[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_141":-5,"_142":-5,"_143":144,"_145":146,"_147":148},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3416/watch-what-customers-do-not-what-they-say","id",3416,"title","Watch what customers do, not what they say","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.260\ndon't trust what people say, trust what they do.\n\n2\n00:00:04.260 --> 00:00:06.980\nAnd what that means simply is that\n\n3\n00:00:06.980 --> 00:00:09.940\nwhen you're trying to solve a customer problem,\n\n4\n00:00:09.940 --> 00:00:13.740\nthe power of direct observation is everything.\n\n5\n00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:16.580\nI am not a big fan of generic user research.\n\n6\n00:00:16.580 --> 00:00:19.740\nI'm not a big fan of kind of qualitative surveys\n\n7\n00:00:19.740 --> 00:00:22.460\nand things like that because there are all kinds\n\n8\n00:00:22.460 --> 00:00:25.420\nof intrinsic biases in how they lead you\n\n9\n00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:28.580\nto incorrect insights about consumers.\n\n10\n00:00:28.580 --> 00:00:30.500\nThe only way to understand a consumer\n\n11\n00:00:30.500 --> 00:00:33.680\nis to go into their home, talk to them deeply\n\n12\n00:00:33.680 --> 00:00:36.660\nabout the problem, ask them deep probing questions,\n\n13\n00:00:36.660 --> 00:00:40.860\nlet them talk, and then observe what they actually do.\n\n14\n00:00:40.860 --> 00:00:44.620\nAnd this is where when I was running TurboTax,\n\n15\n00:00:44.620 --> 00:00:46.940\na lot of learning came my ways\n\n16\n00:00:46.940 --> 00:00:49.420\nbecause we used to do these follow me homes.\n\n17\n00:00:49.420 --> 00:00:52.260\nAnd that's the only way that you build a real empathy.\n\n18\n00:00:52.260 --> 00:00:55.340\nAnd I remember being in DC doing a follow me home\n\n19\n00:00:55.340 --> 00:00:58.020\nwith a lower income family.\n\n20\n00:00:58.020 --> 00:01:00.100\nAnd they were talking about the importance\n\n21\n00:01:00.100 --> 00:01:02.100\nof the tax return and the fact\n\n22\n00:01:02.100 --> 00:01:05.540\nthat it is the biggest paycheck of the year.\n\n23\n00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:08.900\nAnd they would talk about pacing the halls at night,\n\n24\n00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:12.700\nnot sure if they would get a refund or a credit,\n\n25\n00:01:12.700 --> 00:01:15.340\nor whether they would owe taxes.\n\n26\n00:01:15.340 --> 00:01:17.820\nAnd then they would walk over this family,\n\n27\n00:01:17.820 --> 00:01:19.460\nI'll never forget this lady walked over\n\n28\n00:01:19.460 --> 00:01:21.340\nto where she kept all of her receipts\n\n29\n00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:24.900\nand all of her tax documents and couldn't find her W2\n\n30\n00:01:24.900 --> 00:01:28.380\nand just broke down in the middle of the conversation.\n\n31\n00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:31.060\nAnd so if your mission is as important as doing,\n\n32\n00:01:31.060 --> 00:01:34.540\nyou know, in the nation's taxes or even as, I would say,\n\n33\n00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:35.860\na huge emission of rockets,\n\n34\n00:01:35.860 --> 00:01:39.220\nwhich is to create safe, sustainable home ownership\n\n35\n00:01:39.220 --> 00:01:42.860\nwithout being in the room to experience that,\n\n36\n00:01:42.860 --> 00:01:44.860\nhow do you develop the right kind of empathy?\n\n37\n00:01:44.860 --> 00:01:46.700\nYou have to be where the consumer is,\n\n38\n00:01:46.700 --> 00:01:49.000\nyou have to hear through their own direct words,\n\n39\n00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.740\nyou have to watch what they do, not what they say.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",1491449,"end_time",1603029,"keywords","Customer, customer experience, observation, empathy, user research, turbotax, intuit","slug","watch-what-customers-do-not-what-they-say","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","ylHNI7ckG3XtBZ2PZmeGgR78iiSMgcfY4hA7UT2FvT4","mux_asset_id","rz02jutgSk25u1etFGSsR018PZRO01wyJVHHnJE4xX61QU","leader_id",291,"episode_id",440,"updated_at","2026-07-30T16:43:43.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3416/watch-what-customers-do-not-what-they-say","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_104":105,"_106":107,"_108":109,"_25":110,"_111":112,"_61":113,"_58":113,"_114":115,"_68":116,"_39":117,"_118":119,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_120":121,"_91":122,"_44":123,"_124":125,"_126":127,"_46":-5,"_128":129,"_130":131,"_95":132,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":54,"_55":56,"_18":57,"_20":-5,"_58":59,"_60":-5,"_61":59,"_62":-5,"_63":64,"_65":66,"_67":-5,"_68":-5,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_35":36,"_39":75,"_41":-5,"_42":76,"_43":-5,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_87":88,"_89":90,"_91":-5,"_46":-5,"_92":93,"_94":-5,"_95":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","Culture is rooted in behavior, not words","culture-is-rooted-in-behavior-not-words","You can't have a great work culture just by talking about values. Those values have to take shape through behavior—what gets recognized, prioritized, and amplified each and every day.","summary","

We’ve all heard the famous quote that “culture eats strategy for breakfast.”

But as CEO of Rocket Companies, Varun Krishna knows that a healthy work environment doesn’t just happen. In this episode, he talks about why so many organizations get it wrong. He also shares several key principles he and his team use to forge their culture in real behavior, not just words on a slide deck.

That foundation has allowed Rocket to scale massively—including over $16 billion in acquisitions—without losing who they are.

This episode is for you if:

You are always looking for ways to strengthen your culture
You want to find a noble cause for your business
You develop products or work with customers
You want to be more present at home

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.160\nHello everyone, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n2\n00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:04.800\nNovak.\n\n3\n00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:09.610\nToday on the show, we have Varun Krishna. He's the CEO of Rocket, and before\n\n4\n00:00:09.610 --> 00:00:10.000\nRocket,\n\n5\n00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.000\nhe's held leadership roles at Microsoft, Groupon, PayPal, and Intuit.\n\n6\n00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:18.850\nToday at Rocket, he's transforming one of America's most iconic financial\n\n7\n00:00:18.850 --> 00:00:19.680\ncompanies,\n\n8\n00:00:19.680 --> 00:00:23.760\nand he's doing it all without losing the culture that's made it so successful.\n\n9\n00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:27.680\nIn this conversation, you'll learn how Varun thinks about culture and how you\n\n10\n00:00:27.680 --> 00:00:28.800\ntoo can nurture\n\n11\n00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:33.580\nyour culture so that it drives the success of your business. Enjoy this\n\n12\n00:00:33.580 --> 00:00:34.160\nconversation with\n\n13\n00:00:34.160 --> 00:00:36.960\nDavid and Varun, and I'll see you at the end of the episode.\n\n14\n00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:46.000\nYou know, I've been doing a little bit of research on you, and I understand\n\n15\n00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:47.360\njust a couple months ago,\n\n16\n00:00:47.360 --> 00:00:53.610\nyou skipped a town hall meeting and took your leadership team to the pickleball\n\n17\n00:00:53.610 --> 00:00:54.880\ncourts instead.\n\n18\n00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:57.680\nYou know, first things first, how's your pickleball game?\n\n19\n00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:04.240\nYou know, I think it's always in need of improvement would probably be the best\n\n20\n00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:04.720\nanswer.\n\n21\n00:01:04.720 --> 00:01:10.240\nI'd never played pickleball until like December of last year, and I went out\n\n22\n00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:10.720\nwith a couple\n\n23\n00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:14.500\nof friends and started playing, and I really liked it. It wasn't very good at\n\n24\n00:01:14.500 --> 00:01:15.440\nit, but that\n\n25\n00:01:15.440 --> 00:01:21.040\nwasn't an excuse to just start playing, and so I'm probably like a mediocre\n\n26\n00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:22.160\nplayer, but really like\n\n27\n00:01:22.160 --> 00:01:28.480\nthe game for many reasons. And yeah, we thought it would be a fun way to just\n\n28\n00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:28.960\ndo something a\n\n29\n00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:32.460\nlittle different and build connections that we took like, we took 300 of our\n\n30\n00:01:32.460 --> 00:01:32.960\nleaders,\n\n31\n00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:39.170\nwe rented out a place, we had the golf sim, some ping pong, and you know, I\n\n32\n00:01:39.170 --> 00:01:40.320\nthink teams that\n\n33\n00:01:40.320 --> 00:01:43.940\nplay together are going to also work really well together, and so it's just\n\n34\n00:01:43.940 --> 00:01:45.280\nkind of an orthodox\n\n35\n00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:48.800\nidea, and I think folks really enjoyed it. Now, are you a guy that really\n\n36\n00:01:48.800 --> 00:01:50.000\nbelieves in shared\n\n37\n00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:55.810\nexperiences to really drive teamwork and culture? I am. I'm a big believer in\n\n38\n00:01:55.810 --> 00:01:57.040\nshared experience. I\n\n39\n00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:03.610\nthink when you and a group of people are able to see something all at the same\n\n40\n00:02:03.610 --> 00:02:05.120\ntime, there's a power\n\n41\n00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:08.460\nin that experience that's more than just verbal. I think it's all the\n\n42\n00:02:08.460 --> 00:02:09.920\nsubconscious interactions,\n\n43\n00:02:09.920 --> 00:02:14.970\nthe little energies that float around a room, and I think the more you can try\n\n44\n00:02:14.970 --> 00:02:16.320\nto create experiences\n\n45\n00:02:16.320 --> 00:02:20.750\npreferably in person where a group of people can experience the same thing, I\n\n46\n00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:21.680\nthink it has a\n\n47\n00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.800\ntotally different kind of energy. Not a lot of leaders talk about the\n\n48\n00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:26.080\nimportance of having fun,\n\n49\n00:02:26.080 --> 00:02:32.000\nand you took the time to take your leaders out and have this pickleball\n\n50\n00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:38.700\ntournament or whatever you did. What do you think came out of that that really\n\n51\n00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:39.040\ntakes the\n\n52\n00:02:39.040 --> 00:02:44.090\nbusiness forward? I actually think distraction is very healthy. I think the way\n\n53\n00:02:44.090 --> 00:02:45.200\nthat the human\n\n54\n00:02:45.200 --> 00:02:51.200\nbrain sometimes works is when you are on the grind and let's say you're\n\n55\n00:02:51.200 --> 00:02:52.480\nthinking about something\n\n56\n00:02:52.480 --> 00:02:57.920\nday in, day out, there's a little bit of fatigue that creeps in, and it's very\n\n57\n00:02:57.920 --> 00:02:58.880\nsubconscious because\n\n58\n00:02:58.880 --> 00:03:03.930\nyou're not always aware of when you're on your A game or on your B game or on\n\n59\n00:03:03.930 --> 00:03:05.920\nyour C game. I believe\n\n60\n00:03:05.920 --> 00:03:10.970\nin this, it's an inchworm where your goal is to not always be on your A game.\n\n61\n00:03:10.970 --> 00:03:11.920\nYour goal is to make\n\n62\n00:03:11.920 --> 00:03:16.720\nyour C game better and your B game better and your A game better so that you're\n\n63\n00:03:16.720 --> 00:03:17.360\ngoing to have good\n\n64\n00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.410\ndays, you're going to have bad days. The purpose of this was really simple. It\n\n65\n00:03:22.410 --> 00:03:23.760\nwas that I didn't want\n\n66\n00:03:23.760 --> 00:03:27.490\nit to have anything to do with work very intentionally. I wanted it to be a\n\n67\n00:03:27.490 --> 00:03:29.280\ndistraction. I wanted the\n\n68\n00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:35.560\nteam to feel like, wow, we could be sitting around having a coffee networking\n\n69\n00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:36.960\nthing, but instead\n\n70\n00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.640\nwe're experiencing movement, we're sweating a little bit, friendly competition,\n\n71\n00:03:42.640 --> 00:03:48.150\nhilarious moments of missed shots or lost opportunities. It just becomes a\n\n72\n00:03:48.150 --> 00:03:51.040\nmemory. I'm a big believer\n\n73\n00:03:51.040 --> 00:03:56.370\nin trying to create things that are more memorable because that's how you\n\n74\n00:03:56.370 --> 00:03:58.240\ncreate longevity. I think\n\n75\n00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:04.190\nthat there's human connection and bonding. It comes from things like humor, it\n\n76\n00:04:04.190 --> 00:04:05.200\ncomes from social\n\n77\n00:04:05.200 --> 00:04:11.900\ninteraction. It comes from things that don't traditionally feel like work. If\n\n78\n00:04:11.900 --> 00:04:14.160\nyou can play\n\n79\n00:04:14.160 --> 00:04:19.610\npickleball with somebody and hit a drop shot or miss a big volley and just\n\n80\n00:04:19.610 --> 00:04:21.200\ncompletely whiff on the\n\n81\n00:04:21.200 --> 00:04:26.950\nball and just have a laugh together, what can't you do? It feels like when you\n\n82\n00:04:26.950 --> 00:04:27.840\n're back in the\n\n83\n00:04:27.840 --> 00:04:33.200\noffice and trying to conquer a deliverable or prioritize something, you look at\n\n84\n00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:33.840\nthe person\n\n85\n00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:38.150\nsitting across from you as a human being and I think that leads to better\n\n86\n00:04:38.150 --> 00:04:39.520\ndecision-making,\n\n87\n00:04:39.520 --> 00:04:43.120\nbetter teamwork. You mentioned about the importance of getting yourself at\n\n88\n00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.120\nleast a B game and hopefully\n\n89\n00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.880\nup to an A game. Do you have a process or anything that you do each day to try\n\n90\n00:04:49.880 --> 00:04:52.240\nto get your mindset\n\n91\n00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:59.300\nready to go lead? Yeah, I do and I think I'm a work in progress just like\n\n92\n00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:00.960\nanybody out there\n\n93\n00:05:00.960 --> 00:05:04.240\nand I don't think that there's anything that really separates you no matter\n\n94\n00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.280\nwhat level of\n\n95\n00:05:05.280 --> 00:05:10.050\nleader you are or if you're not a leader but I'm a big believer in morning\n\n96\n00:05:10.050 --> 00:05:11.200\nroutines. I think that\n\n97\n00:05:11.200 --> 00:05:15.440\nthe way you start the day kind of sets the course for the rest of the day and\n\n98\n00:05:15.440 --> 00:05:17.600\nif you kind of own\n\n99\n00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:22.800\nyour morning routine and you create the right kind of energy around yourself,\n\n100\n00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:23.920\nthat energy will\n\n101\n00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:28.770\nusually continue into the day and that doesn't mean I do it every day but I\n\n102\n00:05:28.770 --> 00:05:30.080\nlove a morning workout\n\n103\n00:05:30.080 --> 00:05:34.330\nto me every day is a must and it doesn't have to be a long workout. I try\n\n104\n00:05:34.330 --> 00:05:36.400\nreally hard\n\n105\n00:05:36.400 --> 00:05:41.120\nnot to look at my phone for the first 30 to 40 minutes that I've woken up. It's\n\n106\n00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:41.680\nreally hard to\n\n107\n00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.880\ndo because- We're right about that. But the thing about your phone that I've\n\n108\n00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:47.520\nlearned, David,\n\n109\n00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:53.630\nis that like, or at least for me personally, is that when you open your phone\n\n110\n00:05:53.630 --> 00:05:54.320\nin the morning,\n\n111\n00:05:54.320 --> 00:05:59.130\nyou know, let's just say you just woke up, right? A lot of people don't, your\n\n112\n00:05:59.130 --> 00:05:59.680\nbrain is kind of\n\n113\n00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:03.330\ngoing through this alpha, theta, like, you're kind of waking up, your brain\n\n114\n00:06:03.330 --> 00:06:04.000\nwaves are kind of\n\n115\n00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.080\nactivating and so a lot of people don't realize this but it's like when you go\n\n116\n00:06:09.080 --> 00:06:10.000\nto sleep or when\n\n117\n00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:13.510\nyou wake up, it's almost like you're a little more impressionable than you\n\n118\n00:06:13.510 --> 00:06:14.480\nwould normally be.\n\n119\n00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:20.320\nSet a different way, you know, do you control your environment or does your\n\n120\n00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:21.680\nenvironment control you\n\n121\n00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:26.730\nand what I found was if the first thing I did was check my phone then in that\n\n122\n00:06:26.730 --> 00:06:27.440\nslightly more\n\n123\n00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:33.030\nsuggestive state of mind, all of the input signals and whatever they are are\n\n124\n00:06:33.030 --> 00:06:34.480\ngoing to kind of set\n\n125\n00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:41.990\nmy mood or my intention. And if instead I woke up, you know, and just some\n\n126\n00:06:41.990 --> 00:06:42.560\nsimple things,\n\n127\n00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.270\njust drink water, did some movement, read something, it doesn't have to be, you\n\n128\n00:06:47.270 --> 00:06:48.480\nknow, like, overly\n\n129\n00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:54.470\nrigorous. And then when I pick up my phone, I'm in a state of higher sort of\n\n130\n00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:55.920\nintentionality.