David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings from that by the end of the episode, you will have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is near and chattery, CEO of Panera, let me ask you, have you ever been absolutely overwhelmed by a challenge? Maybe it was a crisis, or a huge turnaround effort, or just a complex problem you just didn't really know how to fix. Boy, those are moments that define us as leaders. And believe me, my friend near and shatter, he can teach us so much about how to turn those challenges moments into defining wins. When he took over Panera in 2019, near and had an uphill challenge to revitalize the fading brand. He made some big shifts and got the company back on track, and then wham, the COVID crisis hits, and they lost 50% of their business in a week. Now, that's a big challenge. And in moments like this near and says, We have to begin with the end in mind. What does reality look like? Once we get through that challenge? That big vision is what's going to give our teams the hope and optimism and clarity they need to move through it. When it comes to tough situations. Few people have more wisdom than Niren I'm telling you, this is gonna get you so fired up and inspired to tackle your next big challenge. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. niran chattery

David Novak 1:46 

Thanks so much for taking the time to have this conversation with us. I could David, you know near and I want to focus this conversation on your business and your approach to leading others but but first tell me tell me what makes Panera so unique.

Niren Chaudhary 2:01 

I think firstly, up, up up lists, you know, our purpose is to have a healthier and a happier world. And that's why we exist. And I think our mission is very simple. Just to make sure that good food is accessible to everyone, those who can afford us but also those who cannot afford us. And that's why we come to work every single day. I think what makes Panera unique, I would I would have to say are our values. And the ones that really resonate with me. One is, you know, Food With Integrity, food where we have no artificial ingredients, all our animal proteins from responsibly raised animals. The fact that as a brand, we are always always transparent. And I think most importantly, David, we have this filter of the will only serve food that we would serve to our own children. And I think that I think is the sort of the, the compass of the company and, and we just passionate about food and good eating.

David Novak 3:08 

So there's food with integrity. And I also understand you have this no no list of ingredients. Is it? So do you see that as your Northstar going forward?

Niren Chaudhary 3:18 

Yeah, so I think going forward, our sort of desire is to be relevant with customers who don't want to make any false compromises in life. By that I mean, customers are no longer saying give me credibility of wellness. They're saying I want credibility and wellness. Customers are no longer saying, Give me convenience or quality. They're saying we want both. And I think that's our North Star, which is we want to eliminate the need for false choices for our customers by giving them craveable wellness together in a way that's personalized, and convenience and quality together as well. In fact, the role that we play in a customer's life is quite unique. You know, we hear this all the time from our researches customers say, you know, when I choose Panera, I feel better about myself. It helps me build my self esteem, because I know I made a good choice today. So that's what we want to do. We want to basically make customers feel that that we have a reason for them to feel good about themselves.

David Novak 4:26 

Right? You know, you came in a little over a year ago, became CEO of this unbelievably powerful brand. What kind of shape was the business and when you took over?

Niren Chaudhary 4:38 

Firstly when I was asked whether I would lead this company I was I was jumping for joy. I said you know brand like Panera. It was such an honor to be asked to lead this incredible brand. So when I came in, firstly, what stood out for me are the overwhelming strengths. And the first one is a rockstar brand you know the there's a survey called the motorist a survey in 2018 that featured Panera as being the number four, most emotionally connected brand across all categories and number one in food by far. So it's a rockstar brand. But I think also we have an unbelievable infrastructure on off premise. So we are the nation's number one business catering company with the nation's number one fast casual delivery players, we have a huge infrastructure and off premise. And finally, a huge area of strength is our E commerce platform. Almost 1/3 of our revenues, it's over $2 billion comes from E commerce. And we have a loyalty program that has about 38 million customers. So I think a brand strong infrastructure with off premise, and E commerce are overwhelming strengths. And that's what struck me. But here's the challenge that I saw. You know, I saw in the last 10 years, we had eight years of terrific, consistent, same store sales growth. But in the last two years, we had faced major headwinds and a dramatic softening of the business primarily on account of the increased complexity, and worsening value for money equation for the brand. So that's what I saw on and you know, that when I came in, on the one hand, one had the heritage and the advantages of such strengths, such as ecommerce and off premise and a brand. But there was clearly, you know, pressure on the core business,

David Novak 6:33 

how did you near and so you've got this pressure on the core business and you come in how do you get up to speed on the business, which is you just mentioned, it's very complex, you got delivery online, e commerce, huge supply chain, you've got company and franchised stores, and even have baking 24 hour baking in the store? So this is a very complex business, how did you go to school on what needed to be done?

Niren Chaudhary 6:59 

So I think I was, you know, at times, if it felt overwhelming, I have to be honest. You know, I had this big sense of responsibility and accountability that this team deserves to win, this brand deserves to win, and you're not winning. And I just felt that, you know, I was just taking too long, even though I had just sort of joined the company, and I needed to get up to speed fast. So I think some core principles, one, I think, whenever I'm feeling sort of overwhelmed, I say, Okay, let me focus on what I have control over, and not on what's happening to me. That's the first thing. Secondly, is, lets me really have the curiosity to learn and to really listen, because the problems are out there. But even the solutions are out there. If you go to the 140,000 Associates, and the franchise partners we have they know what needs to be done, one just has to listen and join the dots. So this kind of curiosity to learn. At the same time, I think, having the audacity to dream reminding everybody that let's not get bogged down by the current reality, let's kind of dream of what this might look like when we get to the other side. And finally, having the courage to act, like recognizing that what worked in the past may not work now. So one may have to make very tough, courageous decisions on the team, on the structure on the capability on the culture, in the driver transformation, so that we can take the brand and the business to where it needs to go. So that's what I tried to do.

