[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_135":-5,"_136":-5,"_137":138,"_139":140,"_141":142},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12},"clip",{"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":-5,"_18":19,"_20":-5,"_21":22,"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":34,"_35":36,"_37":38,"_39":40,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_44":45,"_46":-5,"_47":48,"_49":50,"_51":-5},"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/1147/suspend-judgement-when-vetting-ideas","id",1147,"title","Suspend judgement when vetting ideas","subtitle","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.080\neverything. The advice monster in me has one piece of advice he wants to give\n\n2\n00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.440\nand that is this.\n\n3\n00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:20.960\nIt's two words. Suspend judgment. Just suspend judgment. Let things play out.\n\n4\n00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:21.920\nYou know, so many\n\n5\n00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:28.640\nideas get killed before they've had any kind of opportunity to develop. So let\n\n6\n00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:29.680\npeople get their\n\n7\n00:00:29.680 --> 00:00:37.150\nideas out and build on them. And then you can take that 85% to 100%. But if you\n\n8\n00:00:37.150 --> 00:00:38.720\nstart out by\n\n9\n00:00:38.720 --> 00:00:42.320\njudging everything that comes out and say, Nah, that won't work. That will work\n\n10\n00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.560\n. You just squash\n\n11\n00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:47.600\ncreativity. And that's the worst thing you can do.\n","pretty_transcript","start_time",245200,"end_time",291180,"keywords","ideas, opinion, judgment, advice","slug","suspend-judgement-when-vetting-ideas","origin","cms","mux_playback_id","lkIVg01800LhFt1Hva3dG5901GUhCF3bQyQxqMm29LJPFo","mux_asset_id","And1uFvXOFrRXvbPCQTehuG8017e00FK4lc02ZVvzQ9Srk","leader_id",154,"episode_id",301,"updated_at","2025-02-26T19:38:50.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/1147/suspend-judgement-when-vetting-ideas","og_image_url","leader",{"_13":36,"_98":99,"_100":101,"_102":103,"_25":104,"_105":106,"_60":107,"_57":108,"_109":110,"_67":111,"_39":112,"_113":-5,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_114":115,"_86":116,"_44":117,"_118":119,"_120":121,"_46":-5,"_122":123,"_124":125,"_90":126,"_51":-5},"episode",{"_13":38,"_15":52,"_27":53,"_17":-5,"_54":-5,"_18":55,"_20":56,"_57":58,"_59":-5,"_60":58,"_61":-5,"_62":63,"_64":65,"_66":-5,"_67":-5,"_68":69,"_70":-5,"_71":-5,"_35":36,"_39":72,"_41":-5,"_42":-5,"_43":-5,"_73":74,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":-5,"_82":-5,"_83":84,"_85":-5,"_86":-5,"_46":-5,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":-5,"_51":-5},"og_image_media","3 More Questions (Michael Bungay Stanier) with David Novak and Koula Callahan","3-more-questions-michael-bungay-stanier-with-david-novak-and-koula-callahan","summary","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.580\nWelcome to how leaders lead. I'm Kula Callahan here to bring you another\n\n2\n00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:08.420\nedition of three\n\n3\n00:00:08.420 --> 00:00:13.000\nmore questions with David Novak. David, we've got a fun one to dive into today.