David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. The first Saturday of May is coming up, and it's time for the most exciting two minutes in sports, the Kentucky Derby, that means I get to share this timeless conversation I had with Donna Barton brothers, the Chief Operating Officer of starlight racing. She also just happens to be one of the most decorated female jockeys in the horse industry, and the leading on track television broadcaster for NBC. Now, when you watch the Kentucky Derby, right after the race, she'll be the one out there on the track, riding her horse backwards, as she talks the winning jockey in the moments after the race. Now that takes some talent. But you know, that's not the only thing that based on a remarkable, she has so much great insight about what it takes to win. And as you'll hear today, there's a ton of parallels between how jockeys get the most out of their horses, and how we as leaders can get the most out of our teams. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Donna Barton brothers.

I want to thank you so much for being on the show.

Donna Barton Brothers 1:33 

Well, I have to admit, not only is it my pleasure, I'm really honored because I've listened to a lot of your podcasts and you have a pretty heady group that I've listened to already. So I'm not really sure why why I'm here but I'm honored to be here. You're now

David Novak 1:44 

the Chief Operating Officer of starlight racing. Now what's what's the biggest leadership challenge you have for your business it Starlight racing.

Donna Barton Brothers 1:54 

I will say the the biggest challenge for me, David. And it's interesting that you asked that because I thought about it after listening to some of your podcasts is that I came into my position at Starlight racing after having done two things in my life that I would call careers one was being a jockey. And the other one is working as a reporter for NBC Sports. Neither one of those are team sports. I've never had to try to develop a team. I've never had to try to get the boss and the employees on the same page. And so I realized that as the Chief Operating Officer at Starlight racing, I had learned how to run a team. My boss does a really great job at what he does. Jack Wolf is the managing partner of starlight racing, he does a phenomenal job of hiring the right trainers of hiring the right bloodstock agents to buy the horses of getting people together and getting money together to pay for those horses. But he doesn't see himself so much as a leader of employees, he sees himself as a leader of the horse racing partnership. And so I recognized early on that I'm gonna have to take that role because he doesn't really want it. And so sometimes I have to play the role of uniter of both the boss and the employees and try to bring everybody together and get everybody on the same page. And it's been challenging, but I've enjoyed the challenge.

David Novak 3:11 

As you you know, you've been very successful and as a jockey. Now you're in this in the business of horse racing, but you've also become a famous, well known broadcaster. How'd you get into the business? Tell us a story how you got it got into broadcasting.

Donna Barton Brothers 3:31 

As you mentioned, I was fortunate enough to have some success as a jockey. And so, you know, think about Brian at Turfway park in the winter. And let's say that there's a story that one of the local news stations wants to do and they want to talk to a jockey. Well, in the winter Turfway park, there weren't a lot of jockeys there who number one spoke English and if they did, were particularly articulate with English. And so if they wanted to talk to a jockey, I was one of the leading writers there. Turfway park management would often say, we've got just the one for you down a bar and we'll talk to you right and so I did a lot of interviews because of that. I did a lot of interviews because of my success, which I'm grateful for. And so when I retired from riding, I think it was just sort of a natural progression, but I didn't really I really didn't put up feelers for it. It just sort of happened. The local news stations here had me do some Derby coverage for their Derby coverage in the very beginning. Just a little bit here and there not even on Derby Day just I did like horse racing 101 piece but Julie Kane egg back at WHS many, many years ago. And so when I went down to New Orleans for the winter, I started doing interviews after the stakes races there. And then when I came back here in the spring, this was in 1999. I retired in 1998 from being a jockey John Asher had just been promoted to vice president and he asked me if I would do the handicapping segments with Mike metaglip. Vice President of Churchill Downs, yes, one of the many Vice Prime Since I'm sorry, Churchill. And so I started doing the handicapping segments with Mike Battaglia. I had never handicap the race, by the way, from the standpoint of how do you bet on it, I had always handicap the race very biased on how do I win. And so it was a new way to learn how to look at the race. And that's what I was doing in 2000, when NBC came to Churchill Downs, because they had acquired the rights for the derby for 2001. And they saw what I was doing, and unbeknownst to me, they needed a reporter on horseback and asked me about joining the broadcast team. So I really got kind of lucky on that, you're always

David Novak 5:33 

the first to congratulate the Derby winner, tell us about the process of how do you get in position to be there to greet the Derby winner and

