David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Kara golden, the CEO and founder of hint water, which is the leading brand for unsweetened flavored water. Now, it may surprise you to learn that Carol founded this company having really no experience at all in the beverage industry. It all started because she wanted to swap her diet soda for water, but found that drinking plain water just was really boring. So she created a whole new product category that disrupted the beverage industry and helped a lot of people live healthier lives. Kara has so much tenacity and courage for her. Her lack of experience in the industry was just an obstacle she needed to tackle nothing more. If there's something she's afraid of or unfamiliar with. She just takes it head on. When we see fears and obstacles as opportunities to grow. Well sure enough, that's just what they become. It's the kind of perspective all leaders need. And you're going to learn a ton in this conversation, including how she got a killer deal on Superbowl airtime. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Kara golden.

Thanks so much for taking the time to be with us.

Kara Goldin 1:35 

Thank you for inviting me very excited.

David Novak 1:38 

You know, Kara, I can't wait to dig into your story. But first, I saw that in InStyle magazine recognized you as a top 50 badass female leader. What's it take to be a badass leader?

Kara Goldin 1:51 

It's a great question. Right? So I'm just living my life. And, and actually, I was able on my podcast to interview Laura Brown, who is the editor. And so I asked her that question as well. And, and I think she said it, she summed it up quite nicely, which was just actually just going out and doing it and trying and living undaunted. So I that that's it?

David Novak 2:18 

Well, you know, you've certainly done that. And I love to get inside of the heads of leaders and learn how think learn how you think, you know, how in the world did you decide to to, to launch a flavored water brand.

Kara Goldin 2:31 

So I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, because I never planned on being an entrepreneur. And it's always easier to look back in history and sort of see that I had kind of the makings of an entrepreneur. But I prior to launching hint and starting hint, I was a tech executive. I ran AOL e commerce and shopping partnerships for seven years. And prior to that I actually worked for a little startup that was a Steve Jobs idea from Apple that was doing CD ROM shopping. And then my first jobs were actually at time and then I went on to CNN. So working for CNN, when Ted Turner was still running around the office and screaming and making sure that stuff got done and that CNN was getting started was pretty interesting time and definitely a very different environment than what I had worked at inside of time. And then when I moved to Silicon Valley, as I said, I worked for the startup that was, it wasn't four guys in a garage. But it was four guys in a small office that were very different culturally, but also an environment of, we don't really know what way we're going. We're just going and ideas can come from anywhere. And we were acquired by America Online, which I was there during a time when it was truly a hockey stick of a company. And when I finally decided to leave, that's when, you know, I'll share this with you. And you probably will appreciate this that it was when the United airline pilots all knew my name when I was getting on the flight from San Francisco to go out east. I felt like that's just not normal. Like does everybody else do people get on flights? And the pilot says, Hey, Kara, how's it going? I need help with your luggage. I it just was just a different thing. And I had three kids at home under the age of four. I have four kids now. But for me, it was really a kind of a time when when it was 2001. I felt like everybody. Lots of stuff was going on in the Bay Area. I had this great experience. I had done great things, but I wanted to do it a little more local. And so while I was going through this period of time, it had been a couple of years I was interviewing with some different tech firms. I felt like I didn't necessarily want to do another tech job now. because I didn't like it, but because I thought is that my destiny is is it to stay in tech, I mean, I liked it, and I enjoyed it, but I couldn't really define it. And I'll get back to that in a minute. But what I could define was that I just didn't feel like I was as healthy as I want it to be, I'd gained a bunch of weight over the course of multiple years, and clearly through my pregnancies, but I also had developed terrible adult acne and my energy levels were a lot lower than they had ever been. And that's when I started to try some diet plans. I'd never done any dieting per se. I'd also started reading labels on food, and really trying to get cleaner about what I was putting into my body. And then basically was, you know, counting calories and trying to go through this whole process, and nothing was working. And I got to a point where I ultimately gave up and said, you know, this is never going to happen, I guess I'm just not meant to kind of be who I used to be, and get healthier. And that's when I looked down at my drink. And I realized that there were a lot of ingredients in my drink that I didn't really know what they were. And I had been applying everything, these principles to the food, but not to the drinks. And that's when I decided to do this tiny test. I guess the tech side of me said, let me just test it and see exactly what is going on. And I gave up my diet soda Diet Coke in particular, and put it to the side and started drinking water. And two and a half weeks later, after going cold turkey, no more Diet Coke, I lost 24 pounds, my energy level came back. And also my skin cleared up. And so then I really just started looking at Gosh, why is that? I mean, why did I Why was I able to change health just by eliminating something that I was drinking, no one had talked to me about drinking, right, everybody was talking to me about eating. And so about a year of sort of living this way. That's when I was shopping at this new store that came in to San Francisco called Whole Foods. It was beautiful. Everything was pretty and everything tasted better. And that's when I just happened to ask the guy stocking the shelves, what it would take to actually get a product launched, and the store and it was my curiosity. I was I was just I was so excited by what I was, you know, potentially doing?

