David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. And today's guest is Jack Nicklaus, who is widely regarded as the best golfer to ever play the game. I mean, does this man even need an introduction? Of course not. He won 117 professional tournaments over his 44 year career. And that includes six wins at the Masters, five PGA championships for US Open titles, and three British Open titles. Good grief, this guy is on another planet. But his legendary status doesn't stop with his playing career. He's gone on to design world renowned courses and build a fantastic brand. He and his wife Barbara had done just a tremendous amount of philanthropic work for children's health. And he has such a humble attitude through it all, in spite of all the success he has, there are about a zillion things that Jack can teach us about leadership. But one thing that really strikes me, and one thing that you're really going to learn that's very important, is how he's just as eager to learn from his wins as he is from his losses. Now, we all know and someone said this, someone brilliant, I wish it would have been me. Failure is a great teacher. But success can be too. When we have a winning moment. We don't want to just high five each other and move on. It's important to understand why it worked, so that we can do more of it. And you're about to learn how now from a guy who's done a ton of it. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Jack Nicklaus.

I can't wait to get your your insights jack on leadership. And thanks for taking the time to be with us. My pleasure, David. You know, Jack, I always like to start at the beginning. Tell us about your upbringing.

Jack Nicklaus 2:13 

Well, I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. My dad is a pharmacist, and he had a drug store on the highest state university campus. So I grew up on the campus for the first nine years, and my dad broke his ankle. And he had three operations on it, and they finally ended up fusing his ankle. And the doctor told him Is it Charlie says you need to take up something where you're going to walk, otherwise you're gonna, you know, end up in a wheelchair. And so he's he played golf as a kid that hadn't played for probably 1520 years. And he said, so we decided to take up golf and we moved out to a suburb called Upper Arlington. And he opened a drugstore out in Upper Arlington, and we're joined sowed a country club, and he couldn't make a game with anybody because he couldn't walk. So he took me along, I carried the bag. And I was 10 years old at the time. And he would play one hole and I would sort of chip around, fool around and he finally said to me, if you'd like to learn how to play this game, well, my dad told me to ask him about every every sport. My dad played, played professional football, he was a football basketball baseball player in Iowa State. And he was a was a city tennis champion. So he was a good athlete. And so he introduced me to everything. And Chris Golf was just another sport that he introduced me to. And so happened that that year was 1950. And I said I was 10 years old. It was happen to be the first year that Jack grout came to cyoa and grounded the assistant pro Glen garden in Fort Worth, where Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson grew up as young boys. And also that was the same year that the PGA Championship was held at Sahota. So I had a double whammy with Jack Brown and the PGA Championship. I'll come in and buy Ted's here. And so I got me excited about playing the game of golf. Well, I played other sports and in golf and ended up being my sport, more by process of elimination. I was pretty good football player and played quarterback in linebacker did all putting in place kicking. And as I started into high school, I was still playing. I was playing National Junior tournaments and national amateur and I qualified for those so they start reading the football season. And I think it broke my dad's heart but he I quit football then and actually largely to a fella named Woody Hayes. When he was a customer of my dad's drugstore and and he came in the store. He says he said he said what do you what ask you a question. He said, the coach football coach is all over jack to play football at Upper Arlington. And he says, What do you think he says? He says, Charlie, he says, I've seen your boy do lots of things good athletes and he can do lots of things. He says that the talent that he's got in golf is as you keep him as far away by sport as you can. When you were a kid I understand Have you worked at the pharmacy with your dad? I started where he was 10 years old as a shop. Shop. Boy,

David Novak 5:04 

tell me what you learned from that experience. I

Jack Nicklaus 5:06 

learned that didn't want to do it. That was part was for sure. But I never liked the holidays David. And the reason I didn't like the holidays and Thanksgiving Christmas spring bacon summers, I was in the drugstore working because that was my dad's busiest times. And so I started in there when I was 10 years old. I became a Prentice pharmacist at about 15 years old. I went to college to become a pharmacist.

David Novak 5:27 

Now did you go to did you want to be a pharmacist to follow on your dad's

Jack Nicklaus 5:31 

I wanted to be a pharmacist because my dad was a pharmacist. And that's what most of my friends did is in those days. You know, my dad was my best friend. He was my, my, my idol. My mentor, and my dad that was good enough for my dad was good enough for me. So. So I went in, I went into Ohio State and I went through three years of pre pharmacy, and I was getting ready to go into pharmacy school. And he said, check, why do you want to go to pharmacy license because Dad, you're a pharmacist, he says, he said, but you can't use your golf, you know, behind the counter. He said, You know, you need to go where you can actually use your golf, whether you play professionally or play as an amateur, you need to really use your golf. So I switched majors whenever the Business College got into she became insurance major, started selling insurance. Actually, I was the youngest youngest person ever licensed in the state of Ohio to sell insurance on my 20th birthday, really a good salesperson. Now. I've been and I hated it. Because I'm here trying to sell life insurance to my fraternity brothers who needed like a hole in the hill. It was it I did not like it at all.

David Novak 6:28 

When did you first realize that you wanted to be a professional golf,

Jack Nicklaus 6:32 

I love playing golf. And I wanted to be the best I could be not necessarily that I thought about being the best. I just want to be the best I could be. And so the only way I could do that is to play professionally. And so because that goes the best players play that way. That's your you got to play against the best if you want to be the best. And so that's what I did. And the fall of man, I was selling insurance back in 1961. I was making about $30,000 a year. That's a lot of money back a lot of money back in 1961. Out of what that what what did you say in your first professional golf 21 $33.33

Unknown Speaker 7:09 

that insurance I'm pretty good that I didn't

Jack Nicklaus 7:11 

win. But anyway, that year when I turned pro, I was interviewed, they said what do you think will be a successful year for you? I said, Well, I think if I could make $30,000 I'd had a pretty successful year. And of course, a lot of the older processes at that young kid he thinks he could make $30,000 After Well, I made about 100 And I don't know 100 I want I want about 6060 Some on the regular tour and I won some overseas I won the World Series A golf which was 50,000. So I want to ask you 1000 But anyway, I exceeded my, my, my goal.