\n\n131\n00:06:56.640 --> 00:07:01.520\nIt's almost like your perception of this angry text message or this escalation\n\n132\n00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:02.480\nor this particular\n\n133\n00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:07.530\nissue or this opportunity is very different. It's like I'm in control of this\n\n134\n00:07:07.530 --> 00:07:08.240\nversus it is\n\n135\n00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:14.240\nhappening to me. And so that sort of morning routine intentionality has been\n\n136\n00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:14.880\nkind of a game\n\n137\n00:07:14.880 --> 00:07:20.040\nchanger for me where you declare your intention for the day. It sort of allows\n\n138\n00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:21.040\nyou to feel like\n\n139\n00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:26.090\nyou're a little more in control of your environment. But also I'm a big\n\n140\n00:07:26.090 --> 00:07:28.240\nbeliever in flow. So, you know,\n\n141\n00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:31.750\nowning the morning to me is just sort of a simple thing that I try to stay on\n\n142\n00:07:31.750 --> 00:07:33.440\ntop of. It's a little\n\n143\n00:07:33.440 --> 00:07:37.710\nmore difficult when you're on a more rigorous travel schedule and you're\n\n144\n00:07:37.710 --> 00:07:38.800\ndealing with time\n\n145\n00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.520\ndifferences and things like that. But I don't sleep very late. I'm not kind of\n\n146\n00:07:43.520 --> 00:07:44.400\na big sort of\n\n147\n00:07:44.400 --> 00:07:49.050\nnight-out person either. But mornings are really important. You know, one of\n\n148\n00:07:49.050 --> 00:07:49.920\nthe things you say\n\n149\n00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:53.340\nthat I love, and I know you're a big believer in culture, but one of your\n\n150\n00:07:53.340 --> 00:07:54.240\ncomments is you say\n\n151\n00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:01.280\nculture isn't built in slides. And tell me where that belief comes from.\n\n152\n00:08:01.280 --> 00:08:04.930\nYou know, I've worked at a lot of different companies over the years. And again\n\n153\n00:08:04.930 --> 00:08:05.520\n, I'm a big\n\n154\n00:08:05.520 --> 00:08:11.620\nbeliever in just the power of new experiences. I think some people, and this is\n\n155\n00:08:11.620 --> 00:08:12.800\nnot good or bad,\n\n156\n00:08:12.800 --> 00:08:16.720\nso there's no judgment here. But some people are very rooted in conditioning\n\n157\n00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:17.120\nand, you know,\n\n158\n00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:21.770\nthey, you know, live in the same place, work in the same place, have the same\n\n159\n00:08:21.770 --> 00:08:22.000\njob,\n\n160\n00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.660\nlive a relatively sort of consistent life. And there's nothing again, nothing\n\n161\n00:08:26.660 --> 00:08:27.280\nwrong with that.\n\n162\n00:08:27.280 --> 00:08:33.830\nI have kind of moved, I've done probably the opposite. I've moved frequently,\n\n163\n00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:34.560\nbeen away from,\n\n164\n00:08:34.560 --> 00:08:38.880\nyou know, about my wife, my son, and I. We've never lived around, you know, our\n\n165\n00:08:38.880 --> 00:08:39.760\nnuclear family,\n\n166\n00:08:39.760 --> 00:08:43.600\nor our parents, grandparents, and uncle. We've always kind of been moving\n\n167\n00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:44.320\naround, you know,\n\n168\n00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:49.170\nevery few years. And that's been good and bad, because, you know, there's a lot\n\n169\n00:08:49.170 --> 00:08:50.160\nthat is more\n\n170\n00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:54.740\ndifficult when you're, when you don't have that family support. But, you know,\n\n171\n00:08:54.740 --> 00:08:55.280\nthe reason I bring\n\n172\n00:08:55.280 --> 00:08:59.150\nthis up is because in the context of culture, I have had the opportunity to\n\n173\n00:08:59.150 --> 00:09:00.080\nwork for a lot of\n\n174\n00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:05.260\ndifferent companies in different stages. Microsoft, Groupon, PayPal, Intuit,\n\n175\n00:09:05.260 --> 00:09:07.200\nand that rocket. And,\n\n176\n00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:12.100\nyou know, culture in some ways is deeper than your strategy, what you're trying\n\n177\n00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:13.040\nto do as a company.\n\n178\n00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:20.490\nYou know, what your mission is and how you get there is going to change. And it\n\n179\n00:09:20.490 --> 00:09:22.320\nis going to change\n\n180\n00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.670\nbecause the world is changing. And as a company, you have to kind of evolve.\n\n181\n00:09:26.670 --> 00:09:27.760\nAnd the stories of\n\n182\n00:09:27.760 --> 00:09:31.180\nthe great companies of our time is in some ways similar to the stories of the\n\n183\n00:09:31.180 --> 00:09:32.160\ngreat people of our\n\n184\n00:09:32.160 --> 00:09:36.240\ntime as they have also evolved, right? You know, that's why people don't view\n\n185\n00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:37.520\nmistakes as mistakes,\n\n186\n00:09:37.520 --> 00:09:40.440\nthey view them as learning opportunities, they don't view failures, failure,\n\n187\n00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:41.040\nthey use it as a\n\n188\n00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:46.600\nlearning opportunity. But culture is different. Culture, in my view, is more of\n\n189\n00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:47.680\na foundational thing\n\n190\n00:09:47.680 --> 00:09:54.160\nthat doesn't really change because culture is about who you are. It's about\n\n191\n00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:54.960\ncharacter,\n\n192\n00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:00.720\nit's about humility, it's about endurance, perseverance, doing the right thing.\n\n193\n00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:02.800\nAnd one thing I will say\n\n194\n00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:06.820\nabout rocket that I think is very unique compared to other companies that I've\n\n195\n00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:08.240\nworked at is that\n\n196\n00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:14.180\nrocket is extremely well known for its culture. And I take zero credit for this\n\n197\n00:10:14.180 --> 00:10:14.960\n. I give all\n\n198\n00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:18.970\nof the credit to our founder, our chairman, Dan Gilbert and the amazing leaders\n\n199\n00:10:18.970 --> 00:10:20.080\nthat came before me.\n\n200\n00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:25.490\nBut they put a heavy emphasis on culture and they decided what kind of\n\n201\n00:10:25.490 --> 00:10:27.360\ncharacter we wanted to\n\n202\n00:10:27.360 --> 00:10:30.900\npersonify in terms of the people that work at this company, the team members\n\n203\n00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:31.680\nthat work at this\n\n204\n00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:37.440\ncompany. And we have a concept that we call our isms, which is a book that has\n\n205\n00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.680\n16 to 20 sort of\n\n206\n00:10:39.680 --> 00:10:45.690\ncolloquial sayings that are rooted in behaviors. Do the right thing, we're the\n\n207\n00:10:45.690 --> 00:10:47.440\nthey, we'll figure it\n\n208\n00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:52.290\nout, you'll see it when you believe it. These are just for examples of isms.\n\n209\n00:10:52.290 --> 00:10:53.440\nAnd these have been\n\n210\n00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:58.130\nbuilt up over time, but it takes a long time to create an enduring culture. And\n\n211\n00:10:58.130 --> 00:10:59.200\nin rocket's case,\n\n212\n00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:03.450\nthis existed for 40 years before I got here. And that is a very powerful thing\n\n213\n00:11:03.450 --> 00:11:04.800\nbecause what it says\n\n214\n00:11:04.800 --> 00:11:10.440\nis who you are will never change. But what you do will constantly evolve. But\n\n215\n00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.160\nbecause you've been\n\n216\n00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:17.440\nclear about who you are, you will be able to drive that kind of evolution. And\n\n217\n00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:18.320\nI think a lot of\n\n218\n00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:23.550\ncompanies, they invest in things like values, they'll have three to five values\n\n219\n00:11:23.550 --> 00:11:24.560\n. And they'll,\n\n220\n00:11:24.560 --> 00:11:28.290\nyou know, they'll put it up on a wall somewhere. They may talk about it in all\n\n221\n00:11:28.290 --> 00:11:29.280\nhands here or there.\n\n222\n00:11:29.280 --> 00:11:33.950\nBut they don't spend a lot of time figuring out, are we living our values? Are\n\n223\n00:11:33.950 --> 00:11:35.680\nwe being the people\n\n224\n00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:39.550\nthat we want to be? Do we exemplify that character? And that's just not\n\n225\n00:11:39.550 --> 00:11:41.280\nsomething that exists on a\n\n226\n00:11:41.280 --> 00:11:44.830\nslide. I think that's something that's rooted in behavior. It's something that\n\n227\n00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:45.520\n's rooted in the\n\n228\n00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:51.310\nlanguage, in the power of language that you use inside of a company in meetings\n\n229\n00:11:51.310 --> 00:11:52.800\n, at social events,\n\n230\n00:11:52.800 --> 00:11:59.280\net cetera, et cetera. And I think Rocket is extremely sort of, I would say\n\n231\n00:11:59.280 --> 00:11:59.680\nmature\n\n232\n00:11:59.680 --> 00:12:05.600\nand correct in how they have thought about, they and us have thought about\n\n233\n00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:06.720\nculture. And\n\n234\n00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:13.420\nI think that culture is going to result in a lot of longevity because when your\n\n235\n00:12:13.420 --> 00:12:14.800\nstrategy changes,\n\n236\n00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:19.850\nwhen you hit a wall, when difficult things happen, your culture is going to be\n\n237\n00:12:19.850 --> 00:12:21.200\nthe thing that gets\n\n238\n00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:26.660\nyou through it. It's not going to be your intellectual viewpoint on your\n\n239\n00:12:26.660 --> 00:12:27.360\nstrategy or\n\n240\n00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:32.020\nexecution. The culture is much more powerful. It's much more influential in\n\n241\n00:12:32.020 --> 00:12:32.800\nsomeone's motivation\n\n242\n00:12:32.800 --> 00:12:36.880\nand wanting to work somewhere. And I think this is something that Rocket has\n\n243\n00:12:36.880 --> 00:12:38.160\nabsolutely nailed.\n\n244\n00:12:38.160 --> 00:12:43.680\nYou know, I read about the isms. I love that. And you have 16 isms. And like\n\n245\n00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:44.160\nyou mentioned,\n\n246\n00:12:44.160 --> 00:12:48.380\na lot of companies have three to five values that they talk about. But you talk\n\n247\n00:12:48.380 --> 00:12:49.360\nabout it\n\n248\n00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.380\nin a way that I like to think about culture, which is the work environment, it\n\n249\n00:12:53.380 --> 00:12:54.480\n's the behaviors.\n\n250\n00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.400\nYou know, it's not values per se, because they're kind of amorphous. But you're\n\n251\n00:12:58.400 --> 00:12:58.960\ntalking about\n\n252\n00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:05.760\nspecific behaviors. And you mentioned a few of the the isms. What's your\n\n253\n00:13:05.760 --> 00:13:06.800\nfavorite ism? Is there\n\n254\n00:13:06.800 --> 00:13:10.220\none that you try to think about more than any other? You know, what's great\n\n255\n00:13:10.220 --> 00:13:11.120\nabout the isms is\n\n256\n00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:15.360\nthere's a reason why there's so many is because it's very situational. There\n\n257\n00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:16.240\nare days when\n\n258\n00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.300\na particular ism matters more. There's weeks when a particular ism matters more\n\n259\n00:13:20.300 --> 00:13:21.680\n. But I think there's\n\n260\n00:13:21.680 --> 00:13:26.080\nthere's a couple I'd highlight too. I think the first one I'd highlight is\n\n261\n00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:27.440\nobsessed with finding\n\n262\n00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:32.490\na better way. And to me that ism is always resonated since the day I came to\n\n263\n00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:34.240\nRocket is because I just\n\n264\n00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.390\nbelieve in evolution. I believe in change. I think human beings need to have a\n\n265\n00:13:38.390 --> 00:13:40.240\nhealthy relationship\n\n266\n00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:44.390\nwith change and to be fearful of things like conditioning. And I think\n\n267\n00:13:44.390 --> 00:13:45.680\nconditioning is one of\n\n268\n00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:48.730\nthe things that I fear most in my life is ever getting to the point where you\n\n269\n00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:49.200\n're like,\n\n270\n00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.960\nI just want to be a student. I'd be I'm happy being a student and learning and\n\n271\n00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:53.680\nbeing curious\n\n272\n00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:58.750\nand growing. But you know, the problem with the ego is at some point it fools\n\n273\n00:13:58.750 --> 00:13:59.840\nyou into thinking\n\n274\n00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:03.780\nthat you've achieved mastery. And that's exactly when you stop learning. And\n\n275\n00:14:03.780 --> 00:14:04.640\nthat's usually when\n\n276\n00:14:04.640 --> 00:14:09.490\nyour career stagnates. And that's usually when other types of things happen. So\n\n277\n00:14:09.490 --> 00:14:10.080\nobsessed with\n\n278\n00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.730\nfinding a better way. I think it teaches us that there is always a better way,\n\n279\n00:14:14.730 --> 00:14:15.680\nno matter how good\n\n280\n00:14:15.680 --> 00:14:20.910\nyou get at something and perfection is sort of this endless pursuit. And then\n\n281\n00:14:20.910 --> 00:14:22.000\nthe second one that\n\n282\n00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:28.120\nI also really like is you'll see it when you believe it. And what I like about\n\n283\n00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:30.000\nthat is it emphasizes\n\n284\n00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:36.080\nbelief over evidence when when it comes to thinking about things. And I think\n\n285\n00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.040\nit's tremendously\n\n286\n00:14:37.040 --> 00:14:41.920\nempowering in a positive way because it says that all you have to do is believe\n\n287\n00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:42.640\nin something to\n\n288\n00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:47.450\nachieve it. You just have to believe. And something as powerful as belief is\n\n289\n00:14:47.450 --> 00:14:48.640\nstrong enough to turn\n\n290\n00:14:48.640 --> 00:14:54.290\ninto proof. And that I find incredibly empowering because it just allows you to\n\n291\n00:14:54.290 --> 00:14:56.400\nnavigate any possible\n\n292\n00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:02.340\nsituation, any possible adversity by just focusing on one simple thing. And\n\n293\n00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:04.400\nthat's I believe I could\n\n294\n00:15:04.400 --> 00:15:07.140\ngo on because there's many others. There's there's another one I really like. I\n\n295\n00:15:07.140 --> 00:15:07.680\n'll just I'll just\n\n296\n00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:11.410\ngive you one more that I love from a leadership perspective. I know this\n\n297\n00:15:11.410 --> 00:15:12.560\npodcast is focused on\n\n298\n00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:18.910\nleadership. It's we'll figure it out. I love that one too. I like that. It's\n\n299\n00:15:18.910 --> 00:15:20.560\njust like it's one is\n\n300\n00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:25.410\nit's when we talk about language, David, like we this is one that the best\n\n301\n00:15:25.410 --> 00:15:26.880\nleaders in my organization\n\n302\n00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:32.110\nand my team just use this on in day to day like we're in a situation. Nobody\n\n303\n00:15:32.110 --> 00:15:33.760\nknows what to do.\n\n304\n00:15:33.760 --> 00:15:36.960\nThere's chaos. You know, everyone's looking at everyone else wondering. And\n\n305\n00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:37.920\nthen one brave soul\n\n306\n00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:43.280\nsteps up and says, we'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. And you know, so\n\n307\n00:15:43.280 --> 00:15:44.960\nagain, the isms\n\n308\n00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:49.620\nwork as a system, you know, Dan, our founder often calls it the ism prism,\n\n309\n00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:51.760\nwhich is it's like a lens\n\n310\n00:15:51.760 --> 00:15:55.210\nthrough which you look at reality or you look at situations, you look at\n\n311\n00:15:55.210 --> 00:15:56.560\nexperiences and you use\n\n312\n00:15:56.560 --> 00:16:02.000\nthe isms kind of as like a moral background or fiber that help you with\n\n313\n00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:03.440\ndecision making,\n\n314\n00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.290\nhelp you with understanding what to do, how to think, how to be, and then\n\n315\n00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:09.680\nultimately do it in a way\n\n316\n00:16:09.680 --> 00:16:14.450\nthat that keeps you kind of motivated, relaxed and happy. You know, you you\n\n317\n00:16:14.450 --> 00:16:15.520\nmentioned that you're\n\n318\n00:16:15.520 --> 00:16:20.570\nobsessed with with evolution and in your company, you've been doing some major\n\n319\n00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:21.440\nleague moves that\n\n320\n00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:27.360\nto really evolve rocket since you become the the CEO for someone who thinks of\n\n321\n00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:28.560\nrocket is only a\n\n322\n00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:32.410\nmortgage company. You know, what are they missing? The root of the question is\n\n323\n00:16:32.410 --> 00:16:33.440\ninteresting to me\n\n324\n00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:41.530\nbecause I think it confuses two two things. It confuses what and it confuses\n\n325\n00:16:41.530 --> 00:16:44.800\nhow and you're what\n\n326\n00:16:44.800 --> 00:16:49.200\nand you're how are two different things. What you do should typically never\n\n327\n00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:50.480\nchange, but how you do it\n\n328\n00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:56.810\nshould constantly evolve. Our what is homeownership, right? Our mission\n\n329\n00:16:56.810 --> 00:16:58.960\nstatement for the company\n\n330\n00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:04.720\nis three words. It's help everyone home. That is our what mortgages is only one\n\n331\n00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:05.920\npart of how we do\n\n332\n00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:10.730\nthat and a mortgage is a mechanism to put more people in homes, but so is\n\n333\n00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:12.160\nsearching for a home.