David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple, you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Tim Ryan, US chair and senior partner of PricewaterhouseCoopers, one of the top accounting and consulting firms in the world. And now you don't get elected by your partners to this kind of position if you're not absolutely at the top of your game. And Tim sure is, he is one of the smartest guys I know. But that doesn't mean he has all the answers. In fact, in his words, he drives himself crazy with listening, he's always seeking out more data points and drawing out different perspectives. It's really at the heart of how PwC serves their clients and formulate strategy. And you know, that willingness, and I'd go so far as to say eagerness to listen has also empowered him to make some really bold decisions. Right after he was elected to his role in 2016. There was a tragic, racially charged shooting in Dallas, Tim listened to his employees rousing response. And it motivated him to drastically shift his entire leadership strategy to focus on racial injustice. And that's the big leadership lesson waiting for you today. When you know how to listen to different perspectives, you can make even the toughest decisions from a place that's informed, and empathetic. And that's definitely the mark of a great leader. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Tim Ryan.

Now, as we're learning, every leader has their own unique style, something that sets them apart. And I'd venture to say that Tim has embraced diversity and inclusion as a business driver, and I'm talking about a real business driver, with a courage and passion like no other CEO, Tim, thanks so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Tim Ryan 2:18 

Thank you, David. It's great to be here. I really appreciate your work. And I'm looking forward to the conversation.

David Novak 2:23 

Tim, I have to ask you, as we get started, I want to get your whole story here. But what was that watershed moment that you had that made you decide to put diversity and equality as your real focus of your leadership?

Tim Ryan 2:37 

David, it's interesting, I had the privilege of being elected chairman and senior partner by my partners in the spring of 2016. at PwC, we're a democracy it's one partner, one vote. I tell people, it's similar to the United States, but a lot more civil. And I tried this vote. And when I ran for senior partner I had I had a really good plan it had, we were going to grow, we were going to gain market share, we were going to transform enter new markets. And if you saw it, I hope you would agree it was a really good plan. One week into my first week as chairman and senior partner that Friday was when we had shootings in Dallas. I woke up that Friday morning, that my leadership team together and it was clear something had happened in our country in the summer of 2016. And I reached out to our people, like many CEOs did at the time. And it was a fairly unremarkable email that I sent it simply said, I know we're hurting. I know there's things on your mind. But what happened afterwards was was very remarkable. We heard from hundreds and hundreds of our people. And one person summed it up best. They said, when I came to work Friday morning, the silence was deafening. And for me, it really hit me here are charging privilege with leading 55,000 people. And yet they were coming within the four walls of PVC and couldn't talk about it. And it was that day that I threw that really good plan out the window. What I realized on that day is if I can inspire and help our people, remarkable things will happen. Like the goals I had my plan were outcomes. What I was really missing was the fact that you gotta motivate, inspire, protect people, and great things happen. And so it was my first week as chairman, senior partner, that we really did a major pivot.

David Novak 4:19 

Wow, that's amazing. And I understand shortly thereafter, you had a firm wide conversation on on on race. Now, what compelled you to do that?

Tim Ryan 4:29 

Well, it became clear as PwC like many large organizations, we were 1015 years into a diversity, strategy and programs. We had all the training all the programs, measurement, different groups for for 10 years. What became clear in that early part of July 2016, is that we were uncomfortable talking about race in the point where literally people weren't sure whether us were black or African American or black and brown, and it became clear we had missed the foundation, the foundation of true understanding what it's like to be in somebody's shoes, what it's like to be black in the workplace, what it's like to be black in our communities and come to work and, and go back to your communities. So we made the decision, or I made the decision ultimately to tuck the firm down on July 21 2016. To have a day long discussion on race. You can imagine as a young new CEO, there were many who felt that was a good idea, and many who felt it was too risky one, when fortune 50 CEO said Tim, it's going to blow up in your Blink blankety blank face. If you do this, we ultimately decided to do it, David, because we needed to understand each other, we needed to get raw, we needed to really understand what it was like. And then as in by in doing so that would then set the foundation for for moving forward. I won't go into details in the day right now. But one person said at best we said in that day, we shed more tears on that day than we did in our 160 year history. And I had the ability to participate in Atlanta and New York that day. And it was remarkable. What did you learn Tim, I learned that we had people who were coming to work with with things in their minds that I could have never understood. So again, as a young CEO, my my mindset was, we're going to every day you come to work, you take the hill, you serve our clients while you transform the firm, you're 100%. All in, what I learned is we had people coming to work and we had black professionals, who were felt like they're being watched in our hallways, they felt unsafe. And so there I am naively thinking, we're all marching to the same mission, we have a great strategy agree where to go. And people have more basic things in their minds, I learned that some of our black professionals carry their driver's license in their PwC business card. So if they get pulled over, they can show that they could afford the car, I learned that some of our black professionals, when they're going out to play a softball game in Central Park, and they take their work shirt off and they put their T shirt on, they feel like they're being watched because they their people who view them as unsafe in the office, I learned that some of our black professionals teach their children sons how to get pulled over by the police things I could have never understood that I now had a beginning to understand more and more what was on our people's minds. And I knew we needed to address it.

David Novak 7:22 

Now you had one CEO tell you this thing was gonna just blow up in your face. And I'm sure you know, I've been in a lot of meetings internally where you know, you want to make an effort like this. And people say, Hey, come on, Tim, you know, we got a business to run, you know, how do you muster up the courage to do that? Because it looks easy now, but out back then you're new? You know, you want to get the results. How do you muster up that courage? Hi,

Tim Ryan 7:46 

David, I had one of my closest friends in the firm. And even to this day, he's still my closest friends. He called me up and he said, Tim, he said, Be careful, this isn't what we elected you for. And, and again, one of my closest friends. And I asked him to simply participate and learn. I think courage is interesting word we often associate courage with, like taking a hill and loud voices. The courage sometimes is a willingness to listen. And I really tried to listen to all the different perspectives. And what I tried to do in that case is, is get this personal column Fred, that's not his name. I asked him just to participate, learn with an open mind. And what happened is he he met me halfway, he realized it. So the courage was willing to listen to him and not not getting angry, not get mad, not not get upset, he couldn't see what I was beginning to understand. And part of it was really trying to be that bridge builder to get him to understand. And I think that's really like, ultimately, you need to make decisions, no doubt about it. And that is a sign of there's a really important sign of a leader. But decisions after getting a lot of input in appreciating different perspectives.

David Novak 8:55 

So it sounds like when you get challenged, your first instinct is the lesson.

Tim Ryan 8:59 

Yeah, so I drive myself crazy with listening, I am a constant listener. I'm a big believer in understanding the different perspectives of how you come at a problem, ultimately, very willing to make a decision. But it's rare that I would make a hasty decision. I'm a big believer that leaders collect data points. And your job is to accumulate multiple data points, and then assemble the data points I share with people often. I'm without a doubt not one of the smartest people in the world. But I'm a really good listener. And I'm smart enough to know if there's enough people pointing to something over here a good thing or a bad thing and opportunity or problem, then that's where I need to go. And I find it's a little bit humbling because definitely not the most intelligent person but a really good listener and then you know where to go.

David Novak 9:44 

Well, you've learned one plus one equals three, it increases your IQ points, which is great. Now, you also you didn't just focus internally, you started a CEOs Taking Action Group. Tell us about it.

Tim Ryan 9:56 

Yeah, so David asked, literally that day Hey, we ended on July 21, I was walking out of the office, and one of our black managers, which is roughly 68 years of experience. He said to me something to the effect of Tim, thank you for today. It was great. Thank you for leadership. I really appreciate it. We need it. He said, But can I ask you a question? He said with a brand at PWC. Watch your role outside of PVC. And, and I will admit, David, I thought to myself, gosh, can I just say breathe, I can I we just pull this really risky day off, it didn't blow up or getting news from all over the country that are gone well, but the more I thought about it that night again, listening, the more I thought about it, he was right. I sit in incredibly privileged seat at serving, ultimately at the confidence of my partners, but but I have a major responsibility to the communities and our clients. And the more I thought about it, I'm like, God, He is right. He is right. And so I began talking to people I began trying to listen to what is the role of the business community again, it's the summer of 2016. It's we've come a long way in four years around purpose and ESG, and role of a corporation but summer 2016, it was way less clear. And so what I did as I began to talk to people that I respected, so I spent a lot of time with David Taylor, the Chairman and CEO of Procter and Gamble, I spent a lot of time with a man by the name of Ron Parker, who is the Chairman and CEO of the Executive Leadership Council. And we began talking about what is the role of business. And what we realize is there was a void, there was a void of how do we help all of us become way better at something we were very uncomfortable on, which is the topic of inclusion and diversity. And so that was the ultimate formation. So I listened to our black professional, I got other inputs. Clearly, we did play a role. And then I got the help of other CEOs.

David Novak 11:49 

What's really incredible about all this is this happened well before the the George Floyd, tragic incident that happened and the other things that have just kind of, I mean, amazed, everybody, just how can it possibly happen in our country? And now you've made a new commitment to fight racial injustice, what are you doing now?