David Novak 7:43 

You know, I want to go back to your father for sure. Because you said that he was your best friend. And he really obviously he ran that pharmacy and did that. Well. What did you learn from him just from the way how he did his job?

Jack Nicklaus 7:57 

Well, my dad, my dad never met it met a stranger. He always had a smile on his face. He always took his hand out and gave him a firm handshake which he taught me. He was he played a lot of sports. So he taught me sportsmanship. And I watched I watched the way he handled himself the way he was liked. Everybody like everybody like Charlie, that was that was his name. And, and Charlie was just he was just he was just a good guy. And he never was that good a golfer. I mean, he was he got down to maybe a four but he would never really hit most the time he's around a 10 to 12 which is still a pretty darn good player. But he you know, he just he loved to compete a love to be part of but but he loved being part of what I was doing. Wow. And so they get when we're working in the pharmacy. And we've got so restart to see right around when I was about 13 years old. He could see his you know, he says let's sort of knock it off here. Let's go you and I go play nine holes of golf and we started doing that. And I'll never forget the first time I broke 70 I was 13 and we knocked it off at four o'clock and went went from the pharmacy in the summertime and we went over to the side and I shot 35 The front nine my lowest score previously was 74 and I said okay, dad, yeah dad I can break somebody for two days and let's play the back. Now can't do that. It's a promise mom we'd be home for dinner. I'll come on dad says no, no. I said I tell you what though. So if we rush home real quick, we may be able to come back here and get that back nine in. So we rushed home grab dinner and about 30 About 30 seconds you know, we rushed right back and we got around to the 18th hole and 18 till Saturday was a par five in those days. And I hit a driver and I don't know what I hit but I hit it on the green about 35 feet from the hole and they had no says he had the sprinkler hoses that the hose on the ground. And so we pulled the hose back and I had about a 35 foot putt as is pitch dark and I knocked it in the hole for an eagle and shot 60 die. And so, you know my dad saw that and he So I and I qualified for the National juniors that year we went to, to southern hills and Tulsa. And I went to the fourth round. And, you know, he just saw some good things that were going on. And so my dad was being an athlete, he pushed me in everything, he introduced me and encouraged me. But he also wanted me to understand the value of $1. And wouldn't understand the value of work ethic. And so he always had his nose to Grindstone he did his work, but it also, you know, when he when he got attached to play, he went out and played. But my dad was always, as I say, he was a hard working guy that was from the Midwest that he was brought up. His father was a, a boilermaker, on the, on the CNO railroad. And when he was probably I don't just a teenager, he had two other brothers. And his father took him down to the where he worked, which probably 120 30 degrees is making these boilers for the, for the engines. And he says, boys, I brought you down here, because this is what I don't ever want to see, you have to do. Wow, that's a great story. And my dad became a pharmacist, his younger brother became a pharmacist and his older brother became a dentist.

David Novak 11:13 

Wow. You know, Jack, you're such a accomplished guy. And you're such a winner, you know, you won more majors than anyone 18. And then the record six masters are looking at your record, what really blows me away is that you finish second 19 times in the majors and 39 times, you were so consistent. What advice can you give to others on on? How do you how do you get so consistently? Excellent?

Jack Nicklaus 11:41 

Well, first of all, I think being prepared is probably the most important thing. In any walk of life. You can't walk into a business meeting, you can't walk into anything as a salesman or anything, if you're not prepared. And I prided myself on being prepared to play when I was ready to play wanted to play. And so as I went in each of those majors, I really geared myself early in the year for the Masters and I practice some courses that I thought were courses that would help me for Augustine. And so when I got to guess I was ready to play Augusta. And so being prepared, being ready. And being focused on on those events were something that that I really prided myself on. And, you know, if you're not prepared, you're not going to you're not going to perform. And so I think my consistency came because of my desire to focus where I wanted to focus of where I thought was important. And I did that throughout my career. I always remember where I learned a pretty darn good lesson. I think it was 1985 I was done playing most of my career. And we were playing at Oak tree in Oklahoma. And it really didn't suit my I wasn't really working that hard at my golf game. At that point in time, I was still I was working for ABC doing television, and played in the tournament. And I didn't prepare properly and I missed the cut. Now the only thing worse than missing the cut is to have to stay around on the weekend and talk about everybody else playing in the tournament while you're watching, and so anyway, as as was fitting I think, on Friday night after I missed the cup, we went to McDonald's and present as a battle it was worth as a hamburger that that night. And Barbara that night she went in and she she saw a little cup that was private and one of the sippy meals were sippy cup or whatever it was. And the next morning I had a cup of coffee sitting there and then this little cup and said there's no excuse for not being properly prepared. And I barber

David Novak 13:41 

credit.

Jack Nicklaus 13:44 

And you know, I say you know, she's so right. And it's so easy to be properly prepared. Okay, guys, that when you see basketball and football, you see these guys are not ready to play. And they have bad games, you should never have a bad game. And we could only play the game one week apart usually. And you should be prepared each week to be able to play in that game. And did I have some bad tournaments? Yeah, but not very many. Because I prepared one player

David Novak 14:10 

that I know you do admire because I follow you on Twitter is you really admire Tom Brady? Oh, absolutely. And Tom Brady told me in my podcast with him that he just loves it when he can come from behind which is obvious. I mean, sure. Is it so well? Did you prefer playing with a lead? Or did you like coming from behind what

Jack Nicklaus 14:28 

I was never when I found a great leader. Although I think I lead in 12 majors, and I 110 of the 12 that I was leading it and going into the last round. But I didn't mind being right even or a shot behind going into the last round. Because then I knew that I really had work to go forward rather than trying to protect something.

