David Novak 0:04 

Hey everybody, welcome to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Daniel Urbanski, founder of kind snacks, which is the fastest growing snack brand. And one of my personal favorites. It's not every day that you can find a snack that's healthy, and so tasty. But as you're going to hear in this conversation, Daniel is really good at finding a way to advance two seemingly contradictory goals. And it's been a game changer for both his business and his life. He calls it the philosophy of and, and it's an incredible way to maximize value with every decision you make. We talk about how it works, and so much more in this conversation, including what it's like to really be a shark on Shark Tank, rich, he happens to be so here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Daniel Lebowski.

Daniel, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Daniel Lubetzky 1:21 

It's a pleasure to be with you, David.

David Novak 1:23 

You know, Daniel, I want to start by saying hello, and how are you? You know, I understand that you could say hello, and how are you in 40 different languages, you know, how that come about?

Daniel Lubetzky 1:36 

I love languages. When I was a kid, I was taught that my dad could speak fluently nine languages, but in full, not just a couple of words. And I started learning a couple languages. And then I discovered how special it is to be able to surprise a person in their language. And I learned a few quirky proverbs that I can share with a taxi driver in New York or with a person when I meet them somewhere, and they're not expecting and it's just like, you totally fill up somebody's heart and discover a completely new world. When you learn a little bit about their culture, their language.

David Novak 2:15 

Yeah, I know you're running a global business myself. And people love it when you take an interest in their country, their culture and their language. And, you know, I want to get to your kind business. But first, I understand that your your mission in life is to be a bridge builder. You know, what's driving that?

Daniel Lubetzky 2:34 

Well, it started when I was a kid, my was a Jewish kid in Mexico, which is a country that's predominantly Catholic. And my mom and dad taught us about the importance to build bridges. My father was a Holocaust survivor. And they taught me about my duty as a human being to lead my life every day, with a view towards preventing what happened to my dad from happening again, to any other human being. And so I observed how my mom and my dad used to give popcorn to the person in the theater next to them in COVID times that sounds really, really weird. But back then, it was very charming that my parents always offered, you know, to share with with strangers and to break bread with others and to treat the teller in the bank with the same kindness as they treated the precedent in the bank and to treat everybody with respect and kindness.

David Novak 3:36 

That is, that's terrific. And you know, that had to be harrowing, just to hear your father talk about his experiences. And when you think about your leadership today, Daniel, how do you think your Dad's experience is really impacting how you're going about leading your business?

Daniel Lubetzky 3:54 

David, it's very hard to talk about my data and not get emotional in a positive sense. I lost them 18 years ago, and not a day goes by that I don't think about him and how he would have wanted me to live my life. And I wish he had met my wife and my four children and seen a little bit of what I have been able to accomplish for society. And, you know, he was a very special type of leader because he, he always thought about the others before he thought about himself. I don't have that strength. You know, I, most of us lead our lives, thinking about ourselves, right? Like you just you wake up in the morning and you're inside your brain. So you're like, thinking up from your vantage point. And you know, moms have this rare ability to think about the children before they think about themselves. I love my children. boundlessly but when I'm hungry, I start feeding myself when my wife is hungry. She thinks oh, my kids must be hungry. And my dad was just at a different level. He always thought about our family and about others before he thought about himself. And that's how he handled business and that's how he handled them. You think he truly was a servant leader in the best sense of the word before that term was popularized? And I think I don't even get close to him. But I'd like to think that I throes Moses observed him doing business. And I learned a little bit about, about long term thinking and about relationship building rather than being transactional being relationship oriented. So I do think I draw some things from my father.

David Novak 5:31 

Yeah, well, I mean, anybody that does any research on you, knows that you do a lot for others as well. So you picked up a lot from your father, you immigrated to the United States from Mexico, I think in 1984. You know, I traveled a lot when I was a kid, I had to check into schools, it's a pretty anxious thing to do you know, why would you move into a new situation? What did you learn about making friends and how to establish yourself in new situations from going from Mexico to to San Antonio,

