David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Marvin Ellison, CEO of Lowe's. Now, let me ask you a question. Have you ever taken over in a position after the previous guy or gal left under bad circumstances? If you have, then you know, those are some of the toughest situations to walk into. Now, Marvin is amazing for a lot of reasons. But get this in his 25 year career in every new role, he has taken over for someone who has been fired or forced out. Now, that's a man who's not afraid of a tough assignment. Marvin was actually born as the son of sharecroppers, and he has risen through the ranks with a ton of courage over the years, he took the jobs other people didn't want, because he knew that was how he could prove his abilities. Marvin is also one of the few African American fortune 500 CEOs in our country. And I can't tell you how honored I am to have him here. Let's jump right in and see what happens when we're brave enough to tackle even the toughest assignments

are and this is all about learning how you lead. And I'd like to start out by hearing how you spent your early days as the new CEO of Lowe's.

Marvin Ellison 1:37 

What will David you know, as you know, I had been in the home improvement industry for 12 years, working for the Home Depot. And then I took a Chairman CEO role in the turnaround of JC Penney, which I learned more from that experience than I did in my MBA program years prior. But what I was, but I had a unique opportunity to to come back into an industry that I love and which was home improvement. And I did something different. And I learned from my transition from Home Depot to JC Penney, and that is I jumped immediately in because I felt it was important for me to get a chance to look at the pace of the business during the holiday season. And so I had really no transition period between the two companies. And in retrospect, that was probably not the best decision when you're shifting, not only companies but industries. So when I decided to join Lowe's, I asked the board to give me a 30 day gap between leaving JCPenney and officially starting with Lowe's. And during that 30 day period, I decided to go out and try to hit all 15 geographic regions of the company, you know, just as a unannounced bystander visiting stores observing and just having casual conversation, you know, with the associates and customers, you know, as I just browse around, you know, the different parts of the country interacting. And I learned a tremendous amount about what was great about Lowe's and that was primarily the dedicated men and women that worked in the stores and how they will work in and persevering through so many limitations that a company our size should not have placed on our associate base, but also identify, you know, a lot of shortcomings. And so, you know, just imagine you're trying to get out within really It turned into a six week period, and trying to visit all 15 geographic regions around the United States within that timeframe. But it was an incredible lesson and learning process for me. And from that it allowed me to work with my newly developed leadership team to lay out, you know, our strategic framework on how we would transform the company.

David Novak 4:00 

You know, Marvin, I understand that, you know, your first day when you went out into the field, there was actually a group at the headquarters who had a sign out there for you ready to welcome you and you were out there out in the field, you know, so you went straight to where the rubber meets the road, which is always a powerful thing to do. Did you do that as well, not only to learn, but to shock the system and let them know that was what was really important to you in terms of who you need to focus on and, and that there was a new sheriff in town

Marvin Ellison 4:29 

and no, it really I'll be honest with you, it was it was really my attempt just just to learn I want it my first day on the job to feel like the first day of any associate in the company. And typically, their first day is in the stores trying to learn and to that point, you know, someone sent me a photo of a really a big digital sign they had at every entrance and they had a big photo of me, you know, welcoming our new CEO Oh, there was, you know, and I'm looking at that thinking, you know, that's a little ostentatious, you know, they'll be having a photo op. And I hope they're Sosa's believed I had nothing to do with that. But I'm also thinking, I have no intention of being in the office on my first day. And so when I communicate it, you know, to the HR team, that I would not physically be on the corporate campus. Instead, I want to go to a store and work at the protests, because I knew from my tours around the country that that was a huge opportunity that we had to figure out and fixed, their first recommendation was, well, that's great. We'll send a have a photo crew, you know, with our PR team to kind of document your entire first day because we think it'd be great to show to the associates and I told them, No, I don't want any cameras. I don't want anyone from media PR president, I just want to go and learn. And I want to spend time with the associates. I won't I don't want them to be intimidated, you know, from answering questions and just relaxing and having you good, you know, transparent, candid dialogue. And so it really was to learn it was to try to engage with the associates and looking at you know, my story, I started out in retail, as a $4.35 cent an hour part time employee working for target while I was going to the University of Memphis, you know, just in an attempt to pay for books and put gas in my car and help pay the rent. And that turned into, you know, a lifelong love affair with retail.

David Novak 6:37 

You know, you in those first six weeks at Lowe's, you learned a lot. What was the biggest surprise that you uncovered?