David Novak 14:48 

Did your mindset change if you were doing versus behind? I talk about the differences

Jack Nicklaus 14:53 

I hated I hated that mindset that I that I was that. I felt like I was ahead. I had to protect it. I mean, Tiger Woods is bad. Unbelievable mindset, when tire gets a hit, he not only wins by 468 10, he just keeps he keeps on going, I have great admiration for the way he finished his golf tournaments. And I didn't do that, well, although I went, Oh, I won, you know, for number two was by 68799 shots, that kind of stuff. But that was not my normal mode. My normal mode is I didn't really care by about how many I won by, I want to just win and put myself in that position. Now, you know, I always took a philosophy, I think it's a little bit of a previous question you ask a little bit of philosophy is that all you can do is do your best. And if you prepare properly, and give it your best effort, I mean, there's 144 guys usually played in that field. If you get beat, somebody just played better. And you shouldn't, it shouldn't ever be embarrassed or ashamed, or anything else. As long as you've given us your best effort. A lot of times, you're somebody who does better than you did. And so maybe that's the reason why I never was really upset if I did for the second or third. As long as I gave it my best effort. If I didn't give it my best ever, like I talked about Oklahoma City, I didn't, then I was mad at myself. But I never I never recall that because I was well past my prime by that time, then I didn't give it my best effort. You

David Novak 16:17 

know, as good as you are. Jackie did lose a few times, you know, we always reach out what's the best way to handle that that loss or in business or any adversity? What have you learned about? Well,

Jack Nicklaus 16:27 

you know, I'll give you a little story I Rory McIlroy came to me when he was about 19 years old, when he was out here playing at the Honda tournament. And somebody said, Why don't you call Jack and go over and sit down, have lunch with him? And maybe he might have been 2519 or 20. And he said, Ask Jack questions. And so Roy came over, we sit down, and he hadn't won in about a year. And he says I just can't finish I really have a hard time finishing this I get I get so uptight, you get so worked up with it. I said I can't I can't get I can't get myself finished. And I said well, Roy says you got to understand who you are, and what your ability is, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. And you've got to understand that you know, the other fellas out there having the same problem as you are. And patience is the biggest virtue you can have that you know, you need to go out. And you know, and go out and play and just be patient with what you're doing. And you know, if you're being patient as good a player as you are, and all of a sudden you're gonna knock yet a putt that's 10 or 12 feet, anybody knock another 50 for all of a sudden you shoot that 32 Or three the last time and you're gonna win the golf tournament. And but if you run out impressing yourself and pressing and pressing, I think that you sometimes play beyond what your real ability is at that time. So about three weeks later, Roy went to Charlotte. And he shot 63, the last round. And, you know, I saw I dropped him a note. And I said, I said, Well, that was a pretty good analysis. I said, I told you to have patience, but that was ridiculous. So So anyway, he did that. And then he came back. And about a year later, I think probably the next year he was leading the masters. And he shot like at the last round. And I saw him a couple of weeks after that. And I went through it. I said, Ray, I said okay, yes, you lost the tournament. Do you know why you lost? Did you learn anything? He says, I think so I think I learned why I lost? Why did I says well put that in your bonnet. And think about it and think how not to put yourself in that position. And so that then two or three weeks that he went to the US Open and won by what, eight or nine shots in Washington. So then I wrote that I dropped them a note right after that. I said, Congratulations. That was pretty good there as a pretty good effort. As you said, you learn something from Augusta, you obviously did. But more importantly, did you learn something from what you what you did a congressional and why you won. So in other words, I think you have to learn why you lose. If learn why you win. You have to learn how to do both. And I think business is exactly the same thing. You know, everybody makes mistakes as they're growing up and trying to learn to grow a business and you and you should learn from those mistakes. But you also when you do them, well, you learn from that too. So Roy learned quite well he's he's obviously a very accomplished and good player. You know, someone

David Novak 19:18 

mentioned he said, you know if you ever get a chance to talk to Jack Nicklaus ask him why when he played he had three pennies in his pocket. What's the what's the thinking? Well,

Jack Nicklaus 19:26 

they kind of funny when I was young. I mean, invariably, I would go to a golf course I go play the good to the first Green says, Oh, hey, I don't have a ball marker, he says can borrow one. So I said if I had three pennies in my pocket, I said give a guy a penny on the first screen. That left me with two and if I happen to lose one, I always had one left to mark my ball. That's how I got three pennies

David Novak 19:47 

of all the recognition you've received. Looking back what would mean the most to you and why?

Jack Nicklaus 19:53 

I'm gonna say as it relates to the game of golf, probably the one that surprised me the most. And one that was real A really nice recognition bank in 2000, they had the athletes of the century for a sports illustrated as banquet. And I received the the male, individual Male Athlete of the 20th century, um, center. I said, I'm there with Muhammad Ali and Wayne Gretzky, and Bill Russell and all these athletes. And I received that syndrome said, Wow, that's pretty good. And, you know, that from that standpoint, and then from from another standpoint, I mean, you receive, receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Bush received the, the Congressional Gold Medal, and then they received the Lincoln award this past year, and to be honored by your country. And that's pretty special it is. And it's very special. And I was I was very honored, but by those awards, you know, here, I'm just, I'm just a kid to play the sport. And I have to make a couple more putts and somebody else, but it was for that. And I was very proud of the fact that that every one of them said, it was a way that I and I really give Barbara much of that credit for the philanthropy part of the care for others, which is really, my wife's my wife's dealing, who really got me into that, which was really, I really enjoyed it.

David Novak 21:24 

Talk about that. Sure. You know, you're known jack, and you just displayed right here for being understated and humble. But you were on the cover of Sports Illustrated 23 times you were just mentioned some awards. You were honored by your country and presidents, you know, how in the world have you managed to stay humble, serious?