Donna Barton Brothers 5:45 

having a fast horse helps. So that's the first thing, I always find a good horse to ride, because I have connections with the different racetracks I go to now, if it's a Churchill Downs, and is the Kentucky Derby, that's a mile and a quarter races, everybody knows. And so the quickest and most efficient way for me to get there from Churchill Downs is as soon as they spring, the latch on those horses, I take off the other way. So the horses are racing counterclockwise. I'm racing on the outside fence clockwise around the racetrack. When I get to about the half mile poll, the horses have now turned up the backside and are racing towards me. So I stop, let them pass. And by the way, it's a nice snapshot for me of the horses and how they all look at that point. And then I continued on the backside again, going the opposite direction from them. And then I'll have time to sit over there for I would say a good 10 seconds before the horse has crossed the wire. And then I'll immediately take my notes out look real quick on it. You know, I've pretty much have all this stuff memorized at that point. But it never hurts to take the notes out just because there's so many things going on. And there's so many things to know. And so I'll look and then I just tried to stay out of the shot until they get the shot that they wanted the Derby winner galloping out and all that. And then I get in there. It's different at the other two tracks with the Triple Crown. So both after the Preakness and after the Belmont Stakes when they spring, the latch on those horses, meaning when they start, I'll actually come out from behind the starting gate and follow the horses. So I'll be headed the same direction as them. And then I just go around the backside and wait for them. And how do I know what's going on, by the way as I just listened to the call of the race from Larry calmness, because early on, I tried to listen to the call, watch the race on one of the big screens, ride my horse, try to make sure my horse didn't spook or duck from anything. And I realized that that is just too many multitasking things for me to do. And so I just listened to the call of the race and try to ride my horse and make sure I don't fall off while the horses are out there running around the racetrack. That would be quite a debacle. So that's how I get there.

David Novak 7:45 

What would be your most memorable Kentucky Derby? Most memorable, most emotional?

Donna Barton Brothers 7:49 

Well, I think the one that probably that stands out for everybody. And it would for me too is when Calvin Brown won his first Kentucky Derby on a horse named street sense trained by Carl Nasser. And the reason why is because Calvin Burrell that was this first of three Kentucky Derby wins. He doesn't know how to be anything other than raw emotion. And so when he after the race, as soon as I caught up with him, he was just just so grateful. And he was already crying. And he just doesn't hold anything back. As far as his emotions go. He was grateful to Carl NASCAR who had given him that opportunity. He was really close to his parents, and they weren't able to be there. They were in a nursing home in Arkansas. And so he he was grateful that he had won the race and at the same time mournful that his parents weren't there to celebrate with him. But his older brother who was 12 years older than him, who practically raised him really was there. So we were able to talk about what it meant to him to have Cecil be there. His brother Cecil burrow, and just the raw emotion of Calvin after that race, it was really touching.

David Novak 8:56 

You know, a lot of people put the Kentucky Derby on their bucket list. You know, this is something I have to do. Why do you think the Kentucky Derby should be on your, your bucket list?

Donna Barton Brothers 9:06 

Well, I think Ashley Judd said it best this year, she did a tease, as we call it for the NBC show. And they had her sitting in a bar that was looked like an empty bar, and they poured her a drink of bourbon on the rocks. And she looked right at the camera and said, So you're at a derby party, really? How nice. And then she paused perfectly as Ashley Judd would and then said, you know, you're not going to hear this from many people, and especially not now, but I'm gonna be honest with you. You're kind of blowing it right now. Until you've been there and seen it with your own eyes, smelled it, felt it. You haven't seen the Kentucky Derby and she talked about how she's from Kentucky and it has this and that's the thing that I've often said is that you know that what we do with NBC we have 75 cameras on the racetrack. We have microphones everywhere. And still, we'll never be able to capture the feel of it, we're never going to be able to capture what it feels like when everybody 160,000 people and all sing My Old Kentucky Home together my favorite moment when everybody stands up and reverence of not just this day, but these three year olds that are out on the racetrack about to give everything for us. And so yeah, it's just the field will never be able to be captured. And that's why you have to be there,

David Novak 10:31 

though. How do you try to differentiate yourself? Or do you in the business of broadcasting? And what do you think, you know, do you really think about what you do that's gonna make you better than someone else?

Donna Barton Brothers 10:41 

Yeah, sometimes I think about that too much. And so about a few years ago, I had a bit of a meltdown with my sister. And we were actually at a Tony Robbins event. And so you know, how Tony Robbins is just be the best at everything, right. And I had a bit of a meltdown with my sister, and I said, you know, our mother raised us to be the best at whatever it is that we do. And I get that I said, but I'm not the best broadcaster in the industry. And she said, Are you out of your mind? And I said, No, I'm not out of my mind. I think Diane Sawyer, for example, is about a broadcaster. But as my sister pointed out, Donna, there's never been anybody who's been on horseback and done what you've done better, there might be a couple of people who have done it as well. But nobody's ever done it better. And so what she taught me from that, and I'm grateful for that is that you have to find your niche. Right. So like, while I might not ever be Bob Costas, Bob Costas is also never going to be Donald Barton brothers. And so it's true riding on horseback is unique while you're reporting. And so I have to make sure that what I tried to make sure that I do is that the fact that I'm out there on horseback gives us a distinct advantage to be be able to report things that otherwise we wouldn't be able to report. Now, honestly, 80% of the time that I'm out there, it doesn't really matter. But that 20% When you've got somebody who can in a snap, be at the half mile, pull on the backside and report what's happening back here right now, or why there's a delay at the start, or talk to the jockey right after the race and capture that emotion before that emotion has time to go away. That's important to our broadcast to a great broadcast. And we have an amazing team of broadcasters, who all bring their own little niche to it. And so I just try to make sure that I bring my niche. That's great.

David Novak 12:28 

What leader in broad in the broadcasting business do you admire most and why?