David Novak 8:28 

So once you did your homework, how'd you go about communicating your game plan?

Niren Chaudhary 8:33 

So I think, you know, I really believe that leaders firstly need to define reality, but also create hope and optimism and have a clear sort of vision. So did lots of work on what is our purpose? Who are we? Why do we work? What are our core values and, you know, brought that all together, but again, a lot of engagement and listening and uncovering the truth. It was not a creating of something that was new, it was basically listening, and uncovering what already existed. So this purpose of one Panera, for a healthier and happier world, was the purpose statement that we came up with. And then we deconstructed the businesses having three transformational challenges. business transformation, we needed to get the momentum back needed to rebuild the leadership team, structural transformation, we had to basically wire for speed, flatten the organization and make it more integrated cultural transformation, which is we needed to remind ourselves that it is one team one system, one team, Panera were one Panera respect to a franchisor or company, and that the single most important leader that we have in the business is the cafe General Manager. So articulating the vision, defining the transformation agenda, and then really communicating that communicating that and then communicating that some more till people are sick and tired of listening to you. And you can almost say predict, predict what you gotta say, then you know, the message is beginning to land.

David Novak 10:04 

You know, I understand that you really started disrupting the industry with the first coffee subscription. Tell me your thinking behind this breakthrough idea what the initial consumer response has been.

Niren Chaudhary 10:16 

So you know, we were. So this was like end of 2019. And we had by now learned, we had the vision vision very clear, we had the transformation roadmap. And we had three important objectives. And we were feeling good about the year 20/21 objective was, let's reduce the complexity. So we were going to take 25% of our menu items off. Second was disruptive value. We knew that value was a biggest barrier. And we knew by just tinkering around in the margins, we're not going to be able to have the impact of shocking that affordability barrier perception that customers had, we had to come up with something dramatic. And the third one was credibility. And we came up with this fantastic repertoire of craveable products for the dinner day part like flat breads and bowls, and so on. But back to your question on value. So we knew that incremental efforts at value will not work. We knew that the QSR playbook on discounting, you know, value of the day, everyday value, etc. Not going to work because we're not a QSR brand. We knew we needed to actually discover something that was disruptive, had not been done before, and therefore was truly Panera. So here was the insight in America to earn 50 million people drink coffee every single day. However, more than half of those customers feel very guilty about the amount of money that they pay for accessing premium coffee. In fact, an average American spends $1,100 a year on coffee. And why does coffee premium coffee have to be so damn expensive? What's the question? And then we ask ourselves? Do we have premium coffee? Yes. Do we sell a lot of it? No. Do people know us for coffee? Clearly not? Can we do something that nobody else has done? For example, democratizing coffee, you know, making it so easily available, that will shock and shake up the entire industry, and also reorient the customers towards how they perceive value for Panera. So we came up with this idea of coffee subscription, which is unlimited premium coffee for only 899 a month, boom, you know, so this was when we went with this news. We got almost 4 billion impressions of this idea, just people were just absolutely dazzled by it and said, How come nobody's ever thought of this. It is true. I spent $1,100 on coffee a year. And with Panera I can save 1000 bucks. That's incredible. So I think it really started getting momentum. Now here's, here's why I think it was a killer idea and is a killer idea. We tested this thing for about three months. And here are the results. Our frequency jumped up about four times. Our attachment went up by 70% Food attachment went up by 70%. And the most important marker for subscription is the renewal rate. You know how many people renew it, we had a 95% renewal factor with subscription to this was we thought a homerun and we started pushing the pedal on this and boom COVID hit us.

David Novak 13:27 

So you have a coffee subscription going you got a great new products for breakfast. But along with the coffee subscription, you've got new craveable dinner items. And all this happening like within the six months is like warp speed. The business I take it is starting to turn that out of the blue. The world was flattened by COVID-19. How did you immediately shift gears to do business in this environment?

Niren Chaudhary 13:52 

You know, it was dramatic that disruption to our business was severe. I think with a social distancing with a containment, we had to very quickly close many of our dining areas. And we had a massive, massive disruption in our business within the span of a week. It was dramatic. So this is like you know today but more than half our business is you know, on premise. So imagine we had like down obliterated 50% of our businesses gone in about three days, you know, and looking looking quite quite bad. So we knew that we didn't know where the bottom was. We didn't know how bad this would get. So very quickly and all of us were working remote already, you know we had decided to work remote. So very quickly, we said okay, before this thing really gets out of hand. Let's have a clarity on what our objectives are and what our values are. What are we trying to do? So there were two most important objectives we identified number one was the safety of our customers and Associates was paramount. The most important thing second was also the the protection of a brand and Business. And we recognize both were important we had to actually survive, we had to make sure that we, we had the cash and the liquidity. But we had to protect our brand. But we had to do it in a way that ensured safety of our customers and our associates. And we realized, as we are going to do both, we will have to make some very, very tough choices. And then we said, okay, what are our filters? What are our values that we will apply? Number one, we said, this is a short term phenomena, and a disruption, we will get to the other side. So let's keep that context. This too, shall pass as the second one we said is, at times like this, we must behave with the utmost amount of compassion, care, respect, transparency, and candor, with our associates with our customers with our communities. And third, was, let's not get overwhelmed with what's happening. Let's actually also look for opportunities to inspire, and to shine. So very early on, the team kind of came together, and we define these as being the guardrails of how we would operate.

