. You're really smart. You got all the talent, and you're\n\n599\n00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:14.400\nnot playing ball\n\n600\n00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.280\nin your company. What's your coaching process for a person like that?\n\n601\n00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:25.440\nFirst opportunity is to talk to them honestly. Try and find out what's driving\n\n602\n00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.480\nthe inconsistency\n\n603\n00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:31.610\nin their behavior. And sometimes it's issues away from the workplace that they\n\n604\n00:29:31.610 --> 00:29:32.080\n're battling with.\n\n605\n00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:36.750\nAnd I think an insight into the individual and the challenges that they faced\n\n606\n00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:37.040\nwith,\n\n607\n00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:42.160\nand demonstrating empathy for all this trust, and trust allows you to deliver\n\n608\n00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:42.640\nsome of the tough\n\n609\n00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:47.040\nmessages without it appearing as though that you're trying to get them out.\n\n610\n00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:49.360\nBecause deep inside the\n\n611\n00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:54.640\npeople that I've worked with, the good human is there. It's sometimes blocked\n\n612\n00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:55.600\nby other issues\n\n613\n00:29:55.600 --> 00:29:59.830\nthat they may be struggling with. And it may even be my management stuff. But\n\n614\n00:29:59.830 --> 00:30:00.640\nif you allow them\n\n615\n00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.330\nto articulate it, then you find ways to be able to address it, the mentorship\n\n616\n00:30:04.330 --> 00:30:04.720\nmodel,\n\n617\n00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.240\nand the ability to coach them is just that much easier. But that doesn't mean\n\n618\n00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.280\nyou can't deliver\n\n619\n00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:13.100\ntough messages as and when they're required. Without going into names,\n\n620\n00:30:13.100 --> 00:30:14.000\nobviously, what would\n\n621\n00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.310\nbe the toughest situation where you actually had to let somebody go and how'd\n\n622\n00:30:17.310 --> 00:30:18.080\nyou handle it?\n\n623\n00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:27.040\nAn individually brilliant person with no capacity to engage with the team,\n\n624\n00:30:27.040 --> 00:30:32.320\nand around which we built a promise to the marketplace, where he was pivotal to\n\n625\n00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:33.840\nthe delivery\n\n626\n00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:40.400\nthereof. And I had to let him go. With consequences, ruffled feathers through\n\n627\n00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:40.880\nthe team,\n\n628\n00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.960\nhow are we going to deal with the marketplace? And effectively, I had to make\n\n629\n00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:45.840\nthe judgment call\n\n630\n00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:50.020\nwas, are we going to try and manage around the individual? Or we were going to\n\n631\n00:30:50.020 --> 00:30:50.480\ncome up with a\n\n632\n00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.600\nbetter plan? And in that particular set of circumstances, at great cost to the\n\n633\n00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:55.600\nteam,\n\n634\n00:30:55.600 --> 00:31:02.000\nthe individual had to be asked to leave. Those are the tough calls to make. But\n\n635\n00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:02.480\nthe good news\n\n636\n00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.240\nis there's always people that are on the team and that get things done. How do\n\n637\n00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:08.800\nyou make sure people\n\n638\n00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:13.280\nfeel seen and valued? How do you go about that as a leader?\n\n639\n00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.120\nI think there are multiple aspects that keep people engaged inside an\n\n640\n00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:19.280\norganization. And it's not money.\n\n641\n00:31:19.280 --> 00:31:25.100\nI think there are other aspects that one needs to work on. And if you split it\n\n642\n00:31:25.100 --> 00:31:25.840\ninto three,\n\n643\n00:31:25.840 --> 00:31:31.910\nproviding them with the challenge that they feel stretched by brings them to\n\n644\n00:31:31.910 --> 00:31:32.160\nwork,\n\n645\n00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:38.320\nmaking sure that they feel appreciated, not in a financial sense, but in a\n\n646\n00:31:38.320 --> 00:31:39.600\nmanagement recognition\n\n647\n00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:45.430\nsense, pays huge dividends going forward. And making sure that the right\n\n648\n00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:46.960\nhygiene factors within the\n\n649\n00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:51.350\ncorporate are taking care of their ambitions with a decent runway for them and\n\n650\n00:31:51.350 --> 00:31:52.320\nunderstanding\n\n651\n00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:55.730\nwhere their career is going actually shows that they're taking very good care\n\n652\n00:31:55.730 --> 00:31:57.360\nof. That three-way\n\n653\n00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:01.200\nmodel, once it submits with great individuals, they don't leave. They have\n\n654\n00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:02.240\ndifficult times every\n\n655\n00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.400\nnow and again. So it's a deliberate view not to just think that you solve these\n\n656\n00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:07.280\nchallenges with\n\n657\n00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:11.190\nmoney that forces you to think about the issues that are really important to\n\n658\n00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:11.840\npeople.\n\n659\n00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:16.080\nHow do you personally recognize people? Do you have any way that you do it?\n\n660\n00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:21.530\nThere's no unique signature that I would say that everyone would say they've\n\n661\n00:32:21.530 --> 00:32:22.080\nbeen treated the\n\n662\n00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:25.600\nsame way. But I make sure that the recognition and appreciation is always there\n\n663\n00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:27.840\n. I engage with\n\n664\n00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:33.660\nmy direct reports continuously so that by the time it gets to formal appraisals\n\n665\n00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:34.400\nat half and\n\n666\n00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.320\nfull year end, there aren't any surprises. They tend to be relatively easy\n\n667\n00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:39.200\nconversations.\n\n668\n00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:44.410\nSo it's ongoing dialogue. David's about being present. When they have meetings\n\n669\n00:32:44.410 --> 00:32:44.800\nwith you,\n\n670\n00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:49.620\nthat you focus, that you listening, that they know that you're listening, that\n\n671\n00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:50.320\nyou can remember\n\n672\n00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:53.500\nthe questions that they ask and the answers that you've given. And to make sure\n\n673\n00:32:53.500 --> 00:32:54.480\nthat you've taken\n\n674\n00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.360\nthem seriously as individuals would be what I would like to be remembered for.\n\n675\n00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:00.320\nIt's not always\n\n676\n00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:05.530\nthat easy. Pressure times do create slight differences in behavior. But that's\n\n677\n00:33:05.530 --> 00:33:05.600\nthe\n\n678\n00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:08.760\nway that I'd like for people to feel that I'm engaged with them and I'm\n\n679\n00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:09.760\ninterested in them and\n\n680\n00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:14.000\nI care about them. You've been described by many people as a leader who truly\n\n681\n00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.040\nbacks their people.\n\n682\n00:33:15.040 --> 00:33:19.820\nI mean, you walk and talk on this dimension. Tell us about a time you put your\n\n683\n00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:21.040\nown credibility\n\n684\n00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:24.400\non the line for someone on your team. You know, where you really had to back\n\n685\n00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:25.280\nsomebody that maybe\n\n686\n00:33:25.280 --> 00:33:30.880\npeople weren't necessarily sure of. Absolutely. And it springs to mind almost\n\n687\n00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:31.440\nimmediately\n\n688\n00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.110\nthat in my current job, and we won't mention names because you asked not to.\n\n689\n00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:37.760\nBut I decided to\n\n690\n00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:44.480\ntake an individual who had a unique skill set was completely not qualified for\n\n691\n00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:45.360\nthe role that I\n\n692\n00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:51.180\nwanted to place the individual in and made the decision. And I didn't get\n\n693\n00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:52.720\nsupport from anybody.