Donna Barton Brothers 12:32 

Well, Tom Hammond was my mentor. So when I started with NBC, he lives in Lexington, Kentucky, he's born and raised in Kentucky, and he sort of took me in right away. And I remember, early on, I went to Tom and said, What do you think if I asked this question? And I told him the question, I can't remember what it is. And he just looked at me and said, You're gonna run the risk of your question and being a lot longer than the answer, shorten that down, and it'll work. So I've learned that, you know, it's not about me, and we've got to figure out the best way to get that person's personality and that person's answers to come through and, and bring that into people's living rooms. And Tom is still my go to guy if there's anything that I that I have questions about, I'll call Tom. And he's a great storyteller. And that's one of the things I learned from Tom is to be a

David Novak 13:20 

great storyteller. Tell us about your upbringing. Well,

Donna Barton Brothers 13:25 

my mother and father, were both involved with horses. In fact, before my mother was 19 years old, she had been a truck rider on the rodeo circuit, she had been an exhibition bull rider. She had been a card dealer on the blackjack table in Las Vegas, and she had been a semi truck driver, and she was my size five foot two. And that was before she was 19. And my father was a rough stock rider in the rodeo circuit. So they divorced when I was a year and a half old, but they were pretty eclectic and an of their own right. And so we grew up really in and around the horse business. My mother became a jockey. She was one of the first half dozen women to be licensed as such in the United States. That was 1969. And she won 72 races that year, which made her the leading female rider in the nation. And it was a distinction that she held throughout her entire career. And in fact, till she retired four years after she retired,

David Novak 14:16 

she was amazing trailblazer in in the sport, what what characteristics she possess that you think all leaders should have?

Donna Barton Brothers 14:26 

Well, it's, you know, I started as a jockey in 1987. This sounds like I've changed the subject, but I haven't. And in 1987, when people would say to me, do you feel like you're ever discriminated against because you're a female? I literally thought, people it is 1987. That doesn't happen anymore. And the reason why I really felt that way is because I grew up in a household with a mother who was the leading female writer in the nation. She started writing and was leading writer at small tracks in America, where women had not been writing I've been there three years prior, and now she's there and she's the leading writer. And if she ever was discriminated against for any reason, she certainly never gave it those words. So she might believe that maybe they're she's not good enough yet, or they don't know how good she is. But she never believed or gave discrimination of voice and I don't want to take that away from anybody who truly has been discriminated against. But growing up in that household, I just never saw any excuses for not succeeding. You know, if I got in trouble at school, or if I got in trouble with with a friend, Mom always blamed me. It was never the teacher. It was never the friend. It was always me. And so she's she taught us self responsibility, which I'm really, really grateful for. Because I think that sometimes that's not taught enough anymore.

David Novak 15:52 

Do you remember Donna when the first time was you got on a horse?

Donna Barton Brothers 15:55 

No. So I've written since my earliest memory, I remember the first time I got bucked off of a horse was that I think I was about four years old. And the only reason why I remember it, I still have a little scar on my upper lip and on my lid, and the only reason why I remember it is because I remember that I couldn't talk because my lips were so swollen. And everybody thought that was funny. Except for me. Of course.

David Novak 16:17 

Now you had your your siblings also in the race business as well, right.

Donna Barton Brothers 16:21 

So my sister was two and a half years older than me, she still is two and a half years older than me. And my brother is 360 days younger than I am. And they both were jockeys. My mother, again was a jockey. And all three of them had retired by the time I rode my first race, which was when I was 21 years old in 1987. And quite frankly, I rode my first race to eliminate that as a career choice, because at that point, I had been riding horses in the morning for four and a half years. My intent when I graduated from high school, was to go to college. But I graduated a year early, and I didn't really plan to graduate a year early, it just sort of worked out that way. I had my credits, and I couldn't do it. And so I did it. It also coincided with my mother marrying her fifth husband and I was just not ready for another husband. And so it was time for me to move on. And so I graduated early didn't really have that college plan yet. So I thought, well, I'll just gallop horses at the track, pay my way through college. And next thing you know, it's four and a half years later, I'm 21 years old, and I haven't gotten to college yet. And somebody offered me a job to come back to Kentucky, I was in Alabama at the time, offered me a job to come back to Kentucky and train horses for them. And I thought that would be challenging, and I love the horses. But I should probably ride one race and eliminate that as a career option before

David Novak 17:36 

What do you want to eliminate as a career option?

Donna Barton Brothers 17:38 

Well, people have been telling me to be a jockey for a long time. So I'd already had an agent who had been after me for a wild ride. And I was like, Oh, I don't think I want to do that. Now, I want to say part of the reason why I didn't think I wanted to do that is because again, my mother was the leading female rider in the world top that right. And so I wasn't so sure that I could be as successful as her. And I will say the one value that my mother instilled in all of us was she didn't care what we did for a living as long as we were the best at it. And she would say like, I don't care if you're a waitress just be the best waitress there. And so my thought was, I don't know if I can be the best jockey in the world when my mother was the leading female jockey in the world. So anyway, I wrote my first race. And you know, at that point in my life, I had probably watched 10,000 races, and my takeaway was, Oh, my God, not only is that the most exciting thing I've ever done in my life, it's the most challenging and so I had no idea how hard it was just from watching races or how exciting

David Novak 18:36 

well, how hard is it to be a jockey in in a male dominated sport?