David Novak 16:18 

So the opportunity to shine What are you most proud of so far?

Niren Chaudhary 16:23 

So I think, several things you know, David, I think, firstly, I have to say what I have seen from the team has been truly inspirational, I have seen the tenacity to just keep going, I have seen resilience to keep fighting no matter what. And I have seen inventiveness at an unbelievable level, with extreme speed and agility. And I'll give you a few examples. So, so here's a mindset of a company that that knows that, you know, we're in deep waters that knows that we have to respond that knows we should survive this and, and try and become bigger, but also realizes, we have to play our part and being part of the solution, as we do all of this. So first, for example, on the customer side, we recognize the customers are looking for safety and convenience, we recognize that we offer the 2200 cafes, we have only half had drive throughs and the others didn't have anything. And we were really bleeding badly. So within a week, we set up curbside pickup across 1000 cafes, including pop up drive throughs. So think of this as a little tent outside with a kid standing there with his iPad, taking orders and then getting the food outside to our customers, or curbside you know, order and pickup where customers are ordering from the car. And their associate is coming out and giving them the food in their car. So we set this up, you know, in about five days flat. Another one is Panera grocery. So we recognized that there was a huge amount of friction. For Home delivery of high demand grocery items, I'm sure you must have experienced that as well, right. And recognizing that we said well, we have a potential write off of over $30 million on supply chain, if we don't do something with our ingredients very quickly. So we had a problem, the customer had a problem. And very quickly, the team came up with a solution which was Panera grocery, where the proposition was very simple, high demand grocery items, like bakery products, dairy products, fresh produce, delivered to your home the same day in less than 60 minutes. And this as a new line of business was thought of conceived and then developed and then executed all within 14 days flat.

David Novak 18:57 

That is absolutely crazy. You know, I was going to ask you this question. But it's probably a crazy thing to ask you though. Because you're probably became enormously inspired and positive just by what you were seeing out there. I was going to ask you how you kept yourself positive when you're seeing the business just go in the tank like that, you know, what do you do?

Niren Chaudhary 19:16 

Yeah, I think I firstly, you know, I felt so accountable and so responsible at a human level towards those who are going through such tough times as a leader as a brand as a business and I just kept asking myself, you know, I should be doing more and I can't let people down and there is so much that needs to be done. So, so back back to my core principles. When I get overwhelmed. It's kind of okay. Just take personal ownership for what you have control over. So you know, kind of just brought myself back to okay, what can I what do I have control over next five days with my leadership team on these Cisco WebEx call? was, we're going to huddle for 15 hours a day. And we're just going to keep moving, keep moving, keep solving problems. The second one I think that gives me a lot of energy is, every time I lead with my heart, you know, every time I feel that, you know, we had to follow 1000s of employees, David, you know, because when the business goes down by 50%, you can imagine you have to follow half of your associates very quickly, we had to eliminate roles, the cut salaries, you know, from five to 50%, I took a salary cut 50%, etc. Everybody did, you know, with the with the, with the feeling of your one family. So, I think when you're doing that, and making those tough decisions, but if you do it with heart with compassion, and do even the tough things with with compassion, and care and respect, it does give you some energy, and I certainly got energy from that. And I think, lastly, I have this metaphor, in my mind is, when things are tough, you know, build windmills, and don't dive into bunkers. And I think when the world is diving into bunkers, I'm just asking my teams every day. Okay, guys, where's the windmill for today? You know, we let's not get round to this noise. Let's do something amazing. You know, how can we inspire? How can we impact our associates? How can we impact our customers? What more can we do for our community? Where is the next windmill? So I think by those three things, you know, compassion and ownership and thinking of windmills, not bonkers. I think I tried to get sort of nurture myself emotionally. And then, of course, the support of my family at this time. My son's here with me with his fiancee, and my wife was an absolute Rockstar, you know, leaning on them, and having a bit of a laugh in the evening, and just relaxing and recharging myself. That's what kept me going.

David Novak 21:48 

Yeah, fantastic. You know, how do you think niran COVID-19 will change business the way we do it from here on out?

