Bobbi Brown 0:00 

I like to show people how simple things are. I'm kind of a simpleton. I'm not complicated, and I just like to cut through all the crap.

David Novak 0:16 

How do some leaders seem to tackle big challenges and make it look effortless? Well, the secret is in today's episode, welcome to how leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you can be. My guest today is world renowned entrepreneur and cosmetics Titan Bobby Brown. Her latest venture Jones road beauty is growing like crazy and is closing in on a $1 billion valuation, and that's in about five years. People love how she takes the complicated world of beauty and cosmetics and then makes it simple, and that simplicity shines through in how she leads to, I'm telling you, her ability to drill down and get to the heart of an issue is absolutely remarkable, and it's a skill every leader needs to develop. Leaders waste all kinds of time because they over complicate things, but when you learn to simplify, you can save yourself time and energy and ultimately find better solutions. So see how it's done in this conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Bobby Brown,

you know, Bobby, this podcast is obviously all about leadership, but, but I got to ask you, what was the biggest learning you had in 2024 Hmm,

Bobbi Brown 1:42 

let's see. You know, the biggest learning I have had is that I still have so much to learn, right? Like a lot of people kind of get to a point in their careers and they think, Well, I've done it all. I know everything. What do I have? No, I have a lot to learn. And I think I've really evolved a lot since starting Jones road.

David Novak 2:02 

Now that's fantastic, and we'll dig into that. And you know, every year I start out the year I do what I call my three by five exercise, where I write down what I am today, and then that's on one side of the card. On the other side is, how can I get even better? You know, as as as a leader, what do you think you you need to do to get even better as a leader, as you think about 2025 honestly,

Bobbi Brown 2:25 

for me, it's calmed down, you know, I get I get I you know, I care about every little detail. And sometimes I get frustrated by people that aren't doing exactly what I have in my head. And I have to kind of calm myself down and realize that my job is to tell them what I want and teach them how to do it, especially when you have a young team, as I do

David Novak 2:49 

and as I understand it. When you think about Jones, road beauty, you know there was literally a countdown for you being able to start that that business. Talk more about that when

Bobbi Brown 3:00 

my husband and I sold Bobby Brown cosmetics to Estee Lauder, there was one thing left to decide, and that was, would I sign a 25 year non compete and when you're 34 years old, the thought of working in 25 years was daunting. I said, I'm never going to want to work when I was 60, and I left Bobbi Brown cosmetics when I was 59.8 and I had four and a half years left on a non compete that I had to wait until I went back into the beauty industry that my industry that I love. So I launched the day my non compete was up that very day, that very day. Actually, it's the non compete was up on a Saturday. I did let them talk me into waiting till Monday morning, because no one thought Saturday or Sunday was a good day to launch. And by the way, it was a week before the presidential election, in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of all this social unrest, and nothing was going to stop me. I just wanted to get it done.

David Novak 4:03 

Where did you get that relentless, like drive to make things happen? I don't

Bobbi Brown 4:08 

know. I really don't know whether it's from my papa, Sam, that I watched him, you know, with his car dealership, or just realizing I'm not very patient. David, that's one thing that I need to work on. Also is patience, which I keep trying. I must be better than I used to be, but, but I just it. Made it like when I have something in my head, it made total sense to me, I have my freedom. What was I going to wait until January? You know, people said, Just wait till next year. Well, January, we had this thing, you know, known as January 6. So that wouldn't have been a good time either. So you know what the best time is. Do it now.

David Novak 4:46 

Well, here you are. Now. You've got another hit on your hands. And tell me about the Jones road brand itself and your core focus. You know, you know what? What is the real reason for being for this brand? Well,

Bobbi Brown 4:58 

I really thought it was going to. Be the small, indie brand that, you know, some people would like, because there's a lot of women that just struggle with makeup, and they just want to look better, but they still want to look like themselves. They want to look natural. And it's a it's a brand that is a clean brand. It's without chemicals, and it's without heavy marketed. You know, I hate to say the word bullshit, but it's a, it's without all of that. It's just products that, when you put them on, they make you look better. They make you look like you. There's definitely a Jones road look. If you are someone that likes contour and over made up, you're not going to like Jones road. So, you know, I want to make that clear, but I had like a purpose by doing this, because I wanted to teach women of all ages, all ages, 20s, you know, up until 100 that you could look better just by doing a few little things. And Jones road has it's, I guess, four and a half years now, four and a half years, boy,

David Novak 6:00 

time flies. I remember you talking about doing this brand, and here we are, you know. And I have to be honest, when I heard Jones road, I didn't immediately think of it being a cosmetic brand, you know. How did you land on that name? It's a