Donna Barton Brothers 18:42 

Well, I've only ever been a female. So I don't know what it would be like to be a male in the sport. But I do know that being a jockey, you're on equal terms with all the other jockeys is, you know, the reason why women can become professional jockeys, as opposed to professional baseball players is because there is the weight assignment. So you don't want to weigh more than 112 pounds, ideally. And most women can't bulk up to 225 and be fit like a baseball player. So I think that's why they can ride on even footing with the men. But the thing that I realized in the first two months of writing is that I was not as strong as my my competitors were. And that was going to be something I needed to work on. And so I was a natural lightweight and I weighed 98 pounds when I wrote my first race, but I needed to bulk up. And so I started reading books. And what I learned is that a 21 year old female's body can turn anything into fat because it needs to prepare to have a baby. And a 21 year old male body can turn a Twinkie into muscle because it needs to do that as a provider. And so I learned how to trick my body into building muscle and not building fat and also the cardiovascular strength weightlifting, things like that. And once I got that element in place, which took me about a year, then I was able to compete equally with the guys and at that point, I could not Lift most of them and so there was no way that they could say I wasn't as strong they saw me at the gym.

David Novak 20:06 

I better be careful what I say to you here. So let me ask you a question. You know, boys wanted this as a jockey, you know, how deep does your connection go with the the horses that you ride?

Donna Barton Brothers 20:20 

That depends on the horse, David? And I think that is a great question. Because I think you know, a lot of people don't think about that. But it is, you are a team out there with your horse. And I often like to use the analogy of sort of like you're an army, but that's you're the general and the horse is your whole entire arm. And so it helps if that horse has a lot of skills, speed is a good skill to have. strength, stamina, those are all good skills to have. But the best skill for that horse to have is communication. And some horses are way more open to communication than other horses.

David Novak 20:54 

Now, tell me how a horse communicate with you.

Donna Barton Brothers 20:57 

So a horse communicates with the flick of the ears. And I'll give you a really good example. I wrote a horse named mushroom tee up at Arlington Park many years ago. And as soon as I got on the horse had never been on him before. And this was in a race I got on him. And in the warmup, I noticed that every time my hands were on his neck, he penned his ears flat back, which meant he did not like me touching his neck. And so I'd lift my hands up and his ears would go forward, put him back down, they went flat back and I thought Great, how am I gonna ride this horse without ever touching his neck? The horse was 20 to one. And you know, I figured that out about him in the in the post parade and in the warm up. And I managed to ride the race without touching his neck, just keeping my hands split apart. And we wanted odds of 20 to one. And it was because of that, that piece of information about him that he communicated to me, quite frankly. And also I was I was listening. Right. Yeah,

David Novak 21:46 

well, that's really interesting, you know, and I was going to ask you this question, but I think you answered it. Maybe you could give us a little bit more color on this. Is that it? Because it originally I thought this could be a silly question is but how do you motivate a horse?

Donna Barton Brothers 22:00 

Well, and that's the other thing is that some horses cannot stand to be touched with the whip, and other horses won't move unless you touch them with the web, right. And so anybody who's ever raised kids knows that some kids are sensitive, and some aren't. So sometimes you have a kid that you catch him doing something wrong, and you you you have to be careful not to go Ryan, because it'll scare him and any sensitive horses are the same way. So you just have to figure out with each horse, how much they want to be encouraged in some horses in my mother used to say this, I think one of the hardest things to do with the horses to get out of their way, because they truly do want to run and they truly do want to compete. But sometimes we we have to get out of their way a little bit and let them sort of navigate the ground.

David Novak 22:44 

You know that? I think Sam Walton said the most powerful way you can motivate people is truly to listen to him. It's very similar with with the horses it sounds like and getting to know each each horse individually, just like a leader should get to know each person that works for him individually know know what really makes him tick.

Donna Barton Brothers 23:01 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Actually, Gary Stevens used to write a film named Serena song for Wayne Lucas. And back at that time, I wrote a lot for Wayne Lucas. I would work during a song in the morning, but I had never written her in a race. And I noticed that every time he hit her, she would just like, her ears would go back and she would just shirk a little bit. And so I mentioned it to Wayne after Royce one day, and he watched the replay. And he told Gary never to hit her again. And Gary never hit her again. And she ran much, much better that way. You know,

David Novak 23:36 

it found that some horses really are leaders, you know, and that you just need to follow that horse.

Donna Barton Brothers 23:43 

Yes, absolutely. There's a lot of horses that sort of like leave the starting gate and go I have this, but there's also horses that are timid. And there are other horses, you know, horses that are just waiting for you to tell them what to do. But the horses that lead the starting gate going I have this for the horses, I got along with the best because I feel like one of the things that I did really well was I would get out of the way. So I knew when I was on a horse that was born later. And I would get out of the way and I might make suggestions like maybe we should slow down just a little bit. And if it was a suggestion, they would listen. But if it was a command, they would resent it. So yeah,

David Novak 24:22 

that's you know, that's another lesson and leadership there when you have really high talented people, you know, give them the room to run their race so they can really get the job done. Now speaking of you know races, you won in your career 1130 races, I believe. What ride do you cherish the most?

