[{"_1":2,"_3":-5,"_4":-5},"loaderData",{"_5":6,"_7":8},"actionData","errors","root",{"_298":-5,"_299":-5,"_300":301,"_302":303,"_304":305},"routes/clips.$id.$slug",{"_9":10,"_11":12,"_13":14,"_15":16,"_17":18,"_19":20},"clip",{"_23":240,"_25":241,"_242":-5,"_31":243,"_33":-5,"_187":244,"_186":245,"_29":246,"_34":247,"_248":249,"_106":250,"_107":251,"_59":60,"_43":44,"_62":252,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_69":253,"_89":-5,"_90":254,"_255":256,"_100":-5},"moreDailies",[21,22],"leaderDailyTotal",2,"moreClips",[],"leaderClipTotal",0,"canonicalUrl","https://howleaderslead.com/clips/3250/sometimes-its-ok-to-be-a-fast-follower-rather-than-a-trailblazer",{"_23":192,"_25":193,"_27":194,"_29":-5,"_31":195,"_33":-5,"_34":196,"_36":-5,"_37":-5,"_38":197,"_40":198,"_42":-5,"_43":44,"_45":46,"_47":199,"_49":-5,"_50":-5,"_51":-5,"_52":-5,"_54":-5,"_55":200,"_57":-5,"_59":60,"_61":18,"_62":201,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_67":202,"_69":203,"_71":204,"_73":205,"_75":206,"_77":207,"_79":208,"_81":209,"_83":210,"_85":211,"_87":212,"_89":-5,"_90":213,"_92":214,"_94":215,"_96":-5,"_97":216,"_99":-5,"_100":-5},{"_23":24,"_25":26,"_27":28,"_29":30,"_31":32,"_33":-5,"_34":35,"_36":-5,"_37":-5,"_38":39,"_40":41,"_42":-5,"_43":44,"_45":46,"_47":48,"_49":-5,"_50":-5,"_51":-5,"_52":53,"_54":-5,"_55":56,"_57":58,"_59":60,"_61":18,"_62":63,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_67":68,"_69":70,"_71":72,"_73":74,"_75":76,"_77":78,"_79":80,"_81":82,"_83":84,"_85":86,"_87":88,"_89":-5,"_90":91,"_92":93,"_94":95,"_96":-5,"_97":98,"_99":-5,"_100":-5},"id",718,"title","Tough personnel conversations start with empathy","copy","When someone isn’t performing, start by understanding what’s going on beneath the surface. That kind of empathy helps you coach more effectively.","keywords","empathy, personnel conversations, difficult conversations, feedback, respect","transcript","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.680\nYou're a team member, you're really smart, you got all the talent and you're\n\n2\n00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:04.560\nnot playing ball\n\n3\n00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:09.440\nin your company. What's your coaching process for a person like that?\n\n4\n00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:15.590\nFirst opportunity is to talk to them honestly, try and find out what's driving\n\n5\n00:00:15.590 --> 00:00:16.640\nthe inconsistency\n\n6\n00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.230\nin their behavior. And sometimes it's issues away from the workplace that they\n\n7\n00:00:21.230 --> 00:00:22.240\n're battling with.\n\n8\n00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:26.960\nAnd I think an insight into the individual and the challenges that they faced\n\n9\n00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:28.000\nwith and demonstrating\n\n10\n00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:33.440\nempathy folds trust and trust allows you to deliver some of the tough messages\n\n11\n00:00:33.440 --> 00:00:34.560\nwithout it appearing as\n\n12\n00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:39.960\nthough that you're trying to get them out. Because deep inside the people that\n\n13\n00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:40.640\nI've worked with,\n\n14\n00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:46.350\nthe good human is there. It's sometimes blocked by other issues that they may\n\n15\n00:00:46.350 --> 00:00:47.440\nbe struggling with.\n\n16\n00:00:47.440 --> 00:00:52.000\nAnd it may even be my management style. But if you allow them to articulate it\n\n17\n00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:52.400\nand you find\n\n18\n00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:55.870\nways to be able to address it, the mentorship model and the ability to coach\n\n19\n00:00:55.870 --> 00:00:56.640\nthem is just that\n\n20\n00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.770\nmuch easier, but that doesn't mean you can't deliver tough messages as in when\n\n21\n00:01:00.770 --> 00:01:01.680\nthey're required.\n","pretty_transcript","slug","tough-personnel-conversations-start-with-empathy","push_notification_title","push_notification_copy","hubspot_id","50378112592","video_media_id",3535,"clip_id","episode_id",420,"created_from_clip",false,"vertical_video_media_id",3536,"vertical_image_media_id","vertical_crop_position","vertical_zoom","vertical_crop_segments",[182,183],"image_media_id","publish_date","2026-03-30","playlist_id",5,"leader_id",268,"is_archived","updated_at","2026-09-21T21:43:45.000000Z","meta_title","meta_description","og_image_media_id","video_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/LpjKWGw86morUJMb58c68j3Adf2MJ5tMi9hJTKCS.mp4","web_url","https://www.howleaderslead.com/dailies/718/tough-personnel-conversations-start-with-empathy?autoplay=1&daily=718","image_url","https://image.mux.com/sMWioHF00jepJiYI5JBR1CVxKrTviq4P4L2I3BW00auBY/thumbnail.png?width=1280&height=720","video_mux_playback_id","sMWioHF00jepJiYI5JBR1CVxKrTviq4P4L2I3BW00auBY","duration",61375,"video_preview_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/media-previews/3535.gif","vertical_video_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/dailies-vertical/718.mp4?v=1790027070","vertical_video_mux_playback_id","cmLlGbovFuEHg9Nkw2koq8ZpccZTIKmg00D01JwMj9011o","vertical_image_url","https://image.mux.com/cmLlGbovFuEHg9Nkw2koq8ZpccZTIKmg00D01JwMj9011o/thumbnail.png?time=0&width=1080&height=1920","topic_id",7,"topic",{"_23":86,"_25":128,"_123":124,"_125":181},"og_image_url","leader",{"_23":60,"_130":131,"_132":133,"_134":135,"_29":136,"_137":138,"_123":18,"_139":18,"_140":46,"_54":141,"_142":143,"_62":144,"_145":-5,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_71":146,"_147":148,"_69":149,"_150":151,"_152":153,"_89":-5,"_154":155,"_156":157,"_96":158,"_159":160,"_100":-5},"topics",[119,120],"video_media",{"_23":41,"_101":113,"_103":68,"_104":-5,"_106":74,"_107":114,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":76,"_112":115,"_116":117},"image_media","vertical_video_media",{"_23":48,"_101":102,"_103":80,"_104":105,"_106":82,"_107":108,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":111,"_112":-5},"vertical_image_media","og_image_media","filename","dailies-vertical/718.mp4","url","status","ready","mux_playback_id","mux_asset_id","if01GOBX201w02WdqnH8JLK85bOaS4jvS5Rx36ZMzbUhq4","mux_upload_id","waveform_url",61458,"preview_media_id","LpjKWGw86morUJMb58c68j3Adf2MJ5tMi9hJTKCS.mp4","qo5hxTBFld9FclEuVuI96tcvyTJjAP5aN1bap7NbdwI",3537,"preview_media",{"_23":115,"_101":118,"_103":78,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},"3535.gif",{"_23":86,"_25":128,"_123":124,"_125":129},{"_23":121,"_25":122,"_123":124,"_125":126},48,"Feedback","is_featured",true,"pivot",{"_127":24,"_85":121},"daily_id","Talent Management",{"_127":24,"_85":86},"first_name","Peter","last_name","Wharton-Hood","job_title","Life Healthcare Group, CEO","Peter Wharton Hood, healthcare, CEO, LIFE healthcare","external_links","https://za.linkedin.com/in/peter-wharton-hood-981596194,https://www.lifehealthcare.co.za/investor-relations/our-directors/","is_pinned","is_hidden",3454,"thumbnail_image_media_id",3455,"2026-07-20T20:35:20.000000Z","send_push_notification_at","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/P5xIUrdWjwLhTxrBzLkWqGwJaoGhe3A3bkqC2LfQ.jpg","thumbnail_image_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/w1I92AQJ1fB6ft8eKv4m7TUCDwXqPNbtV9LZaGoK.jpg","https://www.howleaderslead.com/leaders/268/peter-wharton-hood","industry_id",9,"industry",{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":180},"industries",[177],"companies",[163],{"_23":141,"_101":162,"_103":146,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},"thumbnail_image_media",{"_23":143,"_101":161,"_103":148,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},"w1I92AQJ1fB6ft8eKv4m7TUCDwXqPNbtV9LZaGoK.jpg","P5xIUrdWjwLhTxrBzLkWqGwJaoGhe3A3bkqC2LfQ.jpg",{"_23":164,"_165":166,"_137":167,"_168":169,"_170":171,"_125":172,"_173":174},246,"name","Life Healthcare Group","https://www.lifehealthcare.co.za/,https://za.linkedin.com/company/life-healthcare,https://www.facebook.com/lifehealthcare/,https://x.com/lifehealthcare","logo_media_id",3453,"logo_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/Ed6lxoAy6EW6irSFXPo0fD0HoQNoiLgWMvccDWma.png",{"_59":60,"_176":164},"logo_media",{"_23":169,"_101":175,"_103":171,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},"Ed6lxoAy6EW6irSFXPo0fD0HoQNoiLgWMvccDWma.png","company_id",{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":179},"Business and Consulting",{"_59":60,"_150":151},{"_59":60,"_150":151},{"_127":24,"_85":86},{"_184":185,"_186":188,"_187":18,"_189":191},{"_184":185,"_186":76,"_187":188,"_189":190},"zoom",1,"end_time","start_time",9643,"crop_position",0.5,0.12,810,"Treat AI as one perspective among many","Think of AI as just one more voice in the room. Let it give you new insights and perspectives that guide your own thinking, not replace it.","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.840\nI've also become intrigued by the level of curiosity that you can express and\n\n2\n00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:04.320\nthe questions\n\n3\n00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:09.990\nthat you can ask because you can ask what might be a dumb question in private\n\n4\n00:00:09.990 --> 00:00:10.960\nand at least see\n\n5\n00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.800\nwhat answer comes back before you embarrass yourself publicly but it's just\n\n6\n00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:15.520\nanother moment\n\n7\n00:00:15.520 --> 00:00:19.720\nto be able to get an opinion. I think that a diverse team, a diverse board has\n\n8\n00:00:19.720 --> 00:00:21.200\ngot a multiplicity\n\n9\n00:00:21.200 --> 00:00:25.680\nof backgrounds, assumptions and ways of seeing questions answered and I think\n\n10\n00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:26.240\nyou've got to give\n\n11\n00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:30.090\nAI an opportunity as well so it's another member in a team from an executive\n\n12\n00:00:30.090 --> 00:00:31.360\nperspective where it's\n\n13\n00:00:31.360 --> 00:00:36.580\nit's not unreasonable to ask the question but you can't abdicate and you can't\n\n14\n00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:37.680\nbe driven by it\n\n15\n00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:41.280\nbecause eventually there's a reversion to a normal where everyone's got the\n\n16\n00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:41.920\nsame weapon\n\n17\n00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:45.030\nand we're all going to look the same if we constantly think about AI the same\n\n18\n00:00:45.030 --> 00:00:47.520\nway so use it but next\n\n19\n00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.960\nthat show you don't stop thinking and so try and see what age is that creates.\n","treat-ai-as-one-perspective-among-many","58695994662",4091,4094,"2026-07-18","2026-07-13T18:14:46.000000Z","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/TwJI2tWYwPhdy3Z0K1BWTIWLCH3GKKHXkDyEZWNU.mp4","https://www.howleaderslead.com/dailies/810/treat-ai-as-one-perspective-among-many?autoplay=1&daily=810","https://image.mux.com/mpGArTzuhSS6OK7MZ01tNHMjVwBTXo3rgWbpQlAUw2t00/thumbnail.png?width=1280&height=720","mpGArTzuhSS6OK7MZ01tNHMjVwBTXo3rgWbpQlAUw2t00",51083,"https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/media-previews/4091.gif","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/wnbeVMHFP5w9LDEDo7ljJCd2sfEKhfXdDpzi85sO.mp4","zi3AeAiXbmaluMbMDICGJWbjn4jzzbJOetViotN5Xbk","https://image.mux.com/zi3AeAiXbmaluMbMDICGJWbjn4jzzbJOetViotN5Xbk/thumbnail.png?time=0&width=1080&height=1920",42,{"_23":211,"_25":226,"_123":124,"_125":239},{"_23":60,"_130":131,"_132":133,"_134":135,"_29":136,"_137":138,"_123":18,"_139":18,"_140":46,"_54":141,"_142":143,"_62":144,"_145":-5,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_71":146,"_147":148,"_69":149,"_150":151,"_152":228,"_89":-5,"_154":229,"_156":230,"_96":231,"_159":232,"_100":-5},[225],{"_23":198,"_101":220,"_103":202,"_104":105,"_106":205,"_107":221,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":206,"_112":222,"_116":223},{"_23":199,"_101":217,"_103":208,"_104":105,"_106":209,"_107":218,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":219,"_112":-5},"wnbeVMHFP5w9LDEDo7ljJCd2sfEKhfXdDpzi85sO.mp4","qbISecmx5OLAKWq7T6yk74wu7I8dQZkdmpCR01U0202L2E",51125,"TwJI2tWYwPhdy3Z0K1BWTIWLCH3GKKHXkDyEZWNU.mp4","DGmjD37kzD8HWEsdhIwxjttPX8OBRpMLWgqU4fqcUNY",4097,{"_23":222,"_101":224,"_103":207,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},"4091.gif",{"_23":211,"_25":226,"_123":124,"_125":227},"AI",{"_127":192,"_85":211},{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":238},[236],[233],{"_23":141,"_101":162,"_103":146,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},{"_23":143,"_101":161,"_103":148,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},{"_23":164,"_165":166,"_137":167,"_168":169,"_170":171,"_125":234,"_173":235},{"_59":60,"_176":164},{"_23":169,"_101":175,"_103":171,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":237},{"_59":60,"_150":151},{"_59":60,"_150":151},{"_127":192,"_85":211},3250,"Sometimes it’s OK to be a fast follower rather than a trailblazer","subtitle","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.360\nAnd what we see now is that the technology edge,\n\n2\n00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:07.040\nand we as a corporation are currently behind the technology frontier,\n\n3\n00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:10.320\nis moving that quickly, that the deliberate bet we are taking,\n\n4\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:15.200\nis to stall the implementations that the market is suggesting are obvious.\n\n5\n00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.960\nOn the basis that we think the technology is going to move that much quicker,\n\n6\n00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:23.200\nthat it'll be cheaper in a year's time and probably much easier to implement.\n\n7\n00:00:23.200 --> 00:00:27.920\nAnd you only have to have the look what's happened in AI in the last six months\n\n8\n00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:30.480\nto realize that this curve is moving really, really quickly.\n\n9\n00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:35.600\nSo I'm an outlier in the decision by resisting the change and the momentum,\n\n10\n00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:39.120\nknowing that there comes a stage we're going to have to be a very, very fast\n\n11\n00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:39.920\nfollower.\n\n12\n00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:42.800\nAnd hopefully that strategy succeeds.\n",2345279,2387479,"Technology, strategy, AI, fast follower","sometimes-its-ok-to-be-a-fast-follower-rather-than-a-trailblazer","origin","cms","N6oWeDjqetc8c2XpJtqDjXpXborkJ02hQfNQ00YojMlSg","pIBYfY6kPrpbMBqWoZ1cFv02pjtp01J7ha00NrQA019dRk8","2026-03-12T15:59:48.000000Z","https://www.howleaderslead.com/clips/3250/sometimes-its-ok-to-be-a-fast-follower-rather-than-a-trailblazer",{"_23":60,"_130":131,"_132":133,"_134":135,"_29":136,"_137":138,"_123":18,"_139":18,"_140":46,"_54":141,"_142":143,"_62":144,"_145":-5,"_64":-5,"_65":-5,"_66":-5,"_71":146,"_147":148,"_69":149,"_150":151,"_152":291,"_89":-5,"_154":292,"_96":293,"_159":294,"_100":-5},"episode",{"_23":44,"_25":257,"_34":258,"_242":259,"_260":261,"_31":262,"_33":-5,"_139":46,"_263":-5,"_123":46,"_264":-5,"_265":266,"_267":268,"_40":-5,"_142":-5,"_269":270,"_271":272,"_273":274,"_59":60,"_62":275,"_64":-5,"_65":276,"_66":-5,"_277":278,"_279":280,"_281":282,"_283":284,"_67":-5,"_73":-5,"_75":285,"_286":287,"_147":-5,"_89":-5,"_288":289,"_94":-5,"_159":-5,"_100":-5},"Pick team players over individual performers","pick-team-players-over-individual-performers","Individually brilliant people who can't play on a team will hurt you more than help you. Pick team players first, even if it means passing on someone with exceptional talent.","summary","

Peter Wharton-Hood became CEO of LIFE Healthcare in August 2020 – right in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic – with no healthcare experience.

He was an accomplished banking executive, but he had zero context for what it takes to run a hospital. And it was his job to lead 16,000 healthcare workers through a generational crisis.