Jack Nicklaus 21:44 

Well, you know, my dad grounded me when I was young. I remember the first time I was 11 years old, and I had a shot to the green of the 15th toilet Saturday, Mr. Green, and the eight iron followed the ball moves to the green. And he looked at me and he said, Go pick your club up we're going to the clubhouse is that ever do that again. You're never gonna play again. I said really? Yep. I did the same thing with my son Jackie at 1972 with us opening in replaying the practice route of Spyglass. He was a pain in the rear going down the first hole at Spyglass for quite a fracture, we just walked right back out and go what away, he learned from an I learned from my dad from that. You know, I think that you learn, you learn how to he always told me, you know, you, you may not like getting beat. But always make the guy who beat you feel like you really are happy for him. So you shouldn't go beat your head in the locker later. He said, But put put your hand out, shake his hand and firm look him in the eye and say well done. And, you know, I think my dad gave me good lessons about sportsmanship and, and trying to be humble. But he says he says you're gonna you're gonna win your share. He said, But but this is other people, you know, do things in life. And they're, and you should be happy for them when they do that. And if you've prepared yourself properly, it worked out and they beat you. And they deserve it. Congratulations. So I sort of live that way. And I think Barbara has been just a tremendous partner to have 58 and a half years now. And it's it's pretty special. But it came from my parents. My parents come from the Midwest, very, you know, not different than where you are. You're getting Kentucky. We're just just north of yet. And so it's very grounded. You know, it's very grounded. You know, you were

David Novak 23:38 

in golf. You You were captain of the Ryder Cup team and the Presidents Cup and, you know, what did you What did you learn? What would be your team leadership lessons from taking on those kinds of roles and goal?

Jack Nicklaus 23:48 

Well, I kept to Ryder cups and four presidents cups. And, you know, from playing with other captains, I really felt like the Ryder Cup. The President's cup was a goodwill match. It was not important who won. It was about the game of golf. It was about bringing a nations together and celebrating the game of golf. The winning winning was not important. We sure you want to win. But so I went I took it as I says it's an honor to make your team it's it's a fantastic honor to be there when they raise the flag and play the national anthem. I mean, I I to this day, I don't think I've ever had the national anthem played that I haven't had tears in my eyes. I don't care what event about I've always had it. I got it right now just thinking about you do Yeah, it's so you know, it's that has to be so so I always handled the guys in a way that I felt like you know, you've made the team guys want you to enjoy the week. Tell me who you want to play with. Tell me who you don't want to play with them what I'm bearish on just get out of the way and let the teams You know, have at it and have fun and I'll be my role of sort of organizing and what and what have you. And I think that served me well because all the guys really want to be back to be captain again. Because they said because I handled them like like like men not like kids

David Novak 25:24 

you know, you talked about your father teaching you sportsmanship earlier on, you know, one of the most famous acts of sportsmanship in the history of any sport was when you can see to depart with Tony Jacklin, you know, short, but the basically have the, the oil matches, you know, did your dad I'm curious, did your dad Was he alive in and if he was Did he commend you or complementary or doing that? Or? Oh, yeah, you know, because you were just telling me your dad is such a sportsman. You know, what did he think when you did that?

Jack Nicklaus 25:55 

I did that probably because the way he taught me, because I'd never even thought about it. I just did it. I mean, when Tony, I looked at Tony Jackson, who was a good friend, and we were coming up the 18, Tony, Tony had beat me in the morning and we played again in the afternoon. And, and I had him one down with two holes to play. And that 17 Tola Birkdale is a par five, and I headed about 15 feet from the hole, and he added about 80 feet. And so all I had to do basically was looked like I was going to putt, and I'm going to have him the match to be over. He hold the 80 foot I missed the 15 footer. So now we go to the 18th hole. I had him one down, I take it back. And we go to the 18th hole. I'll leave it and we walked off the tee and Tony and I could Tony says How you doing? He says, Well, he's you want to know the truth. I'm bloody petrified. And I said, Well, I've said it consolation Do you have exactly the same. And we say we were friends, we walked down there. And we both did off the nine shots off the tee, Tony had a little closer the whole Tony did. Tony ran his pad up probably inside two feet somewhere. And I read it about five feet by and I'm sitting there trying to make it to win the matches. So oh my gosh, I had this downhill slider left to right about four and a half feet. And I knocked it in. And I don't know why I did it. But it just to be Tony Jacqueline was a first hero that Britain had had in 40 years. And he was if he would have ever missed that, but they would have roasted him for the rest of his life. And I don't know why I thought about I just said, I'm not gonna give Tony the opportunity to miss that. So I reached out, picked his coat up and handed it to him. And he says, he says you got to give me that last year. I said, I'm not gonna give you the chance to miss it. You're not gonna have that chance. And as soon as I said, because I said I I said I think that's what the batches are all about. You know that not only? I didn't think any big deal about it. Yeah. And I've asked every Ryder Cup Captain since that time, what would you have done? This is exactly what you did, which is I would hope my player would do that. And so, you know, I thought it was a good gesture. But what's happened with it? You know, we have the concession golf club over in Sarasota. We've had concession matches that Tony vibe that turn it up in lifetime friends. He is He has benefited from it all over the world from things we've done. So some good came from it. Absolutely.

David Novak 28:14 

You're obviously extremely competitive, but in a good way. But how did you view your competitors? I mean, you went to you had some great battles with some all time legends and golf, whether it's Arnold Palmer or Gary Player Trevino Watson savvy, how did you look at your competitors?

Jack Nicklaus 28:29 

Well, I never really looked too much at him. I said there's only there's only one competitor that which may was the toughest one to beat and that was yourself. Only person I could control was me. And so all I could do was was do that. It didn't make any difference to me whether it was Paul replayer Watson Trevino, whatever it might be. And I pretty much played my own game and tried to make sure that I did what I was supposed to do. Obviously, if I got down the stretch, and we're playing stretch, it became a little bit more matchplay. So you might be a little bit more strategic and how you played. But still, the only person I hit control was me. And I got beat some times. And I went some some of the time but don't ever beat yourself. And sometimes you get beat, but don't beat yourself.

David Novak 29:14 

You know, Jackie, you've met all kinds of leaders, many different vocations. You know, could you name one that really impressed you the most and why?