Daniel Lubetzky 6:02 

it definitely was an adjustment. You know, in Mexico, not only was it Mexico, compared to the United States, but it was also homogenous Jewish community in a private school in Mexico, compared to a public school that I attended at what was then called Robert Ely High School in San Antonio, Texas. And it was, you know, when I was a kid, and I would watch movies in Hollywood, when I was in Mexico, all of us were like, Oh, my God, this is silly. You know, things like the Breakfast Club, or all these things like that doesn't exist in real life. That's, and you get to San Antonio, and you find out that there are the jocks, and the cheerleaders and the debate kids and the drama kids in the punk rockers and the gangs. And they, and it really was a lot of clicks. And it was fascinating for me. And at an early age, I didn't understand these differences. So I would one day sit down for lunch with their Hispanic kids and the other day with the black kids and the other with a with a white kids. And one that was with the drama kids, the other one with a debate kids and the other one with the job, kids. And one day, this girl named Amber Alonzo, who was kind of like a punk rocker, she approached me and I had kind of had a crush on her. And she's like, Daniel, you know, you need to define yourself, you cannot be friends with all of these people, you destroying the social order, you have to choose one. And then my cousin Eddie made us dressed. I didn't know better. So I didn't know how to get dressed when they were wearing Michael Jackson, leather jackets, and the other repair should find another one, Jackie. So it's just like, you know, if you have to choose what type of outfits not all these different types, but I chose not to do that. And I chose to be friends with everybody. And I think people didn't know what to do with me like, Okay, this is this, this immigrant kid, he doesn't know better, let them be friends with all of us.

David Novak 7:55 

Maybe that's probably why you've been building such a great mainstream brand, you know, you know how to appeal to the masses, you know, now, as I understand it, you've got a real passion to get Israelis and Arabs to work together. And that ultimately led to you developing kind of tell us that story.

Daniel Lubetzky 8:14 

So right after law school, I started a company called Peaceworks, to use business as a force for bringing neighbors together. And its flagship venture was involving Israeli Jews, Israeli route Arabs, Palestinians, Egyptians, Turks, Jordanians. And the concept was to help people break bread together and recognize each other's humanity and then start working with one another, again, economic interest in preserving and maintaining those economic relationships. And as they benefited from trading with one another, they had an incentive to preserve and cement those relationships. So it ended up that that piece rocks became a food company because that was an I would my accent is you Clara, F O D. So there's people think I'm thinking about 50 products, that food. And I launched the line of Mediterranean spreads through cooperative ventures and, you know, 10 years after making many, many mistakes and two steps forward two steps back, I kind of had figured out the natural food industry and I had a lot of friendships in that space. And I personally felt very frustrated with my own snacking options when I was skipping lunch or dinner and working on my dad out of my desk or traveling or criss crossing going door by door still, it's only about I wanted to have a healthy snack that I could feel good about eating and I didn't find anything that felt right to me. And that's how I thought about kind and conceived kindness, a platform were the number one ingredient in everything we make. Lee With nutrient dense ingredients, like wholesome things like almonds, all almonds, or whole fruit or whole grains, and we, you know, can taste good also, but it's helpful for you.

David Novak 10:15 

You know, now here you are, you're the fastest growing snack brand. What can others learn from you and your team about how you made it happen? I mean, if you could really kind of boil it down to a couple things.

Daniel Lubetzky 10:26 

Well, David, mine is not the most traditional path because again, I was 10 years of a lot of mistakes, and a lot of lessons I self learned, I didn't go to business school. And you know, I learned the trade from retailers and buyers who taught me what to do. And I, you know, one thing that I could definitely think applies to every person is, don't be afraid of making mistakes, as long as you're like, really drawing lessons from them. Because a lot of times success came from those first thing years at Peaceworks, where I learned about focus and about not overextending myself and about strategy and about migration strategy and how you go to different channels and about letting your product be get the spotlight and your social mission, as much as I'm passionate about it should not be your driver. And so in terms of marketing to consumers, there's a ton of things that I drew from the mistakes that I made a Peaceworks. And I think that's probably the most important lesson,

David Novak 11:26 

you actually trademark the line, not only for profit, and what do you mean by that?

Daniel Lubetzky 11:32 

So back in the early 90s, what today we call social intrapreneurs, that term didn't exist. And social capitalism, that term didn't exist. And I was trying to explain who we were what we were people ask us or your business or your nonprofit. And when we say, well, we're a business with a social mission, also in the Peaceworks years. So we conceive the term not only for profit, so in the legal tax code, you can either be a for profit or not for profit. But reality is you can do both, you can try to advance societal goals, or make your small contribution to making this a better world and do it in a way that's sustainable, and profitable and scalable, which is using market forces. And that's you know, where you're when you're able to do that it's a lot of fun to be able to create businesses that have a deeper impact in society. It's not always something you can pull off. Sometimes you need a nonprofit model to address nonprofit objectives. Or sometimes the business is just a business that's providing jobs and well being unbalanced. alone, more than justifies the role of business in society. I'm a big, proud capitalist. But when you can be holistic about it, and think about the role of capitalism in society, and how we can make this a better world, I think that's when you create the maximum value.

David Novak 12:54 

As you've grown your business, you've applied this philosophy of the and explain what you mean by that.