\n\n694\n00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.860\nEverybody thought I was crazy. I put my own stamp on and said, I'll if it doesn\n\n695\n00:33:57.860 --> 00:33:58.640\n't work,\n\n696\n00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.710\nI'll take the hit. And I'm delighted to say that four years later, it's turned\n\n697\n00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:03.200\nout to be\n\n698\n00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.340\nexactly the right decision for the company, the individual and the outcomes\n\n699\n00:34:07.340 --> 00:34:08.320\nthat we needed to\n\n700\n00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.820\ndeliver that David was the only time in my career where I got absolutely no\n\n701\n00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:13.200\nsupport for a decision\n\n702\n00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:18.410\nand had to stand my ground. And you know, what was it that gave you that\n\n703\n00:34:18.410 --> 00:34:19.520\nconviction to do that?\n\n704\n00:34:19.520 --> 00:34:24.190\nBecause a lot of people went out. In this particular instance, getting to some\n\n705\n00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:25.280\nof the finer detail,\n\n706\n00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.440\nit was all around people and culture. And I don't believe that you learn people\n\n707\n00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.080\nand culture in a\n\n708\n00:34:30.080 --> 00:34:32.830\nbook. And I don't believe that you get a degree in people and culture. I think\n\n709\n00:34:32.830 --> 00:34:33.600\nyou've either got\n\n710\n00:34:33.600 --> 00:34:37.890\nit in your DNA, or you haven't. And the ability to engage with people across\n\n711\n00:34:37.890 --> 00:34:39.040\nmultiple cultures\n\n712\n00:34:39.040 --> 00:34:44.250\nin very different circumstances and form a cohesive use to where the\n\n713\n00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:46.080\norganization needs to be patched\n\n714\n00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:51.540\nup or needs to be matured, I think takes tremendous people inside. And my\n\n715\n00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:53.360\ninstincts were the individual\n\n716\n00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.560\nhad it. And that's all it took. Then you follow that gut. You know, you're a\n\n717\n00:34:58.560 --> 00:34:59.600\nleader who clearly\n\n718\n00:34:59.600 --> 00:35:04.720\nleads by by example. I mean, you don't you mentioned, you don't ask people to\n\n719\n00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:05.520\ndo anything that you\n\n720\n00:35:05.520 --> 00:35:11.080\nwouldn't do. And I think that's a very powerful point, obviously. So when you\n\n721\n00:35:11.080 --> 00:35:12.800\nthink about that,\n\n722\n00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:16.930\nand you think about behaviors you want to drive in your organization, what's\n\n723\n00:35:16.930 --> 00:35:18.560\nbeen the hardest\n\n724\n00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:24.050\nbehavior to get others to adopt in your culture that you know is really\n\n725\n00:35:24.050 --> 00:35:24.960\nimportant?\n\n726\n00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:31.280\nI think in the context across the across the decades, the consistency\n\n727\n00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:37.840\nof being transparent with your colleagues has been the most difficult to\n\n728\n00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.440\nachieve. And I think that\n\n729\n00:35:40.080 --> 00:35:44.610\nthat resistance comes for a variety of reasons. You need confidence to be\n\n730\n00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:45.360\ntransparent to the\n\n731\n00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.670\ncolleague, because it's quite difficult to tell someone you don't like what\n\n732\n00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:49.440\nthey're doing.\n\n733\n00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:54.650\nDifferent hierarchical structures, even in a flat organizational structure,\n\n734\n00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:55.440\ntend to create\n\n735\n00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:00.650\npower gaps where people are either scared or lack the confidence to be able to\n\n736\n00:36:00.650 --> 00:36:01.520\naddress the issue.\n\n737\n00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:06.730\nAnd sometimes people are just too nice that they feel that by confronting an\n\n738\n00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:07.360\nindividual around\n\n739\n00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.570\nbehavior that they will be seem to be offensive. It's completely understandable\n\n740\n00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:13.440\n. So creating\n\n741\n00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.740\nthat environment where the consistency of engagement across executives is\n\n742\n00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:19.920\ntransparent, honest and\n\n743\n00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:25.130\nproductive is a constant nurturing because that requires effort and work all\n\n744\n00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:25.840\nthe time.\n\n745\n00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.510\nYou're obviously a hell of a nice guy. I mean, you're just a good guy. People\n\n746\n00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:31.440\nlove being around\n\n747\n00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:37.840\nyou. You're so empathetic. But I'm sure like most nice guys, you want to be\n\n748\n00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:38.320\nliked.\n\n749\n00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:43.840\nI mean, it's kind of in our DNA. You have a desire to be like, how do you\n\n750\n00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.760\nmanage that desire\n\n751\n00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:51.920\nto be liked if you think you have it? And still be able to make a tough call?\n\n752\n00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:59.040\nI think David, that's probably part of me that is morphed over the years.\n\n753\n00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:05.440\nI think in the formative years as a younger leader, you want to be liked. But I\n\n754\n00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:06.560\nhad a great mentor.\n\n755\n00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:12.080\nAnd his wise words to me were leadership is not a popular position. And you're\n\n756\n00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:12.640\nnot there to be\n\n757\n00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:17.780\ntheir friends. You're there to be their leader. And there will be moments where\n\n758\n00:37:17.780 --> 00:37:18.560\nwhat you decide\n\n759\n00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:25.440\nis not going to be a popular outcome. And you grove. Shall we say a slight\n\n760\n00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:26.960\nimmunity would be the\n\n761\n00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.050\nwrong word that you groan, increasing sense of responsibility that doing what\n\n762\n00:37:31.050 --> 00:37:32.240\nis right for\n\n763\n00:37:32.240 --> 00:37:37.440\nthe individuals and for the company may come at a personal price. And that's\n\n764\n00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:37.840\nthe price that\n\n765\n00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:42.130\nleaders have to pay that a constant seek, if you constantly seek popularity or\n\n766\n00:37:42.130 --> 00:37:43.040\nbox yourself into\n\n767\n00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:46.940\na corner where you'll make the wrong decisions, back the wrong person, or do\n\n768\n00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:47.680\nwhat's not in the\n\n769\n00:37:47.680 --> 00:37:52.210\nbest interest of the company. So I've had to numb myself to the fact that there\n\n770\n00:37:52.210 --> 00:37:52.960\nwill be moments of\n\n771\n00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:58.330\ntime where I'm not popular. And that just is a price I have to pay, as opposed\n\n772\n00:37:58.330 --> 00:37:59.920\nto the alternative,\n\n773\n00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:05.130\nwhich is not in my DNA to walk down that path. You know, you've obviously\n\n774\n00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:06.400\noverseen technology\n\n775\n00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:13.360\nand operations on a global scale. What's one mistake you see leaders make when\n\n776\n00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:14.560\nthey're trying to,\n\n777\n00:38:14.560 --> 00:38:20.400\nlet's call it, say, digitally transform an organization. David, I smile because\n\n778\n00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:20.800\nI'm\n\n779\n00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:27.550\ntrapped immediately in that problem again, as we speak, standard bank days, we\n\n780\n00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:28.560\nwrote the technology\n\n781\n00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:33.770\ncurve. We were at the cutting edge of technology, largest installation, IBM's\n\n782\n00:38:33.770 --> 00:38:34.960\nlargest installation\n\n783\n00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.630\nin the Southern Hemisphere. We were the beta site for a number of cutting edge\n\n784\n00:38:38.630 --> 00:38:39.680\nmoments,\n\n785\n00:38:39.680 --> 00:38:45.870\nand proudly took it as the way forward in banking. It comes at a price. You\n\n786\n00:38:45.870 --> 00:38:46.800\nneed a big balance\n\n787\n00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.900\nsheet. You've got to accept that you're going to make mistakes. And the lesson\n\n788\n00:38:50.900 --> 00:38:51.840\nthat I learned\n\n789\n00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.510\nthere was that technology started to move at such a fast pace that being on the\n\n790\n00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:56.240\ncutting edge,\n\n791\n00:38:56.240 --> 00:39:01.680\nyou could be trapped in an environment that became dated quite quickly. Fast\n\n792\n00:39:01.680 --> 00:39:03.200\nforward 15\n\n793\n00:39:03.200 --> 00:39:08.410\nyears later into healthcare. And what we're seeing now is that the technology\n\n794\n00:39:08.410 --> 00:39:08.640\nedge,\n\n795\n00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:12.800\nand we as a corporation are currently behind the technology frontier, is moving\n\n796\n00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:13.360\nthat quickly,\n\n797\n00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:18.960\nthat the deliberate bet we are taking, is to solve the implementations that the\n\n798\n00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:19.360\nmarket is\n\n799\n00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.220\nsuggesting are obvious on the basis that we think the technology is going to\n\n800\n00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:24.240\nmove that much quicker,\n\n801\n00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:28.400\nthat it'll be cheaper in a year's time and probably much easier to implement.