Jack Nicklaus 29:23 

Oh, gosh. Are you looking leaders? I'm very fortunate to meet a lot of presidents of the United States. And all of them very special in their in their own way. And you know, I think you got to know Billy Graham a little bit. Billy Graham was an unbelievable man. Got to know Nelson Mandela a little bit. I saw him about a half a dozen occasions and I really, really liked Nelson Mandela. When you

David Novak 29:54 

look at these big leaders like that, what is the one trait you admire most in them that you see

Jack Nicklaus 29:59 

their humbleness? Was there a selflessness? I mean, it was. I go back to Eisenhower when I first met Ike. What a gentleman What a nice man never got to play with he was they were supposed to play. He's played exhibition with Arnold and me. And he got sick. He went, but he went around the cart with us. And, but he couldn't play, but I had lunch with him several times and dinner a couple of times, and it just couldn't have been nicer than it gets Gerald Ford. Gerald Ford was was was the ultimate gentleman if anybody I've ever met pretty good for Michigan man for a guy from Ohio State.

David Novak 30:40 

That I wouldn't expect.

Jack Nicklaus 30:42 

But Gerald Ford, I remember what a great honor he I played with him probably 100 rounds of golf. We played partners at the Crosby tournament. No, at&t now. And we had a great time. And and I remember we when he called me one day says, Jack, this is this is Preston forward. I said yes, Mr. President, this is Jack. He says I'd like to ask you if you would consider being a pallbearer at my funeral. Well, I said, Well, Mr. President, I said what a great honor. I said. I said I hope that's not going to be anytime soon. But you know, the President's plan their own funerals and everything ahead of time, which was really a nice honor. That's amazing. George HW was, there's could never was a nicer man in it than George George George HW. I got to know Clinton and Bill Clinton was a delightful guy and get to know him. George W is what a great guy he is. I mean, I remember when, when he was in the White House when I was Presidents Cup captains and, and he I did a rally for him in Ohio. And he said, he said, This election is over Jack, I'm gonna bring my father down. And Gary was with me, my son. He says they will play golf, he says, and Gary, you get my dad. And so, so the election was over, and I didn't get a call from him. I went to the White House about about two months later, Gary Player and I went in for a president's cup thing. And we watched it. I didn't walk through the door at The Oval house. He says, Jack, I owe you an apology. This is I told you, I would call you after the election was over. And I didn't call you. This is I couldn't play golf. He says I can't I can't play it. Another round of golf while I'm in the White House until I get those boys home from from Iraq and Afghanistan. Wow. I mean, and he didn't he never played one round of golf in four years in the White House. Wow. And I mean, he was he was terrific guy.

David Novak 32:30 

Good. Good. You know, you were known for being maybe this big part of your preparation, you are known for being one of the first to really talk about mental preparation, the fact that you should visualize exactly what you want every shot is important to carry that kind of mindset over into business.

Jack Nicklaus 32:49 

Oh, I think if you don't, I think you have to carry it into business. I think I think to me, if I'm if I'm going to go in for a presentation for somebody or something, I gotta visualize what I want to do and what I want to happen and where I want it to go and what I'm trying to do with it. I think it's no different than playing a golf shot. Yeah, I think it's very important. You know, speaking

David Novak 33:04 

in business. I remember last year when we had dinner together. You were heading up the next day to go to Malaysia to get an update on a course that you were in the process of designing. When did you first get involved in golf course design?

Jack Nicklaus 33:19 

19 about 65 or six? I guess it probably was Pete Dye called me one day Pete and I'd played a lot of amateur golf together. And Peter just started designing golf courses. And he was working on the golf club in Columbus, Ohio. And he said, Jack is I want to come out and see my golf course I'm doing out here for Fred Jones. And I suppose he saw what you see what you think of it. I said, Fred, I said, Pete, I don't know what he think about golf course design. He says, You know more than you think. He says, come on out with me. So we went out there. And first hole was pretty straightforward. I can see that the second hole went over the top of a hill with a bunker that was blind and said, Pete, what is this he's wants to take off from a hole at Prestwick. I said okay, so I don't I don't see it. You know, we got to the third hole. And the third hole was a round green with four round bunkers equally around the green, equally spaced around the green and look like Mickey Mouse in all directions. This What do you think? I says, Well, I think it looks terrible. What would you do? I peed. I don't know what I would do. Yes, you do. What would you do? What would look good. And there was a little stream there. I said, I said, Well, I think I'd come down to the front left to that grade. I put a little bunker in there. And I said I'd get the green to shape a little bit more to that. Maybe keep it what bhaker in the back right in front of me to get around the wall and back left. But anyway, he did it. And he said he said how about consulting with me on some golf courses? He said, Would you do that? At Pete IBNR I'd love to do that. So that was I enjoy I enjoyed this day to day. And so nothing happened for a couple of years. And I got a call from Charles Fraser through Mark McCormack that Charles was interested in doing a golf course in Hilton Head and he wanted to have somebody With a name to be able to do golf, Chris and Mark told him he says, well, the jack, jack is wants to get involved in it. So I met with Charles Fraser and he says, Jack and I came to do this golf course Morbius was Harbor Town. And I said, I said, Charles, I don't have a clue how to do a golf course. But I said, I've been asked to consult with a guy, a young guy named Pete dices never heard of him, because nobody heard of Pete at this time that he was just starting. And so he said, Well, I said, Okay, so we did a deal with with Pete, I think, I think we charged him $40,000 To do the golf course. And by the time we finished, I made 23 visits in there. Pete took the $40,000 fee and put it back in the golf course plus more. And about two thirds of the golf course Charles came to us. He says, You know, I said I just contract with the PGA Tour to do a term called the Heritage Golf Classic. He said, we're gonna have a tournament here in November. This was probably in June. This is what, so we just had this little 6600 yard golf course. Well, anyway, we played around with it and got it there. And it's been a main staple of the tour ever since. And so like real Canadian Golf Association contacted me, they wanted me to do a golf course for for their permanent home in Glen Abbey. And so Glen Abbey was my first golf course that I opened that 1976 We opened up harbor down in 1969. So I had about seven years of apprenticeship and then started doing it myself.

David Novak 36:20 

Well, you got your claim for you've been architected the year by Golf Digest, obviously has done a phenomenal job. What do you think are the big keys to the golf course design? If you can simplify?

