I like to show people how simple things are. I'm kind of a simpleton. I'm not complicated and I just like to cut through all the crap. How do some leaders seem to tackle big challenges and make it look effortless? Well, the secret is in today's episode. Welcome to How Leaders Lead. I'm David Novak and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you can be. My guest today is world renowned entrepreneur and cosmetics titan Bobby Brown. Her latest venture, Jones Road Beauty, is growing like crazy and is closing in on a $1 billion valuation and that's in about five years. People love how she takes the complicated world of beauty and cosmetics and then makes it simple. And that simplicity shines through in how she leads to. I'm telling you, her ability to drill down and get to the heart of an issue is absolutely remarkable and it's the skill every leader needs to develop. Leaders waste all kinds of time because they over complicate things. But when you learn to simplify, you can save yourself time and energy and ultimately find better solutions. So see how it's done in this conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Bobby Brown. You know, Bobby, this podcast is obviously all about leadership, but I got to ask you, what was the biggest learning you had in 2024? Let's see. You know, the biggest learning I have had is that I still have so much to learn , right? Like a lot of people kind of get to a point in their careers and they think, well, I've done it all. I know everything. What do I have? No, I have a lot to learn and I think I've really evolved a lot since starting Jones Road. Now that's fantastic. We'll dig into that. And you know, every year I start out the year, I do what I call my three by five exercise, where I write down what I am today and then that's on one side of the card. On the other side is how can I get even better, you know, as a leader. What do you think you need to do to get even better as a leader as you think about 2025? Honestly, for me, it's calm down. You know, I get, I get, I, you know, I care about every little detail and sometimes I get frustrated by people that aren't doing exactly what I have in my head and I have to kind of calm myself down and realize that my job is to tell them what I want and teach them how to do it, especially when you have a young team. As I do. And as I understand it, when you think about the Jones Road beauty, there was literally a countdown for you being able to start that business. Talk more about that. When my husband and I sold Bobby Brown Cosmetics to Estee Lauder, there was one thing left to decide and that was would I sign a 25 year non-compete? And when you're 34 years old, the thought of working in 25 years was daunting. I said, I'm never going to want to work when I'm 60. And I left Bobby Brown Cosmetics when I was 59.8. And I had four and a half years left on a non-compete that I had to wait until I went back into the beauty industry, the, my industry that I love. So I launched the day my non-compete was up. That very day. That very day. Actually, it's, the non-compete was up on a Saturday. I did let them talk me into waiting till Monday morning because no one thought Saturday or Sunday was a good day to launch. And by the way, it was a week before the presidential election in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of all this social unrest, and nothing was going to stop me. I just wanted to get it done. Where did you get that relentless drive to make things happen? I don't know. I really don't know whether it's from my papa Sam that I watched him, you know, with his car dealership or just realizing I'm not very patient, David. That's one thing that I need to work on also is patience, which I keep trying. I must be better than I used to be. But I just, it made it like when I have something in my head, it made total sense to me. I have my freedom. What was I going to wait until January? People said, just wait till next year. Well, January, we had this thing known as January 6th. So that wouldn't have been a good time either. So you know what? The best time is do it now. Well, here you are now. You've got another hit on your hands. Tell me about the Jones Road brand itself and your core focus. What is the real reason for being for this brand? Well, I really thought it was going to be this small indie brand that some people would like because there's a lot of women that just struggle with makeup and they just want to look better, but they still want to look like themselves. They want to look natural. And it's a brand that is a clean brand. It's without chemicals. And it's without heavy marketed, I hate to say the word bullshit, but it's without all of that. It's just products that when you put them on, they make you look better. They make you look like you. There's definitely a Jones Road look. If you are someone that likes contour and overmated up, you 're not going to like Jones Road. So I want to make that clear. But I had a purpose by doing this because I wanted to teach women of all ages, all ages, 20s up until 100, that you could look better just by doing a few little things. And Jones Road has, I guess, four and a half years now. Four and a half years. Yeah. I had to point time flies. I remember talking about doing this, Frad, and here we are. I have to be honest, when I heard Jones Road, I didn't immediately think of it being a cosmetic brand. How did you land on that name? It's a really interesting story because I needed to have a name by a certain day in order to have the creative team start doing the logos. And that's the thing that I love is all the visual creative things. And we couldn't either get a name. It wasn't available. Or we couldn't agree on a name, me, my husband, the kids, whoever was in my office. And we're driving to the Hamptons. My husband and I, well, my husband drives. He doesn't like me being in my device, which is hard for me because I'm always in my device. So I was on Waze and Google Maps because he didn't