\n\n802\n00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:29.760\nAnd you only have to\n\n803\n00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:33.900\nhave a look what's happened in AI in the last six months to realize that this\n\n804\n00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:34.800\ncurve is moving\n\n805\n00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.470\nreally, very quickly. So I'm an outlier in the decision by resisting the change\n\n806\n00:39:39.470 --> 00:39:40.880\nand the momentum,\n\n807\n00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:44.400\nknowing that they come to stage, we're going to have to be a very, very fast\n\n808\n00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:45.200\nfollower.\n\n809\n00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:50.410\nAnd hopefully that strategy succeeds. Yeah, so you're consciously not trying to\n\n810\n00:39:50.410 --> 00:39:50.560\nlead,\n\n811\n00:39:50.560 --> 00:39:54.640\nyou're going to be that fast follower. That takes some courage because people\n\n812\n00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:55.040\ncan say,\n\n813\n00:39:55.040 --> 00:39:57.840\nman, we're getting left behind. I mean, they got to be pounding your office\n\n814\n00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.480\ndoor like,\n\n815\n00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.800\nthey're doing this, they're doing this. Why aren't we going? And that's\n\n816\n00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:04.000\nhappened both internally\n\n817\n00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:09.820\nfrom the board and from the market's perspective. But the approach to solving\n\n818\n00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:10.320\nthat particular\n\n819\n00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.520\npressure problem is to have a very clear view as to where you end where you're\n\n820\n00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:15.520\ngoing.\n\n821\n00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:19.530\nAnd also have a very clear plan as to how are you going to get there? The only\n\n822\n00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:19.840\nthing that's\n\n823\n00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:23.890\ngoing to change is the timeline. And the optionality to be able to accelerate\n\n824\n00:40:23.890 --> 00:40:25.040\nthe timeline\n\n825\n00:40:25.040 --> 00:40:29.220\nis far easier than having to say, oh, we made a mistake to reverse and start\n\n826\n00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:29.840\nagain.\n\n827\n00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:34.240\nAnd I think therein is the conservative nature of actually holding back just\n\n828\n00:40:34.240 --> 00:40:35.360\nfor the time being.\n\n829\n00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:39.760\nHow are you preparing your team for the role that AI is playing across health\n\n830\n00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:41.040\ncare right now and\n\n831\n00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:44.960\nnot just operationally, but culturally? I mean, how are you? How do you\n\n832\n00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:46.000\npersonally think about\n\n833\n00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:51.440\ndriving the need for AI in your organization? I think that comes at a junction\n\n834\n00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:52.080\norganization\n\n835\n00:40:52.080 --> 00:40:57.670\nwhere you split in a health care world, AI and what it will deliver clinically,\n\n836\n00:40:57.670 --> 00:40:59.120\nsupplement to\n\n837\n00:40:59.120 --> 00:41:02.480\nor complement doctors, judgment or specialist judgment in clinical\n\n838\n00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.480\ncircumstances. And how\n\n839\n00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:09.680\nwe view AI from the process and procedural perspective back in the operations\n\n840\n00:41:09.680 --> 00:41:10.240\nof the company.\n\n841\n00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:14.640\nClearly, the latter, the much easier one to contemplate because robotic process\n\n842\n00:41:14.640 --> 00:41:20.550\nautomation and the use of AI in process-driven improvement is largely non-\n\n843\n00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:21.440\nthreatening,\n\n844\n00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.560\nit's largely understood and it's easy to create from a business case\n\n845\n00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:25.360\nperspective.\n\n846\n00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:32.160\nThe junction between patient care and specialist judgment in particular issues\n\n847\n00:41:32.160 --> 00:41:32.800\nthen takes on a\n\n848\n00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:38.160\nmultiplicity of permutations. Radiology is probably the best example that I can\n\n849\n00:41:38.160 --> 00:41:38.480\ngive,\n\n850\n00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.150\nDavid, that AI in the radiology world, if you go back a year, everyone said\n\n851\n00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:43.840\nwould drive a\n\n852\n00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.990\nradiologist out of business because the computer was going to do everything\n\n853\n00:41:47.990 --> 00:41:48.880\nthat they could do.\n\n854\n00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.080\nInterestingly enough, more recent statistics have shown that the use of AI has\n\n855\n00:41:54.080 --> 00:41:54.400\ndriven an\n\n856\n00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.620\nincrease in the demand for radiology expertise because the volumes have\n\n857\n00:41:57.620 --> 00:41:58.160\nincreased.\n\n858\n00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.320\nThe basic cases are being handled by the computer and more complex cases and\n\n859\n00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:02.880\nare finding their way\n\n860\n00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.280\nto the radiologist at an increasing level of frequency. So exactly the opposite\n\n861\n00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:07.520\nto the\n\n862\n00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:11.040\nprediction has actually taken place. The way that we bring it to be in the\n\n863\n00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.160\norganization\n\n864\n00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:17.980\nis make them feel comfortable. This is part of progress. Understand how it can\n\n865\n00:42:17.980 --> 00:42:18.400\nbenefit the\n\n866\n00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:23.670\norganization and understand how you as an individual need to adapt in what you\n\n867\n00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:25.040\ndeliver so that you\n\n868\n00:42:25.040 --> 00:42:30.250\npart of the way that moves forward and not fighting it. How are you personally\n\n869\n00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:32.320\nthinking about AI in\n\n870\n00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.910\nterms of how it's going to make you a better leader? That's been intrigued for\n\n871\n00:42:35.910 --> 00:42:36.480\nme because\n\n872\n00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:44.640\nmy younger daughter thinks that I'm clueless in bringing this together.\n\n873\n00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:48.480\nPart of the experiences that have been brought to be is how it's made a whole\n\n874\n00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.200\nlot of day-to-day\n\n875\n00:42:49.200 --> 00:42:52.930\nwork that much more efficient. I've also become intrigued by the level of\n\n876\n00:42:52.930 --> 00:42:54.000\ncuriosity that you can\n\n877\n00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:58.530\nexpress and the questions that you can ask because you can ask what might be a\n\n878\n00:42:58.530 --> 00:42:59.760\ndumb question in public\n\n879\n00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.580\nin private and at least see what answer comes back before you embarrass\n\n880\n00:43:03.580 --> 00:43:04.640\nyourself publicly.\n\n881\n00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:08.730\nBut it's just another moment to be able to get an opinion. I think that a\n\n882\n00:43:08.730 --> 00:43:10.240\ndiverse team, a diverse\n\n883\n00:43:10.240 --> 00:43:14.370\nboard has got a multiplicity of backgrounds, assumptions, and ways of seeing\n\n884\n00:43:14.370 --> 00:43:15.520\nquestions answered.