Bobbi Brown 6:17 

really interesting story, because I needed to have a name by a certain day in order to have the creative team kind of start doing the logos. And that's the thing that I love, is all the visual creative things. And we couldn't, either get a name, it wasn't available, or we couldn't agree on a name. Me, my husband, the kids, whoever was, you know, in my office, and we were driving to the Hamptons my husband and I, when my husband drives, he doesn't like me being in my device, which is hard for me because I'm always in my device. So I was on Waze and Google Maps because he didn't want to be late. And I looked down. We were somewhere in West Hampton. Looked down on the We're driving to Sag Harbor, and I looked and I saw on Waze Jones road. It just struck me. I said, Jones road. It sounded to me like a bespoke UK, British brand that someone, you know, said to me, oh, Bobby, would you please, you know, take this old brand and make it fabulous again. And I love the UK, and I couldn't use brown, so Jones and it was available. So that was a, that was a Friday and Monday, we made, we owned Jones road. I

David Novak 7:28 

love that story. And, you know, Bobby, there's no question you're like the cosmetic queen, and you've, you've revolutionized the whole beauty industry, and you're doing it again now, and you create these brilliant products. How often do you really go to the customer for input, or just how much of what you do is just your your base gut instinct. It's

Bobbi Brown 7:49 

really a combination. What's so amazing now, we used to, in the old I always call it, you know, in the olden days, we would go to, you know, all these companies and do all these surveys, and, you know, I just, I didn't care. I was like, Who are these people that are telling us what they like and don't like? But now I just go to my Instagram, I go to my sub stack, I go wherever, and I just ask questions. So I learn a lot from my my people, because most of the people that follow me are they're not haters, they're lovers. So we also have a dedicated Facebook group called the roadies. Jones wrote the roadies last count, there was 66,000 roadies, mostly women, and they have these communities. And if I ever ask a question, I mean, I get infused with information. I need one of the young kids on the product development team to go in and just make a list of all the requests, because I get overwhelmed just looking at them and I and I know what colors they want. I know what's working. I know it's not working, and it's instant information. And guess what? It costs zero what was the

David Novak 8:56 

biggest insight that you you would not have expected that you got from the social media input? Well,

Bobbi Brown 9:03 

I think a lot of people wanted products that the old company discontinued, you know, or colors, you know, things that that I created when I was there, and in the six years I've been gone, you know, they I don't, it has nothing to do with me. They get rid of things, you know, things I would have said, don't get rid of Don't be crazy, but they did. So people are like, we need that in the Jones road line. So I get a lot of information that way.

David Novak 9:30 

So you get back into basically this startup phase again for a new company. And you know what was the biggest leadership challenge you faced going back to the beginning and building a brand from the roots. Well,

Bobbi Brown 9:43 

certainly I didn't do it alone, you know, besides my husband and we have two board members, you know, really supportive, great. You know, people I can't live without. We we had a couple different people on leaders. Ship, and they really weren't the right people. And again, they were really young. I don't even think anyone was 30 at the time, and and it was not the easiest, and now they're all gone. And the, probably the most interesting thing is, who, who has like, you know, like sped up in our organization is is a boy named Cody, a guy named Cody that came in to help us with digital marketing. He just transformed our business. We quadrupled when he joined. He start then eventually became the head of marketing the CMO, and now he is the CEO. And what's so bizarre about this David, that he's 32 years old. He's my son. He's my second child, and so talk about interesting this. You know, this was this kid was on the golf team. He was a strength and conditioning coach. He never was interested in makeup, ever, ever, ever, and he's just this incredible leader. I don't know where he learned it. He it's, it's mind blowing. He is all three of my kids are pretty self taught on so many things, but he is now the CEO. I am the founder and CCO. So do I report to him, or does he report to me? It's unclear.

David Novak 11:21 

Well, I'm not going to venture to make a guess on that one. So So you know, not many people get asked this question, but with Bobby Brown cosmetics, you built an over billion dollar brand, and now you've got Jones Road, which is already as a billion dollar valuation as I understand it. What's it going to take for you to make Jones, road beauty a billion dollar brand in terms of revenue? I

Bobbi Brown 11:47 

don't know. I mean, I know we finished off last year. I don't know if you're and it's, it's, it's been printed at 154 million in four years. And you know, we don't have investors. We have, like, a crazy, ridiculous EBITDA, which I still don't even really understand where an EBITDA is, but I hear it's crazy and ridiculous, and we don't, you know, we're pretty scrappy still. We We do things, you know, we don't like to waste time or money, so we just have to keep doing what we're doing and just make sure that we're not, you know, don't become cocky and bloated because, you know, it's been, it's been like four pretty quick. You know, fast growing years. It's not gonna last forever, you know, we, we doubled, we this. It's not gonna keep happening like I know that. So this year, this year, which will be our fifth year, is gonna be more of a challenge. I know it even though we have, like, phenomenal products. I don't know how big you go, by the way, we're direct to consumer, except right now we have eight free standing stores. We're in one department store, so we don't have a plan to go into retail. How

David Novak 12:55 

do you balance dreaming and doing? Because you're a dreamer. I'm at right now, you're kind of laying back a little bit. Said, Oh, it's not gonna last forever, but you have big dreams, you know, and and you also are into the details. How do you how do you think about dreaming and doing? Yeah,

Bobbi Brown 13:11 

I don't have big dreams for this brand. I'm not like, Oh, I hope I sell it. I hope I sell it. I sold the first brand, and it was great for a while, until it wasn't. And then it was God awful. And I don't want to do that again, like, I don't want to go. If someone comes to me and says, you know, love, love to buy you, you know. And you know, you could just go on a vacation, I'd be like, No, I love doing what I'm doing. So, you know, I can't imagine me not doing this. By the way, I'm 67 years old, and to me, that's young. I don't look at myself as old. I'm young. You know, I don't know what I want to do when I'm 80. I know I want to be able to, you know, do yoga and, you know, pick pick things up off the ground. But I don't know what I want. You know, what kind of work I'll be doing. I definitely won't be playing cards.

