Welcome to Hal Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen to in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. You know, when I think about it, I'm not sure I know anyone with a more interesting and wide-ranging career than my guest today, Bonnie Hill. For three decades, Bonnie has been successful in pretty much every area you can lead in, business, government, education, and even philanthropy. She's currently the co-founder of Icon Blue, a top-branding company in LA. And if all that weren't enough, she's also served on over a dozen Fortune 500 boards, including Yumsboard, so I've gotten the chance to see the extraordinary presence Bonnie brings to the room. She's accomplished so much in her career, and she's gleaned so much about what great leaders and great organizations have in common. So you're about to get an absolute goldmine of wisdom and some big insights, but I also want you to listen for how Bonnie puts a high priority on respect. When respect is your guiding principle, believe me, it's a game-changer. You listen more closely, your awareness, and understanding go to another level. You know how to navigate conflicts and tough situations, and ultimately, you earn the respect of everyone around you, just like Bonnie has. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Bonnie Hill . Bonnie, I always like to start at the beginning. Tell us about your upbringing. Well, David, I'm like many other people that I know of. I was born into a dysfunctional family. Father left the day I was born. Mother couldn't handle that, became alcoholic. And so I learned how to take care of myself and my mother at a very early age. And those were some difficult times. Sometimes we were homeless. Many times we didn't know exactly where our next meal would come from, but through all that, there were many things I learned from my mother. I eventually came to a place where I realized that I had two mothers, the sober mother, that taught me so many things about life and how to deal with myself as an individual and then the other mother, that could not handle herself and couldn't handle life. And so that was sort of an early beginning. Oh, wow. Well, let's talk just about what the sober mother taught you, Bonnie. That's an interesting, interesting concept. What were those big insights that she taught you? That insight came sort of later in years, but among the things she taught me was it was okay to be raggedy, but it was not okay to be dirty. So even though I didn't have the best of clothes and they were hand-me-downs, they always had to be clean. Another thing she taught me is you never stepped outside of the house with roll ers in your hair or your head tied up. And she said, you must always be presentable. And then the other thing, and one of the final things that really has stuck with me is no matter where you live, no matter how bad it is, and we lived in storefronts and with other people and in some dire straits, but your house had to always be clean. It could be poor, but it could not be dirty. And so those were things that have stayed with me for a long time and sometimes it would make me a little anal. So do you remember your first official job where you actually got paid as a kid and what did it teach you? My first official job where I got paid as a kid was in my high school, my climate's high school in Oakland, California. And that was because when they put me in a typing class, which I wanted, because I had asked to get out of college prep and to get into something that would help me get a job. And they let me work in the vice principal's office and they paid me $12 a month, which helped me to one save up enough money to have a dress for graduation and sometimes help with food from my mother and myself. So that was my first paid job. I was a junior high school student and got paid for working in the vice principal's office. What did that teach you? It taught me that it was important to work because my goal was always to get my mother and myself off of welfare because by this time we were on welfare. And it taught me that you could work and that you could make a living. And even though it wasn't the kind of living you might have wanted, perhaps it wasn't like everyone else's life, but it was a living and we were able to eat. So it taught me that I had to work in order to eat. That was a great lesson. That's a good correlation there. But you've had a fascinating career and I want to get into that. But tell us a story about how you got your career going that will tell us a lot about the kind of person you are. Well, I did get clerical jobs along the way, David. I worked at the Oakland Army base. A friend had stolen the announcement off of the bulletin board and given it to me. So I took the test and passed the civil service exam. So that was my first real job and I was just turning 18. And there I learned traffic management. And one of the generals there saw me standing in the aisles filing and he said, "Young lady, what are you doing standing out here filing?" And I said, "Well, I can't afford to go to school and this is the next best thing." And he said, "I'll tell you what. You go to school nights and I will see to it that you get the opportunity to earn more money to move up on the job." So that was an innovation. So I would work all day. I'd get a bus all the way to San Francisco to go to school and get home at the 1130, 12 o'clock at night and had to be on call for ports of call. And it would sometimes be 4.35 o'clock in the morning when we had to show up. So that was the beginning of knowing that you had to have a bit more education to be able, for me, to be able to get a job that was going to be significant. I think the job you thought about was I left the Army base and I went to work at Mills College as a secretary. And