David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Ethan Brown, founder and CEO of Beyond Meat. Now, you're gonna hear a lot of leaders and they'll talk about changing the world. But that is literally Ethan's mission at Beyond Meat. His company is devoted to getting the same protein as animal beat straight from plants, so that they can reduce climate change, improve human health, and help animal welfare. Now, if that isn't an epic mission, I don't know what is. And you know, when you listen to Ethan, you realize just how powerful his sense of purpose is, is the driving force behind the incredible product development of Beyond Meat. It's what influences their marketing and competitive strategy. It's also a huge piece of their team culture. That sense of purpose is like the ultimate source of renewable energy. Now, of course, your sense of purpose is going to vary. But great leaders know how to use purpose as motivation, when the going gets tough, or they need to reach a big goal. Ethan does this exceptionally well, it was so much intelligence and humility to boot. So let's dig in and see how great leaders tap into the power of purpose. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Ethan Brown.

Ethan, thanks so much for taking the time to chat with us.

Ethan Brown 1:49 

Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here. As you know, I'm a big fan of your work. And I've followed your career and read a lot of your work. And so just really appreciative to be here.

David Novak 1:59 

You know, Ethan, I'd like to just start out by having you give us a basic primer. What is beyond meat? And what kind of products are you making today?

Ethan Brown 2:06 

Sure. So Beyond Meat is a protein company. And what we do is instead of running plant material and water through animals, we instead extract the core parts of meat directly from the plant. And we use a system of heating, cooling and pressure to align those in the architecture of muscle or meat. And so if you think about what the animals doing, they're consuming a lot of vegetation and a lot of water. And they use their biology to organize that in the form of muscle, which is familiar to us as meat. But what we're doing is taking those core parts of meat, which are amino acids, lipids, trace minerals, vitamins, and of course, water directly from plant material, and we are organizing those against the blueprint or architecture of meat. So we're building meat directly from plants. And for us, it's been 11 year journey, we're getting closer and closer. But we do believe there'll be a day when we'll be able to provide a product to consumers that is indistinguishable from animal protein. And it provides terrific and nutritious protein for the son of the plate.

David Novak 3:06 

I understand that your dad's you know, he was a professor, but he actually grew up on a farm and he had a farm when you were a kid, it was basically as his hobby. Yeah. Did that have any influence on you? Either?

Ethan Brown 3:18 

Oh, yes, it did. It did. And my father more generally, I've been very fortunate to enjoy a great relationship with him. And he's actually still teaching. He's at McGill in Montreal, and you're early on. He's an interesting, interesting person. He grew up in what was at the time rural Connecticut, and my grandfather, his father was a minister, and had the opportunity to be the chaplain at a couple of different colleges. And so they they moved a bit in New England doing that, but as always in beautiful rural areas. And so when it came time for him to pursue his career, he really had to decide how to balance his desire to be in the outdoors and in nature, with his career ambitions, which are were pretty significant around academia. And so, you know, when he got his degree in philosophy from Columbia, and at the time, he set the record for finishing his coursework because he just couldn't stand being in New York City. And that's very unusual for a young person to behave that way, right to think I guess, gotta get out of the city. And, and so that sort of stuck, that kind of urgency to be out in the outdoors, stayed with him throughout my childhood. And so though we grew up in Washington, DC, and then later in College Park, Maryland, we have a farm in the western part of the state of Maryland, it became a retreat for us and my father's a bit entrepreneurial himself. And so instead of just being a kind of casual hobby farm, he turned into a dairy operation with our neighbor up there and so I did have a lot of time spent there and had an interesting childhood where I was growing up in the city but also having these long stretches of time out in the country. And so I think I really learned a lot through that process and informs my thinking today,

David Novak 5:05 

my mother, she actually lived on a farm and I could see the schoolhouse that they went to about a mile. I still can smell the the tractor smell, right? It's always it's like in my mind

Ethan Brown 5:17 

or the sound of a chainsaw. That just brings you right back. It's really interesting. Yeah,

David Novak 5:22 

absolutely. You know, is it true, I read this somewhere that you were actually a fast food junkie. That's music to my ears. So is it true that you really liked the like fast food,

Ethan Brown 5:32 

it's more on target than that. So I have just terrific memories of being on the Chesapeake Bay. And we used to get a big bucket of KFC and take it out on the bay and just have a great day sailing and enjoying KFC chicken. And so my first date was at McDonald's. And, you know, I grew up really enjoying that I think it's great food and great experience to be able to get affordable food like that. And so, for me Beyond Meat, it's never been about high end chefs or, you know, five star restaurants. It's been about how do we meet people in their daily lives where they are and affect the most and highest number of people providing them with nutritious food?