David Novak 14:02 

You and me both are fairly young at heart in terms of how we look at things, you know. And I want to talk more about what you're doing at Jones road, but I want to take you back a little bit. I think you mentioned Papa Sam, or I've heard you call him Cadillac Sam before, or whatever, you know, but tell us a story from him that that taught you a key leadership lesson.

Bobbi Brown 14:28 

I don't know if it's urban myth or my aunt told me or this actually happened, but it's one of my favorite stories that Papa Sam was once in his car dealership, and some guy came in with this big overcoat. The guy looked like he had been sleeping on the street. He had two garbage bags with him, you know, like, literally garbage bags. And none of the men, you know, Papa was the boss, none of the men would would leave their offices. And Papa went up to the guy, and he called everyone, Doc, you know, the first of all, Papa was five two. He was this little, teeny guy, or five men. I don't even know if he was five four, and he's like, Hey, Doc, can I help you? And the guy said, Yeah, I want to buy a car. Papa said, All right, let me show you around. The guy bought two cars that day. The bags were full of cash. And so what does that teach me? It teaches me that you just don't know who you're dealing with by what people look like. You know, I don't know where the guy got his money. I don't know where he lived, but he bought two cars.

David Novak 15:23 

So you learned a lot from Papa Sam, you know, and now you have your own kids. What do you think's the biggest thing that your kids have picked up watching you?

Bobbi Brown 15:31 

I mean, I think that anything is possible and that there's no limits, you know, I I was definitely not the kid in high school that people said she's going places Absolutely not, you know, my parents, even you know, said we're not gonna punish her, push her when she doesn't get good grades, because she probably will never really be anything. You know. Maybe she'll be a teacher, which to me, that would have been a wonderful thing. And and I am a teacher, I guess, but I never really thought that I had the ability to do what I'm doing, which is probably why I'm so relentless now. I mean, I have a lot to prove, not to anyone, but to myself.

David Novak 16:13 

So you say, your teacher, you've mentioned that a couple of times, you know, what is it that has really drawn you to seeing yourself as a teacher, because

Bobbi Brown 16:23 

I have this naive ability. I'm very naive. I'm not afraid that something's not going to work out, because I don't believe there's such a thing. But I also have figured out like easy ways to do things, easy ways to put on eyeshadow. Easy Ways to Make myself not look tired, easy ways to do an enormous amount in the amount of time that it would take, you know, like half of the time it would take someone else. And so I like to show people how simple things are. I'm kind of a simpleton. I'm not complicated. And I just like to cut through all the crap. I'm like, guys, let me just show you, this is better. So I've written, I've written 10 books so far. I don't know, I don't know how to type, okay? And the first couple books were torturous for me, because I'd work with these editors and writers and they would say, okay, you've got to write, you know, the the synopsis, you've got to write this. You got to write this. And I like it drove me nutty. Finally, I realized, if I could just go into a studio with models and my team, and let's an idea, and let's just do some photography. I will take the pictures and put them in chapters, and then I will write to the photos. And it just made my life so much easier. And so I found a writer that understood that, and she was there with me.

Koula Callahan 17:46 

Hey, everyone, it's Kula. We'll get back to the interview in just a second before we do though, I have a question for you. Have you downloaded the how leaders lead app on your iPhone? If you haven't take 20 seconds right now, go to the App Store, search for how leaders lead and download the how leaders lead app. In the app every day, you'll get a two minute video that'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our podcast to inspire you and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work day. So go to the App Store, search how leaders lead, download the how leaders lead app and start your day, every day with two minutes of leadership wisdom. It'll take 20 seconds go to the App Store, download the app, and you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight from how leaders lead, for those of

David Novak 18:35 

you who don't know your story, getting back to the this notion of you figuring things out, when did you have that seminal moment, Bobby, where you you said, where you knew you wanted to work up, work out in the in the makeup world? Well,

Bobbi Brown 18:49 

I didn't know what I wanted to do in makeup, but I knew that I wanted. I knew I had to go to college. My parents did not give me a choice. I had to graduate, and I knew that I was passionate about makeup. I didn't like wearing a lot of it. I just loved playing with it and it just, you know, made me look pretty and feel pretty. And my mother helped me find my mother and my father helped me find a college that allowed me to study makeup, which was Emerson College in Boston. They didn't have a makeup degree. They let me create one and make my own up. Now it's probably called an entrepreneurship but back then it was called an interdisciplinary major. I still don't know what interdisciplinary means, and so I just kind of realized that I could figure things out. Because I'm not your traditional learner. I'm not your traditional anything. I can't really cook. I can't follow a recipe, but I could give a really good dinner party, and I could make everything look beautiful, and kind of hack things to make them mine. And so that's what I do. That's

David Novak 19:56 

great, you know? And we have so many leaders listening. This podcast that you know are trying to build their businesses and and just for illustrative purposes. You know, when you think back at what it took for you to build Bobby Brown cosmetics, how would you describe the top two or three strategic decisions you made that that really in your mind, put that brand on the on the map. What did you do?