David Novak 7:52 

But did you have your idea for your product? No, I didn't even did you say hey, it's gonna be like, I want to just launch any product or

Kara Goldin 8:00 

Well, well, so I had been drinking water. But then I started slicing a fruit and throwing it into the water to get myself to enjoy water because what I realized at home was that drinking water was boring. And so if I could get find a way to get myself to drink water, then you know, that would be the way to do it just by throwing some fruit in it. And what I was surprised about when I went to look for this product in the market to purchase frankly, was that everything had sweeteners in it. This new drink had come out fairly recently, it was new to me called vitamin water, which I'm sure you're familiar with and vitamin water.

David Novak 8:41 

I have one right here so

Kara Goldin 8:43 

well we'll have to swap that out at some point, right. But

David Novak 8:47 

oh, I also have hit right here too. Okay, I've got a boat.

Kara Goldin 8:51 

But it was interesting because the because vitamin water back 16 years ago, there wasn't even a diet version of Vitamin Water and friends of mine would drink vitamin water. Again, my thing was Diet Coke. But friends would drink vitamin water. And they would tell me how healthy it was because it had vitamin and it was water. And then I'd share with them that there was as many calories in a vitamin water as a can of Coke. They were like what I didn't even look at the label. I'm not reading ingredients. Why should I it's as vitamin water. And that's when I really realized that the decks are kind of stacked against consumers to actually find health, even the ones that are willing to shop at fancy grocery stores or, you know, just really research products. It's hard. It's really hard. And so the net of it for me was this product started out of me seeing that just by simply changing to water that tasted better. I got healthy. And in addition from a career standpoint I, what I thought was most interesting when I was leaving Tech, I felt like I had been in this hockey stick. But now I was kind of the company was kind of plateauing and 2001. And, you know, huge acquisition of Time Warner at all my former companies rolling up into one, my husband was at Netscape that was getting rolled in as well. And I felt like I wasn't learning as much as I want. And part of what I talked about in my book, and I think you could totally attest to this, is I really think the secret to life and to really staying engaged is to be learning. Right and and so as as crazy as it sounded, to me and even to friends that were telling me you should go get a job at Google and, and you should go do all these things in tech. It just it wasn't, I didn't feel like I was gonna learn something new.

David Novak 10:56 

You're basically though you've gone to into your own kitchen, you've concocted your own little recipe, you put you slice up the fruit, the water, then you go to Whole Foods and ask them, what would it take to get in there? And then you say, Okay, I'm gonna give it a shot, you had to have a lot of people say, you can't do this. You're sure. How'd you muster up the courage to go ahead?

Kara Goldin 11:18 

I think what I kept reminding myself of was the fact that if I really believed that I had done a good job to date with my career, that I would be okay. If I went back to that, like, just because I was going and starting a company, I almost played it out in my head to say, Okay, I decided to take a couple of years off and go and start this beverage company. And it didn't work out. I thought, if nothing else, I'll be a great dinner guest right. But it but it actually, I more than anything, I felt like, as long as I was learning something new, and again, all my friends were intact. I mean, I would talk to them about did you know that? distributors, or here's a better one that you'll totally appreciate this, this little thing that most people I know, I called it a cap. That's called a closure in the beverage industry, right? So because I didn't know that there was all this vocabulary and language that existed. It just was this whole new world that opened up for me. And so I always share with entrepreneurs that felt like I was taking a big risk or, you know, ones that are concerned that, you know, they may be going and doing something a little bit crazy. I'm like, Look, as long as you believe what you've done to date is good stuff, then you shouldn't be that worried. You know,

David Novak 12:46 

how did you come up with the hint, brand name? Did you develop that yourself? Or did you have someone on the outside help you.

