David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. And today's guest is National Hockey League Hall of Famer Mark Messier A. And to be honest, this man hardly needs an introduction. I mean, think about this. He won six Stanley Cups in his one of the NHL is all time leading goal scorers. He's an absolute legend in the game. And he's widely regarded as one of the best leaders not only in hockey, but in all sports. He's known as being the captain, because he knows how to lead. And I can't tell you, I am so excited for you to get a glimpse into this guy's leadership style. I want you to see the incredible awareness he has for the people around them. I never even played hockey, I have no idea how to even score a goal. But I do know this, you can't win all those Stanley Cups alone. And Mark's team succeed is so often because he was always tuned into his teammates, and he knew how to raise the bar and help them achieve. He knew how they were feeling. What motivated them what they needed in that big moment. He calls it a spidey sense, but it's the kind of superpower we can actually get better at. And this conversation with Mark is the best way to learn that great leaders stay tuned in to their people. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Mark messy a

every leader has their own style and their own way of leading. And today's guest is Hall of Fame hockey legend Mark Messier, who is known as the moose, the Messiah, the captain, and he's described by many as perhaps the greatest team leader in the history of any sport. I'm not talking hockey, I'm talking any sport. Mark, thanks so much for taking the time to have this conversation. Great to be here with you, David.

David Novak 2:20 

can't wait to talk to you about leadership. But before we get started everybody, I want you to just get a load of this. You know, Mark played a staggering 26 seasons was a six time Stanley Cup champion and the only player to Captain two different Stanley Cup teams. He's so renowned for his leadership that the National Hockey League established the mark Messier. A Leadership Award is also a distinguished Officer of Canada for his contributions to hockey as an outstanding player and Captain and his ability to influence children. Now mark, there's this you know, old song, it's like, oh, Lord, it's hard to be humble. You know? How in the heck do you do it?

Mark Messier 3:03 

Well, I got people around me that telling me the truth. It's a good place to start with this surrounding yourself with really good people. And I think for me personally, you know, one of the gifts that I was afforded very early on, as I never really identified myself with Mark Messier, the player, but always mark messy person. And, and I think with that you can kind of really separate the two, and not get too caught up into all the things that came my way through through the world of sport and hockey. So and like I say, good people around me that tell me what I need to hear not necessarily what I want to hear.

David Novak 3:47 

Mark, when I met you for the first time I said to myself, this guy, he is straight out of central casting, if you are going to cast the leader, and this guy is and he looks like a leader, he acts like the leader. You know, I have to ask you, do you believe that you're you're just a naturally born leader?

Mark Messier 4:03 

I don't I think there's some parts of DNA that people have the end traits that attract other people to them. But I think it's also part learned. You know, I think it's, for me, I know that I was an amazing father and a family life that I learned a lot from both as, as a person and as a leader. I was surrounded by great people throughout my home minor hockey and and into pro hockey that were great leaders. And so I think you really, if you're curious enough, you start watching and listening enough to start to see what works and what doesn't work for you personally. And that's what I did. And so I think it might have been a combination of the two, but I don't know if anybody's equipped to just be born a leader without any kind of training or learning along the way.

David Novak 4:56 

You know, you're described as the quintessential leader, what do you think Mark is the essence of leadership?

Mark Messier 5:03 

Well, there's just so many elements to it, as you would know, for me, I knew that I needed people around me to have success. And the only way in a team sport to have success is to try to maximize the performance of each and every one of the people that around you. And make them believe that their contributions are absolutely necessary for any team's success. And and so that's, I think that's one element. The other element for me would be that you gotta establish relationships that go further than just the game itself, which takes time, and it's harder and harder and harder in our world where players change teams more rapidly than they used to be. But as a leader, I think you have to be, you know, very, very conscious of the fact that in order to give anybody Well, John, you know, well, first of all, Abe Lincoln said, No man can govern another without his consent. And a great coach John Wooden, used to say, give good coaching has been able to give correction without resentment. And so if you really think of those two quotes, which I kind of really are the pillars of my, of my beliefs in leadership is that in order to lead someone, they have to give you their permission, and that permission has to be earned. And I think you earn it through developing relationships. So you can tell them the truth, and they don't take it. Take it personally. And so then you just start to foster those relationships. And the other thing, I guess, what I would say is that you got to be willing to be completely open, completely transparent, and who you are and what you stand for, and your consistency and your personality. You don't waver in good times and bad, doesn't mean you're completely exposed and vulnerable. And you got to be doing the right things consistently. But I think you when you do that, it gives everybody a sense of calm around you.

David Novak 6:52 

Tell us a story Mark about your childhood that really shaped your your leadership. You mentioned your dad.

Mark Messier 7:00 

Well, I think it starts with my dad and I was lucky enough to have a father that had played semi professional hockey, he really understood the game of hockey for many different aspects. He was a mentor to many of the kids that he coached. He knew the game from a technical standpoint, but more importantly, he really knew the game from the emotional standpoint. He was a real team guy. He wasn't necessarily the most talented guy, but he, he did lead the league in defenseman and goals a couple years, but he was a battler. He was a fighter, he was stuck up for his teammates. And, and he knew that the power was with it within his teammates. And so I think, you know, I look back at I had the ability to not only coach me when I was younger, but I also had the ability to see him, mentor young kids, when I was maybe 1213 years old, I was a stick boy for the, for the junior team that my brother was playing on, my dad was coaching. So I saw him really kind of, you know, take these kids under his wing, believe in them, give them an amazing amount of confidence, because of his belief in them. The way he handled them the way he told the truth. The way he galvanized the team together and watching him talk to the team in the dressing rooms being on the bench, you know, through some championship series and just all those things that, you know, words resonated with me so strongly until I was able to, you know, get into a position where I was responsible for some of the leadership of the team that that I drew on and, you know, that's where I would start.

David Novak 8:35 

You know, I understand, you know, you joined up with fellow Hall of Famer Wayne Gretzky with the Edmonton Oilers. I think when you're both around 18 years old, I'm sure coming up. When you were a kid, you were like, by far and away better than almost everyone that you played with. What was it like to see a player as talented as Wayne Gretzky for the first time?