\n\n885\n00:43:15.520 --> 00:43:19.530\nAnd I think you've got to give AI an opportunity as well. So it's another\n\n886\n00:43:19.530 --> 00:43:20.720\nmember in a team from an\n\n887\n00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:24.240\nexecutive perspective where it's not unreasonable to ask the question,\n\n888\n00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:30.080\nbut you can't abdicate and you can't be driven by it because eventually there's\n\n889\n00:43:30.080 --> 00:43:30.160\na\n\n890\n00:43:30.160 --> 00:43:33.360\nreversion to a normal where everyone's got the same weapon and we're all going\n\n891\n00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.000\nto look the same\n\n892\n00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:38.530\nif we constantly think about AI the same way. So use it, but next I'm sure you\n\n893\n00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:39.840\ndon't stop thinking\n\n894\n00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:44.370\nand try and see what age is that creates. Speaking of thinking, one CEO I\n\n895\n00:43:44.370 --> 00:43:45.280\ntalked to recently was\n\n896\n00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.500\ntalking about the importance of being able to ask the right questions. It's not\n\n897\n00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:50.080\njust taking AI,\n\n898\n00:43:50.080 --> 00:43:58.080\nbut then having the ability to ask the right questions and keep pushing AI that\n\n899\n00:43:58.080 --> 00:43:58.560\nwas really\n\n900\n00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:03.090\nmaking the difference. He was trying to build that ability to ask the right\n\n901\n00:44:03.090 --> 00:44:04.080\nquestion in his\n\n902\n00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:09.290\norganization. What's your perspective on that? David, I go back to some of the\n\n903\n00:44:09.290 --> 00:44:09.840\ngreatest leaders\n\n904\n00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.860\nthat I've worked for. They always ask the right question. They just had a way\n\n905\n00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:14.800\nof being able to do\n\n906\n00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.470\nit where it prompted more thoughts before you gave answers and by the time you\n\n907\n00:44:19.470 --> 00:44:20.320\n've given the answer\n\n908\n00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:24.220\nto the first question, it had already prompted the next question and the next\n\n909\n00:44:24.220 --> 00:44:24.960\nquestion and the\n\n910\n00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:30.170\nnext question. So I see the engagement with AI as being part of an executive's\n\n911\n00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:30.640\nresponsibility.\n\n912\n00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:34.530\nIf you can't ask your own team members the right question, you'll never be able\n\n913\n00:44:34.530 --> 00:44:34.880\nto ask\n\n914\n00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.890\nAI the right question. So I think it's part of part and parcel of the growth\n\n915\n00:44:38.890 --> 00:44:40.080\nand development that\n\n916\n00:44:40.080 --> 00:44:43.760\nnow you just have to ask more questions and you've got to ask them faster. So I\n\n917\n00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:44.320\nthink it's actually\n\n918\n00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.280\nmade our jobs more difficult as leaders as opposed to easier.\n\n919\n00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:57.110\nYou say that if you don't understand yourself, you cannot be a leader. Say more\n\n920\n00:44:57.110 --> 00:44:57.520\n.\n\n921\n00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:03.520\nI think levels of self-awareness shape the person that other people receive.\n\n922\n00:45:03.520 --> 00:45:09.040\nAnd I think that understanding the person that you are is fundamentally\n\n923\n00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:09.600\nimportant\n\n924\n00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:13.600\nso that you can position yourself correctly because ultimately social\n\n925\n00:45:13.600 --> 00:45:14.720\nengagements and business\n\n926\n00:45:14.720 --> 00:45:18.330\nengagements are about how you integrate with others. If you're aware of your\n\n927\n00:45:18.330 --> 00:45:19.120\nblind spots,\n\n928\n00:45:19.120 --> 00:45:22.240\nif you're aware of your weaknesses, if you're aware of your idiosyncrasies,\n\n929\n00:45:22.240 --> 00:45:26.910\nI think gives you a far better way of being able to articulate who you are, why\n\n930\n00:45:26.910 --> 00:45:27.200\nyou are,\n\n931\n00:45:27.200 --> 00:45:33.840\nand be able to adapt to different circumstances. So I think that comes as part\n\n932\n00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.040\nof the top three\n\n933\n00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:38.860\nattributes that I would see in leaders that self-aware is fundamentally\n\n934\n00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.600\nimportant.\n\n935\n00:45:39.600 --> 00:45:44.480\nSo I got to ask the follow-up here. When you look at yourself today as a leader\n\n936\n00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:44.480\n,\n\n937\n00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:48.090\nhow do you see yourself today as a leader? And how do you want to be even\n\n938\n00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:48.880\nbetter tomorrow?\n\n939\n00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:57.760\nThere's no excuse for not being present. And the more you know, the more you've\n\n940\n00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:58.320\ngot to listen\n\n941\n00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.720\nbecause you keep learning. And I think that the pressure I put myself under is\n\n942\n00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:06.160\nto make sure that\n\n943\n00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:11.370\nI listen more, speak less, and allow other people the opportunity to express\n\n944\n00:46:11.370 --> 00:46:12.560\nthemselves because\n\n945\n00:46:12.560 --> 00:46:16.000\nthat gives me the chance to be able to assimilate the input that I'm getting\n\n946\n00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:17.440\nand hopefully then\n\n947\n00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.510\nmake the right decisions, be they commercial, be they social, or be they the\n\n948\n00:46:21.510 --> 00:46:22.400\nmentorship and\n\n949\n00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.940\ncoaching roles that leaders have to play. So listening becomes ever\n\n950\n00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:27.360\nincreasingly more important\n\n951\n00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.730\nin the way that I see things. Peter, I got to tell you this has been a lot of\n\n952\n00:46:30.730 --> 00:46:31.520\nfun and I want\n\n953\n00:46:31.520 --> 00:46:34.360\nto have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for\n\n954\n00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:34.720\nthis?\n\n955\n00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:42.480\nWhat three words best describe you? Passionate, courageous, diligent.\n\n956\n00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.480\nYour biggest pet peeve? Lazy. Who would play you in a movie?\n\n957\n00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:51.690\nGeorge Clooney. Something you'd only know about South Africa if you're from\n\n958\n00:46:51.690 --> 00:46:51.920\nthere.\n\n959\n00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:57.130\n11 different cultures within a plane flight, a short plane flight away from\n\n960\n00:46:57.130 --> 00:46:57.920\nwherever you are.\n\n961\n00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:03.120\nSo you're an avid golfer, I know that. You're a dream force them, dead or alive\n\n962\n00:47:03.120 --> 00:47:03.440\nthese people\n\n963\n00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:08.740\ncould be. Ben Crenshaw, Ben Hagen, Tiger Woods. You're all time best round of\n\n964\n00:47:08.740 --> 00:47:09.200\ngolf.\n\n965\n00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:15.020\nLevel power around Royal Johannesburg early 90s. What's something you've been\n\n966\n00:47:15.020 --> 00:47:16.000\ncurious about lately\n\n967\n00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:21.600\nthat has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm an avid photographer and the\n\n968\n00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:29.440\nsynchronicity behind aperture, shutter speed, ISO, trade-offs and exposure\n\n969\n00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:30.160\ncompensation\n\n970\n00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:33.220\nin low light has baffled me. So I've been reading about it and I still haven't\n\n971\n00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:34.560\ngot the answer right.\n\n972\n00:47:34.560 --> 00:47:41.830\nWhat's the one thing you do just for you? I take half an hour each day to think\n\n973\n00:47:41.830 --> 00:47:41.840\n.\n\n974\n00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:47.050\nBesides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? A motor\n\n975\n00:47:47.050 --> 00:47:47.680\ncar.\n\n976\n00:47:47.680 --> 00:47:56.320\nCan I ask which one? It's a Ferrari F40. All right. If I turn the radio on in\n\n977\n00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.040\nyour car,\n\n978\n00:47:57.040 --> 00:48:02.000\nin your Ferrari, what would I hear? Earth wind and fire September.\n\n979\n00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.080\nWhat's something about you few people would know? That I got bullied at school.\n\n980\n00:48:06.080 --> 00:48:10.800\nIf you could be one person for a day, who would it be? They're not a divincy.\n\n981\n00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:16.010\nWe're out of the lightning round. You did well. Here we go. Just a few more\n\n982\n00:48:16.010 --> 00:48:16.320\nquestions. We'll\n\n983\n00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:22.320\nwrap this up. Leadership, obviously, people I say, it's lonely at the top. But\n\n984\n00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:22.880\nit can be\n\n985\n00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:27.840\nisolating at times. Who do you rely on to tell you the truth? My wife.\n\n986\n00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.420\nNow your wife, Sarah, what's the best example of how she's really made you a\n\n987\n00:48:31.420 --> 00:48:32.400\nbetter leader?\n\n988\n00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:41.920\nI think we've been married for 38 years and the context, 37 years, a bit of\n\n989\n00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.480\nmake sure I get\n\n990\n00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.690\nthat right. Others have been in real trouble. We've grown together and over the\n\n991\n00:48:47.690 --> 00:48:47.760\nyears,\n\n992\n00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:53.210\nshe's always managed to keep me grounded. Sometimes I can be too optimistic,\n\n993\n00:48:53.210 --> 00:48:53.840\ntoo ambitious,\n\n994\n00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:58.240\nor perhaps a little bit impulsive. It comes from the enthusiasm which I\n\n995\n00:48:58.240 --> 00:48:58.960\napproach each day.\n\n996\n00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:03.600\nShe has a grounded way of making sure that causes me to think.