Kara Goldin 12:52 

So my original name for this company was Wawa. So as my husband said, you've been hanging out with the kids way too long, trying to get them to drink water. And hello, when I came up with this idea, and he's an intellectual property attorney, and was, you know, full disclosure did not think this was the smartest idea that I came up with, and was trying to kind of convince me to do something else because he knew I was really marketable and tech and, and when I said to him, okay, so it's this unsweetened flavored water. I mean, this is an you'll totally appreciate this. This is, before I had, I decided that I was going to launch a product and accompany but what I didn't know was that this was an entirely new category. So that so as I share with people, it's one thing to launch a company. That's like climbing a mountain to launch a new category that's climbing Everest, right? You're you've got to educate the buyers, the consumers there. I mean, I had tons of people saying to me, wait, it's an unsweetened flavored water. So what's the sweetened with? Right? It was a whole new language. And and there were so many problems on, and it just took time, not only for the consumer, to really catch on to it, but also for the buyers. So there was no room in the planogram. I mean, there were so many issues along the way. But But anyway, so the the name. So I had this idea. And I said it'll be called, it'll be called Wawa, because that's how I was getting my kids to drink water. I'd say Here have some Wawa. Remember, I'm like, at this point, I have three kids that are four. I'm like living it. I don't have a job. I'm in it. Right? And so that's when my husband said, Okay, I know you're not going to listen to me anyway. But just don't call it Wawa because there's this like little company in Pennsylvania and they will crush you and it will not go far at all if you if you decide to do that. So I grew up in the west and my husband grew up in New York and so he was very familiar with it and he was just like, Okay, so my husband you know, Right pressuring me at this point, don't, you know don't call at Wawa. First of all, you're not going to get a trademarked and then as I was describing it to him, I said, Look, we're getting in people's hands, blah, blah, blah. It's got a hint of flavor. I was like, can't. And he said four letter words, you'll never get it give up. And I, I said, Well, okay, but also, by the way, you need to just file this trademark right now. And while you're at it, two more things, one file, drink water, not sugar came up with that one just really, really fast. He said, like, you'll never get drink water, not sugar trademark, we have hand and drink water, not sugar trademark throughout the world. And then, and then I also dropped the next bomb on him, which was that I was pregnant with our fourth child. And I was almost three months pregnant. So three months pregnant with our fourth launching a business and a industry I had no experience with, like, why not? Why Why not go do it. And, again, he wasn't gonna argue with me, he just he said, Look, you've made some money at AOL. You can go do whatever you want. I don't think it's a great idea. And I said, terrific, where you go with me to this bottling plant in Chicago that I had found, I'd researched and it was a female founded company. And I said, I'm going to get on the plane tomorrow. And I think he was a little nervous, because I was taking $50,000 out of our bank account. And he was like, she can spend money like no one else. So I'm going with her on this flight to go and see what's going on. But I think it was when the bottles were actually rolling off the line, that he really realized what I was talking about that obviously, these categories were pretty big diet, soda, enhanced water. And ultimately, there was there was nobody doing what I was doing. Still, I mean, we're the leader in this category, and one of the only ones in this category. But in addition, it was it was really filling the space that seemed so obvious to me, which was people knew they had been told to drink water for years, but they just don't do it. And so then they stop at these diet drinks and and healthier and better for you healthy perception things. And I felt like if there could be this new category, people could come there, that maybe they're never going to get to me to water, but maybe they will. And even today, as we've sold this into stores over the years, I mean, we've actually seen that we don't take away from playing water sales, we actually take away from soda, and enhanced water and some of these healthy perception drinks, because that consumer is trying to get healthier. And if those things aren't working, that's what they need. They need something that tastes good, that's just going to help them know that they can do it. And that's been hint,

David Novak 18:03 

you know, all leaders seem to be looking to drive purpose into everything that they do with their company, you know, how do you communicate your mission to your team and your customers.

Kara Goldin 18:14 

So make it as simple as possible, right, so that everybody can articulate it. And that's why, you know, from day one, like I said, it was really this mission to really help me drink water, because I didn't like the taste of water and, and then that's expanded, I think, to really be about helping people get healthier. And it's interesting, because even in building out the team, the people that have really been the long term, great employees are the ones that didn't necessarily have beverage experience, they actually had a life event where we have multiple cancer survivors and our team, we have people who actually worked at some of the big soda companies, but maybe left and then did something else, because they just didn't believe that there was a mission behind it. And so I think that hiring the right people who actually want health and who are, you know, really under the same understanding that I came to, which is it's hard for people and so so I think that engaging those, those people with a very simple statement around helping people get healthier, helping people drink water, are, are really the key things but also really hiring people who believe in it. I don't think there's people say how do you prevent people from drinking? You know, Red Bull, like, around the office? Not at all. I mean, people just don't do it, right. It's just not I mean, it's just not how they're living. And and also, I pee People, it's fascinating to I mean, the company is based out of San Francisco. So a lot of people have asked me, How do you recruit and in a place that is so dominated by tech, there's a lot of people who maybe just don't feel like there's a mission there for them that they had, like me a great gig going, but then they want to really get behind something that has purpose and has meaning. And so it's actually been, we've hired people from Facebook, from Google, from lots of different companies that just, you know, it's a life decision for them to actually come and join us,

David Novak 20:37 

you've obviously had rapid growth, and you're doing extremely well. And, and I understand you had the incredible high of getting, you know, nationwide distribution of Starbucks, only to later basically get discontinued at Starbucks, even though your product was selling well. But your margins were lower. So, you know, that's got to be tough to handle. Tell us what you learned from that experience.