Mark Messier 9:00 

Well, you know, it's I had a funny start to my minor hockey we were living in Portland, Oregon, where my dad was playing semi professional hockey and they didn't have minor hockey in Portland at the time. So he was responsible for actually started the whole minor league system of youth hockey in Portland. After I retired when I was about seven years old, we moved back to Edmonton, Alberta. My brother was three years older than me, and he was playing peewee hockey, I should have been playing, you know, two or three years below that. But my dad was coaching a team he thought it'd be a more efficient use of his time to have his both on the team. So I was seven years old, I was playing against 10 and 11 year olds. And so I so it was it was it was good for me in one way as it forced me to have to keep up with the older kids. But to answer your question, I never really excelled at the minor league level. I was a late developer late bloomer, I didn't grow to as little older you know, it's fortunate to guess I guess, you know, make junior hockey when I was 15. So I was always again playing against older kids. And it wasn't only till my last year of junior that I started to play against, you know, my peer group that I started to kind of hold my own and thought that there might be a future and this, you know, fast forward to when we both turned professional at 17 years old. I was going in a plane going to Indianapolis, to join the WHA with with the Indianapolis racers, and Wayne had just been sold from Indianapolis racers to Edmonton. And so we crossed paths in the air but still hadn't met. And we finally met in training camp and then the fall of 1979 when the Oilers went into the to the NHL, and but I had known a lot about Wayne growing up. There was a article written about him and Canadian magazine when he was nine years old about this phenom that was scoring, you know, 370 goals a year. And 405 100 assists, just unbelievable numbers. And so I'm eight days older and Wayne so I I knew of Wayne but he grew up on the East Coast. I grew up on the on the west coast. But he was on everybody's radar as a as a young Canadian hockey player that he was going to do something at the NHL level that probably had never been seen before.

David Novak 11:13 

So when you saw him, did you think he was better than you? Or did you think you guys were right in the same league? Or?

Mark Messier 11:20 

Well, I remember driving to practice one day playing junior hockey and my dad. I was driving because I had my learner's permit. And you know, we knew about Wayne and I was kind of starting to play okay. And so I looked over my dad, I said, Dad, do you think, you know, Wayne is way better than me. And he kind of coughed and we better stopped for some gas over here. He was. So he didn't want to burst my bubble. But it was apparent that Wayne was so much further advanced in his in his skill development, so much advanced in his mental approach to the game so further advanced in his off ice exposure, that it was remarkable to watch. But you know, not many times can you look at as someone in your own peer group and look up up to them as role models. But I have to say that I learned a lot from Wayne watching him in practice the way he approached the games, the way he lived off the ice, his his concentration and as an as discipline to the game. It was just a, I wouldn't say alarming to me, but it really made me pay attention to what I was doing myself in order to become a better player.

David Novak 12:34 

You in Gretzky, you go on and win for Stanley Cups together, your close friends, then he gets traded to Los Angeles. You are creating a dynasty at Edmond first. Sure. And you're split up. How did this impact you?

Mark Messier 12:49 

It was devastating to be honest with you, you know, we had come together in 1979 expansion team. For us to make the playoffs The first year was remarkable, I guess. Nobody expected much of us to five years later winning a Stanley Cup creating a brotherhood with not only Wayne but the rest of the guys to winning four Stanley Cups and five years and hadn't even reached our peak of our careers yet. And that summer of 1988 after we won our first cup, there started to be some rumblings that they were going to trade Wayne Gretzky and go with me to go to trade Wayne Gretzky, you can trade the greatest player ever to play the game of hockey in the peak of his career when we're, you know, trying to win maybe 234, or five more Stanley Cups because we're destined to. And sure enough, when they when they traded. I mean, it was it was hard to swallow, actually, to be honest with you was that it was devastating. from a professional standpoint, it was super devastating, just because of the friendships that we had created.

David Novak 13:50 

What advice can you give to others when when you lose the top talent on your team?

Mark Messier 13:55 

Well, I think for us, you know, after we were forced to digest it, I think what really kind of came through for all of us is that we still had a responsibility, first and foremost to each other. We had a responsibility to the fans in Edmonton. And we had a responsibility even though we were mad at the organization, we still had a responsibility to the organization. And I think through you know, the the mourning process or whatever you want to call it, we had enough leadership on the team to realize that, okay, we're dealt a bad blow one that we didn't foresee coming, but you know, what are we going to do about it, you know, what's our future hold for each and every one of us and we really buckled down and maybe even galvanized together, more so than ever before. And sure enough, you know, a couple years later, we're able to win our shift Stanley Cup and in seven years so I think that when you play a team sport, you're really at the mercy of the people around you. And and you know, you're not privileged to some of the decisions that are ever made. So The only thing you really can't control is what you can control. So I think that was kind of our guiding light to say look at, you know, we're still a good team, we still are responsible to each other. And sure enough, we were able to win another Stanley Cup and in 1991.

David Novak 15:16 

So Mark, you know, you are known for being the captain, I mean, the the Captain, what has been the captain mean to you?

Mark Messier 15:23 

I think one of the things that you need to do as a captain is you need to be able to find a way to galvanize a team. And you need to, to, as I mentioned earlier, need to figure out a way to socialize away from the rink, to understand how everybody is motivated, where they've come from, what kind of childhood they lived, what what were the factors in them becoming a pro, you know, what were the things that really kind of inspired them to be a professional hockey player, and kind of find that commonality as a group and some teams, it takes longer to find that and you look at the teams that actually win, there's always something that galvanized the team together. So you know, as a captain, you're always looking for that. And so, obviously, a way to do some of that is to spend quality time with the players on and off the ice. And, and when I say the, the second thing is that, you know, you're our family, you're an extended family, you have to be inclusive, to everybody. And, and, and the girlfriends and wives are a huge part of the players success, and you want them to feel part of the team success. And, you know, all the teams that I played on, we had a great group of girls, we really enjoyed each other's time. And, and we created a real family atmosphere that, in the end, when I look back at some of the things that you know, we did well and didn't do well, one of the things that we did really well is was created that kind of environment. And I think it would lead to great success because