want to be late. And I looked down. We were somewhere in West Hampton. Look down on the, we're driving to Sag Harbor. And I looked and I saw on Waze, Jones Road. It just struck me. I said, Jones Road, it sounded to me like a bes poke UK British brand that someone said to me, "Oh, Bobby, would you please take this old brand and make it fabulous again?" And I love the UK. And I couldn't use Brown. So Jones. And it was available. So that was a Friday and Monday we owned Jones Road. I love that story. And, you know, Bobby, there's no question you're like the cosmetic queen and you've revolutionized the whole beauty industry and you're doing it again now and you create these brilliant products. How often do you really go to the customer for input or just how much of what you do is just your base gut instinct? It's really a combination. What's so amazing now. We used to , in the old, I always call it, you know, in the olden days, we would go to, you know, all these companies and do all these surveys. And, you know, I just, I didn't care. I was like, who are these people that are telling us what they like and don't like? But now I just go to my Instagram , I go to my sub stack, I go wherever and I just ask questions. So I learn a lot from my people because most of the people that follow me are, they're not haters, they're lovers. So we also have a dedicated Facebook group called the Rodeys, you know, Jones Road, the Rodeys. Last count, there was 66,000 Rodeys, mostly women. And they have these communities. And if I ever ask a question, I mean, I get infused with information, I need one of the young kids on the product development team to go in and just make a list of all the requests because I get overwhelmed just looking at them. And I know what colors they want. I know what's working. I know it's not working. And it's instant information. And guess what? It costs zero. What was the biggest insight that you, you would not have expected that you got from the social media input? Well, I think a lot of people wanted products that the old company discontinued, you know, or colors, you know, things that I created when I was there. And in the six years, I've been gone, you know, they I don't, it has nothing to do with me. They get rid of things, you know, things I would have said, don't get rid of, don't be crazy. But they did. So people are like, we need that in the Jones Road line. So I get a lot of information that way. So you get back into basically the startup phase again for a new company. And you know, what was the biggest leadership challenge you faced going back to the beginning and building a brand from the roots? Well, certainly I didn't do it alone. You know, besides my husband and we have two board members, you know, really supportive, great, you know, people I can't live without. We had a couple different people on leadership and they really weren't the right people. And again, they were really young. I don't even think anyone was 30 at the time. And it was not the easiest and now they're all gone. And the probably the most interesting thing is who has like, you know, like sped up in our organization is a boy named Cody, a guy named Cody that came in to help us with digital marketing. He just transformed our business. We quadru pled when he joined. He started then eventually became the head of marketing, the CMO. And now he is the CEO. And what's so bizarre about this, David, he's 32 years old. He's my son. He's my second child. And so talk about interesting. This, you know, this was, this kid was on the golf team . He was a strength conditioning coach. He never was interested in makeup ever, ever, ever. And he 's just this incredible leader. I don't know where he learned it. He it's mind blowing. He is all three of my kids are pretty self taught on so many things. But he is now the CEO. I am the founder and CCO. So do I report to him or does he report to me? It's unclear. Well, I'm not going to finish it to make a guess. So, you know, not many people get asked this question, but with Bobby Brown cosmetics, you built an over billion dollar brand. And now you've got Jones Road, which is already has a billion dollar valuation, as I understand it . What's it going to take for you to make Jones Road beauty a billion dollar brand in terms of revenue? I don't know. I mean, I know we finished off last year. I don't know if you're and it's it's been printed at a hundred and fifty four million in four years. And you know, we don't have investors. We have like a crazy ridiculous, even, which I still don't even really understand where an even it is. But I hear it's crazy and ridiculous. And we don't, you know, we're pretty scrappy still. We do things, you know, we don't like to waste time or money. So we just have to keep doing what we're doing and just make sure that we're not, you know, don't become cocky and bloated because, you know, it's been it's been like four pretty quick, you know, fast growing years. It's not going to last forever . You know, we we doubled. We this it's not going to keep happening. Like I know that. So this year, this year, which will be our fifth year is going to be more of a challenge. I know it, even though we have like phenomenal products, I don't know how big you go. By the way, we're direct to consumer except right now we have eight freestanding stores. We 're in one department store. So we don't have a plan to go into retail. How do you balance dreaming and doing? Because you're a dreamer. I mean, right now you're kind of laying back a little bit, saying, oh, it's not going to last forever. But you have big dreams. And you also are into the details. How do you how do you think about dreaming and doing? Yeah, I don't have big dreams for this brand. I'm not like, Oh, I hope I sell it. I hope I sell it. I sold the first brand and it was great for a while until it wasn't. And then it was God awful. And I don't want to do that again. Like, I don't want to go if someone comes to me and says, you know, love love