Kara Goldin 21:06 

So we get into Starbucks. And that was high day, right in the in the timeline, of course, 11,000 stores were, we went in really knowing that that there's a goal, right, it's not just about getting in, but it's actually staying in. And so we learned that the goals were sell a bottle and a half per store per day, throughout the country, it took us six months to kind of get there. But we were then selling three times that by the end of six months, and then into the next year and a half. So I'm feeling pretty confident as the CEO of a company and making sure that my largest customers super happy. And then a new buyer comes into Starbucks gives us a call and says, Hey, I just want to introduce myself. And you know, we've been really happy with the relationship. And unfortunately, we're changing direction. And we're going to bring food into the case that has higher ring higher margins, all of this snapping against you guys. The challenge with that conversation is that I then realized that 40% of my business was sitting in the hands of someone else to make this decision. While I, I realized that this was a business decision that probably made sense for Starbucks business, it didn't make sense for my business at all. And I had all this inventory in the warehouse, and I didn't festers, and my inventory was gonna go bad. In the next couple of months, I had to figure out what to do. And so that was a moment where it was bad. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it was like it was it was horrible. But at that point, I really figured out the reason I cared so much about it was that I was kind of hung up on the idea of having this partnership with this great brand, which is great, right? But the reason I cared is that it was 40% of my overall business. So I was not diversifying. I was like 40%. I mean, it's crazy, right? And so, about two weeks later, luckily, I'm still trying to figure out what to do with the inventory. And I'm sharing some of this information with our investors. That's when an email came from an Amazon buyer and they had their grocery business going, it was they were really sort of testing it at this point. And the grocery buyer said, Hey, I really I love BlackBerry hint. And I buy it all the time at Starbucks when I go get my coffee in the morning. And I didn't know if I had the I didn't have the courage to actually share with him that we were getting kicked out of there. But he said, What is the lead time to actually get this product? So I'd love to get you guys in as soon as possible. And I said, Well, you know, I happen to have a couple of truckloads of product if you if you want to buy it and wire the money in. And so I was able to kind of figure out exactly what to do with that product. But the interesting thing is what he shared with me was that Starbucks was the place that actually allowed him to see and taste our product. And so I always look at that story as one where when challenges happen, maybe it's failures, however you want to look at it, you did the wrong thing, right? Or maybe you did the right thing, but somebody else had the power to actually make a decision on you. Amazon probably wouldn't have happened. If Starbucks wouldn't have happened. I will never know for sure. But but that is where the dots eventually always connect. And today, I'll go further on that where over 50% of our overall business is direct to consumer. And so That goes back to that Starbucks story. Because if we wouldn't have been on Amazon and learned what we learned about our consumer wanting to buy online, we wouldn't have had the courage to ultimately launch our direct to consumer business, which, again, is is such a major part today.

David Novak 25:18 

So that Starbucks decision was, you know, a tough one. But you overcame it, and it took in a different direction. And speaking of of decisions, what would be the most difficult decision you've had to make recently? And what was? What's the process you use to make decisions?

Kara Goldin 25:36 

Well, I would say, managing during this pandemic is probably a, you know, I don't know if it was the most difficult decision as much as as it was such a difficult time, right. So I look at, I remember in March, when we were watching about 15%, of our overall business, not 40. But it was still a big chunk of our business is done through or was done through offices. So we became the largest beverage and tech at Google, Facebook, and then that spread across the country to a lot of their offices, and then other offices. And so when offices closed down, that business went away. And so we made some very, very big predictions, including the fact that offices would probably be closed for the remainder of the year, I remember my CFO saying to me, there's no way that officers are going to be close for the till the remainder of the year. And I said, well, then we'll be wrong, right? Well, we'll make the best decisions today based on what we know, and what we project. And I mean, if we're wrong, then it'll just be additional revenue. But it was at that point, when we knew that we could control our direct to consumer business, we had a mailing list of well over a million consumers who were buying from us. And so we put all of the money, including some of the people that we had working on the foodservice corporate foodservice business into different roles throughout the company. But basically, that was a huge decision. Because we, I mean, we were doing it at a time when I remember reaching out to Facebook saying, We want ads, we want to drive a lot of traffic into our direct to consumer business. And I remember the ad salesperson at Facebook saying, have you guys gotten the memo? There's a pandemic right now. Everybody is like canceling their their advertising buys right now. And we said, No, we want to go forward. I mean, we believe that there's going to be disruption in the retail store business, and we need to be able to offer an option for consumers to be able to buy direct to their home, and that business has tripled since March tripled.

David Novak 28:05 

You know, you make a lot of big decisions. And another one that I know you made is and even though I know us, you still act like a startup company, even though you're you have over $100 million in sales was you see huge, you know, you made the decision to go on the Superbowl and do a Superbowl ad. Now for my old days and marketing that that's I think now it's like $5 billion for 30 seconds. Tell us the backstory of how you made that decision.

Kara Goldin 28:35 

Crazy decision. So having been at CNN and and really back in the days when it was kind of all hands on deck, I learned a lot about local versus national buys. So we did not pay 5 million. I ended up re connecting with an old friend that I worked with at CNN who actually was working for one of the big networks, not Fox, which was actually handling the Superbowl. And I just happened to connect with her. And I said do you think there's any inventory we just created this ad that I think is like a Superbowl ad we haven't used it yet. But I'm just curious maybe in last minute national deal, we'll you know, jump in, we don't really care. But if it worked out, we'd be super excited about it. So she connected me with with Fox, they of course didn't have any but the guy that I talked to said, you know, you might be able to find some in the regions and there's multiple regions and so I went and with my team and reached out to the regions and it was crazy. We bought 80% of the country for less than a million dollars. Wow. Which Which is crazy. Right? And so and and I'll tell you the one unexpected piece of that is like we were I mean we felt like you know we we got the bargain of the year right like we had been to the flea market and got Got the got the gold we were all really excited when when the ads actually ran and again, the way that regional stuff runs is that they they tell you roughly it'll run within like 20 minutes of the halftime so, you know you can be we thought a will probably be 20 minutes from the halftime which you know, maybe we're not going to we ended up being right next to the halftime It was so good. It was unbelievable. But our team saw that they were working at a company who ran a Superbowl ad and they were so proud they're all at the Super Bowl parties and you know, texting me saying yeah all my friends are like you ran a Superbowl ad like it's like the underdog right shows up and runs and and everybody from you know lots of people I've met some of the people that you mentioned earlier on that our mutual friends I mean, texting me just say to cheat us run a Superbowl ad. I can't believe this like little hint go hand.