Donna Barton Brothers 24:41 

Oh, gosh, there were just so many. I mean, there were horses that won for $5,000 claiming price that meant as much to me as horses that one a $500,000 stake. But what I cherished the most was the horses that were the best community caters like that was the those were the horses that you fell in love with. Were the horses that you felt like you had a relationship with. And you were you had a very good understanding with my favorite horse probably was Hennessy. I won several races on him. One of them was the sapling steak in New Jersey. I ran second on him in the Breeders Cup juvenile, but he was 12 to one when he ran second and got beat by a horse named unbridled song who went on to be champion two year old. And so really the horses that I loved the most were the ones who communicated the most openly.

David Novak 25:32 

You mentioned you fell off a horse when you were four years old. You remember that? You know, horse range racing is a dangerous sport. How did you muster up the courage to really go out there and, and compete in such a dangerous sport?

Donna Barton Brothers 25:48 

Well, that was always the furthest thing from my mind, David, my mother, I heard her give that advice to many people when I was growing up, when they would say hey, my daughter wants a pony. What do you recommend, and my mother always said, the first thing that you have to understand if you're gonna ride horses is that they're gonna get hurt. So if you're okay with that, then I can finish but you need to be okay with that first. And so for me, it was just an indelible part of the occupation. That was an inconvenience, but not a deterrent. Actually, by the time I started writing in 1987, my mother had had a career ending bracing spill in 1984, in which she suffered many injuries, not the least of which was brain damage to the frontal lobe of her brain. She shattered her left job broke her left collarbone in two places, it came protruding through skin, she broke her right arm in half, she broke vertebrae, his ribs shattered her right hip. And so I was clearly aware of the dangers. But I guess the only the the only example I can give you is that when I did break my collarbone and had a concussion in one accident, my sister came to the hospital right after the doctor had delivered the news that in fact, it was going to have to be out six to eight weeks. And she walked in right as a terror was starting to go down my eye. And she walked in immediately concerned and said, Are you okay? Are you in pain? And I said, What am I going to do for the next six to eight weeks? And so that was always my concern is how Who am I if I'm not writing, so no, I wasn't deterred by that,

David Novak 27:16 

you know, as a failure. And looking back on your life as a failure or an apparent failure, ever really ended up setting you up for success?

Donna Barton Brothers 27:26 

Yes, one that comes to mind is I wrote a horse that Turfway park for Wayne Lucas, that was maybe the six to five favorite mean, and a very heavy favorite. And he ran second beaten and knows and I was fairly devastated. I don't know why I was so devastated by it looking back because it was made in rice. But you know, just like everybody, I mean, our wins and our losses are they mean something to us or we shouldn't be there. So it really, really upset me. And then he came back to run a month later at Churchill Downs. And it happened to be at a time when they were trying to decide on a rider for honor and glory for the Kentucky Derby who was owned by Michael Taber. Now, Michael Tabor is from England. And Wayne wanted me to ride honor and glory. But he had four other horses for the Kentucky Derby that year. And so Wayne rode me back on this horse that I'd gotten beat on RoadMate back on this horse Derby week. And at this point, he was 10 to one and he won by about two lengths. And it just felt like such a blessing. Like all the sudden in hindsight, I could see why he had to get beat that day. And what a blessing it was.

David Novak 28:36 

You mentioned Wayne Lucas, you were one of his favorite jockeys, and he's definitely a legend in the industry. How did you get to know him and what kind of leader is he?

Donna Barton Brothers 28:49 

Wayne is a phenomenal leader. First of all, is a phenomenal horseman, which probably makes him such a great leader and his forte of horse racing, because so many people admire him and respect him so much. He's very intuitive. He has I'd say he's half horse. He really understands the horses. Yeah, he understands the horses so well. And so when I first started working, so how did I start writing for Wayne? I won three races opening day at Canlan in the fall made it was the first time I'd ever written it. Any of the major tracks that Caitlin and this is gonna sound like I was the most egotistical little thing in the world. I was not so I'm just gonna preface that it just was what I felt like needed to be done. And so I had never met Wayne Lucas, but it was opening day at the candolyn fall made. I was on four horses I won three races which made me the leading rider because there was only one day so far. So the next morning I went by Wayne Lucas his barn, waited for him to finish up a conversation that he was having with his assistant trainer at the time, who's Todd Pletcher now and in a great trainer with national prominence. And so when they stopped talking, he sort of you know welcomed me over and I just extended my hand and said, Hello, Mr. Lucas. My name is Donna Barton. I want three races here yesterday, and I know that you are in the habit of writing the hot hand and right now that's me. So I was pretty sure you were gonna want to meet me. He said, Well, it's nice to meet you, Donna Barton. And I did write two horses for him that me but really the way that I got into his barn was just going by his barn day after day after day. And I would talk to him about his horses, people like to talk about what's important to them. And so I would watch his horses run the day before and say, Oh, wow, there was a tough break at the start. Yesterday, he got slammed by the two horse. And I would just talk about his horses. And essentially, he would talk about his horses, I would open up the door for it. And because he knew I would check by every morning, when the jockeys get on horses in the morning, it's really a service, you don't get paid to do that. It's just a complimentary service. And so every day, I would say, Do you need me this morning? And the answer was usually no. And then, you know, one day the jockey he has lined up to work, the horse isn't going to show up. And I know that's eventually going to happen. And so one day, he had me work a horse, and he saw that my report with horses was good. And I worked more horses and I started writing for him. And we had success together. And one of the things I learned about from Wayne, I worked almost all of his Derby horses for about three years there in the morning training. And I'd said the first year I started doing it, the media would be there after the horses worked, and they'd want to talk to Wayne about how they worked. And he said, You're going to talk to the media today. And I said, Okay, is there anything you'd like me to say? And he's and his exact words were no your message before you go out there. So you don't talk to the media, you talk through the media. And that was the first time I'd ever heard that. And so I learned from Wayne Okay, here's what I want to convey about this source and how it worked. And so no matter what they asked me, I'm going to make sure that I get that message out there. And I learned it from Wayne.