\n\n4\n00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:16.340\nThat's right, Kula. Today, we're going to take a deeper dive into the\n\n5\n00:00:16.340 --> 00:00:17.180\nconversation that\n\n6\n00:00:17.180 --> 00:00:22.580\nI had with Michael Bungay-Stanier. Now, Michael's the founder of Box of Crayons\n\n7\n00:00:22.580 --> 00:00:23.480\n, which is a\n\n8\n00:00:23.480 --> 00:00:28.750\nvery creative name for a very creative guy. It's a leadership development\n\n9\n00:00:28.750 --> 00:00:29.180\ncompany that\n\n10\n00:00:29.180 --> 00:00:34.190\nteaches people how to tap into the power of curiosity. Now, Michael's also the\n\n11\n00:00:34.190 --> 00:00:34.620\nauthor\n\n12\n00:00:34.620 --> 00:00:39.480\nof a bestselling book that I highly recommend, The Coaching Habit. So there's a\n\n13\n00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:39.980\nlot to be\n\n14\n00:00:39.980 --> 00:00:44.800\nlearned from that podcast. And I can't wait to answer the three questions that\n\n15\n00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:45.340\nyou have\n\n16\n00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:55.060\nfor me today. So throw me the high-hard ones. Let's get going.\n\n17\n00:00:55.060 --> 00:00:59.750\nQuestion number one, the paradigm shift that Michael really offers leaders is\n\n18\n00:00:59.750 --> 00:01:00.500\nthis, stay\n\n19\n00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:06.730\ncurious longer and jump into action and advice giving much slower. David, was\n\n20\n00:01:06.730 --> 00:01:07.280\nthere a time\n\n21\n00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.750\nin your career that you feel like you did this well and maybe a time in your\n\n22\n00:01:11.750 --> 00:01:12.260\ncareer\n\n23\n00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:15.040\nwhere you didn't do this so well?\n\n24\n00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.950\nEarly on in my career, I did not do it very well because when you become a\n\n25\n00:01:18.950 --> 00:01:19.660\nleader and\n\n26\n00:01:19.660 --> 00:01:24.430\nyou become in charge of a group of people and there your responsibility, you\n\n27\n00:01:24.430 --> 00:01:25.220\nhave all this\n\n28\n00:01:25.220 --> 00:01:30.560\nbuilt up pressure to really show people why you should be in that job and how\n\n29\n00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:31.260\nsmart you\n\n30\n00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:37.480\nare and why they should be looking to you for advice. So very often back then,\n\n31\n00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:37.940\nI'd give\n\n32\n00:01:37.940 --> 00:01:42.410\npeople advice before I knew what they had to say about a particular issue. So\n\n33\n00:01:42.410 --> 00:01:42.620\nthat's\n\n34\n00:01:42.620 --> 00:01:47.310\nwhen I didn't do it well. The more I matured as a leader, the more I realized\n\n35\n00:01:47.310 --> 00:01:48.380\nthat you could\n\n36\n00:01:48.380 --> 00:01:52.500\nget a heck of a lot more if you just stayed quiet for a longer period of time.\n\n37\n00:01:52.500 --> 00:01:52.740\nYou went\n\n38\n00:01:52.740 --> 00:01:57.220\naround the room, you asked everybody what they thought, what their issues were,\n\n39\n00:01:57.220 --> 00:01:57.340\nwhat\n\n40\n00:01:57.340 --> 00:02:01.410\nthey thought that we needed to do, to do something better, what the potential\n\n41\n00:02:01.410 --> 00:02:02.180\npitfalls could\n\n42\n00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:06.720\nbe. You know, all those kinds of questions, but really, really be a good\n\n43\n00:02:06.720 --> 00:02:07.460\nlistener and\n\n44\n00:02:07.460 --> 00:02:12.540\nbe curious about what people have to say about a particular subject and then\n\n45\n00:02:12.540 --> 00:02:13.700\nweigh in.\n\n46\n00:02:13.700 --> 00:02:18.010\nYou need to remember that if you're the leader, you will ultimately have the\n\n47\n00:02:18.010 --> 00:02:19.140\ndecision-making\n\n48\n00:02:19.140 --> 00:02:25.730\npower for the team. So weigh in after everybody's had a chance to really get\n\n49\n00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:26.620\ntheir points\n\n50\n00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:32.640\nacross because what this will really drive is involvement. And when you have\n\n51\n00:02:32.640 --> 00:02:33.580\ninvolvement,\n\n52\n00:02:33.580 --> 00:02:39.860\nyou have commitment. And you know, that took me a while to learn, but as I grew\n\n53\n00:02:39.860 --> 00:02:40.540\ninto my\n\n54\n00:02:40.540 --> 00:02:44.900\nleadership roles, I got better and better at it. And I have to tell you, it's\n\n55\n00:02:44.900 --> 00:02:45.340\nsomething\n\n56\n00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:50.640\nI think every one of us has to fight. I think Michael called it the advice\n\n57\n00:02:50.640 --> 00:02:51.580\nmonster. You\n\n58\n00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:56.820\nknow, we have this monster inside of us that just really wants us to give\n\n59\n00:02:56.820 --> 00:02:58.020\npeople advice\n\n60\n00:02:58.020 --> 00:03:00.340\nway before we should.