David Novak 16:52 

as I mentioned earlier, your nickname was moose because of your strength and your aggression and your intimidation on the ice and you've got the trademark iron jaw. But when Gretzky left the hockey experts that I've read about, they say you went from being a physical player to a finesse player, which almost seems funny to be but you know, the only guy to do that, like you did it is the hall of famer Gordie Howe. How hard was it for you to change your mindset and become the best playmaker in the game? Or did you ever see it that way? I

Mark Messier 17:26 

didn't really see it that way to my game was never about goals and assist. I mean, I was kind of always under the impression that every game brought a new set of challenges. And you just tried to figure out a way to solve the puzzle each and every night. And sometimes it took scoring goals. Sometimes it took time to be more physical, sometimes, you had to sit back and let other people take the lead. And it just was different all the time. And that's what really kind of was so interesting to me, as I got later in my career is that you just never knew, or one of the things that really kind of kept me playing for 26 years was sort of trying to solve those riddles. Each and every training camp. You actually, you know,

David Novak 18:09 

you've mentioned that that you went on to win your fifth cup in Edmonton and 9090. Was it even more special for you? Because you, you did it without Gretzky? Well,

Mark Messier 18:21 

a lot of people thought it would be but I didn't really look at it that way. I looked at as, as when when God traded that we really lost a brother and and it was really hard for us to get over that. I remember winning the Stanley Cup. And just being so proud of the guys, the young kids that were on the team that played a huge role. The the veterans that were there, through the way in years at you know, stayed steadfast and provided an amazing leadership to the whole team. And it just that super sense of pride that you're able to accomplish something that probably a lot of people didn't think you could. And then at the same time thinking that wishing you know, Wayne would have been there with us to celebrate another one. So I was conflicted. I didn't think that I had to prove anything that you know, we could win without Wayne, you talk about being egoless I mean, I never I understood when and his impact on us you could probably take away and and put them on any one of our division rivals there and they might have been the ones that won four or five cups as well. I mean, he was that big of impact. But at the same time, we all knew that we played a role on the team that supported him. And so I didn't feel that I need personally to justify my own leadership or my own steadfast belief in myself or my place in was hockey history. I just I just remember distinctly being more saddened and joyful that we weren't.

David Novak 19:53 

You were definitely viewed as the heart and soul of the team and and he got most of the attention because of his you know superstardom I guess and you are a superstar to, but it never really bothered you that he was called The Great One or there's no jealousy, no rivalry.

Mark Messier 20:07 

Well, he was. I was privileged, not only myself, but everybody who played with him for all those years to witness sheer genius every day. In practice in the games, the way he handled the press, the way he grew the game, it was remarkable. And for anybody not to sit there. I mean, I know I became a better player playing with Wayne. I never tried to be Wayne. I never tried to compete with Wayne. I knew I had a role in the team and I needed to be the very best I could be in that role to to help the team become the champions. We weren't so there was never a competition, there was never an ego thing about who was better. And I think Wayne would say the same thing.

David Novak 20:49 

That's fantastic. You know, you, you say you end up leaving Edmonton you go the New York Rangers and and when you went to the Rangers, they hadn't won a cup since 1940. This Hugo 9091, it was actually called the curse in New York, it never going to win a cup. What made you decide to take on that challenge?

Mark Messier 21:09 

Well, it's interesting, we had lost in the semi finals, my last year in Edmonton. And I had come off a knee injury during the regular season, I wasn't healthy. And, you know, we went on that run of five cups and seven years, last the next year. And you could kind of just see that the team was changing directions. A lot of the guys that were there for the run, were getting older being traded. And it just felt to me that it was over. I mean, there was just nothing for me left to give physically, mentally, emotionally. And I just really needed to I knew I wasn't finished playing hockey, per se, but I needed to change professionally and I needed a change, personally, and so when you really start to think about, you know, what challenges would really kind of get you motivated again, you obviously start with original six teams, you know, Montreal, Toronto, New York, Boston, you know, all the teams that you know, Detroit, Chicago, but being an avid traveler and wanting to see the world and coming to New York and knowing what New York had to offer. Personally, not to mention the challenge of winning and, you know, original six city of this magnitude with this much attention on the team. It was just the combination was just too good to be passed up. And so I asked him to trade me to New York, and the rest was history.

David Novak 22:34 

So you come in and you're actually now you got a new nickname, You're the Messiah, you know, you're gonna take the promised slaves. And when I think about it, Tom Brady is facing something similar. Then he left the Patriots. And he's now a Tampa Bay Buccaneers. What advice would you give him on how to handle the pressure of coming in as the superstar that's supposed to get you to the big cup?

Mark Messier 22:55 

Well, I don't think Tom needs any advice from me. He's done pretty well on his own. But I but I found what I found interesting, leaving Edmonton and being really confident and what I had learned and experiences that I had, what I didn't anticipate coming to New York is that all those lessons that I've learned along the way and all the experiences, I wasn't going to be able to share with my new teammates, because they weren't interested in what Wayne and I had done in Edmonton together, what cups, the only thing they were interested in is what I was going to do with them and our experiences together. So I had to figure out a way to use that experience and all those lessons, but not in a way that I was talking about Edmonton or talking about Wayne Wayne and I did it this way, we had our dressing room set up this way we traveled this way, we got ready for the game this way. And when I realized that it was like, Oh, now what do I do? Now I'm really stuck, I got I got this book of of how to win and I can't use it. But what I really realized is that you you just start to dig in, in your approach and the way you prepare your work ethic, the way you talk to your teammates, the way you talk to the media. And pretty soon you start to talk about the culture of the of your new team and Institute certain things but never with the reference this is why it worked and why it didn't work and whatever it always just with the thought that maybe this is a good idea if it doesn't maybe we'll change it but and then you kind of drag them into the process which is absolutely critical to any team success at everybody feels a part of it. And they're a part of creating a new culture they're you know, they're they like it, they don't like it if you don't like it, we change it if it's good, bad or indifferent, but they're part of the process and I think that's one of the things that Tom will find going to Tampa is that it is going to be vastly different from where he came from. You know, players are going to be looking at him to to see how he prepares and all that which is obvious, but just really digging into the trenches and spending time with his new teammates, so they know that they're, that he's in with them. And whatever happened in his past life is gone. He's only worried about one thing and how they're going to become champions in Tampa.