Jack Nicklaus 36:32 

Well, there's nothing really new. It's really how do you apply it, you can go back and better golf courses are 200 years old, and you're gonna find something there that you liked, and you might apply it in a way to the land that you're looking at. But I'm gonna go back and sort of say a story a long time ago, I was doing an outing. And I will tell you where it is because I went, I don't want to say anything about the golf course. But it was an outing, and we had about 10 pros were there. And for some reason, I don't know why I didn't play I did a clinic in the morning. And 10 Pros went out and played and they played with 10 foursomes or five swims. Now the golf course was in magnificent condition. The clubhouse was gorgeous, that had combinations in the clubhouse. It said on top of the hill, there's these big beautiful trees, beautiful lakes out there. The golfers came in. And every amateur said that men need the best golf course I've ever played. That was the best day I've ever had on a golf course. It was just fantastic. All 10 Pros walked into that may be the worst golf course I've ever seen. Well, what did that mean to me? Well, it meant to me that the average golfer really is that to concerned about the golf course itself, but they're concerned about their experience or time with their friends, the aesthetics, the enjoyment they have. And that had all of that the pros are interested in the quality of the golf shot, the challenge the fairness and those things. So my philosophy really became after that I want to do a golf course is pretty an aesthetically pleasing as I possibly can and put good golf shots in it.

David Novak 38:05 

You know, I want to thank you for the great job you did, by the way in designing Valhalla in Louisville, which has become a site for major championships and join the Ryder Cup nice golf course and I know you work closely with the late the Dwight game fight game that you know what was your vision for that? That course which is become so celebrate Well,

Jack Nicklaus 38:25 

we were out in the golf course and I was out there with whiteness boys were walking walking the area which became the front nine and right says he said you know Jack, he says I'd like to have a golf course here that could how's the PGA Championship? And I said okay, is that that's what that was your goal. That is absolutely that's what I want. said Okay, that's it. That's all designed for you. So we designed the golf course we had the PGA Championship. And then of course he did he sold the facility to the PGA and then if they've had Ryder cups and PJ's BJ cedars there

David Novak 38:57 

and done a lot for Louisville, it's brought attention to little ones.

Jack Nicklaus 39:00 

It's nice golf course. And Louisville is supported very, very well.

David Novak 39:05 

You've also done I think over 300 courses around the world, you know, what do you think's really driving the popularity of golf?

Jack Nicklaus 39:13 

Well, I think the game of golf is a game that everybody can play. It's a game that women can play with children and they can play with old men and they can play old ladies or or young whatever it might be they can all everybody can play together you

David Novak 39:28 

know, an 80% of what you've developed has been outside of the United States a lot of complain that are well, I think the new

Jack Nicklaus 39:34 

courses when I played golf, I tried to play as much around the world as I could. I mean, not many people know that but I once six Australian opens, so I had to go to Australia quite because Gary Player won seven of them. So we had to be down here for a lot of tournaments. But anyway, the played around the world and so when we started designing, I wanted to be part of what happened Laurel when apartheid got Bala South Africa, I wanted to be part of the new New South Africa. So I probably did six or seven golf courses, or maybe eight I ended up in South Africa, when when the Iron Curtain would now I wanted to be part of what's going on over there. I've done three golf courses in Moscow. So right, when China sort of sort of opened up, when it probably got 20 to 25, golf courses open in China. You know, I wanted to be part of what happened in the world. And everywhere you go in the world, people love, for some reason love to play the game of golf, because it's a game for all ages. And the popularity of it is you play it all your life. And it's something that particularly people outside the United States, because the United States, it's a fairly mature date. I think the Olympics has had a lot to do with it, too. I think Olympics. The Olympics didn't really affect the United States or Great Britain, or maybe Japan, because they're mature Gulf countries. But countries like China, Russia, Brazil, where they had the last Olympics, India faces where there's not that much golf. Those countries all want to be part of Olympia, winning Olympic gold medals. A big fake. Yeah, absolutely. So I think I think a lot of that popularity happens for what's happened with the Olympics,

David Novak 41:14 

you know, your your business, in your marketing deals go way beyond designing the golf courses, at apparel, golf clubs, golf academies, lemonade, and even your own ice cream, as I understand it. Do you have any principles that you've used, Jack that to help you decide what you want to invest your time and money and energy in

Jack Nicklaus 41:34 

credibility? way I look at it, if it's a credible thing, and it can contribute to society. And it's something that I should be involved with that I can that people would enjoy and be part of, then that's what I do. There was I mean, to me to be involved in hairspray doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. But I mean, to me, I love ice cream. So, you know, that to me was that was that was one of my first but again, I gained 15 pounds to learn about our ice cream,

David Novak 42:06 

I follow you on Twitter. And I understand you're the head of r&d,

Jack Nicklaus 42:09 

as head of r&d. And that's absolutely sounds like a love interest and our wine and wine that we've had it through the gelato family out in Napa, I really, I don't drink that much wine, I mean, a couple of glasses of wine a year. But I think there's part of our brand, and something that you know, you're at clubs, and so forth and so on. And people people drink a lot of wine. And I think it's a credible thing to have be part of what we have as part of our brand. So those are things if I felt like it's something that makes good sense for me, and contribute to society that that should be probably involved with it. Great.

David Novak 42:44 

You know, I read where you want said the most you've learned about the business world has come through top experience. Can you share us a story about one of those experiences that you learn from it? Some

Jack Nicklaus 42:56 

of the dumb things I've done through my lifetime, which are and you know, at the time, I felt they were right up early on in my career. Dave Thomas, who started Wendy's in Columbus, Ohio, came to me and wanted me to be part of what he was doing. I said, David, you know, you're a good friend, I love you. But I said, I really don't want to be a hamburger salesman. Well, I just I just lost about $100 million, or 200. Maybe more than that, but anyway, that was what I turned out. And when he's obviously it's turned out to be very, very successful. I went along and then I had a one was net chats. Rich saying truly rich Santoli came to me and he said Jackie says I want you to be part of NetJets and so I was 25% owner of net jets and Rich was in his early years just couldn't make the thing happen it was really losing losing a lot of money and my pit might people in my my office that Jack You don't want to be part of Legion situation. He says let's try to see if we can buy our way out of this thing. Well, rich showed me some money and I just traded money for ritual anyway rich sold, you know to Warren Buffett for about 100 million. Those are some mistakes that I made. Plus I turned down I turned down Wayne Huizenga and I turned down Hugh Culverhouse both for the dolphins and Tampa Bay to be part of their teams and so forth. Those would have been pretty good investments to they all both the both of them came to being really, one time thought I had a group that were buying the dolphins and it fell through and Wayne bought bought it. And then same thing with you called Ross and a group who was trying to do the Tampa new franchise and who got that franchise and they both came to me and offered me a percentage of the team for nothing to present for, you know, for the cost. So I would have gotten a pretty good chunk of each one of those. Now, those are my infinite wisdoms. I don't really have any of the real good stories.