to buy you, you know, and you know, you could just go on a vacation. I'd be like, no, I love doing what I'm doing. So you know, I can't imagine me not doing this. By the way, I'm 67 years old. And to me, that's young. I don't look at myself as old. I'm young. You know, I don't know what I want to do when I'm 80. I know I want to be able to, you know, do yoga and, you know, pick pick things up off the ground. But I don't know what I want, you know, what kind of work I'll be doing. I definitely won't be playing cards. You and me both. Fairly young and hard in terms of how we look at things , you know, and I want to talk more about what you're doing at Jones Road. But I want to take you back a little bit. I think you mentioned Papa Sam or I've heard you call him Cadillac Sam before or whatever, you know, but tell us a story from him that taught you a key leadership lesson. I don't know if it's urban myth or my aunt told me or this actually happened, but it's one of my favorite stories that Papa Sam was once in his car dealership. And some guy came in with this big overcoat. The guy looked like he had been sleeping on the street. He had two garbage bags with him, you know, like literally garbage bags. And none of the men, you know, Papa was the boss. None of the men would leave their offices. And Papa went up to the guy and he called everyone Doc. You know, first of all, Papa was five, two. He was a little teeny guy or five. I don't even know if he was five, four. And he's like, Hey, Doc, can I help you? And the guy said , yeah, I want to buy a car. Papa said, all right, let me show you around. The guy bought two cars that day. The bags were full of cash. And so what does that teach me? It teaches me that you just don't know who you're dealing with by what people look like, you know, I don't know where the guy got his money. I don't know where he lived, but he bought two cars. So you learned a lot from Papa Sam , you know, and now you have your own kids. What do you think's the biggest thing that your kids have picked up watching you? I mean, I think that anything is possible and that there's no limits. You know, I was definitely not the kid in high school that people said, she's going places. Absolutely not. You know, my parents even, you know, said we're not going to punish her or push her when she doesn't get good grades. Because she probably will never really be anything. You know, maybe she'll be a teacher, which to me, that would have been a wonderful thing. And I am a teacher, I guess, but I never really thought that I had the ability to do what I'm doing, which is probably why I'm so relentless now. I mean, I have a lot to prove not to anyone, but to myself. So you say you're a teacher, you've mentioned that a couple of times, you know, what is it that has really drawn you to seeing yourself as a teacher? Because I have this naive ability. I'm very naive. I'm not afraid that something's not going to work out because I don't believe there's such a thing. But I also have figured out like easy ways to do things, easy ways to put on eyeshadow, easy ways to make myself not look tired, easy ways to do an enormous amount in the amount of time that it would take, you know, like half of the time that it would take someone else. And so I like to show people how simple things are. I'm kind of a simpleton. I'm not complicated. And I just like to cut through all the crap. I 'm like, guys, let me just show you this is better. So I've written 10 books so far. I don't know how to type, okay? And the first couple books were torturous for me because I'd work with these editors and writers and they would say, okay, you've got to write, you know, the synopsis, you've got to write this, you've got to write this. And like it drove me nutty. Finally, I realized if I could just go into a studio with models and my team and let's, and an idea and let's just do some photography, I will take the pictures and put them in chapters. And then I will write to the photos. And it just made my life so much easier. And so I found a writer that understood that. And she was there with me. Hey, everyone. It's Kula. We'll get back to the interview in just a second before we do though. Have a question for you. Have you downloaded the How Leaders Lead app on your iPhone? If you haven't, take 20 seconds right now, go to the App Store, search for How Leaders Lead, and download the How Leaders Lead app. In the app, every day, you'll get a two-minute video that'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our podcast to inspire you and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work day. So go to the App Store, start How Leaders Lead, download the How Leaders Lead app and start your day every day with two minutes of leadership wisdom. It'll take 20 seconds. Go to the App Store, download the app, and you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight from How Leaders Lead. For those of you who don't know your story, getting back to this notion of you figuring things out, when did you have that seminal moment, Bobby, where you knew you wanted to work out in the makeup world? Well, I didn't know what I wanted to do in makeup, but I knew that I wanted... I knew I had to go to college. My parents did not give me a choice. I had to graduate. And I knew that I was passionate about makeup. I didn't like wearing a lot of it. I just loved playing with it and I just, you know, made me look pretty and feel pretty. And my mother helped me find... My mother and my father helped me find a college that allowed me to study makeup, which was Emerson College in Boston. They didn't have a makeup degree. They'd let me create, want to make my own up. Now it's probably called an entrepreneurship, but back then it was called an interdisciplinary major. I still don't know what interdisciplinary means. And so I just kind of realized that I could figure things out because I'm not your traditional learner. I'm not your traditional anything. I can't really cook. I can't