David Novak 25:14 

What kind of attitude Mark did you try to instill as the new captain to the Rangers? What was the biggest challenge you had to give him?

Mark Messier 25:20 

Well, the one of the things that I remember about my, maybe it was my was a month into coming to New York, and we had a bad game. And, and I kind of addressed the press saying that, you know, you know, that's just not acceptable. From a player standpoint, from coaching, managing something into the fact that, you know, the Rangers, we need to be better overall. And so I got called in the office next day and said, Mark, you know, if you have something, voiced some concerns about the way things are going, maybe we should just keep it quiet, because you know, this is kind of a publicly traded company, and we might not want to be upsetting the share price. So that was a that was interesting. Well, what

David Novak 26:04 

do you think when they told you to clamp it? I mean, you're out there, you're telling people what you believe you believe in truth. And now they're telling you, Hey, Mark, Keep it keep it quiet? Well,

Mark Messier 26:13 

I realized that there's a big part of it is, is that the messaging coming from actually inside the dressing room is super important to your fan base. I mean, the writers are going to write what they write, and the skeptics are going to write what they want. And in all this external arguments, or, or writings or commentary is going to happen. But if you can get a really decisive message coming directly from the source inside the dressing to the fan base, you can create a connection there. So so that was okay, we just had to do it a different way and work around it. I mean, that's just what you got to do, right. But at the same time, they're also was a sense of not wanting to talk about winning the Stanley Cup for the fact that we're going to put too much pressure on everybody. And I realized right away, that was a craziest thing I've ever heard. I mean, if we if we don't, you know, know where we're going, how are we going to get there? You know, I remember my first year in 1979, we got these beautiful winter coats as a Christmas gift in the dressing room. And when I looked inside, this is an expansion team brain inside it was 1979. Inception and then 1980, Stanley Cup champions, you know, 1980, blank, Stanley Cup champions. So already the subliminal messaging was going on is that we're going to win, at some point, are you going to be on this gravy train or not? So I don't think you can be successful if you don't want to talk about it, and you don't create the vision and the roadmap of how you're going to get there. And so I think that was one of the things that we just had to start doing. Of course, you know, Mike Keenan came in the third year and showed the ticker tape parade of what it would look like, you know, down the canyon and heroes and so you just start that whole process of changing the culture and the dialect of the team, that internal dialect that is so critical to the way you think of yourself as a as a person. And as a player. When you think of yourself as a team, what the expectations are, things had to change.

David Novak 28:04 

I heard a very insightful story about what happened in the locker room where a range Ranger Jersey had fallen to the floor. Do you remember that story? Mark? Well, I

Mark Messier 28:14 

think there's always stories like that. And and I think the respect of the jersey and it's, you know, you could look at the Jersey as a piece of cloth with a name and a number on it. Or you could look at it at all the great men and women that have had worn jerseys in the past to create the history and the create the incredible moments for fans and people and like, so it becomes much more sacred than just a piece of cloth. So I think that and the respect of that, and knowing that the players around you have that respect for it. And if they have the respect for that, then they're going to have the respect for themselves. And if they have the respect from themselves, they're going to have respect for their teammates. And so you can see where the whole chain starts to happen when you when you start doing things the right way.

David Novak 28:59 

You know, after you talked about there shouldn't be a ranger jersey on the floor. I don't think it ever felt on that floor.

Mark Messier 29:08 

Well, putting pride in the jersey is a good first step on any team winning formula.

David Novak 29:14 

You go to the Raiders, you know, when New York at the time was notorious for always, you know, bringing in signing the big name players who were always like one or two years past their prime. And there are a lot of people when you came from Edmond in New York who thought that you might be past your prime that your better days were behind you. How much did that motivate you?

Mark Messier 29:36 

Well, you know, when I came to New York, I was 31. And there was an article in the paper that said I was actually 62 Because if you take 31 at times if I had to because of all the playoff games that I played at all the years already and all the miles that I had on me, that was actually 62 and hockey year so I was over the hill. So you know what, in some regards, they were right. You know, I had played a lot of hockey as a 31 year rolled, you know, six cups and 10 years, countless Canada cups in the summertime all sorts of games that it was basically boiling down to, you know, 11 months of hockey for a long time. So they weren't wrong, but I wasn't anywhere near done physically. It was not anywhere near done mentally. In fact, mentally, I felt probably more empowered than I ever had, when it came to New York, because of the experiences I had. I was blessed with only a few minor injuries. Throughout my career, one would be in a knee injury that was just stretched ligaments, which is basically, you know, just some rehab and strengthening and so clean bill of health and that motivated me but not motivated me more than when I got to New York and, and got to witness the passion from the fan base here from generations of fans that had never seen a Stanley Cup who had supported the team only to be disappointed in defeat. That is, it was so inspiring. And you know, I just when I think about an hours, it was one of the huge motivators for me is to be a part of a team that could actually end that. You know, that 50 At the time, 51 year, year drove,

David Novak 31:14 

you know, in your first season as a ranger, you prove the critics wrong. Obviously, you led the team to the division title, you win the MVP, but the next year, you guys don't even make the playoffs. The team didn't even get into the playoffs, you know, what did you learn from that experience?

Mark Messier 31:28 

What I was really kind of encouraged when I came here was all the young talent they have, you know, especially with Brian Leach. And then soon after Mike Richter and Alex Kovalev and Sergei Zubov, all the young superstars I came in here. But what I did learn that year is that you know, there's a lot of things that are under your control. If you've won before, and you've experienced winning, you know, the difference between winning hockey games or actually having a winning hockey team. And even though we won the President's Trophy, you know, and we played really well. And it was exciting. And there was we brought a lot of hope there were still holes on the team that needed to be addressed. And we got to expose this to the second year. And we got to expose in second year because we did have some injuries, namely to Brian Leach and and others. That left us on the outside looking in, which was very tough, but one of the things, you know that there's always a silver lining, you know, I talked about it all the time. My experience in New York early on is that, you know, we won the President's Trophy the first year only to be defeated in the playoffs, like they had like every Ranger Team had every other year, only to go to the next year and you know, completely hit rock bottom, you we could not have hit more rock bottom or me personally as a player coming to New York, and then the third year rising up above the ashes and, and going on and winning after 54 years. So I think that experience alone made it so much more impactful for me to experience that the great high all the way down to see and feel what it was like in New York to be, you know, at the very lowest you can as an athlete and then come out of that and then the win. I think it just made the experience that much more special.