David Novak 44:48 

Almost every leader I talked to has a favorite failure success.

Jack Nicklaus 44:51 

Those are all failures. Yeah. They were all all great all great companies that I and I'm proud of all the guys that how they took it forward. i But I should have been part All in all for those?

David Novak 45:02 

I don't know, if it's possible to have a bigger boat, you know? I don't know. What did you learn about running a business? I mean, if you had to, like, what would be your top three principles for running, run a hell of a business? Well, I

Jack Nicklaus 45:15 

don't really run it myself. And I think that the basic principle that I had, as that when I, when I really had to control my company, it was is to be smart enough to know what you can do and what you can't do. And if you're smart enough to know what you can't do, and find somebody who can do what you can't do. And so I had good people, I've always had good people working for me, I've always had good loyal people, most people work for people for 2530 years or more. They've all grown with it. I always tried to, I've tried to advance them in golf course design, I've got probably 24 or five young guys that have been there members, the American Society of golf course architects, it started with me, a silly little thing is right here in my own yard. I used to don't do it now, because we don't do that much of it. But I used to grow the grasses and all the plants and everything that we would do on a golf course. And I'd test and I started at 14 head golf shoe pretenses started in my yard out of college. And so, you know, I've always, I've always loved mentoring young people to bring them along. And those some someone will make it some more. But, and also, I sold part of my business to immigrant bank, Howard Milstein, about about 12 years ago. And it was at a point in time where I felt like I needed somebody to help me grow the business beyond where I could grow it. And I didn't think I could do that. So I sold 49% of the business, to Howard, and, you know, but it's given me the opportunity to sort of semi retire. And I didn't want to make my kids wealthy. But I also wanted to give him an opportunity to for a start in life wet and really wait until I kick the bucket.

David Novak 47:10 

You know, I know your your sons and sons and wives have been involved in the business to a certain extent, what are some of the joys and challenges of the Commonwealth running somewhat family company? And what advice do you have to offer with people who get their family involved in

Jack Nicklaus 47:25 

business? Well, I think there's nothing better than working with your family. And I mean, to be I didn't really get into into into business to try to maximize what I can make out of business. Sure, I want to be profitable and to make a living and do things everybody wants to do that. They want to be successful. But to have the opportunity to work with my son Jack, who rents the design part of the business. We've worked on probably 5060 golf courses together. What a great thrill. And we still continue to do that. I've seen my son Gary, who is really is who took a little bit what I gave, it become very entrepreneurial, Gary has bought parts through five or six different companies that has been very successful with a year he's very smart and the end to end work with Gary McFarland, and he's included his dad in his businesses, which is kind of neat. And my son, Michael has got a real estate brokerage firm, which he's had. And I'm part of that. So we work to work at all kinds of things, Steve, is, Steve's got a variety of things that he does, and I've been involved in those and one of them. One of them started was tournament management. And Steve syllabub Treme, he runs a memorial to Macy's, his company,

David Novak 48:38 

so this has mainly been a joyful experience for you. Absolutely. And explain because you you read a lot about and learn, you know, a lot of times families have, you know, have you done anything special to bring it together, it just was a closeness of your family. You

Jack Nicklaus 48:52 

know, I think that what is kind of neat about our family is our kids, I got five kids and 22 grandkids, and I think they all like still come home. And you know, a lot of family split up and I think all my all my kids, they, they all like their siblings, the they all get along, they spend time together, they go to, they go to parties together to go to dinner together, they do things together. And I think that's Barbara, and I guess me to a certain degree that they enjoy being with their parents, and still at this age, and they still they're out there now taking care of us, you know, which was sort of helping us to what we do in life. And that's really kind of nice. I think I mean, I am so proud of them. And and the grandkids have come along and none of them are married yet. And we got one was going to be 29 here and next week. And so I gotta if these kids were having great grandchildren. But anyway, it'll happen but you know, it's, I have zero problem with any of the 22 grandkids never had a problem with drugs or anything else. So it's just, we haven't had any of those problems. They've all all been good kids all gone to college, they've all been a lot of have played sports a lot. They all do things and, and they've all been able to make their way in life.

David Novak 50:12 

Jack, you know, we've talked about golf, we've talked about business, you know, the other thing that you have really gotten focused on and you're doing in partnership with Barbara as your philanthropy. And I know you're very passionate about pediatric care. Why is that? Your real focus area and how does this fit into your life? Now? What's it doing for you?

Jack Nicklaus 50:32 

Well, I started back in 1966, man was not quite a year old. And she started choking. And we, and by the time we get to the doctor, she was five, this happened about a half a dozen times. We said yeah, there's some some bothering this child. And this happened over a period of a couple of weeks. And so we finally took her down to Columbus Children's Hospital, which is now Nationwide Children's Hospital. And they found the shadow in her windpipe and turned out to be a blue crayon. And then they they I don't understand why but they didn't have any a pediatric bronchoscopes as if everyone that was an adult bronchoscope and a 10 month old baby. And of course it broke up the credo adopted her lung, she wants to get into pneumonia. And, and she was touching go for about about a week. And she recovered from it. And Barbara and I at that time, we said you know, if there's if we ever have an opportunity to help others, we want to be children. Because at Columbus Children's Hospital, we felt saved our daughter's life. And so, from day one, the memorial tournament has benefited that hospital. And we've been the main beneficiary from the 100 tournament because we do quite a few other events now. And we've been very fortunate we've raised very close to $100 million in the last 14 years. We got ourselves in a position through the game of golf. We finally made a few less putts nobody would have heard of me. So it would never have happened. And I was fortunate to make a few putts. And it put me in a position to be able to help others better. In fact, I'm sure you realize that the PGA Tour every year gives more to charity than all other sports combined. Yeah. And the kids today actually get it. Most of these young guys have been very philanthropic at a very young age. A lot of them have their own foundations. A lot of them have supported our foundation. We've supported some of their foundations. They're great kids.