\n\n61\n00:03:00.340 --> 00:03:05.250\nThe advice monster is an amazing metaphor that he gives that voice inside all\n\n62\n00:03:05.250 --> 00:03:05.620\nof us\n\n63\n00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:11.290\nas leaders that just wants to jump in and solve the problem and do all the work\n\n64\n00:03:11.290 --> 00:03:11.660\nfor\n\n65\n00:03:11.660 --> 00:03:17.300\neverybody else. But I think David, it's so important for leaders to offer space\n\n66\n00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:17.820\nto other\n\n67\n00:03:17.820 --> 00:03:22.880\npeople so that they can continue to learn and grow as well. Because if you're\n\n68\n00:03:22.880 --> 00:03:23.180\nthe one\n\n69\n00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:27.830\nfiguring everything out for them, then it doesn't offer them a chance to grow\n\n70\n00:03:27.830 --> 00:03:28.620\nand develop\n\n71\n00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:33.610\nin ways that they could if you just got curious about what they had to say and\n\n72\n00:03:33.610 --> 00:03:34.860\nhow they see\n\n73\n00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:37.140\nsolutions to problems.\n\n74\n00:03:37.140 --> 00:03:40.750\nQuestion number two, another insight Michael offers is that leaders should\n\n75\n00:03:40.750 --> 00:03:41.500\nenable others\n\n76\n00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:44.820\nto figure out the problems that need to be solved and then come up with the\n\n77\n00:03:44.820 --> 00:03:45.300\ncreative\n\n78\n00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:51.390\nsolution to solve it. He says for leaders, if someone has an idea that's 85% as\n\n79\n00:03:51.390 --> 00:03:51.780\ngood\n\n80\n00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:58.920\nas your idea, it's 100% a win for you. What are ways that leaders can create\n\n81\n00:03:58.920 --> 00:03:59.460\nspace for\n\n82\n00:03:59.460 --> 00:04:04.440\nother people to thrive and tame that voice inside of them that wants to control\n\n83\n00:04:04.440 --> 00:04:05.500\neverything?\n\n84\n00:04:05.500 --> 00:04:13.800\nThe advice monster in me has one piece of advice he wants to give and that is\n\n85\n00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:14.820\nthis.\n\n86\n00:04:14.820 --> 00:04:24.940\nIt's two words, suspend judgment. Just suspend judgment. Let things play out.\n\n87\n00:04:24.940 --> 00:04:25.420\nYou know, so\n\n88\n00:04:25.420 --> 00:04:32.450\nmany ideas get killed before they've had any kind of opportunity to develop. So\n\n89\n00:04:32.450 --> 00:04:33.220\nlet people\n\n90\n00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:41.140\nget their ideas out and build on them. And then you can take that 85% to 100%.\n\n91\n00:04:41.140 --> 00:04:41.220\nBut if\n\n92\n00:04:41.220 --> 00:04:45.510\nyou start out by judging everything that comes out and say, \"Nah, that won't\n\n93\n00:04:45.510 --> 00:04:46.140\nwork. That\n\n94\n00:04:46.140 --> 00:04:51.380\nwill work.\" You just squash creativity. And that's the worst thing you can do.