Bobbi Brown 20:26 

Well, certainly it's the team. And by the way, you know, having the team, having people that you can say anything to. You could say, I hate that. You could say, I'm frustrated. You could say, oh my god, if we only could do this, it'd be so cool for them to understand. So having your your team is number one. And by the way, having the team be able to come into me with a closed door and say, you know, my husband and I are splitting up. I'm not myself. Please forgive me, my kids are this my I like to me that's really important, and that just does not have a place in corporate America. But I always made sure it happened. So that was something that I think really helped, you know, things happen, and also there's, there's so many different pieces of building this, you know, billion dollar business over 22 years I stayed and and there's shifts and there's changes, and some things work and some things don't work, and you have to know when they're not working, and just kind of push yourself back and think, and then have people your posse around you to say, All right, what could we do? What should we do now? You know? And that was important, yeah,

David Novak 21:39 

those are great, great insights and and you, you did step away in 2016 from Bobby Brown cosmetics, and you mentioned the frustration you had in terms of just, you know, working there, you know, what? What advice can you give to people who get in this environment where, you know, you're just frustrated that things aren't going the way I you think they they should go. I mean, it, it's, it's easy when you're at the top to say, Okay, I'm getting out of here. Okay, well, but you know, when you're moving up and you see how things are, what coaching could you give someone out what teaching Could you provide us? Well,

Bobbi Brown 22:19 

you have to, you know, you never know when it's time to get out. You just don't I, you know, there's no, there's no magic, anything. I stayed probably a couple years longer than I should have, and it really took my 80 something year old aunt, who's just turned 94 to say, Bobby, I've been hearing you complain for the last couple years. You're not going to fix this. You're just, you're not going to fix this. And finally, I said, you know, and Dallas, you're right, I'm not going to fix it. And I realized that, like, no, no, I used to go into work with like, a mental roll of tape and think, Okay, I could tape things up and fix them temporarily until we do this. And finally I realized, you know what? It's it's not going to happen, you know? And I realized there was a lot of people that were hired without my interviewing them, and they were just not the right people, and the decisions were being made were not the right decisions. And, you know, thank goodness that I went through the misery I did. So there's a reason everybody for why. You know when you're miserable, that's when you have to just say, Okay, now what you know, and it's and it's always a financial thing, like, I don't want to tell people, just leave, just quit. No, you've got to feel secure that you could still pay your rent and mortgage, and know when the time is right. You know

David Novak 23:38 

what's a key learning from building Bobby Brown that that you know you've taken as you're building this Jones road business. I

Bobbi Brown 23:46 

mean, it's so funny, because, you know, with with all the years, you know difference. It's the same theories, but it's how people are absorbing information now, and how we just do things differently now, and it's and it's so much more modern, and it's so much more of the time. So, you know, key learnings are making sure that you put only the best product out there. I mean, there's just, you just have to and, and, you know what? I just canceled a launch three days before we were going to launch, because I realized, and it was not an easy decision, because I realized it was a product that needed a few more months to fix a color for certain skin tone. So I just had to call my son and say, We can't do this. And now we've had a move and shift, but it never would have happened in in like a big, giant company that, you know, the retail numbers are waiting for you, and all the you know, department stores and magazines like you know, but it's different now we we pulled it and we'll bring it back when it's right,

David Novak 24:59 

you've told me, but. For that you love doing things that you don't know how to do. I mean, that's, that's a unique characteristic. What's the last new thing you got yourself into? And what's the biggest, biggest thing it taught you? Well,

Bobbi Brown 25:13 

the last project I did, I you know my husband, I have a hotel in Montclair called the George, and I met this really nice woman that was having breakfast. I asked her what she did, and she told me she was the CMO of William Sonoma. So first they asked me to join on the board, which I I said, There's no way I'm gonna sit there. And, you know, on a board four times a year, and I know I'm not gonna happen. And then she asked if I wanted to do a collaboration of, you know, to create these products for Williams, Sonoma home, and so I did it. And, you know, we designed these products. It was so interesting, so fun. I don't know anything except I made things I really like, and now I'm waiting to see how well they did, hopefully. So we could do more products.

David Novak 26:00 

And speaking of new things, I understand you're a really big deal on Tiktok, you know, talk a bit more about how you've been using social media to grow the brand. You've talked a little bit about it. Say more.