Marvin Ellison 6:44 

Well, the biggest surprise is how over a period of time, the previous management team had unintentionally taking all of what I would call the incentive, and the decision making and the courage away from from the field team. They just they felt like they had no empowerment, I give you a give you two great examples. So one day I show up in Bullhead, city, Arizona, and Bullhead City, Arizona is on the app is on Arizona and Nevada border. So I pop into the store, the average household income of this marketplace is roughly $35,000 a year. So this is this is not a high end marketplace from a household income. But but these are customers that depend on Lowe's. So walk in the store. And the first thing I see is a group of associates setting an endcap of deck stain. There's only one problem there are no decks in Arizona. It's all concrete. And so I'll walk a walk up to the associate who happened to be the store manager and I said introduce myself. So to his shock, the new CEO was in his store. And as a measure question, I said, I've been out of home improvement for about four years. But the last time I was in Arizona, I never remember seeing a deck. I thought all of the patios were concrete. He's what is right, Marvin, we have no decks in this market. I said, Well, why are we setting an end cap of deck stain, he said we that's the planogram. So the planogram came from the corporate office. And we're going to set the planogram. I said, even if you know as the store manager that the product will not sell, and customers won't buy it. He said, Marvin, you don't understand. Here at Lowe's, we do what we're told in the stores. And if I get a store visit from my district manager from someone at the corporate office, and we're not set to planogram, I will get in trouble. So we're going to set this planogram as prescribed. So we had so I took obviously took note of that. And so the next day I'm in I'm in Austin, Texas, it is 112 degrees outside. And I walk in the store and the first thing I see in the patio set is a fire pit. So I find the store manager and into my great fortune, the district manager was actually in the store, introduce myself and I have a very basic question. Why are we setting a display with a fire pit? And it is 112 degrees outside? And as you can imagine? The answer was because it's the planogram. And so from that it became painfully apparent to me that we had literally taken all the empowerment away from our frontline leaders to think and operate in a way that best serve the customer and obviously serve the company and our shareholders. And we had literally created windup toys, where they were they did what they were told we didn't want them to think we didn't want them to process. And so from that, David we created what we call and we shame Fully stole from other companies, Lowe's University and Lowe's University, we made a decision that we were going to bring in every single store manager all 2200 of them over a 18 month period and give them one week of cultural refreshment on how we expect you to lead at Lowe's. And in every one of those sessions, we did them once a week. And sometimes more than one session, within a week, I would go down and I would take one hour every week, and do a training session on effective leadership. And part of my leadership lesson was sharing those two examples. And challenging the team on what it takes to be a leader and the courage of being empowered, and how we would have their backs if they made a decision that they truly believe was in the best interest of the customer, and best interests of competing in the marketplace. And we cycled through all of our leaders. And what was so interesting is I would be in a class, and I would have a store manager there who had three years of tenure, three months of tenure and 27 years of tenure. So we did this on purpose, we did not want to do it by tenure, or in any way segregating people, by the time they spent at Lowe's, we felt it was powerful to to create classes that had a very broad list of people. But oh, not only that, but people who had differing timeframes of tenure and time with the company to foster really interesting conversation and debate within the classes. And that was part of our transformation from a cultural and from a leadership perspective.

David Novak 11:42 

That's absolutely fantastic. And, you know, so Marvin, you've been there now a couple years, and it's been a pretty tough time, obviously, with all the actions that have happened last last year. So, you know, what are you doing now to stay connected to the stores?

Marvin Ellison 11:56 

Well, you know, I've learned a couple of lessons starting out as an hourly associate, I remember vividly, when I would come in, and I would clock in at the time clock at Target, and posted by the time clock was an org structure, would photos of the CEO and the executive leadership team. And I would look at that photo and that org chart every day. And I had no personal connection with any person on that organizational chart, I'd never saw him in person that never heard their voice. I never communicated with him. And as a kid in college, working hard trying to make ends meet, I just would sit back and wonder, how would it be if an hourly associate like me, someone who had ideas, someone who had suggestions could actually get access to someone sitting in one of those positions of influence? Would they listen? And what would I learn about them. And so from that, I've tried to create an environment where I eliminate the communication filters between myself and the frontline team. And so a couple of ways that I do that. First, every single Friday, I have a personal message that I give to the company, every associate in the company, including our associates, in our buying offices in China, and in our our offices in India, in the message, you know, ranges from five to 10 minutes. And what I talk about are the events of the week, that impact the company, I talk about people I've met, who have done outstanding customer service, I share those stories. I talk about things in the news that are relevant to our associates, but I just have a personal conversation with them. And within that I share my email address. So if they have a question, or if they have an issue that's not being addressed, they know how to reach me directly. And I don't have anyone that manages those emails for me, I'll look at them, I'll forward them to the appropriate person to take a look at and trust me, my associates have now keenly become aware of how to reach me because I hear from them every single day, which is exactly what my intention was. So that's number one. Number two, is on on a monthly basis. I do a televised townhall, and obviously now is virtual, where we have people submit questions in or I take questions live, I do it for an hour. I don't see the questions in advance. Because I want to have an authentic conversation with the associates, whatever they ask if I can fit it into the allotted time. You're answering we just have good back and forth dialogue. What I've learned David, you know, even if the answer is no, as long as you're answering the questions, and you're being authentic, and you're having open dialogue, sources, appreciate that.

David Novak 14:52 

You know, as we were talking a little bit earlier, Marvin, you know, before he joined Lowe's, you were the chairman and CEO of JC Penney, and you had a major turnaround there. And you took JC Penney from losing, I think $5.64 a share to you're making 22 cents a chair, you generate positive cash flow, pay down a lot of debt. You did this all in four years, you're having this great success as a leader, what drove you to make the decision to leave at that time? Because you were on a roll?