\n\n997\n00:49:03.600 --> 00:49:08.800\nAnd the lifestyle change from being retired to working, it came, as I said\n\n998\n00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:09.200\nearlier in the chat\n\n999\n00:49:09.200 --> 00:49:12.720\ntoday, David, where she said to me, this is not going to work. And she called\n\n1000\n00:49:12.720 --> 00:49:12.880\nit.\n\n1001\n00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:19.980\nShe calls it with care and love. But it doesn't mean she needs to get the\n\n1002\n00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.040\nmessage across.\n\n1003\n00:49:21.040 --> 00:49:25.570\nWhat's leadership look like at home for you? Is it any different than how you\n\n1004\n00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:26.080\nlead it work?\n\n1005\n00:49:26.080 --> 00:49:30.960\nAt least, at least, at work. I'm considered the boss.\n\n1006\n00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:42.000\nI live with Sarah and my two strong-willed girls. It's a collaborative\n\n1007\n00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:42.880\nenvironment.\n\n1008\n00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:49.200\nEach one gets a chance to speak. Each one is a good listener, but each one of\n\n1009\n00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:49.760\nthem has very\n\n1010\n00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:53.600\nfirm opinions. And we ultimately end up making the decisions that are in the\n\n1011\n00:49:53.600 --> 00:49:54.320\nbest interests of\n\n1012\n00:49:54.320 --> 00:50:00.350\nthe family. And so, everyone gets a chance to express their views. But I'm\n\n1013\n00:50:00.350 --> 00:50:02.480\ndelighted with the\n\n1014\n00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:07.000\nlogic and the way that things get done. But every now and again, some of the\n\n1015\n00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.160\ntougher decisions\n\n1016\n00:50:08.160 --> 00:50:12.080\nhave to get delegated. What do you see as your unfinished business?\n\n1017\n00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:15.920\nI think in the context of where I find myself today, David, is that\n\n1018\n00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:21.130\nhealthcare in South Africa has got its challenges around accessibility and\n\n1019\n00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:21.680\naffordability.\n\n1020\n00:50:21.680 --> 00:50:26.210\nThere's a barfication in the market where private healthcare delivered in South\n\n1021\n00:50:26.210 --> 00:50:26.640\nAfrica\n\n1022\n00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:31.920\nis top-class amongst the best countries in the world. And the public healthcare\n\n1023\n00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:32.400\nsystem is\n\n1024\n00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:36.220\nfiling 50 million people. We have spare capacity sitting in the private\n\n1025\n00:50:36.220 --> 00:50:37.120\nhealthcare system.\n\n1026\n00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:42.330\nAnd I need to find a way to cross a bridge with government that allows us to\n\n1027\n00:50:42.330 --> 00:50:42.880\nutilize\n\n1028\n00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:48.920\nsome of that spare capacity for the underserved portion of the nation of South\n\n1029\n00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:49.840\nAfrica.\n\n1030\n00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:55.050\nIt's an incredibly difficult challenge, but one which is appropriately\n\n1031\n00:50:55.050 --> 00:50:56.160\npositioned in this\n\n1032\n00:50:56.160 --> 00:50:59.760\ncountry right here and now. And it might not be about just getting the solution\n\n1033\n00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:00.320\n. It's about\n\n1034\n00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:03.360\ngetting the dialogue to be handled in a constructive way.\n\n1035\n00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:07.600\nAs I think about this conversation, you kind of remind me of a teddy bear that\n\n1036\n00:51:07.600 --> 00:51:08.800\ncan be a grizzly bear.\n\n1037\n00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:13.520\nHow do you respond to that?\n\n1038\n00:51:13.520 --> 00:51:17.920\nI don't think that's unfair. People that have known and worked with me for a\n\n1039\n00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:18.560\nlong time\n\n1040\n00:51:18.560 --> 00:51:21.870\ndo understand there's a fun side, there's a cuddly side, there's an approach\n\n1041\n00:51:21.870 --> 00:51:22.400\nable side,\n\n1042\n00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:27.680\nbut there is a moment in time where tough decisions will, if they need to be\n\n1043\n00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:28.160\ntaken,\n\n1044\n00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:32.830\nthey will get taken. I'm just hopeful that in doing it that the right decision\n\n1045\n00:51:32.830 --> 00:51:33.520\ngets achieved,\n\n1046\n00:51:33.520 --> 00:51:36.880\nbut it doesn't come by damaging people. That is my worst fear.\n\n1047\n00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:42.080\nLast question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be\n\n1048\n00:51:42.080 --> 00:51:42.640\na better leader?\n\n1049\n00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:49.360\nHard work intersects with good luck. And if you present those two on a\n\n1050\n00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:50.480\nconsistent basis with a\n\n1051\n00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:54.710\ncare for humans around you, you'll find you get people to follow, people to\n\n1052\n00:51:54.710 --> 00:51:55.600\nfollow you.\n\n1053\n00:51:55.600 --> 00:51:59.950\nAnd if you could do that, there's no setting any boundaries as to where the\n\n1054\n00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:00.880\nlimits are.\n\n1055\n00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:04.000\nPeter, I knew this was going to be a fantastic conversation.\n\n1056\n00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.320\nI want to thank you for taking the time to do it. You're a hell of a good\n\n1057\n00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:09.040\nperson and\n\n1058\n00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:13.120\nobviously a great leader and congratulations on all your success.\n\n1059\n00:52:13.120 --> 00:52:16.940\nThank you so much. I've really enjoyed it and thank you for the way that you've\n\n1060\n00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:17.440\nmade me think\n\n1061\n00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.320\nand for the fun that it's been. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.\n\n1062\n00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:29.870\nDavid, I think this marks the first time I've ever heard you call a podcast\n\n1063\n00:52:29.870 --> 00:52:30.400\nguest,\n\n1064\n00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:35.610\na teddy bear and a grizzly bear. Well, that's because he reminds me so much of\n\n1065\n00:52:35.610 --> 00:52:35.680\nmyself.\n\n1066\n00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:43.660\nI was called that by Dave Dorman, who used to be on our board when I was at\n\n1067\n00:52:43.660 --> 00:52:44.400\nyoung brands.\n\n1068\n00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.600\nAnd he called me a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear. And when I was\n\n1069\n00:52:49.600 --> 00:52:50.000\ntalking to Peter,\n\n1070\n00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.640\nI thought if there's ever a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear, it's him.\n\n1071\n00:52:54.640 --> 00:53:02.320\nHe's taken over my role. But I think that basically means that, look, people\n\n1072\n00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:02.720\nmay think\n\n1073\n00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:10.080\nyou're kind of soft and you're very, you know, into treating people well and\n\n1074\n00:53:10.080 --> 00:53:11.040\nbeing as kind as\n\n1075\n00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:15.290\nyou can possibly be. But people don't perform or people take advantage or\n\n1076\n00:53:15.290 --> 00:53:16.880\npeople get out of line.\n\n1077\n00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:22.920\nYou can very quickly become tough minded and let people know that that's\n\n1078\n00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.080\nunacceptable and\n\n1079\n00:53:24.080 --> 00:53:29.600\nwe got to change things around here with your performance and how you're acting\n\n1080\n00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:29.600\n.\n\n1081\n00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:33.610\nAnd I think that's what you get from the discussion we had with Peter. He's an\n\n1082\n00:53:33.610 --> 00:53:34.160\nawesome guy,\n\n1083\n00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:41.430\nmuch more awesome than me, by the way, and probably a much better teddy bear\n\n1084\n00:53:41.430 --> 00:53:42.160\nand a much\n\n1085\n00:53:42.160 --> 00:53:47.980\nbetter grizzly bear when he has to be. Well, you can certainly tell that he is\n\n1086\n00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:48.560\nable\n\n1087\n00:53:48.560 --> 00:53:51.270\nto lean into both of those facets of his personality throughout this\n\n1088\n00:53:51.270 --> 00:53:51.920\nconversation.\n\n1089\n00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:55.760\nAnd David, I want to debrief some of the other concepts that you two talked\n\n1090\n00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:56.720\nabout so that\n\n1091\n00:53:56.720 --> 00:54:00.320\neveryone listening has something really tangible that they can take away\n\n1092\n00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.520\nfrom this conversation and apply it to their leadership and to their life.\n\n1093\n00:54:03.520 --> 00:54:07.910\nIn the episode, David, Peter talks about the cost of leadership. And he\n\n1094\n00:54:07.910 --> 00:54:08.240\nmentions,\n\n1095\n00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:12.770\nyou know, leadership isn't always a popular position. Sometimes doing what is\n\n1096\n00:54:12.770 --> 00:54:13.120\nright and\n\n1097\n00:54:13.120 --> 00:54:17.650\nbest for the company may come at a personal price or may make people dislike\n\n1098\n00:54:17.650 --> 00:54:18.160\nyou.