\n\n334\n00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:17.080\nSo is helping someone stay in a home once they're in a home. And so we've done\n\n335\n00:17:17.080 --> 00:17:18.160\na couple of big\n\n336\n00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:22.000\nacquisitions. We bought a company called Redfin. We also bought a company\n\n337\n00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:23.120\ncalled Mr. Cooper. These\n\n338\n00:17:23.120 --> 00:17:27.240\nare in total about $16 billion of acquisitions. We've added two public\n\n339\n00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.200\ncompanies and 10,000 people\n\n340\n00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:34.250\nto the overall organization. So it's a massive undertaking, but part of it is\n\n341\n00:17:34.250 --> 00:17:35.360\nit's it's that what\n\n342\n00:17:35.360 --> 00:17:39.800\nrocket is is a home ownership company. We're not a mortgage company. We happen\n\n343\n00:17:39.800 --> 00:17:40.720\nto do mortgages\n\n344\n00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:44.560\nand we also happen to bet big on technology and we're a tech company, but\n\n345\n00:17:44.560 --> 00:17:45.920\nmortgages and technology\n\n346\n00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:51.600\nare how in order to achieve home ownership. Home ownership is our what and our\n\n347\n00:17:51.600 --> 00:17:52.480\nwhat will never\n\n348\n00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.920\nchange. And that is what I would say to someone who thinks the rocket is a\n\n349\n00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.040\nmortgage company.\n\n350\n00:17:57.040 --> 00:18:04.080\nAnd you know, you've acquired Redfin and Mr. Cooper. Take us through the\n\n351\n00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:05.680\ndecision-making process\n\n352\n00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:11.360\nyou used to get to that point, because like I said, big bets.\n\n353\n00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:17.440\nYeah, no, very big bets. And I would say very principled approach to making the\n\n354\n00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:18.000\ndecisions.\n\n355\n00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.440\nThese weren't kind of off the cuff decisions in any way, shape or form, because\n\n356\n00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:22.880\nthese companies\n\n357\n00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:27.890\nare both public, very well known, very well established in their own right. And\n\n358\n00:18:27.890 --> 00:18:28.080\nI think\n\n359\n00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.670\nthere's a couple of things that really let us down this path. I think the first\n\n360\n00:18:31.670 --> 00:18:33.760\nis this realization\n\n361\n00:18:33.760 --> 00:18:39.440\nthat home ownership is a system. It's not individual parts and pieces. And yet\n\n362\n00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.120\nevery client has to\n\n363\n00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:44.850\nsearch for a home. Every client has to figure out whether to work with an agent\n\n364\n00:18:44.850 --> 00:18:45.520\nor a broker\n\n365\n00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:49.530\nor someone in between. Every client has to figure out how to get financed. Then\n\n366\n00:18:49.530 --> 00:18:50.160\nthey have to go\n\n367\n00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:56.730\nthrough title, closing, escrow, all of that. Then every client, once they're in\n\n368\n00:18:56.730 --> 00:18:57.280\na home,\n\n369\n00:18:57.280 --> 00:19:01.200\nhas this sort of what we call servicing relationship where they're making their\n\n370\n00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.640\nproperty tax payments.\n\n371\n00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.870\nYou know, they're making sure that any issues are dealt with, property\n\n372\n00:19:05.870 --> 00:19:08.160\ninsurance, etc, etc. So\n\n373\n00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:14.010\nyou have these kind of three pieces of the equation, but they're all like\n\n374\n00:19:14.010 --> 00:19:14.400\nseparate\n\n375\n00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.330\nindustries. You have like the home search portal experience, which is one\n\n376\n00:19:17.330 --> 00:19:19.200\nindustry. You have the\n\n377\n00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.130\nmortgage industry, which can include things like title and then you have the\n\n378\n00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:24.160\nservicing industry.\n\n379\n00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:28.560\nSo a client has to navigate all of them, but the industries themselves could\n\n380\n00:19:28.560 --> 00:19:29.040\nnot be more\n\n381\n00:19:29.040 --> 00:19:33.850\ndisconnected. And as a result, there's a lot of friction. It's expensive,\n\n382\n00:19:33.850 --> 00:19:35.040\ncomplicated and manual.\n\n383\n00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:40.970\nAnd what we found is we started experimenting with home search, with rocket\n\n384\n00:19:40.970 --> 00:19:41.600\nhomes.\n\n385\n00:19:41.600 --> 00:19:48.000\nWe have our own servicing business with rocket mortgage servicing. And what we\n\n386\n00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:48.960\nfound is when a\n\n387\n00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:53.320\nclient experiences more than one of those things together with rocket, we take\n\n388\n00:19:53.320 --> 00:19:53.920\nout a lot of the\n\n389\n00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:58.640\nfriction because we participate in the economics. We can provide more value to\n\n390\n00:19:58.640 --> 00:19:59.440\nthe consumer in the\n\n391\n00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:04.680\nform of lower rates and fees. And the client is more likely to come back to us\n\n392\n00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:05.600\nand spend more\n\n393\n00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:10.350\ntime with us from a lifetime value perspective. And so a simple way of saying\n\n394\n00:20:10.350 --> 00:20:12.000\nthat is we created\n\n395\n00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.840\nwhat's called a lifetime value to customer acquisition cost ratio and consumer\n\n396\n00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:16.880\nparlance,\n\n397\n00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:19.920\nbut no one else in housing had ever done that or even thought of it that way.\n\n398\n00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:20.400\nIt was just the\n\n399\n00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.960\nconsumer flows from one industry to another. And what we realized is that\n\n400\n00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:27.760\nstrategy was really\n\n401\n00:20:27.760 --> 00:20:31.520\nworking for us, and we wanted to supercharge it. And so we said, okay, well,\n\n402\n00:20:31.520 --> 00:20:32.320\nhow do we accelerate\n\n403\n00:20:32.320 --> 00:20:35.850\nthat? Well, we're going to not just go after home search in a portal, we're\n\n404\n00:20:35.850 --> 00:20:36.160\ngoing to get\n\n405\n00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:39.890\nthe best home search in Portland. That's Redfin. We're not just going to go\n\n406\n00:20:39.890 --> 00:20:40.560\nafter servicing,\n\n407\n00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:43.440\nwe're going to buy the biggest servicer in the nation. And that's Mr. Cooper.\n\n408\n00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:44.640\nAnd what we're\n\n409\n00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:49.030\ngoing to do is we're going to connect these three user funnels into what we\n\n410\n00:20:49.030 --> 00:20:50.320\ncall a super funnel.\n\n411\n00:20:50.320 --> 00:20:55.380\nAnd if we do that right, it's a win-win-win. So that's kind of the intellectual\n\n412\n00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:56.320\nhypothesis,\n\n413\n00:20:56.320 --> 00:21:00.160\nbut I would say that the more interesting hypothesis is I spent a lot of time\n\n414\n00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:01.520\njust meeting the CEOs\n\n415\n00:21:01.520 --> 00:21:06.330\nof these companies and getting to know them, spending a lot of time talking\n\n416\n00:21:06.330 --> 00:21:07.520\nabout creating\n\n417\n00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:11.170\nthose shared experiences that we talked about earlier, saying, hey, do you see\n\n418\n00:21:11.170 --> 00:21:12.080\nthe world the same\n\n419\n00:21:12.080 --> 00:21:18.590\nway? Could we work well together? Do you feel empowered to lead together? Can\n\n420\n00:21:18.590 --> 00:21:19.360\nwe build sort of\n\n421\n00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:22.780\nthat shared leadership model together? And those conversations happened over\n\n422\n00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:25.040\nmany, many, many months.\n\n423\n00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.300\nAnd we got to the same conclusion, which is that we are better together than we\n\n424\n00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:32.000\nare apart. We see\n\n425\n00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:36.680\nthe same view of the world. We think our cultures can align. And the cause is\n\n426\n00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:37.920\nworth fighting for.\n\n427\n00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:43.220\nAnd when you have that level of conviction, the strategy is clear. The\n\n428\n00:21:43.220 --> 00:21:44.240\nalignment is clear.\n\n429\n00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:49.800\nAnd we were able to kind of talk to our boards. We were able to talk to our\n\n430\n00:21:49.800 --> 00:21:50.480\ninvestors. We were\n\n431\n00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.320\nable to talk to our leadership organizations and just say, hey, does this make\n\n432\n00:21:54.320 --> 00:21:55.520\nsense? Does this\n\n433\n00:21:55.520 --> 00:22:01.790\nmean one plus one plus one doesn't equal three, it equals 30. And when you get\n\n434\n00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:02.400\nto that kind of\n\n435\n00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:06.510\nalignment where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, what you find\n\n436\n00:22:06.510 --> 00:22:07.440\nis the team is\n\n437\n00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.250\nwilling to do something audacious because, look, integrating these two\n\n438\n00:22:12.250 --> 00:22:14.000\ncompanies is a massive thing,\n\n439\n00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.760\nright? We're adding thousands and thousands of people in different locations.\n\n440\n00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:18.160\nWe're trying to\n\n441\n00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.930\nfigure out payroll systems, HR systems. We're trying to get cultural alignment,\n\n442\n00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:24.160\nleadership alignment.\n\n443\n00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.920\nWe're trying to deliver short-term results as well as long-term value because\n\n444\n00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:28.560\nwe still have to do\n\n445\n00:22:28.560 --> 00:22:31.480\na quarterly earnings call. We still have to be profitable. We have to take\n\n446\n00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:32.560\nshare. We have to grow.\n\n447\n00:22:32.560 --> 00:22:37.610\nIt's complicated. I won't say that it's easy. It was a lot of sleepless nights.\n\n448\n00:22:37.610 --> 00:22:38.000\nIt was a lot\n\n449\n00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:43.400\nof hard work. The thing is our team believed in the strategy. And so one thing\n\n450\n00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:44.320\nled to another,\n\n451\n00:22:44.320 --> 00:22:49.630\nwe're also very fortunate to have a chairman who likes to take risk, who likes\n\n452\n00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:50.400\nto make bets,\n\n453\n00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:55.680\nwho believes in betting big and is less conservative when it comes to that kind\n\n454\n00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:57.120\nof philosophical thinking.\n\n455\n00:22:57.120 --> 00:23:04.240\nAnd the other thing is, look, not to geek out on the technology and AI space,\n\n456\n00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.000\nbut as a company,\n\n457\n00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:13.040\nthis, I believe, as a technologist, this AI thing is not real. It's not hype.\n\n458\n00:23:13.040 --> 00:23:15.200\nAnd it is going to\n\n459\n00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:21.580\nhave a major impact on every kind of industry. And as a company, to create what\n\n460\n00:23:21.580 --> 00:23:22.000\nI think of\n\n461\n00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.460\nas durable advantage, you have to be able to have unique things that other\n\n462\n00:23:26.460 --> 00:23:27.920\ncompanies don't have.\n\n463\n00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:32.320\nAnd so these acquisitions give us more data. They give us more distribution.\n\n464\n00:23:32.320 --> 00:23:34.240\nThey allow us to\n\n465\n00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:39.580\noperate as an ecosystem. They allow us to build better models. They allow us to\n\n466\n00:23:39.580 --> 00:23:40.400\nget bigger on\n\n467\n00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:46.480\ntechnology. So each of these kind of pieces just came together well. And in the\n\n468\n00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:46.720\nend,\n\n469\n00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:50.240\nthere was a lot of conviction that that was the right thing to do.\n\n470\n00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:58.960\nAnd you're basically owning the end-to-end consumer experience. And we talked\n\n471\n00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:00.000\nabout obsession\n\n472\n00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.760\nearlier. Another thing that I've learned that you're really obsessed about is\n\n473\n00:24:03.760 --> 00:24:04.560\nthe customer,\n\n474\n00:24:04.560 --> 00:24:08.640\nreally understanding the customer, and that you do something that's fairly\n\n475\n00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.440\nunique. You go into\n\n476\n00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:14.960\ncustomers' homes, and you have 40 questions that you ask them. Tell me about\n\n477\n00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:16.560\none visit you had with\n\n478\n00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:22.640\nthe customer that changed your thinking. In the spirit of learning and rele\n\n479\n00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:23.120\narning,\n\n480\n00:24:23.120 --> 00:24:26.310\nyou know, customer obsession is something I really learned into it before I\n\n481\n00:24:26.310 --> 00:24:27.200\ncame to Rocket.\n\n482\n00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:32.230\nAnd that goes back to the founder of Intuit, a guy named Scott Cook. And one of\n\n483\n00:24:32.230 --> 00:24:32.800\nthe things that\n\n484\n00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:37.040\nScott was really big on, he used to do these working sessions, where he'd come\n\n485\n00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:38.720\nand do spend\n\n486\n00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.080\ndays with our product teams and with me in particular. And I am very thankful\n\n487\n00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:44.960\nfor that experience,\n\n488\n00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:50.010\nbecause one principle that Scott talked a lot about that has really become\n\n489\n00:24:50.010 --> 00:24:50.960\ningrained in my thinking\n\n490\n00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:57.890\nis don't trust what people say, trust what they do. And what that means simply\n\n491\n00:24:57.890 --> 00:24:58.880\nis that when you're\n\n492\n00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:03.270\ntrying to solve a customer problem, the power of direct observation is\n\n493\n00:25:03.270 --> 00:25:05.840\neverything. I am not a big\n\n494\n00:25:05.840 --> 00:25:11.200\nfan of generic user research. I'm not a big fan of qualitative surveys and\n\n495\n00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:12.080\nthings like that,\n\n496\n00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:17.200\nbecause there are all kinds of intrinsic biases in how they lead you to\n\n497\n00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:18.560\nincorrect insights about\n\n498\n00:25:18.560 --> 00:25:24.240\nconsumers. The only way to understand a consumer is to go into their home, talk\n\n499\n00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:24.960\nto them deeply\n\n500\n00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:29.770\nabout the problem, ask them deep probing questions, let them talk, and then\n\n501\n00:25:29.770 --> 00:25:31.200\nobserve what they actually\n\n502\n00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:37.920\ndo. And this is where when I was running TurboTax, a lot of learning came my\n\n503\n00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:38.320\nways,\n\n504\n00:25:38.320 --> 00:25:42.980\nbecause we used to do these follow me homes. And that's the only way that you\n\n505\n00:25:42.980 --> 00:25:43.280\nbuild a real\n\n506\n00:25:43.280 --> 00:25:48.130\nempathy. And I remember being in DC doing a follow me home with a lower income\n\n507\n00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:48.560\nfamily.