Daniel Lubetzky 13:01 

So the and philosophy is something that came to me naturally. But I only realized that much later. And then we brought it, we synthesize that into, into the set of principles that we live by a kind. And it's kind of like when I wrote my college thesis. I chose economics and international relations. And by melding two disciplines together, I was able to write about the influence of economics, in resolving their Israeli conflict. Similarly, when we're conceiving kind, we want it to be something that's healthy, but also tasty, or something that's wholesome, also convenient to travel on the go, or something that's economically impactful, and socially impactful and economically sustainable. And the theory of and David, is that a lot of times in life, our brains take shortcuts for efficiency. And it's good that they have these heuristics where they draw conclusions, but it can also be dangerous, because sometimes those conclusions are actually wrong. And they are efficient in the short term, but they might not create the maximum value. So you as a person that's trying to start an enterprise or live a more fulfilled life, need to question things and we need to ask, what are the underlying assumptions making me think that I have to choose between this or that, you know, the mindset of or is make choices between this and that. And sometimes you do need to make choices between short term and long term in between this and that. But very often you're able to think with and and elevate to a higher level of productivity by saying, Wait, could I do this? And that what is the underlying assumption here? And can I test and challenge that underlying assumption and prove that actually, there's a way to advance two seemingly opposing goals?

David Novak 14:58 

It makes total sense in Yeah, it's it's interesting you I think about what you've been able to accomplish. You've, you've been, you basically have grown from being, you know, one person with a pretty big idea. Okay, I'd say a very big idea to running a large organization, what was the hardest thing that you had to let go?

Daniel Lubetzky 15:19 

It's still a work in progress. Like, right, David, it's all of us have egos. And there's a healthy ego that makes you want to work harder and drive faster and gives you confidence. But we need to manage those egos. And part of growing as a leader is retrenching yourself each time and giving the space for your team to lead. And it's not the easiest job, it really requires a lot of attention and attentiveness to the task. And I'm definitely not perfect at it. But, you know, like you said, David, it was a one person operation run out of the basement of my building. And it was a windowless basement, you had to go through the trash compactor, and the laundry room to get to my windowless basement, that's where I started piece works. And then, you know, I used to vote door by door, and then I had one team member that helped me and that will reform and, you know, going from one to is very hard, because you have to manage, going from two to six or eight is hard, because you only have to have a team. And then at each stage, you need to learn completely different styles of leadership, when you have 15, you need to have key people that are then coaching some of your team. And at some point, you know, when you have 500 1000 people, you need to be more of a mentor, and you need to be more of a coach, and to empower people and to inspire them and do a lot more of the inspiration and they don't actually rolling up your sleeves. And for me, that's the hardest part, because I'm still the guy that was running, you know, that little booth at the Natural Products Expo where I was, for 10 years doing it, either on my own or with three or four team members. So I still open up those boxes, I still carry those boxes, and it's just my style and my personality, but I I increasingly want to go from doing all of the things myself to also coaching and it's an area of opportunity and growth for me still, you know, I

David Novak 17:17 

remember when I was coming up from, you know, very humble background as well, and moving up the ladder, you know, as I got to be president and CEO, you know, everybody say, Oh, you shouldn't do that. You don't? Don't you pick up those boxes? I you know, we'll do that, you know, you know, how have you avoided, you know, falling, you know, not falling into that trap of being the, you know, the CEO as the emotional distance stays above the fray?

Daniel Lubetzky 17:42 

Well, I remember, I brought in investors for the first time in late 2008, early 2009. And I remember that at a trade show, they saw me picking up the ball. And they were very good investors, very good mentors, most of the advice they gave me was excellent. But in this case, they said, you know, you know, you're, you're the founder and the present, you don't need to be opening up these boxes. And I listened to them that tradeshow I am it felt so awful, it felt so wrong. And and I told them guys, I'm going back to who I am. That didn't feel right. And in fact, you know, we have a team that does the bulk of it. To be fair, you know, I'm not the guy that builds up the books as I did the first, the first 10 or 12 years or 14 years of my life, but but I do want to carry those boxes and pitch in. And I think it's not just that I'm doing something, but it's also showing to your team that all of us are equal. And all of us are part of the journey. And it's just part of my personality. I think that one doesn't come hard to me to just, if anything I need to sometimes let go. It's that that's more of what I need to do. You know that I only recently David heard maybe in the last week or two a quote from a famous Jewish philosopher called my monitors. And it said that you should lean in to the opposite of your strengths in order to achieve temperance and balance. So if your instinct is to let other people do it, try to practice by doing it yourself. If your instinct is that you do everything yourself, try to practice by empowering others and delegating, but all of us need to try to find balance, you know, with,

David Novak 19:27 

you know, as you well know, Daniel, people follow the leader and, you know, leaders cast a shadow for the rest of their organization. What kind of shadow Do you Do you try to cast?