follow a recipe, but I could give a really good dinner party and I can make everything look beautiful and kind of hack things to make them mine. And so that's what I do. That's great. You know, and we have so many leaders listening to this podcast that, you know, are trying to build their businesses. And just for illustrative purposes, you know, when you think back at what it took for you to build Bobbi Brown cosmetics, how would you describe the top two or three strategic decisions you made that really in your mind put that brand on the map? What did you do? Well, certainly it's the team. And by the way, you know, having the team, having people that you can say anything to you could say, I hate that. You could say I'm frustrated. You could say, oh my God, if we only could do this, it'd be so cool for them to understand. So having your team is number one. And by the way, having the team be able to come into me with a closed door and say, you know, my husband and I are splitting up. I'm not myself. Please forgive me. My kids are this. My like, to me, that's really important. And that just does not have a place in corporate America, but I always made sure it happened. So that was something that I think really helped, you know, things happen. And also there's so many different pieces of building this, you know, billion dollar business over 22 years I stayed. And there's shifts and there's changes and some things work and some things don't work. And you have to know when they're not working and just kind of push yourself back and think and then have people, your posse around you to say, all right, what could we do? What should we do now? You know, and that was important. Yeah, those are great, great insights. And you did step away in 2016 from Bobbi Brown cosmetics. And you mentioned the frustration you had in terms of just, you know, working there, you know, what advice can you give to people who get in this environment where, you know, you just frustrated that things aren't going the way you think they should go. I mean, it's easy when you're at the top to say, okay, I'm getting out of here. I gave up, but you know, when you're moving up and you see how things are, what coaching could you give someone out? What teaching could you provide us? Well, you have to, you know, you never know when it's time to get out. You just don't. I, you know, there's no, there's no magic, anything. I stayed probably a couple years longer than I should have. And it really took my 80 something year old aunt who's just turned 94 to say, Bobbi, I've been hearing you complain for the last couple years. You're not going to fix this. You're just, you're not going to fix this. And finally, I said, you know, and Dallas, you're right. I'm not going to fix it. And I realized that like, no, no, I used to go into work with like a mental role of tape and think, okay, I could tape things up and fix them temporarily until we do this. And finally, I realized, you know what? It's not going to happen. You know, and I realized there was a lot of people that were hired without my interviewing them. And they were just not the right people. And the decisions were being made were not the right decisions. And, you know, thank goodness that I went through the misery I did. So there's a reason everybody for why, you know, when you're miserable, that's when you have to just say, okay, now what? You know, and it's always a financial thing. Like, I don't want to tell people, just leave, just quit. No, you've got to feel secure that you could still pay your rent and mortgage and know when the time is right. You know, what's a key learning from building Bobby Brown that you know you've taken as you're building this Jones Road business? I mean, it's so funny because, you know, with all the years, you know, difference, it's the same theories, but it's how people are absorbing information now and how we just do things differently now. And it's so much more modern and it 's so much more of the time. So, you know, key learnings are making sure that you put only the best product out there. I mean, there's just, you just have to. And, and you know what? I just canceled a launch three days before we were going to launch because I realized, and it was not an easy decision because I realized it was a product that needed a few more months to fix a color for certain skin tone. So, I just had a call my son and said, we can't do this. And now we've had a move and shift, but it never would happen in like a big giant company that, you know, the retail numbers are waiting for you and all the, you know, department stores and magazines like, you know, but it's different now. We pulled it and we'll bring it back when it's right. You've told me before that you love doing things that you don't know how to do. I mean, that's, that's a unique characteristic. What 's the last new thing you got yourself into? And what's the biggest, biggest thing it taught you? Well, the last project I did, I, you know, my husband and I have a hotel in Montclair called the George. And I met this really nice woman that was having breakfast. I asked her what she did, and she told me she was the CMO of William Sonoma. So first they asked me to join on the board, which I, I said, there's no way I'm going to sit there and, you know, on a board four times a year. And I know I'm not going to happen. And then she asked if I wanted to do a collaboration of, you know, to create these products for William Sonoma home. And so I did it. And, you know, we designed these products. It was so interesting, so fun. I don't know anything except I made things I really like. And now I'm waiting to see how well they did, hopefully, so we could do more products. And speaking of new things, I understand you're a really big deal on TikTok, you know, talk a bit more about how you've been using social media to grow the brand. You 've talked a little bit about it. Say more. Well, when we launched, it was really Instagram. You know, I opened up a well curated