\n\n1099\n00:54:18.160 --> 00:54:21.360\nTalk about how you navigated that throughout your career. I mean, we just said\n\n1100\n00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:21.760\nit, you know,\n\n1101\n00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:24.960\nsometimes you have to be a grizzly bear and sometimes you can be a teddy bear.\n\n1102\n00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:25.360\nHow do you\n\n1103\n00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:29.600\nnavigate that tension as the leader who has to make those unpopular calls?\n\n1104\n00:54:29.600 --> 00:54:34.400\nWell, I think when you are the leader, there is a cost of leadership, you know,\n\n1105\n00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:38.000\nand that is you have to make the decision. You have to make the tough call when\n\n1106\n00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:38.160\nit's\n\n1107\n00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:43.980\nwhen it's there. You know, it's always fun when everybody agrees and it's easy\n\n1108\n00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:44.480\nto make those\n\n1109\n00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:48.010\ndecisions, but there are times when not everyone agrees and there are times\n\n1110\n00:54:48.010 --> 00:54:48.640\nwhen people\n\n1111\n00:54:50.240 --> 00:54:55.040\nget out of line and you need to whip the team back into shape. And that's when\n\n1112\n00:54:55.040 --> 00:54:55.760\nyou got to become a\n\n1113\n00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:01.600\ngrizzly bear. And when you're a grizzly bear, it's not always popular. But you\n\n1114\n00:55:01.600 --> 00:55:02.320\ndo it because\n\n1115\n00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:06.720\nit's the right thing. You do it because you know, if you don't do it, you know,\n\n1116\n00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:07.200\nit will be the\n\n1117\n00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:10.890\nwrong thing because people will look at your standards and come up with the\n\n1118\n00:55:10.890 --> 00:55:12.000\nwrong conclusion.\n\n1119\n00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.700\nI spoke at a conference today and someone asked, what happens when you have a\n\n1120\n00:55:15.700 --> 00:55:16.560\nreally high talent\n\n1121\n00:55:16.560 --> 00:55:23.490\nperformer that doesn't play team ball? And I said, first of all, you got to\n\n1122\n00:55:23.490 --> 00:55:24.240\nhave confidence in\n\n1123\n00:55:24.240 --> 00:55:28.060\nyourself as a leader that you can recruit somebody that can be a high talent\n\n1124\n00:55:28.060 --> 00:55:29.120\nperformer that will\n\n1125\n00:55:29.120 --> 00:55:33.130\nplay team ball. Then you got to have confidence in your company, that your\n\n1126\n00:55:33.130 --> 00:55:34.400\ncompany is good enough\n\n1127\n00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.720\nthat, you know, you're going to be able to recruit that person to come in and\n\n1128\n00:55:37.720 --> 00:55:38.880\nbe high talent and then\n\n1129\n00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.090\nplay team ball. And then you got to know that if you don't exercise the\n\n1130\n00:55:44.090 --> 00:55:45.120\nprivilege of leadership,\n\n1131\n00:55:45.120 --> 00:55:51.360\nif you don't step up, okay, there is a real cost of not leading. And that means\n\n1132\n00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:52.160\nthat you're going\n\n1133\n00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:56.340\nto be setting a standard that's unacceptable to your people. You can't talk out\n\n1134\n00:55:56.340 --> 00:55:57.040\nof both sides\n\n1135\n00:55:57.040 --> 00:56:00.720\nof your mouth. You can't talk about the cultural values you have and then have\n\n1136\n00:56:00.720 --> 00:56:01.760\na bad apple that\n\n1137\n00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:06.620\ndoesn't live by it. And the excuse is, well, hey, he performs, he drives lots\n\n1138\n00:56:06.620 --> 00:56:08.000\nof revenue and profit\n\n1139\n00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.310\nand or he or she can't, I can't take them out because of that. So what I think\n\n1140\n00:56:12.310 --> 00:56:13.040\nyou have to do\n\n1141\n00:56:13.040 --> 00:56:20.000\nis you have to be a grizzly bear in a situation like that. And you got to pull\n\n1142\n00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:20.880\nthat person aside\n\n1143\n00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:24.960\nand coach first and tell him, hey, look, you are the best sales person we have.\n\n1144\n00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:25.440\nYou're getting\n\n1145\n00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:31.080\ntremendous results and you obviously know how to treat your customers well. But\n\n1146\n00:56:31.080 --> 00:56:31.680\nwhy aren't you\n\n1147\n00:56:31.680 --> 00:56:35.510\ntreating the people that you work with on the team? Well, why do they think you\n\n1148\n00:56:35.510 --> 00:56:36.320\n're such a jerk?\n\n1149\n00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.840\nAnd you know, you got to really help that person understand how he's perceived\n\n1150\n00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:40.640\non the team and then\n\n1151\n00:56:40.640 --> 00:56:43.840\nsay it's unacceptable. And if you don't change, we're going to have a bigger\n\n1152\n00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:44.720\nproblem in a couple\n\n1153\n00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:48.400\nmonths, but you really work on it. Let's see where we're at. And then if they\n\n1154\n00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:49.120\ndon't change,\n\n1155\n00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:52.530\nyou know, after you hit him with that two by four, then, you know, you\n\n1156\n00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:53.760\nultimately have to take\n\n1157\n00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:58.970\nhim out. But that's being a grizzly bear. And you know, it's easy to be a teddy\n\n1158\n00:56:58.970 --> 00:56:59.760\nbear. The teddy\n\n1159\n00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:04.960\nbear times are when everybody agrees. But you know, you got to be tough minded\n\n1160\n00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.520\nenough to make\n\n1161\n00:57:05.520 --> 00:57:08.800\nmake the right decision, the tough decision when it's called for.\n\n1162\n00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:13.040\nI hear a lot of leaders talk about how that piece of leadership, the making the\n\n1163\n00:57:13.040 --> 00:57:13.600\ntough call,\n\n1164\n00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:17.040\nis really what makes them feel isolated. So David, during your time at Young\n\n1165\n00:57:17.040 --> 00:57:17.360\nBrands,\n\n1166\n00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.560\nwhen you had to be that grizzly bear and make the tough calls, how did you find\n\n1167\n00:57:20.560 --> 00:57:20.640\n,\n\n1168\n00:57:20.640 --> 00:57:25.760\nhow did you maintain relationship with the people close to you?\n\n1169\n00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.880\nWell, the people close to be, you know, stayed close to be because they were\n\n1170\n00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:31.360\ndoing their job and\n\n1171\n00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:35.740\nthey were doing things the right way. The people who weren't close to me were\n\n1172\n00:57:35.740 --> 00:57:36.640\nthe people who\n\n1173\n00:57:37.200 --> 00:57:40.800\nweren't living our culture. And, you know, what I try to do is bring them back\n\n1174\n00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:41.280\non board\n\n1175\n00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:46.640\nand so that they could be on the team. And, you know, I really believe very\n\n1176\n00:57:46.640 --> 00:57:48.160\nmuch in coaching\n\n1177\n00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:55.680\nfirst. And so that was just the way how I tried to run the railroad.\n\n1178\n00:57:55.680 --> 00:58:01.200\nBut here's the key point. The key point is that I wouldn't want anybody else\n\n1179\n00:58:01.200 --> 00:58:02.480\nmaking that decision.\n\n1180\n00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:06.000\nI wouldn't want anybody else to have to step up and make the tough call.\n\n1181\n00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.320\nI mean, I wanted to be the leader. You know, I wanted to have the job that I\n\n1182\n00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:10.480\nhad\n\n1183\n00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:13.860\nand I viewed it as a privilege of leadership. And when you're a leader, you've\n\n1184\n00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:14.640\ngot to exercise\n\n1185\n00:58:14.640 --> 00:58:19.850\nthe privilege of leadership by making the good, the easy decisions, the\n\n1186\n00:58:19.850 --> 00:58:20.880\nsomewhat tougher decisions\n\n1187\n00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:25.120\nand then the really hard decisions and you can't shy away from them. And you\n\n1188\n00:58:25.120 --> 00:58:25.920\nobviously want to\n\n1189\n00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.850\nget your team input in before you make any decision and make sure you do the\n\n1190\n00:58:29.850 --> 00:58:30.640\nright homework\n\n1191\n00:58:30.640 --> 00:58:35.850\nbefore you make any decision. David, you alluded to this in that discussion\n\n1192\n00:58:35.850 --> 00:58:37.200\njust now, but the idea\n\n1193\n00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:40.880\nof team players over individual performers and throughout this conversation,\n\n1194\n00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:41.840\nthat really comes\n\n1195\n00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:48.600\nthrough Peter's emphasis on picking team players over individual talent. How do\n\n1196\n00:58:48.600 --> 00:58:49.680\nyou think about that?\n\n1197\n00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:53.690\nI mean, would you pass over someone who is individually talented if they weren\n\n1198\n00:58:53.690 --> 00:58:54.640\n't a team player?