Bobbi Brown 26:13 

Well, when we launched, it was really Instagram, you know, I opened up well curated Instagram the morning that we launched, I used my personal one to drive people to the Jones road one. And you know, there wasn't Tiktok then. And then Tiktok became a thing. And you know, it was actually my son that said mom, and he literally held a phone up in my face. Go ahead, Mom, what do you want to say? And like, without thinking, I said, Hey guys, it's Bobby here. I'm new to tick tock, so please help me. Tell me what you want to see for me, what videos, what you want me to do. And I really appreciate it. And I got bombarded with people asking questions and saying, Oh my God, thank God you're here, because I had been, you know, a little quiet for the few years earlier. And a lot of women, of you know, 40s, 50s and 60s, were on tick tock, as you know, and they needed someone to teach them how to not look tired, or how to keep their eye mate, whatever it was. And we ended up really like, blowing up the business. And it was great. We ran out of products. I went back on Tiktok and said, see what you guys did now. You got to wait till we make them again. And you know, Tiktok is not as working as it did a couple years ago. It, you know, we're still on it. And I, you know, I've done a bunch of things that have gone viral, but now the newest thing is sub stack. Do you know about sub stack? I have not partaken that. Yeah, sub stack, honestly, if it could be an interesting thing, even to have one of your guys open you up a sub stack, because it's just, it's like, really like newsletters, and it's, it's information, and there's really dedicated audience on that. So more and more we're leaning into sub stack and and YouTube. So whatever's there, you know, we lean into it and, you know, until it doesn't work anymore, I

David Novak 28:12 

think you just gave me a great idea. I think I'd go on tick tock and say, Hey guys, you know, what do you want to know about leadership? And, you know, fire away. That's a good idea. But

Bobbi Brown 28:20 

that's honestly, how it works. And then, you know, you might get two people answering you. You might get 200 people. You might get, you know, more than that. You don't know. And you know, and it's, I think it's a great way to connect with people. And you and the people are all over the world, you know, they're in India, they're in Thailand. It's really interesting. You know,

David Novak 28:40 

there's this sort of law in with brands that you know almost it's the 2080 rule, 20% of the users count for 80% of your your volume. How do you think about that in your business, serving your super core, heavy user base? Is that something that you you really think about or do you just let it happen? Well,

Bobbi Brown 29:02 

I let it happen. If my son was here, he'd have an answer. He thinks about it. And, you know, I know that. You know, we launched TV ads a year ago, and ever since, honestly, ever between the social media and the TV ads, you know, we're all over cable. I can't go anywhere without someone stopping me. So it's, it's really done, you know, amazing awareness and but you know what? There's still plenty of people that still think I'm with Bobby Brown cosmetics, like there are people out there that have never heard of Jones road. So to me, new customers are the biggest opportunity. We have incredible loyal customers that buy and Buy and buy because they love it. They don't need any more than they have, you know, replenishment, you know, couple times a year. But so I'm all about new customers. Yeah,

David Novak 29:54 

that makes a lot of sense. When you have a new business. You want to maximize the trial. Once you get the trial, then you can look at your user. Base, and that's really kind of what you're doing here, you know. And you know, back to teaching one more time here, you know, you've always been one to teach more than sell. You say you teach more than sell. What do you mean by

Bobbi Brown 30:13 

that? Mean, I don't want to be known as the person that's Hawking my products. I want to, I want and I, you know, I was on the Today Show for 14 years. So and I, and I took that very serious. I was the beauty editor The Today Show. I was, I never mentioned my products, never mentioned my brand, but I taught women, you know, whatever topic it was, look how easy this is if you find a foundation that matches your skin, and this is what you look for. And you know, I had two to four minutes to tell them this, and then it just so happened, everybody ran to the counters. Bobby on the Today Show talked about a yellow base foundation, and my team at, you know, at the store, knew what that meant. And so that was incredible. So I don't want to be the one that says in three easy payments on QVC, even when I was on QVC, which had a giant audience, I was the teacher, and that's just who I am. Something

David Novak 31:08 

that I've come to know and appreciate about you is that one of your great gifts is to being able to look at something and see how it could be better. Tell me a story about how you're doing that right now? Well,

Bobbi Brown 31:21 

it's, it's actually a nice, you know, it's a positive thing, but it's also a curse, because I can't walk into any place without my mind saying, Oh, I could do this better, you know, whether it's a hotel room or, you know, my living room, you know, I think if I just did this, it would be better so it, you know, I'd like to be a little more Zen, truthfully. And I did buy a magazine that teaches meditation, but I haven't read it yet, and that's the true story. But, you know, normally I look at these things and I'm like, Hmm, what if the cap would do this, and then you wouldn't be looking for it when it's open. What if it was something that you just squeeze so I'm always kind of thinking how to do it better, even when my team puts things in a box to send to an influencer or a celebrity, I'm always like, can you send me a picture? And I'm like, Alright, guys, look, if you just put more this and do this. And they're like, Oh, my God, you're so right. It looks better. I I'm not a micromanager, but I guess I am. But you're

David Novak 32:26 

extremely prolific. You know, you talked about the number of books that you've written and you've created countless products. How do you foster your own creativity? Gosh, how