David Novak 33:18 

You know, that season where you didn't make the playoffs? I remember the last game you were basically booed throughout the game that the team was booed. How did that motivate the team in you?

Mark Messier 33:28 

Well, at the time. I don't know if motivating would be the right word. But you know, I grew up in Edmonton who didn't have NHL hockey. I grew up in Edmonton that didn't even have professional hockey until 1972. But you can only imagine the passion that there was a western city, Montreal Canadiens Toronto Maple Leafs, all the regionals, six teams, my uncle's passionate hockey fans had their favorites, you know, in expansion that we got a team out west and Vancouver. And so I came from a city, an expansion team and in the NHL, that had an incredible fan base and small town that was in a isolated box of hockey centric people and a tremendous amount of pressure. And I think it's one of the things that actually if you use it the right way and regulated right way and you can you can use as fuel. And so when I came to New York, I understood this frustration and the or at least I could put the frustration of the fans in context. And you'd like to say you don't take it personally but I did take it personally. And I took it as my fault and I wanted to do something about it.

David Novak 34:43 

You in the Rangers you do get back in the playoffs. So 1994 Good and you do win the cup but you're playing New Jersey on the way to the finals. You're down three to two in the games, the fans of media once again go on here we go again, and you have The courage or I don't know if it's courage or whatever it was you want to whatever,

Mark Messier 35:03 

plain stupidity.

David Novak 35:07 

However you want to say that the Rangers will win game seven, what made you say it? And then what was it like the next day when you pick up the papers and you're seeing headlines and says we will win. I mean, you're a pretty humble guy basis, this conversation what I know of you,

Mark Messier 35:22 

you know, every time we did something good with the Rangers that year, we had an amazing year, you know, when the President's Trophy sent all kinds of Team records. But we're always reminded every time we did something good that the team that did the same kind of thing always ended up in defeat in the first round, second round. So we're always met with this great accolade about something that we did, but then reminded that the same team that did the same thing, didn't win the Stanley Cup. So, you know, there's always a constant reminder for us as as players, and you can't get away from it, you just have to embrace it. And so when we got into that situation, you know, after the first two rounds, and we're cruising through, and we got up against a great New Jersey Devil team that had just kind of started to emerge as themselves, you know, with Broder and Ned, and a great defense that they had and the coach and, you know, I think the thing that saved us is that we were able to beat New Jersey six times during the regular season. And as a captain, you're always monitoring the mental state of your team, both as a as a team and as individuals. And, you know, it's it's kind of a spider sense that you get, and sometimes when I talked earlier in the conversation, but being very honest and open. That was one of the times that you know, it would just seem to be that the team. Although I could have said it to them, and I did say it to him privately. But I wasn't so much measuring it's two, three for the for them to wake up and read in the papers as I was measuring it. To the press, I was, I was speaking to the president look at I really believe we can win this game. I really believe we can go on there. And when because we've done it before we've done it six times. And of course, the next it was great bulletin board, you know, material the next day, but I wanted the team to really believe that we could win and I wanted them to believe that we could win. And sure enough, we're able to go and win a game six and in game seven. But you know, in a nutshell, I knew how close we were I knew we had a good enough team to win the Stanley Cup. I knew we were facing a tough opponent, I knew we came to one of those seminal moments that you face in any playoff year on a way that Stanley Cup day you have to look each other in the eye and ask each other do we have more to give? Or is this it for us? We had to figure out a way to overcome that hurdle. And were able to you know, it

David Novak 37:41 

was like Babe Ruth calling the home run, you know, pointing out to the stands is like name has said, you know, we're gonna win the you know, we're in the Super Bowl. It was it was a historic sporting moment, no question about but then you had to go out and back it up is like Ruth the name and did and you just scored a hat trick and the final period and you come from behind? What did you feel like when you saw the team was down to Oh, okay, right off the bat. And you were in such a hole? How did you lift the team up?

Mark Messier 38:10 

Well, I think it's I don't think I did lift the team up. I think Mike Richter lifted the team up. But I think when I got to nuttin, it was it was a tale of two games, we knew that we had lost momentum. Jersey was a great team. They had a lot of sides, a lot of skill, a lot of defense, great goaltending. They came at us which we knew, and exactly what probably we expected. But we're hoping it didn't, they got off to a to nothing lead, we decided to figure out a way to stay in it. And thankfully, Mike Richter just completely stood on his head, or it could have been four or five nothing after the first half of the game. But we're lucky enough to get a goal which was interesting, right towards the end of the second period. And New Jersey had always been kind of known as a defensive team. But when it came out in that game six, eight completely old skated sa four checked us, they were really honest in every way, and it was just a landslide of a game. But when we scored that goal, late in the second period, when we came out to the third period, they had kind of got back into a little more defensive posture, which allowed us to really start to tilt the game the other way. And, and maybe it was a little inexperienced, maybe they were trying to hold on to that one goal lead. I don't know what it was. But for whatever reason, we seem to get our footing. And I believe that goal at the end of the second kind of, you know, we went into the dressing room after being completely dominated for two periods, with a sense of hope. But you know, let's just go and have a good period. It's just whatever we do, let's just put it all aside, go and have a good third period, and just see what happens. So we kind of maybe relieved the pressure on ourselves in some ways that we got one period to do it and and sure enough, we're able to turn the tides and win that game, but I still say Mike Richter, save the day.

David Novak 39:54 

You then go on you do win the championship by beating Vancouver, and you're hoisting the Cup for the sixth time. And my understanding is you handed the cup actually over to the fans. What made you do that? Anybody ever done that before?