Niren Chaudhary 21:56 

Sure. So the first thing, of course, in the post virus world is, you know, just remembering that we have to build trust in the way in which we treat our associates, customers, and our community. So that is the most important thing, because I think brands who stand up for what they believe in at this time, and do the hard things the right way, I think is the first pillar of what we need to do. I think beyond that, on the customer side, I feel customers are going to look for safety. You know, I want to know that I'm safe, customers are going to look for off premise convenience. So I want to eat, you know, in my home or wherever else. So are you good at that customers are looking to look for more value, because I think we're going to move into a very difficult financial time. And then finally, I do believe that with this pandemic, customers are going to be more concerned about what they put inside their bodies. This wellness component of food should be good, but also good for you, you know, and if that is what the customer wants, I think Panera is quite uniquely, fortunately positioned to leverage our strengths of our brand are off premise infrastructure or E commerce platform that we have to really deliver on those desires that a customer has. So therefore, leveraging the strengths of our brand is the second component, along with of course, ensuring that the experience is very safe. And then finally, I think we will have to think about transformation. Because I don't think the business is going to come back very quickly. So we will have to start thinking of what is my new operating model of the future going to look like? How will I create compelling shareholder returns? Where will growth come from? If the core doesn't come back, if my on premise business, which is half the business for Panera doesn't come back as quickly? Where will I get growth from? What are some of the adjacencies? Where are some of the white spaces like grocery or meal kits or others that I should be thinking about? So that I can actually start creating a transformative business model for the future?

David Novak 23:56 

You know, near and I know you're a big believer in culture and you just talked about the importance of building trust, what's the single biggest thing you're going to drive going forward on the culture front?

Niren Chaudhary 24:05 

Well, David, I truly believe that strategy is good, but execution is everything. And superior execution is a function of the right people doing the right things the right way. And the right way is culture. Culture is you know, how we treat each other cultures you know, how we show up every single day. And I think to me, the culture firstly begins with my walking the talk on the values that are important to the company, through how I show up and my behaviors and then the behaviors of my leadership team. Now fortunately, I had, I was able to construct a new leadership team that has now come together and we've brought in to complement the already existing strengths we have at Panera terrific set of experiences from the outside from brands like Under Armour, Kraft, Heinz CVS, Domino's was etc. Terrific brands but all of them have used the filter of a culture fit all of them who share the same values, the same beliefs and the same way of doing business. So I think it starts with me, it starts with the leadership team. And then I think it cascades all the way down. And some of the pillars of what we want to really drive is one, the number one thing is the cafe General Manager is the most important leader in the business. It's not me it's not anybody else, not the leadership team. We all exist to serve the cafe General Manager, more than anybody else. The second is that we are one Panera. One Panera for customers, one Panera for communities, one player for associates in one Panera for franchisees and one Panera. Indeed for company. We want Panera. And we have to act with one Panera mindset and have the one sort of culture we want to have build the most customer responsive company in the world, building relationships with customers, one customer at a time. We want to love our associates even before we love our customers. And the last one is we want to be of service to our communities. You know, we want to actually create shareholder value by doing good and doing it the right way for associates customers communities, where you

David Novak 26:20 

obviously have a lot going on at Panera and I'd like to shift gears for just a little bit. I want to go to back to Krispy Kreme where you were the CEO there. Now you're selling food with integrity, and you used to sell these pretty indulgent doughnuts. Did you have any problem reconciling that in your mind near and

Niren Chaudhary 26:39 

I think David if we go back further than that, I was with yum brands that was selling fried chicken. You know, fried tacos.

David Novak 26:47 

How did you reconcile going from evolve at indulgent food to this? You know, purposeful food?

Niren Chaudhary 26:53 

Yeah, I think the what's at the core of all of these brands are two things. One is each one of the brands that I've worked with have been leaders in their respective categories. You know, so there's no chicken like KFC, Pizza Hut, the best pizza, Taco Bell similarly, and Krispy Kreme there's absolutely no donor that quite matches up to the glory of Krispy Kreme. And I think similarly Panera is number one leader. So I think for me, what drives me is this leadership position of a brand that beings believes in being the very best in the category in which they operate. So that's the first thing which is common across all of them. The second one, I think, which is common across all of them, is this deep passion to do things the right way, and always be committed to quality. I know in KFC for example, how hard at KFC we worked to give customers the best and the freshest quality products. Similarly, Pizza Hut Taco Bell, and I think similarly at Krispy Kreme, you know, all handmade freshly prepared doughnuts every single day, and Panera is the same. So I think what I've brought forward with me, in my experience so far has been this commitment to leader brands, and who believe in quality, who can stand behind what they do, and do that with integrity. And I think that's what defines the success of these companies. And I think that's the those are the lessons that I've leveraged across as

David Novak 28:24 

well. I like eating all that stuff. You know, I mentioned the you build yum brands India from from scratch, KFC and Pizza Hut and Taco Bell. What can you tell us about India that you can only learn from the ground floor, if you could just give us one big thing that you just basically have to be an Indian to know it.

Niren Chaudhary 28:44 

Yeah, so I think in India, firstly, I mean, it's a gigantic country, 1.4 billion people. I think most people know that. But not many people know that 60% of the population is under 30 years of age. So think of the entire population of Europe and the US in one country. And all kind of less than 30 years of age. That is a staggering stat, and indicative of the importance of brands to be aspirational. The third thing I think it's interesting insight is for 1.4 billion people, we have 350 million gods, right. So I think we have, we have one single god for every single problem that anyone might have. But I think to me, the three 50 million gods are reflective of the diversity. It's kind of the more like the United States of Europe, India is in terms of diversity of ethnic groups of language of how people look how they dress, what they eat. So it's a melting pot of a very complex fabric of, you know, people all sort of living together with this country. escalating trade nation called India,

David Novak 30:02 

you know, near and here you are, you're talking about love and all this stuff, you know, and you're this hard driving CEO, you know, when you start talking love and what do people do they really buy into this.