Tim Ryan 12:13 

The thing when I maybe first when I look at George Floyd, is that murder and that that killing is is incredibly tragic, well will be even more tragic is if we if we don't use it as a springboard opportunity to improve. What would inspire me from George Floyd's killing is now all across our country. And in many cases all across the world, we're now the majority were beginning to understand it's really where we were in 2016. Understanding the burden that our black fellow Black Americans and black citizens across the world are carrying. And that that inspires me and gets me excited that because I truly believe the more we understand, then we can care more. I believe in many cases, I'll put myself in this bucket. Prior to 2016. I was unintentionally ignorant. And what's happening now is we're really understanding a lot more. And so many millions of people are saying I had no idea. And now that I understand I'm called to do something. And what I'm inspired now is we have the opportunity to do something. So what are we doing? at PwC, we've made a number of commitments inside PWC. And on top of everything else we're doing the two that I'm most proud about to talk about, because there's six I won't spend all the time going through sixth. One is we're giving every one of our people 40 hours a year, pay time, additional on top of everything else we do, to go spend in the community anyway, they want nonprofit NGO local policymakers to really drive their passion to make a difference, that's going to be 2.2 million hours into our society to go make a difference in my hope is they'll spend a lot more. The second thing is we've been working very hard over the last several years around driving improvement around recruitment, retention and advancement, pay equity. And I've shared with my people, I'm going to make that data available to them. In many cases a lot. I'm proud of no surprises stolen from important areas. But I want to share that with our people. We've been working really hard. And I'm hoping by highlighting where we have room for improvement will rally around that and work even more better together to go after that. The thing I'm equally excited about David is where we're creating 1000 person startup. And so what we're doing is we're asking every member of CEO action that CEO action.com That's the entity that we started three years ago, we're asking every member to contribute one or more people for a two year fellowship with that those 1000 people work together to work on PolicyMaking at the city, state and federal level, and work collaboratively with our policymakers to really drive racial equality and ultimately eliminate racism in the United States. And we will have scale like nobody else has ever had it before. I've contributed one of my potential successes as the CEO of that group. And in addition to that, we have 20 CEOs who have agreed to serve as the governing body of that group, which were already lined up ready to go. And we also at PwC, will contribute 30 people to that group to start it off right away.

David Novak 15:23 

As sad as this may sound, I can imagine a lot of people listening to this podcast and their their eyes are rolling, you know, back, you know, it's like, and because they look at this as diversity inclusion, sort of some sort of project you do off at the off to the side, how have you integrated everything you're doing with diversity and justice and inclusion? How have you integrated that into in your business and actually driving results.

Tim Ryan 15:54 

So it's an I appreciate the skepticism, I, they to your point, I can understand a lot of people saying, we've heard this all before some companies treat it as a side project at for us, it's integrated in everything that we do. Just to give you a sense, David, I spent 10 to 15% of my time on diversity inclusion inside the firm. So it is where I spend a significant amount of my time, it's at the heart of everything we do. So when we sit down every year, and we're going through our recruitment plans, we bring on roughly eight to 9000 people a year, both from campuses and experience, hires, we're talking about representation, we're talking about how are we getting the right talent in. So it's part of that it's not off to the side every year when we go through our people plans. It's part of what we're doing every year, when we go through our talent succession process. It's part of what we do, when we look at how we serve our clients representation is critical at the team level. When we go through how we deal with our governing matters. It's part of that. So everything we do, as part of that I share with people I share internally and externally, it is critically important to understand that diversity inclusion is not only from my perspective, the right thing to do, I think as leaders, we have a responsibility to make sure everybody can succeed. It's what's great about this country, and we have opportunity to create a level playing field for everybody to succeed, it's the right thing to do. If that doesn't get you the business case is overwhelming. The reality is the demographics are changing in our country and our world dramatically. And customers will vote with their feet if they don't have diverse perspectives. And there's a burning need to make sure in our case, we have diverse teams to serve the very best clients, we have the privilege of serving some of the best brands in the world. And if those brands don't see us as represent their their customer base, they're going to question whether they're getting the right diverse views. And lastly, our government is changing that they're going to add a necessity get dragged into this. So it's better to own the issue, as opposed to not own the issue. So everything we do, it's embedded in how we run our firm.

David Novak 17:56 

You know, just to be clear up, you know, I take my hat off to what you're doing. I'm not one of those skeptics, I think what you're doing is you're leading the way and making it happen here. Now, the other thing is, Tim, you've got PwC has 1000s of clients in in over 150 countries are a great global organization. What advice are you giving your clients on how to handle COVID-19?

Tim Ryan 18:20 

Yeah, thank you, David. So what COVID-19 Unquestionably has accelerated strategies that were already in existence. So what we're seeing is many, many companies are realizing the transformation, they're underway, the digital transformation that they were under way, has just been accelerated. So assuming for a second, you're not one of these massively hard hit industries like entertainment, travel airlines, which my heart goes out to them, because beyond anything they can control their businesses have been upended. I'll put those into one group. When I look at other companies in other industries, finance, insurance, banking, asset management, manufacturing, health care, entertainment, what we're seeing is their strategies have been accelerated it COVID is in a change, it's an acceleration. What we are advising our clients is to move deliberately, and move quickly arrived accelerating their strategy, because what's amazing is we've all had this shared experience, having gone through this as a world, take advantage of that shared experience. We're also advising that executives need to be in the details, it is very hard to change an organization is 100,000 people, 50,000 people, 20,000 people, and the change matters at the human level. And we're advising our clients at the senior management level. Be in the trenches with your people, explain to them the changes explain why you're doing this gets the hearts and minds. The reality is many, many of our millions of workers around the country in the world. They're worried about their own technology relevance, they're worried about their job security, what it means to them. We're encouraging the drive transformation at the human level, explain what you can be transparent about what you don't know. And we think that sets a platform to really get the transformation faster than people looking for this, you

David Novak 20:12 

all make so much sense. But we just talked about two subjects. We talked about the racial injustice COVID-19 ID, with all this negativity going on, Tim, you know, how do you keep yourself up?

Tim Ryan 20:25 

Yeah. So thanks, David, I'll share with you something that I did, believe it or not, about four weekends ago, I wrote a letter to my partners, to be opened in 2014. And the reason I did that is because one of the things that I've come to understand through watching other leaders learning from our leaders is things will pass. Like in the moment, things always seem massively, massively challenging. And what I did in this letter that I'm going to have my board approve and have it opened in 2040, is lay out what our mindset is right now. And let's be candid, it's a scary world right now. Many companies don't know what their revenue demand is going to be. Hundreds of 1000s of business will go under or be impaired. It's a challenging time right now. And what I'm trying to do in this letter is I laid out, here's why we made it, and we thrived. And we focused on the things that we can control. And we focus on things that are guided by our purpose, whether how we treat our people, we treat our clients where we invest, even though it's harder to invest today. So for me, when it gets challenging, I try to take my head up above the cause because I am in the details. I believe great leaders need to be the details. And I try to look back at other crises and other challenging times. And we always make it and we make it because we have the fortitude to look ahead and understand that it will be okay. And I'm a big believer in your focus on weed control. I advise hundreds of companies and at a personal level dozens of CEOs, there's a lot of scary stuff, geopolitics, the pandemic that we can't control. What we can control is how quickly and how confidently we react to change. And I tried to do that. You know, Tim, I

David Novak 22:08 

hope I'm around in 2040 when that that letter is published to the Wall Street Journal so you know you've been at PwC for over 30 years and but I understand you actually want to your your first big job was in a working in the supermarket. What did you learn about customers and and having a growth mindset in that job?

Tim Ryan 22:29 

Yes, Sir David, with all due respect, where I went to college at Babson College, I learned more at the supermarket than I ever did anywhere else. The supermarket is still in existence today. My my brother and my brother in law, my sister in law, they all work there still. What I learned there, first of all, is the customer's always right, and I'm learning humility to know the customer's always right. And while I'm the now when a client service business, it's the same thing like our, our customers are the people you have to listen to. And I believe any business that loses sight of the fact that customers are the ones who pay the bills. More importantly, they're the ones that guide you where to take your business. I learned that at the supermarket. And it's grown to take on bigger things over the last 30 years. But fundamentally, the customer's always right. Around growth mindset, I'll just share with you a quick story that I've shared from time to time. When I was at the supermarket my sophomore year in college, it was only eight stores is this family owned chain. And at the time, they were expanding nine to nine but to 10 they were jumping from a opening two stores at the same time. And I'll never forget when I was working the floor one day the the owner Pat Roche, him and his brother are independent by Roche. Pat used to come in all the time he knew us we knew him. And he came up to me asked me how I was doing. And I said to Pat, I said I'm doing okay, I said but I got something on my mind. A lot of us are concerned you're growing too fast. And we're worried about eroding the brand and worried that maybe we're we're gonna lose the edge we have of serving the customer better than anybody else. And of course, David, I was a sophomore in college, I had every answer in the book. At that point, I had taken an accounting class and economics class. And Pat said to me, he said, Tim, he pointed to the sign. Outside, he goes, that's mine and buds name and the sign. He goes, I'm worried about the risk of growing too fast. I want you to know that. Like I don't take that for granted. And then what he did is he goes he pointed over to my brother Pat, who at the time had made his career choice, he was going to work there full time and he's still there today for power roads pointed to my brother Pat and he said what I also know is that if I don't create opportunities for people like your brother Pat to stay in grow, I'm going to lose them. And David, that's when I learned why growth is so important that growth isn't a number on a page growth isn't something you can boast about and talk about. Look what I did. If you're not constantly growing your best talents gonna walk out the door. You're in, it's to be in the end. And I learned that from Pat Roche. And to this day, I'm very focused on growing our firm. Not so I can have written about, look how great Tim or PBC did, because that talent that I'm interested in growing them and helping them achieve great career opportunities. If I'm not going to firm I'm gonna have that great talent walk out the door. Pat Roach taught me that Superman.

David Novak 25:22 

Wow, that's great. Then you go from the supermarket to PVC, and that's a long time ago. Do you remember your first day on the job?