Marvin Ellison 15:22 

Yo, David is a great question. It's a long story. I'll give you the short version. Your image, JC Penney, I'm totally committed to the continued turnaround model wife and I, and my at the time, 16 year old daughter, we love living in Dallas, my son had relocated, and he was going to school college in Texas. And so we were planning routes. And all of a sudden, I get contacted by one of the new board members, who's leading the search for the new CEO. This is a board member whom I'd worked with in the past, who, ironically enough, it was an activist investor. So it took a position in the Home Depot years prior, and I had a chance to meet him, he had a chance to meet me. And from that there was a lot of mutual respect for both of us. And to be quite honest with you, when he first reached out to me regarding the opportunity. I wasn't interested, I wasn't interested because it wasn't part of my plan. My plan was to come to JC Penney to do all I could to help turn the business around and try to work to be as much of a blessing for the employees of the company because they've gone through difficult periods with a CEO that really put the business on the brink and in previous years, and I had made a decision not to even discuss this Lowe's opportunity with my wife, because I didn't want her to think that that we had the potential from uprooting the family again. And so the short version is my wife and I have now been together for we'll be celebrating our 30th wedding anniversary this year. So we've been together for a long time. Congrats. Thank you. And so you know, I never keep anything from her. So I finally decided to let her know, look, there's an opportunity at Lowe's, I don't want you to get concerned. I'm not going to pursue it. You know, I want to be committed to seeing through this transformation here at JC Penney, so don't get concerned about the family being uprooted. So she looked at me and she had a very interesting response. She said, Well, I guess, I guess you've changed your commitment. And you've changed the mission that we've talked about, that we're on in this life that we live in, I said, What do you mean, she said, Well, you've always said that you will be driven, your career will be driven by going to the place where you can have the greatest impact on the largest number of people. And she said last time I checked, Lowe's has more employees, larger investment pays more shareholders and a greater market presence. So don't you believe that you can have a greater impact on a larger number of people at Lowe's, and you can have JC Penney, and this is from a woman who had no desire to move. Wow. And I'm credible. And I said to her, I suppose Sharon, you're right. That's what we've said. And I said, I didn't consider that I was more concerned about the family. And she said, Let me worry about the family. You look into this opportunity. Let's we'll pray about it. We'll we'll be led, you know, by religious faith, but let's understand what we're committed to in our commitment as being the greatest blessing to the largest number of people. And from that, you know, we decided to take a look at opportunity and and here I am.

David Novak 19:09 

I used to work at Pepsi and we absolutely fought coke day in and day out. And did you have any trepidation going back to the home improvement industry to Lowe's and competing against all the people you knew at Home Depot?

Marvin Ellison 19:22 

The short answer is yes. It's it was part of the reason why it was never part of my long term plan to end up at a competitive but I'll be very honest with you. I had that conversation obviously, with my wife as well. And we talked about it and here's the reality I gave Home Depot to upgrade yours. I have lifelong friends there. And when Home Depot made the decision in the CEO transition to move in a different direction. You know, I went to the Chairman CEO and actually to a allowed me to stay. And I was willing to stay and not pursue any other opportunities, if I could just have some level of role expansion just so I could make a greater contribution. And do every attempt I made to try to find a way to stay, it just didn't work out. So my departure from the Home Depot was obviously my decision. But it was something that I did begrudgingly, because I love the people more so than anything, and I want to be there. So as a process, you know, going back and competing against a former company that I love so much, it came down to a very simple analogy. I grew up as the middle child of seven kids. I had two older brothers. And we would go outside, almost every day in the summer and we compete on the basketball court, we compete in a lot of different sports. I still love them. But they were, you know, competitors. When we were out there on the field of play. I had two sisters, or three sisters, rather, and we would always compete playing chess, you know, we go at it, you know, we leave the chessboard set, and we come back and finish it on the weekend. I still love them. I still think the world love them. But you know, competition is great. And it's not personal.

David Novak 21:25 

You know, you started out as this for 35 hourly at Target. You come from a very humble background, you just talked about it large family, you know, how does this affect your, your thinking today, your background, your childhood? Well, I