Daniel Lubetzky 19:40 

You know, I wouldn't call it a shadow. But I completely agree with you. It's been fascinating for me to observe David, the overwhelming impact that a CEO or founders, personality values and culture have on the organization's culture. I mean, I have a lot of fun CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, publicly traded companies that I admire and that I've gotten to know over the years. And I get to know them, and I understand their personalities. And then you look at their companies in the cultures, and they're the same. It's one in the same the culture and values of that leader ended up becoming the cultural values of that organization. And we really have to watch it. And you know, what kind, we tend to be more a little quirky, because I'm a little quirky, we tend to have kind and hungry values, where you try to the how is as important as the word, you know, how you do things, treating people with respect to the team spirit, it's what you aspire to everybody's imperfect, everybody makes mistakes, but you try to do the right values of respect, and team spirit. And then we are very hungry, we work really, really hard. I'm a bit of a workaholic. And I think we do have a very hard working ethic and culture at the company. And that balance between kind and hungry is very important. Because if you're just kind, sometimes you lose that edge. And if you're just hungry, then you lose that spirit, and you have to find the balance. Probably the thing that we're best known for our kind is our authenticity and transparency. And it's very much how I've led within the organization where we just say what needs to be sad and speak to each other with candor, and just are direct and honest. And I think that's part of our culture.

David Novak 21:43 

You know, the annual I follow you on Twitter, and, and, and I enjoyed this 120 years, which is, as being the most creative company can level the playing field with even bigger competitors, you know, how do you personally drive creativity in your organization, you know, it's not that easy to think outside the box, that's not a easy thing to do.

Daniel Lubetzky 22:02 

Yeah, and the first thing with a quote you mentioned is that if you're playing by the same rules, and with the same, you know, set of tools, that you larger competitors, and you're at a disadvantage, because your larger competitors have far more resources. So for startups, and for smaller and younger companies, or for any company that wants to maintain the edge, creativity is the thing that creates a level playing field. So the way we try to instill creativity, first and foremost is by creating an ownership culture, where we make sure that our team understands that their owners not just in fact, by giving financial incentives, or long term incentives, but also by understanding that they're empowered. And with that power comes a responsibility for them to run the company if it's if it's their baby. And then we do have a set of tools that we try to introduce, I wrote about him on how to handle a creative mindset and how to brainstorm and how to try to encourage that creativity,

David Novak 23:08 

you've really moved and innovated, you've started out with your Kind bars, and you've moved into different categories. And you're much more than a a bar company, you know, what goes into your thinking before you enter into new categories. So

Daniel Lubetzky 23:23 

the most important thing, which I only learned from making the mistake of not doing that at Peaceworks is keeping the kind promise knowing what you stand for what you are what you not. So if you go to our website on kindness, or calm and you look for the kind of promise from Google, you will see a set of principles that we try to very, very strictly abide by, we try to not even if it's tempting, not go and launch products that will not fit very, very clearly within our kind promise. And there's a set of commitments about what the provenance to look like stand for beef. And even if there's a fad or a trend that makes oh my god, this thing is doing what if it doesn't fit with our can promise we won't do it. So I think that's the the foremost and then do you have permission from the zoo brand have permission to go into different category. And Ambassador Thomas Pickering once taught me this. He was one of the foremost diplomats but he also there was an executive at Boeing. And he taught me that business sometimes is like a board of chess. And if you think of that board of chess with those 64 squares, you want to go to your adjacencies before you jump, you know, all the way to other side of the board. So if you're a fruit not bar, company, can you then create fruit not bar snacks or not? Some thing are bars that are with grains, but you only move one step out of the way at a time, if you jump from being out a whole lot and fruit bar company to a company that has nothing to do with the fruits with the knots or within or with the bars, it's a little bit harder to control machines, you take it one step at a time. And really make sure that you build the permission structure for you to go into, you know, for us, when I launch kind, it was never about being a bar company, I never thought of kindness of our company. That's what we didn't call it kind bar, it was just kind or kind snacks, or kind of healthy snacks. But we've never used Kind bars or name. Because we always thought of as a platform for healthy snacking. Within greens, you can see I'm pronounced with nutrient density with that that was our language. And so when we launched the kind, healthy green glow granola clusters and where they came healthy green clusters and the kind of healthy green bars, he was always feeding and moving in that direction. Now we have we're in the freezer, but we start in the freezer with bars, kind of frozen that we're leading with almonds still, but now in a frozen state. And so we're slowly moving into the freezer, through something that we have permission structure, which is an almond bar, it's just a frozen treat.

David Novak 26:21 

You know, I have a lot of respect for lawyers, and many lawyers, my best friends, if you're a lawyer, but Cimini How did you become such a good marketing guy? Just through the going through the all the learnings I mean, you talk like you get the you're the marketing guru

Daniel Lubetzky 26:41 

26 years of mistakes.