Mark Messier 40:11 

Well, the first Stanley Cup we had ever wanted Everton, the fans poured over the glass. And so you look at the the videos of those old cups, you can see all the fans were actually on the ice. I remember the dying moments of the game and in New York, and you could see all the police around the glass to kind of keep some order, hopefully, if we had one, or even if we didn't, but coming from a small town in Edmonton and having success that we did there, I just knew the connection was so powerful between the team and the fans, and how much it meant to the fans in so many ways. And it was one of those times that I wish it could have just taken the glass down and everybody would have poured like they do onto a football field in high school or college or one of those where everybody just rushed the ice and we all celebrated it together till the wee hours of the morning. But, you know, it was just, it was just instinctual, I think and I just kind of because of my past experience, I just knew how much I meant to them.

David Novak 41:13 

When you look back, what are the little things that have to happen for a team to come together like the Rangers did? And you basically became sort of like the ultimate team together? And then what advice can you give the leaders on how to make that happen?

Mark Messier 41:27 

Well, I think the big thing for us is that we had some amazing young players like you know, Kovalev and Zubov and leech and Richter, we had a great group of veterans to complement those guys, we became a really solid team through the commonality of doing something that hadn't been done in 54 years. And of course, there's little things along the way that that galvanize a team. And as you know, there could be a horrible experience in the family, there could be a great someone gave birth to a child. I mean, there could be anything that happens that for whatever reason, the team galvanizes round, you're obviously

David Novak 42:07 

Mark, a very tough guy, and but you're not afraid to show emotions. And you know, you'll even shed a tear every now and then. How important do you think that is? For being a leader? Well, I

Mark Messier 42:21 

don't know. I think there's different types of leadership, I think being completely open and transparent, honest, you know, is is critical, I think, you know, being vulnerable, is not a sign of weakness. I think being compassionate is not a sign of weakness, I think being tolerant is not a sign of weakness, I think that consistency is super important. I think the team or your players or your workers or wherever you're leading has to really understand you and know you. And you know, and I think those vulnerabilities are a part of that, and not to pretend that you're Teflon, you don't have your own insecurities, or whatever, but you figure out how to deal with them. And you're here to make everybody better, and you might make mistakes. But I think the word some leaders fail is that they're trying to be too perfect. They're trying to be something that they're not, they're not willing to be vulnerable. If you, you know, establish those relationships that we talked about earlier, and you do make a mistake, they know you made a mistake of trying to do something that was best for the team, and you can recover from that. But if you don't have the backing of the people, you're trying to lead and you make a mistake, it's like, Haha, it's a gotcha moment. And that that bond and trust is broken. So you know, it's really kind of a fine line that you walk as a leader and, and I certainly learned a lot and I don't take it lightly for anybody that's in a position. Now. You know, if you

David Novak 43:53 

were going to build a team from scratch, what behaviors would you drive in your culture?

Mark Messier 43:59 

Well, that's a that's a great question. I mean, it's creating an environment that is conducive to winning hold people accountable. And it's your beacon and guidelines, goalposts to anytime a decision has to be made both externally and internally, that you can kind of rely on that to see if any one person can fit into the mold that you're trying to create. And look at I always said that, you know, winning seems to be like a great time and it is obviously when you're when it's a great time, but when it can be sure how winning is a toughest thing that that you ever do because it's hard. And it's in a lot of is required a view on and off the ice, a lot of really require the view, to grow as a person to figure out how to be a champion because you just start a champion from seven o'clock to 10 o'clock at night. You have to become a champion the way you live your life and that's when we start talking about culture. Those are things that you have to get into

David Novak 44:51 

our friend Doug Hirsch had you speak at the psalm conference and he said they always have fabulous speakers and he told me you're the only one that's He's received a standing ovation in 25 years that they've had that conference,

Mark Messier 45:04 

I told that that wasn't because of my speech, I was because of the Ranger fans who were there. And we brought the Stanley Cup.

David Novak 45:11 

You know, as a leader, though you are called on to give the big speech, how do you prepare for that?

Mark Messier 45:18 

I think it comes from complete place of authentic emotion. It's not like it's delivered without any kind of thought behind it. I think, like I said earlier, you're always taking the temperature of the team psychologically, emotionally, physically, as a group and as as individuals. And you can kind of tell if the team starts to lean a little bit one way or start to lean a little bit off course the other way, and you're really there just to guide it back into the lane. And sometimes things need to be addressed. And I always felt that being completely honest, no matter how hard the the news that you had to deliver to the team, or to any individual was important for me, because I needed to be able to go home and sleep at night. Because I was because I had to live it I had to live 30 or 35 lives during the regular season. And if I was worried about everybody's how they accepted any kind of constructive criticism, you know, I wouldn't get any sleep. And so I think that by telling the truth, what I really did was I put the onus back on them to make a decision of how they wanted to react to that information. And the getting right back to where we started. If if, if I don't have that relationship that they believe me, and trust me, then of course, they can take that as that information as resentment. And then that's brings on a whole nother episode, but of something that a leader has to deal with. But so I really tried to be super honest, I, I addressed the facts very matter of factly, I challenged the team. And I left no stone unturned. Then, because of it. We weren't talking in pockets. We weren't talking around corners, we weren't whispering. Everything was an open book. And because of it, we weren't Clicky. You know, I had great leaders around me that could continue to deliver the message that I had for the players. And so it wasn't only coming from one source, every word every where they went, whether they're laying on the training table, they're hearing the same story from the trainer, if they went into the stick room, they're hearing the same story from the stick guy. So no matter where they turned it was the same messaging going on. And that's why you have to have great people around you,

David Novak 47:38 

Mark, you seem to be a real student of leadership. But when did you when did this happen?

Mark Messier 47:43 

Well, I don't know if I was always a student of leadership, I think what happened to me is that I was getting an education probably without even me knowing it at younger from my father. And then turning pro and, and seeing great, great leaders like you know, LIFO Glen and Ron Chipperfield, and our first captains, and then Wayne taking over and Teddy green, and our assistant coach who recently passed away who had so much respect for, you know, you just get around people that have those leadership capabilities. Until you're put in that position, you don't really know. You know, I guess when I became captain, I think I was well equipped. When when left, I didn't need to change much. I stayed vocal in the dressing room, I guess the only thing that really changed for me when he left as I had to become a more prominent offensive player, which I was able to do, but everything else as far as the leadership, I just stayed the same.

David Novak 48:40 

Mark, how have you transferred your your leadership on the ice now to to off the ice?