Niren Chaudhary 30:15 

What I hope they sort of take genuine, it is from the heart, but I think it is. I can say what I what I like, I think it's kind of what I do that truly matters. And hopefully, my team is seeing that. I genuinely mean that when I say we must act with compassion and care, and love for those around us. You know, I'm making steps every single day and I'm being sort of very committed to those set of values.

David Novak 30:50 

Near and I know you had the unfathomable experience of losing your daughter, Aisha to pulmonary fibrosis. She was an incredibly inspiring leader herself having known her, she gave unbelievable TED talk. She wrote a powerful book, what was the most powerful thing you learned from ideation? And how does that factor into your life today, she passed away at a very, very young age. Yeah, Aisha

Niren Chaudhary 31:16 

passed away when she was just 18. From pulmonary fibrosis, which is like a hardening of the lung. And that was like a side effect of the chemotherapy that she had to undergo for a bone marrow transplant that she had when she was six months old, she had a lifetime of medical issues. I have to say Aisha is the most inspiring person, my daughter, that I have ever known. And I think she was 13 when I shared with her that Darling, you have limited time to live only five years, but you know, your dad, I'm gonna do anything and more possible to find a cure. And I am disappointed that I was not able to live up to that promise. But I think the way in which Aisha embraced that reality, but then quickly, focused on what she had control over, was truly inspiring. For me, the three things that I really learned from my share one is courage, which is, one can't help the cards that life deals, you. But you can certainly help how you play that hand. By jumping as high as you can, from wherever you are, and being the very best that you can possibly be. So courage was the first thing. Secondly, I think she had this beautiful sense of gratitude. And I think we all need to just step back, just take a deep breath. And just think of our many, many blessings in life, the people that we know, the people that we care about. And the so many things that we have to be grateful for the fact we can talk to each other that we can see, we can walk, we are alive, I think that is reason to have gratitude. And the third thing that I knew was that, and she said says this in her book called my little epiphanies. She said, If you can't change your own life, there is always someone else's. I think that has that is actually I think behind the huge amount of desire that I have for compassion and to give back and give back to the communities. And if I can't change my own life, I can certainly make a difference in the lives of those caught around around me. So I think she was very inspiring. She continues to be very inspiring. And I'm really proud to be her dad.

David Novak 33:43 

Well, you you were an amazing dad. And she was an amazing person. Netflix recently launched a very successful movie called The sky is pink. And it's an incredible love story about you and your wife, a DD is spanning 25 years through the lens of ideation, your daughter. And she tells the story, Wendy and I watched it and we thought it was great. You know, how involved were you in the creative process? And what was your biggest leadership lesson on how to make a movie?

Niren Chaudhary 34:20 

Well, it was, it was quite a quite a journey. David, I think it didn't start off with the intent of making a movie. But you know how sometimes these things just sort of converge and take a life of their own and, and they ended up becoming something that is beautiful, and that is impactful, and that will make a difference to many lives across the world. So we're very grateful for that. It all started by us speaking to shonali Bose who's the director and scriptwriter, just when we lost Asia in 2015 to just sort of Chronicle and capture how wonderful Aisha was and her story and that was the intent, but that soon was recognized as being an absolutely brilliant story in The way in which shonali brought it together in 100 pages, she could have told us story of 25 years, beautifully. And from there, I think it gained more attention and people wanted to then make that into a movie and said, Roy Kapoor is one of the best directors wanted to make this movie. And we were fortunate to have actors like Priyanka Jonas, who signed up to play my wife and for an actor who was playing me. And Zara, who's playing Aisha,

David Novak 35:30 

I have to tell you here, and I hate to interrupt you, but the actor who played you is a hell of a lot better looking. That's let's So what So what have you learned? What do you learn from this movie, baking process, Mr. Hollywood, Bollywood,

Niren Chaudhary 35:47 

Bollywood, I just feel that sometimes the most beautiful stories are those that are that are simple. And that just don't try and teach you anything. But just share. And unfold. How a family just let their life making the most of what they had, and capturing little little moments of joy and happiness along the way, and did the best that they could, and develop wonderful relationships and wonderful memories as the process of that. So I think to me, it's just a story of life. So it is not overly dramatic. I think it deals with the aspect of death in a way we should, which is we should embrace death, the way we embrace life. So I think the the elegance of a story is compounded, if it is simple. And I think that that, for me, was a really important insight that I think the simpler a story is, the more it resonates, and the more it captures people's hearts,

David Novak 36:57 

listening to this entire conversation that we're having here, you know, which I'm enjoying a lot. You've made big changes wherever you've been. What advice can you give to others on on how to muster up the courage to really make the change?