David Novak 26:44 

I love it. I love it. You know, you know, you also say, Daniel, that you that you really want to create a culture where every team member knows that their voice is as important as yours. I know you're an idealistic person, but that seems almost impossible. I mean, you know, how in the world can you create a culture where where that can actually happen? You're right,

Daniel Lubetzky 27:06 

it's very hard, you have to strive for it. But you know, I have meetings where sometimes I come up with an idea. And people don't challenge it. And I start getting terrified. Because I am I have mentors and friends that I've seen them how people don't challenge them in their larger organizations. And it's very dangerous to create a situation, you know, my chief of staff, Ellie laning, once told me that, you know, had asked for people to do X, and they were going out doing X and she said, Do you realize that to do x is going to cost us a million dollars, and it's going to involve these and six months on Mike, of course, don't don't do it. And she went and told them and they said, But Daniel said to do it. And it doesn't make sense. But what we need to do as leaders is make sure that we create a permission culture, when we say do this is do this with an asterisk. And that asterisk you should carry across to everything I say is, so long as it makes sense. And if it doesn't make sense in European and you're closer to it, don't do it, raise your hand and say I'm not doing it, I'm going to do it differently, and you will be rewarded. And it's also about creating a permission structure for people to take risks and to challenge you. And you know, I'm a very forceful debater, and so I can't help myself, I just need to accept that that's who my personality is. So sometimes somebody comes up with an opinion, and I don't agree with him, and I debated forcefully, I have to, then make sure that people understand. Oh, and by the way, John, thank you for everything you said. I really, really admire and respect that you said that. And, and, and then or, you know, sometimes be convinced. But it's very important that if they convince you, that's awesome, and then you bring that and remind people and remind people about the times when their point made it and they were right, and you were wrong. And then other than that, if you are not convinced, then it's very important to remind those team members that that still was an awesome exercise and that that person deserves a race or deserves the recognition for challenging you.

David Novak 29:21 

You say you don't want to just create a company you want to create a movement. You know, how how do you go about igniting your people around that kind of idea. So you know, a huge thought,

Daniel Lubetzky 29:31 

well, first of all, I don't think it fits for every company. For kind, it made sense, because what kind of stands for but you shouldn't do know, every company should try to have this language if it doesn't feel authentic, and it's not authentic, because it's gonna fall on their fears in the consumers. If it feels nothing, it's actually going to backfire. But for kind of the reason we want to become a movement is that we create a time not just to do the kind thing for your body and for your tastebuds. Hello, do the counting for your world. And what that means is that it is part of our mission from the very beginning to try to increase empathy and kindness and to make kindness, a state of mind. And a lot of what we invest in from our philanthropy and from our marketing even, is in trying to help people be more kind towards one another and make kindness, you know, friend of mine a state of mind, you know, become the trait that we want all of our children to aspire to, rather than be smarter, or be the be kinder, if we achieve that, then it will be success for us. And so we can't achieve that just by selling products, we do have to create a community and a movement of people that are part of that journey with us.

David Novak 30:46 

You know, Dan, I am loving hearing how you think about leadership and how you're taking your company forward. And I want to get into your head so our listeners can learn how you've really worked through a couple of very specific examples. You know, you recently sold the majority of your your company to Mars, tell us why you did that. What was going on in your mind?

Daniel Lubetzky 31:09 

Well, it was many, many years of thinking. And I always thought about, I always put kind first, you know, and I taught my team to put fanfares, there were people that was the head of this department, and then the company grew and they needed to themselves, hire someone that they will report to, it's an incredibly hard thing to do, and to expect your team to do and to create a culture where team members know when they need to welcome leadership, and they're going to stay involved. But they're going to report to somebody but because we started from nothing, we created that in our culture, because happened so many times where our head of sales, then, you know, ended up reporting to somebody else that became the head of sales, and then that sales ended up reporting to somebody else, because we just kept growing and growing. And developing more skills. It's a meeting more more of that mentorship. And we saw that as an opportunity for us to grow, but also to always put kind first and, you know, at some point, we successfully launched kind in other countries, we did it in the United Kingdom. We did it in Dubai, we did it in Mexico, but it was taking so long, it was very hard to maximize our potential in the United States, and do so globally. And so we felt we needed a partner that would help us do that. And we met a handful of companies and got to know them. And all of them I enjoyed meeting, it was a really enjoyable process. Actually, I think all of these big companies sometimes get a bad rap. Some of them are bad companies, but the overwhelming majority of companies are led by people that are kind people that are good people that have the best skill sets the most professionalism, and they need to have those ethics for them to, you know, grow and achieve that. And so I get to develop very nice friendships. But we chose Maurice because they're privately held. And those are able to be very long term oriented, and the family owned. And so it was very familiar to me, that when your family owned and your privately held, you're able to think generationally rather than quarter by quarter. And that's the that's what drove me to choose Morris as my partner. And the decision to let them become the controlling shareholders is the most recent. And that's not one that I can speak with enormous authority to yet because it only happened like a month ago, I retained an ongoing financial stake, because I want to continue helping kind of achieve what it's going to achieve. But it is new for me to work with my partners. Now with them being having the veto power. And I think it's working really well because I respect them a ton. And they respect me. And we both have something to contribute. And we have so much to learn from my team. And, you know, grant the CEO of Mars, broad enough for mailable leader named Quan Martine to be our global leader for kind to help us grow globally and we got to norm over three plus years and that made a lot of difference that we trust each other a lot. And he understands the DNA of kind and he really thinks about kind the same way and so I think that's so far looking that it's going to be good.