\n\n508\n00:25:48.560 --> 00:25:53.840\nAnd they were talking about the importance of the tax return and the fact that\n\n509\n00:25:53.840 --> 00:25:55.040\nit is the biggest\n\n510\n00:25:55.040 --> 00:26:00.490\npaycheck of the year. And they would talk about pacing the halls at night, not\n\n511\n00:26:00.490 --> 00:26:01.120\nsure if they were\n\n512\n00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:07.070\ngetting a refund or a credit, or whether they would owe taxes. And then they\n\n513\n00:26:07.070 --> 00:26:08.000\nwould walk\n\n514\n00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:12.010\nover this family, I'll never forget this lady walked over to where she kept all\n\n515\n00:26:12.010 --> 00:26:12.720\nof her receipts\n\n516\n00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.920\nand all of her tax documents and couldn't find her W2, and just broke down in\n\n517\n00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:18.720\nthe middle of the\n\n518\n00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:23.380\nconversation. And so if your mission is as important as doing the nation's\n\n519\n00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:25.280\ntaxes or even as I would\n\n520\n00:26:25.280 --> 00:26:29.180\nsay, a huge emission of rockets, which is to create safe, sustainable home\n\n521\n00:26:29.180 --> 00:26:31.440\nownership, without being\n\n522\n00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.100\nin the room to experience that, how do you develop the right kind of empathy?\n\n523\n00:26:36.100 --> 00:26:37.120\nYou have to be where\n\n524\n00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:40.850\nthe consumer is, you have to hear through their own direct words, you have to\n\n525\n00:26:40.850 --> 00:26:41.840\nwatch what they do,\n\n526\n00:26:41.840 --> 00:26:45.920\nnot what they say. And that's where you have the aha moments of where the\n\n527\n00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:47.840\nproblems actually are.\n\n528\n00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:52.480\nThere's a lot of ideas out there around good companies or good problems, but\n\n529\n00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:52.960\none of the biggest\n\n530\n00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.420\nthings that I try to coach product teams on just given my background is, you\n\n531\n00:26:57.420 --> 00:26:58.880\nhave to obsess over\n\n532\n00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:03.810\nthe problem, not the solution. And most people don't understand the problem at\n\n533\n00:27:03.810 --> 00:27:05.520\na deep enough level,\n\n534\n00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:08.980\nand they attack the wrong problem, and they attack it with a very specific\n\n535\n00:27:08.980 --> 00:27:09.680\nsolution.\n\n536\n00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:15.600\nIf you spend 90% of your time understanding what the problem actually is, 10%\n\n537\n00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:16.160\nof your time\n\n538\n00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:20.240\nbuilding five different solutions, I think you're much better off. But that\n\n539\n00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.080\nfeeling of seeing someone\n\n540\n00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:26.930\nweeping over, not knowing where they're going to get their next paycheck, and\n\n541\n00:27:26.930 --> 00:27:28.080\nphysically pacing the\n\n542\n00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:32.520\nfloors is an invaluable experience. And so I'm just, I'm a big believer in\n\n543\n00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:33.760\ndirect observation.\n\n544\n00:27:33.760 --> 00:27:38.160\nI'm a big believer in this concept of follow me homes, deep probing questions,\n\n545\n00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:38.960\nnot what they do,\n\n546\n00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:44.170\nwhat they say. And that's really, I think it's deep into my appreciation for\n\n547\n00:27:44.170 --> 00:27:45.680\ngood product work.\n\n548\n00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:50.710\nHello friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to\n\n549\n00:27:50.710 --> 00:27:51.440\nthe very end of the\n\n550\n00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.200\nepisode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that\n\n551\n00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.080\nhe talks about\n\n552\n00:27:56.080 --> 00:28:00.230\nwith this week's guests. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon\n\n553\n00:28:00.230 --> 00:28:00.560\n.\n\n554\n00:28:00.560 --> 00:28:06.080\nYou know, buying a home is one of the biggest decisions the most people will\n\n555\n00:28:06.080 --> 00:28:06.640\never make.\n\n556\n00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:14.000\nSo when 60% or 62%, I believe it is, of Americans say owning a home that feels\n\n557\n00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.280\nunrealistic. You know,\n\n558\n00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:20.960\nwhat goes on in your mind? Well, I mean, to be honest with you, I look, I've\n\n559\n00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:28.430\nbeen around Fintech products and services for probably 60%, 70% of my career,\n\n560\n00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:29.280\nyou know,\n\n561\n00:28:29.280 --> 00:28:34.480\nfrom PayPal to into it, a little bit of time, a group on and then now Rocket.\n\n562\n00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:35.440\nThat's exactly the\n\n563\n00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:38.730\ntype of thing that motivates me to focus on our mission. And that's why our\n\n564\n00:28:38.730 --> 00:28:39.600\nmission matters.\n\n565\n00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:44.670\nLike homeownership is the bedrock of the American dream, right? It's 20% of the\n\n566\n00:28:44.670 --> 00:28:45.520\nGDP. It's the\n\n567\n00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:50.980\nfoundation of our economy. And it's the way to create generational wealth. I\n\n568\n00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:52.160\nthink we have to defend\n\n569\n00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.120\nthat with our lives. You know, like, that's how much I believe in this mission.\n\n570\n00:28:56.120 --> 00:28:56.960\nBecause I think\n\n571\n00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.910\nat the end of the day, if you can solve that problem, it's a problem worth\n\n572\n00:29:00.910 --> 00:29:02.000\nsolving. You know,\n\n573\n00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.860\nlike, I always think about it as, you know, you've got to fall in love with a\n\n574\n00:29:04.860 --> 00:29:06.080\nbig, big unsolved\n\n575\n00:29:06.080 --> 00:29:11.820\nproblem. And I think a statement like that confirms and validates that it's a\n\n576\n00:29:11.820 --> 00:29:13.440\nbig unsolved problem.\n\n577\n00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:18.720\nAnd if it's a big unsolved problem, that means it's worth solving. I also think\n\n578\n00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.760\nthat part of the\n\n579\n00:29:19.760 --> 00:29:24.110\nreason I came to Rocket is because a company the size of Rocket with access to\n\n580\n00:29:24.110 --> 00:29:24.800\nresources,\n\n581\n00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:29.480\ndistribution, capital is perfectly poised to attack the problem in a bigger way\n\n582\n00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:30.880\n. Of course,\n\n583\n00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.890\nthe homeownership financing journey and, you know, the home search experience\n\n584\n00:29:34.890 --> 00:29:35.840\nand, you know,\n\n585\n00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:38.940\nthe servicing experience, I mean, those are very, very powerful levers to\n\n586\n00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:40.400\nattack that problem.\n\n587\n00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.840\nYou know, if we can build a more integrated experience, if we can eliminate\n\n588\n00:29:44.840 --> 00:29:45.280\nwaste,\n\n589\n00:29:45.280 --> 00:29:50.330\nwe can lower your rate. We can lower the fees that you pay. We can give you a\n\n590\n00:29:50.330 --> 00:29:51.280\nfaster closing.\n\n591\n00:29:51.280 --> 00:29:57.280\nSo I think that we almost have a moral responsibility to step up and fight for\n\n592\n00:29:57.280 --> 00:29:58.640\nhomeownership. That's\n\n593\n00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.960\nthe right thing to do. And I want to fix that problem. That's what that's what\n\n594\n00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:03.520\nI stand for.\n\n595\n00:30:03.520 --> 00:30:06.080\nThat's what my company stands for. And that's what we're here to do.\n\n596\n00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:10.450\nBut you're talking about here is your company really has a noble cause, you\n\n597\n00:30:10.450 --> 00:30:11.280\nknow, and you've\n\n598\n00:30:11.280 --> 00:30:16.680\nbeen in some great companies. You know, how important do you think it is for\n\n599\n00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:18.640\nyou to have a noble cause\n\n600\n00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:25.570\nas a leader? Yeah, look, I think it is the most important thing. And I'm really\n\n601\n00:30:25.570 --> 00:30:26.240\nglad you touched\n\n602\n00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:31.840\non that because I feel like my career journey has meandered around the pursuit\n\n603\n00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:33.040\nof that noble cause.\n\n604\n00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:37.890\nYou know, when I was at PayPal, you see a lot of data. You know, I built the\n\n605\n00:30:37.890 --> 00:30:38.720\nconsumer platform\n\n606\n00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.800\nteam at PayPal. So everything that PayPal does for consumers, the website, the\n\n607\n00:30:42.800 --> 00:30:43.280\nmobile app.\n\n608\n00:30:43.280 --> 00:30:47.440\nAnd so you see a lot of data. We had something like 200 million active users in\n\n609\n00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.320\n80 countries\n\n610\n00:30:48.320 --> 00:30:52.160\nthat are just moving money. So you see a lot of people's financial situations.\n\n611\n00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:57.250\nAnd into it, we did the nation's taxes. You see a lot of data. You really\n\n612\n00:30:57.250 --> 00:30:57.760\nunderstand\n\n613\n00:30:57.760 --> 00:31:02.420\nhow people are living paycheck to paycheck, you know, how investments work, the\n\n614\n00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:02.800\nimpact on\n\n615\n00:31:03.040 --> 00:31:06.640\nthe tax system. And then in between, you know, when you think about the\n\n616\n00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:07.680\nmortgage piece of it,\n\n617\n00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.120\nyou know, you start to just understand all of the all of the different parts of\n\n618\n00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:11.680\nthe financial\n\n619\n00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:16.730\nsystem. And one of the things that that that worried me a little bit is that\n\n620\n00:31:16.730 --> 00:31:17.360\nthere are many\n\n621\n00:31:17.360 --> 00:31:22.010\naspects of the financial system that are predatory in nature. You know, like if\n\n622\n00:31:22.010 --> 00:31:22.800\nyou don't understand\n\n623\n00:31:22.800 --> 00:31:28.720\nhow a credit card works or how compound interest works, you can get yourself in\n\n624\n00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:29.520\na lot of trouble\n\n625\n00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:34.570\nbecause if you, because the way it stacks up is they're sort of designed to\n\n626\n00:31:34.570 --> 00:31:35.280\ntrap you.\n\n627\n00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:41.200\nAnd so, you know, my purpose has always been trying to figure out some aspect\n\n628\n00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:42.320\nof FinTech\n\n629\n00:31:42.320 --> 00:31:46.330\nthat is a worthy cause. I don't think people need more credit cards. I don't\n\n630\n00:31:46.330 --> 00:31:46.960\nthink we need more\n\n631\n00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:50.690\ncredit card debt. I don't think we need more high interest debt, for example.\n\n632\n00:31:50.690 --> 00:31:52.400\nBut a mortgage or a home\n\n633\n00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:57.600\nis an investment in generational wealth. It is an appreciating asset. It is\n\n634\n00:31:57.600 --> 00:31:58.400\nsomething you could pass\n\n635\n00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:02.180\ndown to your children, your children's children, and so on and so forth. So I\n\n636\n00:32:02.180 --> 00:32:04.080\nfeel like my entire\n\n637\n00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:08.740\nlife and my entire career has been in pursuit of that noble cause. And I feel\n\n638\n00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:10.320\nlike I finally found it\n\n639\n00:32:10.320 --> 00:32:14.160\nin mortgage and in home ownership because I actually think all of those other\n\n640\n00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:15.120\nindustries are not\n\n641\n00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:20.480\nintrinsically not noble. But when you really dig at like, why do consumers do\n\n642\n00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.440\nwhat they do,\n\n643\n00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:25.750\nyou start to realize that they do it for home. And the word home is more\n\n644\n00:32:25.750 --> 00:32:26.800\npowerful than just the\n\n645\n00:32:26.800 --> 00:32:32.380\nphysical domicile. It is security. It is safety. It is peace of mind. It's\n\n646\n00:32:32.380 --> 00:32:33.360\nwealth creation.\n\n647\n00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:38.410\nAnd so I love rocket and I love being here because I think the cause that we\n\n648\n00:32:38.410 --> 00:32:39.200\nhave is the most\n\n649\n00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:43.280\nnoble cause in all of FinTech. Yeah, that's great. You know, and you're in this\n\n650\n00:32:43.280 --> 00:32:43.920\nbusiness where you\n\n651\n00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:51.180\nhave so much data. How do you balance the intersection between intuition and\n\n652\n00:32:51.180 --> 00:32:52.640\ndata?\n\n653\n00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:57.360\nYeah, I mean, look, I think it would be foolish to overvalue intuition just\n\n654\n00:32:57.360 --> 00:32:58.320\nbecause human beings\n\n655\n00:32:58.320 --> 00:33:03.170\nare biased creatures. And so the way I look at it is you start with a\n\n656\n00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:05.440\nfoundation of data and evidence\n\n657\n00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:10.100\nand you have to start with an objective viewpoint. And then you layer intuition\n\n658\n00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:10.800\non top of that.\n\n659\n00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:15.440\nBut intuition is not a function of just, I think this or I think that intuition\n\n660\n00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:15.520\nis a\n\n661\n00:33:15.520 --> 00:33:20.330\nculmination of learned experience, right? It's a function of being in\n\n662\n00:33:20.330 --> 00:33:21.760\nsituations and making the\n\n663\n00:33:21.760 --> 00:33:26.870\nwrong decision or having good pattern recognition, right? And it's not a sort\n\n664\n00:33:26.870 --> 00:33:28.240\nof a mystique from my\n\n665\n00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:33.870\nperspective. And so, you know, my viewpoint is you data and evidence 80 to 90%\n\n666\n00:33:33.870 --> 00:33:35.360\nof the time wins\n\n667\n00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:42.060\nall arguments. And then usually intuition adds the 10 to 20% on top of that.\n\n668\n00:33:42.060 --> 00:33:42.640\nThe thing about\n\n669\n00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:47.960\nintuition that I do think is interesting since you bring it up is that I do\n\n670\n00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:48.480\nthink\n\n671\n00:33:49.760 --> 00:33:53.770\nsome of the best products and services in our world, there's a mystique about\n\n672\n00:33:53.770 --> 00:33:54.960\nthem in a sense that\n\n673\n00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.160\nlogic wouldn't prevail or just listening to a customer and saying, hey, this is\n\n674\n00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:04.880\nwhat they say they want. I'm just going to go build that. That will lead you to\n\n675\n00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:06.080\na faster course.\n\n676\n00:34:06.080 --> 00:34:11.130\nIt won't lead you to a car or a spaceship or something like that. So I think\n\n677\n00:34:11.130 --> 00:34:12.240\nintuition plays\n\n678\n00:34:12.240 --> 00:34:17.050\na big role, but I would pair intuition with imagination. And I think that as\n\n679\n00:34:17.050 --> 00:34:18.080\nhuman beings,\n\n680\n00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:23.920\nwe don't get to spend enough time dreaming or daydreaming. You know, and that's\n\n681\n00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.160\nwhy, like,\n\n682\n00:34:24.160 --> 00:34:27.640\neven like the pickleball thing is a good example. You know, it was more\n\n683\n00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:29.360\nimportant just to not be\n\n684\n00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.530\nin the office in a meeting room and just to be in a completely different\n\n685\n00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:33.520\nenvironment dressed\n\n686\n00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:38.180\ndifferently, looking differently, acting differently, being goofy, and to have\n\n687\n00:34:38.180 --> 00:34:40.080\nno expectations whatsoever\n\n688\n00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:44.760\naround, oh, we're going to arrive at some action items or some next steps or it\n\n689\n00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:45.760\nwas just, we're\n\n690\n00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.920\njust going to have fun for a few hours. And that's it. Then we'll just go back.\n\n691\n00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.440\nAnd that's why you have a culture day. You know, it's your company where you\n\n692\n00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:54.160\ndon't allow people\n\n693\n00:34:54.160 --> 00:34:59.210\neven to talk about mortgages. That's correct. Yeah, this is the big deal. Yeah,\n\n694\n00:34:59.210 --> 00:34:59.680\nit's called\n\n695\n00:34:59.680 --> 00:35:04.530\nIsm's Day. We do it every quarter. And all we do is we spend a day just wall\n\n696\n00:35:04.530 --> 00:35:05.760\nowing in our culture.\n\n697\n00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.920\nWe talk about outside examples, we laugh, we cry, we talk about inspiration.\n\n698\n00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:11.760\nAnd it's repetition.\n\n699\n00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:16.810\nYou know, we get 3, 400 team members to go through it. And, you know, our\n\n700\n00:35:16.810 --> 00:35:18.240\nformer CEO,\n\n701\n00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:22.160\nBill Emerson, you know, often calls it bathing in our culture. And I didn't\n\n702\n00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:23.040\ntotally understand it.