Marvin Ellison 21:39 

think in a couple of ways. You know, my dad is my hero, and I'm blessed. And he's, he's still he's still alive. And with me, he's had some health issues. But but he is he is doing well. And I'm proud that I can pick up the phone and call him I can go in to Sam. But the reason why that's a relevant point is my dad never graduated from high school. He was raised by his great aunt and uncle, and they will raise on the farm. They were sharecroppers. And that's all he knew. But he had desires to do a lot more. But he ultimately had to drop out of high school because his great uncle became ill he had to get the crops in. And that weighed more on the relevance of the family than him staying in school and getting a high school diploma. He ultimately met my mother, they got married, started a family and he never decided to go back. But this is a man, along with my mother who raised seven kids. And when I was born, they were sharecroppers, and we're not talking about owning a farm, we're talking about, you know, the classic, Jim Crow era sharecropping, where you are leasing land, you are borrowing money, to buy seed, fertilizer, you putting your labor and and at the end of the season, you never get out of debt, because you never make enough to pay for the leased land. You never make enough to pay for the seed and fertilizer that you borrow. And so you're in perpetual debt. And it's almost your type of indentured servitude. And that's, and that's what my parents were doing for a living when I was born in 1965. And so the reason why that is relevant, is because my dad ultimately worked his way from the field because he found out that he could sell and he started selling life insurance. And back then the life insurance industry was very segregated. And so you could only sell he could into black communities door to door but he was he had a great gift of gab. He was a handsome guy, and he was really good at selling and so he worked his way from the cotton fields, from sharecropper to being a to being an insurance salesman to own his own a really small agency, and helped us to move from poverty, to lower middle class. But ultimately, you know, we felt we fell on hard economic times. And I remember at one point in my life, and this is not an exaggeration. For almost three years, he worked three jobs. He worked as an insurance agent, he worked on an overnight cleaning crew at a local supermarket, and he worked the lunch hour at Romana and as a busboy. He did that for almost three years, almost killed himself. But he did that because he refused to take government assistance. He felt like that he was an able bodied man. And if he was able to go get up and go to work, then he felt that others deserved the government assistance because as an able bodied man he wants to provide for his families. So why is that relevant to your question? Because when I go out to the stores, and I see associates, loading trucks, pushing carts, unloading trucks, mopping the floor, I see my parents I I see individuals who are trying to raise kids make ends meet, by taking on any job they can find fine, that is honest. And that allows them to do their part to help their families survive. And so I have an enormous amount of respect for all of these associates that I have at all levels, because they remind me of my parents, they remind me of me, you know, unloading trucks and mopping floors, and driving trucks and all the jobs I've had over my career. And so I have a lot of respect for what they have to say, I have a lot of respect for the life that they're living is one of the reasons why we try to be philanthropic as a company. It's also one of the reasons why, you know, we paid out over $800 million this year, and special bonuses and financial assistance, specifically for ally associates, because I really, and truly understand the life that they're living because I lived it for the majority of my life, seeing my parents struggle and having my own personal struggles. And, and I am glad that that's part of my life journey, because it gives me great perspective, you know, sitting in the current position on a man,

David Novak 26:16 

you know, Marvin, that that story really touches my heart because my mom and dad came up very humble background, always remember going down our stores of pizza at Taco Bell, and KFC and I'd see my mom and dad, they had a high school education, they worked their tail off, we lived in a trailer coming up. But man, they work their tail off. And these these people know their stuff. You know, if you just listen to him, you can you can gain a lot. So I really love that that story. You know, Marvin, you talked about authenticity in terms of your communication. When did you ever you know, to authenticity is a big buzzword these days. When did you? When did you get, you know, the sense of the importance of authenticity of being true to yourself as a leader?

Marvin Ellison 26:59 

You know, David is this is a great question. And I have to go back a lot of years. But this is a story that I've shared numerous times and management, training classes, I was working for target at the time, I was a store security manager. And I was in Memphis, Tennessee. And I happened to be in a new store we had just opened and it was myself and three peers in the same position, we were going through a series of audits to make sure that the store's operating procedures were being followed. And so we're taking a break. So we're in one of the offices and what as typically happens, you know, when, when for people, you're taking a break, you know, at that level, we were just complaining about everything that the company was doing wrong. I mean, we had issues with pay and benefits and compensation, we had issues with systems, we had all types of concerns. And we were there just venting about how things should be a lot better. And within a couple of minutes of us kind of commiserating in the office, the phone rings, and someone alerts us that the Vice President for our function has showed up in the store unannounced. And this is a true story. And he wanted to come in and meet us because he found out I got four people from my department in the store, what a great opportunity for me to do a quick, you know, feedback session. So he comes in, and he meets us introduces himself and we're like, we're totally stunned because me Memphis was way off the beaten path. And, you know, the corporate office was minutes, Minneapolis, Minnesota. And so he was there. And the first question he asked after introducing himself was, look, give me some feedback on how I can help, what's working, what's not, I just want to take advantage of being here to understand if there are any issues that I can address for you. And of course, I mean, we got issues fresh on my mind, we just spent the last 30 minutes, you know, listing out a litany of issues that we will concern with. And before I could say anything, you know, my peers jumped out and said, Nope, things are great. We love working here, you know, thank you for all that the company is doing, you know, to make this, you know, a great company, for us to work and I'm thinking to myself, well, that's not true. But these guys were more tenured than I was. So I was I figured that maybe they were just being more politically astute than me. So I just probably should shut up and just just listen. But they kept pulling it on, you know, and he kept asking, and no one would give him feedback. And I just couldn't take any longer. And I just raised my hand and said, Look, I got one issue. And I said, there's a new check acceptance system that is really not working. We've gotten a lot of customer complaints. And and I'm not sure that you're aware, but I'm concerned that if we don't address this, you'll we're going to lose customers and he wants to he wanted more information. So I share more information. I gave him more examples. And he paused for a second so let me make a phone call. So he turned around, he made a phone call and my three periods gave me the evil eye because they're thinking you got us all in trouble. If you're telling this guy about this issue, and he turns around, he said, Well look, a couple of things. He said, I just made a call, I found out that, that this system that you're concerned about is actually a pilot. And I just call it a corporate office. And I asked him to shut it down until we can learn more about the negative customer applications. And he looked at me and he said, Marvin, I've been out visiting stores all week. And you're the first person to have the courage to tell me how bad the system was operating. He said, so I would like to come and visit you at your store today before I go back to the corporate office, and spend a little time getting to know you. So this was a breakthrough for me, because I am way off the beaten path. I'm in Memphis, Tennessee. And now my vice president of my function wants to actually spend time with me. So he comes to visit me my stores is in the most urban area of Memphis. And he comes out to visit he spends time, it was a great visit, we shake hands, and I'm thinking what a great day. And I believe nothing would ever come of it. Well, two weeks later, I get a invitation from the corporate office to be a part of the company's newly formed Diversity Committee. And I was recommended by that Vice President to come in. And so I fly to Minneapolis a second time in my life I've ever been on an airplane, I fly to Minneapolis, I'm a part of that committee. While I'm up there, I've meet executives from the Florida market, target was just opening up in Florida. They were impressed with me. And the next thing I knew I'm promoted to a district level position, working in Florida.