David Novak 6:19 

Well, I'm really happy that you enjoy that Kentucky Fried Chicken for a while now I understand that you did become a vegan. Yeah, you know what really drove that process?

Ethan Brown 6:28 

You know, it's interesting. So I got into energy, because I cared and I say this before, but I think it's worth repeating. When I was getting out of school, I was restless, like many young people, and I took a lot of different turns trying to figure out exactly how I wanted to express, you know, my commitment to try to make this a better world. And so I was sitting in my father's office, kind of right after school. And I was saying, I really want to stop studying right now. And I was in graduate, I want to, I want to just go out and do it myself. My friends are doing X, Y and Z. Let's talk about your career. I said, Okay. And he said, you know, how should I think about this is, well, what's the biggest problem in the world. And it didn't come to me right away. But I said, we know, I really think it's probably climate, because if if we can't get the climate stabilized, you know, I can be the best lawyer in the world or surgeon in the world, or whatever I could try to aspire to be. But if the world is destabilized, because of the basic environment in which we live is become unstable, those things are going to be impacted, and it's gonna impact everything. So if you asked me what the biggest problem is, I have to say, well, it's probably climate change. And so he said, Well, that's probably a good way to focus your career. And so I did that, I thought that's, that makes sense to me. And so I started to get into, to energy. And, and worked for for a long time and energy. But I began to realize that it wasn't just, you know, the car we drive, or the light ball we use, or the power plant, the power is the facilities in which we work. It's also the protein at the center of the plate. In fact, the protein, that center of the plate is probably a more important solution than anything else we can do in terms of addressing climate. And so that became a fascination for me. And I said, I gotta go out and figure out how we can continue to enjoy the incredible experience of the culinary work we've done around animal protein, etc. But do it with protein extract from plant, and that will make a very significant contribution to climate. Now, I also had other motivations. When you when you grow up around animals on the farm, it's much harder to think about them as units, right? And so you begin to think about them in their lives, then you begin to think about, you know, the use of land, energy and water. And then, of course, human health, right. And so all of those things started to fascinate me. And I became really interested in one concept that I could focus on one thing, which is changing the protein at the senator plate, from an animal based protein to a plant based protein, and I could simultaneously advance for things that I think are important that human health, it's climate change, it's the conservation of natural resources. And lastly, in welfare, I'd never seen anything in my career. And I still haven't today, where through a singular focus, you can advance four really important objectives.

David Novak 9:24 

What do you think you do most that improves human health? I want to go through each one of those trends. So that's very interesting.

Ethan Brown 9:29 

Sure. So I think it's it's in this is it's, it's something that's just constantly evolving. And so and by the way, you know, we've worked with KFC, as you know, and it's just been a tremendous experience. And they are, you should be very proud. I mean, they're leaning forward in a way that just shows their leadership and Kevin there, and it's just, it's been a remarkable partnership. And so the idea here is let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Let's try to get everything that's great about animal protein, which is there's a lot right it's got a sources of protein etc. But you have to also remember that the the muscle which we harvest, as meat is there for the animal to do work just like the muscle and your bicep is there to do work. So not everything in that muscle is going to be great for you if you consume it every day, right. And so let's find a way to capture everything that's great in that and reduce the things that aren't. And so we think about their products have no cholesterol, they have lower saturated fat, they have no heme iron, they have no heterocyclic, Amiens, so all of these things that are, are increasingly of concern to the metal community, we can strip out. And so for me, we actually trademark this, we feel so passionate about it. Eat what you love. If you love having burgers, if you love having chicken, go and keep doing it. But we're going to do it in a way that's better for you. And that's where plant based meat comes into play.