it was there working as a secretary that my husband at that time had a severe heart attack. He did not die at that time. But I was becoming the breadwinner. I had a small child by this time. And so that's when I wanted to become a student at Mills College. And you know the story, fast forward. The Dean of Admissions, when I spoke with her, she let me become a student on a part-time basis. And the president of Mills College allowed me to go without pay intuition. And so at Mills College, I went from being a secretary to an administrative assistant, to assistant dean of student services, to interim head of the ethnic studies department. And then that led to my jobs from there on. So I owe them a great deal in terms of allowing me to grow in a four-year period of time at that same time. Instead of taking the ten years, they thought it would take to finish my bachelor's. I did it in two and a half years, going to community colleges at night, taking care of a husband and taking care of my daughter as well. And then when I finished that, my counselor at Mills said, "Well, you have to go for the masters." And I thought, "You're kidding." But I did. She called. I went for the masters. And then my tutor at Cal State Hayward said, "Well, you're going to have to go for the doctorate." And so the rest is kind of history there. But a lot of people who intervened, you know, when you wrote the book, "Taking People With You," a lot of people took me with them in that way. Oh, that's great. Bonnie, you're so multi-dimensional. You started ICON Blue, which is a brand marketing company. You've been CEO of Times Mirror, charitable foundation, the head of public affairs for the L.A. Times, the dean of school of commerce at the University of Virginia, not a bad school. And the assistant secretary in the U.S. Department of Education, and you've been a special advisor to George W. Bush for Consumer Affairs. Yes, that's just such an unbelievable resume. Which of those areas did you enjoy the most and why? I believe I really enjoyed most working for President George H.W. Bush. And was right after I had served in the Reagan administration and President Bush became the president. I worked with him on the campaign. He swore me in when I became assistant secretary at the Department of Education . And spending time with the Innes family at Kennebunkport, Maine was a real treat for me because I saw the human side of a president. Those were really good times, good times in Washington. And that's probably because I made a decision early on in my career that I would never work at any organization or with anyone that I didn't respect, enjoy, and that they respected me. What really drew you to that conclusion? I mean, what was it that made you say that was such a key thing to do? I think, you know, when you come from the kind of background I did, people try to define you and they tell you who you are and what you can do and how far you can go. That's kind of a natural thing. Oh, you can't do that because. And so I developed a theme that said, never let anyone else define you. And I did that when I was working at Mills College when the students there would come to my office and sit around on the floor to just chat. And that's when I was a secretary. And they would ask questions like, who are the most important people in your life? And we as women tend to go through a thing where we say, oh, my husband, my children, and we never say ourselves. And I caught myself. And one day I said to them, no, let me start all over again. I'm the most important person in my life because if I want to take care of all of those I care about, I must first take care of me. And I can never let anyone else define who I am or define me. And you should never let anyone else do that as well. That's great. You had a lot of different jobs. And which one area do you think challenged you the most and helped you grow the most as a leader? I think it was my first really professional job at Kaiser aluminum and chemical corporation. I went there as an administrative manager to the senior vice president for planning and control. And he asked me to take a look at the Kaiser Center complex when he was going to Hawaii, he and his family for the holidays. I had only been working for him several months. And when he came back, I shared with him what I thought. This was high-rise real estate development, property management. And I don't know where all of that came from. But when he came back, I told him what I thought. And he said, thank you. And two weeks later, he called me and he said, congratulations, the board of directors has just made you vice president general manager of Kaiser Center Inc. And that was the beginning. And he said, tomorrow morning, you meet with your full staff over there. With David, that was scary. There were eight Caucasian gentlemen who between them had well over 200 years of service. They told me that if you turn them around and pull their drawers down, you found the big case stamped right in the rear. And that was what I was going to have to deal with. And so I thought about, you know, when I look back, you talked about how important it is to give people the credit that they need. And I remember telling them when I met with them, I said, look, any one of you could do this job. But for whatever reason, I've been appointed. I need you to work with me. I need you to try me. And if within a year that hasn't worked for you, I promise you you will get the package you would get if you left today. And they all stayed and the one who had hoped to become the vice president and general manager, a year later came to me and he said, I've really tried this body. You're a great leader. He said, but this is very hard for me. Is that package still available? And I said, absolutely. And so that was the