Niren Chaudhary 37:13 

Well, I think two things, one, I think, is begin with the end in mind. You know, think of life as a unfinished painting. And begin with the end in mind, envision what you want that painting to look like, the colors in all the vivid details, the contours, the paintbrush, as vividly and as richly as you can imagine it because the more you can begin with the end in mind, and what you want your life to look like the higher likelihood one has of making that happen. So I think that would be one. The second thing I think is I've realized that leadership is all about trust, establishing trust, if you can establish trust, I think you can move mountains. And trust in turn, I think is not just competence, I've realized, is probably even more about character. You can get, you know, plenty of smart people. But I think what truly differentiates inspiring leaders from just managers is leaders who have a trustworthy character. And I think that, to me, is totally a function of clarity of values. So if you have clear values, that you hold yourself accountable to every single day, and promise and commit yourself that you will lead your life by those values, in all your relationships doesn't matter personally professionally, so that you basically build a character that can be trustworthy. So my values, for example, are one is of congruence, which is what I think feel, say or two should all be consistent. And I should not appear as being in conflict. So that's the first thing second is about curiosity, always wanting to learn and to get better. Third, is courage. Courage to stand up and stand up for what I believe in and who I am. And finally, I think compassion. You've heard me say compassion multiple times. But I think it's a deep value of mine that, you know, we have to do things. We can even do tough things, but you can do them with heart.

David Novak 39:30 

You've had so much success niran But everyone has an epic fail. You know, from a business perspective, what's yours and what did you learn from it?

Niren Chaudhary 39:40 

I think I've had multiple failures. You know, personally, your biggest my biggest one. Okay, so you did agree that they've had multiple failures? Yes, I

David Novak 39:49 

did. I witnessed a few but I want to hear your biggest.

Niren Chaudhary 39:55 

I think the biggest failure I would say was for me back in India, where, you know, we had the India, I ran the India Business, as you know, David for over a decade. And it went through different phases. So the startup phase, which was this global brand, with a local heart, make it locally relevant and accessible, and therefore adapt and innovate and make sure that the customers can understand who you are, and scale it. And that was, you know, that was phenomenally successful phase one. My, my big failure was not recognizing that what works at one stage of your business does not keep working forever. And as we grow into more maturity, I start kept applying the same playbook of brand with a local heart and locally relevant and locally accessible. And the brand had become far more complicated, and business of scale. And I think it did not work. And in fact, on the contrary, it started going the other way. And I felt very accountable. I felt that, you know, I was not able to get on top of that quickly enough. And that was a big, big learning because I felt that things were out of control. And I felt what I knew was not working. And I didn't know what to do. And I think reflecting on that has been a really terrific learning for me, which is one must learn, but then unlearn, and then relearn. And that learning is not just one continuous process or a finite process, you have to constantly learn. But then you have to have the humility to unlearn what you think you learned. Because as things change around you, you have to learn again. And then again, get on the treadmill, and again, unlearn and then again, relearn. And if one has, like I had at that time, you know, I had, I just thought that I had had kind of cracked the playbook and this is how it will work. I think you become arrogant, and you know, you stop listening till it doesn't work. And I think that you have to just step back and learn from it. And I certainly have,

David Novak 42:14 

you know, near and having a little fun here. You know, I know you're an avid guitar player and a singer my, my wife yesterday turned out her birthday, I will tell you how old she is everybody but dear had sent her a nice little video of say to him singing Happy Birthday dressed up with a beard. It was a lot of fun. You know, it's great. Do you use your music, talents it at work? I mean, is this something that you bring to as a part of you to work?

Niren Chaudhary 42:40 

Yeah, you know, I think much of the annoyance of my associates, I think I'm always looking for large crowds. Now the largest crowd that I have is in my town halls, about 1500 2000 people. So it doesn't get bigger than that. Now, I just look for the opportunities, I make sure the back doors are closed. And then the guitars in my hand and people can't run out of the hall. And then I know, I think on a on a serious note, I think it is a very much part of my authentic self. It's the way in which I express myself. So you know, when we had the coffee subscription idea, I wrote a coffee song. Now we have this together without hunger happening. I've written that together without hunger song. And I just it's just the way in which I express myself. I love it. And so far, I think my teammates are being very indulgent, I have to say and

David Novak 43:30 

Oh, it's great. It makes it fun to work with you. There's no question about that. I want to have a little more fun here and I don't want to do a lightning round q&a. Okay, so this is really, really quick, quick answers. Okay. What three words best describe you.

Niren Chaudhary 43:45 

Compassionate, humble learner?

David Novak 43:49 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Niren Chaudhary 43:53 

People who don't do what they say.

David Novak 43:56 

If you could trade places with the person for a day, who would it be and why?

Niren Chaudhary 44:02 

My wife because I'd be much better looking.

David Novak 44:05 

What's a random fact about you that few people know.

Niren Chaudhary 44:08 

I'm a black belt in martial arts.

David Novak 44:11 

What's your favorite book and why?

Niren Chaudhary 44:15 

Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Stephen Covey. I read that book several times because I think it helps one clarify what one's core values should be?

David Novak 44:24 

What's your favorite Panera Bread product?

Niren Chaudhary 44:27 

Oh, there's so many. I had to say that. To put chipotle chicken avocado sandwich.

David Novak 44:34 

In near and you've had so many experiences in your business career. What would be the one that you would say that was the most transformative?

Niren Chaudhary 44:45 

boastfully you think or from a business standpoint, business standpoint, but it's no standpoint. I think I'm living it right now. I think I have never experienced anything quite as disruptive as I did during COVID Which is why I found this whole challenge. truly fascinating at so many From dimensions, and just I've had to really seriously up my game, and make sure that I'm up for the challenge and helping lead my team and my company the way it should be and doing what we should be doing for the community in that process.

David Novak 45:15 

If you had to pick one trait that you'd look for in a leader, what would it be?