Tim Ryan 25:30 

Oh, god. Yeah, June 13 1988 was my anything that first day I did. My. So he came from a very working class family. My mother worked at a supermarket. I remember her telling me every day I called her aunts were in the winter, how hard it was to work there. My dad worked three jobs. And I was the first one to graduate college at the time. My mother helped me buy my clothes. My first day, we went to Sears and Roebuck at the denim law. And we bought my clothes and a couple of nice suits, couple really nice polyester ties. And that first day, I was really nervous, needless to say, and we were sitting in the training room and it was again, June it was hot as heck. And as the day wore on, it got very, very, very hot. And everybody was taking their jackets off. And as I noticed everybody taking their jackets off, they all had white, long sleeve cotton shirts on. I knew underneath my jacket, I had a short sleeve polyester shirt on. I was embarrassed, David, I was embarrassed. And I ultimately took it off, because I was the only one in the room with the suit coat on. And after I took it off, I felt everybody was looking at me. And I felt like I didn't belong. I felt like this is the wrong place for me. I don't fit in. I'm not like the others. At lunchtime, one of the instructors took me down to Filene's Basement, which is a department store. And he bought me two white cotton shirts, and he showed me the right ones to wear. That person is now one of my partners today. And that's why I'm here 30 years later, because it's about people. It's about helping people understand the right things, understand how to fit in keeping your own individual identity at the same time, the most important it was about compassion.

David Novak 27:19 

I love that story. In here you are now you've climbed the ladder, you're at the top of the organization, what was the biggest obstacle you had to overcome to get to where you're at?

Tim Ryan 27:31 

I would say, without a doubt, it was the transition of realizing that in your first several years, you can do a lot yourself. For me, it was the realization that if you want to keep progressing, you got to come to the realization you can't do it all yourself. And for me, that road was bumpy, quite frankly, there were times where I would I would work. And again, you need to work hard to be a leader. But there were times where I was working around the clock because I felt this insecure need to do everything myself and to get it done right, which you can do that at one level. But by the time you get to certain levels and the responsibility comes so big. If you don't learn to trust others and give them guidance, and let them show what they have, you ultimately will have a ceiling and frankly, in my career, I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people hit a ceiling, because they can't get over that comfort level. For me it was growing to understand that and I would say my last 10 years, that has been an incredible journey, it's really been rewarding to see so many other people grow, which not only contributes to their growth, it contributes to the firm's growth as well. But letting go David was really hard.

David Novak 28:46 

You're obviously a purpose driven leader. I mean, how would you define your company's Northstar?

Tim Ryan 28:54 

Yeah, for our purposes, building trust in society, and solving important problems. In every decision we make goes through that lens, every decision, just give you a recent example, which frankly is still playing out before our eyes. I don't know how this will end. But in mid March, when we saw the pandemic hit, we knew that the biggest thing on our people's minds was their health of them, their families and their loved ones. As a professional service firm. There wasn't much I could do for our people there except say don't travel work from home. And we're here if you need us. But the second biggest thing that was in our people's minds was their job security. We have 55,000 people who are caring for a couple of million family members, friends and communities. And we knew economic uncertainty was the second biggest thing on their mind. I got my team on the phone and webcast in the span of a two week period. I talked to my board and I said we need to help our people. We need to let them know they don't need to worry about their jobs. And we came out at the end of March and we said we will do layoffs as a last resort. And we can My David, in March and even sitting here today, we don't know what revenues are going to be like the economy is so uncertain. But we made that through the prism of our purpose, which is if we're serious about solving important problems, if we're serious about making sure we're building trust, we owe it to our people to say we're going to do it as an absolute last resort. And as I sit here now, five months into this journey, yeah, the business is suffering in certain areas, no doubt about it. But our people see that we're leading with our purpose. And we're carrying them and Frank, I hope that pays dividends on the outside. But I can tell you this, they trust us, because we're leading from the front. And so for me, that purpose statement drives every lens that we go through.

David Novak 30:41 

Strategy is so important, and you're in a business that is constantly changing has to change with your, with your clients. How do you stay on top of trends? And how do you lead the strategic process as a CEO?

Tim Ryan 30:56 

Yeah, so we're constantly not only talking with each other, but we're constantly listening to our clients, I joke with people, we don't have to be the smartest people in the world, we have to listen to our smartest clients, because we have the privilege of reaching 1000 companies within the fortune 1000. Because we're constantly dealing with hundreds of startups, we're listening again, go back to collating data points. So for me, it's not only this into my team, and my people at every level in the organization, it's been on the road constantly up until this world now it's virtual, it's listening, it's looking and seeing what's working. And so what we realize is that if we listen to our clients, and the people that make up the business community, and are the stakeholders, we know what to do. And what's driven our strategy very clearly, is we believe the marketplace is telling us three fundamental things. And this has been this way for four years. So this is not a reaction to COVID. The Marketplace desperately wants things to be more digital. And they've told us that if we listen, that's what they're telling us. They're also telling us they want more value, whatever they get from us, they want more value. And they're also telling us that cost matters like in a labor constrained world, again, pre COVID, you can't keep passing on Hey, Kong cost, those three things cost value digital, that is formed our strategy, and we had been resolute in driving that strategy. So the planning process is listening to what the world is telling us and not just our clients, but the communities, our people, and then executing that strategy is constant, constant communication. And in laser focus on what matters. One of the hardest parts of my job. Honestly, David, is respectfully telling people good idea, but it doesn't fit with where we're going. And we have to be laser focused on what matters. And for us, that's cost value in digital. Tim, you

David Novak 32:46 

deal with all clients, you said in the supermarket business you learned the customer's always right. Well, that's not always true. Okay. You know, I mean, sometimes you got a real tough client. And that isn't right. You know, what can you tell us about your worst client experience and how you handled it?

Tim Ryan 33:05 

Yeah. So what I would tell you is anything in our business, our clients pay us and they want our best advice. That doesn't mean we always agree upfront, like our best partners are the ones who can present somebody to a client a point of view. And then and then work with them either to we we evolve our point of view, or they evolve ours. You mean, the middle depends on the facts. I had the privilege of, of being a partner in the financial crisis. And I would not call it My worst experience, I would actually call it My best experience. But it was the hardest one, it was the hardest one. When I was working with this client, I had a great team. So I frankly made the pivot of not doing everything myself. And this is important, because if I had tried to do everything myself, we would have surely gotten the wrong answer. So a grown enough, as a leader to know, you've got to trust your team. And we saw some challenges, like we saw some challenges in there at the company, and we worked with the management team at the time we worked with the board and, and ultimately over a long period of time, we just couldn't get there it despite trying to get there, trying to help them to see what we saw. And ultimately, I had to make a decision. And then they notwithstanding all the listening and all the consulting, and I didn't go in alone. I ultimately had to make a decision, which at the time was the hardest decision I've ever made in my career, which was simply to tell him I we and I can't get there. We can't get over their point of view. And I'll never forget David walking back in midtown Manhattan in early February 2008. And I had given the client my final answer after months and months and months of deliberation, intense deliberation, and trying to help get them over to where we were. And I'll never forget feeling like my career was over. Like who would want somebody who's that tough and that hard. And I'll never forget going into our office around nine o'clock at night at 300 Madison in New York. And I went up to the 30 First floor, which is where my bags were, and my desk was. And when I got there, there were 40 people waiting for me. And what I realized is, even though I felt alone, I wasn't alone. And surely it was a very challenging client experience. But I realized that evening, a couple of things. Number one, I wasn't alone, even though I had to make the decision. I had the full firm backing me, including the senior partner at the time was there, the role I have now, it helps me to understand now with 55,000 people, I don't need to make every decision. But I need to back my teams, when they do make a decision, and have to follow all of our process. If they haven't gone it alone. My job is pretty simple. I made sure they followed our process, and I support them. And by the way, I'm happy to tell you that that client today is thriving, and it's one of my best relationships.

David Novak 35:53 

You talk about citizen led innovation. What the heck is that?

Tim Ryan 35:58 

Yeah, so citizen like it, it flips problem solving. on its head, I believe the way we need to do in the 21st century, the way that many of the clients that I serve in in even even I grew up is your your calling data points and you make decisions to the top. The reality is many businesses are so far flung and so complicated, that we despite best efforts sitting in the center, you can't solve everything. But we all have really smart people. What we've tried to do is we empower our people to make decisions on the ground, I passionately believe that there's very few decisions somebody can make on the ground, they're going to put us out of business. But if you build a culture of not making decisions at the point of the customer, then you ultimately that culture will pull you out of business. So what we've done over the last four years invested in citizen led development, citizen led execution. By the way, David, on my first day of senior partner 2016, I made the decision to go to jeans again, seems pretty obvious today. But with a New York being about 25% of our firm that didn't go over too big in New York, like, you know why we shouldn't be wearing jeans, but they're gonna you know, people don't want to see people in jeans wear the wrong type of jeans, but I did it because I want to help people, I trust you. I trust you to make the right decisions. Fast forward, what we've done the last three years is we have massively empowered our people with technology. We've invested in our people like technology for us in constant digital upskilling is like an employee benefit, like 401k, and healthcare. By us teaching our people those skills, and empowering them to fix things. Their productivity we've seen over the last few years has been staggering, because we're empowering our people with skills and then decision rights to identify micro ways of driving things we've never seen before. I passionately if you teach people to fish, they'll do things the right way, and much better than I could ever do sitting in New York.

David Novak 38:01 

That's great. Now, I have to ask you, when you went to the jean dress code did, did you accelerate the the sale of short sleeve shirts? So it was amazing. Everybody's wearing short sleeve shirts, though. You know, I understand you had the honor of speaking at the commencement at Duke in 2019. What was the most important thing you told the students?

Tim Ryan 38:28 

Yeah, so. So thank you for that it was it was quite an honor. And what I what I told them was, at the end of the day, you need to know what your moral compasses. And the thing you can never get back is your integrity. And I asked him to think about some of the big challenges in the world. And I talked about where we are in race in the United States. And I talked about some of the some of the leaders that we should look look up and admire at. And I challenged him to think about what their legacy was going to be, and have the courage to make the really hard decisions, I assure them that growth will happen. I assure that ensure that innovation will happen. But will we need now more than ever as courageous leaders and again, as you point out, that was in the spring of 2019. And I asked them to really think about what their legacy is going to be in 30 years, because I truly believe this will be the generation this will be the generation of people that really lead us to more equality in our society. And I think we look at talented people like at Duke and all across our country, in our colleges and our high schools. They'll figure it out if they have the courage to make those decisions. By the way, David as an aside, we're shooting this on on July 20. This Saturday, I'm giving the commencement speech and socially distance to my high school where I went, were by the way I was in the bottom 25% of the class academically and I'm gonna give them the same advice.