But Peter stepped into the role with a team-first philosophy that’s shaped his whole career. His people are his priority. He puts the team’s best interest before his own, and he isn’t afraid to cut a top performer if they aren’t a team player.

This episode will help you think differently about what really matters when building a team, and it’ll give you the courage to make the hard calls that great team culture requires.

You’ll also learn:

The most important factor when making a career move (most people miss it)
A fun exercise you can use to bring your team into the vision and strategy process
How to have a tough personnel conversation
Why you may NOT want to be a tech trailblazer

","WEBVTT\n\n1\n00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.080\nHello, friends, and welcome to another edition of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n2\n00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:05.280\nNovak. Today,\n\n3\n00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.440\nwe have Peter Wharton Hood on the show. Peter is the CEO of Life Healthcare,\n\n4\n00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:10.320\nand he took over\n\n5\n00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:15.680\nin August of 2020, right in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Now, Peter was\n\n6\n00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:16.240\nan accomplished\n\n7\n00:00:16.240 --> 00:00:20.320\nbanking executive, but he had no healthcare experience and zero context for\n\n8\n00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:21.040\nwhat it took\n\n9\n00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:25.840\nto run a hospital. Yet it was his job to lead 16,000 healthcare workers through\n\n10\n00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:26.720\nthis generational\n\n11\n00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:31.930\ncrisis. Peter stepped into that role with a team-first philosophy, and that\n\n12\n00:00:31.930 --> 00:00:32.880\nreally has shaped his\n\n13\n00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:36.700\nentire career. In this episode, you'll learn how to think differently about\n\n14\n00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:37.680\nwhat really matters\n\n15\n00:00:37.680 --> 00:00:41.920\nwhen building a team, and you'll gain from Peter the courage to make hard calls\n\n16\n00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:42.880\nthat great team\n\n17\n00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:47.410\nculture requires. Enjoy this episode with David and Peter, and I'll see you at\n\n18\n00:00:47.410 --> 00:00:48.240\nthe end of the\n\n19\n00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:58.190\nepisode for the debrief. It's great to have a conversation with one of the\n\n20\n00:00:58.190 --> 00:01:00.160\nhappiest guys I know.\n\n21\n00:01:00.160 --> 00:01:04.640\nI mean, you've always got a smile on your face. What makes you so happy?\n\n22\n00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:08.960\nHe tells me, what an interesting way of starting a conversation. I think it's\n\n23\n00:01:08.960 --> 00:01:09.840\nthe way that I was\n\n24\n00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:15.050\nraised by my mother. I think in the context of how you wake up, each day is a\n\n25\n00:01:15.050 --> 00:01:17.520\ngift. And if you\n\n26\n00:01:17.520 --> 00:01:20.760\npositive in the way you approach the day, lots of people are positive around\n\n27\n00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:21.840\nyou. And I think that\n\n28\n00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:26.150\njust feeds on itself. So not mind, it's the positive, but I just, yes, I'm a\n\n29\n00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:26.960\nhappy guy.\n\n30\n00:01:26.960 --> 00:01:32.170\nYou are. You are happy, guys. Is there anything you do to get yourself into\n\n31\n00:01:32.170 --> 00:01:33.040\nthat frame of mind\n\n32\n00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:37.200\nbefore you go to work? No, I think it's just been years of repeating the same\n\n33\n00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:37.840\npractice of\n\n34\n00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.930\nsurrounding myself with people that are really careful, that care for me, and\n\n35\n00:01:41.930 --> 00:01:42.560\nthat gets me off\n\n36\n00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.760\nto a good start each day. I heard a story about you that you once dyed your\n\n37\n00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:47.840\nhair blue\n\n38\n00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:53.120\nto motivate your team. Tell us that story. I guess you do things when you're\n\n39\n00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:53.760\nyoung without\n\n40\n00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:58.060\nthinking. But the instinct in those particular moments was we were the subject\n\n41\n00:01:58.060 --> 00:01:58.960\nof a really hostile\n\n42\n00:01:58.960 --> 00:02:04.170\ntakeover bid. In that particular moment, there was some desolation in the\n\n43\n00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:04.960\nmanagement team. Are we\n\n44\n00:02:04.960 --> 00:02:10.160\nin? Are we out? And sometimes you make a bold statement. And my bold statement\n\n45\n00:02:10.160 --> 00:02:10.160\nwas,\n\n46\n00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:17.360\nI'll show the teams around me that my blood was blue, and use that as an excuse\n\n47\n00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:17.760\nto tell them\n\n48\n00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:21.500\nthat my hair turned blue and turn it into a bit of a story. It's a bit of a\n\n49\n00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:22.880\nrisk to take when you,\n\n50\n00:02:22.880 --> 00:02:25.650\nnot the boss of the business, because you're not quite sure how the bosses are\n\n51\n00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:26.320\ngoing to react,\n\n52\n00:02:26.320 --> 00:02:32.220\nbut yes, I did do it. Why the blue color? That was the flag carrying color of\n\n53\n00:02:32.220 --> 00:02:32.800\nthe standard bank.\n\n54\n00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:38.010\nWe were always recognized as the blue bank. And I decided to use that thematic\n\n55\n00:02:38.010 --> 00:02:38.560\nthroughout the\n\n56\n00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:42.610\norganization that my blood was blue and it turned my hair blue and some\n\n57\n00:02:42.610 --> 00:02:43.920\nimportant.\n\n58\n00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:50.050\nYou know, you talk about moments. We tend to remember moments, not business as\n\n59\n00:02:50.050 --> 00:02:50.560\nusual.\n\n60\n00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:54.960\nWhen else have you deliberately gone against the grain or done something to\n\n61\n00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:55.760\nsort of shock\n\n62\n00:02:55.760 --> 00:03:00.970\nthe system to create a moment that your team will never forget? In those\n\n63\n00:03:00.970 --> 00:03:01.600\nparticular instances,\n\n64\n00:03:01.600 --> 00:03:06.900\nit's a question of the levels of maturity that existed at the time. We have\n\n65\n00:03:06.900 --> 00:03:08.000\ndone some,\n\n66\n00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:13.820\nI'm going to say different things, interviewing people late at night, having\n\n67\n00:03:13.820 --> 00:03:14.720\nepisodes where\n\n68\n00:03:14.720 --> 00:03:18.650\nthe management team of, you know, pushed a little bit beyond their comfort\n\n69\n00:03:18.650 --> 00:03:20.240\nzones by doing things in\n\n70\n00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.400\nextraordinary, in extraordinary circumstances. We were knitting a team together\n\n71\n00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:25.040\nand I got them\n\n72\n00:03:25.040 --> 00:03:32.480\nto do a firewall. HR executive looked at me like I'd lost it and I said, well,\n\n73\n00:03:32.480 --> 00:03:32.960\nwe're going to have\n\n74\n00:03:32.960 --> 00:03:38.780\nto walk through fire in a commercial sense. So let's do a firewall. And the top\n\n75\n00:03:38.780 --> 00:03:39.680\n50 executives\n\n76\n00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:44.890\nall had to walk across about 12 meters of hot calls. We were correctly trained.\n\n77\n00:03:44.890 --> 00:03:45.440\nBut yes,\n\n78\n00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:49.840\nwe put them through a firewall and it worked. It worked.\n\n79\n00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:54.000\nI'm glad it worked for you. I had a guy down in Australia do that once and they\n\n80\n00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.640\ndid the fire\n\n81\n00:03:54.640 --> 00:04:02.740\nwalk. And one guy ended up suing the company. So, you know, give me a snapshot\n\n82\n00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:03.840\nof, of life,\n\n83\n00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:09.050\nhealth care, and the business that you lead today. The business that I led in\n\n84\n00:04:09.050 --> 00:04:09.760\n2020 was\n\n85\n00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:14.970\nmulti-geography, 23 countries, multi-disciplined, large hospital business in\n\n86\n00:04:14.970 --> 00:04:15.680\nSouth Africa,\n\n87\n00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.680\nbig diagnostic and imaging business across Western Europe and in emerging\n\n88\n00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:24.800\nradiopharmaceutical business in the United States. And that, as exciting as\n\n89\n00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:25.520\nthat seemed,\n\n90\n00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:29.910\nit was an organization that was too complex. And the deliberate decision we\n\n91\n00:04:29.910 --> 00:04:31.120\ntook was to\n\n92\n00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.040\nsimplify the business and get it back to basics. And when I talk about basics,\n\n93\n00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:36.160\nwe're now a South\n\n94\n00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:42.790\nAfrican-focused hospital group. We have 42 large privately owned hospitals and\n\n95\n00:04:42.790 --> 00:04:44.480\naccount for about\n\n96\n00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:50.300\n16,000 nursing staff and have about 700,000 patient visits between the course\n\n97\n00:04:50.300 --> 00:04:50.800\nof ETA.\n\n98\n00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:56.560\nSo, it is a South African-focused hospital business now. Peter, how do you stay\n\n99\n00:04:56.560 --> 00:05:01.760\nin touch with the front line in that business? There are two ways of doing it\n\n100\n00:05:01.760 --> 00:05:02.480\nin this particular\n\n101\n00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.680\njob. I always believe sitting behind your desk is a dangerous place from which\n\n102\n00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:06.080\nto view the\n\n103\n00:05:06.080 --> 00:05:10.750\ncorporation. So, we have a federal model that runs the hospital business where\n\n104\n00:05:10.750 --> 00:05:11.360\nthe hospital\n\n105\n00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:16.640\nmanager actually has a team around him or her that is multi-disciplinary and\n\n106\n00:05:16.640 --> 00:05:17.360\neffectively runs\n\n107\n00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.890\nthe hospital as a largely independent unit by the same token. That means that\n\n108\n00:05:21.890 --> 00:05:22.480\nthe leadership\n\n109\n00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.190\nhave actually got to get their feet on the ground and they've actually got to\n\n110\n00:05:25.190 --> 00:05:26.080\nget to the hospital\n\n111\n00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:30.390\nunits themselves because hospitals are complex businesses. David, they have\n\n112\n00:05:30.390 --> 00:05:31.520\nlots of moving parts\n\n113\n00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:36.730\nand you can't just sit back and look at financial information. You actually\n\n114\n00:05:36.730 --> 00:05:37.600\nhave to get out there.\n\n115\n00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:43.120\nSo, I and the executive team spend time visiting the hospitals in real time to\n\n116\n00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:43.760\nmake sure that we\n\n117\n00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:47.770\nknow who those loyal people are that are making the businesses work. You know,\n\n118\n00:05:47.770 --> 00:05:48.480\nI've heard you say\n\n119\n00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:54.620\nthat you didn't choose healthcare that healthcare chose you. What do you mean\n\n120\n00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:56.000\nby that? It was one\n\n121\n00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.460\nof those moments where a whole lot of stars lined up. My wife had said to me\n\n122\n00:06:00.460 --> 00:06:02.000\nthat retirement was too\n\n123\n00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.240\nearly and that wasn't going to end well for me, which is an instruction to go\n\n124\n00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:05.920\nand find a job.\n\n125\n00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.560\nI had to take a step back and say what I was really looking for and I was\n\n126\n00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:12.880\nlooking for complexity.\n\n127\n00:06:12.880 --> 00:06:20.980\nI was looking for an industry that had high levels of regulatory involvement\n\n128\n00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:21.520\nand government\n\n129\n00:06:21.520 --> 00:06:25.600\nengagement. And I was also looking for something which was completely different\n\n130\n00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:26.240\nto banking.\n\n131\n00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:31.450\nAnd through a set of circumstances, one was considered advanced on the golf\n\n132\n00:06:31.450 --> 00:06:32.080\ncourse where I\n\n133\n00:06:32.080 --> 00:06:35.590\nwas pointed towards healthcare as being an industry that ticked all those boxes\n\n134\n00:06:35.590 --> 00:06:36.560\n. I was then locked\n\n135\n00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:41.090\nbehind my desk during COVID, so I decided to register for a course on the\n\n136\n00:06:41.090 --> 00:06:42.320\nHarvard EDX platform\n\n137\n00:06:42.320 --> 00:06:48.400\nin clinical safety systems, which was completely out of my skill set. And then\n\n138\n00:06:48.400 --> 00:06:48.960\nout of the blue,\n\n139\n00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:52.900\ngot a call from a headhunter suggesting that they were looking for a chief\n\n140\n00:06:52.900 --> 00:06:54.080\nexecutive of a healthcare\n\n141\n00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:58.280\ncompany. And whilst they considered my leadership credentials, they said, don't\n\n142\n00:06:58.280 --> 00:06:58.960\nget too excited.\n\n143\n00:06:58.960 --> 00:07:03.250\nWe're actually looking for a doctor to which my candid response was, well, if\n\n144\n00:07:03.250 --> 00:07:04.080\nyou're looking for\n\n145\n00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:09.200\na doctor to run it, then I'm clearly not the person. And they didn't speak to\n\n146\n00:07:09.200 --> 00:07:10.080\nme for six weeks, which\n\n147\n00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:15.900\nwas completely an understandable outcome. But then they did find me and asked\n\n148\n00:07:15.900 --> 00:07:17.760\nme to take the\n\n149\n00:07:17.760 --> 00:07:22.880\nindustry seriously. And in started doing without thinking, I was going to end\n\n150\n00:07:22.880 --> 00:07:23.840\nup there. I got\n\n151\n00:07:23.840 --> 00:07:28.160\ncaptured in a very positive way by the excitement that the industry presented\n\n152\n00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:28.880\nand the challenges\n\n153\n00:07:28.880 --> 00:07:33.030\nthat presented. And they were not considered myself extremely lucky to have\n\n154\n00:07:33.030 --> 00:07:34.080\nfound my way into the\n\n155\n00:07:34.080 --> 00:07:39.680\nindustry. So what did not being a doctor bring to you that helped you do your\n\n156\n00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:42.080\njob, then perhaps\n\n157\n00:07:42.080 --> 00:07:48.160\nbeing a doctor? I think it was a distinct advantage. Despite the conversations\n\n158\n00:07:48.160 --> 00:07:49.200\nI had with Dr. Toby\n\n159\n00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:54.410\nCosgrove through the process, where he explained to me how difficult it was\n\n160\n00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:55.600\ngoing to be not being a\n\n161\n00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:00.960\ndoctor. I actually think it helped me enormously because part of the leadership\n\n162\n00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:05.490\nrecipe that I've got is you have to concede the points that you don't know that\n\n163\n00:08:05.490 --> 00:08:06.560\nthe team around\n\n164\n00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.380\nyou is always going to be better than you are as an individual. And to put that\n\n165\n00:08:10.380 --> 00:08:10.800\ninto stark\n\n166\n00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:14.470\nrelief in health care by not being a doctor, I knew straight away, there was at\n\n167\n00:08:14.470 --> 00:08:15.440\nleast 20% of\n\n168\n00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:20.640\nthe hospital business that I knew absolutely nothing about. But the 80% around\n\n169\n00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:21.520\nprocess and\n\n170\n00:08:21.520 --> 00:08:25.210\ncorporate and financing and technology, I had a good handle on giving my\n\n171\n00:08:25.210 --> 00:08:26.160\nbanking background.\n\n172\n00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:31.980\nSo I think that listening humility was stock. It was a lot that I didn't know.\n\n173\n00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:32.800\nAnd they're in\n\n174\n00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:36.640\nallowed me to flourish as a leader by getting the right team around me.\n\n175\n00:08:36.640 --> 00:08:39.860\nThat's great. And I'm going to dig more into that later. But let's rewind for a\n\n176\n00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:40.400\nmoment.\n\n177\n00:08:40.400 --> 00:08:48.080\nYou know, you grew up in South Africa and tell us something from your childhood\n\n178\n00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:48.960\nthat shaped the\n\n179\n00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:53.120\nkind of leader you are today. You talked about your mother and how she taught\n\n180\n00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:54.560\nyou the positivity\n\n181\n00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:59.800\nthat you have. Is there a story that kind of got your leadership mindset in a\n\n182\n00:08:59.800 --> 00:09:01.600\ncertain direction?\n\n183\n00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:06.810\nI think the two aspects to it, both mom and dad, dad was a corporate executive\n\n184\n00:09:06.810 --> 00:09:07.600\nand ended up\n\n185\n00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.320\nrunning one of the biggest life insurance companies in South Africa. My mother\n\n186\n00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:11.840\nwas a nurse\n\n187\n00:09:12.800 --> 00:09:19.680\nand stayed as a nurse until retirement age of 65. And I think David, there were\n\n188\n00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:20.320\ntwo aspects\n\n189\n00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.610\nthat were brought to bear in the home environment. One was that hard work was\n\n190\n00:09:24.610 --> 00:09:26.640\nexpected. So I had\n\n191\n00:09:26.640 --> 00:09:32.880\ntwo hardworking parents. But I was a little guy and I got bullied at school.\n\n192\n00:09:32.880 --> 00:09:33.920\nAnd I think the\n\n193\n00:09:33.920 --> 00:09:38.050\ncontext within which how both mom and dad shaped my response to being bullied\n\n194\n00:09:38.050 --> 00:09:38.960\nwas important,\n\n195\n00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:44.480\nthat they didn't interfere, they didn't run to the headmaster and ask for\n\n196\n00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:45.360\ninterventions.