David Novak 31:53 

Yeah, you own a piece of this year's top horse justify. He's being trained by another legend that I know, you know, Bob Baffert? Can you tell us a little bit about Bob Baffert, leadership style? He, you know, he obviously, you see a lot of him on television do.

Donna Barton Brothers 32:13 

Yeah, well, you know, what you see from Bob Baffert on television is his one liners, and he's pretty much known for that, and he does have a good sense of humor. But I would say that Bob Baffert later leadership style is that he really surrounds himself with the best people in the business. He has the best grooms, he has the best exercise riders, he has the best assistant trainers, he pays them well. And he expects a lot from them. He expects an awful lot from them. But he also is not short with compliments. He you know, he'll often mentioned Jimmy Barnes, his top assistant and what a great job Jimmy's done with a particular horse or he might mention the exercise rider. And the people who are around him know that Bob's going to be successful. And so if they're with Bob, they're going to be successful. And an interesting add on to that is that the groom, who rubs in takes care of we say rubs but takes care of justify is the same groom that took care of American Pharoah and also took care of arrogates. And so that groom is originally from a Latino country of which I'm not aware of it see that, you know, Panama, Puerto Rico, Mexico. And so, he sent an awful lot of money home working for Bob Baffert in in he's a super nice guy, but he's also really good at what he does. And so Baffert surrounds himself with really good people. But the other thing that he does really, really well is he too, like Wayne Lucas, I would say is half horse and he does a lot of what he does on intuition. And so he might decide that a horse is going to run in a particular race, but then walk by that horses stall, not like the way he's standing, and then tell Jimmy, his assistant, Hey, Jimmy, I don't want to run him in that race. And he might not even say why. It's just he didn't like the way he was standing in his stall.

David Novak 33:59 

That's great. You know, as we do this podcast, justify as won the Derby and the Preakness and is readying for the Triple Crown. When you first saw justify, did you know that justify was a special horse and you at this point in time, do you think he'll win the Triple Crown?

Donna Barton Brothers 34:18 

Well, the first time I saw justify was on the television screen. Like most people, he had broke his maiden at Santa Anita easily, and I had heard this horse book is made and you need to watch the race. I went back and watched the race. And what I mean by broke is made for people who don't thank you. He won his very first race of his life, but it was also his debut. So it was his first start and his first one at the same time. And he did win the race impressively. But as we often say, in the industry, I didn't know what was behind him. So I didn't know if he actually beat anybody. And then he came back to win his next race, which was an allowance race. It wasn't a stakes race. And then when you ran in the third race, it was the Santa Anita Derby and I covered the Santa Anita Derby with NBC Sports. And that was when I went out to California. It was the first time I saw that horse in the flesh. And it's not until you see that horse in the flesh that he impresses you. And I think Wayne Lucas said it best. He said that the first time that he saw that horse in the flesh, he said he was looking down his shedrow in the morning, he was really liking the way his horses were looking. They were all dappled out, they were eating everything. They were feeling good running around the barn. And then he saw justify and went, What the hell do you do that? And Steve Asmus and said the same thing. He's just one of those physical specimens that when you see him in the flesh and in person, you realize that he has that it factor that nobody has ever been able to define?

David Novak 35:36 

Do you think he'll win the Triple Crown?

Donna Barton Brothers 35:38 

I'm reserving judgment until I see how he bounces back. So I'll watch him train at Churchill Downs within the next few days, then I'll watch him train again, when we're up in New York, and I'm there with the MVC people. And if he bounces back, I don't think there's any way he can lose the Triple Crown.

David Novak 35:53 

Tell us the keys. Yeah. And you're deeply involved in the thoroughbred business, you know, tell us the what's the key to to being really successful in that business. What are the big drivers?