David Novak 39:55 

That's good. Well, we share a great academic background together. You But yeah, tell us a story about how you go about and inspiring people.

Tim Ryan 40:05 

Yeah, it's, it's listening. First, it's listening. It is leading from the front. So I am extremely hands on. So if we have a tough client situation, I'm right out there. leading from the front, I'm talking with the client team, I'm talking with the client. And I'm making sure part of inspiring is showing that I'm in it with you. I'm not directing from the top of the hill. So for me, that's hugely important. But the other one is, David, there's always problems like there's, there's always problems out there. Part of me from an inspiration standpoint is, yes, that's a problem. How do we figure it out together? So I, I believe in empowerment, you've got to go fix the challenges. You've got to fix problems. Sometimes it's showing people we can fix them together. Like let's work on it. Just as inside like, this morning, I spent an hour on the phone with one of our blog partners, who has experienced some challenges. We're inspired to fix them together. Now. We'll fix them together. So it was taking something very challenging, and then saying, okay, break it down to its micro sites. When you do that, and you show together we can get through things that inspires people.

David Novak 41:12 

As a firm, you have the great privilege of of tabulated results for the Oscars. So I have to ask you this, you know, what was it like when you learned that lala land was incorrectly named? The movie of the year instead of moonlight? Yeah. Were you in the audience then or Yes. latching on, watch it on TV. Tell us that story. Yep.

Tim Ryan 41:35 

So. So I had the privilege of attending that Oscars, that was my first year as senior partner there, obviously an incredibly important client, they trusted us with some amazing responsibilities. I thought that was a night off. And my wife and I were sitting in the audience. You know, my first year was very intense, a lot of stuff going on. And it planned on that being a nice, relaxing evening, watching the great artists get their awards. Once our people came on stage, I knew we had made a mistake, because that we don't we don't belong on stage where the with the back of the show the people who shouldn't be seen, we have a very important responsibility. And we should stay focused on that.

David Novak 42:14 

You know, you're in trouble when you see the account. You got it. Yeah, not

Tim Ryan 42:17 

so not a group of people you want on stage. But David, for me, it was right. When he came on, I knew there's a problem. And it again, through through years or years of development, my mother taught me something, which is we make a mistake on up to it. And and we clearly had made a mistake. And this is again, an important leadership lesson, because within minutes, I was on the side of the stage with our teams, we're getting all kinds of advice didn't have all the facts at this point. But frankly, I knew enough to know we made a mistake. And I'm very proud of the fact that within a matter of minutes, we're out with a statement that said, we own it, we made a mistake, we're gonna get to the bottom of it. And we did. And I think one of the biggest things leaders need to do is simply own up when you make a mistake. And in this case, the academy was our client. And we clearly made a mistake. And we sat with him publicly and on the issue. And we've significantly improved our processes going forward. So for me, again, an important leadership lesson, which is when you make a mistake just on it, don't don't worry about your brand. Don't worry about vehicle don't worry about risk. If you make a mistake on it, I live by the same bad news only gets worse. And if you've made a mistake, own up to it, and I felt horrible for the artist would work so hard to get that.

David Novak 43:33 

Tim it's it's this whole conversation has been so much fun for me. But I like want to have a little bit more fun with you. And ask you a lightning round of q&a. Sure. You're. So what would be the three words that best describe you?

Tim Ryan 43:47 

Humble, hardworking, and honest?

David Novak 43:50 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Tim Ryan 43:53 

So my biggest pet peeve is when people say we need to be thoughtful when we're debating a problem. Because the implication is that we're not going to be thoughtful.

David Novak 44:03 

Who would you want to be for a day and why?

Tim Ryan 44:05 

Oh, wow. I would love to be present United States for a day. And why? Because I think we're the best country in the world. And I'd love to tell people that and I'd like to see us come together even more to harness the power of this country.

David Novak 44:23 

What's a random fact about you that few people would know?

Tim Ryan 44:27 

My favorite meal that I indulge once a week is a cheeseburger and fries and one Bud Light?

David Novak 44:35 

Do you have a hidden talent?

Tim Ryan 44:38 

I'm not sure I would say I have a hidden talent except I am a really? I'm a really, really good listener.

David Novak 44:44 

You know, I understand. You're a marathoner. What was your best time?

Tim Ryan 44:48 

Oh, my desk time was 358 31 in the Chicago Marathon

David Novak 44:52 

up by 15 minutes. I was in the New York Marathon. So what's something about Ireland, you'd only know if you had parents who grew up there.

Tim Ryan 45:04 

One of the biggest things you would know is that their culture is incredibly hardworking. And there's no sympathy and just quick story, I broke my collarbone. When I was in high school playing hockey Canada, I spent eight hours in the hospital getting a set. My dad, we came home that Sunday night, and my mother took my arm and moved it up and down and said, it's not that bad. We don't get a lot of sympathy being from Ireland.

David Novak 45:29 

Now, you mentioned your mother taught you that when you make a mistake, you know, own up to okay, what's the single most important thing your father taught you?

Tim Ryan 45:37 

My My father taught me is not, don't go looking for praise, like you have a job to do. Go do it. And I get it. This isn't about getting praise no matter what you're doing. My father once said to me when I came in from cutting the grass, and I was looking for praise, and he goes, he goes, thanks for doing your job. And so it's no sounds

David Novak 45:54 

like a really good tough Irish family. Yes, great. I love that. You know, what would be three bits of advice, Tim you would give to aspiring leaders,

Tim Ryan 46:04 

I would first ask everybody to recognize your integrity is most important and largest small, we're all going to get our integrity tested, it could be watching your coworker be treated fairly, it could be a tough customer situation, and somebody might ask you to do something. Respect the fact that your integrity is yours, and do everything you can to protect it and grow it and it'd be my first one. The second one, do you work hard, they achieving great things. And being a leader, there's certain amount of time you have to put in, don't be afraid to work hard. And the last one is be optimistic. Nobody wants to follow pessimists. There are dozens and dozens, dozens of problems in our world today. Leaders are not the ones looking down the ground and kicking the dirt and saying This stinks. Leaders are the ones who say yes, that's a problem. Let's fix it and make it better be optimistic, and people will follow you.

David Novak 46:57 

Balances is so important in business. I mean, you this was one of the things that you do you know, you help your clients, you know, balance their books, make sure everything's right, you know, how do you make it happen in your personal life?

Tim Ryan 47:10 

Yeah. So you have to work at it I I've shared with many people, balances, I'm pushing a rock up the hill, like if someone can make it sound easy, but I almost wonder whether they're being intellectually honest. You have to work at it every day. And if you're pushing a rock up the hill, the second you stop, it'll run right over. And you need to appreciate the fact that it's just like saying shaped or marathon, you've got to constantly stay in shape to do it. So you've got to work at it. And I work at it every day. And I have I have six children their ages 12 to 20. And if I'm not constantly working at that, it'll overtake me. So it's constant work, have grown. And I wish I was more confident when I was younger. And early in my career. I've grown to be more disciplined with my calendar. So I don't have this utopia where I make everything. But the things that are important to me are in my calendar, and my calendar is set a year in advance. And the schools that my kids go to, they must think I'm insane. Because we're calling in August to find out what's going to happen in April to massively discipline with the calendar. And I've come to come to appreciate I've got to invest in myself. And that means finding time to make sure I shut down so I'm way more disciplined on my vacation my weekends. And I used to be in a combination OC things constant working very deliberate planning. And having the confidence to shut down throughout different times during the year is really important. I take a week's vacation every quarter, I would have never done that 10 years ago, I would encourage people to do that.

David Novak 48:34 

Who was the last person you recognized and why

Tim Ryan 48:39 

I would say this partner I spoke to this morning, and he had gone through a very difficult time. And at the end of it, I thanked him for what he's doing. I thanked him for persevering. I thank him for sticking through. I think you've got to constantly recognize people who are going through who accomplished things, or have gone through challenging times. For me. When people achieve a successful outcome, you know, applying a new piece of technology when a new client making a hard decision around quality. I want to recognize those, but it's even people who just make survived through a tough day. And you've got to recognize them. I've learned over time, a pat in the back or recognition goes way longer than anything else. And I recognized this partner I spoke to this morning for an hour.

David Novak 49:21 

Well, Tim, I think you know, thank you. I don't know if it's one word or two words. I think that's the most powerful thing you can say to anybody when you see them really doing a good job. It's just a powerful, powerful phrase that needs to be said more often. And I want to thank you for just being so open and honest and giving us your leadership insights today. Appreciate it very much.

Tim Ryan 49:41 

Thank you David for having me. Thank you for your work take care yourself.