Mark Messier 48:46 

Well, I think there's so many parallels that I didn't expect when I retired. And I started into private sector and, and talking to people and tried to train to build companies and knocking on doors and going into boardrooms and just sitting back and watching people and analyzing people and watching CEOs come into the room and watching the team around them how you're greeted when you first get off the elevator. And you could really tell the difference between cultures in the office place, which I found just fascinating, because I didn't really expect that. And I'd first of all, I didn't really expect to go in there and start analyzing different companies. But it just came to me naturally because I'd spent so much time with people. So it just struck me how evident it was. We're we're a company that was being run by a CEO that was leading from behind or it didn't have the normal pyramid structure where you You're literally padding to different seats to get on top. You know, it's run more of a circular where everybody's on the circle and everybody's got an oar in the water rowing in the same direction. So it was fascinating to me and I just think that you know, no matter you know what you're trying to do or what you're trying to build or what company you're trying to, it's all in the people you've got Have you got to empower the people somehow?

David Novak 50:02 

Now, what are your business interests? today? I know you, you mentioned you have a passion for wellness. What are you doing on that front, for example?

Mark Messier 50:09 

Yeah, so you know, we started to galvanize these boutique fitness chains, all under one roof. And my wife goes to five or six different places to work out. And you think about the amount of time and travel and efficiency that there might be a better way to do that. With the big box retailers struggling, trying to reimagine that space, it seems like to be with my partner, Isaac Chehra. From crown acquisitions, they were had their, you know, their pulse on that real estate COVID-19 hit and we quickly realized that that was going to be delayed. And we pivoted to a more of a digital platform. And I guess, through the COVID-19, when people started working out more at home, there was an opportunity to do something good and give away some home workout trainers that had a great following. And you could log on to Honeycomb fit.com, or honeycomb dot fit on our Instagram and get a free workout from an Elite Trainer, you could get a healthy meal plan, you could get some recommendations and some tips from a sport performance psychologist, you can listen to interviews with interesting people from around the world. I scouring the world for different ways of of the way people live healthy, and healthy around the world, to educate the people here. So it's become this really kind of cool digital platform for health and wellness, which I was always interested in because I played till I was 46. So I was trying to figure out the magic sauce myself, trying to stay relevant in a young man's game. So fitness to me has always been really fun. I love working out I love feeling good. I love the energy that it gives me. And this seems to be a natural segue. So we've just kind of been knocking it out of the park with Honeycomb fit.com, where we call ourselves a home health and wellness. And we want to be an aggregator of all of the best in practice. And in a trusted source of health and wellness where there'll be a product or a trainer that an up and coming to expose their different training methods to people that are already in the industry. And whether your health and wellness fanatic that you've been doing it for 30 years, or you've been on the coach for 20 years, and you want to take a step into changing your lifestyle. We have something for you and honeycomb. And that was the inspiration behind it. Well, and the other thing I have to mention too, just quickly is that Kingsbridge National Ice Center up in the Bronx where we're trying to change the whole narrative around ice sports in New York City and the metropolitan area by building nine sheets of ice in the old Kingsbridge armory, which will be a game changer for the youth hockey program in New York City. And we've been working on that for about eight years, it's been an amazing project. We're working hard towards finalizing and finishing that product. And I've always said with three NHL teams in the metropolitan area, or young kids deserve a better opportunity and more access to a sports and that's what we're trying to deliver.

David Novak 53:12 

Fantastic. I know you were considered at one point as a possible coach for the New York Rangers. And you've talked about coaches in this conversation. What about the possibility of you coaching in the future

Mark Messier 53:25 

mark, you know, what I have always felt that hockey will be a part of my life. It's what I know best, I always felt that I have a lot to offer, because of my experiences. And because of the way I was brought up. And just because you coach doesn't mean you're a coach, there's a huge teaching element to coaching. You know, my dad was an amazing, you know, he was an educator and master's degree in special education, had an incredible way of teaching kids and getting the kids to believe in themselves. And I think that's all part of coaching. I would never say never. But as you know, you got to be surrounded by the right people, you got to have the opportunity with the right people, you have to have someone believe in you that you can do the job for them. And when that day happens, I'd be more than happy to help any organization that wouldn't see the benefit of having to be involved.

David Novak 54:14 

Mark, this has been so much fun. And I want to have a little bit more and do a lightning round of q&a before we wrap. Okay, okay. You know, what are three words that best describe you?

Mark Messier 54:25 

Compassionate, competitive? And I would say humble.

David Novak 54:33 

All right. How many fights did you get into? Do you ever count them?

Mark Messier 54:37 

Too many? And I think it was one of the NHL players set up the fights were fake. You'd see me a lot more than there but so too many I'm thankfully not doing it anymore.

David Novak 54:51 

What's the toughest hit you ever took?

Mark Messier 54:53 

You know what the toughest hits I ever received? I don't remember because it was cold.

David Novak 55:01 

Do you think yes or no? Do you think your Gretzky Edmonton team is the best hockey team ever?

Mark Messier 55:06 

No, no question hard to argue the Montreal great Montreal Canadian teams in the in the in the mid 70s, the Islander teams of the of the 80s you could make an argument for all of them. But the difference being Wayne being on our team, I think he tips a hat to Edmonton.

David Novak 55:24 

You know, the Stanley Cups the most famous trophy and sports with the wildest tradition. As I understand it, every member of the winning team gets it for a few days. What's the wildest thing you ever did with a cup?

Mark Messier 55:35 

You know what, I think the cup has seen it all. I think that was one of the greatest things about the cup is that we're able to share it with the fans. You know, the cup has gone fishing, it's gone swimming, it's gone to the beach, it's gone to hospitals, it's it's gone to schools, it's gone to the White House. The the Stanley Cup has had a great life. It's it's well traveled and it's got a lot of culture behind it.

David Novak 56:00 

How about you? You're gonna give us what you did as well? Well, I

Mark Messier 56:03 

couldn't I couldn't say one one crazy thing, but I'll leave it to the listeners.