David Novak 31:39 

So really just standing up for what you believe having the courage to share your thoughts really kind of unlocked your career track right

Marvin Ellison 31:46 

here, David, I learned from that event is that we have two choices as leaders, we can we can stand out or we can blend in. And I decided you to stand out not because I wanted to be recognized not because I wanted this leader to remember me because I want to solve a problem. I mean, I was really concerned with the issue. And I felt that we have someone in our store that has the ability to hopefully solve this. And so I decided to stand out for the right reasons. And in from that, the trajectory of my career change. I ended up five years later working at the corporate office, guess who I was reporting to our reporting to that vice president because he tried to track my career until the day he retired. And so that's just one of those stories that taught me the lesson about being authentic, about being courageous, but also having your facts and being able to have recommendations on how you solve problems.

David Novak 32:51 

You know, your business cold at a you you've been in retail for you know, for a long time, but you really know your business, you're really passionate about it. And you've delivered consistent results throughout your career. What's your view of of the jobs that you've taken as you've climbed the ladder?

Marvin Ellison 33:09 

Well, I mean, I have, I have a really interesting career path. And, and you could best describe my career path in life as a study of resilience, and taking tough assignments. And let me tell you something else, that's a little known fact, I was thinking about the other day, in the last 25 years, every position that I've ever accepted, including my current position, I'll replace someone who was fired or forced out last 25 years. In addition to that, I can recall at least 10 separate opportunities that I was passed over for promotion. And in most cases, I felt I deserved a job. So I've had a lot of ups and downs in this very, very blessed career that I've had. But resilience is one of the key hallmarks alarm here today, because I've had lots of opportunities to just put my head down and, and feel sorry for myself. And I've had a lot of tough assignments. And I learned early on, that the best way to move forward is sometimes to take assignments that no one else wants, that no one else is attracted to. That people look looking frowned upon because they don't think that there's a pathway to success. But when you don't have sponsors, when you don't have an Ivy League education, when you don't have mentors with influence, results matter. And so I've taken a lot of those tough assignments because I want to demonstrate that I can leave so and I don't regret it. I mean, it's allowed me to learn a lot of skills, obviously make mistakes along the way. But it's kind of hard to me and I allowed me to learn a lot about leadership and a lot about how to solve problems. And and I wouldn't trade one day because it's preparing me for my current assignment.

David Novak 35:10 

How do you think about failure? You know, you've had some ups and downs, obviously. But you know, when you think about your organization, how do you how do you think about failure?

Marvin Ellison 35:20 

Well, you, to me, failure is something that you shouldn't frown upon. It's, it's one of the best ways to learn. And, and what I say to myself into my team is, you know, the only way you don't fail if you don't get out of bed in the morning, because you're going to, you're going to make mistakes, you're going to have disappointments, and you're going to have failures. The question is, what do you do about it? What did you learn from it? How will it help you to be a better leader? How will it allow you to be more effective when a similar situation happens? You know, in the future, and I'll tell you real quick story when I was a district level leader, you know, at Target, I interviewed for original position, and it's one of those situations where everyone tells you the job is yours. You know, this is just a formality. And of course, I didn't get the job. So I go in I interview, I'm devastated that the job is actually given to someone who I am mentoring, you know, someone who is seeking me for for counsel and advice actually gets the position that they didn't even apply for. And so when I go to my functional VP, and I asked the question, what happened? You know, he explained to me that you're in the process was a very influential senior vice president, who simply didn't believe I was ready. And was the absolute reason why I didn't get the job because no one had the political clout to override his objection. And so I'm devastated by this. And of course, I'm thinking, why doesn't the guy like me? So I go through all the, the obvious thoughts in my head, but then I decided to do something different. And this is this is learning from failure. I decided to pick up the phone, call the Senior Vice President and asked him would he be willing to mentor me? Because I was, I was interested to understand through what lens? Was he looking at me through? And what did he see that others did not see? And what could I learn from it? And from that became one of the most interesting leadership learnings of my career because I spent time with him and he was gracious enough to accept, you know, my request, although he was very surprised that I was asking, and, and from that, he taught me one critical lesson. And he said to me, when Marva Warren reasons why you did not get my support for this position, is because you have a history of always being the loudest voice in the room, you always try to have an answer to every question. And he said, You have to understand when to talk, when to listen, when to lead, and when to follow. And, and that was a great lesson. And so from his critique, you know, I worked hard to improve my leadership, improve my engagement with people understanding how to not be so dominant, you know, in meeting settings, and when the next promotional opportunity came about, this guy went from my greatest attracted to my greatest promoter, and as time as life would have it, use go years go by, and he reaches out to me when I'm at the Home Depot and at JC Penney, and I'm helping him with career issues that he's dealing with, you know, at this point in his life. So it's interesting how our careers converge is is, for me, it was a great learning. It was It was humbling. But I teach a lot of, you know, my team members and young managers, I'm mentoring a coaching that you have to try to learn from every failure because it's oftentimes not just about you, it's about how you're perceived. And it's about understanding how you can continue to get better. So that's just one of those many examples of failure that I tried to learn from