David Novak 31:04 

Right? Like what happened here? What happened to your sales and awareness? Did you see an immediate impact on something like that?

Kara Goldin 31:10 

We did. I mean, we saw it was interesting, I felt I thought that it would actually impact a lot of the direct to consumer business but it was a lot more in stores and also with buyers. I mean a lot of buyers were reaching out to us the next week saying I saw your your ad and way to go and and that's really incredible. And so it was it all the way around. I mean it was such a great great time and and I didn't know my phone could get that many texts at the same time. I my phone got hot actually got it. I have a picture of it. It like heated because I had gotten so many texts.

David Novak 31:52 

Well, it takes courage to get a hot phone like that. I know a lot of that now, now you've written your own book. It's called undaunted, overcoming doubt and doubters. It's it's a great read and it but you know, what made you write it and what do you hope to accomplish? You know, did you and did you have any concerns about people saying, oh my god, she is now an egomaniac? I've written a few books myself, but I don't know if people think that about me. But oh my gosh, you know, it? How did you overcome all those little, little inner dragons that could maybe keep you from doing it?

Kara Goldin 32:28 

So I watched your I plan on writing a book, and I have friends that it's been on their bucket list for years, that wasn't me, I was a journalism major. So maybe it looked like I was too Yeah, gonna write it. And so but for me, it was a journal for the last four years, and I was doing a ton of public speaking and on how I built the company, but also just being a female entrepreneur, I was doing a lot. And And finally, I felt like when I would go out and speak about both of those things, people would the q&a at the end, you would always hear people talking about their question, almost as I'm not like you because you're a risk taker, you're really bold, you've never had failures, you've never had fears. And I think at one point, I just didn't feel right, like actually owning this person that I really wasn't at all. And so I would talk about a failure like the Starbucks situation, or one of the others along the way how I had no experience, I had no idea what I was doing, I had been successful in this other thing. But now all of a sudden, I'm I'm learning this whole new language and trying to figure out exactly how this whole thing works. But the thing that I am, is super curious. And that I'm okay with failure. And then I'm that I try and, and everyone who knows me knows that I give it my all to go and do something. And so you can say all that about me. But don't say just that I'm a risk taker, and then I'm lucky or whatever it is, like I you I'm gonna go out and and figure out a way to ultimately crushed the wall, get around it, whatever in order to get the stuff done. And, and now when I look deeper, about two years ago, I felt like I could really help a lot more people who maybe aren't fortunate enough to be able to go to my talks, or sometimes I'm speaking internally at a company and you know, those people can't hear these things. And, and so I thought maybe I should just bind a lot of my journal and notes together. And then finally a friend said you should really talk to my agent and then we ended up selling it to and working with Harper on this who've been terrific. And more than anything, I want people to know that being an entrepreneur is a lot of hard work, and it's a it's a life choice, right to actually go out and try, but it definitely satisfies curiosity, if you don't have any experience and this idea that you have that maybe you want to go start a company, it's possible, I did it, it's also possible to go start a company with four kids under the age of six, it's maybe it'll take you longer, maybe you've got sort of, it's it's a road that has bends in it, it's not a straight line. But more than anything, it doesn't just and with you being a unicorn or a failure, right, all the stuff in between that goes on, I feel is where the learnings are, and and what people ultimately need to hear. And that was the key reason why I wanted to get this book out there. antastic

David Novak 35:48 

you don't? I saw that. John Legend endorsed your book and is a big backer of the brand itself. And he's a great coach on The Voice. Has he given you any coaching?

Kara Goldin 36:02 

Well, actually, John was so funny. When I asked him to do the blurb on the book, I gave him the preview of the book. And and he said, just so you know, I'm not going to give you a blurb. He's a friend of mine as well. But he said, I'm not going to give you a blurb unless I liked the book. And that was a scary 30 days that I gave him. I'm I'm like what it was John Legend doesn't like my book. But it was funny because he read the book and and he said, I kept thinking, you know, chapter one is done chapter two, this is where she shuts the company down. Okay, now we're No, it's this chapter. And then I was like, wait, I'm an investor. That's not that she hasn't shut the company down yet. I know about that. So it was, it was great, you know, to have him read it. But I think that the thing that he really emphasized to me too, was that this is not just a book for entrepreneurs, or female entrepreneurs, he said, I'm not an entrepreneur, he said, I'm a musician, right? And but I'm a person that followed my passion, and, and love what I'm doing. And I'm always doing the things that I'm not supposed to be doing. I'm not, you know, he said, I didn't know I was going to be a coach on The Voice. And all of a sudden, he was like, I just wanted to sing for my whole life and write music. And, and so that is what this book is really, I think about and just excellent,

David Novak 37:21 

you know. And speaking of coaching, Kara, you know, how do you go about coaching yourself?