Bobbi Brown 32:37 

do i Calm it down? Is the problem? You know, I mean, I just, I don't have to try. I'm really curious. I'm incredibly visual. And I, you know, I get a lot of inspiration on social media. I do, I literally, I, you know, I search, I Google, you know, I don't even Google anymore. I just, I just search on social media because I love seeing pictures, whether it's a hotel I'm interested in visiting, whether it's a restaurant, I like to see everything, and that helps me, you know, form an opinion. And I'm always like passing the things I find on Instagram to like the team. My team say, Oh, my God, it'd be so cool if we did this. Oh, we love that. And so I communicate through visuals. How

David Novak 33:27 

do you bring out the creativity in others? You know, a lot of people don't see themselves as creative, but when they get the right kind of prodding, they become creative, you know, how do you bring it out of people? Well, I

Bobbi Brown 33:40 

recently just said to the girl that is doing our packaging, that is really, you know, she's been showing me a lot of different packaging from the packaging industry. And I'm like, go to an art store, go to a gourmet food store, you know, I asked her, she ever heard of Dina de Lucas? I used to get a lot of ideas going to that store and just look at their packaging, look at the way they're doing things different, and what could be brought in. And, you know, at Jones road, we don't make packaging. We we use stock because we like to keep the cost down to our customers. So we don't, you know, spend a lot of money on it, but you've got to be creative. And you know what you've got to look outside of your industry sometimes to bring creativity in. You're an

David Novak 34:26 

elite business mind. I mean, there's no question about it, because you built great businesses, and you know, you're obviously got the creativity. Do you push yourself to get even better on the business side, or do you delegate that? Well,

Bobbi Brown 34:39 

it depends what it is. I mean, I'm really good with things I'm interested in, but if I'm not interested in it, you know, I'm not so good at it. So, you know, I would really like to find an amazing business coach for some of my top tier employees that you know, our creative director is literally 20. Yeah, seven years old. I don't even know she's that old yet, but she's phenomenal, but she's got a whole team she has to lead. So, you know, it's, it's, we don't have, you know, the wherewithal or the time to do that right now, but it's definitely on my, on my list, because I do think people have things that they, you know, if they're taught, they'll learn you were

David Novak 35:21 

in this corporate environment with esta lotta, and you stayed with that company, building the Bobby Brown brand for, you know, 22 years or so in that environment, you know, when you got everything coming at you and, you know, different, you're different. You know, how did you stay true to yourself? Was it easy for you to do? Yes,

Bobbi Brown 35:43 

it was easy for me, because I can't be something I'm not. It just doesn't fit. I mean, I tried that early on in my career, you know, to be the cool person at the fashion shoot, to be the corporate person to be. I just it didn't fit. It didn't feel good. So I always, you know, I only know how to be myself. I only, I'm not afraid to ask, to say, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, because people talk like they're the smartest people in the universe, and sometimes I have no idea what they're saying, but when they explain it to me, I'm like, Ah, I understand what you're saying. Is this, and often that, you know, like the big guys would laugh at me because it was so, oh so sweet that she just, you know, translated. I'm like, Yeah, but at least that's how I understand and that's how I'm gonna solve that's how I'm gonna solve this problem that all you guys are doing is talking about it. I'm gonna find a solution for it. Yes, I know where we're down $3 million but by my CFO at the time, was still one of my closest friends, explaining to me that that some of our products do a million dollars a piece, and the new products, you know, have cannibalized everything else. I'm like, Well, why don't I just come up with two new colors of bronzers that'll bring you a couple million dollars. And he's like, okay, and we did it, and we made the year because of it, but, but he, he took the time to explain to me what was happening, instead of someone, you know, some pompous person being, you know, you don't know what I'm talking about.

David Novak 37:13 

You know, you've talked about the ability to simplify, bring things back to their their core essence. And you know, you take these things that could be seemingly complex, and you kind of make them simple for people. How do you coach people on on how to simplify things? How do you how do you personally break things down to the bare essence?

Bobbi Brown 37:33 

Well, first of all, I am not on Slack, which my entire team is on Slack, if I want to know something, I pick up the phone and I call and I ask a question. I don't even like the emails that go back and forth. And when there's, you know, big email chain, I just pick up the phone and call, you know, someone to kind of discuss it. And I just don't want to be on a text so I just look at things and I'm like, Okay, what is the real issue here? What are our options? How can we get this done? What makes the most sense? I don't know if this is like a quality I have because I'm from Chicago, you know, like the Midwest is very, you know, I know it's not the center of our country, but it's, you know, it's a very simple place to be from. We'll

David Novak 38:19 

be back with the rest of my conversation with Bobby Brown in just a moment. Now, talking to Bobby, I'm reminded of another creative, outside the box thinker, and that's Jesse Cole, the guy behind the sensational Savannah bananas baseball team. I love the way he and his team find great ideas, and they go after him with a zeal like I've never seen. We