David Novak 39:34 

you or even as you were coming up as a, you know, African American executive, you know, I'm sure you many times you were the the only black person in the in the room, you know, what's that like? And what can leaders learn from that?

Marvin Ellison 39:49 

What David is it's been a it's been a it's been an interesting journey. And I think what you can learn it goes back to what I said previously, you can decide to stand out All blend in. And I'll tell you, I like I got 1000 stories. I love these stories. So you know, I'm in Memphis, Tennessee, and I get promoted to the corporate office in Minneapolis, Minnesota, I never worked in a corporate office before. And back then it was a, you know, shirt and tie a suit and tie, corporate environment. And so I'd go up. And, you know, and I'm kind of trying to transition into this new environment. And to your question, you know, during the 90s, during that time, there was virtually no diversity. At the corporate office, there's no one that looks like me to very few people who has spent a lot of their career in the field. And there's nobody from the south. So I'm literally looking around. And I believe and feel like I am the only person in that entire corporate environment that looks that thinks or has a background like me, and I remember about four months into this, I go home, my wife is pregnant, we're up there by herself. And she's asking me, how's it going to work your poor, low stress? And I said, Well, you know, Sharon, the job isn't that difficult. from the technical perspective, I said, I know what I'm doing. I said, I just don't feel like I fit in. I said, I don't feel like culturally, this is a place where I can be successful. And she looked at me and she said, Well, let me give you some advice, why don't just try being yourself. Just relax, and just be yourself and see how that works out. And David, I remember something that my dad had said to my siblings, and it seems like 100 times, and he would say, you know, we may not have the nicest car, we may not live in a nice house, you may not wear the nicest clothes every day. But always remember, no one can beat you being you. No one can beat you being you. So whenever you feel as though that you're not achieving the thing that you believe you deserve. Just focus on being the best you can be. And I just give my dad credit for so many, brilliant, you know, points of wisdom that that he gave myself and my siblings. And so in that room, my wife reminded me of that teaching. So I decided, You know what, let me be me. So, you know, I had changed the way I dress, you know, because most of the white guys are wearing khaki pants and penny loafers. And you know, and I converted to fit I want to fit in. But what I realized is that by fitting in, I was actually working two jobs, I was working the job I was being paid to do. And then I was working a job being someone that I wasn't. And so So I was doing double duty while everyone else was doing single duty. And I decide, You know what, I'm going to dress professional, but I'm going to dress the way I'm comfortable. So yeah, I'd wear a shirt and a tie. But I would work in the style that I felt best fit, my personality, my ethnicity, and my style. And I knew to feel and I would. So I decided to go up there. And when I sat in a meeting, if there was something that I felt didn't support to feel, I would raise that point, but I'd raise it with facts, and I would raise it in a very constructive way. And then I felt like you know what, I'm the only black person up here, let me provide some diversity perspective, to ensure we're making the right decisions for this consumer group. And so I would share thoughts and those ideas about the black community in ways we could be more effective. And, and before I knew it, people will gravitate gravitating toward me, they wanted to know what I thought they were inviting me to be a part of project groups and focus groups, because I no longer showed up as a commodity. You know, when you are like everyone else, you are a commodity you commoditizing yourself. But I just when I decided to stand out, people were attracted to that, because they were interested in what I had to say because it was unique, it was refreshing, and it was scarce. And I learned from that, you know, as a as a black man in corporate America, as a black executive operating in a world that I don't have a lot of people that look like me, the best thing I can do is be the best possible most authentic me that I can be in a way that is again, authentic, in a way that is in a way that progressive, but in a way that is educational that helps make the organization better by bringing my unique learnings, my unique life and my unique perspective, you know, to the conversation so it can hopefully allow us to make better decisions that that was a great lesson that I learned and I've never forgotten that lesson.