Niren Chaudhary 45:20 

It is easily humility. I think if leaders have humility, or self awareness, I think everything else falls in line.

David Novak 45:28 

And if you think about, you know, the future, and you think about your own personal development, what's the one thing you know, you have to get better at to be an even more effective leader.

Niren Chaudhary 45:39 

I think I'm, I get excited by ideas, I have to be I have to be more disciplined with execution, I can see you nodding your head there. But

David Novak 45:51 

that's not true. I mean, I think if you're putting it all together, I couldn't be happier for what you're doing. And it's fun to fun to say, you know, if you if you were gonna just think about, you know, who you are today, versus who you'd be 10 years from now, what do you say, would be the biggest thing that you could do?

Niren Chaudhary 46:15 

I feel that I would love to be a catalyst for positive change, and be able to truly impact the lives of those around me, people who I work with people I connect with, and also have a meaningful part to play in making a contribution to the community of which we're a part of. So I hope that in 10 years time, all my experiences will help me become more prepared to be able to have even more impact 10 years down the road,

David Novak 46:44 

when you think about leaders and you know, you've got people come to you now you're the CEO, they ask you for advice, what three bits of advice would you give aspiring leaders?

Niren Chaudhary 46:55 

I would say, first of all, is that spend time not only becoming smart, but spend time developing your strength of character, you know, to our conversation earlier, I really think that competence is over developed. And I think emotional intelligence character is, is something that we don't pay enough attention to. And I think that's very, very important. I think second is to truly wake up every single day, with this fierce determination of to be the very best version of yourself that you can be by being just a little bit better than you were last yesterday. And I think this, and that, I think, is a mindset of innovation of never being always being restless, and never been truly satisfied. So I would probably say that, you know, spend more time thinking about who you are, and be restless.

David Novak 47:51 

So the third would be restless. Alright, that's fantastic. You know, I'd like to just kind of wrap this up by going back to the beginning. Tell us about your upbringing.

Niren Chaudhary 48:04 

I was born in India, two loving parents. My father was in the government service, my mother, Doctor, I have one brother. And I think it was a very loving middle class home. I think that's where I learned from my father, most importantly, of the importance of doing the right things the right way. And I think he was always talking to me about the importance of integrity, and how the only wealth that you can have is your character and your integrity. So it's so important to do things the right way. He also told me, one of the things that stays with me, and I think I have to keep reminding myself. He said, Do you know why God gave you two years in one mouth? And I said to him, Well, I'd looked very funny the other way around. said no, he said, Because you should be listening two times more than what you say. And I think that was that is so accurate. I think listening is such an important thing that one needs to do. So I think I picked up those valuable lessons. Life lessons from my father, from my mother, it was unconditional love, and great food that I remember from my childhood. And with my my brother, it was all a healthy sense of competition as to who's the better son.

David Novak 49:29 

You got the black black belts so you could kill him. Now near and I understand that you took a class 12 exam with all the Indians in your grade. And you You came in either first or second, I forget but you were number one or two all the kids in your grade in India.

Niren Chaudhary 49:52 

Yeah, I was I was number two by one mark. So what those numbers are right, but that was two by one.

David Novak 49:56 

Well, what I've come to conclusion is you had to be sitting there next to somebody who's very smart,

Niren Chaudhary 50:01 

okay, I'll tell you the real reason why that happened. I met my wife when she was 14, I was 16, she is infinitely better looking than I am what what I saw her was my future wife. What she saw in me was a wannabe. So I had to work very, very hard to grab her attention. I had to learn to play the guitar, everything that I do martial arts, and then academics, I had to kill that exam, I had to do well, for her to think that I was worthy. So she was really the wind beneath my sails, so to speak.

David Novak 50:34 

You know, one of the things that you didn't bring up when you were talking about your your culture was recognition. And it kind of surprised me, because when I worked with you, you were huge into recognition. How do you make that come alive in your company?

Niren Chaudhary 50:46 

Oh, well, I, you know, I'm a, it's such a core part of who I am, I really believe that recognition, repeats, whatever you want to get repeated. And recognition is the tangible proof point of what you truly value and what you stand for. And I think recognition is about giving to people what all of us need, which is just an affirmation of our importance and our contribution to the world around us. It's such a deep need. I used to get all the recognition that I've gotten over the years, you know, I have a little folder, that I keep it in for a rainy day, I pull it out and look at it and say, Okay, I'm not that bad. But seriously, I think recognition has a much deeper impact than any of us realize. And it is a very, very core part of who I am and how I lead. I think what's most important is it has to be authentic. It has to be specific. It has to be real, it has to be timely. And I'm a huge believer.

David Novak 51:51 

Fantastic. One other question I have on India's many times India's compared to China. What's what's going to happen in India before that country takes off and its economy grows and flourishes like China has certainly in the last 20 years?