Jesse Cole 38:42 

believe attention beats marketing 1,000% of the time we don't have a marketing plan. David, we have an attention plan. So we get together as our staff every Monday. Today, in a little bit, we'll have our OTT meeting, which is over the top ideas and outrageous ideas we can do at the field to create attention and create more fans. And so that is our entire plan that we think about, what are we doing that's going to be unique and different? And as you know, David, obviously, with all the different brands you had, with young brands and Taco Bell, especially, you thought dramatically different with everything it was, what will this product do to create some attention, unique and get people talking? And we're so obsessed with that. We learned that from PT, Barnum, Walt, Disney, get people talking. So that's part of the model that we think about. And you mentioned dance the New York Times wrote a great article on that. You know, it started with a test players dancing. Could our players dance every game? Then could we have a break dancing coach? Then could we have a banana bananas senior citizen dance team? And now we have a dancing umpire. When he strikes out someone, he does a full fledged dance while he's striking out a guy. So it's keep taking it to the next level, which then creates more attention. Go

David Novak 39:44 

back and listen to my entire conversation with Jesse episode 96 here on how leaders lead. You know, it's very hard to walk away from something that you built, like Bobby Brown. You built that brand, and now here you are at Jones road. Yeah, you know, so when you, when you think about it, what's been the best part of that experience for you

Bobbi Brown 40:06 

with the first or the second part or the whole thing? No, the best

David Novak 40:10 

part of walking away and moving to Jones road? Well, the

Bobbi Brown 40:15 

best part is, success is a bitch. You know, success, it's like, Okay, I did this and, you know, I didn't do it alone, but I didn't do it with all the, you know, people that thought they were responsible for the success, you know, the first time. So I did it my way. And guess what? It worked better. And you know, it just is, makes me feel good that I'm not a one hit wonder. You know, I David, I could have been, easily. I could have been a one hit wonder, and that would have been an okay thing too. But I'm, you know, I'm not. Do you

David Novak 40:54 

wake up with that kind of anxiety? Does it when you go to bed at night? Do you think about, oh, what if I'm a one hit wonder? None of that that didn't drive you. So what is it that drove you? Then it wasn't, it wasn't fear. Then, right?

Bobbi Brown 41:07 

No, it was. It was curiosity, excitement. It's the it's the naive, like thoughts that are, wow. I bet this will work. I think people will like this. Why don't I could do it this way. This makes such sense, and it's so simple, you know, like you just, you have an idea, you tell someone, they make it, you work on it for a while, and then you're like, Okay, what are we going to put it in? How are we going to tell people about it? Like all those, they're all problem solving things, and how do we do it in a new way? Like, like, I'll never forget, during the pandemic, we launched face pencils, you know, the little pencils that cover spots dark circles. And, you know, they put them in a box, and I always have to approve how it looks. And I said, this looks really boring. So I said, All right, take them out of the outside box. Just have the pencils and put, you know, put the whole range together and go to go to this the go to the store and get me those stasher bags, which are these clear, you know, rubber plastic bags. Put them in there. So when the makeup artists or influencers get them, they open it up and they just, you could see all the colors. It looks good. It won't break because the bags are cushiony, and they're gonna put it right in their makeup bag, which they did. And it was a huge success, because we did it not the way other people do it. We did it in this like, yeah, that makes total sense. And it didn't cost a lot of money, but it was a better visual impact, and it was just more practical.

David Novak 42:43 

That's great. You know, I knew it would be fun, and it always is catching up with you, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. What three words best describe you? Quick,

Bobbi Brown 42:55 

nice, and I think funny. If

David Novak 42:59 

you could be one person for a day besides yourself. Who would it be? Let's

Bobbi Brown 43:03 

see that's between someone really gorgeous and really smart and really tall. All right, I think I'll be a basketball player. I'll be an athlete. What's your biggest pet peeve when people don't tell the truth? I don't like when people are afraid to tell you the truth. Who

David Novak 43:21 

would play you at a movie? Well, um, would it

Bobbi Brown 43:25 

be Demi Moore? People always said, I kind of look like Demi Moore would have been an A young ally McGraw, and most people my age have done too much cosmetic surgery, so I don't know.

David Novak 43:39 

I'm curious. You know, what do you give out to trick or treaters that come to your house? Well,

Bobbi Brown 43:44 

for decades, I gave out makeup. Gave out makeup. My husband gave big candy bars. I gave out makeup. At one time we had to get, like, 2200 or 2400 pieces of makeup. But we moved and when people come to the door, we're like, no, Bobby doesn't live here anymore, so we don't. We had to stop you've

David Novak 44:05 

had so many celebrities that have used your products over the year which have really wowed you.

Bobbi Brown 44:10 

I mean, you know, Michelle Obama always, always amazing. I mean, I there's been so many that have, that have wowed me. I just it's amazing when you meet these people that are larger than anything and they're just the nicest people in the world.

David Novak 44:28 

What was one of your last I can't believe it's happening to me. Moments I

Bobbi Brown 44:32 

and my family got invited to the Paul McCartney concert in London and to sit in the VIP seats with Mrs. You know, Mrs. McCartney's friends and family. They were people that had, you know, one name, like Ringo and, you know, Ron woods. And it was really kind of, you know, and the backstage party afterwards, that was a giant pinch me moment. Oh, yeah. What's

David Novak 44:57 

the one thing you do just for. You

Bobbi Brown 45:00 

exercise. I am a I love, love. Love to push myself into exercise, or I love to decide to not exercise and just chill out in the morning, your most

David Novak 45:14 

prized possession, my three children, if I turn the radio, daughter, oh, there you go. If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear? You will hear

Bobbi Brown 45:22 

music that you won't believe would be on my on my Spotify. I I'm a hip hop lover. I just love hip hop music.