Instagram the morning that we launched. I used my personal one to drive people to the Jones Road one. And, you know, there wasn't TikTok then. And then TikTok became a thing. And, you know, it was actually my son that said, Mom, and he literally held a phone up in my face. Go ahead, Mom. What do you want to say? And I was like, without thinking, I said, Hey, guys, it's Bobby here. I'm new to TikTok. So please help me. Tell me what you want to see for me. What videos, what you want me to do. And I really appreciate it. And I got bombarded with people asking questions and saying, Oh my God, thank God you're here. Because I had been, you know, a little quiet for the few years earlier. And a lot of women of, you know, 40s, 50s and 60s were on TikTok. As, you know, and they needed someone to teach them how to not look tired or how to keep their eye mate, whatever it was. And we ended up really like blowing up the business. And it was great. We ran out of products. I went back on TikTok and said, see what you guys did. Now you got to wait till we make them again. And you know, TikTok is not as working as it did a couple years ago. You know, we're still on it. And I, you know, I've done a bunch of things that have gone viral. But now the newest thing is substack. Do you know about substack? I have not for taking that. Yeah, substack, honestly, if it could be an interesting thing, even to have one of your guys open you up a substack, because it's just, it's like really like newsletters. And it's information. And there's really dedicated audience on that. So more and more, we're leaning into subst ack and, and YouTube. So whatever is there, you know, we lean into it until it doesn't work anymore. I think you just gave me a great idea. I think I'd go on TikTok and say, Hey guys, you know, what do you want to know about leadership and, you know, fire away? That's a good idea. But that's honestly how it works. And then you know, you might get two people answering you, you might get 200 people, you might get, you know, more than that, you don't know. And you know, and it's, I think it's a great way to connect with people. And you, and the people are all over the world. You know, they're in India, they're in Thailand. It's really interesting. You know, there's this sort of law in, in, with brands that, you know, almost, it's the 20, 80 rule 20% of the users count for 80% of your, your volume. How do you think about that in your business serving your super core or heavy user base? Is that something that you , you really, think about or do you just let it happen? Well, I, I let it happen. If my son was here, he'd have an answer. He thinks about it. And you know, I know that, you know, we, we launched TV ads a year ago. And ever since, honestly, ever between the social media and the TV ads, you know, we're all over cable. I can't go anywhere without someone stopping me . So it's, it's really done, you know, amazing awareness. And, but you know what, there's still plenty of people that still think I'm with Bobby Brown cosmetics. Like there are people out there that have never heard of Jones Road. So to me, new customers are the biggest opportunity. We have incredible loyal customers that buy and buy and buy because they love it. They don't need any more than they have, you know, replenishment, you know, a couple times a year. But so I'm all about new customers. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. When you have a new business, you want to maximize the trial. Once you get the trial, then you can look at your user base . And that's really kind of what you're doing here. You know, and you, you know, back to teaching one more time here, you know, you've always been one to teach more than sell. You say you teach more than sell. What do you mean by that? Mean, I don't want to be known as the person that's hawking my products. I want to, I want, and I, you know, I was on the Today Show for 14 years. So, and I, and I took that very serious. I was the beauty editor of the Today Show. I was, I never mentioned my products, never mentioned my brand, but I taught women, you know, whatever topic it was. Look how easy this is. If you find a foundation that matches your skin, and this is what you look for. And, you know, I had two to four minutes to tell them this. And then it just so happened. Everybody ran to the counters. Bobby on the Today Show talked about a yellow base foundation. And my team at, you know, at the store knew what that meant. And, and so that was incredible. So I don't want to be the one that says, and three easy payments on QVC. Even when I was on QVC, which had a giant audience, I was the teacher. And that's just who I am. Something that I've come to know and appreciate about you is that one of your great gifts is to being able to look at something and see how it could be better. Tell me a story about how you're doing that right now. Well, it's, it's actually a nice, you know, it's a positive thing, but it's also a curse. Because I can't walk into any place without my mind saying, oh, I could do this better. You know, whether it's a hotel room or, you know, my living room. You know, I think if I just did this, it would be better. So it, you know, I'd like to be a little more Zen truthfully. And I did buy a magazine that teaches meditation, but I haven't read it yet. And that's the true story. But, you know, normally I look at these things and I'm like, hmm, what if the cap would do this and then you wouldn't be looking for it when it's open? What if it was something that you just squeeze? So I'm always kind of thinking how to do it better. Even when my team puts things in a box to send to a, an influencer or a celebrity, noise like, can you send me a picture? And I'm like, all right, guys, look, if you just put more this and do this, I'm like, oh my God, you're so right, it looks better. I'm not a micromanager, but I guess I am. But you're extremely prolific. You know, you talked about the number of books that you've