\n\n197\n00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:51.200\nThey taught me to stand up for myself. And I think the combination of courage\n\n198\n00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:51.600\nthrough\n\n199\n00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:56.130\nhaving to persevere through tough times, but also backing that up with a hard\n\n200\n00:09:56.130 --> 00:09:57.120\nworking ethic\n\n201\n00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.600\nshaped the way that I then took on leadership positions later on in my life.\n\n202\n00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:07.370\nNow, as I understand it, you entered the working world just as South Africa was\n\n203\n00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:09.120\nending apartheid.\n\n204\n00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:14.940\nWhat did living through that level of national change teach you about\n\n205\n00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:16.880\nleadership early on in\n\n206\n00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:21.010\nyour career? There would be one, it looks what happened to this country in 1994\n\n207\n00:10:21.010 --> 00:10:22.240\n. I think it played\n\n208\n00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:27.450\nout in real time to see the most magnanimous gesture of one of the world's\n\n209\n00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:28.640\ngreatest leaders,\n\n210\n00:10:28.640 --> 00:10:34.850\nplay out right in your home country. The unselfishness with which Nelson\n\n211\n00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:35.760\nMandela led\n\n212\n00:10:35.760 --> 00:10:40.290\nthe change in this country will be written in annals of history forever. And to\n\n213\n00:10:40.290 --> 00:10:41.280\nwatch that take\n\n214\n00:10:41.280 --> 00:10:45.810\nshape in such an unselfish moment, and also then see the impact that it had in\n\n215\n00:10:45.810 --> 00:10:46.800\na positive way on\n\n216\n00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:52.620\nso many people, just exemplified the acceleration that great leadership can and\n\n217\n00:10:52.620 --> 00:10:53.520\nactually present\n\n218\n00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:58.050\nin difficult or seemingly impossible sets of circumstances. I think in that\n\n219\n00:10:58.050 --> 00:10:59.120\nsense, it's only\n\n220\n00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:03.340\nin all that you look at what people, Black Nelson Mandela, have achieved, but\n\n221\n00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:04.560\nit gives you the courage\n\n222\n00:11:04.560 --> 00:11:08.130\nto in actual fact see a country that has moved itself from what the world\n\n223\n00:11:08.130 --> 00:11:09.760\nthought was the brink\n\n224\n00:11:09.760 --> 00:11:14.970\nof anarchy into a flourishing rainbow nation. Again, there's positivity and\n\n225\n00:11:14.970 --> 00:11:15.440\nreinforcement that\n\n226\n00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.350\ngoes with it, but it does give you an acute sense of what can be achieved when\n\n227\n00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:20.480\npeople and nations\n\n228\n00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.720\nand teams put their minds to things. And how has that shaped just how you\n\n229\n00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:29.390\ndevelop leaders within your own company? I think the context within which you\n\n230\n00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:29.920\nlook at\n\n231\n00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:34.220\nindividuals is important, not everyone's made the same, and a dynamic team\n\n232\n00:11:34.220 --> 00:11:36.720\nrequires a multitude of\n\n233\n00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:42.160\ndifferent approaches to problems. It's easy to say diversity of individuals\n\n234\n00:11:42.160 --> 00:11:43.520\naround a team makes for\n\n235\n00:11:43.520 --> 00:11:49.040\na really dynamic environment, but it's actually a diversity in assumptions and\n\n236\n00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:50.160\nworking experiences\n\n237\n00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:55.370\nthat also gives you that ability to be able to bring power together by\n\n238\n00:11:55.370 --> 00:11:57.200\ncelebrating differences.\n\n239\n00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:01.140\nSo the rainbow nation of South Africa celebrates its differences multi-cult\n\n240\n00:12:01.140 --> 00:12:01.520\nurally,\n\n241\n00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:06.730\nand I think having a diverse team in a South African context goes without\n\n242\n00:12:06.730 --> 00:12:07.280\nsaying that it's\n\n243\n00:12:07.280 --> 00:12:10.610\nexpected versus leaders to be able to integrate, and I think the huge\n\n244\n00:12:10.610 --> 00:12:12.240\ncommercial advantage has come\n\n245\n00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:17.750\nfrom being able to integrate diverse views and opinions before decisions get\n\n246\n00:12:17.750 --> 00:12:18.640\ntaken. Makes a\n\n247\n00:12:18.640 --> 00:12:24.000\nlot of sense, and you know backgrounds are very important, and you started your\n\n248\n00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:24.640\ncareers in the\n\n249\n00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:29.080\naccountant, and you still describe yourself that way. What did being an\n\n250\n00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:30.400\naccountant train you\n\n251\n00:12:30.400 --> 00:12:36.720\nin terms of how you see yourself as a leader? I think everyone's going to have\n\n252\n00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:38.400\na sort of a go-to\n\n253\n00:12:38.400 --> 00:12:42.800\nor a safe place for which to make decisions, and I think comfort in numbers is\n\n254\n00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:43.440\nwhat was taught\n\n255\n00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:48.640\nto me as an accountant, that in the context of making bold decisions, make sure\n\n256\n00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:49.040\nyou understand\n\n257\n00:12:49.040 --> 00:12:53.280\nthe numbers, in the context of solving complex problems, follow the numbers,\n\n258\n00:12:53.280 --> 00:12:54.720\nand I think in\n\n259\n00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:59.010\nbanking where the numbers are pretty complex, that was the discipline that gave\n\n260\n00:12:59.010 --> 00:12:59.840\nme the bedrock\n\n261\n00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:03.790\nagainst which I could gain the confidence of knowing of which particular\n\n262\n00:13:03.790 --> 00:13:05.280\npremise big decisions needed\n\n263\n00:13:05.280 --> 00:13:10.800\nto be taken, made and adjudicated, and it also taught me process. So it's those\n\n264\n00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:11.600\ntwo skills that\n\n265\n00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.810\nI think gave me the opportunity to have a defining character or trade that I\n\n266\n00:13:16.810 --> 00:13:17.840\ncould bank on in really\n\n267\n00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:22.370\ndifficult times. Give me an example where you follow the numbers and it took\n\n268\n00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:23.920\nyou down the right path.\n\n269\n00:13:23.920 --> 00:13:30.480\nThe context really was the e-commerce evolution that was taking place early\n\n270\n00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.320\n2000s, the Santa\n\n271\n00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.360\nBank group at that particular juncture was a bricks and mortar bank, and the\n\n272\n00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.040\nability to be able to\n\n273\n00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.700\ndiverge away from basically just the bricks and mortar delivery mechanism in\n\n274\n00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:44.960\nthe retail bank\n\n275\n00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:50.320\ngave us the opportunity to think about an internet-only bank, and the instinct\n\n276\n00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:51.120\nwas that it was\n\n277\n00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:55.790\ntime to follow it. The numbers suggested that there was high risk but there was\n\n278\n00:13:55.790 --> 00:13:57.040\na large chance\n\n279\n00:13:57.040 --> 00:14:01.180\nof success, and it's actually not a good news story, David, because we got\n\n280\n00:14:01.180 --> 00:14:02.240\neverything right,\n\n281\n00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:07.450\nexcept remembering to ask the customers if it was the right time for them. We\n\n282\n00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:08.240\ngot the technology\n\n283\n00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:12.160\nright, we got the business plan right, we set the numbers up in a way that\n\n284\n00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.320\nlooked like it was\n\n285\n00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.480\ndestined for success, and it turns out that we were about three years too early\n\n286\n00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:18.880\nand it turned\n\n287\n00:14:18.880 --> 00:14:24.520\nout to be the wrong decision at the particular time. So it is one with numbers\n\n288\n00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:25.840\nare also fallible,\n\n289\n00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:29.870\nand therein lies one of the crucial lessons that understanding that numbers\n\n290\n00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:30.480\ngive you the\n\n291\n00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.880\nscenario in which you're making your decision. Also make sure that you can\n\n292\n00:14:33.880 --> 00:14:34.960\ncalibrate the risk,\n\n293\n00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.640\nand whilst it was a strength of man at the time, it also taught me a really\n\n294\n00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:39.440\ngood lesson because\n\n295\n00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.590\nthere was an unintended risk which I hadn't contemplated. You've got some of\n\n296\n00:14:43.590 --> 00:14:44.160\nthe best\n\n297\n00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:48.170\npeople skills that anybody I've ever met. I mean, you walk into a room, you\n\n298\n00:14:48.170 --> 00:14:49.120\nknow how to make people\n\n299\n00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:55.040\nfeel comfortable, you have tremendous presence, and those kind of skills don't\n\n300\n00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:56.240\ntypically come along\n\n301\n00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.340\nwith what you would describe as or people would describe or see as the\n\n302\n00:15:00.340 --> 00:15:02.320\nstereotypical accountant.\n\n303\n00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:09.680\nWhere did you develop these people skills? It's a hard question, David, and I\n\n304\n00:15:09.680 --> 00:15:10.640\nthink by example,\n\n305\n00:15:10.640 --> 00:15:17.760\nmy father was completely the opposite of me. He had a marketing brain, he was a\n\n306\n00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:18.640\nsalesperson,\n\n307\n00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:22.160\nstarted off selling oil for Shell and ended up selling life insurance policies\n\n308\n00:15:22.160 --> 00:15:23.440\nfor most of his\n\n309\n00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:28.560\nlife, and when I say most of his life, most of his life is a salesman. And he\n\n310\n00:15:28.560 --> 00:15:28.960\ntaught me the power\n\n311\n00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:34.720\nof networks that the engagement model and the opportunity to engage with people\n\n312\n00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:34.720\n,\n\n313\n00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.880\nyou'll always find something interesting. They always know something a lot more\n\n314\n00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:40.320\nthan you do.\n\n315\n00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:46.400\nAnd if you embrace the opportunity to engage with new people in interesting\n\n316\n00:15:46.400 --> 00:15:47.760\nways, your life becomes\n\n317\n00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:52.000\nvery, very broad and very, very quickly. And my late stepmother also said to me\n\n318\n00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:52.640\n, \"Never turn down\n\n319\n00:15:52.640 --> 00:15:57.850\ninvitation.\" You never quite know when excitement is around the corner. And if\n\n320\n00:15:57.850 --> 00:15:58.560\nthe invitation turns\n\n321\n00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:03.770\nout to be one that wasn't that great, you can always leave. So I guess those\n\n322\n00:16:03.770 --> 00:16:05.040\ntwo examples when\n\n323\n00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:10.250\nplays out, and the world is filled with very nice people. When you give career\n\n324\n00:16:10.250 --> 00:16:11.200\nadvice, I've heard\n\n325\n00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.520\nyou say, pick your boss, say more about that, and how that mindset shaped the\n\n326\n00:16:17.520 --> 00:16:19.440\narc of your own career.\n\n327\n00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:25.320\nI think it's the most important person to pick in your life as your wife, and I\n\n328\n00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:26.800\n've been very blessed\n\n329\n00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.600\nin a work environment. The person who has the greatest impact on you is your\n\n330\n00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:30.880\nboss.\n\n331\n00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:36.090\nAnd it's the one choice you can make when you join in organizations who you\n\n332\n00:16:36.090 --> 00:16:37.200\nchoose to work for.\n\n333\n00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:41.440\nAnd I've been very, very lucky. David, I worked for incredible people my whole\n\n334\n00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:43.040\ncareer. And in\n\n335\n00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:47.470\nso doing a lot of what is presented today is a result of what I've learned from\n\n336\n00:16:47.470 --> 00:16:48.480\npeople way better\n\n337\n00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:53.010\nthan me, who I had the chance to learn from for an extended period of time. So\n\n338\n00:16:53.010 --> 00:16:54.320\nit is one of those\n\n339\n00:16:54.320 --> 00:17:00.880\nmoments that you pick people that you aspire to. But by the same token as a man\n\n340\n00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:01.600\n, as a leader,\n\n341\n00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.650\nI've always chosen to try and pick a team that's better than me. And I think I\n\n342\n00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:06.480\nget the best of both\n\n343\n00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.280\nworlds out of that. Learn from your boss and learn from the people that you\n\n344\n00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:09.760\nchoose.\n\n345\n00:17:09.760 --> 00:17:15.360\nYou stepped into the CEO role of Life Healthcare in August of 2020 right in the\n\n346\n00:17:15.360 --> 00:17:17.040\nmiddle of COVID.\n\n347\n00:17:17.040 --> 00:17:22.860\nWhat did you learn about leading through that crisis? It was an intriguing\n\n348\n00:17:22.860 --> 00:17:23.600\nmoment because\n\n349\n00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:29.370\nit actually was a multiplicity of crises. The clinical crisis was obvious to\n\n350\n00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:30.000\nall because at\n\n351\n00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:35.200\nthat particular point, the world's best clinicians had no idea where the virus\n\n352\n00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:36.160\nhad come from, how\n\n353\n00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.170\nto contain it, how it was spreading. And there was widespread fear amongst all\n\n354\n00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:40.960\nof the clinicians,\n\n355\n00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.380\nso park the clinical crisis for a moment. It hampered our operations to the\n\n356\n00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:45.760\nextent that\n\n357\n00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:50.960\nelective surgical procedures couldn't take place. And that's the best part of\n\n358\n00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:51.680\nhalf of the company's\n\n359\n00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.510\nrevenue. And with a fixed cost infrastructure such as a hospital group, you\n\n360\n00:17:55.510 --> 00:17:56.080\nlose half the\n\n361\n00:17:56.080 --> 00:18:01.290\nrevenue, you stop making losses. So there was a financial crisis. You combine\n\n362\n00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:02.320\nthose two,\n\n363\n00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:06.990\nwhich require different instincts and opportunities or approaches to solve, and\n\n364\n00:18:06.990 --> 00:18:07.600\nyou actually end up\n\n365\n00:18:07.600 --> 00:18:12.270\nwith a leadership crisis. And I think there in David was the right person at\n\n366\n00:18:12.270 --> 00:18:13.440\nthe right time.\n\n367\n00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:18.830\nI say that humbly, but some of the crises that I'd had to go through in '07 and\n\n368\n00:18:18.830 --> 00:18:20.080\n'08 in the banking\n\n369\n00:18:20.080 --> 00:18:24.090\ncrisis, and some of the challenges that Deutsche Bank was faced with in the\n\n370\n00:18:24.090 --> 00:18:27.280\nlatter part of 2015\n\n371\n00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:31.290\nto 2017, so that you can manage your way through crises, but you have to be\n\n372\n00:18:31.290 --> 00:18:32.320\nvery careful how you\n\n373\n00:18:32.320 --> 00:18:36.460\napproach them. And in so doing, I was able to take the experience that I had in\n\n374\n00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:37.680\nbanking and apply it\n\n375\n00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.560\nin healthcare in the difficult moments that we faced. Hello, everyone. I hope\n\n376\n00:18:42.560 --> 00:18:43.120\nyou are loving\n\n377\n00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:47.440\nthis conversation between David and Peter. As always, stay tuned to the very\n\n378\n00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:48.480\nend of the episode.\n\n379\n00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.520\nDavid and I are going to debrief the conversation that he's having with Peter\n\n380\n00:18:51.520 --> 00:18:52.400\nso that you leave\n\n381\n00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.610\nwith some real tangible takeaways to apply to your leadership and to your wife.\n\n382\n00:18:57.610 --> 00:18:58.400\nSo stay tuned to the\n\n383\n00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.610\nvery end of the episode, and I will see you at the debrief. You know, you're\n\n384\n00:19:03.610 --> 00:19:04.480\nobviously not one to\n\n385\n00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:10.120\nrun away from a challenge, and not everyone is really wired to do that, Peter.