David Novak 45:33 

What's something about you? Few people would know I

Bobbi Brown 45:35 

don't know. With Instagram, everyone knows everything. I danced on stage with Flo Rida and I danced on stage with salt and pepper. I was, I was in a motorcade once with, you know, Secretary of Defense, you know, Mr. Panetta. So with a lot of weird moments, what's

David Novak 45:54 

one of your daily rituals that you never miss double espresso

Bobbi Brown 45:58 

and a cap of half and half after a giant glass of water or green juice, you're

David Novak 46:03 

so healthy. That's so great. All right, that's the end of the lightning round. Just a few more questions. I'll let you go. Yeah, we talked about all these phenomenal hits that you've had. You know so many successes is, is, what was the biggest thing that didn't go right? And when you look back and what'd you learn from it?

Bobbi Brown 46:21 

Well, am so happy that this didn't work, because it's nice to be able to tell people that you know, not everything I touch works. I started a wellness brand that was selling vitamins and powders right when I left Bobbi Brown cosmetics, and we launched it at Walmart, put a little team together, and it was really promising and exciting, and it did not work. Did not work, and I walked away from it to do you know when I was able to launch Jones road, the big learning was, don't just ask your assistants and your friends to help you with the business. Hire someone that knows what they're doing.

David Novak 47:06 

All right, you're a mother of three. What's the best practice you'd share about leading at home?

Bobbi Brown 47:11 

Let your husband think he's leading.

David Novak 47:16 

Love it. I've heard you say your lifestyle leads your work style. What do you mean by that?

Bobbi Brown 47:24 

It means they work together, you know, I luckily I don't have to commute anymore. And, you know, I just think it's really important to bring your best self to work. And when you are working, you know, make sure you drink enough water so your brain's working. Make sure you take enough breaks and fuel your body with, you know, a nice, healthy, you know, lunch, because if you're gonna eat, you know, two pieces of pizza and a Diet Coke, you're gonna literally sink into the chair. So the better you take care of yourself, the more energy you'll have for your life and your work.

David Novak 48:03 

And so here you are now. You're 67 years young. You don't even think about your age. You're much, much younger in terms of how you approach everything. So I'm curious, what do you see now, especially after being such a serial entrepreneur. What do you see now as your unfinished business? Well, I

Bobbi Brown 48:25 

want to continue to build muscle in my body like I don't think I've reached where I'm going to end up. And this year, I'm very proud I I gained three pounds, three to four pounds of muscle. Lost one, one pound of body fat. So, you know, that's when I don't have a lot of weight to lose. So that was a I had to work really hard with the weights. And I'm really proud that I can get up off the floor without holding on to my hand. So that's something that I'm I'm working on, you know, I'm also working on, how do we as a company get better without, you know, hiring a bloated organization all

David Novak 49:12 

makes sense. You know, last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

Bobbi Brown 49:19 

Breathe. Breathe. Be kind, and just realize people learn from example and how, how the words come out of your mouth actually matter. And, you know, create an environment where people are comfortable to come in and close the door and tell you a struggle they're having. You know, I think that's important.

David Novak 49:46 

Well, Bobby, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation. And I was really looking forward to it, because when you have the opportunity to talk to an iconic person, you know, someone who has really done. Things in their life and really change the way how industries tick. It's really exciting to me, and to be able to to be able to have this conversation with you and just get this straightforward skiddy, I just love it. You're awesome. Oh,

Bobbi Brown 50:14 

my pleasure, and I'm so happy that you're nearby so we could see each other. Dinner's on

David Novak 50:20 

me. I'm gonna pick a place, and you will get to friends. All right, good. All

Bobbi Brown 50:24 

right, sounds great. Nice to talk to you.

David Novak 50:32 

Now, it's easy to see why Bobby has built such a devoted online following. She isn't afraid to be herself, and that authenticity, that genuine character that she has is incredibly irresistible. Truly, Bobbi is one of the most original and creative thinkers I know, and she's not going to over complicate things. In fact, her ability to simplify, to cut through all the crap, as she puts it, helps her spot ideas and solutions that other people miss great leaders excel at taking what's complex and then boiling it down to its bare essence and making it simple. And I hope seeing how Bobby does it inspires you to develop that discipline for yourself. In fact, if you're in a meeting this week and you see the conversation veering towards complexity, I want you to push yourself and your team to simplify, embrace that naive thinking that Bobby calls it, and see if there's a way to make things more straightforward. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that the best solutions are often the simplest ones, and coming up next on how leaders lead is the one and only Jamie Dimon, the Chairman and CEO of JP Morgan Chase

Jamie Dimon 51:49 

a lot of businesses. You've seen this. You know, you if you have a second rate execution, you're in trouble. You know, if you have a first rate execution, you can run a pretty good business, whether or not you have a perfect strategy. So

David Novak 52:03 

be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each and every episode that you can actually apply to your business, so that you're going to become the best leader you can be. You.