written and you've created countless products. How do you foster your own creativity? Gosh, how do I calm it down as the problem? You know, I mean, I just, I don't have to try. I'm really curious. I'm incredibly visual. And I, you know, I get a lot of inspiration on social media. I do. I literally, I, you know, I search, I Google , you know, I don't even Google anymore. I just, I just search on social media because I love seeing pictures, whether it's a hotel I'm interested in visiting, whether it's a restaurant. I like to see everything and that helps me, you know, form an opinion. And I'm always like passing the things I find on Instagram to like the team, my team say, Oh my God, it'd be so cool if we did this. Oh, we love that. And so I communicate through visuals. How do you bring out the creativity and others? You know, a lot of people don't see themselves as creative, but when they get the right kind of prodding, they become creative. You know, how do you bring it out of people? Well, I recently just said to the girl that is doing our packaging that is really, you know, she's been showing me a lot of different packaging from the packaging industry. And I'm like, go to an art store, go to a gourmet food store. You know, I asked her, she ever heard a dean in Deluca's. I used to get a lot of ideas going to that store and just look at their packaging, look at the way they're doing things different and what could be brought in. And you know, at Jones Road, we don't make packaging. We use stock because we like to keep the cost down to our customers. So we don't, you know, spend a lot of money on it, but you've got to be creative. And you know what, you've got to look outside of your industry, sometimes to bring creativity in. You're an elite business mind. I mean, there's no question about it because you 've built great businesses and you know, you're obviously got the creativity. Do you push yourself to get even better on the business side or do you delegate that? Well, it depends what it is. I mean, I'm really good with things I'm interested in. But if I'm not interested in it, you know, I'm not so good at it. So, you know, I would really like to find an amazing business coach for some of my top tier employees that, you know, our creative director is literally 27 years old. I don't even know she's that old yet, but she's phenomenal, but she's got a whole team she has to lead. So, you know, it's, it's, we don't have, you know, the wherewithal or the time to do that right now. But it's definitely on my, on my list because I do think people have things that they, you know, if they're taught, they'll learn. You were in this corporate environment with Estolata and you've stayed with that company building the Bobby Brown brand for, you know, 22 years or so. In that environment, you know, when you got everything coming at you and, you know, different, you're different, you know, how did you stay true to yourself? Was it easy for you to do? Yes, it was easy for me because I can't be something I'm not. It just doesn't fit. I mean, I tried that early on in my career, you know, to be the cool person at the fashion shoot, to be the corporate person, to be, I just, it didn't fit. It didn't feel good. So, I always, you know, I only know how to be myself. I'm, I only, I'm not afraid to ask to say, I don't know what you're talking about, you know, because people talk like they're the smartest people in the universe. And sometimes I have no idea what they're saying. But when they explain it to me, I'm like, ah, I understand what you're saying is this. And often that, you know , like the big guys would laugh at me because it was so, oh, so sweet that she just, you know, translated. I'm like, yeah, but at least that's how I understand. And that's how I'm going to solve, that's how I'm going to solve this problem that all you guys are doing is talking about it . I'm going to find a solution for it. Yes, I know we're, we're, we're down $3 million, but by my C FO at the time, we're still one of my closest friends, explaining to me that, that some of our products do a million dollars apiece. And the new products, you know, have cannibalized everything else. I'm like, well, why don't I just come up with two new colors of Bronzer's? That'll bring you a couple million dollars. And he's like, okay, we did it. And we made the year because of it. But, but he, he took the time to explain to me what was happening instead of someone, you know, some pompous person being, you know, you don't know what I'm talking about. You know, you've talked about the ability to simplify, bring things back to their core essence. And you know, you take these things that could be seemingly complex and you kind of make them simple for people. How do you coach people on, on how to simplify things? How do you personally break things down to the, the bare essence? Well, first of all, I am not on Slack, which my entire team is on Slack. If I want to know something, I pick up the phone and I call and I ask a question. I don't even like the emails that go back and forth. And when there's, you know, a big email chain, I just pick up the phone and call, you know, someone to kind of discuss it. And I just don't want to be on a text. So I, I just look at things and I'm like, okay, what is the real issue here? What are our options? How can we get this done? What makes the most sense? I don't know if this is like a quality I have because I'm from Chicago, you know, like the Midwest is very, you know, I know it's not the center of our country, but it's, you know, it's a very simple place to be from. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bobby Brown in just a moment. Now talking to Bobby, I'm reminded of another creative outside the box thinker. And that's Jesse Cole, the guy behind the sensational Savannah bananas baseball team. I love the way he and his team find great ideas and they go after them with a zeal like I've never seen. We believe attention beats marketing 1000% of time. We don't have a marketing plan, David. We have an attention plan. So we get together as our staff every Monday, today in a little bit, we'll have our OTT meeting, which is over the top ideas and outrageous ideas we can do with the field to create attention and create more fans. And so that is our entire plan that we think about what are we doing that's going to be unique and different. And as you know, David, obviously with all the different brands you had with young brands and Taco Bell, especially you thought dramatically different with everything. It was what will this product do to create some attention unique and get people talking. And we're so obsessed with that. We learned that from PT Barnum, Walt Disney, get people talking. So that 's part of the model that we think about. And you mentioned dance, the New York Times wrote a great article on that. You know, it started with a test, players dancing, could our players dance every game? Then could we have a break dancing coach? Then could we have a banana, nana's senior citizen dance team? And now we have a dancing umpire when he strikes out someone, he does a full fledged dance while he's striking out a guy. So it's keep taking it to the next level, which then creates more attention. Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Jesse, episode 96 here on How Leaders Lead. You know, it's very hard to walk away from something that you built, like Bobby Brown. I mean, you built that brand. And now here you are at Jones Road. You know, so when you when you think about it, what's been the best part of that experience for you? Which the first or the second part of the whole thing? No, the best part of walking away and moving to Jones Road. Well, the best part is success as a bitch. You know, success, it's like, okay, I did this. And you know, I didn't do it alone, but I didn't do it with all the, you know, people that thought they were responsible for the success, you know, the first time. So I did it my way. And guess what? It worked better. And you know, it just makes me feel good that I'm not a one hit wonder. You know, David, I could have been easily. I could have been a one hit wonder, and that would have been an okay thing too. But I'm, you know, I'm not. Do you wake up with that kind of anxiety? Does it? When you go to bed at night, do you think about, oh, what if I'm a one hit wonder? None of that, that didn't drive you. So what is it that drove you then? It wasn't, it wasn't fear then, right? No, it was, it was curiosity, excitement. It's the, it's the naive, like, thoughts that are, wow, I bet this will work. I think people will like this. Why don't I, I could do it this way. This makes such sense. And it's so simple, you know, like, you just, you have an idea, you tell someone, they make it, you work on it for a while, and then you're like, okay, what are we going to put it in? How are we going to tell people about it? Like all those, they're all problem solving things. And how do we do it in a new way? Like, like, I'll never forget during the pandemic, we launch face pencils, you know, these little pencils that cover spots, dark circles. And you know, they put them in a box, and I always have to approve how it looks. And I said, this looks really boring. So I said, all right, take them out of the outside box, just have the pencils, and put them, you know, put the whole range together, and go to, go to the, the, go to the store and get me those stasher bags, which are these clear, you know, rubber, plastic bags, put them in there. So when the makeup artists or influencers get them, they open it up and they just, you could see all the colors, it looks good. It won't break because the bags are cushiony. And they're going to put it right in their makeup bag, which they did. And it was a huge success, because we did it not the way other people do it. We did it in this, like, yeah, that makes total sense. And it didn't cost a lot of money, but it was a better visual impact. And it was just more practical. That's great. You know, Bobby, this is, I do it would be funny that always says , catch it up with you. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. What three words best describe you? Quick, nice, and I think funny. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Let's see. That's between someone really gorgeous and really smart and really tall. All right. I think I'll be a basketball player. I'll be an athlete. What's your biggest pet peeve? When people don't tell the truth, I don't like when people are afraid to tell you the truth. Who would play you in a movie? Well, would it be Demi Moore? People always said, I kind of look like Demi Moore. Would it have been a young Ali McGraw? And most people my age have done too much cosmetic surgery, so I don't know. I'm curious, you know, what do you give out to trick or treaters that come to your house? Well, for decades, I gave out makeup. Gave out makeup. My husband gave big candy bars. I gave out makeup. At one time, we had to get like 2,200 or 2,400 pieces of makeup. But we moved and when people come to the door, we're like, no, Bobby doesn't live here anymore. So we had to stop. You've had so many celebrities that have used your products over the year, which have really wowed you. I mean, you know, Michelle Obama, always amazing. I mean, there's been so many that have wowed me. I just, it's amazing when you meet these people that are larger than anything and they're just the nicest people in the world. What was one of your last, I can't believe it's happening to me moments. I and my family got invited to the Paul McCartney concert in London and to sit in the VIP seats with Mrs. McCartney's friends and family. They were people that had, you know, one name like Ringo and Ron Woods and it was really kind of, you know, and the backstage party afterwards. That was a giant pinch me moment. Oh, yeah. What's the one thing you do just for you? Exercise. I am a, I love, love, love to push myself into exercise or