\n\n386\n00:19:10.120 --> 00:19:11.200\nWas this learned\n\n387\n00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:15.630\nor anator? Is this just part of who you are? Do you like to go into the fire? I\n\n388\n00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:16.240\nmean, you do the\n\n389\n00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.780\nfire walk. I mean, is this just something that you live for? I think the\n\n390\n00:19:19.780 --> 00:19:20.800\nconfidence to be able to\n\n391\n00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:26.620\ntake on tough tasks came by being given tough tasks when I was in my formative\n\n392\n00:19:26.620 --> 00:19:28.160\nyears and being\n\n393\n00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:33.370\nwell looked after by my bosses during those tough times that you then get a\n\n394\n00:19:33.370 --> 00:19:34.640\nreal sense that\n\n395\n00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:39.850\nyou can do things. I was never hung out to dry, but I was given some pretty\n\n396\n00:19:39.850 --> 00:19:40.080\ntough\n\n397\n00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:44.300\nchallenges during the course of the early stages of my career. I think that\n\n398\n00:19:44.300 --> 00:19:45.040\ngives you some of the\n\n399\n00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:48.960\nconfidence. And it also gives you a recipe book that you can apply in difficult\n\n400\n00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:50.320\ncircumstances. And\n\n401\n00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:55.120\nthat book hasn't changed. You pick really good teams. And I think that gave me\n\n402\n00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:55.840\nthe confidence to\n\n403\n00:19:55.840 --> 00:19:59.530\nkeep trying. So you pick a really good team. Is there anything else in that\n\n404\n00:19:59.530 --> 00:20:00.480\nrecipe book of yours?\n\n405\n00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:04.060\nYou get that team. You're in a crisis situation. What have you learned about\n\n406\n00:20:04.060 --> 00:20:05.120\nhow to work through it?\n\n407\n00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:08.850\nYou can't ask anyone to do anything that you wouldn't do yourself. So that\n\n408\n00:20:08.850 --> 00:20:09.920\nleadership, by\n\n409\n00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.970\nexample, model is an important one. I think that you've also got to show a\n\n410\n00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:15.520\ntremendous capacity for\n\n411\n00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:20.720\nhard work under tough circumstances, which comes with sacrifice. And you're the\n\n412\n00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:21.040\ncaptain of the ship.\n\n413\n00:20:21.040 --> 00:20:24.950\nYou're the last person to leave the ship, which means that you just don't give\n\n414\n00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:26.640\nup. And I think\n\n415\n00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:31.850\ntherein, one also has to be realistic that some of us or many of us are in a\n\n416\n00:20:31.850 --> 00:20:32.960\nposition to put in\n\n417\n00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.270\nthe hours. And I've had a very supportive family network that's allowed me to\n\n418\n00:20:36.270 --> 00:20:36.640\ndo it,\n\n419\n00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.720\nbut you can't be unreasonable in your expectations. So balancing the two\n\n420\n00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.240\nbetween contribution and\n\n421\n00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.700\nthe leadership model that you feel proud of is also going to be done with a\n\n422\n00:20:46.700 --> 00:20:47.600\nlevel of respect and\n\n423\n00:20:47.600 --> 00:20:52.460\nhumility for the capacity that's around you. So you come in as a CEO in this\n\n424\n00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:53.680\nnew industry.\n\n425\n00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:59.680\nWhat process did you use to really establish a clear vision for the company?\n\n426\n00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:00.960\nAnd how did you go\n\n427\n00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:07.550\nabout communicating it, especially when you had fear and uncertainty everywhere\n\n428\n00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:08.560\n? And\n\n429\n00:21:08.560 --> 00:21:13.090\nyou're a new guy that doesn't have any health care experience. I mean, that had\n\n430\n00:21:13.090 --> 00:21:13.840\nto be kind of a\n\n431\n00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:20.480\ntough, tough mindset for the people to go through as well. It was. And not\n\n432\n00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:22.000\neveryone responded\n\n433\n00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.200\nparticularly well to a bank and a health care environment immediately,\n\n434\n00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.640\nparticularly from a\n\n435\n00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.000\nclinical perspective. And therein, I made sure that the chief medical officer\n\n436\n00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:32.720\nhad the rule of the\n\n437\n00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.760\nroost, put the trust in them and the clinical committee of the board, which\n\n438\n00:21:36.760 --> 00:21:37.600\nmeant that the\n\n439\n00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:43.420\nreal aspects of my weaknesses, I was shielded by having really competent people\n\n440\n00:21:43.420 --> 00:21:44.080\ntaking the lead\n\n441\n00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:49.840\nand me backing them. The financial component, the financial part of the crisis,\n\n442\n00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:50.720\nI had a new mall\n\n443\n00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.900\nhaving been through those processes many times before in the banking\n\n444\n00:21:54.900 --> 00:21:55.760\nenvironment.\n\n445\n00:21:55.760 --> 00:22:00.960\nAnd that actually played to its strengths and it put me in a position where I\n\n446\n00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:01.600\ncould demonstrate\n\n447\n00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.920\ncapability in a strange environment, but playing to my strengths, delegated the\n\n448\n00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:07.040\nresponsibility\n\n449\n00:22:07.040 --> 00:22:12.320\nin a responsible way to the clinicians. And inside doing was allowing myself to\n\n450\n00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:13.200\nbe able to\n\n451\n00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:16.360\nassimilate what the next steps were likely to be for the company. So\n\n452\n00:22:16.360 --> 00:22:18.320\ninterestingly enough,\n\n453\n00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:24.160\nDavid, the crisis brought me a period of time where day to day managing the\n\n454\n00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:25.920\ncrises on hand\n\n455\n00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.740\nallowed me to learn the industry before I had to give an answer as to where we\n\n456\n00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:30.080\nthought we were\n\n457\n00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.960\ngoing to position the company a little bit later on. So I was relatively lucky\n\n458\n00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:34.560\nin the difficult\n\n459\n00:22:34.560 --> 00:22:39.090\nset of circumstances that I had a bit of time to be able to think. Did you\n\n460\n00:22:39.090 --> 00:22:40.240\nbring your team together\n\n461\n00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:44.250\nto develop that vision or did you go into your office and come out with it one\n\n462\n00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:45.040\nday and say this\n\n463\n00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:48.480\nis where we're going and then get the feedback? Where did you start?\n\n464\n00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.000\nThe question I posed to them is let's write the newspaper article as to what\n\n465\n00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:52.800\nthis company would\n\n466\n00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:56.850\nlook like in 2025. And each of you are the journalist, you're the journalist\n\n467\n00:22:56.850 --> 00:22:57.920\nfor your division,\n\n468\n00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:03.130\nyou've got to write it down in two pages. So effectively it turned, it took a\n\n469\n00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:03.920\n300 page strategic\n\n470\n00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:09.390\nplan that was quite complex to digest and it turned it into 20 pages of what\n\n471\n00:23:09.390 --> 00:23:10.640\nthe leaders\n\n472\n00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:14.460\naspired to be able to deliver over the next five years. And off the back of\n\n473\n00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:15.440\nthat, David,\n\n474\n00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.280\nI was able to pick the eyes out of each of what the ambition statements were\n\n475\n00:23:19.280 --> 00:23:19.600\nand then\n\n476\n00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:23.120\nask them how they were going to get it done. So we reverse engineered the\n\n477\n00:23:23.120 --> 00:23:23.760\nstrategy of the\n\n478\n00:23:23.760 --> 00:23:29.580\ncompany from what would like to be hypothetical, multidisciplinary, lots of\n\n479\n00:23:29.580 --> 00:23:30.640\noptions and lots of\n\n480\n00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:35.090\nchoices. Basically to an ambition statement where a company and crisis was\n\n481\n00:23:35.090 --> 00:23:35.760\nasked what\n\n482\n00:23:35.760 --> 00:23:39.230\nyou wanted to look like in five years' time. And that brought the team together\n\n483\n00:23:39.230 --> 00:23:40.000\nbecause it was\n\n484\n00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:45.210\nan element of doing things very differently. And some of them looked at me\n\n485\n00:23:45.210 --> 00:23:46.080\nquizzically\n\n486\n00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:48.910\nand said, \"This is not how we've done this strategic plan in the company before\n\n487\n00:23:48.910 --> 00:23:50.000\n.\" I said,\n\n488\n00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.440\n\"Well, the world for healthcare has changed so significantly. We have to do\n\n489\n00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:53.680\nthings\n\n490\n00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:58.210\nsignificantly differently.\" And it's intriguing to watch how many things we got\n\n491\n00:23:58.210 --> 00:23:58.640\nwrong in those\n\n492\n00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:02.140\nforecasts over those five years. And specifically, some of the stuff we got\n\n493\n00:24:02.140 --> 00:24:02.640\nright.\n\n494\n00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:08.090\nDid you come up with a magic set of words that really provided the noble cause\n\n495\n00:24:08.090 --> 00:24:09.280\nfor the organization?\n\n496\n00:24:09.280 --> 00:24:14.480\nWe did indeed. And the noble cause for life healthcare is making life better.\n\n497\n00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:20.300\nAnd it resonates across so many different dimensions because life could be life\n\n498\n00:24:20.300 --> 00:24:20.720\nhealthcare,\n\n499\n00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.880\nmake the company better. Life could be the life of the individuals that work in\n\n500\n00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:25.360\nthe company,\n\n501\n00:24:25.360 --> 00:24:29.250\nmake their lives better. But if we don't think about it, our responsibilities\n\n502\n00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:30.000\nto patients.\n\n503\n00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.080\nAnd when they come to hospital, they want to be better by the time they leave,\n\n504\n00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:38.800\nmaking life better actually works across so many different dimensions. And it\n\n505\n00:24:38.800 --> 00:24:39.280\njust happens\n\n506\n00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:43.100\nspontaneously. We didn't have to spend months researching it or getting\n\n507\n00:24:43.100 --> 00:24:44.080\nagencies to help us.\n\n508\n00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:49.290\nIt popped out of the executive and it stuck. Great. And how do you as a leader\n\n509\n00:24:49.290 --> 00:24:50.000\ngo about\n\n510\n00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:53.920\ncontinually communicating and reinforcing that vision?\n\n511\n00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.650\nAnd they're in last one of the challenges because the inconsistency in\n\n512\n00:24:57.650 --> 00:24:58.320\nhealthcare\n\n513\n00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:03.530\nis it ebbs and flows in a fairly significant way, that they're good times and\n\n514\n00:25:03.530 --> 00:25:03.920\nthey're tough\n\n515\n00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:09.130\ntimes. And we just have to constantly bang the same drum or beat the same drum\n\n516\n00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:10.160\nin the same way.\n\n517\n00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.370\nSo the messages are always in tune with the way that we see the outcomes of the\n\n518\n00:25:15.370 --> 00:25:15.840\ncompany.\n\n519\n00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:18.790\nAnd it's easy to go back to the bedrock. So in tough times, we're going to make\n\n520\n00:25:18.790 --> 00:25:19.440\nlife better.\n\n521\n00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:24.650\nTeams to be, at this particular point, a more electronically distributed\n\n522\n00:25:24.650 --> 00:25:25.280\nmessage through the\n\n523\n00:25:25.280 --> 00:25:28.320\nvarious different locations because it's impossible to get to all of them\n\n524\n00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:29.040\nphysically\n\n525\n00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:33.570\nall at the same time. And we've set up a natural communication routine that\n\n526\n00:25:33.570 --> 00:25:34.160\nruns through the\n\n527\n00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:39.320\nhospitals on a very predictable monthly basis that reinforces the message with\n\n528\n00:25:39.320 --> 00:25:39.920\ngood news stories,\n\n529\n00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.380\nDavid. And I think that's what there are lots of good news stories that come\n\n530\n00:25:43.380 --> 00:25:44.080\nout of healthcare,\n\n531\n00:25:44.080 --> 00:25:47.840\npatient experiences. And we try and exemplify it with examples.\n\n532\n00:25:47.840 --> 00:25:53.040\nWhen you give the big speech to the organization, are you a storyteller? Do you\n\n533\n00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:53.760\nuse a lot of stories\n\n534\n00:25:53.760 --> 00:25:57.580\nin your speeches or how do you go about that? I'm not a great storyteller,\n\n535\n00:25:57.580 --> 00:25:58.800\nDavid. So it doesn't\n\n536\n00:25:58.800 --> 00:26:04.350\ntend to be story driven. The animation comes more from experiences and\n\n537\n00:26:04.350 --> 00:26:05.840\nparallels that one can draw\n\n538\n00:26:05.840 --> 00:26:10.190\nbetween the healthcare industry and other aspects that I've seen in different\n\n539\n00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:11.360\norganizations during\n\n540\n00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:17.200\nthe course of my tenure as an executive. And sometimes that brings a refreshing\n\n541\n00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:18.240\nview on\n\n542\n00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.600\nhow problems can be solved, because typically the way the healthcare is moving\n\n543\n00:26:23.600 --> 00:26:24.240\ninto now\n\n544\n00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:28.160\nrequires a very different set of thought processes to what has been happening,\n\n545\n00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.830\nyeah, for certain for the last 20. And inserting some of those parallels become\n\n546\n00:26:32.830 --> 00:26:33.520\nquite interesting\n\n547\n00:26:33.520 --> 00:26:37.360\nbecause they're technically relevant, but not healthcare specific.\n\n548\n00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:41.600\nSo you have these new thought processes are going to be required for success in\n\n549\n00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:42.400\nyour industry.\n\n550\n00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:48.860\nHow do you bring your people along with you so that they adapt these processes\n\n551\n00:26:48.860 --> 00:26:49.360\nor these thought\n\n552\n00:26:49.360 --> 00:26:52.390\nprocesses that you're going to, you know, are essential if you're going to\n\n553\n00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:53.280\ncontinue to win.\n\n554\n00:26:53.280 --> 00:26:56.160\nAnd I think they're in last one of the big challenges, healthcare and South\n\n555\n00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:56.560\nAfrica\n\n556\n00:26:56.560 --> 00:27:00.570\nchange is very, very slowly. So you can have two decades of no change and then\n\n557\n00:27:00.570 --> 00:27:01.520\nyou can have\n\n558\n00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:06.190\nmassive change happen very, very quickly. And COVID is a good example of that\n\n559\n00:27:06.190 --> 00:27:07.360\nin a nutshell.\n\n560\n00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:11.650\nThe technological evolution that's taking place in healthcare does frighten\n\n561\n00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:12.080\npeople.\n\n562\n00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:16.160\nIf one speaks about it, irresponsibly, some people draw a conclusion that\n\n563\n00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:17.920\nrobots will replace nurses.\n\n564\n00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:22.250\nIt's a ridiculous notion. David robots will never replace nurses. Certainly not\n\n565\n00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:22.880\nin my tenure.\n\n566\n00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:28.710\nBut one does feel that people get threatened by change. And inserting one has\n\n567\n00:27:28.710 --> 00:27:29.840\nto do it in a way\n\n568\n00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:33.970\nthat embraces the change for the purpose for which it's intended. And the env\n\n569\n00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:34.560\niable outcomes\n\n570\n00:27:34.560 --> 00:27:38.480\nthat one wants to deliver. But you do it in a way that lets people feel that\n\n571\n00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.120\nthat's part\n\n572\n00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:43.260\nof the new beginnings for them as players inside the organization as them being\n\n573\n00:27:43.260 --> 00:27:44.080\nsubstituted.\n\n574\n00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:49.760\nYou've talked about people a number of times in your team. You've actually said\n\n575\n00:27:49.760 --> 00:27:56.420\nno staff, no business. You know, where did that belief in people come from in\n\n576\n00:27:56.420 --> 00:27:57.600\nyour career? And,\n\n577\n00:27:57.600 --> 00:28:04.560\nyou know, what do you do as a leader to drive that home to, you know, your\n\n578\n00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:05.600\nleaders across the\n\n579\n00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:10.040\norganization? If one looks at the successes that I've happened to be in part of\n\n580\n00:28:10.040 --> 00:28:10.800\n, it's always been\n\n581\n00:28:10.800 --> 00:28:16.080\nabout teamwork. It's always been a team game, shared spoils and collective\n\n582\n00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:16.960\nefforts.\n\n583\n00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:22.170\nDavid, I don't actually know any other way. And that was the way that I was\n\n584\n00:28:22.170 --> 00:28:23.200\nraised. That's the way\n\n585\n00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:30.090\nthat I've been trained. And if you really want a really good feeling, then\n\n586\n00:28:30.090 --> 00:28:31.760\nsucceed as a team,\n\n587\n00:28:31.760 --> 00:28:39.350\nbecause that success shared is just a multiplication factor that is just so\n\n588\n00:28:39.350 --> 00:28:40.240\ndesirable that you want\n\n589\n00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:46.250\nmore of it. And in that context, showcasing teamwork has been exemplified to my\n\n590\n00:28:46.250 --> 00:28:47.920\nexecutives\n\n591\n00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.400\non the basis that I will pick team players before individually brilliant people\n\n592\n00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:51.600\n.