David Novak 44:51 

I love that idea of being the best you you could be you know, I wish I had a better father. He's a very wise person. No question about that. You know, and you In 2020, we all witnessed the, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd and, you know, all the issues around social injustice have really come to the forefront as a black leader. Do you feel that puts more pressure on you in any, any way? And what are you doing about it? Has it has it affected your leadership?

Marvin Ellison 45:21 

Well, I think, look, I think there's an obligation it for lack of a better word that, that I have to make sure that I educate the people around me about these issues. And so the first thing that I did after the world and myself viewed that horrific video was to bring my entire senior leadership team together, and have a conversation about race in America, have a conversation about policing, and to share some stories with them, of things that's happened to me, happened to my son, who's a young black man, and happened to people in my family. So they can understand that this is not simply an isolated incident, but it's a systemic issue that exists in our society. But in addition to that, I wanted them to understand that we all play a role in making this country better. And part of the role we play is by having a willingness to create a comfortable environment to have uncomfortable conversations. And I was given him an example of creating a comfortable environment to have an uncomfortable conversation. Because too many of them was the first time that any black leader had sat them down and had a very candid conversation about how this not only not how this affects society, let's talk about how this affects me. Let me give you specific examples, anecdotes, stories about things that I've personally experienced. And then let's talk through these things. And then my question to them, is, how often are you sitting down with people on your team that looks like me, that are black, Latino, etc, that may have a different view of the world and the world may have a different view of them, are you sitting down and having conversations with them about what they are experiencing, and what we can do what you can do to help them possibly to solve and resolve these issues. And so part of what I did is I spoke out publicly, but but more of my time was spent on two areas. And that is trying to make sure as a company that Lowe's understands and values diversity at all levels. And also to make sure that I continue to educate my children, because they have to live in a society, they have to operate in a society. And I want them to understand what it means to them, and to try to provide some level of wisdom and education to them. And that's what I've tried to do. Like I'm blessed, and honored, and privileged to be one of a very small number of black CEOs of public companies, specifically fortune 500 companies. But I'm also wise enough to know that because the number is so small, it screams missed opportunity. There are so many talented, capable leaders out there of different ethnicities that are being overlooked. Because the assessment process is flawed. And it's not understanding of picking up leadership traits that people like me bring to the table each and every day. And I'm just blessed and honored that the board and the decision makers at Lowe's soffit to give me this opportunity. And I'm even more grateful that we put an incredible team of leaders together, and we are moving this business forward. And we're making a difference in the lives of a lot of people.

David Novak 49:14 

Well, you're obviously doing that. And you know, hats off to you for that and your team. And it's been really enlightening to have this conversation with you, Marvin, I want to have a little bit of fun before we before we break this off. So I got a lightning round of questions. I want to ask you real quick. What three words best describe you

Marvin Ellison 49:33 

have faith, family and company?

David Novak 49:37 

What gives you the most joy at work?

Marvin Ellison 49:41 

Teaching training and engaging with the associates.

David Novak 49:45 

Your biggest pet peeve?

Marvin Ellison 49:47 

Don't be late.

David Novak 49:48 

If you could be one person for a day, who would it be and why?

Marvin Ellison 49:52 

You know what, David? I'm a I'm a I live with charm lives. I got a beautiful wife of 30 years to great It's my dad went from being a sharecropper to seeing one of his kids run to Fortune 500 companies. There's not a lot of people I'm willing to trade with.

David Novak 50:09 

Like that Kayne brown song. I'm already got Heaven on Earth Theory. That's great. What's something about you that few people would know?

Marvin Ellison 50:17 

I'm a, I'm a naturally extreme introvert.

David Novak 50:21 

Wow, I would have never guessed that. But do you have any hidden talents.

Marvin Ellison 50:26 

I'm a bass player. I'm a musician, my family. When I grew up, we had a gospel singing group. And we traveled all over the southeast made a few albums and records and I work in the studio work in college as one of my many ways of financial support. So I'm a bass player and I have both my kids are really good musicians also, and I got some brothers who are world class musicians

David Novak 50:52 

do you do you perform at Lowe's and the big social events there?

Marvin Ellison 50:55 

I did. I've performed last year with a group of other officers that we get together and surprise all of our store managers at our at our annual sales meeting. And we had had a great time and I made them the commitment that if we made sales plan for 2020, I would force all of my direct reports to join me on stage to perform and and so it's going to be a real interesting event when I make that happen.

David Novak 51:21 

I'm sure it'll happen to you know, and and, you know, it's it's interesting that you know, you you've got this great musician background and, you know, you seem to have a little bit of self deprecating humor, how important do you think that is, as a leader?

Marvin Ellison 51:36 

Look, I think is very important. Like I told the team coming out of 2020, you know, we're gonna spend a lot of time here at work 2021, we're going to dedicate a lot of our energy, we're going to spend your hours away from our family, we may as well enjoy it. So it's good. It's good to laugh. It's good to stop and smell the roses. And it's even better to be a blessing to the people around you. So I try to keep it light. We have, you know, tough decisions to make. We were running a big company. But I think it's probably not a smart idea to take yourself too serious.