David Novak 34:27 

Yeah, you know, the it seems like the global opportunity really had a lot to do with driving your your thinking here and you know, it's it's so big, good sides have been the answer. It's so hard. It's so hard to build international infrastructure. So I'm sure your brand will really take off now internationally with this with

Daniel Lubetzky 34:46 

that also we're entering new categories like kind froze and thanks to our partnership with them. We would have not been able to do that ourselves even though it was in our in our scope of opportunities. They had the best technology to create To kind of frozen bars,

David Novak 35:02 

you know, you've also Daniel, you're you're a really great guest on Shark Tank. And I wanted you to do this tell us why you decided to make a million dollar investment in yellow leaf, a brand of hammocks made in Thailand.

Daniel Lubetzky 35:15 

My wife wanted to know the same thing when I came home. I love the guys, John Rachel, I love their mission. But I really do believe that the proud of the hammocks, and the hammock throne that they invented is more of a breakthrough product than people realize. I think those hammock Thrones 510 years from now are going to be all over, they're going to become an important piece of furniture. Because, you know, as a Mexican guy, I learned to relaxing hammocks, I associate them with my childhood and my dad used to loving the hammocks, and I love being in the hammocks and our whole family would get into hammocks. And so I enjoy them a lot. But there really is something about that gravitational swing, that it's just really pleasant. And we tend to associate them all only with being on vacation, outdoors. But now John, Rachel hacked it so that you can have that hammock feel as a piece of furniture inside your house. And I think that is awesome. And I'm, you know, I can't wait to get mine. They're taking too long with a supply chain. But I'm waiting to get my hammock thrown inside.

David Novak 36:29 

I hope your investment makes your wife happy ultimately, I think in and what have you learned by you know, learned about leadership by being on Shark Tank and swimming with the so called sharks, they're

Daniel Lubetzky 36:42 

well, they're very different swimming with the sharks and mentoring them entrepreneurs, both very different fields of learning. Swimming the sharks is these guys really are sharks, nothing is staged. You do not know anything before, like a lot of my friends don't believe me, like, you show up and you see the intrapreneur you don't know what's going on beforehand. And these sharks are very witty, they're very smart. They're very fast. And so you need to develop the ability to stay quick and to think sometimes you make mistakes and people like why did you offer this, Amanda? You just need to think on your feet really fast. And so you know, it's not the easiest. And when when we finished recording, like it takes me several days of decompression to just process all of the back and forth debates that happen. I don't know. David, did you were you were a Seinfeld fan? Did you watch Seinfeld?

David Novak 37:34 

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Lubetzky 37:36 

So there's that episode where George Costanza, who happens to be played by Jason Alexander, who's now one of my closest friends, and I love him. But he's like, he got talented. And they named them something mean. And then three days later, he's driving. He's like, Oh, I should have said that. He should have said three days ago, that happens to me when when I record Shark Tank, and days later, I'm like, Oh, my God, why didn't they say this? But then as far as as far as coaching intrapreneurs it is. It's not easy. It's hard. Because you want to, you know, being a founder myself, I really want to honor, honor, honor my fellow founders. And not, you know, not ever disrespect their vision or their decisions. But then sometimes it really is, you know, a little bit hard when you see that they're doing something wrong. And you tell them that they need to do it differently. And they don't listen. And you know, most of them really do listen, but I tend to just whoever's listening, I give them more time and invest more in them and whoever has not listened and at some point I, I reduced my engagement.

David Novak 38:47 

So you know, sometimes she three days later, you say I wish I would have thought of that. But you have taken the time, Daniel to really codify your experience and your learnings, and you've launched a really great new book that I think every leader should read, which is do the kind thing, what made you write it and what do you hope to accomplish with it?