\n\n593\n00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:56.480\nAnd I've made that absolutely clear. Even great individuals have said, well, if\n\n594\n00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:57.040\nI'm not a team\n\n595\n00:28:57.040 --> 00:29:02.640\nplayer, then I don't belong in this team. And that has worked. Yes, it's quite\n\n596\n00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:03.520\na blunt statement,\n\n597\n00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:09.920\nbut it is what I believe. And it is what I choose to pursue passionately.\n\n598\n00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.520\nYou're a team member. You're really smart. You got all the talent, and you're\n\n599\n00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:14.400\nnot playing ball\n\n600\n00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:19.280\nin your company. What's your coaching process for a person like that?\n\n601\n00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:25.440\nFirst opportunity is to talk to them honestly. Try and find out what's driving\n\n602\n00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:26.480\nthe inconsistency\n\n603\n00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:31.610\nin their behavior. And sometimes it's issues away from the workplace that they\n\n604\n00:29:31.610 --> 00:29:32.080\n're battling with.\n\n605\n00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:36.750\nAnd I think an insight into the individual and the challenges that they faced\n\n606\n00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:37.040\nwith,\n\n607\n00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:42.160\nand demonstrating empathy for all this trust, and trust allows you to deliver\n\n608\n00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:42.640\nsome of the tough\n\n609\n00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:47.040\nmessages without it appearing as though that you're trying to get them out.\n\n610\n00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:49.360\nBecause deep inside the\n\n611\n00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:54.640\npeople that I've worked with, the good human is there. It's sometimes blocked\n\n612\n00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:55.600\nby other issues\n\n613\n00:29:55.600 --> 00:29:59.830\nthat they may be struggling with. And it may even be my management stuff. But\n\n614\n00:29:59.830 --> 00:30:00.640\nif you allow them\n\n615\n00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.330\nto articulate it, then you find ways to be able to address it, the mentorship\n\n616\n00:30:04.330 --> 00:30:04.720\nmodel,\n\n617\n00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.240\nand the ability to coach them is just that much easier. But that doesn't mean\n\n618\n00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.280\nyou can't deliver\n\n619\n00:30:09.280 --> 00:30:13.100\ntough messages as and when they're required. Without going into names,\n\n620\n00:30:13.100 --> 00:30:14.000\nobviously, what would\n\n621\n00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.310\nbe the toughest situation where you actually had to let somebody go and how'd\n\n622\n00:30:17.310 --> 00:30:18.080\nyou handle it?\n\n623\n00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:27.040\nAn individually brilliant person with no capacity to engage with the team,\n\n624\n00:30:27.040 --> 00:30:32.320\nand around which we built a promise to the marketplace, where he was pivotal to\n\n625\n00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:33.840\nthe delivery\n\n626\n00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:40.400\nthereof. And I had to let him go. With consequences, ruffled feathers through\n\n627\n00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:40.880\nthe team,\n\n628\n00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.960\nhow are we going to deal with the marketplace? And effectively, I had to make\n\n629\n00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:45.840\nthe judgment call\n\n630\n00:30:45.840 --> 00:30:50.020\nwas, are we going to try and manage around the individual? Or we were going to\n\n631\n00:30:50.020 --> 00:30:50.480\ncome up with a\n\n632\n00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:55.600\nbetter plan? And in that particular set of circumstances, at great cost to the\n\n633\n00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:55.600\nteam,\n\n634\n00:30:55.600 --> 00:31:02.000\nthe individual had to be asked to leave. Those are the tough calls to make. But\n\n635\n00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:02.480\nthe good news\n\n636\n00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.240\nis there's always people that are on the team and that get things done. How do\n\n637\n00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:08.800\nyou make sure people\n\n638\n00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:13.280\nfeel seen and valued? How do you go about that as a leader?\n\n639\n00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.120\nI think there are multiple aspects that keep people engaged inside an\n\n640\n00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:19.280\norganization. And it's not money.\n\n641\n00:31:19.280 --> 00:31:25.100\nI think there are other aspects that one needs to work on. And if you split it\n\n642\n00:31:25.100 --> 00:31:25.840\ninto three,\n\n643\n00:31:25.840 --> 00:31:31.910\nproviding them with the challenge that they feel stretched by brings them to\n\n644\n00:31:31.910 --> 00:31:32.160\nwork,\n\n645\n00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:38.320\nmaking sure that they feel appreciated, not in a financial sense, but in a\n\n646\n00:31:38.320 --> 00:31:39.600\nmanagement recognition\n\n647\n00:31:39.600 --> 00:31:45.430\nsense, pays huge dividends going forward. And making sure that the right\n\n648\n00:31:45.430 --> 00:31:46.960\nhygiene factors within the\n\n649\n00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:51.350\ncorporate are taking care of their ambitions with a decent runway for them and\n\n650\n00:31:51.350 --> 00:31:52.320\nunderstanding\n\n651\n00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:55.730\nwhere their career is going actually shows that they're taking very good care\n\n652\n00:31:55.730 --> 00:31:57.360\nof. That three-way\n\n653\n00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:01.200\nmodel, once it submits with great individuals, they don't leave. They have\n\n654\n00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:02.240\ndifficult times every\n\n655\n00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:06.400\nnow and again. So it's a deliberate view not to just think that you solve these\n\n656\n00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:07.280\nchallenges with\n\n657\n00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:11.190\nmoney that forces you to think about the issues that are really important to\n\n658\n00:32:11.190 --> 00:32:11.840\npeople.\n\n659\n00:32:11.840 --> 00:32:16.080\nHow do you personally recognize people? Do you have any way that you do it?\n\n660\n00:32:16.080 --> 00:32:21.530\nThere's no unique signature that I would say that everyone would say they've\n\n661\n00:32:21.530 --> 00:32:22.080\nbeen treated the\n\n662\n00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:25.600\nsame way. But I make sure that the recognition and appreciation is always there\n\n663\n00:32:25.600 --> 00:32:27.840\n. I engage with\n\n664\n00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:33.660\nmy direct reports continuously so that by the time it gets to formal appraisals\n\n665\n00:32:33.660 --> 00:32:34.400\nat half and\n\n666\n00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.320\nfull year end, there aren't any surprises. They tend to be relatively easy\n\n667\n00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:39.200\nconversations.\n\n668\n00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:44.410\nSo it's ongoing dialogue. David's about being present. When they have meetings\n\n669\n00:32:44.410 --> 00:32:44.800\nwith you,\n\n670\n00:32:44.800 --> 00:32:49.620\nthat you focus, that you listening, that they know that you're listening, that\n\n671\n00:32:49.620 --> 00:32:50.320\nyou can remember\n\n672\n00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:53.500\nthe questions that they ask and the answers that you've given. And to make sure\n\n673\n00:32:53.500 --> 00:32:54.480\nthat you've taken\n\n674\n00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.360\nthem seriously as individuals would be what I would like to be remembered for.\n\n675\n00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:00.320\nIt's not always\n\n676\n00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:05.530\nthat easy. Pressure times do create slight differences in behavior. But that's\n\n677\n00:33:05.530 --> 00:33:05.600\nthe\n\n678\n00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:08.760\nway that I'd like for people to feel that I'm engaged with them and I'm\n\n679\n00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:09.760\ninterested in them and\n\n680\n00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:14.000\nI care about them. You've been described by many people as a leader who truly\n\n681\n00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:15.040\nbacks their people.\n\n682\n00:33:15.040 --> 00:33:19.820\nI mean, you walk and talk on this dimension. Tell us about a time you put your\n\n683\n00:33:19.820 --> 00:33:21.040\nown credibility\n\n684\n00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:24.400\non the line for someone on your team. You know, where you really had to back\n\n685\n00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:25.280\nsomebody that maybe\n\n686\n00:33:25.280 --> 00:33:30.880\npeople weren't necessarily sure of. Absolutely. And it springs to mind almost\n\n687\n00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:31.440\nimmediately\n\n688\n00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.110\nthat in my current job, and we won't mention names because you asked not to.\n\n689\n00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:37.760\nBut I decided to\n\n690\n00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:44.480\ntake an individual who had a unique skill set was completely not qualified for\n\n691\n00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:45.360\nthe role that I\n\n692\n00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:51.180\nwanted to place the individual in and made the decision. And I didn't get\n\n693\n00:33:51.180 --> 00:33:52.720\nsupport from anybody.\n\n694\n00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:57.860\nEverybody thought I was crazy. I put my own stamp on and said, I'll if it doesn\n\n695\n00:33:57.860 --> 00:33:58.640\n't work,\n\n696\n00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:02.710\nI'll take the hit. And I'm delighted to say that four years later, it's turned\n\n697\n00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:03.200\nout to be\n\n698\n00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.340\nexactly the right decision for the company, the individual and the outcomes\n\n699\n00:34:07.340 --> 00:34:08.320\nthat we needed to\n\n700\n00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:11.820\ndeliver that David was the only time in my career where I got absolutely no\n\n701\n00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:13.200\nsupport for a decision\n\n702\n00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:18.410\nand had to stand my ground. And you know, what was it that gave you that\n\n703\n00:34:18.410 --> 00:34:19.520\nconviction to do that?\n\n704\n00:34:19.520 --> 00:34:24.190\nBecause a lot of people went out. In this particular instance, getting to some\n\n705\n00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:25.280\nof the finer detail,\n\n706\n00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:29.440\nit was all around people and culture. And I don't believe that you learn people\n\n707\n00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:30.080\nand culture in a\n\n708\n00:34:30.080 --> 00:34:32.830\nbook. And I don't believe that you get a degree in people and culture. I think\n\n709\n00:34:32.830 --> 00:34:33.600\nyou've either got\n\n710\n00:34:33.600 --> 00:34:37.890\nit in your DNA, or you haven't. And the ability to engage with people across\n\n711\n00:34:37.890 --> 00:34:39.040\nmultiple cultures\n\n712\n00:34:39.040 --> 00:34:44.250\nin very different circumstances and form a cohesive use to where the\n\n713\n00:34:44.250 --> 00:34:46.080\norganization needs to be patched\n\n714\n00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:51.540\nup or needs to be matured, I think takes tremendous people inside. And my\n\n715\n00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:53.360\ninstincts were the individual\n\n716\n00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:58.560\nhad it. And that's all it took. Then you follow that gut. You know, you're a\n\n717\n00:34:58.560 --> 00:34:59.600\nleader who clearly\n\n718\n00:34:59.600 --> 00:35:04.720\nleads by by example. I mean, you don't you mentioned, you don't ask people to\n\n719\n00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:05.520\ndo anything that you\n\n720\n00:35:05.520 --> 00:35:11.080\nwouldn't do. And I think that's a very powerful point, obviously. So when you\n\n721\n00:35:11.080 --> 00:35:12.800\nthink about that,\n\n722\n00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:16.930\nand you think about behaviors you want to drive in your organization, what's\n\n723\n00:35:16.930 --> 00:35:18.560\nbeen the hardest\n\n724\n00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:24.050\nbehavior to get others to adopt in your culture that you know is really\n\n725\n00:35:24.050 --> 00:35:24.960\nimportant?\n\n726\n00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:31.280\nI think in the context across the across the decades, the consistency\n\n727\n00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:37.840\nof being transparent with your colleagues has been the most difficult to\n\n728\n00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:39.440\nachieve. And I think that\n\n729\n00:35:40.080 --> 00:35:44.610\nthat resistance comes for a variety of reasons. You need confidence to be\n\n730\n00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:45.360\ntransparent to the\n\n731\n00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.670\ncolleague, because it's quite difficult to tell someone you don't like what\n\n732\n00:35:48.670 --> 00:35:49.440\nthey're doing.\n\n733\n00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:54.650\nDifferent hierarchical structures, even in a flat organizational structure,\n\n734\n00:35:54.650 --> 00:35:55.440\ntend to create\n\n735\n00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:00.650\npower gaps where people are either scared or lack the confidence to be able to\n\n736\n00:36:00.650 --> 00:36:01.520\naddress the issue.\n\n737\n00:36:01.520 --> 00:36:06.730\nAnd sometimes people are just too nice that they feel that by confronting an\n\n738\n00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:07.360\nindividual around\n\n739\n00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:12.570\nbehavior that they will be seem to be offensive. It's completely understandable\n\n740\n00:36:12.570 --> 00:36:13.440\n. So creating\n\n741\n00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:17.740\nthat environment where the consistency of engagement across executives is\n\n742\n00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:19.920\ntransparent, honest and\n\n743\n00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:25.130\nproductive is a constant nurturing because that requires effort and work all\n\n744\n00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:25.840\nthe time.\n\n745\n00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.510\nYou're obviously a hell of a nice guy. I mean, you're just a good guy. People\n\n746\n00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:31.440\nlove being around\n\n747\n00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:37.840\nyou. You're so empathetic. But I'm sure like most nice guys, you want to be\n\n748\n00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:38.320\nliked.\n\n749\n00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:43.840\nI mean, it's kind of in our DNA. You have a desire to be like, how do you\n\n750\n00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:45.760\nmanage that desire\n\n751\n00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:51.920\nto be liked if you think you have it? And still be able to make a tough call?\n\n752\n00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:59.040\nI think David, that's probably part of me that is morphed over the years.\n\n753\n00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:05.440\nI think in the formative years as a younger leader, you want to be liked. But I\n\n754\n00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:06.560\nhad a great mentor.\n\n755\n00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:12.080\nAnd his wise words to me were leadership is not a popular position. And you're\n\n756\n00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:12.640\nnot there to be\n\n757\n00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:17.780\ntheir friends. You're there to be their leader. And there will be moments where\n\n758\n00:37:17.780 --> 00:37:18.560\nwhat you decide\n\n759\n00:37:18.560 --> 00:37:25.440\nis not going to be a popular outcome. And you grove. Shall we say a slight\n\n760\n00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:26.960\nimmunity would be the\n\n761\n00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:31.050\nwrong word that you groan, increasing sense of responsibility that doing what\n\n762\n00:37:31.050 --> 00:37:32.240\nis right for\n\n763\n00:37:32.240 --> 00:37:37.440\nthe individuals and for the company may come at a personal price. And that's\n\n764\n00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:37.840\nthe price that\n\n765\n00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:42.130\nleaders have to pay that a constant seek, if you constantly seek popularity or\n\n766\n00:37:42.130 --> 00:37:43.040\nbox yourself into\n\n767\n00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:46.940\na corner where you'll make the wrong decisions, back the wrong person, or do\n\n768\n00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:47.680\nwhat's not in the\n\n769\n00:37:47.680 --> 00:37:52.210\nbest interest of the company. So I've had to numb myself to the fact that there\n\n770\n00:37:52.210 --> 00:37:52.960\nwill be moments of\n\n771\n00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:58.330\ntime where I'm not popular. And that just is a price I have to pay, as opposed\n\n772\n00:37:58.330 --> 00:37:59.920\nto the alternative,\n\n773\n00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:05.130\nwhich is not in my DNA to walk down that path. You know, you've obviously\n\n774\n00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:06.400\noverseen technology\n\n775\n00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:13.360\nand operations on a global scale. What's one mistake you see leaders make when\n\n776\n00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:14.560\nthey're trying to,\n\n777\n00:38:14.560 --> 00:38:20.400\nlet's call it, say, digitally transform an organization. David, I smile because\n\n778\n00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:20.800\nI'm\n\n779\n00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:27.550\ntrapped immediately in that problem again, as we speak, standard bank days, we\n\n780\n00:38:27.550 --> 00:38:28.560\nwrote the technology\n\n781\n00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:33.770\ncurve. We were at the cutting edge of technology, largest installation, IBM's\n\n782\n00:38:33.770 --> 00:38:34.960\nlargest installation\n\n783\n00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.630\nin the Southern Hemisphere. We were the beta site for a number of cutting edge\n\n784\n00:38:38.630 --> 00:38:39.680\nmoments,\n\n785\n00:38:39.680 --> 00:38:45.870\nand proudly took it as the way forward in banking. It comes at a price. You\n\n786\n00:38:45.870 --> 00:38:46.800\nneed a big balance\n\n787\n00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.900\nsheet. You've got to accept that you're going to make mistakes. And the lesson\n\n788\n00:38:50.900 --> 00:38:51.840\nthat I learned\n\n789\n00:38:51.840 --> 00:38:55.510\nthere was that technology started to move at such a fast pace that being on the\n\n790\n00:38:55.510 --> 00:38:56.240\ncutting edge,\n\n791\n00:38:56.240 --> 00:39:01.680\nyou could be trapped in an environment that became dated quite quickly. Fast\n\n792\n00:39:01.680 --> 00:39:03.200\nforward 15\n\n793\n00:39:03.200 --> 00:39:08.410\nyears later into healthcare. And what we're seeing now is that the technology\n\n794\n00:39:08.410 --> 00:39:08.640\nedge,\n\n795\n00:39:08.640 --> 00:39:12.800\nand we as a corporation are currently behind the technology frontier, is moving\n\n796\n00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:13.360\nthat quickly,\n\n797\n00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:18.960\nthat the deliberate bet we are taking, is to solve the implementations that the\n\n798\n00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:19.360\nmarket is\n\n799\n00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.220\nsuggesting are obvious on the basis that we think the technology is going to\n\n800\n00:39:23.220 --> 00:39:24.240\nmove that much quicker,\n\n801\n00:39:24.240 --> 00:39:28.400\nthat it'll be cheaper in a year's time and probably much easier to implement.