David Novak 52:11 

I noticed another little known fact about you is you were Father of the Year 2017. So congratulation for that. That's obviously very important. Do you have any tips for people on work life balance? I mean, you obviously have been able to do both, you know, build your career and have a great family. Well,

Marvin Ellison 52:29 

David, I have a really, I have a list of very simple philosophies. And one is this, there's one surefire way for me to know what is important to you and your life. And I simply look at your calendar, if it's not on your calendar is probably not important to you. And so you can look at my calendar, and you're gonna see, every birthday, every anniversary, you're gonna see, back when my kids were in high school, you got to see, you know, sports events, you go see Parent Teachers conferences, you're gonna see musical recitals. I never missed a parent teacher's conference. I never miss a recital. I never miss a sporting event of any of my kids and all the various jobs that I've had, because my dad never missed hours because he was a salesman, so his schedule was flexible. My mom worked at a factory so she couldn't get off work. But my dad had enough flexibility that he he attended every parent teachers conference, and my parents attended every sporting event, and every other, you know, event that we had as kids and I believe I owe old that Alicia, my kids and it's all about prioritization is all about scheduling. And it's all about balance. And when people say there's no such thing as work balance, work life balance, I say hogwash. It is absolutely true. I rarely meet someone that has a miserable home life that has a great work life. I think there I think balance is required in order for you to sustain both or in a way that you can live a productive life.

David Novak 54:03 

You know, I you know, I always felt that your the results that you generate helped you get balanced, do you what's your view on that?

Marvin Ellison 54:11 

I would say absolutely. At the end of the day. If if you're a store manager and you have two assistant managers and one person is never on time, never Mr. Expectations, results are poor. And you have another that's always on time, takes, you know, additional assignments, leads well has great results and someone comes in and wants to get, you know, emergency time off to go do something with their family. I guarantee you, you're more likely to give it to the person with outstanding results than the person that's never delivering on expectations. And so I'm a huge believer that performance is the great equalizer. And so for me, I always focus first on performance but because if I can perform at a high level, if I can deliver results, then I expect to have preferential treatment from my boss based on the fact that they see me as a as an indispensable part of the team versus the alternative. So performance absolutely creates work life balance.

David Novak 55:18 

You know, and Marvin, you've mentioned faith a couple of times in this conversation, you're a man of faith, and you're public about it. And, you know, that takes a bit of courage to What's your perspective on on faith in the workplace?

Marvin Ellison 55:33 

Well, look, you know, David, is pretty straightforward, you know, my faith grounds me, it defines who I am, I believe that it's important for each individual, to make their own decision about how they will reflect their faith at work, and how they reflected and how they live their lives, you know, for me, you know, I just go by the mantra of just letting my light shine. And people can see me, they can see, the joy that I operate with, they can see the success I've been blessed and fortunate to have, they can see my family life, they can see my work life. And from that, if they want to know why I have this joy, why my success, you know, has been relatively consistent. Although I've had plenty of life's challenges, why I'm always a glass half full, I'll be more than happy to share with them that is primarily grounded in my faith. I don't think you need to go around preaching, I don't think you need to go around, trying to force your beliefs on individuals. But I am perfectly fine and acceptable with anyone have any faith of allowing that to be their their grounding factor in who they are, and how they operate and allowing that to drop their belief system. And I made a promise to God a long time ago that if he blessed me to continue to perform and to reach your levels in the corporate world have influenced that I was going to be true to who I am. But I was going to also make sure that I'd be a good steward to the business, and that I drive all the necessary results and take care of people because at the end of the day, that's what I'm paid to do unpaid to create shareholder value, to create a great company for Sosa's, to work, to operate with integrity, and to make sure as a company that we are one of the best performing in the marketplace, and I can do all those things, you know, lead with my faith and continue to make my family a priority.

David Novak 57:43 

Well, Marvin, I can tell you, your your light has definitely been shining this past of 45 minutes or so. And I really, really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. And congratulations on your success at Lowe's, you are driving shareholder value, you're getting that business really moving forward. And you've got a great team. So congratulations. And thanks again.

Marvin Ellison 58:04 

It's a pleasure to talk to you. And again, I want to thank you for your commitment to leadership development. It is something that I admire so much. I wish you well. And again, and thank you for acknowledging the team that I have here. Because you know, as a former CEO, nothing can happen without a great group of men and women around you. So God bless you and have a great rest of 2021.

David Novak 58:36 

Now, look, we all face tough situations. But the hard truth is most people shy away from them, or just avoid them altogether. And that's natural. But man, I really admire how Marvin just grabs those moments by the horns. And Marvin teaches us the courage it takes to stand up and stand out in those tough situations may be exactly what we need to make our market work this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I want you to consider something, is there an issue in your organization that keeps getting swept under the rug because no one is willing to address it? What would it look like if you just stepped up and tackle that challenge? To bring it to the attention of the people around you to bring facts and constructive ideas for a real solution? Now I know that's a big question. Heck, it may be way bigger than your week. But I hope it gets you thinking about the courage that we all need to have as leaders to tackle the tough assignments the way that Marvin has throughout his career. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is that the great leaders tackle the tough assignments. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode. that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be