Kara Goldin 37:27 

I think the key thing I read a ton and listen to podcasts and and try and and get as much. You know, it's it's an interesting thing, because a lot of people have asked me who are my mentors, and I know a lot of people, I've been fortunate enough to be able to meet a ton of people along the way in building hand. But I feel like, I read as much as I can about people so that I really, I do my homework so that I really understand how they think about things. And I tend to actually gravitate towards people who are, who don't think the same as me or know something that I don't, because I really want to challenge myself and really want to really be that lifelong learner. So, I think that that goes back into, you know, how do I teach? How do I teach myself? How do I coach myself, I think it's, it's a combination of just always be learning, as well as also recognizing my wins along the way. And what I've done right, and especially during times when I'm fearful and when I'm scared, which I made look super confident, but I have those days and and again, I I'm an overachiever. But I'm also thought of a big thinker. That's funny, because,

David Novak 38:48 

you know, I my next question was going to be about confidence. You know, you you seem so confident, I mean it externally and the way how you communicate. Have you always been this way? Kara? Have you always been competent? And you know, what, what advice could you give others on how to build their confidence?

Kara Goldin 39:08 

I think that challenging yourself and and exactly what I was saying that trying to really surround yourself with people that may think a little bit differently than you is is something where you start to learn about yourself and about things. Again, putting yourself into situations where maybe you're a little fearful of them, and then really celebrating those things that you got through those things. I think after a while, I have one story in the book that I talked about, I have a fear of heights, I've had it my whole life. And And finally, I woke up shortly after starting hand and I just said I don't want to live with fear anymore. Ever. Like I want to figure out those things that I'm really afraid of, and I'm going to, I'm going to tackle them and I decided to climb the Grand Canyon Which many of my friends and my family said, that's crazy, I can't believe you would actually go do that. Do you know how, how big it is and how scary it is. And and again, I figured out a strategy to actually go do it. And when I was climbing out of there, I ran into other issues that, that were pretty crazy and pretty scary. But at that moment, I started to look at what I had accomplished. And it automatically it was a mindset, it automatically really helped me to kind of get through this next challenge that was in front of me. And I would say that, even during the time of, you know, the pandemic, if people have said, You're, you're kind of Zen about this whole time, and I said, I've been through a lot, right, I've watched 2008 2009, I can tell you the things that I didn't do exactly right. But I'm here to weather storms, I'm not backing down. I'm not freezing, I'm just continuing to figure out how to move forward.

David Novak 40:59 

That's great. You know, and I understand the you've developed a new sunscreen. And I'm sure you you've had a lot of doubters in this area as well until you you shouldn't do this, you'll lose your focus your as your a beverage company and water company. You know what made you forge ahead.

Kara Goldin 41:18 

So a couple of things, I started that I had basal cell skin cancer on my nose. Not not fun to say that I had cancer, but also probably the best of the worst. And that's when I really started to dig in to looking at sunscreen. And I wanted this product very similar to wanting hint water. And I just decided I could make it at home. And really, I needed a name for the FDA approves all sunscreens in the US. And that's when I put the hint name on as a placeholder. I mean, this is pretty scrappy, right? Like I put it on there as a placeholder thinking, okay, I can always change the name later on if I ever decide to launch a company. And that's when I took it out to consumers. Just to try it once we got the FDA approval. Crazy in January, people don't buy sunscreens in January, but our customer did. And that's when you know, these customers who were we had our direct to consumer side already. So the customers who were buying water, we said hey, how about a bottle of sunscreen, and here's Kara's story. She had skin cancer. And she knew she needed to start wearing sunscreen and want to give it a try. 80% of our list, tried the sunscreen, which is crazy, right? That's when I knew I had a brand. Right? And so I think that the that wall people what what was fascinating is the people that were most bothered by me launching a sunscreen, or beverage executives, they said exactly what you said, Don't do it. It's like you're losing focus. And our consumers are saying, it's about time, we're wondering when you're going to help us do some of these other categories or these other needs that we have. And so and then the other thing, the last thing that we learned from launching outside of our beverage space is we learned it actually from a customer wrote to us about two weeks after launching the sunscreen. And they said hey, did you know there's this company that's knocking you off? And I said send me a picture, sent me a picture. And the sunscreen said exactly what our sunscreen said on it, which was the first time that anybody had called out an ingredient like this, which had said no oxy Ben zone on it. And so what I realized by actually going in spaces where I'm not supposed to go into someone else's category is that we actually pushed another company, the sunscreen industry to reformulate and so if I can help my customer, not only by giving them great products, but also help my customer by forcing brands and industries to reformulate. I mean that's awesome, right? That helps my customer. And so we've done it now, in deodorant. We just did it during the pandemic and hand sanitizers. I don't know about you, but I felt like the hand sanitizer industry was just bad on a lot of levels and was just selling it because they felt like the consumer would buy anything. And so our hand sanitizer is amazing. And again, we have a direct to consumer business. I don't need to go and sell these in retail, like the consumer will come to our website and buy them and so it's you know, it's pretty easy to do it and they're great products.