\n\n95\n00:04:51.380 --> 00:04:56.440\nIt also goes back to what you shared earlier about listening. I think offering\n\n96\n00:04:56.440 --> 00:04:57.860\npeople space\n\n97\n00:04:57.860 --> 00:05:02.280\nby simply not talking and not always being the first to share your point of\n\n98\n00:05:02.280 --> 00:05:03.020\nview or your\n\n99\n00:05:03.020 --> 00:05:07.700\nopinion on something is a really great practice that every leader can do. And\n\n100\n00:05:07.700 --> 00:05:08.180\nyou know, if\n\n101\n00:05:08.180 --> 00:05:12.080\nyou're listening to this episode and you're a founder and you want everything\n\n102\n00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:12.900\nto be done,\n\n103\n00:05:12.900 --> 00:05:17.060\nexactly the way that you want it to be done, I think there's a lot to learn in\n\n104\n00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:18.060\nthis statement\n\n105\n00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:23.570\nof an idea being 85% as good as yours. You can also take that to 100% like you\n\n106\n00:05:23.570 --> 00:05:23.980\nsaid.\n\n107\n00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:28.140\nBut if something is 85% as good as the way that you want it to be done, it's\n\n108\n00:05:28.140 --> 00:05:28.700\nusually\n\n109\n00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:30.700\ngoing to be done pretty well.\n\n110\n00:05:30.700 --> 00:05:36.940\nI think the real point is that the 85% will become 100% because you want 100%.\n\n111\n00:05:36.940 --> 00:05:37.140\nYou don't\n\n112\n00:05:37.140 --> 00:05:43.300\nwant 85%. You know, I don't care who's, you can't fake it. All that 85%. That's\n\n113\n00:05:43.300 --> 00:05:43.740\nas good\n\n114\n00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:51.170\nas by 100%. No, it's not. But together, you can get to 100%. Together, the team\n\n115\n00:05:51.170 --> 00:05:51.740\ncan get\n\n116\n00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:58.710\nto 100%. But you've got to give credit to that 85% and really celebrate that 85\n\n117\n00:05:58.710 --> 00:05:58.940\n% for\n\n118\n00:05:58.940 --> 00:06:02.930\nbeing something that's really powerful and maybe something you wouldn't have\n\n119\n00:06:02.930 --> 00:06:04.180\ncome up with.\n\n120\n00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.720\nYou know, there gets to be a point in your life as a leader where you have to\n\n121\n00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:09.460\ncelebrate\n\n122\n00:06:09.460 --> 00:06:15.160\nother people's ideas as much as your own. When that happens, you get so many\n\n123\n00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:16.620\nmore ideas.\n\n124\n00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:21.340\nAnd the other thing is, is that the reason why I say suspend judgment is such\n\n125\n00:06:21.340 --> 00:06:22.260\nan important\n\n126\n00:06:22.260 --> 00:06:30.340\nconcept is that as a leader, a lot of times we think our job is to judge. And\n\n127\n00:06:30.340 --> 00:06:30.660\nyou know\n\n128\n00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:38.210\nwhat? The judge inside of all of us, I think gets us in trouble. Yet you want\n\n129\n00:06:38.210 --> 00:06:38.580\nto make\n\n130\n00:06:38.580 --> 00:06:44.580\ndecisions and that good judgment comes into play. But what you don't want to be\n\n131\n00:06:44.580 --> 00:06:44.900\ndoing\n\n132\n00:06:44.900 --> 00:06:50.010\nis walking around judging everybody and everything that you hear. It's a big\n\n133\n00:06:50.010 --> 00:06:51.260\ndifference, you\n\n134\n00:06:51.260 --> 00:06:56.360\nknow? You want to really understand what people are thinking, what their ideas\n\n135\n00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:57.020\nare and make\n\n136\n00:06:57.020 --> 00:07:03.140\nreally high quality decisions. And that's when your judgment comes into play.