Niren Chaudhary 52:06 

I think China has benefited from, I think, what is I guess good about India, but then holds it back to some extent. So I think what India, what stands out is the democracy, the fact that we're the world's largest democracy, one of the world's largest English speaking nations, we have the rule of law, we have the freedom of press, we have world class institutions. And I think some of the price of that is that we cannot move as fast as one may want to, perhaps in an economy, which has more authoritarian form of government. So I think, but you know, I would not trade what we have in India for a minute for anything but what we have, because I think freedom is so important. Democracy is so important. So I think we have to work within the confines of the constraints of that institution setup that we have. And I think we presently are the last, I would say, five or six years, we have a prime minister, and a government that is very pro business and pro reform, I think we have need a lot, lots more of that. A lot more of reforms, a lot more of infrastructure work. And that's how I think it will all start coming together. But I think the foundations of, you know, like, by 2030, I think India will be probably the largest, or the top two biggest consumer markets in the world. It's undeniable. In the next 10 years, I think 200 million people will move into urban India. In the next 10 years, 200 million people from India will join the global workforce. So the India Juggernaut is undeniable. I think it's a question of when we will actually land the potential that we have as a country.

David Novak 53:59 

You know, you're a true global person. You've built global businesses throughout your career. What's the global vision for Panera?

Niren Chaudhary 54:09 

I think the currently we are primarily at North America business. So we present in the US and in Canada. And I think at the moment over the next two or three years, our focus is really rebuilding what we have, and driving our business structural and cultural transformation, and getting the business backed up and really strong. And only once that is in place and the foundation is in place. Will we then start looking at other markets beyond North America, but right now, I think over the next two or three years, I want to just be very focused on delivering on the potential in this country and you know, we have a huge runway, a massive runway of opportunity. We have, you know, urban cities in the US which are under penetrated with Panera. We could have smaller format printers that could That could work exceptionally well. We are still under penetrated in CPG in the grocery business. So I think we have tons of runway for growth within this country. I want to consolidate, build a foundation, and then look beyond

David Novak 55:13 

Do you think that you will continue to have Panera grocery?

Niren Chaudhary 55:18 

Panera so we have the Panera in as part of grocery in the CPG outlets, but Panera grocery, as we discussed as a business idea, we'll have to see, I think right now it's tracking at one to 2% of sales at very good margins. And it's what's interesting is 80% of our customers are buying this along with the Panera meal. So it's kind of I'm ordering a salad and a sandwich by the waist, throwing a baguette, and some yogurt and some avocados. So for us, that's a great outcome, because if the basket becomes bigger, for that same cost of delivering that food, so I think it has potential, but you know, to depend on how the world shapes up or post the virus and if that is still there as a consumer need or not. But I do see that perhaps in developing into other opportunities like meal kits, you know, where we can actually supply the ingredients and recipes of do it yourself sandwich or salad etc. If people want that option for off premise consumption at home. So we will be we will be maniacally focused on the customer, and follow the customer wherever he or she wants us to go,

David Novak 56:27 

you know, near when I started working few over 20 years ago, I assessed immediately that you would become a great CEO someday. And it's really great to see you at the helm of such a world class brand, attacking it with the kind of energy I know only a near and chattery could. And I want to congratulate you on your success. And I want to thank you so much for for taking the time to chat with us and share your ideas.

Niren Chaudhary 56:54 

Thank you, David, if I may, I just want to end with one story. And, you know, many people ask me, What inspires you about other people and other leaders. And, you know, I really think that leaders who truly inspire me are those is their moments of humanity, when they reach out, and they touch you in a way that is truly meaningful, human to human. And that inspires me more than anything else. And for that person, you know, I would go to the end of the world and back. And I just want to share with all the listeners and would embarrass you David with one of your stories, which is when I lost you and I of course are close friends and mentors, and you've been such a big influence on me all my life and continue to be that. But I cannot forget this particular incident. And I learned from it, which is when I lost my daughter in 2015. Hard is that was the doorbell rang in India in Delhi. And there you were, I think within 24 hours later realize that you took three different commercial planes to fly out because you know you that was the fastest way you could get to me. And you were there. And I opened the door and you just hugged me. And you know, we just cried. And he just stayed with me. And then you went back to your hotel, and then you took a flight and you're out in like less than 12 hours. And you must have flown for I don't know, maybe 3640 years. That, to me says everything about leadership. When it is about humanity. It is about deep, caring, and human to human. I think it doesn't get better than that. So I just want to thank you as well, for always being an inspiration. And I just want you to know how much that meant to me.

David Novak 58:42 

Well, thank you very much near and I appreciate that. You mean a lot to me too. I could tell you that

let me tell you something. Darren shotter. He is one fantastic human being. He's just so sincere, and he absolutely exudes character and courage and intelligence and everything that he says and does. And man, is he doing some incredible things at plein air under incredibly tough circumstances. There's so much we can learn from him about how to tackle big challenges. It takes curiosity, it takes character, it takes focusing on what you can control, not what's happening to you. And it takes a clear vision, we've got to begin with the end in mind, when we have a clearer idea of what success looks like. We get a whole new level of motivation and optimism to work through the challenge and make that vision a reality. Now you're obviously listening to this podcast because you want to be a better leader. So here's a little coaching to help you along the way. This week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to have the audacity to dream about a big challenge you're facing as a leader, carve out 30 minutes on your schedule and get specific about what's next. test looks like when you overcome that challenge. What is different in the life of your team members? What a customers post when they write a review? What's the energy in the conference room like when you announce the next quarter's results, really give yourself a vivid picture of success? And then begin with the end in mind. I know it's going to inspire your team to tackle whatever you're facing. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders begin with the end in mind. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be