\n\n703\n00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:26.770\nWell, I'll be honest, when I first came here, I was like, oh, this is cool. But\n\n704\n00:35:26.770 --> 00:35:27.600\nnow three years\n\n705\n00:35:27.600 --> 00:35:32.960\nin, leading these days, it's good for the soul. And I think that that's where\n\n706\n00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:33.600\nyou, you know,\n\n707\n00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:38.650\nthis things like work-life balance to me are also interesting concepts. But\n\n708\n00:35:38.650 --> 00:35:39.520\njust to answer your\n\n709\n00:35:39.520 --> 00:35:42.560\nquestion, you know, I think intuition and imagination plays such an important\n\n710\n00:35:42.560 --> 00:35:42.800\nrole.\n\n711\n00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:46.560\nAnd we need to give ourselves more space for that kind of thing. Because that's\n\n712\n00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:47.600\nwhere real\n\n713\n00:35:47.600 --> 00:35:52.720\ninnovation comes. But it's layered on top of a foundation of data and evidence.\n\n714\n00:35:52.720 --> 00:35:56.960\nBut I didn't want to say one more thing, which is, you know, I get asked a lot\n\n715\n00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:57.680\nabout things like\n\n716\n00:35:57.680 --> 00:36:02.070\nwork-life balance. And how do you achieve it? And look, there's no, there's no\n\n717\n00:36:02.070 --> 00:36:02.720\nreality in which\n\n718\n00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:06.450\nyou can't be honest that, like, of course, you work hard and you think about\n\n719\n00:36:06.450 --> 00:36:07.200\nwork a lot. And,\n\n720\n00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:13.200\nand you care deeply about your work and you find purpose in it. But sometimes I\n\n721\n00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:13.920\nthink people\n\n722\n00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.770\nseparate work and life. And they think that, you know, I work so that I can\n\n723\n00:36:17.770 --> 00:36:19.600\nhave a life or, and the\n\n724\n00:36:19.600 --> 00:36:23.100\npurpose of work is to fulfill my life. And I don't think there's anything\n\n725\n00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:24.480\ninherently wrong with it.\n\n726\n00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.900\nBut I do think sometimes we can trick ourselves into thinking that work is bad\n\n727\n00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:28.560\nand life is good.\n\n728\n00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:33.620\nAnd the purpose of work is to toil and to persevere and to grind. And the\n\n729\n00:36:33.620 --> 00:36:34.800\npurpose of life is to\n\n730\n00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:40.320\nenjoy. And I think that there is a lot of meaning and purpose in work. And I\n\n731\n00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:41.440\nthink if you find\n\n732\n00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:47.990\nvalue in the work that you do or you find ways to appreciate it, it doesn't\n\n733\n00:36:47.990 --> 00:36:49.760\nfeel as hard. It feels\n\n734\n00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:53.770\nmore like life. And the same thing goes for life as well. And so I try to think\n\n735\n00:36:53.770 --> 00:36:54.960\nof these these two\n\n736\n00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:00.500\nas more blended versus separated. You know, Varun, in all companies, everybody\n\n737\n00:37:00.500 --> 00:37:02.000\nlikes to celebrate the\n\n738\n00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:05.920\nbig wins. I mean, obviously that's, it's great when you can have the home runs.\n\n739\n00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:06.880\nBut, but I'm\n\n740\n00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:12.030\ncurious, you know, how do you think about celebrating the smaller moments? I\n\n741\n00:37:12.030 --> 00:37:13.760\nthink you call them at\n\n742\n00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:18.820\nrocket the inches. Look, I think first of all, it's not easy because you got to\n\n743\n00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:19.840\nfind them, right?\n\n744\n00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:24.160\nAnd so I think the most important thing is you have to create a culture that is\n\n745\n00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:24.960\nas inclusive as\n\n746\n00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:29.810\npossible around bringing those micro elements forward. And I'll give you an\n\n747\n00:37:29.810 --> 00:37:31.440\nexample, like every now and\n\n748\n00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:37.140\nthen, you know, I'll get a story from a team member who achieved something or\n\n749\n00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:38.320\ndid something\n\n750\n00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:44.130\nto benefit a client. And the first thing that I try to do is one, I'm very\n\n751\n00:37:44.130 --> 00:37:45.440\nactive. I read everything\n\n752\n00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:49.220\nthat comes my way from my team. I respond to everything directly. I try to be\n\n753\n00:37:49.220 --> 00:37:50.160\nas responsive as\n\n754\n00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:55.210\npossible at Slack or email or text or whatever. But the second thing I do is I\n\n755\n00:37:55.210 --> 00:37:56.000\ntry to widen\n\n756\n00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.180\nevery one of those things. So when someone finds an inch or finds an\n\n757\n00:37:59.180 --> 00:38:02.000\nopportunity, my reply is not\n\n758\n00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:05.730\njust back to them, but I will widen it by copying the top 50 liters in the\n\n759\n00:38:05.730 --> 00:38:07.040\ncompany, the top 300\n\n760\n00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:13.170\nliters in the company. Creating and widening a blast radius around an inch is a\n\n761\n00:38:13.170 --> 00:38:14.480\nreally easy way\n\n762\n00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:19.530\nto increase its significance. And when you do that, over time, you're sending a\n\n763\n00:38:19.530 --> 00:38:20.400\nsignal. You're\n\n764\n00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:24.130\nsending a signal to the organization that I value small things and big things\n\n765\n00:38:24.130 --> 00:38:25.520\nequally. I'm not just\n\n766\n00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:29.590\nthis big idea type person, but you have to just keep doing it. It's one of\n\n767\n00:38:29.590 --> 00:38:30.480\nthose things where\n\n768\n00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.240\nyou can't just do it once and just get credit for it. I think one, you have to\n\n769\n00:38:35.240 --> 00:38:36.000\nbelieve it. And then\n\n770\n00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:41.480\ntwo, you have to practice what you preach. And that concept of repetition, it\n\n771\n00:38:41.480 --> 00:38:42.400\ndoesn't ruin the\n\n772\n00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.680\nprayer. In fact, if anything, it just makes the prayer stronger and stronger.\n\n773\n00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:47.040\nGive me an example\n\n774\n00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:54.880\nof an inch. I'll give you a really funny one. So we had, we had this, we have a\n\n775\n00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.920\ngigantic rocket poster\n\n776\n00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:04.400\nthat was, it was right outside our one campus marches our headquarters. So this\n\n777\n00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:05.040\nthing is like\n\n778\n00:39:05.040 --> 00:39:12.240\n10 stories high and, you know, five stories wide, right? So it's an enormous,\n\n779\n00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.530\nit's like a poster, basically, right? And it usually reflects whatever our\n\n780\n00:39:18.530 --> 00:39:19.360\nmarketing campaign\n\n781\n00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:24.800\nor slogan. So we, we rotate them every two or three months in a freak random\n\n782\n00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:27.520\naccident on a\n\n783\n00:39:27.520 --> 00:39:33.200\nSunday morning, like a gust of wind tore through the middle of it and just\n\n784\n00:39:33.200 --> 00:39:34.080\nchopped it in half.\n\n785\n00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:38.760\nSo that happened at like four, I think it was around, I'm not going to get the\n\n786\n00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:39.040\nexact\n\n787\n00:39:39.040 --> 00:39:41.640\neither. It was around four. I think it happened at like four o'clock in the\n\n788\n00:39:41.640 --> 00:39:42.560\nmorning or something. I'm\n\n789\n00:39:42.560 --> 00:39:49.280\nlike a Sunday morning, right? By four 45 in the morning, I had five emails from\n\n790\n00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.080\nfive team members\n\n791\n00:39:50.080 --> 00:39:55.950\ntelling me that this had happened. By 6 15 AM, we had scheduled a call with our\n\n792\n00:39:55.950 --> 00:39:57.040\nmarketing team\n\n793\n00:39:57.040 --> 00:40:00.340\nsaying, look, there's a giant poster and our logo is ripped at half. This is\n\n794\n00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:01.120\nnot acceptable.\n\n795\n00:40:01.120 --> 00:40:08.800\nBy 10 30 AM, they were on the phone with the company. Now it's Sunday, like we\n\n796\n00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:08.960\ncould\n\n797\n00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.290\nwait. It's honestly like it's not costing us any business. It's not, but it's,\n\n798\n00:40:13.290 --> 00:40:14.160\nit was just pride.\n\n799\n00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:18.930\nIt was like, look, this is our city. This is our town. This is our company. And\n\n800\n00:40:18.930 --> 00:40:20.640\nthis is unacceptable.\n\n801\n00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:26.180\nAnd by the way, from from 5 AM to 11 AM, the number of of inbox inquiries that\n\n802\n00:40:26.180 --> 00:40:26.640\nI'm getting\n\n803\n00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:31.100\nhas now forced multiplied to 50 to 80 of them. So every, every time a team\n\n804\n00:40:31.100 --> 00:40:31.840\nmember just goes by,\n\n805\n00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:35.260\nthey're like, and they have the courage to send it directly to the CEO, which I\n\n806\n00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:36.080\nthink is pretty\n\n807\n00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:40.870\neffing amazing, right? Like just to have that kind of, and I responded to every\n\n808\n00:40:40.870 --> 00:40:41.680\nsingle one very,\n\n809\n00:40:41.680 --> 00:40:47.320\nvery quickly. By the painting companies, not by by 1 PM, we called another\n\n810\n00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:48.880\nspecialist, we got it.\n\n811\n00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:53.520\nAnd by, by the end of that day, or the, maybe I think early the following day,\n\n812\n00:40:53.520 --> 00:40:54.640\nthe poster is now,\n\n813\n00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:58.060\nwe had already come up with the plans and what to replace it. Like now in any\n\n814\n00:40:58.060 --> 00:40:59.040\nother normal company,\n\n815\n00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:03.290\nthat kind of thing would have could have, it just would take weeks. It would\n\n816\n00:41:03.290 --> 00:41:04.720\njust take weeks or months.\n\n817\n00:41:04.720 --> 00:41:10.080\nAnd, but we noticed it, we found it, we heard about it, we fixed it. And you\n\n818\n00:41:10.080 --> 00:41:11.200\nknow, that kind of thing\n\n819\n00:41:11.200 --> 00:41:16.320\nhappens when there's an issue in bathrooms, that kind of thing happens if there\n\n820\n00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:17.680\n's just, so we are\n\n821\n00:41:17.680 --> 00:41:22.000\nconstantly looking for little inches. And every time, and team members are very\n\n822\n00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:22.960\nencouraged to just\n\n823\n00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:26.880\nsurface inches, send us feedback, send us a direction. If you notice something,\n\n824\n00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:27.760\nyou see it,\n\n825\n00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:31.280\nyou say it, we'll solve it. And so that was just one interesting thing.\n\n826\n00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:36.720\nI love, I love that example. And, and it, it shows pride. And when you start\n\n827\n00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:37.680\ncommunicating that\n\n828\n00:41:37.680 --> 00:41:42.120\nacross the organization, you know, that, that builds, builds ahead of steam\n\n829\n00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:43.680\nthat takes you into all,\n\n830\n00:41:43.680 --> 00:41:47.410\nall other areas. Now, that's an inch, but you know, when you think about the\n\n831\n00:41:47.410 --> 00:41:48.800\nbigger ideas that are\n\n832\n00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:53.240\nout there, I know you've invested well over a half billion dollars into, into\n\n833\n00:41:53.240 --> 00:41:54.960\nAI. What's the\n\n834\n00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:00.880\nbiggest leadership decision you've made? Because AI changed your business, not\n\n835\n00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:02.160\njust the technology\n\n836\n00:42:02.160 --> 00:42:08.140\nthat you have. When you have two companies coming together, you have to make a\n\n837\n00:42:08.140 --> 00:42:08.800\ndecision\n\n838\n00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.560\non which technology stack you're, you're going to leverage. And you know that\n\n839\n00:42:12.560 --> 00:42:13.200\nthere's no right\n\n840\n00:42:13.200 --> 00:42:19.280\nanswer, because it's a place where it's 51, I would call it 51 49 decisions.\n\n841\n00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:20.400\nYou know, if you're right,\n\n842\n00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:25.120\nyou're only right by a hair. If you're wrong, you're not that wrong. You know,\n\n843\n00:42:25.120 --> 00:42:27.360\nand so, but, but, so,\n\n844\n00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.010\nyou know, like thinking about bringing our servicing organization together, we\n\n845\n00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:32.000\nhave Mr. Cooper,\n\n846\n00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:36.310\nwhich is the largest servicer in the world, operational machine, you have\n\n847\n00:42:36.310 --> 00:42:37.360\nrocket servicing,\n\n848\n00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:43.150\nwhich is J.D. Power award winning, absolutely empathetic, loving, protecting\n\n849\n00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:44.080\namazing our clients,\n\n850\n00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:48.770\nslightly different cultures, similar end goal, but two completely different\n\n851\n00:42:48.770 --> 00:42:49.840\nparadigms. And you\n\n852\n00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:54.190\nhave to decide which technology platform am I going to use? How are we going to\n\n853\n00:42:54.190 --> 00:42:54.720\nintegrate the\n\n854\n00:42:54.720 --> 00:42:59.530\nteams? And it's one of those examples, I would say is like a 51 49 decision,\n\n855\n00:42:59.530 --> 00:43:00.720\nbecause both parties\n\n856\n00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:04.140\nhave strengths, and they're trying to figure out how to optimize between the\n\n857\n00:43:04.140 --> 00:43:05.440\ntwo, but you can't use\n\n858\n00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:09.770\ntwo technology platforms, you have to use one. And so we made a decision to use\n\n859\n00:43:09.770 --> 00:43:11.040\n, you know, one of\n\n860\n00:43:11.040 --> 00:43:14.560\nthe technology platforms, you know, I don't need to go into the detail there,\n\n861\n00:43:14.560 --> 00:43:15.600\nbut that, but what\n\n862\n00:43:15.600 --> 00:43:19.330\nhappens as an implication of that is for half of the, the folks that are\n\n863\n00:43:19.330 --> 00:43:20.880\ninvolved in that decision,\n\n864\n00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.890\nor have to, you know, execute against that decision, it's not what they want.\n\n865\n00:43:24.890 --> 00:43:26.080\nIt's not what they\n\n866\n00:43:26.080 --> 00:43:30.390\nwould prefer. It creates, you know, a huge amount of change, transformation\n\n867\n00:43:30.390 --> 00:43:31.920\njourney, cultural journey.\n\n868\n00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:37.040\nAnd those are just tough, because you know, the consequences of your decision\n\n869\n00:43:37.040 --> 00:43:38.880\nis pain for your\n\n870\n00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:43.710\nteam members. There is no way in which you can just sugarcoat it or just make\n\n871\n00:43:43.710 --> 00:43:44.640\nit sound like,\n\n872\n00:43:44.640 --> 00:43:48.650\noh, this is just going to be awesome. It's going to be difficult. And the only\n\n873\n00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:49.680\nthing that you can do\n\n874\n00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:54.730\nin that situation is just embrace your team as much as possible. You have to\n\n875\n00:43:54.730 --> 00:43:55.200\nstep up the\n\n876\n00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:57.620\nnumber of times that you're walking the floors, you have to step up the\n\n877\n00:43:57.620 --> 00:43:58.640\ncommunication, you have to\n\n878\n00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:02.490\nover communicate, over communicate, over communicate. You have to have more\n\n879\n00:44:02.490 --> 00:44:03.520\nfeedback loops in the\n\n880\n00:44:03.520 --> 00:44:06.990\norganization, because you know there are going to be more issues than you\n\n881\n00:44:06.990 --> 00:44:10.080\nanticipated. And you\n\n882\n00:44:10.080 --> 00:44:15.440\nhave to be willing to apologize and willing to just basically say, look, this\n\n883\n00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.160\nis the direction,\n\n884\n00:44:16.160 --> 00:44:21.380\nthis is the issue. You know, we fell down here, we fell down there, and you\n\n885\n00:44:21.380 --> 00:44:22.240\nhave to also\n\n886\n00:44:22.240 --> 00:44:27.840\nbe willing to stand up for why you did what you did. And so that's the nature\n\n887\n00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:28.560\nof big decision\n\n888\n00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:31.650\nmaking, you know, servicing being a big one. You know, Rocket has been the\n\n889\n00:44:31.650 --> 00:44:33.120\nbiggest originator.