\n\n137\n00:07:03.140 --> 00:07:06.620\nQuestion number three. Michael wrote a book called The Coaching Habit and it\n\n138\n00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:07.300\nsold over\n\n139\n00:07:07.300 --> 00:07:11.520\na million copies. And like you, David, Michael is passionate about leaders\n\n140\n00:07:11.520 --> 00:07:12.380\nbecoming great\n\n141\n00:07:12.380 --> 00:07:17.710\ncoaches, mainly because of how it shifts power. Instead of telling someone what\n\n142\n00:07:17.710 --> 00:07:18.940\nto do, a great\n\n143\n00:07:18.940 --> 00:07:23.190\ncoach asks questions that empower people to take responsibility and figure\n\n144\n00:07:23.190 --> 00:07:24.020\nthings out\n\n145\n00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:28.520\nthemselves. Now, a lot of people talk about the importance of coaching as a\n\n146\n00:07:28.520 --> 00:07:29.340\nboss. And\n\n147\n00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:33.650\nI want to hear from you, David, can you offer our listeners some practical ways\n\n148\n00:07:33.650 --> 00:07:34.180\nto shift\n\n149\n00:07:34.180 --> 00:07:37.740\ntheir mindset from being a boss to being a coach?\n\n150\n00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:42.600\nWell, one thing that I really believe is that telling isn't selling. You know,\n\n151\n00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:43.900\ntelling people\n\n152\n00:07:43.900 --> 00:07:51.200\nwhat to do is just not a very good way to convince them to do it because of\n\n153\n00:07:51.200 --> 00:07:52.180\nthis one\n\n154\n00:07:52.180 --> 00:07:59.820\nsimple reason is that any idea that you can help people come up with themselves\n\n155\n00:07:59.820 --> 00:08:00.500\nis much\n\n156\n00:08:00.500 --> 00:08:07.660\nbetter than an idea that you tell somebody to do. Because if somebody comes up\n\n157\n00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:08.100\nwith an\n\n158\n00:08:08.100 --> 00:08:14.940\nidea, basis the questions you ask, and it's a good idea, they own that idea.\n\n159\n00:08:14.940 --> 00:08:15.500\nThey believe\n\n160\n00:08:15.500 --> 00:08:19.740\nin that idea and they will execute the heck out of it.\n\n161\n00:08:19.740 --> 00:08:26.240\nBeing a boss doesn't mean telling people what to do in today's world. Being a\n\n162\n00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:27.100\nboss is what\n\n163\n00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:33.690\nI think the 1950s, early 60s leaders really saw themselves as. The leaders in\n\n164\n00:08:33.690 --> 00:08:34.740\nthis century\n\n165\n00:08:34.740 --> 00:08:41.120\nand in this decade see themselves as a coach if they're a good leader. And, you\n\n166\n00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:41.460\nknow, they\n\n167\n00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:46.240\nunderstand that their job is to develop other people and help them achieve\n\n168\n00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:47.860\ntheir full potential.\n\n169\n00:08:47.860 --> 00:08:52.280\nAnd that's how the business is really going to grow versus putting themselves\n\n170\n00:08:52.280 --> 00:08:53.020\non a pedestal\n\n171\n00:08:53.020 --> 00:08:58.860\nas the boss is the all knowing person that has all the answers. You know, it's\n\n172\n00:08:58.860 --> 00:08:59.460\ninteresting.\n\n173\n00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:04.890\nI think about this. I worked in the advertising agency business and there was\n\n174\n00:09:04.890 --> 00:09:05.740\nthis creative\n\n175\n00:09:05.740 --> 00:09:11.180\ndirector we had. It was Ian Fonmead. He was a British guy. But he talked about\n\n176\n00:09:11.180 --> 00:09:11.580\nthe third\n\n177\n00:09:11.580 --> 00:09:20.510\nidea. And the third idea was this is he said you have put a rational idea\n\n178\n00:09:20.510 --> 00:09:20.660\ntogether with\n\n179\n00:09:20.660 --> 00:09:28.510\nan emotional idea and you come up with the idea that matters the most. It's the\n\n180\n00:09:28.510 --> 00:09:28.940\nidea\n\n181\n00:09:28.940 --> 00:09:36.280\nyou come up with as a consumer when you see the ad. Because basically selling\n\n182\n00:09:36.280 --> 00:09:38.500\nisn't telling.\n\n183\n00:09:38.500 --> 00:09:43.480\nSelling is when you present something in a way where everybody gets it and gets\n\n184\n00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:43.860\nwhat\n\n185\n00:09:43.860 --> 00:09:49.110\nyou want them to get and then wants it for themselves or wants it for other\n\n186\n00:09:49.110 --> 00:09:50.020\npeople.