David Novak 56:10 

Okay, what's your biggest pet peeve? My

Mark Messier 56:13 

biggest pet peeve. Probably now which is amazing. Because I was not good early, but probably tardiness or lateness. I had to learn some some hard lessons that my time wasn't more valuable than everybody else's. It was a tough lesson to learn as a young guy. But now Now I really believe that. You know, everybody's time was just as valuable. So if you're, if you're supposed to be doing some show up on time,

David Novak 56:39 

what's something about you a few people would know?

Mark Messier 56:42 

Geez, I don't know my placement, pretty much an open book. I'm writing a book. They probably don't know that I'm in the midst of writing a book, which I'm really excited about.

David Novak 56:51 

I thought you might say you own your own plane and you fly it.

Mark Messier 56:54 

Well, I do. I do all my own plane. That is a little four seater single engine, which when I retired, I got my pilot's license. And I always wanted to do it when I was playing. But I never had the chance or the opportunity to when I retired. I did it. And it's been an amazing experience.

David Novak 57:10 

You know, what's your favorite retirement gift?

Mark Messier 57:14 

I would have to say those fishing rods i I've spent a lot of years traveling around fishing. Looking for Blue Marlin. And I enjoy the adventure of it. And when the Rangers gave me the Friday picture and the fishing rods to go with it, it was amazing gift. You know,

David Novak 57:33 

you're a 2.5 golf in index, what's your best round and were

Mark Messier 57:39 

my best round I shot two under at angle Brook right up here in Somers, New York. I've shot par a few times. But I'm always in that kind of 7374 range. I've never practiced much. I've never taken a lesson I played with great players who have given me playing tips. But I'm a self taught left handed hockey player playing golf, right. So things things can be fleeting, at best.

David Novak 58:03 

And Mark, what would be three bits of advice you'd give aspiring leaders,

Mark Messier 58:07 

you know, dig into your people. On a personal level, I think the power is with the people, I think the power is in the players, I think you'd need to establish those relationships, I think you need to be tolerant, you have to establish the trust between you and the players, you have to earn the right to lead them. And the only way you can do that is to establish those interpersonal relationships that are not easy and in a professional world, whether in business or in sport, because of the time required, but it is investment that is will sustain you as a leader.

David Novak 58:41 

You know, I know you're passionate about giving back can you tell us how you're going about as a leader and and what you're doing with Mark Messier foundation?

Mark Messier 58:48 

Well, you know, when I came to New York, I realized that I was getting pulled in a lot of different directions to help out and I think there's over 16,000 501 C threes registered in New York State or New York Metropolitan alone. It would be impossible to help everybody although I tried and I got myself aligned with the tomorrow's Children Fund very early on, which is a group of people had kids with terminally ill cancer was spent basically their lives in hotel hallways, while the kids were being treated. So they Hackensack university hospital they built a wing for the children and of course, an eye. They built a Skyway between the women's Pavilion and the Children's pavilion that I was kind of more of a an area there that you could walk between the two pavilions but then I set up a place for the kids to go play and families to visit and with all my trophies and videos and games and and whatnot, and so I worked with them for years and the Garden of Dreams and you know, make a wish foundation until ultimately I realized that by starting my own foundation. I had the ability to help a lot of different kids and so my foundation is really geared toward providing access and opportunity to kids that don't don't necessarily have the resources or the parents in position to help them. And the big part of the Kingsbridge armory is that is given back to that community, and giving kids free equipment, free coaching, and free ice time, when we finally get built, which will be a game changer for New York.

David Novak 1:00:17 

That's great. And Mark, just two last questions here. How important do you think it is for a leader to have a purpose in their life? And how would you define yours today?

Mark Messier 1:00:27 

Well, it's interesting, you know, when I read Andre Agassi's book and growing up playing tennis, and he wasn't sure about tennis, and didn't necessarily like tennis, and it was hard and long days, and he had rather be doing something else. And it was only until he really found his own purpose that He allowed himself to love the game of tennis, which obviously enabled him to start his own foundation and really make an impact. So I think, you know, having a purpose, you know, both professionally and personally is, is absolutely critical. And I love the term servanthood leadership, it means so much. But you know, we're here to help others, we're here to serve others, we can use our platforms to help others. And if you create a purpose like Andre did, I think it was life changing for him. And I know, for myself personally, being able to give back in those areas that I have, since I came to New York, and even starting at the Alberta Lung Association and debits and it's been it's been life changing for me.

David Novak 1:01:24 

Last question here. How much is as the support you've received from your family influenced your your success?

Mark Messier 1:01:30 

Well, I think I'm, you know, I'm truly blessed to have had a family that I did, I think all super smart folks. Driven. You know, I think we had a good enough relationship that they would tell me what I needed to hear, you know, I had a father who played hockey who understood a hockey I had a mom who, you know, spent her whole, early adult life to take in my brothers and sisters to our events and, and putting in the time so we could excel. So you when you look back at it, you know, I was lucky, not everybody has that. And I think that is something I never can be taken for granted. And for the kids that don't have that, how can we, you know, support them in those ways. Because I think it's absolutely critical to have that support system, whether from your own family or somebody growing up to be a good role model. And to give them the opportunity to chase a passion that they have

David Novak 1:02:26 

a mark, there's no question. You're an incredible role model, an incredible leader. And thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. And all you're doing to give back to those that aren't as fortunate as you.

Mark Messier 1:02:37 

Well, I certainly appreciate that. And the work is only started.

David Novak 1:02:50 

Well, I think you'll agree, that's one powerful story about one great leader. You know, it's obvious that Mark cares deeply about his teammates, and really making a difference, not only with his team, but in his community and for everybody that he has the privilege to be around. And it's really amazing how he always has his finger on the pulse of his team, how he knows what makes each member of a team tick, and how to motivate them and how to help them become the best that they can be. And that what he calls spidey sense, will that spidey sense, develop because he always took the time to get to know his teammates. Think about it. He really earned his role as a leader in their life. This week is a part of your weekly personal development plan. Let's keep it simple. Just invite a teammate to coffee or lunch, no agenda, no one on one meeting, just a casual but intentional time to connect and hear what's going on in their life. You know, it can be so easy to overlook this kind of soft stuff in our busy calendars where we're trying to drive hard results. But great leaders stay tuned into their teams by building relationships, because they know just like the moose, just like the captain that those bonds can make or break a team. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders stay tuned in to their people. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be