David Novak 44:51 

And now you're you're you're building a great company and you're moving into different categories. What are you doing to create a special work and by Armand a special culture for your people?

Kara Goldin 45:02 

Well, it's, you know, business is, is pretty much the same as so many other companies across the US, the good thing is, is that more than half of our team because we have a lot of street sales people, I have the 200 people in our company over what 80% of our company, maybe a little less 75% of our company is in sales and sales and sort of events, marketing. And so they were spread throughout the US and they were already working remotely. But I think that the key thing is, it's really just checking in with the team overall. And you know, hiring great managers that actually stay close to their team. I think that the interesting thing about this period as compared to maybe 2008 2009, and I've talked to other leaders about this as well is that there's a lot more one on one that goes on and, and making sure that people are okay, I felt like we used to prior to 2020. Think about you know, there's the E commerce team. There's the customer service team, there's the sales team, there's the marketing, team, etc. Now, within those teams, there's individuals that are dealing with different things, maybe they've got aging parent living in their house, maybe they've got kids that they're trying to home school. And so I think that leading a company, not only where you're you go a little bit one on one, and and, you know, checking in on mental health issues. And And again, like that's, that's something that maybe no one has ever, it maybe this individual hasn't dealt with that ever before. But I think that the pandemic has brought up things for people that maybe nobody really expected. So leading a company in a way that that there is going to be a little bit more one on one I think is is absolutely critical.

David Novak 46:58 

So the one on one thing is your big cultural differentiation.

Kara Goldin 47:02 

Yeah. And I would also say that the other thing that happened this year to again, I've I've never led during a pandemic, but when it were an essential product. So we were asking our team at a time when everybody was saying to their workers and other companies shelter in place, right? Don't Don't go inside just work from home. And we were saying, well, actually, here's your gloves, here's your mask, and and here's your hand sanitizer and go into stores. And what I felt by asking people to do that was that I didn't get what they were going through and there and frankly, that, how can I actually lead if I'm not willing to jump in with them. And so I actually, frankly, on the fly, as I'm telling the team that this is what we're going to be doing, we're going to be going into stores and we're going to be Merchandising, and really supporting the stores as they're trying to stock shelves. I said, and I'm, I live in Marin County, just outside of San Francisco, and I'm taking a route as well. So I went back to my roots of doing what I was doing, and Whole Foods back in the beginning going into Target stores and, and supporting my team. And I not only realized that I was actually doing the right thing by sharing the kind of strategies like hey, go in before seven o'clock in the morning, because there's no people in the store. But I also wanted to make sure frankly, and I shared this with the team that I was making the right decision to send them out. And that if it was really not safe, that I would be able to make that call. And I would pull back. Right. And so and I think that that leading and truly being transparent with the team saying, Here's what I think we're doing today, but we may be adjusting, if it gets really bad out there, here's what I've but also, it's pretty at least where I am. If you go in before seven o'clock in the morning, then that's fine. And again, on top of all of this craziness that was going on. We have a lot of our team who was dealing with, you know, aging parents living with them. Also, you know, if not if it wasn't safe for them at with living with somebody at home, we said let's figure out what where else we could put you in the company. We didn't lay anybody off during that time either, which was pretty unusual.

David Novak 49:38 

Yeah, absolutely. And how does recognition and showing appreciation fit into your your your game plan?

Kara Goldin 49:46 

I think it's huge and it's something that is super important for people but I but I also do believe too that especially in a startup hiring people that are look at Everybody likes to hear that they're doing a good job. But I think also having hiring people that can actually be independent and really go with their marching orders to move forward is super important, too. So, I would say that, that it's a little bit different working in a small company versus a large company where I think that the most successful, especially early teams is that you've got to have people that are that are a little autonomous and are able to kind of, you know, have their goal and run with it.

David Novak 50:36 

You know, Kara, this has been so much fun. And I want to have a little bit more with the year before we break this up and do a lightning round of q&a. Right on. So what three words best describe you.

Kara Goldin 50:50 

Curious, tenacious, and humble?

David Novak 50:56 

If you could be one person for a day, who would it be and why?

Kara Goldin 51:00 

I'll say John Legend. I think he's got the greatest job in the world.

David Novak 51:06 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Kara Goldin 51:10 

People saying there's a problem and not trying to actually come up with an suggested, here's where we go.

David Novak 51:21 

What's something about you? A few people would know,

Kara Goldin 51:24 

you people would know. Well, I already shared it, but that I have a fear of heights. That was a big one.