first real professional corporate job that I had that I think prepared me for the presidential appointments that came later and all of the other things. I learned a great deal from my boss that was there. And this is interesting, David. When he told me that I had been appointed to do this, I said, okay. And I never asked another question. And a week later, he came and he said, Bonnie, you've not asked me what your compensation would be. You have not asked me anything about what this means. And I said to him, I know you'll be fair. And so he said, okay, let me tell you what you said. This is what your salary is. These are your stock options, your bonuses. I didn't know what stock options were, David. I didn't know how to do that. And he took a yellow tablet and taught me all the things I needed to know to do that job. That's great. How much, Bonnie, did your leadership approach change with the different responsibilities that you had throughout your career? Different jobs, different places. I think the real thing was I learned that no matter how smart I thought I was, I learned that I was, and we all think we're pretty smart, that I could not do the jobs alone. That without a team that believed in me, that trusted me to do the right thing on their behalf, that I could never have any accomplishments that I dreamed about, you know, as I would look at each job. And the other thing was there was never a job that I felt I couldn't do. So all of the things that I've done through my life, I wasn't trained to do in school. There were things that I just decided, if someone's going to give me a chance, then I must be able to do that because someone believes I can do that. And that has been sort of a foundation of the lack of fear for taking on new challenges. How did you dig into each new job? I mean, how did you go into a new assignment? What advice could you give to people? The first thing I did was to spend time with each of the people who would be reporting to me. I wanted to learn about the organization. I wanted to know how they felt about their job and what kind of things would help make them better as well. And any advice that they had for me, so it was really important not to go in with an attitude that, oh, I know exactly what I'm doing because I've been brought in to lead you guys, but it's I need you to help me to lead. And I need you to tell me what I can do to help you help me. That was important, especially in the government positions in the three presidential appointments. Each time you go in and what happens is there are people there who have been there for years and they have gone through a whole lot of presidential appointees. And so they're going to be there when you leave. And so it was important for me to know what they saw through all the years they had been there and what was missing with each of the presidential appointees who came in to be the leaders and what advice they would give to us. And so I developed teamwork approach and it really did help me learn a great deal. What was your first Board of Directors job, Bonnie? My first Board of Directors job was Niagara Mohawk in upstate New York. I got a call from Search Firm that said that this company was interested in having me serve on their Board of Directors and I have to tell you, David, I really didn't have a great concept or an idea of what a Board of Directors was. I had a little bit of knowledge from Kaiser aluminum, but not enough I hadn't been on the board. So they said, well, the chairman would like to come in and meet with you. So I said, that's fine. So he flew in to meet with me. We met in Washington, Washington National and he walked in and the first thing he said was, well, I wasn't really looking for a woman or an African American, but they tell me you have all the skills and the necessary experience. So I guess that's okay. And that's the way we started that conversation. Well, they were looking for someone that had a background in consumer affairs or environmental affairs. And I had served as President Bush as Special Advisor for Consumer Affairs and then I had taken on a job hitting a nonprofit that was an environmental program for disadvantaged youth that had begun under the Bush administration. So fast forward, I became a member of his board. He had two other women on the board. And so I had the opportunity to work with other women on the board on my very first board. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bonnie in just a moment. As you can clearly tell, Bonnie excels at stepping into tough situations and getting people to listen and understand each other. That's such a vital skill for leaders and it reminds me of a fantastic conversation I had with Major League Baseball Commissioner, Rob Manfred. Now Rob also knows a thing or two about how to find common ground. And I love what he has to say about it when he joined me on the podcast. You have an obligation to go in a room and exchange views in a robust way and try in good faith to find common ground and understand the people that you want to lead and what their needs are. Not just what you need from them, but what they need from you. Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Rob, Episode 91 here on How leaders lead. You know, you're now one of the foremost experts on corporate governance with your experience on boards of many top companies, Home Depot, Hershey's, Albertson, Jim, many others. You know, what made you decide to start your governance and policy consulting company? And what do you hope to achieve with your clients? Well, I'm going to tell you first of all, David, that I'm semi-retired for the most part. I know what semi-retired means for you. But you know, what happened was my second or third board, third board, I believe, was Louisiana Pacific in Portland. And what had happened, you know, as a poorest products company, and I had not been on the board a year when the chairman walked in and told us that the company, all of us, were being indicted by a federal grand jury. And he said, you'll have to form a special committee to deal with that. And he walked out the door. So there were only five outside directors. And each of them looked at me and said, one said, well, I'm a politician. The other one, you know, I'll never forget Chuck Yeager said, I'm a test pilot. And he was a forester. He was very good with forestry. And another one said, I was a treasurer of the US. And another one said, you know, well, I'm this. And they all said, you're a dean of a business school. So you chair this committee. And that's how I got involved with governance. I worked with some of the foremost lawyers in the country and some former justices as well. And I learned the importance of the value that the company develops for shareholders, the importance of honesty in everything that you do, the importance of transparency . And we got through that. We had class action lawsuits and all kinds of things, but I learned so much at that time about governance and about board work that I had never anticipated. And that's how I really got into the governance side. It was experience and it was being in the fire at the time and having to get through it. Can you tell us a story of a company that you really helped with the vice and experience that you picked up? You know, I think that Home Depot was probably the one that most people recall my involvement with and engagement with because there was a period of time that we went through some very tough times. And I learned from the best, as you may recall, Kinland Gown was lead director. And as we were transitioning, Kin and the non governance committee decided that I would be a good person to become the lead director because I was chairing the compensation committee and dealing with shareholders who were very angry during the time that we were having our challenges. And so, Kin coached me a lot. And I learned a lot from him because he's always felt you should be transparent . The shareholders are important and all the employees that are embarrassed by anything that the board or the company does are important. So that was a tremendous experience for me. And it was one where I had to meet with dissident shareholders and with unions and with people who were really upset with Home Depot. And we came out of that because the board was very supportive of the direction that we were taking. And they were right there. They helped. And yes, I had to be out front and sort of take on a lot of the black and some of the leadership things, but you can't do that without a great board and without a great management team. And so that was the beginning. What do you think is the role of the board of directors? The board of directors has to understand, I think, in just about every instance that it is not management. It is oversight. The board is responsible for overseeing the strategic plan. But management does the strategic plan and owns it. And so the board has to work with management to make certain that they agree with and can support that direction in terms of the strategy and then to make certain that they stay the course. You know, we always hear that one of the major jobs of the board is the hiring and firing of the CEO. Yes, that's true. But once you've done that, the board has to recognize that they have selected a leader that is the leader. Support that leader. That's not the right leader. The board then has to make a decision as to how to do that and or how to make a change, if necessary. And most often, because they're responsible for the hiring of the CEO, it's going to be a good relationship that will work well. But the board has to recognize it is the arm of the shareholders. Its obligation is to the shareholders. And its obligation is also to all of those people that work within the companies to help make it the great company that it is. And hopefully it is. And I'm thinking of Yum and many other companies that I've worked with and I think they're all great companies. And again, as I said, I wouldn't serve on the board of a company that I didn't respect if I didn't respect the CEO or the leadership team. You know, each of the companies you've served on, obviously, are different categories. But did you find any commonalities among the best performers? I did, the commonalities that I found were one, the tone at the top. That's always important. What was the tone that was being said at the top? Who is the leader? And is that leader an inspirational leader where people feel that the leader cares about them, cares about the company and understands his or her role as it relates to not just them, but also the shareholders and all stakeholders. I always looked at how the CEO interfaced with the head of human resources or in the Yum case, the chief people officer with the general counsel and with investor relations. You know, those are our key positions, the chief financial officer. That's a team, that's a core team that has to be able to work together and the relationship has to be a good one. And if you find that the CEO discount his general counsel or the chief financial officer then you've got a challenge. And so that's what I always looked for going into a company. How important do you think recognition is, is the value that drive deep in an organization's culture? I think it's key. You know, if people do not feel valued, then they don't do the best when they go to work every day. Many people get up dreading the fact that they do have to go to work because they don't feel that they're valued as an employee or as a member of the team. And that's critical. I mean, I think, you know, you hit on it with, you know, your old great one. And as I read through that, I was talking with my husband, Walter, and I said, you know, here are things that when I look back, you know, that made such a big difference in all of the things I did in my life, I wasn't smart enough to know it's what I was doing. But I was smart enough to know that I couldn't do things on my own that you had to bring people along and that they had to feel valued and you had to recognize that value. And I still have the clacking teeth, David, that you gave me. I gave you that yellow word. That's great. And then Greg Creek came behind you and he gave me another yellow word. So I got clacking teeth off the place and their great awards. And it's critical. It's critical to have a recognition. You know, you've seen many leaders, but what would you say would be the single most important trade of the successful leaders you've seen? What do you think really is that essential? The word that comes to my mind is humility, the ability to listen to others and to engage others and to take advice in. That's a very difficult thing for many leaders because they feel many times that they're leading because they're supposed to know it all. And that's just not the case. So I think you have to have a good sense of who you are, but enough humility to be able to listen to others and recognize that you can always learn. When you stop learning, you cease to grow and you cease to lead. What do you think is the biggest reasons why leaders derail? Erikaans. I mean, I think Erikaans is one of the main things that causes many leaders to derail. I've watched through the years and they wouldn't say they were Erikaans, but it 's this tendency to want to make certain that people know that you know it all. And therefore, many people that could support you and help you no longer do that. People will let you derail and they'll pull back. And someone in many instances have just enough knowledge to be able to say, " Hey, pull your co-tell and say, 'This is happening or this is what's going on in the organization.' And so you need to sort of do a reset, hit the reset button. I know that I'll use the example of Home Depot. The directors were required to visit stores, X number of stores per quarter, to really find out what was going on and then to come back and just to talk in generalities about things that needed to be changed or things that they found, whether it was a dirty store or poor morale or whatever the case. And you know how important that is. It's important to be able to listen and to have enough humility. You know, Bonnie, diversity and inclusion is a real hot topic today. And it's important for every company to really make it a high value. Do you have a unique perspective on why it's so valuable? I don't know that I have a unique perspective, David, but the reason I think it is valuable is sometimes, you know how they say, "No man is an island." And when everyone thinks alike and looks alike, then they just march down a certain road and never look to the left or to right. When you bring in people who have different perspectives, regardless of what those perspectives are, they're different. They represent either your shareholders or your employees or your suppliers. It's really important to have the ability to hear different perspectives. And so in a boardroom, you know, when you're a global company such as YUM, you know, it's important to hear global perspectives. And so you have to include people that bring that different perspectives, the same with your management team, because all of the people that you're serving and those that make the company great, those that buy the products or use the services need to make sure that the company can relate to them in some way. I would say that's important. I recently watched the video in preparation for this podcast, Bonnie, where you received a lifetime achievement award and people recognized your impact. You know, I want you just to react to some of the comments. You know, one you were described as a woman who's generous, has grace and guts. How can you have grace and guts? I have a term, David, that I share with all of those I coach and it is always leave people whole. So it means that you can disagree with people. You can have differences of opinion, but you want to make certain that when you leave the conversation, the person doesn't feel diminished in any way, that they feel that they've been treated with respect and that you have respectfully disagreed with them. And then you work on trying to come together in some way where you can work together. And that might be what they're talking about. Yeah, someone also said that you rejoice when you see someone you mentor, make an achievement and have success. Can you share with us one of your favorite mentoring success stories? Well, yes, a number of them come to mind. There are a number of women who have ended up on boards. But let me tell you one that really makes me feel good. I didn't completely mentor this person, but another woman that I had mentored wanted me to meet her. And so we met and I liked her a great deal. And when I was leaving the board of a case deal, you know, I said, look, guys, there's a person I'd like for you to meet that might be someone you'd like to consider. And I didn't say they knew the new she was female, but I didn't say anything else. I just said, here's the experience that she has. This is her background so forth and so on. And they met her, fell in love with her and said, you didn't tell us she was African American. And I said that wasn't important. What was important was that she had the skill set that you needed, period. And that made me feel so good, David, that I didn't feel a need to say, Oh, here's an African American woman that I want you to meet that you may want to consider because I'm going off the board and I'm African American. Never had to go through any of that. That's great. You know, you're also described on this video, which is very glowing, by the way, you know, that as calm and purposeful in the boardroom, you know, well, how do you know, what do you remain calm, especially in times of conflict? You talk to yourself. What do you mean? Well, you know, I tell myself that when all is said and done, we still have to work together. And so my daughter had a saying, she would say, Mom, you and I can be having a conversation and you're just really easy going and so forth and so on. But then we go into, I ask you advice, you go into a business mode. I thought, okay, I do do that. And I've seen myself do that in the boardroom. But what it is is I want to make certain that I hear what is going on and that I pay close attention as opposed to react. And David, you're very good at that. So you know what that's like. I mean, I have seen you do that, you know, when a lot of people would get angry . The important thing is not to get angry to recognize that everyone has the right to their opinion and then to try to work through the issues on behalf of shareholders and the employees. Another person said that you're so thoughtful in what you say and perceptive about what's going on around you. Do you have any tips on how to develop skills like that? I don't really. I think listening is important. You know, I often joke about the fact that I have at least two of my degrees were in psychology and that you know, you learn to read body language, to watch facial expressions and to make sure that, you know, if you've said something and you can see a reaction from a person that you know that this has affected them, that you'll be able to pull back. Even a lay person, you know, can pull back and listen and then, you know, take time to respond. Sometimes, and I've been guilty of this, speaking too soon when you haven't heard what people need to say. And then the other thing is allowing other people to weigh in and have an opinion before, you know, coming forth, you know, with your own, especially if you're in a position of leadership and they're looking to you to do that. So I try to listen to make certain that I've heard a number of different perspectives before suggesting that there are things that people may want to consider. And that's hard sometimes because I'm a Scorpio and I react quickly most of the time. So I have to. That's why we get along. I'm a Scorpio either love each other or hate each other. That's right. And my husband's a Scorpio David. So that tells you we have some fun times here at home. Because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 or $1,000 or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you and it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to howleaderslead.com and start my leadership class. It's really and truly free. And after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role and you'll be on your way to getting big things done with your team. Go check it out at howleaderslead.com. We both have the same birthday, October 30th. What characteristic do you love about the Scorpio that you're glad you have? We never stop until we have the answer we need. We'll do the deepest dive necessary to get to the answer. Well you were on my board and I can tell you you certainly lived up to that Scorpio trade. My trade is believe me. If somebody crosses me, I never ever forget it. Well David, I have learned to forgive. I read a book that said, "Forgiving what you can't forget." Well, I might forget it. I might forgive somebody but I'm not sure. You're not going to forget it. That's right. I don't forget either. What are your most challenging days in the past couple of years and what did you learn from it? In the past couple of years, I've been serving on several different boards but only one public company board and it really makes a difference to me to try to pull back and let others lead because I tend to be kind of like a bulldog. I jump out in front and I take charge and I'm learning how not to do that. How have you learned to get better and better speaking and learning? How do you get better and better at showing up as a leader? What's continuous improvement look like for Bonnie Hill? Continuous improvement for me is staying current with leadership practices, listening to others, reading a lot of books, tuning in on occasion to how leaders lead and watching different people that you interview, talk about their leadership skills. I think learning really is a constant process and when we cease to learn, we cease to live. Bonnie, this has been a lot of fun and I'd like to have a little bit more fun with the lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? I don't know. I'm older now, David. I don't know. No, you're not. You're better. What are three words others would use to describe you? Humility learned. You know what I mean by that and probably bullish. If you could be someone beside yourself for a day, who would it be and why? I have no one else that I'd rather be than me and because I'm living my best life now and I've had great experiences and I have great children and great grandchildren and a great life, there's no one else I'd rather be. What's your biggest pet peeve? Is when people don't put things back where they belong in the house or wherever I go. If I go to someone else's home and things are out of place and it looks like somebody sat something down where it shouldn't have been, I have to talk to myself to keep from stepping in and doing it. So my pet peeve is disorder. You've worked with presidents of the United States. What's something about being president of the United States that most people wouldn't know? That they are human beings the same