\n\n1199\n00:58:55.280 --> 00:59:01.280\nYes, I would not have a star performer if they weren't a team player because\n\n1200\n00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:02.000\nthat person will\n\n1201\n00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:08.080\nbring the team down ultimately. But it's the old magic of the end. And I'm sure\n\n1202\n00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:08.960\nPeter feels the same\n\n1203\n00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:14.170\nway. I want a star talent and a team player. And if you believe in yourself and\n\n1204\n00:59:14.170 --> 00:59:14.960\nyou believe in\n\n1205\n00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:19.630\nyour company, you can get both. Anytime I brought in a team player that couldn\n\n1206\n00:59:19.630 --> 00:59:20.880\n't do their job well,\n\n1207\n00:59:21.520 --> 00:59:25.920\nthey didn't stay on the team that long. So you got to get somebody that's a\n\n1208\n00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:27.120\nteam player and really\n\n1209\n00:59:27.120 --> 00:59:30.810\ndoes their job well enough to keep it. And yeah, that doesn't mean you\n\n1210\n00:59:30.810 --> 00:59:32.080\nnecessarily have to be a\n\n1211\n00:59:32.080 --> 00:59:37.290\nstar, but you got to be damn good to be on the team. My approach, Coola, was I\n\n1212\n00:59:37.290 --> 00:59:38.080\nwanted a A team\n\n1213\n00:59:38.080 --> 00:59:42.210\nmentality. I wanted people if they were on our team, I wanted them to feel like\n\n1214\n00:59:42.210 --> 00:59:43.680\nthey're on the A team.\n\n1215\n00:59:43.680 --> 00:59:47.350\nThe only way they could feel like they're on the A team is if you have high\n\n1216\n00:59:47.350 --> 00:59:48.400\ntalent that works\n\n1217\n00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:52.920\ntogether and knows how to function as a team. And that's when what does they\n\n1218\n00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:54.480\nsay that the\n\n1219\n00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.720\ntide rises for all boats. I think about what you say a lot, David, that no one\n\n1220\n00:59:58.720 --> 00:59:59.600\nwas to be part of\n\n1221\n00:59:59.600 --> 01:00:03.920\nsomething mediocre. And that goes for the noble cause of the business and\n\n1222\n01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:04.640\nresults-oriented\n\n1223\n01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:08.370\nbusinesses. But also, no one wants to be part of a mediocre team with people\n\n1224\n01:00:08.370 --> 01:00:09.520\nthat they know\n\n1225\n01:00:09.520 --> 01:00:15.040\ndon't bring all star talent to work every day. Yeah, they're strictly linked.\n\n1226\n01:00:15.040 --> 01:00:16.160\nYou can't go to\n\n1227\n01:00:16.160 --> 01:00:19.170\nwork and be a part of something great if you're on a team that doesn't play\n\n1228\n01:00:19.170 --> 01:00:20.000\nball together.\n\n1229\n01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.900\nDavid, this last concept will really speak to those emerging leaders that are\n\n1230\n01:00:23.900 --> 01:00:24.560\nlistening\n\n1231\n01:00:24.560 --> 01:00:28.400\nto this podcast. And it's an interesting piece of advice that Peter offers in\n\n1232\n01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:29.280\nthe conversation.\n\n1233\n01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:35.920\nHe says that when you're thinking about your career to pick your boss carefully\n\n1234\n01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:35.920\n,\n\n1235\n01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:39.890\nfor Peter, this is the most important choice that you can make when you join an\n\n1236\n01:00:39.890 --> 01:00:40.960\norganization.\n\n1237\n01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:46.440\nHow do you know what to look for in a boss? And can you pick your boss when you\n\n1238\n01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:47.360\n're early on in your\n\n1239\n01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:51.190\ncareer? I think when you first get out of schools, it's harder to pick your own\n\n1240\n01:00:51.190 --> 01:00:52.160\nboss, but you can\n\n1241\n01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:58.190\ncertainly pick the company. You can certainly get a good sense of the energy,\n\n1242\n01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:00.000\nthe vibe, the culture\n\n1243\n01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:05.210\nof the company in the interview process. You can get a feel as to whether you\n\n1244\n01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:06.000\nthink you would fit\n\n1245\n01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:10.130\nthere or it's a kind of place where it has to work environment where you want\n\n1246\n01:01:10.130 --> 01:01:11.280\nto be. And if\n\n1247\n01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.410\nyou're really lucky when you get out of school and you're going for your first\n\n1248\n01:01:15.410 --> 01:01:17.680\njob, you'll actually\n\n1249\n01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:20.900\nget to meet the person you're going to work for and then you can make that same\n\n1250\n01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:21.680\nassessment. And\n\n1251\n01:01:21.680 --> 01:01:27.760\nif you can go to one, two, three, four, or five different places, I think then\n\n1252\n01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:29.120\nthe picker you can\n\n1253\n01:01:29.120 --> 01:01:35.920\nbe. If you're really just struggling in a tough economic environment just to\n\n1254\n01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:36.640\nfind a job,\n\n1255\n01:01:36.640 --> 01:01:39.760\nit's hard to be real picky when you're starting out because you got to get\n\n1256\n01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:41.040\nexperience. But once\n\n1257\n01:01:41.040 --> 01:01:44.630\nyou get experience and you start working in the company and you decide that,\n\n1258\n01:01:44.630 --> 01:01:45.760\nhey, you're going to\n\n1259\n01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:50.430\nmove to another function or another part of that company, I think that's when\n\n1260\n01:01:50.430 --> 01:01:51.520\nyou really want to\n\n1261\n01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.670\nmake sure you're picking your boss and that somebody's going to really promote\n\n1262\n01:01:54.670 --> 01:01:55.600\nyou and help you and\n\n1263\n01:01:55.600 --> 01:02:00.120\ngrow you. And then if you're going to go outside, you certainly don't leave\n\n1264\n01:02:00.120 --> 01:02:01.360\nuntil you really believe\n\n1265\n01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:05.090\nthat you have a boss that's going to invest in you. There are two reasons, I\n\n1266\n01:02:05.090 --> 01:02:06.000\ntalk about this all\n\n1267\n01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:10.160\nthe time. There's two reasons why people leave their company. One is they don't\n\n1268\n01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:10.720\nget along with\n\n1269\n01:02:10.720 --> 01:02:15.240\ntheir boss and two is they don't feel appreciated for what they do. And many\n\n1270\n01:02:15.240 --> 01:02:17.040\ntimes, those things\n\n1271\n01:02:17.040 --> 01:02:20.440\nare linked because the boss doesn't show you appreciation. The boss doesn't\n\n1272\n01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:21.040\ngive you the\n\n1273\n01:02:21.040 --> 01:02:29.360\nrecognition that you really are looking for. So it's obvious that you as a\n\n1274\n01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:31.360\nleader wanting to grow,\n\n1275\n01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:37.180\nyou want to pick the boss, pick that's going to be a coach that's going to make\n\n1276\n01:02:37.180 --> 01:02:37.840\nyou feel valued\n\n1277\n01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:43.660\nand it's going to invest in you. And I think as you move into your career and\n\n1278\n01:02:43.660 --> 01:02:44.480\nyou start to get the\n\n1279\n01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:48.720\nsecond job, the third job or the fourth job, I think it's absolutely critical\n\n1280\n01:02:48.720 --> 01:02:49.600\nto do exactly what\n\n1281\n01:02:49.600 --> 01:02:54.320\nPeter's talking about. Pick your boss. Do your very best to pick your boss. And\n\n1282\n01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:54.800\nyou know what\n\n1283\n01:02:54.800 --> 01:03:00.010\nreally makes you able to pick your boss? Be damn good at what you do. Crush it\n\n1284\n01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:01.360\nwhere you're at.\n\n1285\n01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.190\nBe someone who's so good at what they do that everybody wants and then you're\n\n1286\n01:03:05.190 --> 01:03:06.160\nin demand.\n\n1287\n01:03:06.160 --> 01:03:09.550\nAnd then you can be a little picky. If you don't really do your job, well, it's\n\n1288\n01:03:09.550 --> 01:03:10.000\nhard to be in\n\n1289\n01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:14.010\nmuch demand. We talk a lot among our team, David, about why we do the work we\n\n1290\n01:03:14.010 --> 01:03:15.840\ndo. And it's to take\n\n1291\n01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.940\ndown toxic work culture and make the world a better place by developing better\n\n1292\n01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:19.840\nleaders. And it's funny\n\n1293\n01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:23.280\nwhen we talk to people who listen to the podcast or who get our daily emails.\n\n1294\n01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:24.960\nWhen we talk about\n\n1295\n01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:29.290\ntoxic work culture, it's almost like everybody has a story of a bad boss.\n\n1296\n01:03:29.290 --> 01:03:30.560\nEveryone has a story\n\n1297\n01:03:30.560 --> 01:03:35.770\nabout a bad boss. And I mean, I do. I'm sure you might have a story about a bad\n\n1298\n01:03:35.770 --> 01:03:36.400\nboss, but\n\n1299\n01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:41.810\nyou know, the whole point of this work that we're doing is to make that happen\n\n1300\n01:03:41.810 --> 01:03:43.920\nless. And I think\n\n1301\n01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:49.120\nit's so important to think through the cost of working in an environment or for\n\n1302\n01:03:49.120 --> 01:03:49.360\nsomeone who\n\n1303\n01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:53.890\nisn't self-aware and doesn't appreciate you because it's not just that you go\n\n1304\n01:03:53.890 --> 01:03:54.720\nto work and have a\n\n1305\n01:03:54.720 --> 01:03:59.130\nbad day at work because you have a toxic work culture or a bad boss. It seeps\n\n1306\n01:03:59.130 --> 01:04:00.160\ninto every aspect\n\n1307\n01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:07.750\nof your life. And so I love this piece of advice from Peter. And I am hopeful\n\n1308\n01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:09.200\nthat this podcast is\n\n1309\n01:04:09.200 --> 01:04:14.720\nhelping bad bosses become better bosses all across the world. Well, that's why\n\n1310\n01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:14.880\nwe're\n\n1311\n01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:18.780\ndoing it. We are trying to make the world a better place by helping to develop\n\n1312\n01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:19.600\nbetter leaders.