David Novak 49:53 

Well, I have to tell you, I really appreciate the people at PwC spoke up and sparked that conversation and teeth out Since 16, and I appreciate that Tim was willing to listen to his team, and then pivot his whole company to focus on diversity and inclusion, listening takes courage and time, and empathy, and true humility to see the wisdom of someone else's perspective. And now, it's time for me to give you a little coaching. This week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I've got a fun challenge for you. And this one might even test you look at your calendar and pick one meeting where you know, there's going to be a discussion about an important decision. Then during that meeting, don't offer your opinion. Just listen. Ask questions. Draw out the wisdom and perspective of your team. I think you're going to be amazed at how much you learn and how much better prepared you're going to be. When it comes time to make the decision. Give it a try. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders listen to different perspectives. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be

David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple, you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Tim Ryan, US chair and senior partner of PricewaterhouseCoopers, one of the top accounting and consulting firms in the world. And now you don't get elected by your partners to this kind of position if you're not absolutely at the top of your game. And Tim sure is, he is one of the smartest guys I know. But that doesn't mean he has all the answers. In fact, in his words, he drives himself crazy with listening, he's always seeking out more data points and drawing out different perspectives. It's really at the heart of how PwC serves their clients and formulate strategy. And you know, that willingness, and I'd go so far as to say eagerness to listen has also empowered him to make some really bold decisions. Right after he was elected to his role in 2016. There was a tragic, racially charged shooting in Dallas, Tim listened to his employees rousing response. And it motivated him to drastically shift his entire leadership strategy to focus on racial injustice. And that's the big leadership lesson waiting for you today. When you know how to listen to different perspectives, you can make even the toughest decisions from a place that's informed, and empathetic. And that's definitely the mark of a great leader. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Tim Ryan.

Now, as we're learning, every leader has their own unique style, something that sets them apart. And I'd venture to say that Tim has embraced diversity and inclusion as a business driver, and I'm talking about a real business driver, with a courage and passion like no other CEO, Tim, thanks so much for taking the time to have this conversation.

Tim Ryan 2:18 

Thank you, David. It's great to be here. I really appreciate your work. And I'm looking forward to the conversation.

David Novak 2:23 

Tim, I have to ask you, as we get started, I want to get your whole story here. But what was that watershed moment that you had that made you decide to put diversity and equality as your real focus of your leadership?

Tim Ryan 2:37 

David, it's interesting, I had the privilege of being elected chairman and senior partner by my partners in the spring of 2016. at PwC, we're a democracy it's one partner, one vote. I tell people, it's similar to the United States, but a lot more civil. And I tried this vote. And when I ran for senior partner I had I had a really good plan it had, we were going to grow, we were going to gain market share, we were going to transform enter new markets. And if you saw it, I hope you would agree it was a really good plan. One week into my first week as chairman and senior partner that Friday was when we had shootings in Dallas. I woke up that Friday morning, that my leadership team together and it was clear something had happened in our country in the summer of 2016. And I reached out to our people, like many CEOs did at the time. And it was a fairly unremarkable email that I sent it simply said, I know we're hurting. I know there's things on your mind. But what happened afterwards was was very remarkable. We heard from hundreds and hundreds of our people. And one person summed it up best. They said, when I came to work Friday morning, the silence was deafening. And for me, it really hit me here are charging privilege with leading 55,000 people. And yet they were coming within the four walls of PVC and couldn't talk about it. And it was that day that I threw that really good plan out the window. What I realized on that day is if I can inspire and help our people, remarkable things will happen. Like the goals I had my plan were outcomes. What I was really missing was the fact that you gotta motivate, inspire, protect people, and great things happen. And so it was my first week as chairman, senior partner, that we really did a major pivot.

David Novak 4:19 

Wow, that's amazing. And I understand shortly thereafter, you had a firm wide conversation on on on race. Now, what compelled you to do that?

Tim Ryan 4:29 

Well, it became clear as PwC like many large organizations, we were 1015 years into a diversity, strategy and programs. We had all the training all the programs, measurement, different groups for for 10 years. What became clear in that early part of July 2016, is that we were uncomfortable talking about race in the point where literally people weren't sure whether us were black or African American or black and brown, and it became clear we had missed the foundation, the foundation of true understanding what it's like to be in somebody's shoes, what it's like to be black in the workplace, what it's like to be black in our communities and come to work and, and go back to your communities. So we made the decision, or I made the decision ultimately to tuck the firm down on July 21 2016. To have a day long discussion on race. You can imagine as a young new CEO, there were many who felt that was a good idea, and many who felt it was too risky one, when fortune 50 CEO said Tim, it's going to blow up in your Blink blankety blank face. If you do this, we ultimately decided to do it, David, because we needed to understand each other, we needed to get raw, we needed to really understand what it was like. And then as in by in doing so that would then set the foundation for for moving forward. I won't go into details in the day right now. But one person said at best we said in that day, we shed more tears on that day than we did in our 160 year history. And I had the ability to participate in Atlanta and New York that day. And it was remarkable. What did you learn Tim, I learned that we had people who were coming to work with with things in their minds that I could have never understood. So again, as a young CEO, my my mindset was, we're going to every day you come to work, you take the hill, you serve our clients while you transform the firm, you're 100%. All in, what I learned is we had people coming to work and we had black professionals, who were felt like they're being watched in our hallways, they felt unsafe. And so there I am naively thinking, we're all marching to the same mission, we have a great strategy agree where to go. And people have more basic things in their minds, I learned that some of our black professionals carry their driver's license in their PwC business card. So if they get pulled over, they can show that they could afford the car, I learned that some of our black professionals, when they're going out to play a softball game in Central Park, and they take their work shirt off and they put their T shirt on, they feel like they're being watched because they their people who view them as unsafe in the office, I learned that some of our black professionals teach their children sons how to get pulled over by the police things I could have never understood that I now had a beginning to understand more and more what was on our people's minds. And I knew we needed to address it.

David Novak 7:22 

Now you had one CEO tell you this thing was gonna just blow up in your face. And I'm sure you know, I've been in a lot of meetings internally where you know, you want to make an effort like this. And people say, Hey, come on, Tim, you know, we got a business to run, you know, how do you muster up the courage to do that? Because it looks easy now, but out back then you're new? You know, you want to get the results. How do you muster up that courage? Hi,

Tim Ryan 7:46 

David, I had one of my closest friends in the firm. And even to this day, he's still my closest friends. He called me up and he said, Tim, he said, Be careful, this isn't what we elected you for. And, and again, one of my closest friends. And I asked him to simply participate and learn. I think courage is interesting word we often associate courage with, like taking a hill and loud voices. The courage sometimes is a willingness to listen. And I really tried to listen to all the different perspectives. And what I tried to do in that case is, is get this personal column Fred, that's not his name. I asked him just to participate, learn with an open mind. And what happened is he he met me halfway, he realized it. So the courage was willing to listen to him and not not getting angry, not get mad, not not get upset, he couldn't see what I was beginning to understand. And part of it was really trying to be that bridge builder to get him to understand. And I think that's really like, ultimately, you need to make decisions, no doubt about it. And that is a sign of there's a really important sign of a leader. But decisions after getting a lot of input in appreciating different perspectives.

David Novak 8:55 

So it sounds like when you get challenged, your first instinct is the lesson.

Tim Ryan 8:59 

Yeah, so I drive myself crazy with listening, I am a constant listener. I'm a big believer in understanding the different perspectives of how you come at a problem, ultimately, very willing to make a decision. But it's rare that I would make a hasty decision. I'm a big believer that leaders collect data points. And your job is to accumulate multiple data points, and then assemble the data points I share with people often. I'm without a doubt not one of the smartest people in the world. But I'm a really good listener. And I'm smart enough to know if there's enough people pointing to something over here a good thing or a bad thing and opportunity or problem, then that's where I need to go. And I find it's a little bit humbling because definitely not the most intelligent person but a really good listener and then you know where to go.

David Novak 9:44 

Well, you've learned one plus one equals three, it increases your IQ points, which is great. Now, you also you didn't just focus internally, you started a CEOs Taking Action Group. Tell us about it.

Tim Ryan 9:56 

Yeah, so David asked, literally that day Hey, we ended on July 21, I was walking out of the office, and one of our black managers, which is roughly 68 years of experience. He said to me something to the effect of Tim, thank you for today. It was great. Thank you for leadership. I really appreciate it. We need it. He said, But can I ask you a question? He said with a brand at PWC. Watch your role outside of PVC. And, and I will admit, David, I thought to myself, gosh, can I just say breathe, I can I we just pull this really risky day off, it didn't blow up or getting news from all over the country that are gone well, but the more I thought about it that night again, listening, the more I thought about it, he was right. I sit in incredibly privileged seat at serving, ultimately at the confidence of my partners, but but I have a major responsibility to the communities and our clients. And the more I thought about it, I'm like, God, He is right. He is right. And so I began talking to people I began trying to listen to what is the role of the business community again, it's the summer of 2016. It's we've come a long way in four years around purpose and ESG, and role of a corporation but summer 2016, it was way less clear. And so what I did as I began to talk to people that I respected, so I spent a lot of time with David Taylor, the Chairman and CEO of Procter and Gamble, I spent a lot of time with a man by the name of Ron Parker, who is the Chairman and CEO of the Executive Leadership Council. And we began talking about what is the role of business. And what we realize is there was a void, there was a void of how do we help all of us become way better at something we were very uncomfortable on, which is the topic of inclusion and diversity. And so that was the ultimate formation. So I listened to our black professional, I got other inputs. Clearly, we did play a role. And then I got the help of other CEOs.

David Novak 11:49 

What's really incredible about all this is this happened well before the the George Floyd, tragic incident that happened and the other things that have just kind of, I mean, amazed, everybody, just how can it possibly happen in our country? And now you've made a new commitment to fight racial injustice, what are you doing now?