I love to decide to not exercise and just chill out in the morning. Your most prized possession. My three children. If I turn the radio on, oh, there you go. If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear? You will hear music that you won't believe would be on my on my Spotify. I'm a hip hop lover. I just love hip hop music. What's something about you? Few people would know. I don't know with Instagram. Everyone knows everything. I danced on stage with FlowRida and I danced on stage with Salt and Pepper. I was, I was in a motorcade once with, you know, secretary of defense, you know, Mr. Panetta. So with a lot of weird moments. What's one of your daily rituals that you never miss? Double espresso and a cap of half and half after a giant glass of water or green juice. You're so healthy. That's so great. All right. That's the end of the lightning round. Just a few more questions. I'll let you go. Yeah. We talked about all these phenomenal hits that you've had. You know, so many successes is, is, what was the biggest thing that didn't go right and when you look back and what'd you learn from it? Well, I am so happy that this didn't work because it's nice to be able to tell people that, you know, not everything I touch works. I started a wellness brand that was selling vitamins and powders right when I left Bobbi Brown cosmetics and we launched it at Walmart, put a little team together and it was really promising and exciting and it did not work. Did not work and I walked away from it to do, you know, when I was able to launch Jones Road. The big learning was don't just ask your assistants and your friends to help you with the business. Hire someone that knows what they're doing. All right. Your mother and three, what's the best practice you'd share about leading at home? Let your husband think he's leading. Love it. I've heard you say your lifestyle leads your work style. What do you mean by that? It means they work together. You know, I luckily, I don't have to commute anymore and, you know, I just think it's really important to bring your best self to work and when you are working, you know, make sure you drink enough water. So your brain's working, make sure you take enough breaks and fuel your body with, you know, a nice healthy, you know, lunch because if you're going to eat, you know, two pieces of pizza and a diet coke, you're going to literally sink into the chair. So the better you take care of yourself, the more energy you'll have for your life and your work. And so here you are now, you're 67 years young. You don't even think about your age. You're much, much younger in terms of how you approach everything. So I'm curious, what do you see now, especially after being such a serial entrepreneur, what do you see now as your unfinished business? Well, I want to continue to build muscle in my body. Like, I don't think I've reached where I'm going to end up. And this year, I'm very proud. I gained three to four pounds of muscle, lost one, one pound of body fat. So, you know, that's when I don't have a lot of weight to lose. So that was a I had to work really hard with the weights. And I'm really proud that I can get up off the floor without holding on to my hand. So that's something that I'm, I'm working on. You know, I'm also working on how do we as a company get better without, you know, hiring a bloated organization? All makes sense. You know, last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Breathe, breathe, be kind, and just realize people learn from example. And how how the words come out of your mouth actually matter. And, you know, create an environment where people are comfortable to come in and close the door and tell you a struggle they're having. You know, I think that's important. Well, Bobby, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation. And I was really looking forward to it because when you have the opportunity to talk to an iconic person, you know, someone who has really done things in their life and really changed the way how industries tick. It's really exciting to me. And to be able to, to be able to have this conversation with you and just get the straightforward, skatey. I just love it. You're awesome. Oh, my pleasure. And I'm so happy that you're nearby. So we can see each other. Ditters on me. I'm going to pick a place and you will get to friends. All right, good. All right. Sounds great. Nice to talk to you. Now it's easy to see why Bobby is built such a devoted online following. She isn't afraid to be yourself. And that authenticity, that genuine character that she has is incredibly irresistible. Truly, Bobby is one of the most original and creative thinkers I know. And she 's not going to over complicate things. In fact, her ability to simplify, to cut through all the crap as she puts it, helps her spot ideas and solutions that other people miss. Great leaders excel at taking what's complex and then boiling it down to its bare essence and making it simple. And I hope seeing how Bobby does it inspires you to develop that discipline for yourself. In fact, if you're in a meeting this week and you see the conversation varying towards complexity, I want you to push yourself and your team to simplify. Embrace that naive thinking that Bobby calls it and see if there's a way to make things more straightforward. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that the best solutions are often the simplest ones. And coming up next on How Leaders Lead is the one and only Jamie Dimon, the chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase. A lot of businesses, you've seen this, you know, if you have a second-rate execution, you're in trouble. You know, if you have a first-rate execution, you can run a pretty good business whether or not you have a perfect strategy. So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each and every episode that you can actually apply to your business so that you're going to become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO]