David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Cathy Engelbert, the first commissioner of the WNBA. She's an absolute Trailblazer, having also served as the first ever female CEO of Deloitte. But the WNBA is a whole new challenge. And she's using her players first philosophy to take women's sports to the next level. I mean, there's no doubt, Cathy knows how to get big things done. And as you'll hear, it's often the small things that matter more than we would ever think to realize, oh, and you won't want to miss the story of the incredible two hour conversation Kathy got to have with the late Kobe Bryant. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Kathy engelberg. Kathy, thanks so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Cathy Engelbert 1:16 

David, it's great to be here today.

David Novak 1:18 

You know, Kathy, I can't wait to get your dear amazing business career. But first, I understand you have a lot of basketball in your DNA. Can you tell us about that?

Cathy Engelbert 1:28 

Yeah, so I grew up in a family of eight kids with five brothers but my father was actually drafted into the NBA for at the time the Fort Wayne Pistons but Detroit Pistons in 1957 So he was very accomplished college basketball player under Dr. Jack Ramsay, you know, who went on to be a Naismith Hall of Famer and NBA champion with Portland and so yeah, a little DNA with my father was six six and then wait, there was eight of us and my three older brothers and I was always thrown in the backyard on lots of sports and certainly basketball we had like a little makeshift, you know, wooden backboard that was always decrepit, but somehow we were out there playing all the time. So and then I went on to play at Division One level four now Naismith Hall of Fame coach Muffet McGraw, who just retired from Notre Dame, but I played with her and her first head coaching job at little Lehigh University. But you know, very, was such a great upbringing for me to be part of a sports family,

David Novak 2:26 

five brothers now, and a family of eight. You know, what was it like to have those five brothers? I know, they taught you a lot about sports, and you got to compete. But what was that like?

Cathy Engelbert 2:36 

Yeah, it was competitive. We played everything. And I had three older three of them were older and I we were all in line year apart from each other. And I was always there forth in the backyard playing wiffle ball and street hockey, they would put me in goal and, and certainly basketball and soccer and every sport you can imagine. So it was a very competitive upbringing, lots of sibling rivalry. We competed for everything from cereal to the parents time, you know, to everything. So it was really a fun upbringing. But you know, hard because my father had to work three jobs. My mom didn't have the opportunity to go to college and in the 50s. And so, you know, she stayed at home, although she worked for a doctor's office and actually just retired after 62 years. Wow. Yeah, and my father unfortunately passed away when I was quite young. I had just graduated from college. And, and so, you know, I was kind of the oldest one home when he died and had a younger brother, who was only 1213. So, so yeah, you know, but my father worked these three jobs to put all eight of us through college. And, you know, he didn't get to be here to see the eighth. But yeah,

David Novak 3:47 

how do you think that humble, background beginning has really shaped you as a leader?

Cathy Engelbert 3:55 

Yeah, there's no doubt it shaped me to be competitive, for sure. It shaped me to be collegial. And, you know, literally, we had to do everything together, we had to work together, we all did chores, you know, we had our assigned chores, we and so we had to work together. And I think it really, you know, I didn't think of it until I became the CEO of Deloitte. But you know, those early days in your life really shape your leadership style and then having played three sports in high school, two in college, she you know, shaped it even further because you started to become a leader on the court or the field and I also played lacrosse in college and, and you know, I think, you know, that upbringing with a lot of siblings and always something to do and before technology and the internet were invented, you know, really set me on on a path of enjoying a very male dominated world that I joined in 1986 when I graduated in the accounting and consulting profession, and I think it just took off from there as far as you know, being net taking that competitor attitude, but also knowing that my mom used to say this to me, she say, Kathy, you're gonna do fine I mean, because you know, you're entering a male dominated world, but you're growing up with five of them. So you're going to do just that confidence.

David Novak 5:08 

You mentioned you played a couple of sports at Lehigh in, you did not only play you were you're the captain of both the lacrosse and the basketball team. What did you learn about leadership? You know, by being the captain of the team, what did that teach you? Can you tell us a story?

Cathy Engelbert 5:25 

Yeah, so first when I first got to Lehigh was a walk on for the basketball team. I actually was recruited for lacrosse. So I walked onto the basketball team my freshman year and, and by sophomore year was the starting point guard and a point guard is it's very interesting if you go back and study positioning and sports too, and, and captains and how many times they're not the high score, and I wasn't but I you know, I reveled in an assist and, and a great pass or a good look. And, and, and so you know, that I learned to be find my place on the team to lead the team, and to feed the stars because I knew I wasn't necessarily the fastest player. I wasn't the biggest player, but I could use the talents of everyone around me. And that is such a great lesson for leaders today is the leader can't be everything a CEO can't be everything. But you have to surround yourself with the best talent that brings that team together and works at a team and recognizes as a team. So that's definitely what I learned on the court and field at Lehigh, no doubt about it. And being a captain, quite frankly, my senior year.

David Novak 6:28 

That's great. You know, and you mentioned that you played for Hall of Fame coach, Muffet McGraw. What did she teach you about coaching and how to do it really well?

Cathy Engelbert 6:39 

Well, Martha was very, is very competitive. She's very focused. This was her first head coaching job. And I think Lehigh had like four or five wins when she came before the year before she came. And she came in my freshman year, she didn't recruit any of us, because she kind of got named in August. And that's when we started. But she definitely turned us around, we were 24. And for my senior year, you know, really had a lot of success. So she taught us like, you know, you can come from a program that was a bit in shambles, and you know, with hard work and dedication and focus, and she was a competitor, and she hated to lose, and you didn't want to disappoint her. So you wanted to really, she was definitely someone you want to follow at the time, and you wanted to, you know, succeed for her because she put her whole heart and soul into it. And I think she continued that when she left Lehigh at Notre Dame and led them to two national championships.

David Novak 7:33 

What you mentioned, you didn't want to disappoint her, you know, what is it about a leader? What's a leader have to do so that their people really feel that way about them? Yeah, and I

Cathy Engelbert 7:44 

think you know, David, you know, better than anyone you know, leading is about setting the vision, and empowering your people to execute. And I think that's what it was all about, like, her vision was, we were going to win, we were going to win our conference, we were going to get an NCAA tournament bid. And she set that vision and I'm not sure I would have framed it that way back when I was 1819 20 years old. But today, it's like, Okay, now we all want to get that done, we want to succeed because she set that vision in us. And then she prepared us. And and she used to say, I used to love this, she used to say, you know, like, the game is won in practice, you know, practice as hard as you play in a game. And that's another thing in business. Yeah, the game is not one, like when one thing is on the line, it's one and all the preparation leading up to closing a big deal or driving a big new revenue stream. And so those are kind of the lessons I now think again, I would never framed them back when I was 20 years old. But I definitely think that led to some of my kind of leadership later on in life.

David Novak 8:45 

When you think about it, Kathy, what's what's a one on one coaching session like with you?

Cathy Engelbert 8:52 

Um, well, first, I'm a driver, for sure. So, you know, I think because of my long business career, I joined sports, and I don't think they're used to someone who wants to come in and really transform and develop them in their career and, and give them you know, I know you preach a lot about recognition and recognize them because I was at the point like, I don't need the recognition. I've already had my successful career. I want you all to grow and develop and get to the next level in your career. So a lot of mine is career development. And some lot of times people will say to me, it's the first time I've had like a conversation like this. And I think that's something that's important, I think, for leaders today, especially during this pandemic. And you know, with no one on one ability live, you have to find ways to develop your people that are different than it was before this pandemic.

David Novak 9:40 

Yeah, I want to get to your business career and you know what you're doing now, you go from being the first female CEO of Deloitte, which is one of the you know, the big four accounting firms and the top professional services firm in the world. You go from doing that to being the commissioner of the NBA. What learnings did you get In that role is the CEO of Deloitte that's really coming in handy now.

Cathy Engelbert 10:06 

Well, first, everyone says, Why would you go from that long business career to Commissioner of the WNBA? And

David Novak 10:11 

I'm gonna ask you that.

Cathy Engelbert 10:12 

Okay. All right. And so I learned, I mean, there are so many lessons I learned at Deloitte. You know, I learned about, you know, I had this great front row seat into so many industries. David, I served the SNL during the SNL credit savings and loans during the SNL crisis of the late 80s. I served some tech companies during the.com bubble, then there was Enron, and that's through the profession, I was in a crisis. And we became regulated. And that certainly changed the profession forever. And then the financial crisis of Oh, seven and Oh, eight. So I mean, think about, you know, all of those things, which I know you dealt with in your career, too. And every time one of those things happen, I raised my hand, and I said, I want to do something different, I want to take advantage of an opportunity, I want to help the firm thrive during this very difficult time. And, and so, you know, when I came to the WNBA, I mean, this is a multi dimensional transformation, I'm hoping ultimately to raise all of women's sports, not just the WNBA. But you know, and thank goodness that, you know, I came in, and I had that business background, because on day four of when I came in, they threw me in a meeting to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement, because the players weren't happy. And they had opted out of the prior collective bargaining agreement. And that was on day four. So I didn't know anybody, I walked into a room and everyone thinks sports is so different. But sports is big business and big business, about relationships, and four days in, I didn't get to build relationships. So I started to build relationships over that summer, knowing that once the season was over in October, we're summer sport in the WNBA, from May to October when we proudly champion so we knew when we got to November, December, I knew like, I'm really gonna have to build some relationships here, if we have any shot, to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement that the players will be proud of that we can afford. And, and that's progressive, and that, you know, we'll set the women's sports on a different, you know, on a different trajectory, because I was hired by Adam Silver, the Commissioner of the NBA, to change the narrative around women's sports in the WNBA. And to look at different revenue models. So thank goodness I had, I was so blessed to have the career at Deloitte, that position me to come in and say the first thing I did is okay, what is our strategy, and they're looking at me kind of funny. And I said, Well, we've got three pillars, player first, new revenue models, and fan experience fan engagement, I said, you know, and I knew nothing about sports coming in, other than I was a huge fan, and I played, but nothing about the business of sports. And I said, those are three pillars. So over the summer into the fall, that's what we did. And I also learned something really important mentally, which was when I became the CEO, I actually met with a prominent female CEO had been a CEO for a decade or two. And, and she had reached out to me, she said, I'd love to catch up with you. She's She was on the board of one of my one of my clients. And she said, the first thing you need to do Kathy is you need to do some small things of symbolic value to build trust. Because then the harder things you have to get done, like culture change, because I was telling her some of the things we had to get done, and that had been kicked out a download can have been kicked down the road. And I really need to get on this. She said, not a don't get on that right away. Small things that symbolic value. So we created these, what we call bureaucracy busters and some things that were really aggravating our partners, and we had 3000 partners who had 4000 opinions and and so we've created these things to make their life easier that were small, they were small, little incremental things. But they said, Oh, okay, Kathy gets us, she and I built some trust there. And then when we had to get the harder things done, and change the culture a bit, you know, that was actually easier to get done, because we had built that trust. So I learned that so I come into the WNBA go into that meeting four days in, I'm like, the players don't trust us. So. So we did some small things a symbolic value through the fall of that year, the fall of 19. And then the players were like, Oh, I actually saw one of them quoted, like, Kathy gets us. And you know, it was a very small thing I did. But you know, and that led to, again, a successful negotiation around collective bargaining and then led to the pandemic kits, and now they don't, can we actually get a season done? And so again, those little small things came in hand,

David Novak 14:26 

give us an example of one of those small things.

Cathy Engelbert 14:28 

So for instance, in the WNBA, you know, they fly they don't fly charter like the men's leagues do. Yet, we had a playoff game, where the two teams in the playoffs had to fly, you know, west to east with virtually no days rest. They were gonna have to take red eyes, they're gonna have to play that night. And so I basically approved a charter flight for them doesn't sound like a huge thing was a big deal to those players because they said, Cathy gets it. She's about our health and safety. You know, this would have been Tara double prime, I did it because one, like I said, the product on the courts not going to be good these, these players are the best at their craft in the world, but they're going to work on virtually no sleep. And so I wanted a great product on the court, which they usually deliver. But I wasn't positive. And this was the semifinals of our playoff. So. So that was something little that I did. You know, that build trust

David Novak 15:22 

makes a lot of sense, you know, and I can see why that builds trust, you know, and when you were at Deloitte, I understand that over 97% of your team members gave you a positive rating in your your employee survey. How do you become such a popular leader like you are and make the tough decision? Yeah, David,

Cathy Engelbert 15:45 

it's a great question. Because there is a balance here. Because a lot of times, you've got to make decisions that aren't popular, and especially when you have people who you know, are, you know, looking to get to the next level, and they're all looking to, you know, climb the ladder. But I think for me, I got in the role, I think at the time, we had 68,000 professionals, and we were growing, we ultimately grew to about a little over 100,000, when I was done my term. And I said, like, like, we're about our reputation. And we're about people and every day 60,000 or 100,000, people go to work with the Deloitte brand, and I have to run a people first agenda. So again, looking for some small things of symbolic value, like, if you're 22 years are average. Yeah. And also the deletes average at the time was like 2627 years old. So a very young workforce, millennial, now digital natives, native workforce. And so I said, you know, we've got to look at the lifecycle of an employee, and actually, my head of talent put together one slide, and he showed, like, if you're 22 years old, you're looking for a fitness subsidy, or maybe student loan consolidation, when you're 32, maybe you're looking for parental leave, when you're 52, maybe you're more interested in the retirement benefits. So we put on one page, the lifecycle of an employee, so whether you were 2230, to 52, or and envisioning yourself still with the firm as that it was all on one page. And this is how you could look at what the career at Deloitte was offering you. So I think it was part of that and communication, of course, recognition, making sure people felt recognized, because when you're such a big firm, you've got to try to make it feel small. And, and that's hard to do when you're 100,000 strong, and it was impressive, but you know, and again, it was never about me and one person I had great team around me a great leadership, I changed out some leadership when I came into the role, which you know, every leader says I should have done it sooner. And I agree with that. But you know, we got the right leaders and the right vision and our employees, I think, you know, when we did our survey, we did pulse surveys, our annual survey, and, you know, I know what you were reading from some external survey, so it's nice to have that recognition. But for me, it was all about a people first agenda and every decision we made, let's go back, is it a people first decision,

David Novak 18:04 

you go from Deloitte to the WNBA? So I'll ask you the question. Now, why in the world, would you take on a job like this?

Cathy Engelbert 18:12 

Well, after 33 years, I've been I was definitely, definitely looking for something different. You know, I had I had gotten this front seat and so many industries and seeing so much. And, you know, I said, you know, I literally I had a friend, and he was a partner at Deloitte, he had left to go over to the NBA, and never thought and I joked with him when he left, and I was the CEO when he called me and I was upset that he left because he was a friend. And he said he was becoming the vice president of whatever at the NBA and I go, That sounds pretty cool knowing my dad had been drafted in the 50. So So I said, I want to come work for you someday. Ha, ha, ha. So my terms coming to an end, about six months left, and he calls me and says, I have the perfect second act for you, Kathy, the WNBA. Commissioner, and I'm like, No, literally, I'm not kidding you. He called me once a month for the next four months, and said kept saying the same thing. And then finally, he said it was March and my term was ending June one. And he said, you know, Kathy, like 30 minutes, just literally the NBA was two blocks away from where I worked in Manhattan in the 30 rock. So it was two blocks away. He said, Come over for 30 minutes and meet with Adam Silver, the Commissioner of the NBA, and Mark Tatum, who was the Deputy Commissioner, and just 30 minutes, that's all I ask. And so I did and you know, and I kind of said, well, I did want something different. I wanted something with a broader women's leadership platform and something I had a passion for. Never think that would take me to sports. I actually thought I'd end up I had served the life sciences pharmaceutical industry. I thought maybe I'd become a college president. I thought a not for profit leader. And this came up and given my dad's connection and just you know, being from, you know, big family of sports fans. This seemed like the right and I knew it was a big transformation and it will continue to be and And, and I said, I'm going to take this role and a lot of people who knew me well said, This totally makes sense. Because if you walked into my office, I used to have basketballs and back of a sign by Coach K. And Allen Iverson, because I was a Sixers fan. And, and, and then, you know, but people who didn't know me were like, really? Like, why don't you take another corporate job. But, you know, again, it totally met those three criteria I set forth for myself for for my next role, and I never thought we'd run into a pandemic, I'd never thought there'd be a racial justice crisis in my first full year. But you know, I couldn't be more happy with the decision to make an impact on you know, women's sports in the WNBA.

David Novak 20:43 

Outstanding, and you're actually as I understand the first person to be named Commissioner, versus president of the WNBA. Was this something that you asked for? Did you say, you know, Adam, I'm in I'm gonna come into this job. And, you know, I, I want to be a commissioner, I want to have the same level as you have.

Cathy Engelbert 21:03 

No, Adam called me after we had already talked a few times. And Adam said, By the way, I'm going to make you a commissioner. He said, major sports leagues have commissioners, and the WNBA is a major sports league, and you're going to be a commissioner. And I, of course, was like, Adam, I'm totally not into titles. You don't need to do this. For me. I had already said yes, by the way, so I had no leverage at that point. But no, he and he was, he was, you know, really thoughtful about it. And I, my reaction to him was, you know, Adam, this is, you know, I think given the societal conversation about women and equality, you know, and this was a couple years ago now, I said, I think this is really smart, but don't do it for me. And he said, Nope, this is, and it does. And he wanted a seat at the table for someone else, to be called commissioner in his ecosystem, I think, and it was, you know, it's a responsibility for sure. Because I have gotten that seat at the table, I'll never forget my first week of the job, I was on a panel with Adam and the commissioner of MLS, Don Garber, and another Commissioner, and I'm like, Oh, this is what I do, man, I'm gonna be sitting here, you know, weighing in on the evolution of women's sports and the impacts that women's sports are having. And that's essentially a seed I've gotten. That's

David Novak 22:16 

great. You know, and Adam is a guy who is highly reputed for being a phenomenal leader, and he's done a great job with the NBA. You know, what, what would be the top thing you think you've picked up from him?

Cathy Engelbert 22:27 

Well, and I get to sit on the senior leadership team of the NBA, and that's a that's been a great, you know, especially through this crisis. And, and he's just, you know, really, really thoughtful guy, cerebral, a great leader. He's got, he senses things really quickly. And so, you know, I'm just kind of enjoying learning about the inner workings of, you know, a major men's professional league and women's through his eyes, and through his leadership, which is nice, because after you've been the CEO, I'll never forget my first day on the job at the WNBA. I said, Adam, you know, I was a partner at Deloitte since 1998. And so I really haven't went to make partner, you don't really have a boss. And I said, so how is this going to work? And he said, Kathy, I'm a Commissioner, you're a commissioner, I'm not your boss, if you need me, you need to run things by me. I'm empowering. You go. I mean, he literally said, Go, you know, and I always appreciated that. And that's leadership right there. Because he trusted me, he knew my background, and trusted that I could come transform this organization.

David Novak 23:29 

And I'm sure that trust is makes you not want to let him down too. And I think that's kind of, and one of your, as you mentioned, one of your first big challenges, and it ended up being a big accomplishment is gaining this collective bargaining agreement, which solved a huge problem for the league. Tell us, you know, it's like to get in the head of a leader, you know, tell us, tell us how you went about making this deal happen?

Cathy Engelbert 23:54 

Gosh, you know, I'd never thought like someone said, oh, you know, you're gonna have to negotiate a new collective bargaining agreement, but I had never dealt with a union workforce. I had worked on clients who had union workforces in the automobile industry and others, but I had never directly dealt with it. So and, you know, it's not like these women are all that replaceable. They're the best professional basketball players at their craft in the world. So so it that's what was a little unusual. And I sent because they opted out of the prior deal two years early, which they had the right to. I sense, there was a trust thing. So we just again, went about that summer, I did a 12 city tour in each city, I met with the everybody in the ecosystem, the fans, the players, the media, which is an interesting constituent that I really didn't have before that I have now every day. You know, the management of the teams, the GMs, the head coaches, the team presidents the whole the whole management of it all arena personnel so so meeting with the players in each market in some ways, I would speak to them in the locker room or at center court during their shoot around and thank goodness I play The game because I always started with that. And in fact, some Notre Dame players I played for Muffet McGraw. And you need a little cred, you know, with these players, you know, because they're young. And you know, I, when I came into the league, I said, like, what's the average tenure of a WNBA? Player? And they said, eight years, and I said, and they're all college graduates are super smart. And I said, okay, they're 30, on average. Now, what do they do for the next 30 years? So part of what I wanted to do, too, when I talked to them about is I want to help you with your post playing career. Some of them want to be broadcasters and already are like Candice Parker, and Rebecca Lobo, who retired years ago, some and you know, at least Leslie and others, some of them want to be, you know, social justice, you know, change agents, like my Amour took, it had taken a year off when I first came into the league. And so that was part of it. So it was building that trust along the way. And then it was, these are, and this is what I learned from Deloitte, I took the people first agenda over to the WNBA into a player first agenda. And now it's like everything we're going to do, we're going to think about the players. These are working women, they're moms, they're entrepreneurs. Some of them have their own businesses, a lot of them have to go play overseas in the offseason. And so how can we make their life easier, so it wasn't just about pay, even though we tripled the top pay the pay for the top players, but it was also about other benefits. You know, Mom benefits, fertility benefits, maternity leave, just being as progressive as we possibly could with, of course, the owners commitment because the owners pay the players. And the owners were all in I couldn't be more thrilled, that was a constituent group, you know, kind of having 12 different ownership groups that I had to start building relationships with quickly, because they were on the other side of the table set. Technically, I was representing them on the other side of the table with the player. So we just chipped away at a lot of different things and tried to put a package together that the players would be proud of, because the one thing I knew we needed, the players had to be behind this. And we couldn't have them start playing with a chip on their shoulder that we didn't come all out with a holistic benefit package. And we did and we bargained hard. And we were up a lot of nights in December into January. And then last January, you know, finally came to terms and announced it together. On there. Forget on Good Morning America together with the players.

David Novak 27:27 

Yeah, that's great. I remember seeing that, by the way. And, you know, I understand that the the head of the players union, Terry Jackson wanted to interview you, before you actually got the job. How do you feel about that? And what do you think about this, you know, in terms of being interviewed by someone from the union, before you get Yeah,

Cathy Engelbert 27:47 

again, it was all a whirlwind, because I was interviewing with a bunch of different constituents I interviewed with, I think it was three owners who, you know, have different WNBA teams, and Terry, who is the Executive Director of the Union. And so I think it was important that Adam offer that to Terry, because I'm not sure it was always offered in the past that there was transparency around a candidate because they had gone without a commissioner from October. And I didn't start till July. And I was interviewing, basically, April, May, that they had gone quite a while with an interim interim president at the time. And so it was important, especially knowing that we had a collective bargaining agreement. But I must say, what I left her office, you know, I was kind of like, oh, this is going to be very interesting, because this is going to be a big deal when I start and I also have to transform the revenue model and work on the fan experience in our digital platform. And, yeah, I have to build trust with Terry and the player. So NECA Guma, Kay is actually the president of the Players Association. She's a player star player for the Los Angeles sparks and she was fabulous throughout and she, you know, was really good to talk with and negotiate with and, and, you know, the rest of the players, they have their own executive committee. So I learned a lot again, about building relationships with the, with the players and, you know, NECA went to Stanford, she's super, super smart, super impressive, and a great player too. So she was a big part of that negotiation as well.

David Novak 29:21 

Do you have any tricks up your sleeve in terms of how to really build relationships like that? Because you've mentioned the word relationships quite a few times.

Cathy Engelbert 29:31 

Yeah, I think it's so important this is David is one of the reasons I started playing golf because I said I need to find a way in this, you know, very male dominated world to build relationships with business leaders. And so you have to find things either you have in common with the person you want to build a relationship with, or find the things that you know, the small things that I've been talking about that you know, are gonna resonate with them or like listening. I mean, if he asked me the number one thing that I did In the firt, my first nine months, I just listened. You know, and I would give my vision, but I listened. And then I was really curious about why something was bothering a player or why something was bothering a head coach or GM? And how could I actually come back and make change an impact. And, you know, I always had to balance that because again, as you said, like sometimes some of the decisions you make don't make you popular, like last summer in our bubble, I was not popular because I was really strict about adhering to all the health and safety protocols. And I was unpopular, but that was okay. Because guess what we got through a successful season, which was pretty existential for us. So you know, and so maybe one of the other things was, you know, using my scenario planning kind of background from Deloitte, when we, when we face this crisis, I mean, that was such an important part of leading this league, you know, because to be out of the sports landscape for 20 months, which is what it would have been, would have been existential for our league, and I'm not sure we would have recovered, I think it would have impacted women's sports more broadly. And so you know, really to do, you know, we only had like 30, to 60 days to do it, and try to figure out whether we could put on a season and again, so building those relationships with the players through the collective bargaining, and then, you know, coming into this crisis, and then really having listening to them and what their fears were because they had a lot of fears about playing in the middle of a pandemic. And then when the George Floyd Mern happened, they had a lot of fears about the were a league, very diverse League of 80% women of color. So they had fears about the racial justice situation, the US and basketball didn't seem so important to them anymore. So it was those relationships I built. And then kind of dealing with these these crises and, and letting the player see that I was listening to them. And I was curious about why things were impacting them that maybe I didn't see

David Novak 31:56 

what a scenario you had to lead in. It's amazing of the confluence of all these things that have come together here. Yeah. And you know, at the same time, you mentioned you needed to transform the W NBA business model, the revenue model, which a lot of people would tell you, it's pretty tough shape, you know, how do you see it?

Cathy Engelbert 32:17 

Yeah. So when I came in, I said, my first thing was, I see the problem. It's three words, marketing, marketing. And, you know, when when I came in the league, someone threw a statistic at me that said, you know, less than 4% of all media coverage of sports is women's sports. So, wow, like, and then I asked what's, you know, being a CPA? Like, what's the denominator, the denominator is huge, because the Ben sports numbers are huge. And then less 1% 1% of all corporate sponsorship dollars, go to women's sports. So, so I said, Yeah, you know, if we could just take that up, you know, a couple basis points, this would be a huge success. So this is what we're embarking on. So I took those three pillars. And I said, How do we drive new revenue models, we're standing up a special competition called Commissioner's Cup this year, a new asset that we can look for sponsors immediate deals on. And it's really hard, but I will tell you the one thing I've learned and thank goodness, I had a specialization at Deloitte, around derivative financial instruments and complex valuations. I spent, you know, four years in that practice. And I'm thankful that I did because now I'm, like, you know, telling people, can I see the valuation model for a patch on the uniform a placement on the court or the valuation of a WNBA franchise? Because I know it's flawed, I see that it's flawed. And there should be, you know, some lessons here from every all the work being done on the sustainability and all of that, that, you know, it's not always quantitative measures, there's a lot of qualitative measures that should be put into a women's sports model. So it's not just the traditional eyes on the game kind of thing. So we're working very hard on transforming that transforming our digital platform, our fan engagement platform. So this is not easy. It's much harder than I actually imagined when I came in. But this was the challenge I took on this is a challenge. I'm going to finish in this evaluation model issue I see as the core because we can do the greatest job at the WNBA. And we need to build more household names. We need to build rivalries. I mean, look at the NBA David 40 years in their finals, we're on tape delay, and we're only embarking on our 25th season this year. So 40 years in and you know what happened? A big rivalry got born out of college and was called Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. And everyone wanted to watch them arrival rate two great players. And then Michael Jordan comes along. And then Nike comes along with Michael Jordan. And that's the household global name. And then you had Kobe and Shaq and now LeBron and Steph so, so I've studied a lot of that I studied other sports. You know, we're a diverse sport. We're very culturally relevant. And I think there's a lot of momentum around women's sports. I mean, there's data out there and you read to consumer business that, you know, 80% of every consumer purchasing decision in a household is made by a woman and we skew more women fans, we skew more diverse and younger fans. And also 84% of people surveyed said they liked to watch women's sports. But where are they? Why aren't we pulling them in. And so you know, that's, that's going to be a big part of the transformation in my job to build household names, have some rivalries, we're entering our 25th season, the only professional women's sports league in the US to reach 25 years. So I'm very proud of that. But we have to capitalize on the momentum, our usap women's national team in basketball is going for their seventh consecutive gold medal in Tokyo this summer. And nobody knows about it. Why is that? Why isn't NBC and others, you know, really, really driving? You know, because this would be called the greatest dynasty ever. If this was the men's team, we're going for their seventh consecutive gold medal, which will break a record. So you know, we're working on it. It is like pushing a big boulder up the hill, but we're making progress. And you know, and the level of play on the court, the quality on the court is great. It's the ecosystem around it that needs no playing

David Novak 36:11 

is unbelievable. I mean, the you know, the athleticism is amazing. And obviously, the movement, you know, towards diversity is really taking hold. How is this helping the league?

Cathy Engelbert 36:25 

Yeah, I mean, I think what happened last summer with how our players first of all, I didn't know this when I came into Lee, but the WNBA players have always had strong social justice platforms, you know, but it really was apparent this year. So this past year, so when they stepped up after the George George Floyd murder, and then the Jacob Blake situation, and you know, a few players opted out to focus on their social justice platforms, and really, really move the needle and they're actually impactful, making change in their community. So and then we kind of got thrown into the middle of a political, you know, campaign, and the players stood for their values. And I'm so proud of them around that. So as we think about, like, not many people knew much about the WNBA. And I think last summer, now millions know at least what they stand for. And again, they're working professional women, just like the working women at Deloitte, or, you know, at Yum, and they're, they want to be role models, they want to be viewed as leading in their, in their communities, and they just are so significant to the conversation today. And so they're definitely being sought out. I hope that brands see the value of these diverse players and continue to step up and sponsor them, we are seeing certainly an uptick in that area. But we need more sponsors, more media deals, more evaluation that favors, you know, the, again, some of this diversity, equity and inclusion, as you know, is is qualitative. It's not all quantitative. So you can stick it in algorithm and spit out a value that says now a franchises value x more or a patch on the uniforms value. And so we're working on that. But I think the role models that these players have become will elevate them in kind of the conversation around sports.

David Novak 38:18 

You know, you mentioned the political landscape. And I know Kelly Laufer, She's the former senator of Georgia, she was the owner of the Atlanta Dream, and she was highly critical of of the league support for the Black Lives Matter. And she recently sold her interest in the team. How did you how did you handle that criticism? You know, what stance did you take?

Cathy Engelbert 38:40 

Well, first, I understand a little bit of that politics from my prior life where, you know, we had a whole kind of Government Relations. And I've, you know, sat on boards where I see, you know, the government relations, so, so I understand politics, I understand what was going on here. I'm so proud of the players of how they reacted, they kept their poise. They stuck with their values, you know, we I did counsel with them, you know, like, like, you know, don't just go against somebody, you know, look at who you're going to advocate for what elected leaders share your values and go advocate for that. So, you know, I think the players did that. They advocated generally for voting as well. And so especially in their community, brown and black and brown communities, you know, they they hugely advocated and Blackstone volunteered at polling places, voting places, etc. So, like, it was difficult to be thrown in the middle of that, but I understand politics, I think, you know, help the players strategize around that because they don't have a lot of experience with this, but was really proud of of them sticking with their values and kind of shaping. I think, you know, ultimately, you know, what they wanted to be known for, which was advocating for elected leaders who shared their values.

David Novak 39:57 

That's interesting, you know, and the league is I'm very proactive in supporting the LGBTQ community. There's a lot of controversy, you're in the middle of a lot of controversy, get the study, let your jobs all of that there's a lot of controversy about transgenders competing. You know, what's your view on that?

Cathy Engelbert 40:18 

Yeah, I would just say, obviously, it's something I consult with Adam about. And, you know, obviously, there's some legislation recently, but you know, we've been known as one of the most inclusive leagues and sports. So we'll continue because of our diversity, whether it's our women of color, or our LGBTQ plus community, or the trans community, like this is who we are, we're extremely inclusive. And when we have to deal with one offs, we'll deal with one offs around, you know, the emerging both political and legislative landscape around around that, but right now, we're hugely supportive of our players, who, whether they're LGBTQ plus or not, you know, what they stand for, what their values are, we've just always been known as such an inclusive league. And, and the players have taught me a lot about this. I mean, I thought like at Deloitte were one of the most inclusive organizations. I mean, these players are really passionate about being these role models in their communities, again, for tolerance and inclusivity, and equity. And so they fight for that every day. They carry, I think, a heavy burden around all of this, because as you said, there's always controversy around it. So we'll take fact patterns one by one as these legislations roll out. Like today, we don't we don't have fact patterns, we just our answer is we're an inclusive league. And, and we'll we'll look at fact patterns, one on one, you know,

David Novak 41:42 

it's so important for a leader to seven agenda, and you said you came in and you had to three pillars. And how did you go about coming up with that agenda so quickly? I mean, it seems to be so right on is what it seems like you walked in, these are the three things we're going to focus on, did you do any homework? Or

Cathy Engelbert 42:01 

how did you I must have it not really. But as I embarked on this listening tour with the 12 market, so I immediately like I actually went to two markets before I even started, and I said, let me go to WNBA games, they know I'm, you know, been announced, but I had to finish my term at Deloitte. So I have like, you know, I had a month or so to learn a little bit. And I just said, I knew that, you know, they didn't have a permanent president for a while. And now Commissioner, and so I knew I was going to have to come in and I attended a bunch of meetings before I technically started way more than I thought I was going to have to attend. But I wanted that I wanted to be curious, because I didn't know anything about the inner workings of a sports league of the WNBA. So thankful, so that when I came in, the first thing I did is, you know, like, as a good consultant, like, put together the three pillars, and, and, you know, literally started to communicate, because also the people under me, you know, now I went from a firm of 100,000, to a league of 144 players. So you may think, Oh, it's so much smaller, but the impact of these players was so much wider and bigger, especially in diverse communities. So I it had to be right, it had to be player first. But I got hired also to drive new revenue and different economic model as well as you know, make the fan experience of fan engagement better. So it may, it was pretty simple when you look at it, especially when you've observed sports leagues for your whole life, which I have, you know, it was pretty clear to me it had to be simple, had to be executed, there had to be plans under if that are executable. And it had to be transformative. And the one thing I've learned from a lot of CEOs like yourself, like, the bold will win, everything must change. And that's that's what I've been challenging my team about,

David Novak 43:49 

you know, this is an Olympic year and the WNBA. I don't know if everybody knows this actually takes off time to compete in, you know, I'm not sure if I was an owner, Cathy, I'd really liked that. But, you know, you know, my players are gonna go off and play somewhere else. I can't make money, you know, how do the owners feel about that?

Cathy Engelbert 44:12 

Yeah, I think obviously, our owners are super supportive knowing every four years, especially the usap team that's going for their seventh consecutive gold medal. But we also are becoming more of a global game like the NBA has done such a great job bringing in global players. So we'll have you know, not in addition to the 12 US players, we'll also probably have 12 to 15 to 20 other players playing for their countries, you know, Australia and China and Germany and Belgium etc. So it will be interesting, this will be my first time having to take a break. And so we'll break by the middle of July but the nice thing is we'll probably have kind of an all star game as a lead in then to an Olympic sendoff. And then we have great plans to restart the season with the final of our Commissioner's Cup so we're going to try to use it to our advantage But, you know, the owners, you know, obviously know it exists every four years and obviously it was supposed to happen last year. But you know, we're going into our 25th anniversary season, I think we have some neat things planned around that and the Olympics end off and, and then, you know, we'll we'll support, you know, our usap you know, organization which, you know, we do a lot with and you know, for the good of the game, and also, you know, three on three basketball is an Olympic sport this year. So we'll also have WNBA players competing in what they call 3x. Three for the first time in the Olympics. So that's exciting because that's the number one urban sport in the world. And it's kind of like, you know, beach volleyball, which is outdoors and fun and they play music. That's kind of what three V three is. It's kind of a funner version of of the sport but you know, serious because our team is going to be going for the gold there too.

David Novak 45:50 

And it's funny when I was running marquee pizza, I we sponsored by the National three on three basketball tournament, it was like unbelievable. I remember action played with Roger Staubach and one of the events. I wasn't nearly as good as you but you know, celebrity. Yeah, I know that. The the late Kobe Bryant was passionate about women's basketball. And I understand that he met with you. Tell us about your discussion with with Kobe and how it impacted you.

Cathy Engelbert 46:22 

Yeah, it was so interesting. So I'm like two months into the job and Adam Silver's over in China. And Kobe is there and Adam says, you know, I get this message. Like, I think Kobe Bryant wants to meet with you. And I'm like, two months in the job. Kobe Bryant was to meet with me. And I'm from Philadelphia. Kobe was from Philadelphia. So I'm like, this is pretty cool. And, and so Adam said, yeah, he came to China. And he didn't want to talk to me about the NBA want to talk about the WNBA and wanted to meet the new commissioner. So literally, probably a week after that Kobe was in my office in New York. And he came in, you know, it was as if we knew I never met him before. Didn't know I'm admired his play, certainly for the Lakers. And, and so was Ziff, we knew each other we're supposed to spend, I think 45 minutes, I gave him an orange hoodie, which is our signature, you know, WNBA logo. And he literally we talked, I think for two and a half hours and about his passion for the sport. His daughter, Gigi, this was in, I think, October of 2019, before the awful tragedy in January of 20. But and he really, I mean, he was a real advocate. What do you need? Kathy? I gave him the vision. I talked about the three pillars. I told him the transformation we had ahead of us. We did need funding and money. And so he's like, What do you need? What do you need? I want to help. And I didn't know a lot about how great Gigi was, and she certainly would have been a star WNBA player, I believe so. So unfortunately, a horrible tragedy was a huge advocate. You know, we've actually started the Kobe and Gigi Bryant Advocacy Award for the WNBA, which will award at some point this year, you know, to honor that legacy and to have others step into his shoes as an advocate because he was really personally, you know, I only met him one time. But you know, for instance, right after the collective bargaining agreement was signed on January 15, who was one of the first people to text me with a thumbs up Kobe Bryant. Yeah, so unfortunately, a couple of weeks later, that horrible accident happened in the helicopter. But, you know, again, I think from the perspective of he is mentorship of our players, I think his legacy lives on definitely in those players.

David Novak 48:39 

You know, Kathy, you're a great speaker, and I really enjoyed watching the speech he gave to the Duke School of Business. And you talked about how the biggest stuff happens in life smallest moments. Could you explain that? Yeah.

Cathy Engelbert 48:55 

And you know, as you look back over your career, David, I look back over my career. I mean, it really was the small moments that that like made you who you are, both as a leader and ultimately the breaks that you got in your career. So just a quick story. I had many turning points in my career, but one I credit a lot with was, you know, I happen to be pregnant with my second child, but I hadn't told many people yet. And the firm came to me and said, Oh, we want you to move to this Midwest City. And it was going to be to serve a large client. I was a young partner. So I was so blessed and honored. But I knew there was a large client and the industry I was serving at the time, which was pharmaceuticals. And this client was literally two miles from my house, no stop signs. And I could envision running home to feed the baby and then heading back to work seamlessly. So I consulted with a mentor who said, you know, Kathy, you could say no to the opportunity in the Midwest, but like try to solve another problem. This leader came to you with a problem. He's got to find somebody to fill this position. So try to solve another problem. He has come with a solution so I knew they were looking for someone to fill this lead part. Enrolling that New Jersey company. So I said like, instead of that, and I was nervous instead of that client in the Midwest, how about this client in New Jersey? And Davey, you know what that reader said to me? Oh, we never would have thought of you for that. And I'm saying inside, that is all I'm thinking of, for me. So the lesson there was, you know, a small moment, but nobody's thinking about your career as much as you are. And I'd said no, to the one opportunity open the huge door for the other. And, you know, the small moment was like, had I gone to the Midwest, I probably would have never been then positioned to be the CEO of Deloitte. And so like, sometimes when you say, No, you're taking a risk, but if you follow it with what I call a, yes, you know, you your path goes somewhere else. So there was a lot of small things like that throughout my career, you know, that that shaped ultimately how I got to where I got to, but you know, I was just blessed to make those decisions and constantly raise my hand to do something different and that it was those small moments that led to a big moment, ultimately, to be appointed the CEO. It's

David Novak 51:04 

a great, great insight. You know, this has been so much fun talking to you, Kathy, you know, I want to have a little bit more with a lightning round of q&a for you. Ready for this? Okay, ready? The three words that best describe you?

Cathy Engelbert 51:18 

Oh, so competitive,

David Novak 51:20 

I knew that was gonna be

Cathy Engelbert 51:23 

good. You tell? That's number one. But also, I mean, focus? Definitely. And I'd say, courageous.

David Novak 51:32 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Cathy Engelbert 51:37 

One person, um, you know, probably the leader I admire most is Abraham Lincoln. Because his entire cabinet was against him. And he had so much failure, I think he ran four times for Congress in the Senate. And last and he was a risk taker, he failed a lot. His business failed. And so I really always admired him. And I would like to put myself back in that time when his entire cabinet was against what he was doing. And he had the courage to do what he thought was right.

David Novak 52:07 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Cathy Engelbert 52:11 

Well, personally, my kids would say it's dirty dishes in the sink. But in business, it's definitely complaining about problems without solutions.

David Novak 52:20 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Cathy Engelbert 52:25 

Oh, I can juggle. So I can juggle three basketballs, eggs, anything. I'm a juggler.

David Novak 52:32 

That's good. What's the coolest thing about being the commissioner of the WNBA?

Cathy Engelbert 52:39 

You know, my heart gets so warm when you know, I attended, I think 39 straight games last last year in our bubble, and just seeing these players thrive is definitely the coolest thing. Like we did so much planning and scenario planning leading up and trying to keep them healthy and safe. And when they got on the court for that first game, you know, it was just so warming. And that was so cool to see that level play and how great those players are.

David Novak 53:04 

Now, what would be the your kids, what do they think is the coolest thing about you being the commissioner the WNBA? Is it the orange hoodie? Yeah,

Cathy Engelbert 53:13 

well, I have to say that, you know, I think my daughter always thought I was cool being the CEO of Deloitte, but my son didn't like stand in it. And my daughter is 23 now but but when I became the commissioner of the WNBA, my son was playing high school baseball. And the day I was announced, I actually was able to get to the game. So I go to the game. And, you know, my son comes up to me and says, Mom, you know, he was the captain for the game. It was his senior year. So he went up to the the umpires with the head coach, and, and yeah, they introduced each other and the head coach goes, his mom was just announced as the Commissioner of the WNBA. And the umpires were like, That's the coolest thing we ever heard. So I think my son thought I was cool for that day on. Really like it although my son's so funny. Like, I didn't the one thing I didn't want in my second act was a big, like, public facing media job. And he's like, Mom, you know, this is gonna be more media and I said, guys, a women's small Women's League. And there's a big public facing media job, which, you know, is not what I wanted. But you know, obviously ideal it.

David Novak 54:16 

You've got the 2021 season coming up, but what are you most excited about?

Cathy Engelbert 54:20 

Yeah, 25th season, we had a very active free agency period, which the collective bargaining agreement allowed for much more active free agency, we had some blockbuster moves, including Candace Parker to Chicago, but again, on the way to building household names and rivalry. So I'm excited, you know, to get this tipped off, hopefully, you know, with help the right health and safety protocols.

David Novak 54:44 

You know, you're such an accomplished woman and you've talked about competing in a male dominated world. What would be the number one advice you'd give to aspiring female leaders?

Cathy Engelbert 54:57 

Yeah, definitely. Re Use your hand and build your capabilities. Because, you know, we're no one's thinking about your career as much as you are. And I mean, I have to say that time and time again, if I hadn't raised my hand, I went to our national office and did research, if I didn't raise my hand and do something different when I went to our Capital Markets Group, and you have to raise your hand and you can't fear failure, you can't, you know, that, you know, I think it was Wayne Gretzky that said, you really miss you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. And I do think fear of failure is one of the biggest, you know, factors that stop you from being successful. So that's my best advice.

David Novak 55:38 

I got to ask you this. Would you want to become the first female commissioner of the NBA?

Cathy Engelbert 55:45 

That's not in the plan. I mean, I've got a lot of work to do.

David Novak 55:49 

On the gotta be on the back of chart, I gotta tell you. So what would be the the unfinished business for Kathy engelberg?

Cathy Engelbert 55:59 

Yeah, I mean, I want to continue to make an impact in the lives of particularly young women who I think lack a lot of confidence in raising their hand, but advice I can raise your hand and, and build your capabilities, but they lack the confidence. And one quick story. You know, when I became the CEO of Deloitte, here, I am being hailed as the first female CEO of a big four accounting consulting firm. And so I have an opening on my executive team, and nine men come in, knock on my door and ask for the job and no women. And here I'm saying to a woman, and I thought I would change that, but it doesn't happen because women don't usually raise their hand. And so, so really important to me to continue with the women's leadership platform, and work with advancing women and now diverse women in you know, kind of business world. So I'm looking forward to, you know, we just announced Renee Montgomery to become a part owner in the Atlanta Dream. She is a player who just retired. She's fabulous. And I look forward to seeing her success in her post playing career, helping run that team and business. And I hope to replicate that at least in the short term for other WNBA players.

David Novak 57:07 

Well, Kathy, I can't thank you enough for raising your hand. And being on this podcast. It's been just an absolute delight, hearing your thoughts on where you're taking the WNBA and your thoughts on leadership. And I really congratulate you on the success you've had so far and know that the best is yet to come.

Cathy Engelbert 57:29 

Thank you, David. Thanks for all you're doing. My daughter, 23 years old, when I told her I was doing this. She goes, I listened to David novex podcast, so especially when we were in quarantine. So you know, thanks for what you're doing. You're making a big impact, I think on the next generation as well.

David Novak 57:53 

Well, there certainly are some exciting things ahead for the WNBA. And while there are some big challenges ahead, too. They've got a heck of a leader and Kathy engelberg. I mean, she's navigated the collective bargaining agreement, a pandemic, the cry for social justice, all while trying to elevate the profile of the women's game. It's big stuff, for sure. But she also understands that when you want to accomplish big things, you need to start by doing small things that have symbolic value. That's such a fantastic bit of advice. In this one, I'd like to help you apply as you grow as a leader this week as a part of your weekly personal development plan. Think about a big challenge you're facing something that's going to take some real time and some real effort to shift. Fan instead of considering the big challenge. brainstorm some small wins, that would have some symbolic value. Go out and get those achievable wins. And you'll build trust and momentum with your team as you head towards the bigger goal. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is that the great leaders do small things with big significance. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be