Donna Barton Brothers 36:02 

Well, first of all, your name has to mean something. And so you have to establish credibility. In this sport. Everything is by word of mouth. We don't sign contracts with almost anything. agents don't sign contracts with their jockeys, jockeys, don't sign contracts with the trainers, trainers don't sign contracts with the owners. And so your word has to matter. And so first of all, your word has to be impeccable. Secondly, your reputation has to be impeccable. And so I think that's one of the reasons why people are in this business for a while before they have any real success because they have to get to a point where they have some credibility, some some history behind them that says you can count on this person. And the other thing is you have to figure out how to win. When I had my apprenticeship. I was riding at Rockingham park and I flew to Monmouth Park, or I'm sorry, Meadowlands dry erase. And Julie crone who was had just passed my mother's record two weeks before that was riding there at the time. And she met me and said, Do you want to know how to win races, and I said, of course, and she said ride for people who win races. And while that sounds really easy, it's not your first thought. Because as a jockey, it's really easy to get into somebody's barn. If they're not winning races, they're looking to make some changes. But it's hard to get into the barn of somebody who's already winning races, they don't need to change anything. And so you have to figure out a way to get on the same page with that person to develop a rapport with that person to impress that person enough for them to say, Okay, I'll give you a chance. And that is really the secret to success in this business is to surround yourself with successful people and figure out or figure out how to be with people who have figured out how to win. Yeah,

David Novak 37:38 

you know, I've learned that you've, you've become very passionate about giving to those that are less fortunate than you, you know, how do you give back to society and or the community? What do you what do you do? And why are you Why do you? Why is that turning you on now?

Donna Barton Brothers 37:55 

Well, um, you know, I went through another crisis a few years ago, several actually years ago. And I thought, you know, what I'm doing isn't important. I'm not saving lives. I'm not feeding hungry children. I'm not doing anything to change the world. And I just felt like very unimportant. And then all of a sudden, I realized that, I'm going to use a unique position to number one, entertain people, I mean, they turn on the TV to be entertained, and a lot of people have lives that they need to break away from. And so if the only thing that we do that is entertaining, that's great. But if we can also inspire people, and if we can also empower people, then we've done a lot of good things on that day. So yes, we will inform some but mostly we want to entertain, empower, inspire. So I realized that if I could do those three things for people, then I am improving lives. Now take that one step further. For whatever reason, people on television get credibility, whether they deserve it or not, but it also opens doors for me. And so it's also helped me to do a lot of fundraising for the backside Learning Center at Churchill Downs, where you have employees back there who work seven days a week, they really dedicate their lives to the horses, but they don't have a lot of resources, they don't have, first of all, they don't have a lot of money because even though they do make good money, they send a large portion of their money back home for people who, you know, they have large families back there who aren't necessarily able to get the kind of jobs that they have. And so a lot of their money goes back home to their families. And so, the back side Learning Center, we provide Spanish second language, English second language labs. We have a lab, computer lab in there, we've got aren't classes. We've got a path to citizenship classes. So banking classes, so we have all sorts of resources for them. But the one that probably touches me the most is Mary Hurst because these girls at Mercyhurst are aged 11 to 19. And by the time they get to marry Hurst here in Louisville, they've usually been through an average of five failed foster home placements, the average grade for them or I should say equivalent of their grade. It's fourth grade. So they come, they're maybe 13 years old with something that's the equivalent of a fourth grade education. And so Mary hers really gives these girls an opportunity to change their lives. And so I do yoga there one day a week I teach yoga at at Mary Hearst. And it just gives me a chance to be able to be involved with the girls lives. And more than that, I think it it makes sure that the girls have a steady presence in their life. I show up once a week, I'm always there. And they can always talk to me if they wanted to. I do mentor one of the girls who's 11 years old, and have been our mentor for about a year. And yeah, it's just nice to be able to be a good influence. I

David Novak 40:38 

really love how you give your personal time. That's, that's a lot different than just giving out the money.

Donna Barton Brothers 40:43 

Well, when I went to Mary Hearst, I said, I would like to be involved with the girls that don't want to be on your board, I will donate money. But that's I want more than that. I want to be involved with the girls. And so we worked out the yoga, that's great,

David Novak 40:54 

good for you. You've also written I don't know, I'm talking about all these things you've done, you got a pretty busy life here. But you've also written a terrific book that I really enjoyed inside track the inside guide to horse racing. Tell us the story behind that book.

Donna Barton Brothers 41:10 

Well, when I started the work I do for NBC Sports. One of our producers names is Rob Highland, and I know his mother and Highland, even though I've never met her, because Rob always says, you're talking to my mother and Highland, I don't want to hear that the horses went and 22. And two, nobody knows what that means. This is my mother and Highland. So if you're going to say they went 22, and two, you have to say the horses went very fast for the first quarter of mile in 22. And two. And so it wasn't really until I started working for NBC Sports and had to really figure out the way that I was going to say things that made it inclusive for everybody, that I realized just how inside a lot of the lingo that we have is and so I thought there needs to be a book that just simplifies this, where people could just like turn to a chapter. And if they wanted to know more about jockeys read that if they want to know how to bet the races read that if they want to know what to wear to the track, read that. And so I think I'd said that for about five years before finally, I was like, nobody's gonna write this book. So I'm gonna have to write it. So I wrote the book, it came together very easily. And the biggest compliment that I ever got was when Mike Tirico started doing the broadcast with us, he told me that he got my book, and he still keeps it in his briefcase anytime he might need the glossary of terms. So that makes me feel good, because Mike Tirico, I believe is one of the best broadcasters in sports. So

David Novak 42:28 

we always give it out to our our Derby guests as well. Thank you for that, you know, as as as a journalist, what do you think of the of the me to movement? And how have you seen it really impact the broadcast industry?