Daniel Lubetzky 39:07 

So I wrote it because I was a few reasons. One of one. My father said, to become a man, you need to have children write a book. And I don't know what the third one was, but like, I just wanted to fulfill my dad's dream of writing a book, which I did. But I think the most important reasons where I wanted to be able to share a lot of what I've learned with fellow entrepreneurs, and a lot of people ask me for advice. And seriously that book, do the kind of thing is designed to help fellow entrepreneurs and I really strongly encourage people to read it. They're either starting businesses or any other social enterprise or nonprofit. I think it's very helpful for people that are either starting or along their way in building their businesses and can also be used Hold, to just learn about the philosophy and mentality what we do. And also, it's very important for my team, you know, now we have, it used to be that all of us knew each other perfectly. Now we have when you count International and designated categories and the companies we've acquired, and we're probably over 1000 people, I'm guessing. And, you know, I want to be able to share our philosophy and our tenants and how we think, and our secrets of our success with our team as well as with other entrepreneurs.

David Novak 40:30 

Well, you're an internationalist, you're growing a global business. And when you think about what I'll just call kind leadership, you know, does the kind mindset is does it work everywhere? You know, a lot of times countries will say, Oh, this won't work here.

Daniel Lubetzky 40:45 

Well, the very important thing to talk about when you're talking about the kind mindset is that kindness is not weakness. And a lot of people equate kindness, with weakness, because they think of being nice. But being nice and being kind are completely different. You know, you can be nice and be passive. But kindness requires action. You can be nice and just be polite and not say anything, not get in trouble. But kindness requires the courage to say what needs to be said, You cannot be kind and just stay back. You can be nice and not cause problems. But to be kind you need to stand up and solve the problems. You can be nice and not bully someone, but to be kind, you need to stand up to the bullying. So yes, I believe that this style of leadership applies everywhere, in diplomacy, in business, in raising our children in everything. But it's it's the true kind. It's not the what some people associate with being nice and a pushover. There's nothing about being a pushover and tiny, there is no weakness in being counted. Like you'd require enormous amounts of strength to reach out to that stranger who's in the street, and you feel that they're suffering, and you need to reach out with a stretch, and you realize how much strength that takes somebody struggling and you could just leave him alone. That's being nice. But to help them out. And to be kind, it requires a lot of strength of a protagonist of an actor of a leader.

David Novak 42:19 

Absolutely. And, you know, having traveled in a lot of countries, I have a kind, and that mindset travels everywhere. You know, Daniel, this has been so much fun. And I want to have more with just a quick lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this? Sure. All right, what are the three words that best describe you?

Daniel Lubetzky 42:39 

Authentic, transparent, and hard working?

David Novak 42:44 

Do you have any hidden talents?

Daniel Lubetzky 42:47 

I'm a magician.

David Novak 42:49 

What's your favorite magic trick?

Daniel Lubetzky 42:51 

Disappearing accordion with my hands?

David Novak 42:54 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Daniel Lubetzky 42:57 

I can say, Hello, how are you? What's your name? Basic sentences in dozens of languages.

David Novak 43:04 

If you could be one person for a day, besides yourself, who would it be? And why?

Daniel Lubetzky 43:09 

Well, I those type of questions. I tend to think my father, just so that I could feel him inside me one more time. And so I could sense His presence. And so I could learn from him. And so like, wow, I

David Novak 43:21 

wish I could have met your father. He sounds like that I

Daniel Lubetzky 43:24 

could have like, asked so many questions about how I could or should do things differently. Oh,

David Novak 43:30 

yeah. What's your biggest pet peeve?

Daniel Lubetzky 43:33 

Well, I have many, very, I'm very impatient. Lack of authenticity, fakeness or injustice in I think injustice may be my biggest pet peeve when people are unjust to one another or where they lie and I lack of scruples.

David Novak 43:50 

And so what's your what's your favorite kind, kind product,

Daniel Lubetzky 43:54 

I really don't have one. I love them all like my children at the moment. So the dark chocolate nut and sea salt is the number one bestseller. And it's like a really magic combination between savory and sweet. But you know, I just fill up my drawer here. I have a raspberry cashew chia, which is just delicious. And I have a protein bar crunchy peanut butter. And so I like to keep it. I like to mix it up.

David Novak 44:23 

I knew you wouldn't give us your favorite either. You wouldn't do it. You know? Nobody does. They're all your babies, you know? And you know, just a few more questions and we'll wrap this up. Daniel,

Daniel Lubetzky 44:32 

I get to ask you questions.

David Novak 44:34 

You can ask me anything you want.

Daniel Lubetzky 44:36 

What was your favorite food to eat? Not not performance wise, but have your chains What was your favorite food?