\n\n890\n00:44:33.120 --> 00:44:37.780\nWe bought the biggest servicer. So now we have strength in both, but you know,\n\n891\n00:44:37.780 --> 00:44:38.240\nbringing these\n\n892\n00:44:38.240 --> 00:44:42.560\norganizations together is difficult. You know, it's, it's not just you believe\n\n893\n00:44:42.560 --> 00:44:43.200\nin the strategy\n\n894\n00:44:43.200 --> 00:44:46.290\nin the culture, therefore you'll be fine. You're going to make mistakes. You\n\n895\n00:44:46.290 --> 00:44:47.920\nhave to build a system\n\n896\n00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:53.150\nthat is designed for failure. And it has fault tolerance built into it. It has\n\n897\n00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:53.920\nfeedback loops\n\n898\n00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:57.340\nbuilt into it. And then you just have to over communicate like you've never\n\n899\n00:44:57.340 --> 00:44:57.920\ndone before.\n\n900\n00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:03.840\nHow is AI changing the way you lead? You know, how do you use AI yourself in\n\n901\n00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:04.720\nterms of leadership?\n\n902\n00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:08.330\nBecause you're you're obviously an expert in it. Yeah, no, I mean, look, I\n\n903\n00:45:08.330 --> 00:45:10.240\nthink I'm I would say\n\n904\n00:45:10.240 --> 00:45:13.890\nI'm nowhere near an expert in it. I think I think just I'm just more of a\n\n905\n00:45:13.890 --> 00:45:15.280\nstudent than ever before.\n\n906\n00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.760\nBut I think there's a couple of different things that I do. I mean, I have I\n\n907\n00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:20.560\nhave my own setup at\n\n908\n00:45:20.560 --> 00:45:26.480\nhome with Cloud Code with cursor. And actually, my son, I he's eight years old,\n\n909\n00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:27.840\nbut we have little\n\n910\n00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.880\nprojects and things that we do just around vibe coding, where you just provide\n\n911\n00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:32.320\ninstructional\n\n912\n00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:38.210\neducation and to to the system. And you try to get it to help you build apps or\n\n913\n00:45:38.210 --> 00:45:39.440\nideas. So that's\n\n914\n00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:44.290\nkind of just more of a curiosity learning kind of fun stuff. I use it a lot in\n\n915\n00:45:44.290 --> 00:45:45.360\ncommunication.\n\n916\n00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:51.060\nAnd so one of the things that I have stopped using it for is that, you know, AI\n\n917\n00:45:51.060 --> 00:45:51.680\nused to be\n\n918\n00:45:51.680 --> 00:45:56.340\nable to help you write much, much better. And I like writing and I like sort of\n\n919\n00:45:56.340 --> 00:45:56.960\nthe uniqueness\n\n920\n00:45:56.960 --> 00:46:01.340\nof writing. But cross checking your writing against good writing is something\n\n921\n00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:02.240\nthat AI is just\n\n922\n00:46:02.240 --> 00:46:05.200\na vast repository of content. So I do leverage it a little bit for that.\n\n923\n00:46:05.200 --> 00:46:10.320\nAlthough lately, I have to say that I'm not as much anymore because it starts\n\n924\n00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.040\nto make everything\n\n925\n00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:15.170\nsound the same. I think there's this term AI slot where everyone kind of is\n\n926\n00:46:15.170 --> 00:46:16.000\nsaying the same\n\n927\n00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.440\nbullshit all over the place and you see it all over and you see it all over.\n\n928\n00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:20.160\nLike everyone is\n\n929\n00:46:20.160 --> 00:46:24.820\njust they all sound the same. And I find it quite irritating. And so I started\n\n930\n00:46:24.820 --> 00:46:26.000\nlike really reducing\n\n931\n00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:32.080\nusing it for that kind of thing. Where I do find AI very helpful is an analysis\n\n932\n00:46:32.080 --> 00:46:32.160\nof\n\n933\n00:46:32.160 --> 00:46:36.620\nvery complicated decisions. Like if we were to acquire a company or if we were\n\n934\n00:46:36.620 --> 00:46:37.840\nto do a partnership\n\n935\n00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:43.610\nor if we were to think about an organizational change or we were able to or we\n\n936\n00:46:43.610 --> 00:46:44.560\nhave a big decision\n\n937\n00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:52.240\npivot around a strategic decision. Help me use historical learning of other\n\n938\n00:46:52.240 --> 00:46:52.960\nexamples where\n\n939\n00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:56.160\ncompanies have been faced with that kind of decision and then assess it for\n\n940\n00:46:56.160 --> 00:46:57.360\nthings like pros and cons,\n\n941\n00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:02.590\nlike very, very complicated decision making. I find it extraordinarily helpful\n\n942\n00:47:02.590 --> 00:47:03.680\nfor that.\n\n943\n00:47:03.680 --> 00:47:11.190\nBecause you can combine elements of philosophy, spirituality, as well as kind\n\n944\n00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:12.240\nof more concrete,\n\n945\n00:47:12.240 --> 00:47:18.800\nhistorical patterns to arrive at very interesting ways of framing decisions or\n\n946\n00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:19.600\nthinking about\n\n947\n00:47:19.600 --> 00:47:25.360\nvery complicated aspects of running a company. And I find it super helpful for\n\n948\n00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:26.080\nthings like that.\n\n949\n00:47:26.080 --> 00:47:32.160\nJust because it has such good reasoning ability and when you train it a little\n\n950\n00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:33.120\nbit on how you think\n\n951\n00:47:33.120 --> 00:47:36.540\nand how you act and what you like, what you don't like, what kind of books you\n\n952\n00:47:36.540 --> 00:47:37.680\nlike to read,\n\n953\n00:47:37.680 --> 00:47:44.000\nwhat kind of philosophical practices you believe in. It's a very good kind of a\n\n954\n00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:44.320\ncoach\n\n955\n00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:50.080\nto help you in, I would say, like, very complicated decision making.\n\n956\n00:47:50.080 --> 00:47:55.440\nYou know, shifting gears for a second here, you wrote a really incredibly\n\n957\n00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:56.640\nbeautiful post to honor\n\n958\n00:47:56.640 --> 00:48:03.040\nyour parents around the 4th of July. You know, share a little bit about that\n\n959\n00:48:03.040 --> 00:48:07.600\nand what made you do it.\n\n960\n00:48:07.600 --> 00:48:14.530\nYeah, it's a great question. I will say at first I was a little bit hesitant. I\n\n961\n00:48:14.530 --> 00:48:14.800\n'm not\n\n962\n00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:19.020\nthe most extroverted person in the world and I don't usually write posts like\n\n963\n00:48:19.020 --> 00:48:19.360\nthat.\n\n964\n00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:24.000\nBut there were a couple of things that happened. I think one was, I just, I did\n\n965\n00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.880\nget my citizenship\n\n966\n00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:31.810\nand it was a very, very long journey. You know, I grew up in Canada. I did all\n\n967\n00:48:31.810 --> 00:48:32.400\nmy school there,\n\n968\n00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.430\nbut I spent basically the entirety of my professional career in the US. And it\n\n969\n00:48:37.430 --> 00:48:38.320\n's not been easy.\n\n970\n00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:41.150\nYou know, the experience for a citizen and the experience for a non-citizen are\n\n971\n00:48:41.150 --> 00:48:42.320\nnot the same.\n\n972\n00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.760\nAnd if you haven't been a citizen, that's the only way you would know what I'm\n\n973\n00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:46.400\ntalking about.\n\n974\n00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:50.130\nIt's a little harder to get in and out of the country. You know, there are\n\n975\n00:48:50.130 --> 00:48:51.040\nthings. So it was a\n\n976\n00:48:51.040 --> 00:48:55.700\nbig accomplishment in and of itself. But the two things happened. I think one\n\n977\n00:48:55.700 --> 00:48:57.280\nwas, it was around\n\n978\n00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:00.700\nthe 4th of July and America was turning 250. It was a pretty important\n\n979\n00:49:00.700 --> 00:49:01.680\nmilestone event.\n\n980\n00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:06.960\nBut the most important thing was for me, I just felt like I had not expressed\n\n981\n00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:07.760\nmy gratitude\n\n982\n00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:11.760\nproperly to my parents. I just felt like I grew up in a very loving childhood.\n\n983\n00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:15.900\nI grew up with parents who were infinitely supportive, who encouraged me to\n\n984\n00:49:15.900 --> 00:49:16.800\npick risks,\n\n985\n00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:21.970\nwho never judged me for my actions, which has gently kind of, you know, showed\n\n986\n00:49:21.970 --> 00:49:22.720\nme the way,\n\n987\n00:49:22.720 --> 00:49:29.040\nwho have very strong moral fiber and have just sacrificed a lot. And, you know,\n\n988\n00:49:29.040 --> 00:49:34.960\nwhat was interesting is I, it wasn't really even my idea to do it. It was\n\n989\n00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:35.600\nactually my,\n\n990\n00:49:35.600 --> 00:49:39.520\nI give a lot of credit to my communications, my PR teams, because they know my\n\n991\n00:49:39.520 --> 00:49:40.560\ncharacter,\n\n992\n00:49:40.560 --> 00:49:44.320\nthey do, we do a lot of projects together, and they were like, \"Vrun, we know\n\n993\n00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:45.200\nyou pretty well.\n\n994\n00:49:45.200 --> 00:49:48.400\nYou got to do this. This is you. This is your, this is you talking about\n\n995\n00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:49.680\nsomething you believe,\n\n996\n00:49:49.680 --> 00:49:54.330\nyou care about, you need to do.\" And I was like, \"Wow.\" I'm like, \"Yeah.\" But\n\n997\n00:49:54.330 --> 00:49:54.640\nit's like,\n\n998\n00:49:54.640 --> 00:49:57.710\nkind of, it's a little bit vulnerable. It's a little bit getting yourself out\n\n999\n00:49:57.710 --> 00:49:58.160\nthere.\n\n1000\n00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:04.860\nAnd when I wrote it, I just felt, when it was completed, I was like, \"This is\n\n1001\n00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.280\nabsolutely the\n\n1002\n00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:10.880\nright thing to do.\" I also felt like it was important to share that, share that\n\n1003\n00:50:10.880 --> 00:50:11.840\n, so that other folks\n\n1004\n00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:18.320\nwho have gone through the same kind of thing would feel the resonance. And I\n\n1005\n00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:18.960\ndidn't expect\n\n1006\n00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:24.480\nthat post to go as viral as it did. But what was really cool, once writing it,\n\n1007\n00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:25.440\none, it was just,\n\n1008\n00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:30.490\nit needed to be said. And I owe my parents that gratitude. So it was just that\n\n1009\n00:50:30.490 --> 00:50:33.840\nimpetus was felt\n\n1010\n00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:37.680\nvery strongly within me, a little bit of nudging for my team to just get me\n\n1011\n00:50:37.680 --> 00:50:38.240\nover the edge,\n\n1012\n00:50:38.240 --> 00:50:44.940\ndefinitely helped as well. And then just a need to want to feel like, you know,\n\n1013\n00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:45.440\nthis story,\n\n1014\n00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:48.960\nit was, what was interesting actually is just looking at the engagement with\n\n1015\n00:50:48.960 --> 00:50:49.680\nthe post. I just\n\n1016\n00:50:49.680 --> 00:50:53.460\nfelt like I was walking through a timeline of my whole life, and like all the\n\n1017\n00:50:53.460 --> 00:50:54.080\nway back from\n\n1018\n00:50:54.080 --> 00:50:59.180\nchildhood, through high school, through college, through like, like folks from\n\n1019\n00:50:59.180 --> 00:51:00.560\nevery walk of my life\n\n1020\n00:51:02.080 --> 00:51:05.980\nseemed to have seen it or interacted with it, which was a little uncomfortable\n\n1021\n00:51:05.980 --> 00:51:07.040\nat first. But in\n\n1022\n00:51:07.040 --> 00:51:11.690\nretrospect, I'm just glad I did it. And my parents were also, were pretty happy\n\n1023\n00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:12.640\n. I was,\n\n1024\n00:51:12.640 --> 00:51:16.210\nI was actually with them the night before it launched, and I was like talking\n\n1025\n00:51:16.210 --> 00:51:17.200\nto my dad about\n\n1026\n00:51:17.200 --> 00:51:22.030\nmoving to Canada, and just what necessitated it. And he shared some things with\n\n1027\n00:51:22.030 --> 00:51:22.640\nme around just\n\n1028\n00:51:22.640 --> 00:51:25.980\nsome details that I didn't even really understand. And you moved from India,\n\n1029\n00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:26.960\nright? You know?\n\n1030\n00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:32.080\nI did. Yeah, I was born in there. I was born in New Delhi. I lived there until\n\n1031\n00:51:32.080 --> 00:51:32.480\nI was about\n\n1032\n00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:37.680\neight years old, and then relocated to Toronto. You know, this has been so much\n\n1033\n00:51:37.680 --> 00:51:38.720\nfun, and I want\n\n1034\n00:51:38.720 --> 00:51:42.450\nto have a little more of my lightning round of questions. So you're ready to go\n\n1035\n00:51:42.450 --> 00:51:43.120\n? All right,\n\n1036\n00:51:43.120 --> 00:51:48.530\nlet's do it. The three words that best describe you. Visionary, focused, normal\n\n1037\n00:51:48.530 --> 00:51:49.040\n.\n\n1038\n00:51:49.040 --> 00:51:53.080\nIf you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Albert\n\n1039\n00:51:53.080 --> 00:51:54.480\nEinstein.\n\n1040\n00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:59.680\nYour biggest pet peeve. Passive aggressiveness. The one habit that's made you\n\n1041\n00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:01.520\nas successful as you\n\n1042\n00:52:01.520 --> 00:52:06.870\nare. Learning mindset. Something about living in India as a kid, you still have\n\n1043\n00:52:06.870 --> 00:52:08.080\nfond memories of.\n\n1044\n00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:13.680\nFirecrackers and Diwali. Besides the snow, the most surprising thing about\n\n1045\n00:52:13.680 --> 00:52:14.240\nmoving your\n\n1046\n00:52:14.240 --> 00:52:19.630\nfamilies from Southern California to Detroit. The warmth of Midwest hospitality\n\n1047\n00:52:19.630 --> 00:52:20.480\n. The best\n\n1048\n00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:25.530\nDetroit foods. Lafayette hot dog. What's something you've been curious about\n\n1049\n00:52:25.530 --> 00:52:25.760\nlately\n\n1050\n00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:31.040\nthat has absolutely nothing to do with work? Stoicism and Marcus Aurelius.\n\n1051\n00:52:31.040 --> 00:52:37.120\nThe one thing you do just for you? Pick a wall. Besides your family and friends\n\n1052\n00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:37.200\n,\n\n1053\n00:52:37.200 --> 00:52:41.610\nwhat's your most prized possession? Well, I'm going to say my two little dogs\n\n1054\n00:52:41.610 --> 00:52:42.320\nat home.\n\n1055\n00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:49.440\nIf I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Hip hop and R&B circa\n\n1056\n00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:50.560\n2000s.\n\n1057\n00:52:50.560 --> 00:52:54.960\nWhat's something about you a few people would know? Introverted. You've\n\n1058\n00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.920\nmentioned that you work\n\n1059\n00:52:55.920 --> 00:53:01.920\nout every day. Is there another daily ritual that you have that you never miss?\n\n1060\n00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:09.840\nI would say getting grounded where you step outside and you place your feet\n\n1061\n00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:10.640\nbarefoot on the\n\n1062\n00:53:10.640 --> 00:53:15.410\nground just to get grounded in the earth. Well, we're out of the lightning\n\n1063\n00:53:15.410 --> 00:53:15.760\nround.\n\n1064\n00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:21.280\nI just have a few more questions and then I'll let you go. Now you've been CEO\n\n1065\n00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:22.000\nfor three years.\n\n1066\n00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:28.400\nWhen you come into a new company, I don't care who you are, you got anxiety.\n\n1067\n00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:31.760\nHow did you deal\n\n1068\n00:53:31.760 --> 00:53:40.400\nwith the anxiety of being the new CEO of Rocket? Are you over it? Are you now a\n\n1069\n00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:46.970\nveteran? No, I would say not at all. I think the beauty of experience is there\n\n1070\n00:53:46.970 --> 00:53:47.840\n's a healthy amount\n\n1071\n00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.700\nof a little bit of anxiety that's good for you. I think it pushes you to do\n\n1072\n00:53:50.700 --> 00:53:51.360\nmore things,\n\n1073\n00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:55.840\nbut it definitely happened. I mean, look, new to mortgage, new to this company,\n\n1074\n00:53:55.840 --> 00:54:01.120\nextremely visionary charismatic leaders that have occupied the seat before you.\n\n1075\n00:54:01.120 --> 00:54:07.280\nExpectations, unknowns, I mean, you faced it all. I think the most important\n\n1076\n00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:08.240\nthing is to just be\n\n1077\n00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:13.290\nwilling to be vulnerable with yourself and just say that where I am is where I\n\n1078\n00:54:13.290 --> 00:54:13.920\n'm supposed to be\n\n1079\n00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:18.720\nand what's happening right now is exactly what's supposed to be happening.\n\n1080\n00:54:18.720 --> 00:54:23.770\nAnd I think continuing to have that kind of self-reinforcing mantra is just a\n\n1081\n00:54:23.770 --> 00:54:25.040\ngood thing because I\n\n1082\n00:54:25.040 --> 00:54:29.280\nlearned a long time ago that if you argue with reality, you're going to lose\n\n1083\n00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:30.640\n100% of the time.