\n\n802\n00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:29.760\nAnd you only have to\n\n803\n00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:33.900\nhave a look what's happened in AI in the last six months to realize that this\n\n804\n00:39:33.900 --> 00:39:34.800\ncurve is moving\n\n805\n00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.470\nreally, very quickly. So I'm an outlier in the decision by resisting the change\n\n806\n00:39:39.470 --> 00:39:40.880\nand the momentum,\n\n807\n00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:44.400\nknowing that they come to stage, we're going to have to be a very, very fast\n\n808\n00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:45.200\nfollower.\n\n809\n00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:50.410\nAnd hopefully that strategy succeeds. Yeah, so you're consciously not trying to\n\n810\n00:39:50.410 --> 00:39:50.560\nlead,\n\n811\n00:39:50.560 --> 00:39:54.640\nyou're going to be that fast follower. That takes some courage because people\n\n812\n00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:55.040\ncan say,\n\n813\n00:39:55.040 --> 00:39:57.840\nman, we're getting left behind. I mean, they got to be pounding your office\n\n814\n00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.480\ndoor like,\n\n815\n00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.800\nthey're doing this, they're doing this. Why aren't we going? And that's\n\n816\n00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:04.000\nhappened both internally\n\n817\n00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:09.820\nfrom the board and from the market's perspective. But the approach to solving\n\n818\n00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:10.320\nthat particular\n\n819\n00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.520\npressure problem is to have a very clear view as to where you end where you're\n\n820\n00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:15.520\ngoing.\n\n821\n00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:19.530\nAnd also have a very clear plan as to how are you going to get there? The only\n\n822\n00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:19.840\nthing that's\n\n823\n00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:23.890\ngoing to change is the timeline. And the optionality to be able to accelerate\n\n824\n00:40:23.890 --> 00:40:25.040\nthe timeline\n\n825\n00:40:25.040 --> 00:40:29.220\nis far easier than having to say, oh, we made a mistake to reverse and start\n\n826\n00:40:29.220 --> 00:40:29.840\nagain.\n\n827\n00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:34.240\nAnd I think therein is the conservative nature of actually holding back just\n\n828\n00:40:34.240 --> 00:40:35.360\nfor the time being.\n\n829\n00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:39.760\nHow are you preparing your team for the role that AI is playing across health\n\n830\n00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:41.040\ncare right now and\n\n831\n00:40:41.040 --> 00:40:44.960\nnot just operationally, but culturally? I mean, how are you? How do you\n\n832\n00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:46.000\npersonally think about\n\n833\n00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:51.440\ndriving the need for AI in your organization? I think that comes at a junction\n\n834\n00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:52.080\norganization\n\n835\n00:40:52.080 --> 00:40:57.670\nwhere you split in a health care world, AI and what it will deliver clinically,\n\n836\n00:40:57.670 --> 00:40:59.120\nsupplement to\n\n837\n00:40:59.120 --> 00:41:02.480\nor complement doctors, judgment or specialist judgment in clinical\n\n838\n00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.480\ncircumstances. And how\n\n839\n00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:09.680\nwe view AI from the process and procedural perspective back in the operations\n\n840\n00:41:09.680 --> 00:41:10.240\nof the company.\n\n841\n00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:14.640\nClearly, the latter, the much easier one to contemplate because robotic process\n\n842\n00:41:14.640 --> 00:41:20.550\nautomation and the use of AI in process-driven improvement is largely non-\n\n843\n00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:21.440\nthreatening,\n\n844\n00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:24.560\nit's largely understood and it's easy to create from a business case\n\n845\n00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:25.360\nperspective.\n\n846\n00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:32.160\nThe junction between patient care and specialist judgment in particular issues\n\n847\n00:41:32.160 --> 00:41:32.800\nthen takes on a\n\n848\n00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:38.160\nmultiplicity of permutations. Radiology is probably the best example that I can\n\n849\n00:41:38.160 --> 00:41:38.480\ngive,\n\n850\n00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:43.150\nDavid, that AI in the radiology world, if you go back a year, everyone said\n\n851\n00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:43.840\nwould drive a\n\n852\n00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.990\nradiologist out of business because the computer was going to do everything\n\n853\n00:41:47.990 --> 00:41:48.880\nthat they could do.\n\n854\n00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.080\nInterestingly enough, more recent statistics have shown that the use of AI has\n\n855\n00:41:54.080 --> 00:41:54.400\ndriven an\n\n856\n00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:57.620\nincrease in the demand for radiology expertise because the volumes have\n\n857\n00:41:57.620 --> 00:41:58.160\nincreased.\n\n858\n00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:02.320\nThe basic cases are being handled by the computer and more complex cases and\n\n859\n00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:02.880\nare finding their way\n\n860\n00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.280\nto the radiologist at an increasing level of frequency. So exactly the opposite\n\n861\n00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:07.520\nto the\n\n862\n00:42:07.520 --> 00:42:11.040\nprediction has actually taken place. The way that we bring it to be in the\n\n863\n00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.160\norganization\n\n864\n00:42:12.160 --> 00:42:17.980\nis make them feel comfortable. This is part of progress. Understand how it can\n\n865\n00:42:17.980 --> 00:42:18.400\nbenefit the\n\n866\n00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:23.670\norganization and understand how you as an individual need to adapt in what you\n\n867\n00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:25.040\ndeliver so that you\n\n868\n00:42:25.040 --> 00:42:30.250\npart of the way that moves forward and not fighting it. How are you personally\n\n869\n00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:32.320\nthinking about AI in\n\n870\n00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:35.910\nterms of how it's going to make you a better leader? That's been intrigued for\n\n871\n00:42:35.910 --> 00:42:36.480\nme because\n\n872\n00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:44.640\nmy younger daughter thinks that I'm clueless in bringing this together.\n\n873\n00:42:44.640 --> 00:42:48.480\nPart of the experiences that have been brought to be is how it's made a whole\n\n874\n00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.200\nlot of day-to-day\n\n875\n00:42:49.200 --> 00:42:52.930\nwork that much more efficient. I've also become intrigued by the level of\n\n876\n00:42:52.930 --> 00:42:54.000\ncuriosity that you can\n\n877\n00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:58.530\nexpress and the questions that you can ask because you can ask what might be a\n\n878\n00:42:58.530 --> 00:42:59.760\ndumb question in public\n\n879\n00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.580\nin private and at least see what answer comes back before you embarrass\n\n880\n00:43:03.580 --> 00:43:04.640\nyourself publicly.\n\n881\n00:43:04.640 --> 00:43:08.730\nBut it's just another moment to be able to get an opinion. I think that a\n\n882\n00:43:08.730 --> 00:43:10.240\ndiverse team, a diverse\n\n883\n00:43:10.240 --> 00:43:14.370\nboard has got a multiplicity of backgrounds, assumptions, and ways of seeing\n\n884\n00:43:14.370 --> 00:43:15.520\nquestions answered.\n\n885\n00:43:15.520 --> 00:43:19.530\nAnd I think you've got to give AI an opportunity as well. So it's another\n\n886\n00:43:19.530 --> 00:43:20.720\nmember in a team from an\n\n887\n00:43:20.720 --> 00:43:24.240\nexecutive perspective where it's not unreasonable to ask the question,\n\n888\n00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:30.080\nbut you can't abdicate and you can't be driven by it because eventually there's\n\n889\n00:43:30.080 --> 00:43:30.160\na\n\n890\n00:43:30.160 --> 00:43:33.360\nreversion to a normal where everyone's got the same weapon and we're all going\n\n891\n00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:34.000\nto look the same\n\n892\n00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:38.530\nif we constantly think about AI the same way. So use it, but next I'm sure you\n\n893\n00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:39.840\ndon't stop thinking\n\n894\n00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:44.370\nand try and see what age is that creates. Speaking of thinking, one CEO I\n\n895\n00:43:44.370 --> 00:43:45.280\ntalked to recently was\n\n896\n00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.500\ntalking about the importance of being able to ask the right questions. It's not\n\n897\n00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:50.080\njust taking AI,\n\n898\n00:43:50.080 --> 00:43:58.080\nbut then having the ability to ask the right questions and keep pushing AI that\n\n899\n00:43:58.080 --> 00:43:58.560\nwas really\n\n900\n00:43:58.560 --> 00:44:03.090\nmaking the difference. He was trying to build that ability to ask the right\n\n901\n00:44:03.090 --> 00:44:04.080\nquestion in his\n\n902\n00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:09.290\norganization. What's your perspective on that? David, I go back to some of the\n\n903\n00:44:09.290 --> 00:44:09.840\ngreatest leaders\n\n904\n00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:13.860\nthat I've worked for. They always ask the right question. They just had a way\n\n905\n00:44:13.860 --> 00:44:14.800\nof being able to do\n\n906\n00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.470\nit where it prompted more thoughts before you gave answers and by the time you\n\n907\n00:44:19.470 --> 00:44:20.320\n've given the answer\n\n908\n00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:24.220\nto the first question, it had already prompted the next question and the next\n\n909\n00:44:24.220 --> 00:44:24.960\nquestion and the\n\n910\n00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:30.170\nnext question. So I see the engagement with AI as being part of an executive's\n\n911\n00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:30.640\nresponsibility.\n\n912\n00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:34.530\nIf you can't ask your own team members the right question, you'll never be able\n\n913\n00:44:34.530 --> 00:44:34.880\nto ask\n\n914\n00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.890\nAI the right question. So I think it's part of part and parcel of the growth\n\n915\n00:44:38.890 --> 00:44:40.080\nand development that\n\n916\n00:44:40.080 --> 00:44:43.760\nnow you just have to ask more questions and you've got to ask them faster. So I\n\n917\n00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:44.320\nthink it's actually\n\n918\n00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.280\nmade our jobs more difficult as leaders as opposed to easier.\n\n919\n00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:57.110\nYou say that if you don't understand yourself, you cannot be a leader. Say more\n\n920\n00:44:57.110 --> 00:44:57.520\n.\n\n921\n00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:03.520\nI think levels of self-awareness shape the person that other people receive.\n\n922\n00:45:03.520 --> 00:45:09.040\nAnd I think that understanding the person that you are is fundamentally\n\n923\n00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:09.600\nimportant\n\n924\n00:45:10.160 --> 00:45:13.600\nso that you can position yourself correctly because ultimately social\n\n925\n00:45:13.600 --> 00:45:14.720\nengagements and business\n\n926\n00:45:14.720 --> 00:45:18.330\nengagements are about how you integrate with others. If you're aware of your\n\n927\n00:45:18.330 --> 00:45:19.120\nblind spots,\n\n928\n00:45:19.120 --> 00:45:22.240\nif you're aware of your weaknesses, if you're aware of your idiosyncrasies,\n\n929\n00:45:22.240 --> 00:45:26.910\nI think gives you a far better way of being able to articulate who you are, why\n\n930\n00:45:26.910 --> 00:45:27.200\nyou are,\n\n931\n00:45:27.200 --> 00:45:33.840\nand be able to adapt to different circumstances. So I think that comes as part\n\n932\n00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.040\nof the top three\n\n933\n00:45:35.040 --> 00:45:38.860\nattributes that I would see in leaders that self-aware is fundamentally\n\n934\n00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.600\nimportant.\n\n935\n00:45:39.600 --> 00:45:44.480\nSo I got to ask the follow-up here. When you look at yourself today as a leader\n\n936\n00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:44.480\n,\n\n937\n00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:48.090\nhow do you see yourself today as a leader? And how do you want to be even\n\n938\n00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:48.880\nbetter tomorrow?\n\n939\n00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:57.760\nThere's no excuse for not being present. And the more you know, the more you've\n\n940\n00:45:57.760 --> 00:45:58.320\ngot to listen\n\n941\n00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.720\nbecause you keep learning. And I think that the pressure I put myself under is\n\n942\n00:46:04.720 --> 00:46:06.160\nto make sure that\n\n943\n00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:11.370\nI listen more, speak less, and allow other people the opportunity to express\n\n944\n00:46:11.370 --> 00:46:12.560\nthemselves because\n\n945\n00:46:12.560 --> 00:46:16.000\nthat gives me the chance to be able to assimilate the input that I'm getting\n\n946\n00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:17.440\nand hopefully then\n\n947\n00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.510\nmake the right decisions, be they commercial, be they social, or be they the\n\n948\n00:46:21.510 --> 00:46:22.400\nmentorship and\n\n949\n00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.940\ncoaching roles that leaders have to play. So listening becomes ever\n\n950\n00:46:25.940 --> 00:46:27.360\nincreasingly more important\n\n951\n00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.730\nin the way that I see things. Peter, I got to tell you this has been a lot of\n\n952\n00:46:30.730 --> 00:46:31.520\nfun and I want\n\n953\n00:46:31.520 --> 00:46:34.360\nto have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for\n\n954\n00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:34.720\nthis?\n\n955\n00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:42.480\nWhat three words best describe you? Passionate, courageous, diligent.\n\n956\n00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:46.480\nYour biggest pet peeve? Lazy. Who would play you in a movie?\n\n957\n00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:51.690\nGeorge Clooney. Something you'd only know about South Africa if you're from\n\n958\n00:46:51.690 --> 00:46:51.920\nthere.\n\n959\n00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:57.130\n11 different cultures within a plane flight, a short plane flight away from\n\n960\n00:46:57.130 --> 00:46:57.920\nwherever you are.\n\n961\n00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:03.120\nSo you're an avid golfer, I know that. You're a dream force them, dead or alive\n\n962\n00:47:03.120 --> 00:47:03.440\nthese people\n\n963\n00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:08.740\ncould be. Ben Crenshaw, Ben Hagen, Tiger Woods. You're all time best round of\n\n964\n00:47:08.740 --> 00:47:09.200\ngolf.\n\n965\n00:47:09.200 --> 00:47:15.020\nLevel power around Royal Johannesburg early 90s. What's something you've been\n\n966\n00:47:15.020 --> 00:47:16.000\ncurious about lately\n\n967\n00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:21.600\nthat has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm an avid photographer and the\n\n968\n00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:29.440\nsynchronicity behind aperture, shutter speed, ISO, trade-offs and exposure\n\n969\n00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:30.160\ncompensation\n\n970\n00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:33.220\nin low light has baffled me. So I've been reading about it and I still haven't\n\n971\n00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:34.560\ngot the answer right.\n\n972\n00:47:34.560 --> 00:47:41.830\nWhat's the one thing you do just for you? I take half an hour each day to think\n\n973\n00:47:41.830 --> 00:47:41.840\n.\n\n974\n00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:47.050\nBesides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? A motor\n\n975\n00:47:47.050 --> 00:47:47.680\ncar.\n\n976\n00:47:47.680 --> 00:47:56.320\nCan I ask which one? It's a Ferrari F40. All right. If I turn the radio on in\n\n977\n00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.040\nyour car,\n\n978\n00:47:57.040 --> 00:48:02.000\nin your Ferrari, what would I hear? Earth wind and fire September.\n\n979\n00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.080\nWhat's something about you few people would know? That I got bullied at school.\n\n980\n00:48:06.080 --> 00:48:10.800\nIf you could be one person for a day, who would it be? They're not a divincy.\n\n981\n00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:16.010\nWe're out of the lightning round. You did well. Here we go. Just a few more\n\n982\n00:48:16.010 --> 00:48:16.320\nquestions. We'll\n\n983\n00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:22.320\nwrap this up. Leadership, obviously, people I say, it's lonely at the top. But\n\n984\n00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:22.880\nit can be\n\n985\n00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:27.840\nisolating at times. Who do you rely on to tell you the truth? My wife.\n\n986\n00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.420\nNow your wife, Sarah, what's the best example of how she's really made you a\n\n987\n00:48:31.420 --> 00:48:32.400\nbetter leader?