David Novak 52:28 

I know you have a lot of stars like Justin Thomas and Rickie Fowler, they come over, they get they come to this house, and they get your advice. What do you tell them?

Jack Nicklaus 52:36 

Basically, tell them how I how I saw her golf course. And I basically say to him, I said, Yeah, and one of the big things about Augusta, you never get hurt in the center of the green at Augusta a lot of golf courses, you play the center degree. And you might be putting down a slope off the golf motorway. But I guess you don't have that I wanted a second home, green is sort of divided that you have a bit of a problem. But the rest of greens, you put the ball in the center of the green, you're going to be in pretty good shape. And I said, Yeah, let's put the ball in the center of the green. And try to eliminate the four or five or six tough shots on the golf course, by not putting yourself in in harm's way. And then the rest of golf crashing go, not very hard, just go ahead and put the ball somewhere in there. We can go ahead and make it obviously the greens are difficult to find. But for the middle of the greens are that difficult. Right? And that's, and that's basically what I

David Novak 53:28 

believe they have to love that. You know, Jack, you've been so generous with your time and I could sit here listening. I've got more questions. But I'd like to ask you this last question your you've given us the three bits of advice to aspiring leaders. I mean, if you look back, you know, you've done it, you've done it all, you know, golf, business philanthropy, what would be the three biggest bits of advice you could give to aspiring leaders?

Jack Nicklaus 53:55 

Well, I think, first of all, whatever you do, do it because you want to do it. Don't do it because you were pushed into it by somebody, that'd be something you want to do. And if you want to do it, you know, give me give all you've got to it. Because I think you're not going to be successful. If you don't, you got to enjoy it, and have given all and you gotta be you gotta be prepared. You know, prepare yourself for what you're doing. So, if you're if you're if you're gonna like it, you got to work at it and you gotta be prepared. If you can do that, I think you could probably be pretty successful no matter what you do.

David Novak 54:35 

You know, one last thing I just speaking of success, you're also believe it or not, everybody's listening. He's like a world class angler great fisherman. Do you have one true fishing story you could share with us

Jack Nicklaus 54:49 

was in Australia for the Australian 1978 And I went down and I went to a couple of friends of mine from Ohio with me. We went out on the reef fish fishing for black bar. Oh, and we fished a couple of days and and you know a few fish were caught me these 600 pounds, 800 pounds big fish really released them all and so forth and so on. And on Saturday, which is probably our third or fourth day, I hooked into this fish at quarter of five in the afternoon. And fish started jumping and Jerry pate had had on film. And the fish happened to be they said they call grandeur is what they're talking about 1000 pound fish. And I said he's got a Monster Monster on. And so I'm fighting this fish. And in that 10 jumps in the first hour, which we got on film. And I fought this fish for six hours and 25 minutes. And finally, at least 10 minutes after 11 At night landed the fish. And they and all the radios down the coast on on this on this artists. They said get us some measurements get us some measurements. It's them. So we got the basis. You've definitely got the Australian record, probably the world record. Can you get it Wait, we're 100 miles offshore. middle of night, we got all these reefs across we couldn't get across. So we we kept the fish as wet as we could keep it. But of course, the next morning it came on when we could go over the reefs and Sons baking on this fish. When we finally wait waited the fish was 15 and a half feet long, seven foot girth 29 and a half inches at the base of the tail. That means it carries that weight all the way up through the fish. And he weighed 1358 Okay, now that fish probably weighed over 1500 pounds when he was caught. But we couldn't get him weighed. So I lost the world record. Still today. 41 years later, it's still majors larger than than the world record fish or any other fish back Marlo that's ever been caught. They have a replica that fish Johnny Morstan replica that fish at top of the rock and Missouri. Wow. And he's got it in the bar. There's a replica of my fish.

David Novak 57:06 

Wow, that's amazing. You know, Jack, I say this with all humility. You know, I mean, I'm humbled just to be in this room with you. And you are one great man, and you have a great family and a great story. You're great Americans. So thank you so much for taking the time to share, share your insights, I really appreciate it. I know this went a lot longer than Well,

Jack Nicklaus 57:28 

I don't care about that, David. It's a it's a pleasure to I'm very flattered that you've asked me to do this and be part of it. I'm glad to be part of your podcast. And I hope that hopefully you're successful and continue to to enjoy what you're doing.

David Novak 57:40 

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Well, I have to tell you, that was such an honor just to sit and talk with Jack Nicklaus, and do an in his home and walk around and see all of his memorabilia, I gotta tell you, this guy is a national treasure. And if you play golf, you know, being consistent is really stinking hard. But Jack is the absolute gold standard for excellence, time and time again. And when I asked him why Jack pointed to two things, his preparation and his ability to learn from both his failures and successes. And you know, it's kind of funny. We leaders talk a lot about celebrating our wins and learning from our failures. But sometimes we just plain forget to actually look at the wins and ask why it all worked. So this week as part of your weekly personal development plan, I want you to think about a recent big win you've had in your life as leader. Now I hope you've already taken the time to celebrate it. That's important, but take some time to learn from it to why did it work? What specific actions and people and processes contributed to your success? Just like Jack told Rory, we can learn as much from our victories as we can from our losses. Start applying that principle, and I know that you'll become a better leader. Heck, you'll probably be a better golfer too. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders learn as much from success as they learn from failure. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be