\n\n187\n00:09:50.020 --> 00:09:51.900\nAnd that's just the way it works.\n\n188\n00:09:51.900 --> 00:09:58.500\nThis idea of going from boss to coach for me is really like going from discipl\n\n189\n00:09:58.500 --> 00:09:59.300\ninarian\n\n190\n00:09:59.300 --> 00:10:03.330\nto guide people that work for you don't want to be disciplined. They don't want\n\n191\n00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:03.900\nto be told\n\n192\n00:10:03.900 --> 00:10:09.900\nwhat to do. It's almost like you're a toddler being parented by a disciplin\n\n193\n00:10:09.900 --> 00:10:11.340\narian style parent.\n\n194\n00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:17.940\nThey want to be led and guided into growth and development and into more and\n\n195\n00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:19.740\nmore confidence.\n\n196\n00:10:19.740 --> 00:10:24.700\nAnd the way you do that, David, you said it so beautifully is offer people a\n\n197\n00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:25.420\nway to grow\n\n198\n00:10:25.420 --> 00:10:29.690\nand develop and really come into their full potential. So I love thinking about\n\n199\n00:10:29.690 --> 00:10:30.900\nthis coach\n\n200\n00:10:30.900 --> 00:10:35.230\nas a guide. You want someone to show you how to get better, stronger, more\n\n201\n00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:35.980\nconfident,\n\n202\n00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:39.700\nmore capable. And that's what great coaches do.\n\n203\n00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:42.940\nYou know, cool. I really never really thought about a coach as being a guide.\n\n204\n00:10:42.940 --> 00:10:43.260\nBut that's\n\n205\n00:10:43.260 --> 00:10:46.600\na great way to think about it. You know, a disciplinarian does just basically\n\n206\n00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:47.060\ntell you\n\n207\n00:10:47.060 --> 00:10:53.540\nwhat to do and, you know, has a standard set and you know, but a guide points\n\n208\n00:10:53.540 --> 00:10:54.060\nyou in a\n\n209\n00:10:54.060 --> 00:10:59.510\ndirection gives you some help along the way. And you can know you can go to him\n\n210\n00:10:59.510 --> 00:10:59.900\nif you\n\n211\n00:10:59.900 --> 00:11:04.290\nrun into trouble and you get to the end game a lot faster with a lot more\n\n212\n00:11:04.290 --> 00:11:05.300\ncommitment in\n\n213\n00:11:05.300 --> 00:11:13.940\nthe end. So I love that analogy. It's very good.\n\n214\n00:11:13.940 --> 00:11:17.750\nThanks again for tuning into another episode of How Leaders Lead. We're on a\n\n215\n00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:18.180\nmission to\n\n216\n00:11:18.180 --> 00:11:21.550\nmake the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve\n\n217\n00:11:21.550 --> 00:11:22.060\nout a little\n\n218\n00:11:22.060 --> 00:11:25.630\ntime with us each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need\n\n219\n00:11:25.630 --> 00:11:25.980\nto lead\n\n220\n00:11:25.980 --> 00:11:26.980\nwell.\n\n221\n00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:30.990\nAnd tune in this Thursday for my conversation with Liz Elting, former CEO of\n\n222\n00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:32.340\nTransPerfect.\n\n223\n00:11:32.340 --> 00:11:37.050\nA language translation solutions company, she grew into a billion dollar\n\n224\n00:11:37.050 --> 00:11:37.940\nbusiness.\n\n225\n00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:43.570\nYou know, it's a great way to build a business. It's a great way to build a\n\n226\n00:11:43.570 --> 00:11:44.940\nbusiness. And, you know, it's a great way to build a business.\n\n227\n00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:46.940\nThank you.\n\n228\n00:11:46.940 --> 00:12:13.520\nThe sound of the audience is very loud.\n","