David Novak 44:43 

Well, that's why I knew you would say I couldn't pick one. I had products at each brand that I loved. Like for example, I love pan pizza at Pizza Hut. I loved the original recipe at KFC and I loved the crunchy taco just the bay SC crunchy taco at Taco Bell. And those were the three things that, you know, I just absolutely love and still love them to this day. It I wanted to ask you, Daniel, tell us about in patacones. And why you found it it can be ethical

Daniel Lubetzky 45:12 

is a platform to help children connect with other children all across the world so they can expand their horizons, we go into classrooms, and we allow teachers to connect their classroom to children, like let's say, children in Northwest Arkansas can meet kids in New York, or kids in Delaware can meet kids in Nigeria, or kids in Memphis, Tennessee, they're all black kids who have never met a white kid before can develop a relationship with kids in southern New Jersey who had never met a black kid before. And it's just magical how you expand kids horizons and help teach them how to navigate their differences, which is such an essential skill set for this world. And he helps them be better leaders develop empathy and emotional intelligence, or discover the world as it is and just, you know, expand those horizons.

David Novak 46:07 

I love that, you know, you know, Dan, you've received so much recognition, what's meant the most to you,

Daniel Lubetzky 46:13 

without any doubt, it's my kids telling me that I'm the best dad. And sometimes they don't when I don't let them use an iPad, but it's being a good father and them feeling that and connecting with them. And there's nothing that comes close to that feeling.

David Novak 46:32 

How have you incorporated recognition into your into your own leadership?

Daniel Lubetzky 46:36 

You know, we have we have an award once a year called the kindness of the Year award. And then we have other kind of hungry valleys Awards, where we share with a team that lived those values, that exemplify those values throughout the year, and we celebrate them. And this kindness of the Year Award travels every year, and everybody gets a little kindness award. But then there's a big one that gets plaques and, and it just passes from one to the other year by year. I think we could do a lot more in terms of our recommendation. You

David Novak 47:13 

know, you talked about the and earlier on, what would be the end that you're trying to bring to your personal life?

Daniel Lubetzky 47:20 

Well, I can answer two ways, David, First, I need to be a better manager of my time. And that's not so easy to do with that that's more like discipline. But if there could be a land and like, you know, let's say advance my business and civic and social objectives while teaching my children, which I do a little bit, that's a man right, like helping kids become citizens of the world and more responsible while doing something good. I think that's that's an end. But the biggest challenge for me right now, David is our society is so polarized, it's so divided, we're living through something I personally never thought that I would live through in America, in the United States, I came from Mexico, as a sort of a Holocaust survivor, passionate about the Middle East, I have a lot of experience with division and polarization. And trying to overcome that in other countries. And I realized, interestingly, you know, sometimes I think there's Providence. And maybe it was meant to be that way that I was gonna develop all of that knowledge and skill sets. But whatever it is, I'm going to be dedicating the plurality of my time in the coming years, to try to take a lot of those lessons on how to build bridges, and apply them in full force, using both economic and other civic tools to help build bridges in our own society and lift your boats and help people.

David Novak 48:49 

You know, Daniel, that was gonna be my last question. What's your unfinished business that you just gave that gave me the answers? And, you know, I do a lot of podcasts. And I love doing them because I love learning from leaders. And I have to tell you, this is one of my favorites. You know, you you are an incredible person with an incredible story trying to do great things in the world and and I want to congratulate you on everything that you're doing. The kindness that you're trying to drive around the world and the humility that you have as a leader, I think your father would be extremely proud of you. I know he would be.

Daniel Lubetzky 49:24 

David, thank you. That means a lot to me and I look forward to meeting you in person one of these days. I would love to getting to know you.

David Novak 49:40 

Well, I don't know about you, but I just love how Daniel leads, you can tell kind isn't just the name of the company for him. It's a value that comes from who he is and how he was raised. And man, that authenticity is just so powerful. Here we have this guy who went out of his way to make friends with the jocks and The nerds in his high school. And then he developed a snack that's both tasty and good for you. And he founded kind where the goal is to make profit and make the world a better place. I just love this philosophy of and where we look for ways to advance two seemingly opposing goals. Instead of assuming we have to choose one or the other. We can check the underlying assumptions and see if there's a way to do both. When we do we maximize value and build bridges. Boy, that's the kind of creative thinking that every leader needs to embrace. And it's an opportunity for me to offer you a bit of coaching. This week, as a part of your weekly personal development plan. Grab a sticky note and write the word and on it nice and big. Put it somewhere you can see it every day like I put mine on my refrigerator door. And as you make decisions this week, keep that philosophy of and in mind. Check underlying assumptions. When you face choices. Think creatively. See what kind of amazing things that are possible when you find a way to do both. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders embrace the philosophy of and thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the very best leader you can be