Tim Ryan 12:13 

The thing when I maybe first when I look at George Floyd, is that murder and that that killing is is incredibly tragic, well will be even more tragic is if we if we don't use it as a springboard opportunity to improve. What would inspire me from George Floyd's killing is now all across our country. And in many cases all across the world, we're now the majority were beginning to understand it's really where we were in 2016. Understanding the burden that our black fellow Black Americans and black citizens across the world are carrying. And that that inspires me and gets me excited that because I truly believe the more we understand, then we can care more. I believe in many cases, I'll put myself in this bucket. Prior to 2016. I was unintentionally ignorant. And what's happening now is we're really understanding a lot more. And so many millions of people are saying I had no idea. And now that I understand I'm called to do something. And what I'm inspired now is we have the opportunity to do something. So what are we doing? at PwC, we've made a number of commitments inside PWC. And on top of everything else we're doing the two that I'm most proud about to talk about, because there's six I won't spend all the time going through sixth. One is we're giving every one of our people 40 hours a year, pay time, additional on top of everything else we do, to go spend in the community anyway, they want nonprofit NGO local policymakers to really drive their passion to make a difference, that's going to be 2.2 million hours into our society to go make a difference in my hope is they'll spend a lot more. The second thing is we've been working very hard over the last several years around driving improvement around recruitment, retention and advancement, pay equity. And I've shared with my people, I'm going to make that data available to them. In many cases a lot. I'm proud of no surprises stolen from important areas. But I want to share that with our people. We've been working really hard. And I'm hoping by highlighting where we have room for improvement will rally around that and work even more better together to go after that. The thing I'm equally excited about David is where we're creating 1000 person startup. And so what we're doing is we're asking every member of CEO action that CEO action.com That's the entity that we started three years ago, we're asking every member to contribute one or more people for a two year fellowship with that those 1000 people work together to work on PolicyMaking at the city, state and federal level, and work collaboratively with our policymakers to really drive racial equality and ultimately eliminate racism in the United States. And we will have scale like nobody else has ever had it before. I've contributed one of my potential successes as the CEO of that group. And in addition to that, we have 20 CEOs who have agreed to serve as the governing body of that group, which were already lined up ready to go. And we also at PwC, will contribute 30 people to that group to start it off right away.

David Novak 15:23 

As sad as this may sound, I can imagine a lot of people listening to this podcast and their their eyes are rolling, you know, back, you know, it's like, and because they look at this as diversity inclusion, sort of some sort of project you do off at the off to the side, how have you integrated everything you're doing with diversity and justice and inclusion? How have you integrated that into in your business and actually driving results.

Tim Ryan 15:54 

So it's an I appreciate the skepticism, I, they to your point, I can understand a lot of people saying, we've heard this all before some companies treat it as a side project at for us, it's integrated in everything that we do. Just to give you a sense, David, I spent 10 to 15% of my time on diversity inclusion inside the firm. So it is where I spend a significant amount of my time, it's at the heart of everything we do. So when we sit down every year, and we're going through our recruitment plans, we bring on roughly eight to 9000 people a year, both from campuses and experience, hires, we're talking about representation, we're talking about how are we getting the right talent in. So it's part of that it's not off to the side every year when we go through our people plans. It's part of what we're doing every year, when we go through our talent succession process. It's part of what we do, when we look at how we serve our clients representation is critical at the team level. When we go through how we deal with our governing matters. It's part of that. So everything we do, as part of that I share with people I share internally and externally, it is critically important to understand that diversity inclusion is not only from my perspective, the right thing to do, I think as leaders, we have a responsibility to make sure everybody can succeed. It's what's great about this country, and we have opportunity to create a level playing field for everybody to succeed, it's the right thing to do. If that doesn't get you the business case is overwhelming. The reality is the demographics are changing in our country and our world dramatically. And customers will vote with their feet if they don't have diverse perspectives. And there's a burning need to make sure in our case, we have diverse teams to serve the very best clients, we have the privilege of serving some of the best brands in the world. And if those brands don't see us as represent their their customer base, they're going to question whether they're getting the right diverse views. And lastly, our government is changing that they're going to add a necessity get dragged into this. So it's better to own the issue, as opposed to not own the issue. So everything we do, it's embedded in how we run our firm.

David Novak 17:56 

You know, just to be clear up, you know, I take my hat off to what you're doing. I'm not one of those skeptics, I think what you're doing is you're leading the way and making it happen here. Now, the other thing is, Tim, you've got PwC has 1000s of clients in in over 150 countries are a great global organization. What advice are you giving your clients on how to handle COVID-19?

Tim Ryan 18:20 

Yeah, thank you, David. So what COVID-19 Unquestionably has accelerated strategies that were already in existence. So what we're seeing is many, many companies are realizing the transformation, they're underway, the digital transformation that they were under way, has just been accelerated. So assuming for a second, you're not one of these massively hard hit industries like entertainment, travel airlines, which my heart goes out to them, because beyond anything they can control their businesses have been upended. I'll put those into one group. When I look at other companies in other industries, finance, insurance, banking, asset management, manufacturing, health care, entertainment, what we're seeing is their strategies have been accelerated it COVID is in a change, it's an acceleration. What we are advising our clients is to move deliberately, and move quickly arrived accelerating their strategy, because what's amazing is we've all had this shared experience, having gone through this as a world, take advantage of that shared experience. We're also advising that executives need to be in the details, it is very hard to change an organization is 100,000 people, 50,000 people, 20,000 people, and the change matters at the human level. And we're advising our clients at the senior management level. Be in the trenches with your people, explain to them the changes explain why you're doing this gets the hearts and minds. The reality is many, many of our millions of workers around the country in the world. They're worried about their own technology relevance, they're worried about their job security, what it means to them. We're encouraging the drive transformation at the human level, explain what you can be transparent about what you don't know. And we think that sets a platform to really get the transformation faster than people looking for this, you

David Novak 20:12 

all make so much sense. But we just talked about two subjects. We talked about the racial injustice COVID-19 ID, with all this negativity going on, Tim, you know, how do you keep yourself up?

Tim Ryan 20:25 

Yeah. So thanks, David, I'll share with you something that I did, believe it or not, about four weekends ago, I wrote a letter to my partners, to be opened in 2014. And the reason I did that is because one of the things that I've come to understand through watching other leaders learning from our leaders is things will pass. Like in the moment, things always seem massively, massively challenging. And what I did in this letter that I'm going to have my board approve and have it opened in 2040, is lay out what our mindset is right now. And let's be candid, it's a scary world right now. Many companies don't know what their revenue demand is going to be. Hundreds of 1000s of business will go under or be impaired. It's a challenging time right now. And what I'm trying to do in this letter is I laid out, here's why we made it, and we thrived. And we focused on the things that we can control. And we focus on things that are guided by our purpose, whether how we treat our people, we treat our clients where we invest, even though it's harder to invest today. So for me, when it gets challenging, I try to take my head up above the cause because I am in the details. I believe great leaders need to be the details. And I try to look back at other crises and other challenging times. And we always make it and we make it because we have the fortitude to look ahead and understand that it will be okay. And I'm a big believer in your focus on weed control. I advise hundreds of companies and at a personal level dozens of CEOs, there's a lot of scary stuff, geopolitics, the pandemic that we can't control. What we can control is how quickly and how confidently we react to change. And I tried to do that. You know, Tim, I

David Novak 22:08 

hope I'm around in 2040 when that that letter is published to the Wall Street Journal so you know you've been at PwC for over 30 years and but I understand you actually want to your your first big job was in a working in the supermarket. What did you learn about customers and and having a growth mindset in that job?

Tim Ryan 22:29 

Yes, Sir David, with all due respect, where I went to college at Babson College, I learned more at the supermarket than I ever did anywhere else. The supermarket is still in existence today. My my brother and my brother in law, my sister in law, they all work there still. What I learned there, first of all, is the customer's always right, and I'm learning humility to know the customer's always right. And while I'm the now when a client service business, it's the same thing like our, our customers are the people you have to listen to. And I believe any business that loses sight of the fact that customers are the ones who pay the bills. More importantly, they're the ones that guide you where to take your business. I learned that at the supermarket. And it's grown to take on bigger things over the last 30 years. But fundamentally, the customer's always right. Around growth mindset, I'll just share with you a quick story that I've shared from time to time. When I was at the supermarket my sophomore year in college, it was only eight stores is this family owned chain. And at the time, they were expanding nine to nine but to 10 they were jumping from a opening two stores at the same time. And I'll never forget when I was working the floor one day the the owner Pat Roche, him and his brother are independent by Roche. Pat used to come in all the time he knew us we knew him. And he came up to me asked me how I was doing. And I said to Pat, I said I'm doing okay, I said but I got something on my mind. A lot of us are concerned you're growing too fast. And we're worried about eroding the brand and worried that maybe we're we're gonna lose the edge we have of serving the customer better than anybody else. And of course, David, I was a sophomore in college, I had every answer in the book. At that point, I had taken an accounting class and economics class. And Pat said to me, he said, Tim, he pointed to the sign. Outside, he goes, that's mine and buds name and the sign. He goes, I'm worried about the risk of growing too fast. I want you to know that. Like I don't take that for granted. And then what he did is he goes he pointed over to my brother Pat, who at the time had made his career choice, he was going to work there full time and he's still there today for power roads pointed to my brother Pat and he said what I also know is that if I don't create opportunities for people like your brother Pat to stay in grow, I'm going to lose them. And David, that's when I learned why growth is so important that growth isn't a number on a page growth isn't something you can boast about and talk about. Look what I did. If you're not constantly growing your best talents gonna walk out the door. You're in, it's to be in the end. And I learned that from Pat Roche. And to this day, I'm very focused on growing our firm. Not so I can have written about, look how great Tim or PBC did, because that talent that I'm interested in growing them and helping them achieve great career opportunities. If I'm not going to firm I'm gonna have that great talent walk out the door. Pat Roach taught me that Superman.

David Novak 25:22 

Wow, that's great. Then you go from the supermarket to PVC, and that's a long time ago. Do you remember your first day on the job?