\n\n1313\n01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:26.400\nAnd when you look at the statistics, I think over 80% people say that there's a\n\n1314\n01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.120\ntoxic work\n\n1315\n01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:33.440\nenvironment out there. And that is so, so sad. And our job is to help leaders\n\n1316\n01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.200\nbecome better at\n\n1317\n01:04:35.200 --> 01:04:40.410\nwhat they do. Now, the reality is, is that yeah, we're doing the best job we\n\n1318\n01:04:40.410 --> 01:04:41.440\npossibly can at that,\n\n1319\n01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:46.170\nor at least we're trying. But the people that tune in, you know, these are\n\n1320\n01:04:46.170 --> 01:04:46.880\nleaders who want to\n\n1321\n01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.230\nget better. You know, everybody's listening right now is listening because they\n\n1322\n01:04:50.230 --> 01:04:50.880\nwant to learn\n\n1323\n01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:55.240\nfrom leaders that they want to get better. But I think, you know, what they can\n\n1324\n01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:56.000\ndo by getting\n\n1325\n01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.720\nbetter in their workplace is set the example that other people will want to\n\n1326\n01:04:59.720 --> 01:05:00.880\nfollow. And I think\n\n1327\n01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.480\nthat's how we can really make the biggest difference. You know, if you if you\n\n1328\n01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:05.520\nlead the right way and\n\n1329\n01:05:05.520 --> 01:05:09.550\nyou get great results, people want to do what you do. And, you know, that's\n\n1330\n01:05:09.550 --> 01:05:10.720\nwhat I'm hoping this\n\n1331\n01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:14.560\npodcast does is helps people lead the right way by learning from other people\n\n1332\n01:05:14.560 --> 01:05:15.520\nthat really know\n\n1333\n01:05:15.520 --> 01:05:19.040\nwhat they're doing. You know, in this particular episode, you know, I think we\n\n1334\n01:05:19.040 --> 01:05:20.960\nlearned a few things\n\n1335\n01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:25.360\nis that, you know, there is a cost of leadership. You have to step up and lead\n\n1336\n01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:27.360\nwhen it's time. And\n\n1337\n01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:31.720\nif you don't lead, you're not exercising the privilege of leadership. And you\n\n1338\n01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:32.320\n've got to make\n\n1339\n01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:36.850\nobviously the easy decisions are easier, the tougher decisions are tougher, but\n\n1340\n01:05:36.850 --> 01:05:37.200\nyou have to\n\n1341\n01:05:37.200 --> 01:05:41.590\nmake them all. The other thing is, is that, you know, if you get in a position\n\n1342\n01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:42.800\nwhere you're hiring\n\n1343\n01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:48.250\npeople and building a team, you can't sacrifice your standards. You've got to\n\n1344\n01:05:48.250 --> 01:05:48.800\nyou've got to be\n\n1345\n01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:51.770\ndemanding. You've got to have two things happen. You've got to have people who\n\n1346\n01:05:51.770 --> 01:05:52.640\nplay on a team,\n\n1347\n01:05:53.200 --> 01:05:57.440\nand then they're very talented at what they do. One without the others,\n\n1348\n01:05:57.440 --> 01:05:58.240\nunacceptable.\n\n1349\n01:05:58.240 --> 01:06:03.450\nAnd you as a leader have got to create a team mentality that helps you, helps\n\n1350\n01:06:03.450 --> 01:06:03.840\nyou, you know,\n\n1351\n01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:09.680\nget that the talented people that can play on a team. And last but not least,\n\n1352\n01:06:09.680 --> 01:06:11.040\nas you, as you,\n\n1353\n01:06:11.040 --> 01:06:16.990\nyou know, think about your career, you know, if you're going to school, go to\n\n1354\n01:06:16.990 --> 01:06:17.600\nthe best school,\n\n1355\n01:06:17.600 --> 01:06:21.190\nyou can go get the best grades you can. So maybe you can have the opportunity\n\n1356\n01:06:21.190 --> 01:06:22.000\nto pick your boss\n\n1357\n01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:26.010\nbecause everybody really wants you, okay? But then once you get into the work\n\n1358\n01:06:26.010 --> 01:06:26.240\nflows,\n\n1359\n01:06:26.240 --> 01:06:31.530\nand you crush it where you're at, you know, absolutely do a great job so that\n\n1360\n01:06:31.530 --> 01:06:32.000\nyou become\n\n1361\n01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.020\nin demand. So when you get that next job, you can pick your boss, because when\n\n1362\n01:06:36.020 --> 01:06:36.800\nyou can pick your\n\n1363\n01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:40.640\nboss, you can pick the person who's really going to invest in you and help you\n\n1364\n01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:42.640\nachieve the potential\n\n1365\n01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:46.730\nthat you have within. And that's what we all want to do, right? We all want to\n\n1366\n01:06:46.730 --> 01:06:47.760\ngrow to our\n\n1367\n01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:52.430\nultimate potential. And, you know, when you have a boss that invests in you,\n\n1368\n01:06:52.430 --> 01:06:53.920\nman, are you lucky.\n\n1369\n01:06:53.920 --> 01:07:00.510\nOne of my great, great fortunes was that I never worked for anybody that didn't\n\n1370\n01:07:00.510 --> 01:07:01.280\ninvest in me. It\n\n1371\n01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.710\nwasn't because I picked him. I just got lucky, okay? But if I could pick him, I\n\n1372\n01:07:05.710 --> 01:07:06.240\nwould have picked\n\n1373\n01:07:06.240 --> 01:07:09.810\nevery one of them because they taught me a lot and they believed in me and they\n\n1374\n01:07:09.810 --> 01:07:10.640\nhelped me become\n\n1375\n01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:15.800\nthe best that I could possibly be. And, you know, I'm sure I fell short many,\n\n1376\n01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:16.960\nmany times, but man,\n\n1377\n01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:20.400\nI had them rooting for me and cheering me on all along the way.\n\n1378\n01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:24.800\nI love it, David. Well, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation with\n\n1379\n01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:25.600\nPeter Whartonhood.\n\n1380\n01:07:25.600 --> 01:07:29.800\nAnd thank you for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n1381\n01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:30.400\nNovak.\n\n1382\n01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:32.880\nTune in next Thursday and we will see you soon.\n","is_pinned",false,"pinned_at","is_featured","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL2508539267.mp3","dx_media_id",3497,"video_media_id","thumbnail_image_media_id","published_date","2026-03-12","itunes_episode_id",282,"youtube_id","7hPiQ08gc84","2026-08-19T21:35:02.000000Z","Listen to this leadership podcast with Peter Wharton-Hood, CEO of LIFE Healthcare Group, and discover what it looks like to make your team your top priority.","dx_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/xHtiLswRoRtnFH5McO6L2h71bvnsIY8cNWpAv9dY.mp3","dx_filename","xHtiLswRoRtnFH5McO6L2h71bvnsIY8cNWpAv9dY.mp3","dx_mux_playback_id","slyXEe9gHpSeCE0102q7nYQ00nRD006yN1BbAaw2c00fXq3M","dx_waveform_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/waveforms/3497.json","video_url","video_mux_playback_id","duration",4062397,"thumbnail_url","https://img.youtube.com/vi/7hPiQ08gc84/maxresdefault.jpg","thumbnail_image_url","dx_media",{"_13":66,"_96":80,"_97":78,"_98":-5,"_31":82,"_33":99,"_100":-5,"_101":84,"_87":88,"_102":-5},"video_media","thumbnail_image_media","filename","url","status","9XeNzuwAZUu2zdFq3F1Fuh00LwCHWYgjV5d3PfKRYIZ00","mux_upload_id","waveform_url","preview_media_id","first_name","Peter","last_name","Wharton-Hood","job_title","Life Healthcare Group, CEO","Peter Wharton Hood, healthcare, CEO, LIFE healthcare","external_links","https://za.linkedin.com/in/peter-wharton-hood-981596194,https://www.lifehealthcare.co.za/investor-relations/our-directors/",0,"image_media_id",3454,3455,"2026-07-20T20:35:20.000000Z","send_push_notification_at","image_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/P5xIUrdWjwLhTxrBzLkWqGwJaoGhe3A3bkqC2LfQ.jpg","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/w1I92AQJ1fB6ft8eKv4m7TUCDwXqPNbtV9LZaGoK.jpg","https://www.howleaderslead.com/leaders/268/peter-wharton-hood","industry_id",9,"industry",{"_13":123,"_134":135,"_136":138},"industries",[133],"image_media",{"_13":114,"_96":132,"_97":119,"_98":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_100":-5,"_101":-5,"_87":-5,"_102":-5},{"_13":115,"_96":131,"_97":120,"_98":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_100":-5,"_101":-5,"_87":-5,"_102":-5},"w1I92AQJ1fB6ft8eKv4m7TUCDwXqPNbtV9LZaGoK.jpg","P5xIUrdWjwLhTxrBzLkWqGwJaoGhe3A3bkqC2LfQ.jpg",{"_13":123,"_134":135,"_136":137},"name","Business and Consulting","pivot",{"_35":36,"_122":123},{"_35":36,"_122":123},"user","token","favorites",[],"collections",[],"env",{"_147":148,"_149":150,"_151":152,"_153":154,"_155":156},"GOOGLE_CLIENT_ID","644017954836-qpllhu38r0tsrtfq85ukntcvsb0akbht.apps.googleusercontent.com","APPLE_CLIENT_ID","com.howleaderslead.webapp","APPLE_REDIRECT_URI","https://www.howleaderslead.com/auth/apple-callback","APP_URL","https://howleaderslead.com","GTM_ID",""]