\n\n1084\n00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:36.000\nAnd so the more you can just focus on that, the better things are. I think the\n\n1085\n00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:36.560\nmost important\n\n1086\n00:54:36.560 --> 00:54:41.610\nthing I'd also say is just basic things like sleep. If you sleep well and get a\n\n1087\n00:54:41.610 --> 00:54:42.640\ngood night's sleep,\n\n1088\n00:54:42.640 --> 00:54:50.320\nsleep is the most, I would say, remarkable combatant to anxiety. And vice versa\n\n1089\n00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:50.480\nbecause\n\n1090\n00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:53.930\nwhen you're anxious, you can't sleep. And so... I was going to say sometimes\n\n1091\n00:54:53.930 --> 00:54:54.480\nthey don't work.\n\n1092\n00:54:54.480 --> 00:55:00.800\nYour nighttime and daytime routine are very, very important for sleep, I think.\n\n1093\n00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:01.680\nAnd so sleep\n\n1094\n00:55:01.680 --> 00:55:05.520\nhas sort of become almost like the most important thing to try to figure out.\n\n1095\n00:55:06.240 --> 00:55:11.430\nAnd Veron, how do you think about leadership at home? You mentioned your eight-\n\n1096\n00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:12.080\nyear-old son\n\n1097\n00:55:12.080 --> 00:55:18.350\nthat you guys get together and solve problems together. How do you lead at home\n\n1098\n00:55:18.350 --> 00:55:18.480\n?\n\n1099\n00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:25.840\nYeah, look, I think I'm a huge work in progress. And I think the big thing is\n\n1100\n00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:27.200\njust you shouldn't\n\n1101\n00:55:27.200 --> 00:55:31.040\nfeel like you have to lead at home. I think you have to sometimes allow\n\n1102\n00:55:31.040 --> 00:55:33.520\nyourself to be led.\n\n1103\n00:55:34.160 --> 00:55:38.350\nAnd I think the most important thing is what your family wants and needs at any\n\n1104\n00:55:38.350 --> 00:55:38.880\ngiven time.\n\n1105\n00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:42.480\nI think it's very easy to go home. And by the way, I struggle with this. I'm\n\n1106\n00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:42.880\nhugely\n\n1107\n00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:47.540\na work in progress and to make the world about you and to say, hey, here's what\n\n1108\n00:55:47.540 --> 00:55:48.240\nhappened at work\n\n1109\n00:55:48.240 --> 00:55:54.000\nand me and me and this and that because you're full of a lot of stuff you're\n\n1110\n00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:55.680\nbursting. And\n\n1111\n00:55:55.680 --> 00:56:01.120\nyou want to go home and you want to basically unload whether it's something\n\n1112\n00:56:01.120 --> 00:56:01.760\nthat happened or\n\n1113\n00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:05.680\nsomething you need help with or something you need advice with. But I think the\n\n1114\n00:56:05.680 --> 00:56:07.120\nmore I've sort of\n\n1115\n00:56:07.120 --> 00:56:12.170\ntried to mature in this journey, the more important I think it is to not do\n\n1116\n00:56:12.170 --> 00:56:13.040\nthat and to go home and\n\n1117\n00:56:13.040 --> 00:56:19.040\nlisten and to go home and appreciate and to go home and detach in a way that\n\n1118\n00:56:19.040 --> 00:56:20.480\nyou're just present\n\n1119\n00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:24.640\nas much as possible. So those are probably the three things that I try to do. I\n\n1120\n00:56:24.640 --> 00:56:25.440\ndon't consider\n\n1121\n00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:31.280\nthem leading. I consider them more ways of allowing the family and the family\n\n1122\n00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:31.680\nenvironment.\n\n1123\n00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:36.530\nTo lead, but try to be as present as possible. Try not to bring, you know,\n\n1124\n00:56:36.530 --> 00:56:37.680\nworkplace situations,\n\n1125\n00:56:37.680 --> 00:56:43.630\nyou know, home with you and be as consistent as possible knowing that you won't\n\n1126\n00:56:43.630 --> 00:56:44.080\nget it right\n\n1127\n00:56:44.080 --> 00:56:51.120\nall the time. How did you meet your wife and what role does she play in and\n\n1128\n00:56:51.120 --> 00:56:55.840\nyour CEO adventure?\n\n1129\n00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:59.280\nYou know, when I talk about the 51-49, I would give her the 51.\n\n1130\n00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:04.710\nWe met a long time ago. We actually met in Seattle when I first started working\n\n1131\n00:57:04.710 --> 00:57:05.040\nthere.\n\n1132\n00:57:05.040 --> 00:57:10.090\nYou know, she is the brains of the operation. I think she is talented, hard\n\n1133\n00:57:10.090 --> 00:57:10.480\nworking.\n\n1134\n00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:17.180\nAnd, you know, I think most of anything that I have ever done or achieved, I\n\n1135\n00:57:17.180 --> 00:57:19.040\nowe it all to her.\n\n1136\n00:57:19.040 --> 00:57:25.300\nAnd I think, you know, we met in 2005. We started living together. We dated for\n\n1137\n00:57:25.300 --> 00:57:26.160\nquite a long time.\n\n1138\n00:57:26.160 --> 00:57:36.370\nWe got married around 2012 or so. And, yeah, I mean, she and my son are kind of\n\n1139\n00:57:36.370 --> 00:57:36.960\nthe center of my\n\n1140\n00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:42.320\nuniverse. And it's why you do what you do. You know, you start to realize that,\n\n1141\n00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:42.800\nyou know,\n\n1142\n00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:46.400\nyour own personal significance is dwarfed and the significance that you can\n\n1143\n00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:47.200\ncreate for your\n\n1144\n00:57:47.200 --> 00:57:52.320\nfamily. And it represents your purpose. They are your home in a deeper sense.\n\n1145\n00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:53.040\nThey're actually,\n\n1146\n00:57:53.040 --> 00:57:57.200\nyou know, traveling right now. And so you can feel the physical difference when\n\n1147\n00:57:57.200 --> 00:57:58.480\nthey're not near you.\n\n1148\n00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.440\nAnd, yeah, thank you for asking.\n\n1149\n00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:06.800\nOne of the things that I picked up from this conversation is that, you know,\n\n1150\n00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:08.080\nand I had this,\n\n1151\n00:58:08.080 --> 00:58:12.000\nhopefully myself, like, you know, I just love the fact that the best thing\n\n1152\n00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:13.200\nabout business was the\n\n1153\n00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:18.050\nunfinished business. You know, it's that you're never, the journey's never over\n\n1154\n00:58:18.050 --> 00:58:19.280\n. You never,\n\n1155\n00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:22.720\nyou've never mastered anything. There's always something else that you got to\n\n1156\n00:58:22.720 --> 00:58:24.640\ngo after.\n\n1157\n00:58:24.640 --> 00:58:29.680\nWhat do you see as your life's unfinished business?\n\n1158\n00:58:29.680 --> 00:58:35.280\nLife has always changed in ways that I would never have been able to expect.\n\n1159\n00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:40.510\nAnd if you had asked me 20 years ago, would I be in, you know, working at\n\n1160\n00:58:40.510 --> 00:58:41.280\nPayPal, I would have\n\n1161\n00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:44.240\nsaid, no, if you asked me, you know, would I have gotten to Microsoft and\n\n1162\n00:58:44.240 --> 00:58:45.280\nSeattle? I would have said,\n\n1163\n00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:49.060\nno, if you had asked, you know, do you see yourself working on tax software? I\n\n1164\n00:58:49.060 --> 00:58:49.360\nwould have said,\n\n1165\n00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:54.480\ndefinitely no. And I certainly didn't see myself, you know, many years ago\n\n1166\n00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:55.440\nbeing in the Midwest,\n\n1167\n00:58:55.440 --> 00:59:02.720\nbeing a part of Rocket. And so, you know, my, maybe, maybe my answer to that\n\n1168\n00:59:02.720 --> 00:59:03.440\nquestion is,\n\n1169\n00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:10.560\nlearning to be at peace with the flow of life would be the unfinished business\n\n1170\n00:59:10.560 --> 00:59:11.360\nand just being\n\n1171\n00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:17.840\nokay with it versus trying to oversteer it and over control it. Because life is\n\n1172\n00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:18.480\nwonderful if\n\n1173\n00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:22.130\nyou just sit back and observe it for what it is. But sometimes the belief\n\n1174\n00:59:22.130 --> 00:59:23.360\nsystems that we place\n\n1175\n00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:27.670\nupon it are exactly the things that can constrain us from achieving our\n\n1176\n00:59:27.670 --> 00:59:28.960\npotential. And so,\n\n1177\n00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:33.710\nsometimes the best answer to things is just release the tiller and let the boat\n\n1178\n00:59:33.710 --> 00:59:34.400\nsteer itself.\n\n1179\n00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:38.240\nAnd don't worry, because where you're going is where you're supposed to be\n\n1180\n00:59:38.240 --> 00:59:39.520\ngoing. And it's going\n\n1181\n00:59:39.520 --> 00:59:45.040\nto be wonderful. What do you hope people say someday about the impact that you\n\n1182\n00:59:45.040 --> 00:59:45.520\n're\n\n1183\n00:59:45.520 --> 00:59:54.210\nhaving at Rocket and will have at Rocket? I don't know, you know, I don't think\n\n1184\n00:59:54.210 --> 00:59:54.880\nabout that kind of\n\n1185\n00:59:54.880 --> 01:00:00.560\nthing too much, like, you know, legacy and being remembered. I would hope that\n\n1186\n01:00:00.560 --> 01:00:01.360\nin some ways you\n\n1187\n01:00:01.360 --> 01:00:06.560\njust leave things better than when you found it. And that simple thing, I think\n\n1188\n01:00:06.560 --> 01:00:07.680\n, would be something\n\n1189\n01:00:07.680 --> 01:00:14.640\nthat I think would give me gratitude and joy. Okay, last question here. What's\n\n1190\n01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:15.680\none piece of advice\n\n1191\n01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:20.800\nyou'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Learn to listen. I think\n\n1192\n01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:22.080\nthat being a good\n\n1193\n01:00:22.080 --> 01:00:26.290\nlistener and being able to absorb the strengths and opportunities of your\n\n1194\n01:00:26.290 --> 01:00:28.160\nenvironment is the most\n\n1195\n01:00:28.160 --> 01:00:32.120\npowerful skill. I think a lot of people think leading is something that you do\n\n1196\n01:00:32.120 --> 01:00:33.040\nversus something\n\n1197\n01:00:33.040 --> 01:00:39.360\nthat you absorb. And my whole objective is to try to do the opposite. It's just\n\n1198\n01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:40.480\nlet the environment\n\n1199\n01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:44.420\ncultivate itself and just nurture it. A little bit of watering here, a little\n\n1200\n01:00:44.420 --> 01:00:45.520\nbit of watering there.\n\n1201\n01:00:45.520 --> 01:00:50.570\nBut don't feel the need to push as hard as you might think you do. I think\n\n1202\n01:00:50.570 --> 01:00:51.360\nthere's a lot that's\n\n1203\n01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:54.660\nwritten out there that basically says that it's all about drive. It's all and\n\n1204\n01:00:54.660 --> 01:00:55.280\nthat doesn't mean you\n\n1205\n01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:59.710\ndon't have drive. It just means that learning to appreciate and understand the\n\n1206\n01:00:59.710 --> 01:01:00.640\ncircumstances\n\n1207\n01:01:00.640 --> 01:01:06.960\nthat you're in. And then lead accordingly, not the other way around by forcing\n\n1208\n01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:08.000\nthe circumstance\n\n1209\n01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:12.660\nis a better way to lead in my humble opinion. Well, Varun, I want to thank you\n\n1210\n01:01:12.660 --> 01:01:13.520\nvery much for\n\n1211\n01:01:13.520 --> 01:01:18.370\ntaking the time to be on this podcast. I really enjoyed the conversation. And\n\n1212\n01:01:18.370 --> 01:01:20.080\nyou really are\n\n1213\n01:01:20.080 --> 01:01:24.090\nshaking up the industry and doing great things. And I'll be cheering you on.\n\n1214\n01:01:24.090 --> 01:01:25.680\nHey, thank you so much,\n\n1215\n01:01:25.680 --> 01:01:30.400\nDavid. I appreciate the time. I had a lot of fun and good luck. Can't wait to\n\n1216\n01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:30.960\nbe on again.\n\n1217\n01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:42.720\nDavid, I feel so calm and relaxed after listening in to that conversation with\n\n1218\n01:01:42.720 --> 01:01:43.520\nyou and Varun,\n\n1219\n01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:49.120\nhe is so steady. And I feel like that's comes through in his leadership too.\n\n1220\n01:01:49.120 --> 01:01:54.670\nYeah, he's steady and has a very deep rudder. He's very, very grounded. You\n\n1221\n01:01:54.670 --> 01:01:56.800\nknow, even physically,\n\n1222\n01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:02.000\nas he said, he goes out with his bare feet and feels as a ground, get grounded.\n\n1223\n01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:03.360\nBut he's grounded\n\n1224\n01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:07.700\nand very humble and is so quick to give other people credit. And I love that\n\n1225\n01:02:07.700 --> 01:02:08.800\nabout him.\n\n1226\n01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.810\nYeah, so much of what he talked about when he was mentioning his morning\n\n1227\n01:02:12.810 --> 01:02:14.480\nroutine and how he\n\n1228\n01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:18.080\nlikes to take the morning slow and not look at his phone resonated with me so\n\n1229\n01:02:18.080 --> 01:02:19.040\nmuch. And\n\n1230\n01:02:19.040 --> 01:02:22.900\nit makes me want to be even more disciplined around some of the routines that I\n\n1231\n01:02:22.900 --> 01:02:23.600\nfind myself\n\n1232\n01:02:23.600 --> 01:02:27.610\ndoing. But David, as we do at the end of every episode, I want to debrief some\n\n1233\n01:02:27.610 --> 01:02:28.560\nof the main themes\n\n1234\n01:02:28.560 --> 01:02:33.410\nthat I pulled from this episode with you and Varun. And the first one is this\n\n1235\n01:02:33.410 --> 01:02:34.160\nidea of the\n\n1236\n01:02:34.160 --> 01:02:38.110\npower of shared experiences. I loved what he talked about when he takes his\n\n1237\n01:02:38.110 --> 01:02:38.880\nteam out to the\n\n1238\n01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:44.160\npickleball courts. And he talks a lot about the culture at Rocket, not being\n\n1239\n01:02:44.160 --> 01:02:45.440\nbuilt in slides,\n\n1240\n01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:49.570\nbut the culture really being the behavior that you nurture as a leader. Talk a\n\n1241\n01:02:49.570 --> 01:02:50.880\nlittle bit about\n\n1242\n01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:54.640\nyour point of view on the power of shared experiences and what that can do for\n\n1243\n01:02:54.640 --> 01:02:55.840\na culture and a business.\n\n1244\n01:02:55.840 --> 01:03:00.240\nOh, yeah. Well, I really loved how they they have a culture day, basically,\n\n1245\n01:03:00.240 --> 01:03:00.800\nwhere they go\n\n1246\n01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:04.810\noff for a day, the leadership group. And they're not allowed to talk about\n\n1247\n01:03:04.810 --> 01:03:06.400\nmortgages, you know,\n\n1248\n01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:11.460\nyou know, because they want to, you know, learn each about each other, the\n\n1249\n01:03:11.460 --> 01:03:12.960\nhumanity that they have\n\n1250\n01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:17.030\nand have a shared experience that that frees them up to go back into the\n\n1251\n01:03:17.030 --> 01:03:18.560\nbusiness with an attitude\n\n1252\n01:03:18.560 --> 01:03:23.630\nthat says that we can basically solve everything. And, you know, I think that\n\n1253\n01:03:23.630 --> 01:03:24.880\nobviously at Rocket,\n\n1254\n01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:29.040\nthey spend a lot of time valuing their their culture and communicating their\n\n1255\n01:03:29.040 --> 01:03:29.520\nculture. They\n\n1256\n01:03:29.520 --> 01:03:34.960\nhave a little book of their 16 isms, which everybody talks about. And, you know\n\n1257\n01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:36.560\n, that was very, very\n\n1258\n01:03:36.560 --> 01:03:40.810\ninteresting to me, you know, I always tried to have shared experiences at young\n\n1259\n01:03:40.810 --> 01:03:41.520\nbrands as well.\n\n1260\n01:03:41.520 --> 01:03:46.720\nWe would go on bus rides together, where we would go out and, you know, go into\n\n1261\n01:03:46.720 --> 01:03:47.760\nother restaurants\n\n1262\n01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:52.410\nand talk to customers together. And they wouldn't know that we were associated\n\n1263\n01:03:52.410 --> 01:03:53.440\nwith pizza at Taco Bell\n\n1264\n01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:58.290\nand KFC. But we just wanted to hear how people talked about our business and\n\n1265\n01:03:58.290 --> 01:03:59.840\npeople would literally\n\n1266\n01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:05.840\nrefer to those those bus trips and what we learned all the time. And when you\n\n1267\n01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:06.960\nsee the world together,\n\n1268\n01:04:07.600 --> 01:04:11.200\nyou know, it creates a shared experience that allows you to come together to\n\n1269\n01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:12.080\nsolve the problems that\n\n1270\n01:04:12.080 --> 01:04:17.130\nneed to get solved. So, you know, I really love love the passion they have for\n\n1271\n01:04:17.130 --> 01:04:18.880\nculture at Rocket.\n\n1272\n01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:23.320\nAnd I also was very impressed that Verin was so quick to give the founders\n\n1273\n01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:24.080\ncredit for the\n\n1274\n01:04:24.080 --> 01:04:31.440\nculture. And while he's making massive changes, you know, which he calls\n\n1275\n01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:33.200\nevolution, how companies\n\n1276\n01:04:33.200 --> 01:04:37.950\nneed to evolve, what he says really stays steady and is going to be the\n\n1277\n01:04:37.950 --> 01:04:38.800\nconstant that's going to help\n\n1278\n01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:42.720\nthem win in the future. And is a competitive advantage is the unique culture\n\n1279\n01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:44.160\nthat they have at Rocket.