Koula Callahan 0:04

Welcome to How leaders lead. I'm cola Callahan here to bring you another edition of three more questions with David Novak. David, we've got a fun one to dive into today.

David Novak 0:12

That's right cooler. Today, we're going to take a deeper dive into the conversation that I had with Michael Bungay Stanier. Now, Michaels, the founder of Box of Crayons, which is a very creative name for a very creative guy. It's a leadership development company that teaches people how to tap into the power of curiosity. Now, Michael is also the author of a best selling book that I highly recommend the Coaching Habit. So there's a lot to be learned from that podcast. And I can't wait to answer the three questions that you have for me today. So throw me the high hard ones. Let's get going.

Koula Callahan 0:54

Question number one, the paradigm shift that Michael really offers leaders is this Stay curious longer and jumped into action and advice giving much slower? David, was there a time in your career that you feel like you did this? Well, and maybe a time in your career where you didn't do this so well, early on

David Novak 1:15

in my career, I did not do it very well. Because when you become a leader, you become in charge of a group of people, and they're your responsibility. You have all this built up pressure to really show people why you should be in that job and how smart you are and why they should be looking to you for for advice. So very often back then I'd give people advice before I knew what they had to say about a particular issue. So that's when I didn't do it. Well, the more I matured as a leader, the more I realized that you could get a heck of a lot more if you just stayed quiet for a longer period of time, you went around the room, you asked everybody what they thought, what their issues were, what they thought that we needed to do to do something better, what the potential pitfalls could be, you know, all those kinds of questions, but really, really be a good listener. And be curious about what people have to say about a particular subject, and then weigh in, you need to remember that if you're the leader, you will ultimately have the decision making power for the team. So weigh in, after everybody's had a chance to really get their points across. Because what this will really drive is, is involvement. And when you have involvement, you have commitment. And you know, that took me a while to learn. But as I grew into my leadership roles, I got better and better at it. And I have to tell you, it's something I think every one of us has to fight. I think Michael called it the advice monster, you know, we we have this monster inside of us that just really wants us to give people advice. And way before we should.

Koula Callahan 2:59

The advice monster is an amazing metaphor that he gives that voice inside all of us as leaders, that just wants to jump in and solve the problem and do all the work for everybody else. But I think, David, it's so important for leaders to offer space to other people, so that they can continue to learn and grow as well. Because if you're the one figuring everything out for them, then it doesn't offer them a chance to to grow and develop in ways that they could if you just got curious about what they had to say and how they see solutions to problems. Question number two. Another insight Michel offers is that leaders should enable others to figure out the problems that need to be solved and then come up with the creative solution to solve it. He says for leaders, if someone has an idea that's 85% as good as your idea, it's 100% a win for you. What are ways that leaders can create space for other people to thrive and tame that voice inside of them that wants to control everything.

David Novak 4:05

The advice monster in me has one piece of advice he wants to give. And that is this. It's two words, suspend judgment. Just suspend judgment, let things play out. You know, so many ideas get killed before they've had any kind of opportunity to develop, select people get their ideas out and build on him. And then you can take that 85% to 100%. But if you start out by judging everything that comes out and say Nah, that won't work that will work. Oh, you just squash creativity. And that's the worst thing you can do.