as we are and that David, they put their pants on or they're skirt on the same way we do and I've had an opportunity to be around one of the presidents who was busy still in stake off of my plate. Because he wasn't allowed to eat steak and we had to have lobster. Just knowing that they too are just like us was really a good thing. Who was that president that was robbing your plate? That was George H.W. Bush, the elder Bush at his home in Kennebunkport. If you turn on the radio in your car, what would we hear? You would hear spa music. What's something about you a few people would know? Maybe few people would know that I did a lie goal. Okay, that's the end of the lightning round and just a few more questions will wrap this up. You mentioned him just a second ago. What's something about leadership you learned from president H.W. Bush? I learned humility from him and I learned to write personal notes from him. He always wrote personal notes and sent you little cards and notes. You did that also, David. There's a similarity there but that was one of the things I learned from him. There's nothing like a personal handwritten note. What's something about leadership you learned from president Reagan? Trust but verify. That's a good one. As you look ahead, what's your unfinished business? I have no unfinished business, David. If I left this world today, I would feel that I've lived a good life. I've accomplished more than I ever thought I could and that my children, thank goodness, will carry on the legacy. That is fantastic. I just wish everybody could say that. What are three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders? I would suggest that whenever they go into a situation, any situation, interview, job interview, discussion group, that they do their homework before going into the situation. If they're meeting with someone, there's no excuse not to know who you're meeting with and why you're meeting with them. Be knowledgeable. Be prepared. The other thing is to be open, be prepared to listen and to have an objective when you listen that if you're going to ask questions, make certain that you have listened, that you've gained enough information that you believe you know what it is you want from a particular meeting and then ask questions. Do not be afraid to ask questions. Even sometimes what might seem to be a dumb question. One of my mentors, my first one at Kaiser Center, he told me, "I'm going to ask you me that one of the things I want you to do is never be afraid to ask what you consider to be the dumb question." And he said, "I know that women and African Americans tend to think that if they ask a question that seems to be a dumb when people look down on them," he said, "Don 't fall into that trap." And so it's very important not to fall into the trap of not wanting to ask the question that you need information from. And he told me and I've passed it on, never sit in a room in a meeting without knowing what's going on, ask the questions. And then I got another piece of advice from my friend, Katherine Downing, who was president and publisher of the LA Times. And she caught me one time because I always wanted to sort of back up and make sure people didn't think that I thought I knew it all. And so I'd start a question with something like, "This is probably all wet or this probably doesn't make good sense, but I'm wondering what." And she pulled me aside one time and she said, "Never discount yourself. Never discount the question that you're going to ask or the information that you're going to share because then you set people up to expect to discount you anyway." And I passed that piece of advice on as well. So you asked me for three and I've given you maybe half a dozen. They're all good. They're all good. I have to say in my career, I've had the great pleasure of meeting many inspirational people, people who've accomplished more than you could ever imagine. But I've never met anybody more inspirational than you. What you've done with your life, how you've grown as a person, how you basically lifted yourself up from the most difficult circumstance and just made yourself into one of the great leaders that I've ever worked with is truly amazing. So I want to thank you for that and thank you for being that inspiration and thank you for being on this podcast. I really appreciate it. Thank you, David. Well, I got to say, Bonnie exemplifies something I see a lot in great leaders. It's this. They're confident in their own skills and the value they offer. And at the same time, they're also incredibly humble, always listening and eager to learn. And if you ask me, having the ability to do both comes down to respect. You've got to respect your own value and worth. Like Bonnie says, not let anyone else define you. And at the same time, you've got to respect those around you by truly listening to them and working together even when you disagree. That's exactly how you take people with you. So as you go through the week, pay attention to how respect influences how you work and lead. Ask yourself, how well do you value and respect your own contributions and skills? How could you show your team more respect? How can you help the people around you respect each other? When you tune into the powerful role that respect plays in the life of a leader , you'll find all kinds of opportunities to grow and excel. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders set a tone of respect. Coming up next on how leaders lead is none other than the professional golfer Justin Thomas, the winner of last year's PGA Championship. And this conversation is perfectly timed because guess what? Next week is a 2023 PGA Championship. So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Howly to the end. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]