\n\n1280\n01:04:44.160 --> 01:04:49.300\nAnd I love that. I love the fact that you can use culture as the grounding that\n\n1281\n01:04:49.300 --> 01:04:50.720\nyou need to have\n\n1282\n01:04:50.720 --> 01:04:55.770\nto make sure that you evolve and change so that you're successful as you move\n\n1283\n01:04:55.770 --> 01:04:56.640\ninto the future.\n\n1284\n01:04:56.640 --> 01:05:00.400\nI think that really stood out to me about that is they're very intentional with\n\n1285\n01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:01.360\nthose shared\n\n1286\n01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.600\nexperiences. I mean, he even said an episode distraction can be a good thing.\n\n1287\n01:05:05.600 --> 01:05:06.720\nSo, for example,\n\n1288\n01:05:06.720 --> 01:05:09.780\nwhen they're at the pickleball courts, he says, you know, they're dressed\n\n1289\n01:05:09.780 --> 01:05:10.960\ndifferently. Like,\n\n1290\n01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:14.400\npeople look different. So it just puts you in a different mindset and forces\n\n1291\n01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:15.120\nyou to get to know\n\n1292\n01:05:15.120 --> 01:05:19.170\nfolks outside of just their functional role and the office. And as you were\n\n1293\n01:05:19.170 --> 01:05:21.600\nsaying, that contributes\n\n1294\n01:05:21.600 --> 01:05:26.730\nto this culture and this shared sort of like collective knowing of what we're\n\n1295\n01:05:26.730 --> 01:05:27.520\nall about, what\n\n1296\n01:05:27.520 --> 01:05:32.400\nwe're trying to do and how we can drive our mission forward. Yeah, absolutely.\n\n1297\n01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:35.700\nAnother thing that really stood out to me about the way that Varun leads is\n\n1298\n01:05:35.700 --> 01:05:36.880\nthat he is really\n\n1299\n01:05:36.880 --> 01:05:41.540\nobsessed with getting experience one-on-one with customers. He says that he\n\n1300\n01:05:41.540 --> 01:05:42.800\ndoesn't really depend on\n\n1301\n01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:47.880\nuser or consumer data. He likes to get into the home with customers and really\n\n1302\n01:05:47.880 --> 01:05:49.280\nunderstand how they\n\n1303\n01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:53.710\nthink and what they feel about their home and really, you know, everything that\n\n1304\n01:05:53.710 --> 01:05:54.960\ngoes into owning\n\n1305\n01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:59.040\na home. Talk a little bit about your experience getting firsthand knowledge\n\n1306\n01:05:59.040 --> 01:05:59.760\nfrom the customer\n\n1307\n01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:04.420\nand why it is so critical. First of all, I want to acknowledge the fact that he\n\n1308\n01:06:04.420 --> 01:06:04.960\ndoes something\n\n1309\n01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:08.690\nthat I think is very unique for CEOs. He actually goes into customers' homes,\n\n1310\n01:06:08.690 --> 01:06:10.080\nasks them 40 questions,\n\n1311\n01:06:10.080 --> 01:06:15.130\nand I love what he said. It makes you empathetic. It makes you really\n\n1312\n01:06:15.130 --> 01:06:16.560\nunderstand that the stress\n\n1313\n01:06:16.560 --> 01:06:21.410\nand the pressure that goes into buying a home and the need that you need to\n\n1314\n01:06:21.410 --> 01:06:23.680\nhave for an end-to-end\n\n1315\n01:06:23.680 --> 01:06:29.200\ncustomer experience. I'm sure that thorough grounding that he had with the\n\n1316\n01:06:29.200 --> 01:06:30.960\ncustomer helped\n\n1317\n01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:35.610\nhim make the big acquisitions that he's made so that they can ultimately own\n\n1318\n01:06:35.610 --> 01:06:36.800\nthe end-to-end\n\n1319\n01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:43.920\nhome buying experience. I thought that was really great. For me, I think the\n\n1320\n01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:44.640\nfirst thing I always\n\n1321\n01:06:44.640 --> 01:06:47.640\ntried to do when I was walking into restaurants is I'd turn left. A lot of\n\n1322\n01:06:47.640 --> 01:06:48.400\ntimes people just\n\n1323\n01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:51.740\ngo into the back of the house and talk to team members. I would come in, turn\n\n1324\n01:06:51.740 --> 01:06:52.640\nleft, and talk to\n\n1325\n01:06:52.640 --> 01:06:57.760\ncustomers and ask them what they thought of this restaurant, how they like the\n\n1326\n01:06:57.760 --> 01:06:58.080\nfood,\n\n1327\n01:06:58.080 --> 01:07:01.650\nwhat they think of the service, what we need to do to get better. But\n\n1328\n01:07:01.650 --> 01:07:03.600\nconstantly hearing customer\n\n1329\n01:07:03.600 --> 01:07:09.600\nfeedback directly from the customer, I think gives you the real knowledge and\n\n1330\n01:07:09.600 --> 01:07:10.400\ninsight you need\n\n1331\n01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:16.000\nto really make good decisions. It helps you really understand reality as well.\n\n1332\n01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:17.280\nI didn't\n\n1333\n01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.480\nyou love the fact that he said if you argue with reality, you're going to lose\n\n1334\n01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:21.600\n100 percent of the\n\n1335\n01:07:21.600 --> 01:07:26.990\ntime. So many times we put our heads in the sand and we don't really want to\n\n1336\n01:07:26.990 --> 01:07:28.560\nhear what we\n\n1337\n01:07:28.560 --> 01:07:33.240\nhave to do to really address customer needs. I'll tell you what, when you go\n\n1338\n01:07:33.240 --> 01:07:34.160\nout and you hear from\n\n1339\n01:07:34.160 --> 01:07:38.820\ncustomers directly, I think if that doesn't give you some inspiration, I don't\n\n1340\n01:07:38.820 --> 01:07:39.840\nknow what will.\n\n1341\n01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:44.480\nAnother thing that getting that face-to-face interaction with customers does is\n\n1342\n01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:44.800\nit allows\n\n1343\n01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:50.560\nyou to hone in even deeper on the actual problem that your business solves. He\n\n1344\n01:07:50.560 --> 01:07:51.360\ntalked a lot about\n\n1345\n01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:54.960\nthe importance of understanding the problem. Say a little bit more about that.\n\n1346\n01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:57.280\nIf you understand\n\n1347\n01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:01.200\nwhat the most important problem is that occurs most frequently with customers\n\n1348\n01:08:01.200 --> 01:08:02.000\nand then you solve\n\n1349\n01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:05.620\nit, you're going to grow your business. I know at Taco Bell, we learned by\n\n1350\n01:08:05.620 --> 01:08:07.520\ntalking to customers that\n\n1351\n01:08:07.520 --> 01:08:11.360\nour biggest issue was that our products weren't portable and we're messy to eat\n\n1352\n01:08:11.360 --> 01:08:12.000\nin the drive-through.\n\n1353\n01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:17.540\nSo we develop things like the grill stuff burrito, the quesadilla, the crunch\n\n1354\n01:08:17.540 --> 01:08:18.400\nwrap, which are all\n\n1355\n01:08:18.400 --> 01:08:22.390\nmuch easier to eat on the go. And our business just exploded because we\n\n1356\n01:08:22.390 --> 01:08:24.000\nunderstood what the real\n\n1357\n01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:32.240\nproblem was. I think that's what he tries to do and really try to cull through\n\n1358\n01:08:32.240 --> 01:08:33.280\nall the data that's\n\n1359\n01:08:33.280 --> 01:08:38.750\nout there and listen to the customers and then really identify what the problem\n\n1360\n01:08:38.750 --> 01:08:39.840\nis, obsess over\n\n1361\n01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:45.700\nthe problem and solve it. And I think the great leaders, the great\n\n1362\n01:08:45.700 --> 01:08:48.240\nentrepreneurs solve the problems,\n\n1363\n01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:53.040\nthe biggest problems that occur most frequently and are the most important. And\n\n1364\n01:08:53.040 --> 01:08:53.840\nI'll tell you what,\n\n1365\n01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:58.590\nwhen you do that, I guarantee you, you will grow. David, it reminds me of your\n\n1366\n01:08:58.590 --> 01:08:59.040\nconversation with\n\n1367\n01:08:59.040 --> 01:09:02.070\nErnie Levine, who founded Waze. He even wrote a book called Fallen Love. I\n\n1368\n01:09:02.070 --> 01:09:02.880\nthink it's called\n\n1369\n01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:06.810\nFallen Love with the Problem. And to your point, the biggest problem that\n\n1370\n01:09:06.810 --> 01:09:08.000\noccurs most frequently for\n\n1371\n01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:11.420\npeople on the road needing directions is traffic. And that's what they've built\n\n1372\n01:09:11.420 --> 01:09:12.080\ntheir whole brand\n\n1373\n01:09:12.080 --> 01:09:16.730\naround and just continues to grow. The final theme that I really want to talk\n\n1374\n01:09:16.730 --> 01:09:17.040\nabout, David,\n\n1375\n01:09:17.040 --> 01:09:22.090\njust because it's fun to talk about, is this idea of celebrating the inches. I\n\n1376\n01:09:22.090 --> 01:09:22.560\nloved the question\n\n1377\n01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:26.110\nthat you asked, Veron, when you said, I know you celebrate those big milestones\n\n1378\n01:09:26.110 --> 01:09:26.960\n, but talk to me a\n\n1379\n01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:29.820\nlittle bit about how you celebrate the small stuff. What did you think about\n\n1380\n01:09:29.820 --> 01:09:30.640\nwhat he had to say\n\n1381\n01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:37.590\nabout celebrating the inches? I think that too often leaders just want to\n\n1382\n01:09:37.590 --> 01:09:37.920\ncelebrate\n\n1383\n01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:42.580\nthe touchdowns, but they don't celebrate the first downs along the way. And he\n\n1384\n01:09:42.580 --> 01:09:42.960\ncalled those\n\n1385\n01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:49.210\nfirst downs the inches. And he used the example of the rocket sign that need to\n\n1386\n01:09:49.210 --> 01:09:52.560\nbe fixed. And how\n\n1387\n01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:58.090\nhe blasted out what happened to the entire organization, which really drives\n\n1388\n01:09:58.090 --> 01:09:59.040\npride in the\n\n1389\n01:09:59.040 --> 01:10:05.380\norganization and also sets the tone and standard for what everybody else ought\n\n1390\n01:10:05.380 --> 01:10:07.040\nto do when they see\n\n1391\n01:10:07.040 --> 01:10:15.600\nsomething that needs to be fixed. And I think when you do that, it's a great\n\n1392\n01:10:15.600 --> 01:10:15.840\nform\n\n1393\n01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:20.890\nof recognition because it basically says that you don't necessarily have to hit\n\n1394\n01:10:20.890 --> 01:10:21.920\nthe home run.\n\n1395\n01:10:21.920 --> 01:10:26.320\nIf you do something good around here, somebody's watching. And that's what I\n\n1396\n01:10:26.320 --> 01:10:27.040\nthink he's really\n\n1397\n01:10:27.040 --> 01:10:30.770\ngetting at here is you've got to recognize the good things that are happening\n\n1398\n01:10:30.770 --> 01:10:32.160\nin your company.\n\n1399\n01:10:32.160 --> 01:10:37.980\nAnd every time you see him and those inches, they'll grow into feet and they'll\n\n1400\n01:10:37.980 --> 01:10:39.040\ngrow into yards and\n\n1401\n01:10:39.040 --> 01:10:43.840\nthey'll grow into, you know, hundreds of yards. And it's that compound effect\n\n1402\n01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:45.760\nthat you're really\n\n1403\n01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:51.280\nlooking for. And I think it all comes from the belief that you got to believe.\n\n1404\n01:10:51.280 --> 01:10:53.360\nAnd I think it's\n\n1405\n01:10:53.360 --> 01:10:58.830\nobvious to me that, you know, Varun believes in people and their capacity to\n\n1406\n01:10:58.830 --> 01:11:02.080\ncontribute. And you\n\n1407\n01:11:02.080 --> 01:11:08.490\nknow, I think that he understands that it's truly the soft stuff that drives\n\n1408\n01:11:08.490 --> 01:11:09.840\nhard results in the end.\n\n1409\n01:11:09.840 --> 01:11:15.520\nAbsolutely. I love the way that he described celebrating those inches and it\n\n1410\n01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:16.080\nbeing important.\n\n1411\n01:11:16.080 --> 01:11:20.800\nHe said creating and widening a blast radius around an inch is a really easy\n\n1412\n01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:21.680\nway to increase\n\n1413\n01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:25.860\nits significance. And I just love that because you can literally see it in your\n\n1414\n01:11:25.860 --> 01:11:27.040\nmind like the blast\n\n1415\n01:11:27.040 --> 01:11:31.760\nradius of an inch, increasing its significance. He's a great communicator, by\n\n1416\n01:11:31.760 --> 01:11:32.880\nthe way. I didn't\n\n1417\n01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:38.280\ntalk about it on the show, but you know, he was actually a script writer at\n\n1418\n01:11:38.280 --> 01:11:39.200\nMicrosoft.\n\n1419\n01:11:39.200 --> 01:11:44.970\nSo, you know, he understands the power of language. And he uses it quite, quite\n\n1420\n01:11:44.970 --> 01:11:45.920\neffectively.\n\n1421\n01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:49.570\nWell, David, as we wrap this episode today, what is it that you really want\n\n1422\n01:11:49.570 --> 01:11:50.720\nlisteners to be thinking\n\n1423\n01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:53.600\nabout incorporating into their leadership and to their work?\n\n1424\n01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:58.720\nNumber one, recognize the power of shared experiences. They can bring your team\n\n1425\n01:11:58.720 --> 01:11:59.520\ntogether. You can\n\n1426\n01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:03.920\ncoalesce around what really matters. And it's something where you can create a\n\n1427\n01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:04.960\nmemory that\n\n1428\n01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:11.440\nthat will matter. Second thing is, you know, yeah, you can have focus groups\n\n1429\n01:12:11.440 --> 01:12:12.160\nand you can have\n\n1430\n01:12:12.160 --> 01:12:18.080\nquantitative research. All that is good. But there's no substitute whatsoever\n\n1431\n01:12:18.080 --> 01:12:19.760\nfor getting first-hand\n\n1432\n01:12:19.760 --> 01:12:24.810\nknowledge from the customers and talking directly with the customers. It gives\n\n1433\n01:12:24.810 --> 01:12:26.320\nyou empathy and it\n\n1434\n01:12:26.320 --> 01:12:32.120\ngives you inspiration to solve the problems that the customers are having with\n\n1435\n01:12:32.120 --> 01:12:33.440\nyour business or your\n\n1436\n01:12:33.440 --> 01:12:37.380\ncategory that you're in. And the third thing is, it's great to have the home\n\n1437\n01:12:37.380 --> 01:12:38.480\nruns. It's great to\n\n1438\n01:12:38.480 --> 01:12:42.710\nhave the big wins. But celebrate those inches out there. Celebrate the little\n\n1439\n01:12:42.710 --> 01:12:43.760\nthings that really\n\n1440\n01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:49.530\ndemonstrate the kind of behaviors you know that will add up to the big things\n\n1441\n01:12:49.530 --> 01:12:50.400\nand big results\n\n1442\n01:12:50.400 --> 01:12:57.200\nas you go into the future. So that's my story and that's Varun's story and I'm\n\n1443\n01:12:57.200 --> 01:12:57.600\nsticking to it.\n\n1444\n01:12:57.600 --> 01:13:03.000\nI love it. Well, David, thank you again for another great episode of How\n\n1445\n01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:03.840\nLeaders Lead.\n\n1446\n01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:07.280\nThank you, of course, to Varun for your excellent insights and sharing your\n\n1447\n01:13:07.280 --> 01:13:08.320\nwisdom with our audience.\n\n1448\n01:13:08.320 --> 01:13:12.680\nAnd thank you, of course, to our listeners. Tune in next Thursday and we will\n\n1449\n01:13:12.680 --> 01:13:13.440\nsee you soon.\n\n1450\n01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:16.880\nYou\n","is_pinned",false,"pinned_at","is_featured","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL6135289921.mp3","dx_media_id",4157,"video_media_id","thumbnail_image_media_id","published_date","2026-07-30","itunes_episode_id",302,"youtube_id","HtvmTPY-mVk","2026-08-19T18:05:29.000000Z","Listen to this leadership podcast with Varun Krishna, CEO of Rocket Companies, and discover how to build your company culture around real behaviors, not empty words.","dx_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/WOA03VCf7J7M7jXmaVznQNeMuNdQcVra9dZ1VJFf.mp3","dx_filename","WOA03VCf7J7M7jXmaVznQNeMuNdQcVra9dZ1VJFf.mp3","dx_mux_playback_id","QE001QNtRIrpEg01MhfipqRX4QHBUyz2wBngZ3YyRfav00","dx_waveform_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/waveforms/4157.json","video_url","video_mux_playback_id","duration",4395093,"thumbnail_url","https://img.youtube.com/vi/HtvmTPY-mVk/maxresdefault.jpg","thumbnail_image_url","dx_media",{"_13":66,"_96":80,"_97":78,"_98":99,"_31":82,"_33":100,"_101":-5,"_102":84,"_87":88,"_103":-5},"video_media","thumbnail_image_media","filename","url","status","ready","kgOCAGor6NNIkmZbQnkfkAXrfwIrTMS4larH8wUhM02o","mux_upload_id","waveform_url","preview_media_id","first_name","Varun","last_name","Krishna","job_title","Rocket Companies, CEO","Varun Krishna, fintech, Rocket, BIPOC, Indian American","external_links","https://www.linkedin.com/in/varun-krishna-30019a22,https://www.rocketcompanies.com/press-room/leadership/",0,"image_media_id",4132,4133,"2026-07-21T21:09:53.000000Z","send_push_notification_at","2026-08-03T19:00:00.000000Z","image_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/EadYIBd4EScYmIwbI1gkWgbwb6ZZmk6IUXea6Cyk.jpg","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/RSVgstejcWJuPxkkgI10jPBW0oRPYP726ZgcLI9Z.jpg","https://www.howleaderslead.com/leaders/291/varun-krishna","industry_id",6,"industry",{"_13":125,"_136":137,"_138":140},"industries",[135],"image_media",{"_13":115,"_96":134,"_97":121,"_98":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_101":-5,"_102":-5,"_87":-5,"_103":-5},{"_13":116,"_96":133,"_97":122,"_98":-5,"_31":-5,"_33":-5,"_101":-5,"_102":-5,"_87":-5,"_103":-5},"RSVgstejcWJuPxkkgI10jPBW0oRPYP726ZgcLI9Z.jpg","EadYIBd4EScYmIwbI1gkWgbwb6ZZmk6IUXea6Cyk.jpg",{"_13":125,"_136":137,"_138":139},"name","Finance","pivot",{"_35":36,"_124":125},{"_35":36,"_124":125},"user","token","favorites",[],"collections",[],"env",{"_149":150,"_151":152,"_153":154,"_155":156,"_157":158},"GOOGLE_CLIENT_ID","644017954836-qpllhu38r0tsrtfq85ukntcvsb0akbht.apps.googleusercontent.com","APPLE_CLIENT_ID","com.howleaderslead.webapp","APPLE_REDIRECT_URI","https://www.howleaderslead.com/auth/apple-callback","APP_URL","https://howleaderslead.com","GTM_ID",""]