Koula Callahan 4:51

It also goes back to what you shared earlier about listening. I think offering people space by simply not talking and Not always being the first to share your point of view or your opinion on something, is a really great practice that every leader can do. And, you know, if you're listening to this episode, and you're a founder, and you want everything to be done exactly the way that you want it to be done, I think there's a lot to learn. And this statement of an idea being 85%, as good as yours, you can also take that to 100%, like you said, but if something is 85%, as good as the way that you want it to be done, it's usually going to be done pretty well,

David Novak 5:30

I think the real point is, is that the 85% will become 100%. Because you want 100%, you don't want 85%, you know, I don't care who's you can't fake it and all that 85%, that's as good as by 100%? No, it's not. But together, you can get to 100%, together, the team can get 100%, but you got to give credit to that 85%. And really celebrate that 85% For being something that's really powerful, and maybe something you wouldn't have come up with, you know, there gets to be a point in your life as a leader where you have to celebrate other people's ideas as much as your own. When that happens, you get so many more ideas. And the other thing is, is that the reason why I say suspend judgment is such an important concept is that as a leader, a lot of times we think our job is the judge, and you don't want the judge inside of all of us, I think gets us in trouble yet you want to make decisions. And that's good judgment comes into play. But what you don't want to be doing is walking around judging everybody and everything that you hear. There's a big difference. You know, you want to really understand what people are thinking what their ideas are, and make really high quality decisions. And that's when your judgment comes into play.

Koula Callahan 7:02

Question number three, Michael wrote a book called The Coaching Habit, and it's sold over a million copies. And like you, David, Michael is passionate about leaders becoming great coaches, mainly because of how it shifts power. Instead of telling someone what to do. A great coach asked questions that empower people to take responsibility and figure things out themselves. Now, a lot of people talk about the importance of coaching as a boss. And I want to hear from you, David, can you offer our listeners some practical ways to shift their mindset from being a boss to being a coach?

David Novak 7:37

Well, one thing that I really believe is that telling isn't selling. Yeah, telling people what to do, is just not a very good way to convince them to do it. Because of this, one simple reason is that any idea that you can help people come up with themselves, is much better than an idea that you tell somebody to do. Because if somebody comes up with an idea basis, the questions you ask, and it's a good idea, they own that idea. They believe in that idea, and they will execute the heck out of it. Being a boss doesn't mean telling people what to do in today's world. Being a boss is what I think the 1950s early 60s leaders really saw themselves as the leaders in this century, and in this decade, see themselves as a coach, if they're a good leader. And you know, they understand that their job is to develop other people, and help them achieve their full potential. And that's how the business is really going to grow, versus putting themselves on a pedestal as the boss is the All Knowing person that has all the answers. You know, it's interesting, I think about this, I worked in the advertising agency business. And there was this creative director we had is in Fond Mead, he was a British guy. But he talked about the third idea. And the third idea of is this is he said, You have put a rational idea together with an emotional idea. And you come up with the idea that matters the most is the idea you come up with as a consumer when you see the ad, because basically selling isn't telling. Selling is when you present something in a way where everybody gets it and gets what you want them to get and then wants it for themselves or wants it for other people. And that's just the way it works.

Koula Callahan 9:51

This idea of going from boss to coach for me, is really like going from disciplinarian to Guy Do people that work for you don't want to be disciplined, they don't want to be told what to do. It's almost like you're a toddler being parented by a disciplinarian style parent, they want to be led and guided into growth and development and into more and more confidence. And the way you do that, David, you said it so beautifully is offer people a way to grow and develop and really come into their full potential. So I love thinking about this coach, as a guide, you want someone to show you how to get better, stronger, more confident, more capable. And that's what great coaches do.

David Novak 10:39

You know, cool. I really never really thought about a coach as being a guide. But it's a great way to think about it. You know, a disciplinarian does just basically tell you what to do. And you know, has a standard set and a rah rah rah rah, you know, but a guide points you in a direction gives you some help along the way. And you can know you can go to him if you run into trouble, and you get to the end game a lot faster with a lot more commitment in the end. So I love that analogy. It's very good.

Koula Callahan 11:13

Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead. We're on a mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And if you carve out a little time with us each and every week, we'll help you build the confidence you need to lead well,

David Novak 11:26

and tune in this Thursday for my conversation with Liz altin, former CEO of transperfect, a language translation solutions company. She grew into a billion dollar business

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