David Novak 51:31 

Okay. Do you have any hidden talents?

Kara Goldin 51:36 

I twirled the baton for years and I still have my baton and my kids laugh that I can actually really twirl the baton. So don't ever do a baton twirling contest with me.

David Novak 51:50 

What's the absolute worst advice you've ever received?

Kara Goldin 51:55 

The worst advice. I would say that. You can't do something because you don't have experience. What's the

David Novak 52:07 

best advice you ever received?

Kara Goldin 52:12 

What's the worst that can happen?

David Novak 52:15 

What's your favorite hint flavor?

Kara Goldin 52:18 

I'm staring at it right now at Cherry.

David Novak 52:22 

Okay, who's your favorite child? You have four of them?

Kara Goldin 52:25 

Oh, come on. That's like asking me my favorite flavor of getting you. Terrible. And you can ask me my favorite dog either, too. Okay, how many of those do you have two Labradors? Like, okay,

David Novak 52:38 

for kids running pick up, buddy. You know, two dogs? How do you do it? What advice can you give? Or do you have any advice on how you balance all this?

Kara Goldin 52:47 

I think this balance that the whole balance thing. And I and I love Sheryl Sandberg. And she's a friend of mine. But I've said, you know, and when Leenane came out, I said, Cheryl, I love you. I think it's awesome. But I gotta tell you, like some days, I'm not balanced. I can't lean in. Right? Like there's there's times when it's just it's it's a lot, right. And you have kids with whatever hand foot and mouth and strep throat and you've got to meetings that target today. And I mean, that's your you're out. Right? There's there's times when balance is just not you're not capable of balance. And it's not in the stars. But I think just know that just by trying and and really owning things is it that's really the key to ultimately being able to move forward and success.

David Novak 53:38 

All right, I'm gonna wrap this up with just a couple. Couple more questions here. First one is, what three bits of advice would you give to aspiring leaders?

Kara Goldin 53:47 

If you have an idea that you can't get out of your head, go and do some research on it and map it out. And also know that everyone has fears along the way. It's not just you, and you need to figure out how to get over those fears. And then also, just, I think just try and everybody is going to have failures along the way but accepting those failures as learning lessons. And that that's really the most important piece

David Novak 54:22 

here. Has there ever been a time where you really felt that you were underestimated?

Kara Goldin 54:28 

Yeah, I mean, a lot of times I my first job and I getting a job at Time Magazine, and which is one of the chapters in these books. I mean, I think early on, I didn't have an Ivy League degree and I went in and I just decided that that even though everybody else in around me had an Ivy League degree and they had decided that I wasn't going to be successful in some way I thought I'm just going to do the best job I can to really prove at and at the end of one year, I had most of the publishers saying to me, Hey, do you have any friends that went to school with you, because your work ethic and your ability to actually get stuff done, the way we want it done is like, we want more of that we want to duplicate it. And so sometimes you can't do things that sometimes people are going to underestimate you. But you just have to work hard, and and ultimately go and just show people that you can get it done. And then you'll suddenly be the person that people want to replicate.

David Novak 55:39 

Let last question here. You know, diversity and inclusion is high on everybody's list these days? Are you doing anything unique on that front?

Kara Goldin 55:49 

We have always done a lot to diversify in terms of gender, and in and over 60% of our company is actually females. And so again, people always ask, do you, do you try and hire females? I'm like, no, they're the best people for the job. And and, and oftentimes people will say to me, that I mean, do do man show. I mean, what how did man like why do you think women are the best? I? I don't know. Like, I just feel like when women come in, and they and they also they've made a decision, right? They've oftentimes made a decision that they want to work for a purpose driven company, maybe they want to work for a female executive, I don't know. But I feel like that has been less conscious. It's actually been finding the right people. And I think it's the same across the board for all diversity. It's just we are really looking to find the best people in the company and and do what we can to recruit those people by just being who we are, and and setting the record straight. And I think that that's the most important piece.

David Novak 57:04 

Great, great. Well, Kara, thank you so much for taking the time, and congratulations on on all your success. And I think you're really a badass leader.

Kara Goldin 57:13 

Oh, thank you. Well, I have to start a new last write a new one. So all right, thank you so much. Okay, thank you.

David Novak 57:32 

Well, let me tell you something. Kerr is absolutely a badass leader. She's undaunted, by the circumstances she has gets out there and goes for it. Now, that doesn't mean she hasn't felt afraid from time to time. But whether it was a fear of her startup failing, or a fear of heights, she didn't let us stop her from going after what she wanted. And boy, what a powerful lesson that is for us. So let's take a minute and see how we can apply it to our fears and our anxieties. Because you know, we've all got them as a part of your weekly personal development plan. Ask yourself these three questions. One, what fear Do you have to what would be possible if you could get past that fear? And finally, what specific actions could you take to actually try and conquer that fear? Now, I'm not saying you need to hike the Grand Canyon, like Kara did to confront her fear of heights. But I know you're going to be surprised by what you're capable of doing if you decide that fear isn't going to stop you from doing it. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders tackle their fears head on. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be