Tim Ryan 25:30 

Oh, god. Yeah, June 13 1988 was my anything that first day I did. My. So he came from a very working class family. My mother worked at a supermarket. I remember her telling me every day I called her aunts were in the winter, how hard it was to work there. My dad worked three jobs. And I was the first one to graduate college at the time. My mother helped me buy my clothes. My first day, we went to Sears and Roebuck at the denim law. And we bought my clothes and a couple of nice suits, couple really nice polyester ties. And that first day, I was really nervous, needless to say, and we were sitting in the training room and it was again, June it was hot as heck. And as the day wore on, it got very, very, very hot. And everybody was taking their jackets off. And as I noticed everybody taking their jackets off, they all had white, long sleeve cotton shirts on. I knew underneath my jacket, I had a short sleeve polyester shirt on. I was embarrassed, David, I was embarrassed. And I ultimately took it off, because I was the only one in the room with the suit coat on. And after I took it off, I felt everybody was looking at me. And I felt like I didn't belong. I felt like this is the wrong place for me. I don't fit in. I'm not like the others. At lunchtime, one of the instructors took me down to Filene's Basement, which is a department store. And he bought me two white cotton shirts, and he showed me the right ones to wear. That person is now one of my partners today. And that's why I'm here 30 years later, because it's about people. It's about helping people understand the right things, understand how to fit in keeping your own individual identity at the same time, the most important it was about compassion.

David Novak 27:19 

I love that story. In here you are now you've climbed the ladder, you're at the top of the organization, what was the biggest obstacle you had to overcome to get to where you're at?

Tim Ryan 27:31 

I would say, without a doubt, it was the transition of realizing that in your first several years, you can do a lot yourself. For me, it was the realization that if you want to keep progressing, you got to come to the realization you can't do it all yourself. And for me, that road was bumpy, quite frankly, there were times where I would I would work. And again, you need to work hard to be a leader. But there were times where I was working around the clock because I felt this insecure need to do everything myself and to get it done right, which you can do that at one level. But by the time you get to certain levels and the responsibility comes so big. If you don't learn to trust others and give them guidance, and let them show what they have, you ultimately will have a ceiling and frankly, in my career, I've seen hundreds and hundreds of people hit a ceiling, because they can't get over that comfort level. For me it was growing to understand that and I would say my last 10 years, that has been an incredible journey, it's really been rewarding to see so many other people grow, which not only contributes to their growth, it contributes to the firm's growth as well. But letting go David was really hard.

David Novak 28:46 

You're obviously a purpose driven leader. I mean, how would you define your company's Northstar?

Tim Ryan 28:54 

Yeah, for our purposes, building trust in society, and solving important problems. In every decision we make goes through that lens, every decision, just give you a recent example, which frankly is still playing out before our eyes. I don't know how this will end. But in mid March, when we saw the pandemic hit, we knew that the biggest thing on our people's minds was their health of them, their families and their loved ones. As a professional service firm. There wasn't much I could do for our people there except say don't travel work from home. And we're here if you need us. But the second biggest thing that was in our people's minds was their job security. We have 55,000 people who are caring for a couple of million family members, friends and communities. And we knew economic uncertainty was the second biggest thing on their mind. I got my team on the phone and webcast in the span of a two week period. I talked to my board and I said we need to help our people. We need to let them know they don't need to worry about their jobs. And we came out at the end of March and we said we will do layoffs as a last resort. And we can My David, in March and even sitting here today, we don't know what revenues are going to be like the economy is so uncertain. But we made that through the prism of our purpose, which is if we're serious about solving important problems, if we're serious about making sure we're building trust, we owe it to our people to say we're going to do it as an absolute last resort. And as I sit here now, five months into this journey, yeah, the business is suffering in certain areas, no doubt about it. But our people see that we're leading with our purpose. And we're carrying them and Frank, I hope that pays dividends on the outside. But I can tell you this, they trust us, because we're leading from the front. And so for me, that purpose statement drives every lens that we go through.

David Novak 30:41 

Strategy is so important, and you're in a business that is constantly changing has to change with your, with your clients. How do you stay on top of trends? And how do you lead the strategic process as a CEO?

Tim Ryan 30:56 

Yeah, so we're constantly not only talking with each other, but we're constantly listening to our clients, I joke with people, we don't have to be the smartest people in the world, we have to listen to our smartest clients, because we have the privilege of reaching 1000 companies within the fortune 1000. Because we're constantly dealing with hundreds of startups, we're listening again, go back to collating data points. So for me, it's not only this into my team, and my people at every level in the organization, it's been on the road constantly up until this world now it's virtual, it's listening, it's looking and seeing what's working. And so what we realize is that if we listen to our clients, and the people that make up the business community, and are the stakeholders, we know what to do. And what's driven our strategy very clearly, is we believe the marketplace is telling us three fundamental things. And this has been this way for four years. So this is not a reaction to COVID. The Marketplace desperately wants things to be more digital. And they've told us that if we listen, that's what they're telling us. They're also telling us they want more value, whatever they get from us, they want more value. And they're also telling us that cost matters like in a labor constrained world, again, pre COVID, you can't keep passing on Hey, Kong cost, those three things cost value digital, that is formed our strategy, and we had been resolute in driving that strategy. So the planning process is listening to what the world is telling us and not just our clients, but the communities, our people, and then executing that strategy is constant, constant communication. And in laser focus on what matters. One of the hardest parts of my job. Honestly, David, is respectfully telling people good idea, but it doesn't fit with where we're going. And we have to be laser focused on what matters. And for us, that's cost value in digital. Tim, you

David Novak 32:46 

deal with all clients, you said in the supermarket business you learned the customer's always right. Well, that's not always true. Okay. You know, I mean, sometimes you got a real tough client. And that isn't right. You know, what can you tell us about your worst client experience and how you handled it?

Tim Ryan 33:05 

Yeah. So what I would tell you is anything in our business, our clients pay us and they want our best advice. That doesn't mean we always agree upfront, like our best partners are the ones who can present somebody to a client a point of view. And then and then work with them either to we we evolve our point of view, or they evolve ours. You mean, the middle depends on the facts. I had the privilege of, of being a partner in the financial crisis. And I would not call it My worst experience, I would actually call it My best experience. But it was the hardest one, it was the hardest one. When I was working with this client, I had a great team. So I frankly made the pivot of not doing everything myself. And this is important, because if I had tried to do everything myself, we would have surely gotten the wrong answer. So a grown enough, as a leader to know, you've got to trust your team. And we saw some challenges, like we saw some challenges in there at the company, and we worked with the management team at the time we worked with the board and, and ultimately over a long period of time, we just couldn't get there it despite trying to get there, trying to help them to see what we saw. And ultimately, I had to make a decision. And then they notwithstanding all the listening and all the consulting, and I didn't go in alone. I ultimately had to make a decision, which at the time was the hardest decision I've ever made in my career, which was simply to tell him I we and I can't get there. We can't get over their point of view. And I'll never forget David walking back in midtown Manhattan in early February 2008. And I had given the client my final answer after months and months and months of deliberation, intense deliberation, and trying to help get them over to where we were. And I'll never forget feeling like my career was over. Like who would want somebody who's that tough and that hard. And I'll never forget going into our office around nine o'clock at night at 300 Madison in New York. And I went up to the 30 First floor, which is where my bags were, and my desk was. And when I got there, there were 40 people waiting for me. And what I realized is, even though I felt alone, I wasn't alone. And surely it was a very challenging client experience. But I realized that evening, a couple of things. Number one, I wasn't alone, even though I had to make the decision. I had the full firm backing me, including the senior partner at the time was there, the role I have now, it helps me to understand now with 55,000 people, I don't need to make every decision. But I need to back my teams, when they do make a decision, and have to follow all of our process. If they haven't gone it alone. My job is pretty simple. I made sure they followed our process, and I support them. And by the way, I'm happy to tell you that that client today is thriving, and it's one of my best relationships.

David Novak 35:53 

You talk about citizen led innovation. What the heck is that?

Tim Ryan 35:58 

Yeah, so citizen like it, it flips problem solving. on its head, I believe the way we need to do in the 21st century, the way that many of the clients that I serve in in even even I grew up is your your calling data points and you make decisions to the top. The reality is many businesses are so far flung and so complicated, that we despite best efforts sitting in the center, you can't solve everything. But we all have really smart people. What we've tried to do is we empower our people to make decisions on the ground, I passionately believe that there's very few decisions somebody can make on the ground, they're going to put us out of business. But if you build a culture of not making decisions at the point of the customer, then you ultimately that culture will pull you out of business. So what we've done over the last four years invested in citizen led development, citizen led execution. By the way, David, on my first day of senior partner 2016, I made the decision to go to jeans again, seems pretty obvious today. But with a New York being about 25% of our firm that didn't go over too big in New York, like, you know why we shouldn't be wearing jeans, but they're gonna you know, people don't want to see people in jeans wear the wrong type of jeans, but I did it because I want to help people, I trust you. I trust you to make the right decisions. Fast forward, what we've done the last three years is we have massively empowered our people with technology. We've invested in our people like technology for us in constant digital upskilling is like an employee benefit, like 401k, and healthcare. By us teaching our people those skills, and empowering them to fix things. Their productivity we've seen over the last few years has been staggering, because we're empowering our people with skills and then decision rights to identify micro ways of driving things we've never seen before. I passionately if you teach people to fish, they'll do things the right way, and much better than I could ever do sitting in New York.

David Novak 38:01 

That's great. Now, I have to ask you, when you went to the jean dress code did, did you accelerate the the sale of short sleeve shirts? So it was amazing. Everybody's wearing short sleeve shirts, though. You know, I understand you had the honor of speaking at the commencement at Duke in 2019. What was the most important thing you told the students?

Tim Ryan 38:28 

Yeah, so. So thank you for that it was it was quite an honor. And what I what I told them was, at the end of the day, you need to know what your moral compasses. And the thing you can never get back is your integrity. And I asked him to think about some of the big challenges in the world. And I talked about where we are in race in the United States. And I talked about some of the some of the leaders that we should look look up and admire at. And I challenged him to think about what their legacy was going to be, and have the courage to make the really hard decisions, I assure them that growth will happen. I assure that ensure that innovation will happen. But will we need now more than ever as courageous leaders and again, as you point out, that was in the spring of 2019. And I asked them to really think about what their legacy is going to be in 30 years, because I truly believe this will be the generation this will be the generation of people that really lead us to more equality in our society. And I think we look at talented people like at Duke and all across our country, in our colleges and our high schools. They'll figure it out if they have the courage to make those decisions. By the way, David as an aside, we're shooting this on on July 20. This Saturday, I'm giving the commencement speech and socially distance to my high school where I went, were by the way I was in the bottom 25% of the class academically and I'm gonna give them the same advice.