Donna Barton Brothers 42:43 

Well, I think people are more careful now. And I'll give you an example. I had somebody send me an email the other day that I thought was off color, and I thought should not have been sent. And it was somebody who was an older white male, who I've known for a very, very long time. And I thought about just hitting Delete. And instead I replied, This isn't cold. And I just figured I would see what he said. And so he emailed me back, and he said, I'm sorry, if I offended you. And I said, I'm gonna be honest with you that humor is for, I call that what was it old, in parentheses, white boy humor. And it's not funny to people like me, and it never has been. And it's time that we say that. And I would have been remiss not to but for the record, I still like you, I just don't like this kind of humor. And that's what it's done. It's made people like me, because I don't think I would have done that before the me to movement, I think I would have just hit delete and gone. Like, that's not funny, but just hit delete. And I think it's made people like us now stand up and go, Wait a second, just so you know, that's not funny. And I'm not gonna laugh. And you probably shouldn't say something like that. And so, you know, in, I think, at NBC, since I've been there, they've always been, and I've been there since 2000. They've always been very conscientious of how they treat their employees. And so I don't think that it's changed my work at NBC, or even the way we do our broadcast, but it's changed me I think for the better

David Novak 44:08 

now. That's great. It's empowered you to really speak out. Yeah, and take a stand, which is saying, which is fantastic. You know, you're obviously a leader, you've you've really, you know, sought out different careers and then tried to be best at it. You know, how are you honing your leadership skills today? Well,

Donna Barton Brothers 44:27 

one of the things I did was read taking people with you, but David Novak, which I thought was a really well written book, and I enjoyed it. But one of the things I do often is I do workshops, or I guess I could call them retreats or events, but I've been to several Tony Robbins events. I've been to several Deepak Chopra events. And really, I've realized that the only thing that any of us can do truly is lead by example. And so I go to all these events to make myself a better person and so that I can lead by example, and For me, I have, as I've already mentioned, I only have one employee, and she's very good. So she doesn't need a whole lot of guidance. But I have seven nieces and nephews, and I have a brother and a sister and have lots of friends. And what matters the most to me is when people say, you know, I made this choice today, because of you, I thought of you and I made this choice. And so if I just continue to lead by example, then I think that that will do a lot. And I think we can all get

David Novak 45:29 

done. And you always talk about I've heard you say it a few times in this podcast that you only have one person, but you're you're dealing with hundreds of people, you're dealing with all kinds of different people and that you have to apply your your leadership skills. So leading by example with them I'm sure inspires or what did you say? You try to inspire? Engage? Empower? Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that.

Donna Barton Brothers 45:51 

And one of the things by the way, my mentor Tom Hammond taught me was one of the very first shows we did, he asked me, What's that runners name? Now the runners on our shows, are sort of the gophers. And I said, I don't know, I'm not sure I ever knew her name. And he said, I think her name is Julia. And so I realized that to Tom Hammond, who was kind of the leader, it was important to him to know, the runners name. So it should probably be important for me to learn all their names, too. And so that's also helped me a lot in in just feeling like we have a cohesive group.

David Novak 46:21 

As we kind of wrap this up here, you know, what would be your three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders?

Donna Barton Brothers 46:27 

I guess the very first thing is to work on your leadership, because it wasn't until I started doing things like reading your book, quite frankly, I'm not just saying that because you're here reading your book, taking people with you during the Tony Robbins things that I realized that there were places where I was missing. And I think it's, you know, you get into a position sometimes of leadership without ever having been taught how to be a leader, like some people become parents without ever having read a parenting book. And so it helps to get those kinds of workshops, or read those sorts of books, so you can see how it affects you. And I guess the second thing I would say, is to be a good example, because you're gonna have to lead by example, people will remember what you did. They all maybe remember what you said, but they will certainly remember what you did. And I guess the third thing is, is work hard.

David Novak 47:17 

It's kind of hard to substitute putting the time in to really be great at what you do. Exactly. Yeah, Donna, you're you're absolutely amazing person and you bet you're having an amazing career. And you just, you know, you sit there tell they have one person that works for me. It's obviously that you cast a wide net, and you're making a big difference in the world. And I really appreciate you sharing your many insights with us that during this time, so thank you very much.

Donna Barton Brothers 47:44 

Thank you, David. And I appreciate the wide net that you've cast as well. Thank you. Thanks.

David Novak 47:57 

Well, that was an absolutely fascinating inside view of the racing industry. Isn't it interesting that Donna believes that the key to winning horse races depends on a jockeys ability to listen to what the horse is actually communicating. What does that horse really need to be encouraged? What makes that horse tick? What does that horse hate? Well, when you think about it, there's so many parallel learnings that we can take from horse racing, and apply as leaders. So here's some coaching for you this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. Think about your team. What motivates each team member individually? How do they like to communicate? What kind of recognition do they value? Great leaders know how to answer these questions, and they know that the answers are different for every person they lead. Dive into these questions, and I know that you'll be able to lead your people to victory as well. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that the great leaders know what motivates each team member. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be