\n\n988\n00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:41.920\nI think we've been married for 38 years and the context, 37 years, a bit of\n\n989\n00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.480\nmake sure I get\n\n990\n00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.690\nthat right. Others have been in real trouble. We've grown together and over the\n\n991\n00:48:47.690 --> 00:48:47.760\nyears,\n\n992\n00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:53.210\nshe's always managed to keep me grounded. Sometimes I can be too optimistic,\n\n993\n00:48:53.210 --> 00:48:53.840\ntoo ambitious,\n\n994\n00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:58.240\nor perhaps a little bit impulsive. It comes from the enthusiasm which I\n\n995\n00:48:58.240 --> 00:48:58.960\napproach each day.\n\n996\n00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:03.600\nShe has a grounded way of making sure that causes me to think.\n\n997\n00:49:03.600 --> 00:49:08.800\nAnd the lifestyle change from being retired to working, it came, as I said\n\n998\n00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:09.200\nearlier in the chat\n\n999\n00:49:09.200 --> 00:49:12.720\ntoday, David, where she said to me, this is not going to work. And she called\n\n1000\n00:49:12.720 --> 00:49:12.880\nit.\n\n1001\n00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:19.980\nShe calls it with care and love. But it doesn't mean she needs to get the\n\n1002\n00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.040\nmessage across.\n\n1003\n00:49:21.040 --> 00:49:25.570\nWhat's leadership look like at home for you? Is it any different than how you\n\n1004\n00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:26.080\nlead it work?\n\n1005\n00:49:26.080 --> 00:49:30.960\nAt least, at least, at work. I'm considered the boss.\n\n1006\n00:49:33.680 --> 00:49:42.000\nI live with Sarah and my two strong-willed girls. It's a collaborative\n\n1007\n00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:42.880\nenvironment.\n\n1008\n00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:49.200\nEach one gets a chance to speak. Each one is a good listener, but each one of\n\n1009\n00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:49.760\nthem has very\n\n1010\n00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:53.600\nfirm opinions. And we ultimately end up making the decisions that are in the\n\n1011\n00:49:53.600 --> 00:49:54.320\nbest interests of\n\n1012\n00:49:54.320 --> 00:50:00.350\nthe family. And so, everyone gets a chance to express their views. But I'm\n\n1013\n00:50:00.350 --> 00:50:02.480\ndelighted with the\n\n1014\n00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:07.000\nlogic and the way that things get done. But every now and again, some of the\n\n1015\n00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:08.160\ntougher decisions\n\n1016\n00:50:08.160 --> 00:50:12.080\nhave to get delegated. What do you see as your unfinished business?\n\n1017\n00:50:12.080 --> 00:50:15.920\nI think in the context of where I find myself today, David, is that\n\n1018\n00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:21.130\nhealthcare in South Africa has got its challenges around accessibility and\n\n1019\n00:50:21.130 --> 00:50:21.680\naffordability.\n\n1020\n00:50:21.680 --> 00:50:26.210\nThere's a barfication in the market where private healthcare delivered in South\n\n1021\n00:50:26.210 --> 00:50:26.640\nAfrica\n\n1022\n00:50:26.640 --> 00:50:31.920\nis top-class amongst the best countries in the world. And the public healthcare\n\n1023\n00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:32.400\nsystem is\n\n1024\n00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:36.220\nfiling 50 million people. We have spare capacity sitting in the private\n\n1025\n00:50:36.220 --> 00:50:37.120\nhealthcare system.\n\n1026\n00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:42.330\nAnd I need to find a way to cross a bridge with government that allows us to\n\n1027\n00:50:42.330 --> 00:50:42.880\nutilize\n\n1028\n00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:48.920\nsome of that spare capacity for the underserved portion of the nation of South\n\n1029\n00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:49.840\nAfrica.\n\n1030\n00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:55.050\nIt's an incredibly difficult challenge, but one which is appropriately\n\n1031\n00:50:55.050 --> 00:50:56.160\npositioned in this\n\n1032\n00:50:56.160 --> 00:50:59.760\ncountry right here and now. And it might not be about just getting the solution\n\n1033\n00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:00.320\n. It's about\n\n1034\n00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:03.360\ngetting the dialogue to be handled in a constructive way.\n\n1035\n00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:07.600\nAs I think about this conversation, you kind of remind me of a teddy bear that\n\n1036\n00:51:07.600 --> 00:51:08.800\ncan be a grizzly bear.\n\n1037\n00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:13.520\nHow do you respond to that?\n\n1038\n00:51:13.520 --> 00:51:17.920\nI don't think that's unfair. People that have known and worked with me for a\n\n1039\n00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:18.560\nlong time\n\n1040\n00:51:18.560 --> 00:51:21.870\ndo understand there's a fun side, there's a cuddly side, there's an approach\n\n1041\n00:51:21.870 --> 00:51:22.400\nable side,\n\n1042\n00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:27.680\nbut there is a moment in time where tough decisions will, if they need to be\n\n1043\n00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:28.160\ntaken,\n\n1044\n00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:32.830\nthey will get taken. I'm just hopeful that in doing it that the right decision\n\n1045\n00:51:32.830 --> 00:51:33.520\ngets achieved,\n\n1046\n00:51:33.520 --> 00:51:36.880\nbut it doesn't come by damaging people. That is my worst fear.\n\n1047\n00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:42.080\nLast question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be\n\n1048\n00:51:42.080 --> 00:51:42.640\na better leader?\n\n1049\n00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:49.360\nHard work intersects with good luck. And if you present those two on a\n\n1050\n00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:50.480\nconsistent basis with a\n\n1051\n00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:54.710\ncare for humans around you, you'll find you get people to follow, people to\n\n1052\n00:51:54.710 --> 00:51:55.600\nfollow you.\n\n1053\n00:51:55.600 --> 00:51:59.950\nAnd if you could do that, there's no setting any boundaries as to where the\n\n1054\n00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:00.880\nlimits are.\n\n1055\n00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:04.000\nPeter, I knew this was going to be a fantastic conversation.\n\n1056\n00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.320\nI want to thank you for taking the time to do it. You're a hell of a good\n\n1057\n00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:09.040\nperson and\n\n1058\n00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:13.120\nobviously a great leader and congratulations on all your success.\n\n1059\n00:52:13.120 --> 00:52:16.940\nThank you so much. I've really enjoyed it and thank you for the way that you've\n\n1060\n00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:17.440\nmade me think\n\n1061\n00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.320\nand for the fun that it's been. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.\n\n1062\n00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:29.870\nDavid, I think this marks the first time I've ever heard you call a podcast\n\n1063\n00:52:29.870 --> 00:52:30.400\nguest,\n\n1064\n00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:35.610\na teddy bear and a grizzly bear. Well, that's because he reminds me so much of\n\n1065\n00:52:35.610 --> 00:52:35.680\nmyself.\n\n1066\n00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:43.660\nI was called that by Dave Dorman, who used to be on our board when I was at\n\n1067\n00:52:43.660 --> 00:52:44.400\nyoung brands.\n\n1068\n00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.600\nAnd he called me a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear. And when I was\n\n1069\n00:52:49.600 --> 00:52:50.000\ntalking to Peter,\n\n1070\n00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.640\nI thought if there's ever a teddy bear that could be a grizzly bear, it's him.\n\n1071\n00:52:54.640 --> 00:53:02.320\nHe's taken over my role. But I think that basically means that, look, people\n\n1072\n00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:02.720\nmay think\n\n1073\n00:53:02.720 --> 00:53:10.080\nyou're kind of soft and you're very, you know, into treating people well and\n\n1074\n00:53:10.080 --> 00:53:11.040\nbeing as kind as\n\n1075\n00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:15.290\nyou can possibly be. But people don't perform or people take advantage or\n\n1076\n00:53:15.290 --> 00:53:16.880\npeople get out of line.\n\n1077\n00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:22.920\nYou can very quickly become tough minded and let people know that that's\n\n1078\n00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.080\nunacceptable and\n\n1079\n00:53:24.080 --> 00:53:29.600\nwe got to change things around here with your performance and how you're acting\n\n1080\n00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:29.600\n.\n\n1081\n00:53:29.600 --> 00:53:33.610\nAnd I think that's what you get from the discussion we had with Peter. He's an\n\n1082\n00:53:33.610 --> 00:53:34.160\nawesome guy,\n\n1083\n00:53:34.160 --> 00:53:41.430\nmuch more awesome than me, by the way, and probably a much better teddy bear\n\n1084\n00:53:41.430 --> 00:53:42.160\nand a much\n\n1085\n00:53:42.160 --> 00:53:47.980\nbetter grizzly bear when he has to be. Well, you can certainly tell that he is\n\n1086\n00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:48.560\nable\n\n1087\n00:53:48.560 --> 00:53:51.270\nto lean into both of those facets of his personality throughout this\n\n1088\n00:53:51.270 --> 00:53:51.920\nconversation.\n\n1089\n00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:55.760\nAnd David, I want to debrief some of the other concepts that you two talked\n\n1090\n00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:56.720\nabout so that\n\n1091\n00:53:56.720 --> 00:54:00.320\neveryone listening has something really tangible that they can take away\n\n1092\n00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:03.520\nfrom this conversation and apply it to their leadership and to their life.\n\n1093\n00:54:03.520 --> 00:54:07.910\nIn the episode, David, Peter talks about the cost of leadership. And he\n\n1094\n00:54:07.910 --> 00:54:08.240\nmentions,\n\n1095\n00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:12.770\nyou know, leadership isn't always a popular position. Sometimes doing what is\n\n1096\n00:54:12.770 --> 00:54:13.120\nright and\n\n1097\n00:54:13.120 --> 00:54:17.650\nbest for the company may come at a personal price or may make people dislike\n\n1098\n00:54:17.650 --> 00:54:18.160\nyou.\n\n1099\n00:54:18.160 --> 00:54:21.360\nTalk about how you navigated that throughout your career. I mean, we just said\n\n1100\n00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:21.760\nit, you know,\n\n1101\n00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:24.960\nsometimes you have to be a grizzly bear and sometimes you can be a teddy bear.\n\n1102\n00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:25.360\nHow do you\n\n1103\n00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:29.600\nnavigate that tension as the leader who has to make those unpopular calls?\n\n1104\n00:54:29.600 --> 00:54:34.400\nWell, I think when you are the leader, there is a cost of leadership, you know,\n\n1105\n00:54:34.400 --> 00:54:38.000\nand that is you have to make the decision. You have to make the tough call when\n\n1106\n00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:38.160\nit's\n\n1107\n00:54:38.160 --> 00:54:43.980\nwhen it's there. You know, it's always fun when everybody agrees and it's easy\n\n1108\n00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:44.480\nto make those\n\n1109\n00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:48.010\ndecisions, but there are times when not everyone agrees and there are times\n\n1110\n00:54:48.010 --> 00:54:48.640\nwhen people\n\n1111\n00:54:50.240 --> 00:54:55.040\nget out of line and you need to whip the team back into shape. And that's when\n\n1112\n00:54:55.040 --> 00:54:55.760\nyou got to become a\n\n1113\n00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:01.600\ngrizzly bear. And when you're a grizzly bear, it's not always popular. But you\n\n1114\n00:55:01.600 --> 00:55:02.320\ndo it because\n\n1115\n00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:06.720\nit's the right thing. You do it because you know, if you don't do it, you know,\n\n1116\n00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:07.200\nit will be the\n\n1117\n00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:10.890\nwrong thing because people will look at your standards and come up with the\n\n1118\n00:55:10.890 --> 00:55:12.000\nwrong conclusion.\n\n1119\n00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.700\nI spoke at a conference today and someone asked, what happens when you have a\n\n1120\n00:55:15.700 --> 00:55:16.560\nreally high talent\n\n1121\n00:55:16.560 --> 00:55:23.490\nperformer that doesn't play team ball? And I said, first of all, you got to\n\n1122\n00:55:23.490 --> 00:55:24.240\nhave confidence in\n\n1123\n00:55:24.240 --> 00:55:28.060\nyourself as a leader that you can recruit somebody that can be a high talent\n\n1124\n00:55:28.060 --> 00:55:29.120\nperformer that will\n\n1125\n00:55:29.120 --> 00:55:33.130\nplay team ball. Then you got to have confidence in your company, that your\n\n1126\n00:55:33.130 --> 00:55:34.400\ncompany is good enough\n\n1127\n00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.720\nthat, you know, you're going to be able to recruit that person to come in and\n\n1128\n00:55:37.720 --> 00:55:38.880\nbe high talent and then\n\n1129\n00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.090\nplay team ball. And then you got to know that if you don't exercise the\n\n1130\n00:55:44.090 --> 00:55:45.120\nprivilege of leadership,\n\n1131\n00:55:45.120 --> 00:55:51.360\nif you don't step up, okay, there is a real cost of not leading. And that means\n\n1132\n00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:52.160\nthat you're going\n\n1133\n00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:56.340\nto be setting a standard that's unacceptable to your people. You can't talk out\n\n1134\n00:55:56.340 --> 00:55:57.040\nof both sides\n\n1135\n00:55:57.040 --> 00:56:00.720\nof your mouth. You can't talk about the cultural values you have and then have\n\n1136\n00:56:00.720 --> 00:56:01.760\na bad apple that\n\n1137\n00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:06.620\ndoesn't live by it. And the excuse is, well, hey, he performs, he drives lots\n\n1138\n00:56:06.620 --> 00:56:08.000\nof revenue and profit\n\n1139\n00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:12.310\nand or he or she can't, I can't take them out because of that. So what I think\n\n1140\n00:56:12.310 --> 00:56:13.040\nyou have to do\n\n1141\n00:56:13.040 --> 00:56:20.000\nis you have to be a grizzly bear in a situation like that. And you got to pull\n\n1142\n00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:20.880\nthat person aside\n\n1143\n00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:24.960\nand coach first and tell him, hey, look, you are the best sales person we have.\n\n1144\n00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:25.440\nYou're getting\n\n1145\n00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:31.080\ntremendous results and you obviously know how to treat your customers well. But\n\n1146\n00:56:31.080 --> 00:56:31.680\nwhy aren't you\n\n1147\n00:56:31.680 --> 00:56:35.510\ntreating the people that you work with on the team? Well, why do they think you\n\n1148\n00:56:35.510 --> 00:56:36.320\n're such a jerk?\n\n1149\n00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:39.840\nAnd you know, you got to really help that person understand how he's perceived\n\n1150\n00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:40.640\non the team and then\n\n1151\n00:56:40.640 --> 00:56:43.840\nsay it's unacceptable. And if you don't change, we're going to have a bigger\n\n1152\n00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:44.720\nproblem in a couple\n\n1153\n00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:48.400\nmonths, but you really work on it. Let's see where we're at. And then if they\n\n1154\n00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:49.120\ndon't change,\n\n1155\n00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:52.530\nyou know, after you hit him with that two by four, then, you know, you\n\n1156\n00:56:52.530 --> 00:56:53.760\nultimately have to take\n\n1157\n00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:58.970\nhim out. But that's being a grizzly bear. And you know, it's easy to be a teddy\n\n1158\n00:56:58.970 --> 00:56:59.760\nbear. The teddy\n\n1159\n00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:04.960\nbear times are when everybody agrees. But you know, you got to be tough minded\n\n1160\n00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.520\nenough to make\n\n1161\n00:57:05.520 --> 00:57:08.800\nmake the right decision, the tough decision when it's called for.\n\n1162\n00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:13.040\nI hear a lot of leaders talk about how that piece of leadership, the making the\n\n1163\n00:57:13.040 --> 00:57:13.600\ntough call,\n\n1164\n00:57:13.600 --> 00:57:17.040\nis really what makes them feel isolated. So David, during your time at Young\n\n1165\n00:57:17.040 --> 00:57:17.360\nBrands,\n\n1166\n00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:20.560\nwhen you had to be that grizzly bear and make the tough calls, how did you find\n\n1167\n00:57:20.560 --> 00:57:20.640\n,\n\n1168\n00:57:20.640 --> 00:57:25.760\nhow did you maintain relationship with the people close to you?\n\n1169\n00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.880\nWell, the people close to be, you know, stayed close to be because they were\n\n1170\n00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:31.360\ndoing their job and\n\n1171\n00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:35.740\nthey were doing things the right way. The people who weren't close to me were\n\n1172\n00:57:35.740 --> 00:57:36.640\nthe people who\n\n1173\n00:57:37.200 --> 00:57:40.800\nweren't living our culture. And, you know, what I try to do is bring them back\n\n1174\n00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:41.280\non board\n\n1175\n00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:46.640\nand so that they could be on the team. And, you know, I really believe very\n\n1176\n00:57:46.640 --> 00:57:48.160\nmuch in coaching\n\n1177\n00:57:48.160 --> 00:57:55.680\nfirst. And so that was just the way how I tried to run the railroad.\n\n1178\n00:57:55.680 --> 00:58:01.200\nBut here's the key point. The key point is that I wouldn't want anybody else\n\n1179\n00:58:01.200 --> 00:58:02.480\nmaking that decision.\n\n1180\n00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:06.000\nI wouldn't want anybody else to have to step up and make the tough call.\n\n1181\n00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.320\nI mean, I wanted to be the leader. You know, I wanted to have the job that I\n\n1182\n00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:10.480\nhad\n\n1183\n00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:13.860\nand I viewed it as a privilege of leadership. And when you're a leader, you've\n\n1184\n00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:14.640\ngot to exercise\n\n1185\n00:58:14.640 --> 00:58:19.850\nthe privilege of leadership by making the good, the easy decisions, the\n\n1186\n00:58:19.850 --> 00:58:20.880\nsomewhat tougher decisions\n\n1187\n00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:25.120\nand then the really hard decisions and you can't shy away from them. And you\n\n1188\n00:58:25.120 --> 00:58:25.920\nobviously want to\n\n1189\n00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.850\nget your team input in before you make any decision and make sure you do the\n\n1190\n00:58:29.850 --> 00:58:30.640\nright homework\n\n1191\n00:58:30.640 --> 00:58:35.850\nbefore you make any decision. David, you alluded to this in that discussion\n\n1192\n00:58:35.850 --> 00:58:37.200\njust now, but the idea\n\n1193\n00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:40.880\nof team players over individual performers and throughout this conversation,\n\n1194\n00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:41.840\nthat really comes\n\n1195\n00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:48.600\nthrough Peter's emphasis on picking team players over individual talent. How do\n\n1196\n00:58:48.600 --> 00:58:49.680\nyou think about that?