David Novak 39:55 

That's good. Well, we share a great academic background together. You But yeah, tell us a story about how you go about and inspiring people.

Tim Ryan 40:05 

Yeah, it's, it's listening. First, it's listening. It is leading from the front. So I am extremely hands on. So if we have a tough client situation, I'm right out there. leading from the front, I'm talking with the client team, I'm talking with the client. And I'm making sure part of inspiring is showing that I'm in it with you. I'm not directing from the top of the hill. So for me, that's hugely important. But the other one is, David, there's always problems like there's, there's always problems out there. Part of me from an inspiration standpoint is, yes, that's a problem. How do we figure it out together? So I, I believe in empowerment, you've got to go fix the challenges. You've got to fix problems. Sometimes it's showing people we can fix them together. Like let's work on it. Just as inside like, this morning, I spent an hour on the phone with one of our blog partners, who has experienced some challenges. We're inspired to fix them together. Now. We'll fix them together. So it was taking something very challenging, and then saying, okay, break it down to its micro sites. When you do that, and you show together we can get through things that inspires people.

David Novak 41:12 

As a firm, you have the great privilege of of tabulated results for the Oscars. So I have to ask you this, you know, what was it like when you learned that lala land was incorrectly named? The movie of the year instead of moonlight? Yeah. Were you in the audience then or Yes. latching on, watch it on TV. Tell us that story. Yep.

Tim Ryan 41:35 

So. So I had the privilege of attending that Oscars, that was my first year as senior partner there, obviously an incredibly important client, they trusted us with some amazing responsibilities. I thought that was a night off. And my wife and I were sitting in the audience. You know, my first year was very intense, a lot of stuff going on. And it planned on that being a nice, relaxing evening, watching the great artists get their awards. Once our people came on stage, I knew we had made a mistake, because that we don't we don't belong on stage where the with the back of the show the people who shouldn't be seen, we have a very important responsibility. And we should stay focused on that.

David Novak 42:14 

You know, you're in trouble when you see the account. You got it. Yeah, not

Tim Ryan 42:17 

so not a group of people you want on stage. But David, for me, it was right. When he came on, I knew there's a problem. And it again, through through years or years of development, my mother taught me something, which is we make a mistake on up to it. And and we clearly had made a mistake. And this is again, an important leadership lesson, because within minutes, I was on the side of the stage with our teams, we're getting all kinds of advice didn't have all the facts at this point. But frankly, I knew enough to know we made a mistake. And I'm very proud of the fact that within a matter of minutes, we're out with a statement that said, we own it, we made a mistake, we're gonna get to the bottom of it. And we did. And I think one of the biggest things leaders need to do is simply own up when you make a mistake. And in this case, the academy was our client. And we clearly made a mistake. And we sat with him publicly and on the issue. And we've significantly improved our processes going forward. So for me, again, an important leadership lesson, which is when you make a mistake just on it, don't don't worry about your brand. Don't worry about vehicle don't worry about risk. If you make a mistake on it, I live by the same bad news only gets worse. And if you've made a mistake, own up to it, and I felt horrible for the artist would work so hard to get that.

David Novak 43:33 

Tim it's it's this whole conversation has been so much fun for me. But I like want to have a little bit more fun with you. And ask you a lightning round of q&a. Sure. You're. So what would be the three words that best describe you?

Tim Ryan 43:47 

Humble, hardworking, and honest?

David Novak 43:50 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Tim Ryan 43:53 

So my biggest pet peeve is when people say we need to be thoughtful when we're debating a problem. Because the implication is that we're not going to be thoughtful.

David Novak 44:03 

Who would you want to be for a day and why?

Tim Ryan 44:05 

Oh, wow. I would love to be present United States for a day. And why? Because I think we're the best country in the world. And I'd love to tell people that and I'd like to see us come together even more to harness the power of this country.

David Novak 44:23 

What's a random fact about you that few people would know?

Tim Ryan 44:27 

My favorite meal that I indulge once a week is a cheeseburger and fries and one Bud Light?

David Novak 44:35 

Do you have a hidden talent?

Tim Ryan 44:38 

I'm not sure I would say I have a hidden talent except I am a really? I'm a really, really good listener.

David Novak 44:44 

You know, I understand. You're a marathoner. What was your best time?

Tim Ryan 44:48 

Oh, my desk time was 358 31 in the Chicago Marathon

David Novak 44:52 

up by 15 minutes. I was in the New York Marathon. So what's something about Ireland, you'd only know if you had parents who grew up there.

Tim Ryan 45:04 

One of the biggest things you would know is that their culture is incredibly hardworking. And there's no sympathy and just quick story, I broke my collarbone. When I was in high school playing hockey Canada, I spent eight hours in the hospital getting a set. My dad, we came home that Sunday night, and my mother took my arm and moved it up and down and said, it's not that bad. We don't get a lot of sympathy being from Ireland.

David Novak 45:29 

Now, you mentioned your mother taught you that when you make a mistake, you know, own up to okay, what's the single most important thing your father taught you?

Tim Ryan 45:37 

My My father taught me is not, don't go looking for praise, like you have a job to do. Go do it. And I get it. This isn't about getting praise no matter what you're doing. My father once said to me when I came in from cutting the grass, and I was looking for praise, and he goes, he goes, thanks for doing your job. And so it's no sounds

David Novak 45:54 

like a really good tough Irish family. Yes, great. I love that. You know, what would be three bits of advice, Tim you would give to aspiring leaders,

Tim Ryan 46:04 

I would first ask everybody to recognize your integrity is most important and largest small, we're all going to get our integrity tested, it could be watching your coworker be treated fairly, it could be a tough customer situation, and somebody might ask you to do something. Respect the fact that your integrity is yours, and do everything you can to protect it and grow it and it'd be my first one. The second one, do you work hard, they achieving great things. And being a leader, there's certain amount of time you have to put in, don't be afraid to work hard. And the last one is be optimistic. Nobody wants to follow pessimists. There are dozens and dozens, dozens of problems in our world today. Leaders are not the ones looking down the ground and kicking the dirt and saying This stinks. Leaders are the ones who say yes, that's a problem. Let's fix it and make it better be optimistic, and people will follow you.

David Novak 46:57 

Balances is so important in business. I mean, you this was one of the things that you do you know, you help your clients, you know, balance their books, make sure everything's right, you know, how do you make it happen in your personal life?

Tim Ryan 47:10 

Yeah. So you have to work at it I I've shared with many people, balances, I'm pushing a rock up the hill, like if someone can make it sound easy, but I almost wonder whether they're being intellectually honest. You have to work at it every day. And if you're pushing a rock up the hill, the second you stop, it'll run right over. And you need to appreciate the fact that it's just like saying shaped or marathon, you've got to constantly stay in shape to do it. So you've got to work at it. And I work at it every day. And I have I have six children their ages 12 to 20. And if I'm not constantly working at that, it'll overtake me. So it's constant work, have grown. And I wish I was more confident when I was younger. And early in my career. I've grown to be more disciplined with my calendar. So I don't have this utopia where I make everything. But the things that are important to me are in my calendar, and my calendar is set a year in advance. And the schools that my kids go to, they must think I'm insane. Because we're calling in August to find out what's going to happen in April to massively discipline with the calendar. And I've come to come to appreciate I've got to invest in myself. And that means finding time to make sure I shut down so I'm way more disciplined on my vacation my weekends. And I used to be in a combination OC things constant working very deliberate planning. And having the confidence to shut down throughout different times during the year is really important. I take a week's vacation every quarter, I would have never done that 10 years ago, I would encourage people to do that.

David Novak 48:34 

Who was the last person you recognized and why

Tim Ryan 48:39 

I would say this partner I spoke to this morning, and he had gone through a very difficult time. And at the end of it, I thanked him for what he's doing. I thanked him for persevering. I thank him for sticking through. I think you've got to constantly recognize people who are going through who accomplished things, or have gone through challenging times. For me. When people achieve a successful outcome, you know, applying a new piece of technology when a new client making a hard decision around quality. I want to recognize those, but it's even people who just make survived through a tough day. And you've got to recognize them. I've learned over time, a pat in the back or recognition goes way longer than anything else. And I recognized this partner I spoke to this morning for an hour.

David Novak 49:21 

Well, Tim, I think you know, thank you. I don't know if it's one word or two words. I think that's the most powerful thing you can say to anybody when you see them really doing a good job. It's just a powerful, powerful phrase that needs to be said more often. And I want to thank you for just being so open and honest and giving us your leadership insights today. Appreciate it very much.

Tim Ryan 49:41 

Thank you David for having me. Thank you for your work take care yourself.

David Novak 49:53 

Well, I have to tell you, I really appreciate the people at PwC spoke up and sparked that conversation and teeth out Since 16, and I appreciate that Tim was willing to listen to his team, and then pivot his whole company to focus on diversity and inclusion, listening takes courage and time, and empathy, and true humility to see the wisdom of someone else's perspective. And now, it's time for me to give you a little coaching. This week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I've got a fun challenge for you. And this one might even test you look at your calendar and pick one meeting where you know, there's going to be a discussion about an important decision. Then during that meeting, don't offer your opinion. Just listen. Ask questions. Draw out the wisdom and perspective of your team. I think you're going to be amazed at how much you learn and how much better prepared you're going to be. When it comes time to make the decision. Give it a try. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders listen to different perspectives. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be