\n\n1197\n00:58:49.680 --> 00:58:53.690\nI mean, would you pass over someone who is individually talented if they weren\n\n1198\n00:58:53.690 --> 00:58:54.640\n't a team player?\n\n1199\n00:58:55.280 --> 00:59:01.280\nYes, I would not have a star performer if they weren't a team player because\n\n1200\n00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:02.000\nthat person will\n\n1201\n00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:08.080\nbring the team down ultimately. But it's the old magic of the end. And I'm sure\n\n1202\n00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:08.960\nPeter feels the same\n\n1203\n00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:14.170\nway. I want a star talent and a team player. And if you believe in yourself and\n\n1204\n00:59:14.170 --> 00:59:14.960\nyou believe in\n\n1205\n00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:19.630\nyour company, you can get both. Anytime I brought in a team player that couldn\n\n1206\n00:59:19.630 --> 00:59:20.880\n't do their job well,\n\n1207\n00:59:21.520 --> 00:59:25.920\nthey didn't stay on the team that long. So you got to get somebody that's a\n\n1208\n00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:27.120\nteam player and really\n\n1209\n00:59:27.120 --> 00:59:30.810\ndoes their job well enough to keep it. And yeah, that doesn't mean you\n\n1210\n00:59:30.810 --> 00:59:32.080\nnecessarily have to be a\n\n1211\n00:59:32.080 --> 00:59:37.290\nstar, but you got to be damn good to be on the team. My approach, Coola, was I\n\n1212\n00:59:37.290 --> 00:59:38.080\nwanted a A team\n\n1213\n00:59:38.080 --> 00:59:42.210\nmentality. I wanted people if they were on our team, I wanted them to feel like\n\n1214\n00:59:42.210 --> 00:59:43.680\nthey're on the A team.\n\n1215\n00:59:43.680 --> 00:59:47.350\nThe only way they could feel like they're on the A team is if you have high\n\n1216\n00:59:47.350 --> 00:59:48.400\ntalent that works\n\n1217\n00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:52.920\ntogether and knows how to function as a team. And that's when what does they\n\n1218\n00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:54.480\nsay that the\n\n1219\n00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.720\ntide rises for all boats. I think about what you say a lot, David, that no one\n\n1220\n00:59:58.720 --> 00:59:59.600\nwas to be part of\n\n1221\n00:59:59.600 --> 01:00:03.920\nsomething mediocre. And that goes for the noble cause of the business and\n\n1222\n01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:04.640\nresults-oriented\n\n1223\n01:00:04.640 --> 01:00:08.370\nbusinesses. But also, no one wants to be part of a mediocre team with people\n\n1224\n01:00:08.370 --> 01:00:09.520\nthat they know\n\n1225\n01:00:09.520 --> 01:00:15.040\ndon't bring all star talent to work every day. Yeah, they're strictly linked.\n\n1226\n01:00:15.040 --> 01:00:16.160\nYou can't go to\n\n1227\n01:00:16.160 --> 01:00:19.170\nwork and be a part of something great if you're on a team that doesn't play\n\n1228\n01:00:19.170 --> 01:00:20.000\nball together.\n\n1229\n01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.900\nDavid, this last concept will really speak to those emerging leaders that are\n\n1230\n01:00:23.900 --> 01:00:24.560\nlistening\n\n1231\n01:00:24.560 --> 01:00:28.400\nto this podcast. And it's an interesting piece of advice that Peter offers in\n\n1232\n01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:29.280\nthe conversation.\n\n1233\n01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:35.920\nHe says that when you're thinking about your career to pick your boss carefully\n\n1234\n01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:35.920\n,\n\n1235\n01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:39.890\nfor Peter, this is the most important choice that you can make when you join an\n\n1236\n01:00:39.890 --> 01:00:40.960\norganization.\n\n1237\n01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:46.440\nHow do you know what to look for in a boss? And can you pick your boss when you\n\n1238\n01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:47.360\n're early on in your\n\n1239\n01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:51.190\ncareer? I think when you first get out of schools, it's harder to pick your own\n\n1240\n01:00:51.190 --> 01:00:52.160\nboss, but you can\n\n1241\n01:00:52.160 --> 01:00:58.190\ncertainly pick the company. You can certainly get a good sense of the energy,\n\n1242\n01:00:58.190 --> 01:01:00.000\nthe vibe, the culture\n\n1243\n01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:05.210\nof the company in the interview process. You can get a feel as to whether you\n\n1244\n01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:06.000\nthink you would fit\n\n1245\n01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:10.130\nthere or it's a kind of place where it has to work environment where you want\n\n1246\n01:01:10.130 --> 01:01:11.280\nto be. And if\n\n1247\n01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:15.410\nyou're really lucky when you get out of school and you're going for your first\n\n1248\n01:01:15.410 --> 01:01:17.680\njob, you'll actually\n\n1249\n01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:20.900\nget to meet the person you're going to work for and then you can make that same\n\n1250\n01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:21.680\nassessment. And\n\n1251\n01:01:21.680 --> 01:01:27.760\nif you can go to one, two, three, four, or five different places, I think then\n\n1252\n01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:29.120\nthe picker you can\n\n1253\n01:01:29.120 --> 01:01:35.920\nbe. If you're really just struggling in a tough economic environment just to\n\n1254\n01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:36.640\nfind a job,\n\n1255\n01:01:36.640 --> 01:01:39.760\nit's hard to be real picky when you're starting out because you got to get\n\n1256\n01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:41.040\nexperience. But once\n\n1257\n01:01:41.040 --> 01:01:44.630\nyou get experience and you start working in the company and you decide that,\n\n1258\n01:01:44.630 --> 01:01:45.760\nhey, you're going to\n\n1259\n01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:50.430\nmove to another function or another part of that company, I think that's when\n\n1260\n01:01:50.430 --> 01:01:51.520\nyou really want to\n\n1261\n01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.670\nmake sure you're picking your boss and that somebody's going to really promote\n\n1262\n01:01:54.670 --> 01:01:55.600\nyou and help you and\n\n1263\n01:01:55.600 --> 01:02:00.120\ngrow you. And then if you're going to go outside, you certainly don't leave\n\n1264\n01:02:00.120 --> 01:02:01.360\nuntil you really believe\n\n1265\n01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:05.090\nthat you have a boss that's going to invest in you. There are two reasons, I\n\n1266\n01:02:05.090 --> 01:02:06.000\ntalk about this all\n\n1267\n01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:10.160\nthe time. There's two reasons why people leave their company. One is they don't\n\n1268\n01:02:10.160 --> 01:02:10.720\nget along with\n\n1269\n01:02:10.720 --> 01:02:15.240\ntheir boss and two is they don't feel appreciated for what they do. And many\n\n1270\n01:02:15.240 --> 01:02:17.040\ntimes, those things\n\n1271\n01:02:17.040 --> 01:02:20.440\nare linked because the boss doesn't show you appreciation. The boss doesn't\n\n1272\n01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:21.040\ngive you the\n\n1273\n01:02:21.040 --> 01:02:29.360\nrecognition that you really are looking for. So it's obvious that you as a\n\n1274\n01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:31.360\nleader wanting to grow,\n\n1275\n01:02:31.360 --> 01:02:37.180\nyou want to pick the boss, pick that's going to be a coach that's going to make\n\n1276\n01:02:37.180 --> 01:02:37.840\nyou feel valued\n\n1277\n01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:43.660\nand it's going to invest in you. And I think as you move into your career and\n\n1278\n01:02:43.660 --> 01:02:44.480\nyou start to get the\n\n1279\n01:02:44.480 --> 01:02:48.720\nsecond job, the third job or the fourth job, I think it's absolutely critical\n\n1280\n01:02:48.720 --> 01:02:49.600\nto do exactly what\n\n1281\n01:02:49.600 --> 01:02:54.320\nPeter's talking about. Pick your boss. Do your very best to pick your boss. And\n\n1282\n01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:54.800\nyou know what\n\n1283\n01:02:54.800 --> 01:03:00.010\nreally makes you able to pick your boss? Be damn good at what you do. Crush it\n\n1284\n01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:01.360\nwhere you're at.\n\n1285\n01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.190\nBe someone who's so good at what they do that everybody wants and then you're\n\n1286\n01:03:05.190 --> 01:03:06.160\nin demand.\n\n1287\n01:03:06.160 --> 01:03:09.550\nAnd then you can be a little picky. If you don't really do your job, well, it's\n\n1288\n01:03:09.550 --> 01:03:10.000\nhard to be in\n\n1289\n01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:14.010\nmuch demand. We talk a lot among our team, David, about why we do the work we\n\n1290\n01:03:14.010 --> 01:03:15.840\ndo. And it's to take\n\n1291\n01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.940\ndown toxic work culture and make the world a better place by developing better\n\n1292\n01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:19.840\nleaders. And it's funny\n\n1293\n01:03:19.840 --> 01:03:23.280\nwhen we talk to people who listen to the podcast or who get our daily emails.\n\n1294\n01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:24.960\nWhen we talk about\n\n1295\n01:03:24.960 --> 01:03:29.290\ntoxic work culture, it's almost like everybody has a story of a bad boss.\n\n1296\n01:03:29.290 --> 01:03:30.560\nEveryone has a story\n\n1297\n01:03:30.560 --> 01:03:35.770\nabout a bad boss. And I mean, I do. I'm sure you might have a story about a bad\n\n1298\n01:03:35.770 --> 01:03:36.400\nboss, but\n\n1299\n01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:41.810\nyou know, the whole point of this work that we're doing is to make that happen\n\n1300\n01:03:41.810 --> 01:03:43.920\nless. And I think\n\n1301\n01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:49.120\nit's so important to think through the cost of working in an environment or for\n\n1302\n01:03:49.120 --> 01:03:49.360\nsomeone who\n\n1303\n01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:53.890\nisn't self-aware and doesn't appreciate you because it's not just that you go\n\n1304\n01:03:53.890 --> 01:03:54.720\nto work and have a\n\n1305\n01:03:54.720 --> 01:03:59.130\nbad day at work because you have a toxic work culture or a bad boss. It seeps\n\n1306\n01:03:59.130 --> 01:04:00.160\ninto every aspect\n\n1307\n01:04:00.160 --> 01:04:07.750\nof your life. And so I love this piece of advice from Peter. And I am hopeful\n\n1308\n01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:09.200\nthat this podcast is\n\n1309\n01:04:09.200 --> 01:04:14.720\nhelping bad bosses become better bosses all across the world. Well, that's why\n\n1310\n01:04:14.720 --> 01:04:14.880\nwe're\n\n1311\n01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:18.780\ndoing it. We are trying to make the world a better place by helping to develop\n\n1312\n01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:19.600\nbetter leaders.\n\n1313\n01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:26.400\nAnd when you look at the statistics, I think over 80% people say that there's a\n\n1314\n01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.120\ntoxic work\n\n1315\n01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:33.440\nenvironment out there. And that is so, so sad. And our job is to help leaders\n\n1316\n01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.200\nbecome better at\n\n1317\n01:04:35.200 --> 01:04:40.410\nwhat they do. Now, the reality is, is that yeah, we're doing the best job we\n\n1318\n01:04:40.410 --> 01:04:41.440\npossibly can at that,\n\n1319\n01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:46.170\nor at least we're trying. But the people that tune in, you know, these are\n\n1320\n01:04:46.170 --> 01:04:46.880\nleaders who want to\n\n1321\n01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.230\nget better. You know, everybody's listening right now is listening because they\n\n1322\n01:04:50.230 --> 01:04:50.880\nwant to learn\n\n1323\n01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:55.240\nfrom leaders that they want to get better. But I think, you know, what they can\n\n1324\n01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:56.000\ndo by getting\n\n1325\n01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:59.720\nbetter in their workplace is set the example that other people will want to\n\n1326\n01:04:59.720 --> 01:05:00.880\nfollow. And I think\n\n1327\n01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:04.480\nthat's how we can really make the biggest difference. You know, if you if you\n\n1328\n01:05:04.480 --> 01:05:05.520\nlead the right way and\n\n1329\n01:05:05.520 --> 01:05:09.550\nyou get great results, people want to do what you do. And, you know, that's\n\n1330\n01:05:09.550 --> 01:05:10.720\nwhat I'm hoping this\n\n1331\n01:05:10.720 --> 01:05:14.560\npodcast does is helps people lead the right way by learning from other people\n\n1332\n01:05:14.560 --> 01:05:15.520\nthat really know\n\n1333\n01:05:15.520 --> 01:05:19.040\nwhat they're doing. You know, in this particular episode, you know, I think we\n\n1334\n01:05:19.040 --> 01:05:20.960\nlearned a few things\n\n1335\n01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:25.360\nis that, you know, there is a cost of leadership. You have to step up and lead\n\n1336\n01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:27.360\nwhen it's time. And\n\n1337\n01:05:27.360 --> 01:05:31.720\nif you don't lead, you're not exercising the privilege of leadership. And you\n\n1338\n01:05:31.720 --> 01:05:32.320\n've got to make\n\n1339\n01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:36.850\nobviously the easy decisions are easier, the tougher decisions are tougher, but\n\n1340\n01:05:36.850 --> 01:05:37.200\nyou have to\n\n1341\n01:05:37.200 --> 01:05:41.590\nmake them all. The other thing is, is that, you know, if you get in a position\n\n1342\n01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:42.800\nwhere you're hiring\n\n1343\n01:05:42.800 --> 01:05:48.250\npeople and building a team, you can't sacrifice your standards. You've got to\n\n1344\n01:05:48.250 --> 01:05:48.800\nyou've got to be\n\n1345\n01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:51.770\ndemanding. You've got to have two things happen. You've got to have people who\n\n1346\n01:05:51.770 --> 01:05:52.640\nplay on a team,\n\n1347\n01:05:53.200 --> 01:05:57.440\nand then they're very talented at what they do. One without the others,\n\n1348\n01:05:57.440 --> 01:05:58.240\nunacceptable.\n\n1349\n01:05:58.240 --> 01:06:03.450\nAnd you as a leader have got to create a team mentality that helps you, helps\n\n1350\n01:06:03.450 --> 01:06:03.840\nyou, you know,\n\n1351\n01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:09.680\nget that the talented people that can play on a team. And last but not least,\n\n1352\n01:06:09.680 --> 01:06:11.040\nas you, as you,\n\n1353\n01:06:11.040 --> 01:06:16.990\nyou know, think about your career, you know, if you're going to school, go to\n\n1354\n01:06:16.990 --> 01:06:17.600\nthe best school,\n\n1355\n01:06:17.600 --> 01:06:21.190\nyou can go get the best grades you can. So maybe you can have the opportunity\n\n1356\n01:06:21.190 --> 01:06:22.000\nto pick your boss\n\n1357\n01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:26.010\nbecause everybody really wants you, okay? But then once you get into the work\n\n1358\n01:06:26.010 --> 01:06:26.240\nflows,\n\n1359\n01:06:26.240 --> 01:06:31.530\nand you crush it where you're at, you know, absolutely do a great job so that\n\n1360\n01:06:31.530 --> 01:06:32.000\nyou become\n\n1361\n01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.020\nin demand. So when you get that next job, you can pick your boss, because when\n\n1362\n01:06:36.020 --> 01:06:36.800\nyou can pick your\n\n1363\n01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:40.640\nboss, you can pick the person who's really going to invest in you and help you\n\n1364\n01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:42.640\nachieve the potential\n\n1365\n01:06:42.640 --> 01:06:46.730\nthat you have within. And that's what we all want to do, right? We all want to\n\n1366\n01:06:46.730 --> 01:06:47.760\ngrow to our\n\n1367\n01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:52.430\nultimate potential. And, you know, when you have a boss that invests in you,\n\n1368\n01:06:52.430 --> 01:06:53.920\nman, are you lucky.\n\n1369\n01:06:53.920 --> 01:07:00.510\nOne of my great, great fortunes was that I never worked for anybody that didn't\n\n1370\n01:07:00.510 --> 01:07:01.280\ninvest in me. It\n\n1371\n01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.710\nwasn't because I picked him. I just got lucky, okay? But if I could pick him, I\n\n1372\n01:07:05.710 --> 01:07:06.240\nwould have picked\n\n1373\n01:07:06.240 --> 01:07:09.810\nevery one of them because they taught me a lot and they believed in me and they\n\n1374\n01:07:09.810 --> 01:07:10.640\nhelped me become\n\n1375\n01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:15.800\nthe best that I could possibly be. And, you know, I'm sure I fell short many,\n\n1376\n01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:16.960\nmany times, but man,\n\n1377\n01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:20.400\nI had them rooting for me and cheering me on all along the way.\n\n1378\n01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:24.800\nI love it, David. Well, thank you so much for a wonderful conversation with\n\n1379\n01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:25.600\nPeter Whartonhood.\n\n1380\n01:07:25.600 --> 01:07:29.800\nAnd thank you for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David\n\n1381\n01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:30.400\nNovak.\n\n1382\n01:07:30.400 --> 01:07:32.880\nTune in next Thursday and we will see you soon.\n","pinned_at","featured_at","mix_url","https://chtbl.com/track/DCB44F/traffic.megaphone.fm/DVL2508539267.mp3","dx_media_id",3497,"published_date","2026-03-12","itunes_episode_id",282,"youtube_id","7hPiQ08gc84","2026-08-19T21:35:02.000000Z","Listen to this leadership podcast with Peter Wharton-Hood, CEO of LIFE Healthcare Group, and discover what it looks like to make your team your top priority.","dx_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/xHtiLswRoRtnFH5McO6L2h71bvnsIY8cNWpAv9dY.mp3","dx_filename","xHtiLswRoRtnFH5McO6L2h71bvnsIY8cNWpAv9dY.mp3","dx_mux_playback_id","slyXEe9gHpSeCE0102q7nYQ00nRD006yN1BbAaw2c00fXq3M","dx_waveform_url","https://dnl.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/uploads/waveforms/3497.json",4062397,"thumbnail_url","https://img.youtube.com/vi/7hPiQ08gc84/maxresdefault.jpg","dx_media",{"_23":268,"_101":280,"_103":278,"_104":-5,"_106":282,"_107":290,"_109":-5,"_110":284,"_75":285,"_112":-5},"9XeNzuwAZUu2zdFq3F1Fuh00LwCHWYgjV5d3PfKRYIZ00",{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":297},[295],{"_23":141,"_101":162,"_103":146,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},{"_23":143,"_101":161,"_103":148,"_104":-5,"_106":-5,"_107":-5,"_109":-5,"_110":-5,"_75":-5,"_112":-5},{"_23":151,"_165":178,"_125":296},{"_59":60,"_150":151},{"_59":60,"_150":151},"user","token","favorites",[],"collections",[],"env",{"_306":307,"_308":309,"_310":311,"_312":313,"_314":315},"GOOGLE_CLIENT_ID","644017954836-qpllhu38r0tsrtfq85ukntcvsb0akbht.apps.googleusercontent.com","APPLE_CLIENT_ID","com.howleaderslead.webapp","APPLE_REDIRECT_URI","https://www.howleaderslead.com/auth/apple-callback","APP_URL","https://howleaderslead.com","GTM_ID","GTM-5D4FT62G"]

Sometimes it’s OK to be a fast follower rather than a trailblazer

More from Peter Wharton-Hood