David Novak 10:51 

Well, how do you how do you even respond to the criticism that you get that the food is to process? That's

Ethan Brown 10:56 

a great, that's a really appreciate the question, because it is an important perspective that we have to do a lot of education around. And with the COVID-19 disruption that's happened to our economy, we've taken a pause on that. But 2020 really will be about for us clarifying with the consumer, what it means to think about our process. And so first and foremost, I really believe it's a tale of two processes. If you look at our process, we're stripping the protein from the plant. And how do we do that, it's pretty basic. So we have a supplier. Now that does this for us. But what happens is, let's say I'll take peas, so the peas are milled, so you have a flower. And then you place that flower, in literally in water, you change the pH level of that water, you could do that with a lemon if you want it to. And that separates the fiber and the protein, the protein is extracted, and it's dried. And then we run that through heating, cooling and pressure. And that's essentially resetting the bonds from the organization that they would have in a plant to one that's more analogous to one that they would have in muscle. That's kind of our process. Now, you have to juxtapose that with the other process, which is to feed a lot of material to an animal, use the animal's biology to convert all of that into muscle, and then you harvest the animal or slaughter the animal. There are a lot of steps in that that consumers are increasingly uncomfortable with, including the use of antibiotics and things like that. So we're able to skip all of that. So I think it's important to think about your process is simply a word. And it's actually if you look it up, it's a series of steps towards a goal. Right. So process is neutral. And I think there's been some clever marketing among incumbent members of industry to suggest that just because there's a process involved, that's somehow bad, I think it's important to step back and say, Okay, what is the process?

David Novak 12:54 

Yeah, that's a great point, you know, and I want to talk a little bit more about that later that the second trend that you're addressing, which you already brought up was the whole issue of climate change, what would be the biggest thing you're doing that's going to impact that?

Ethan Brown 13:07 

It's really around the more efficient conversion of plant material to meat. And so if you look at, if you take a burger, for example, that's created through our process, and you take a burger that's created through the normal process of running plant material through the animal, we have 90%, fewer greenhouse gas emissions. And that just has to do with a lot of efficiencies along the way. And so just like in business, and operations courses, micro economics courses, the goal here is to the bottleneck, the production of protein, and the big bottleneck in protein production is the animal. And if you can extract that from the process, you gain these efficiencies, which then afford these environmental benefits. And that's what's happening with us.

David Novak 13:51 

Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. The other thing that you're attacking, Ethan is addressing global resource constraints. And you know, how you doing that.

Ethan Brown 14:00 

So I would also be remiss to not bring up your alma mater, that, Missouri and the work you've done there. And so let me just take a second to do that. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about we wouldn't be having this conversation if it were not for that university. I just can't say enough good things about the people there and the values they have. The reason I brought that up in this context is that America has these terrific land grant universities, Missouri is one of them, university, Maryland and other one, I worked with both of them to form this company. And it's, I think, a really interesting outcome that two universities who have strong ag programs helped to develop a company that will, I think, bring the next revolution to agriculture in terms of making it more efficient, right. And so if you think about the efficiency of our system, we're using 99% Less water to produce a burger, right? We're using 93% Lesson land, right? So the benefits there are really quantifiable. And so our goal is then to make sure that we're not asking you as a consumer, going to KFC or going to Taco Bell, or going into any of these institutions to make a sacrifice, because we know how consumers are right, we have to continue to delight them. And that's why I do admire what Tesla has done, right, they've taken something as a social issue. And they've made it alluring. They've said, we're going to create cars, and you're going to want to drive, you're going to seek this out, we have to do that Beyond Meat. And I think we're on our way to doing that.

David Novak 15:38 

We learned that many times, you know, people do not want to compromise on taste. They don't, you know, they, you know, people want it all, they don't want to make the compromise. So you can talk about being more nutritious and, you know, affecting climate change and all that. But if it doesn't taste good, you know, people aren't going to

Ethan Brown 15:54 

eat it, you're not going to get the ticket in your hand to have the conversation you have you got to make it taste great. And that's okay. I mean, that's fine. Look, I mean, the original, this stone is, is a friend and one of our early investors. And years ago, when we were starting out, we should talk about this, that food is one of the, you know, original social media, right? It was what we all gather around to talk and meet and share our day and things of that nature. And so we want to enjoy it. And that's fine. We will fail if we don't delight the consumer, and we have to keep that front and center of everything we do.

David Novak 16:29 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, the other trend that you're talking about is improving animal welfare. You know, that's pretty self explanatory. Your cow but but give me your perspective on

Ethan Brown 16:38 

it. Well, I just think it's it's, you know, we've, we've innovated around so much in our life, and I love innovation, I'm very passionate about it. I think this is a story of American innovation. That's, that's as needed any, in the sense that we're taking something that we all think is a good, you know, we really enjoy that, that center of the plate protein. And we're trying to make it better. And so, you know, we're not doing this over telegram. We're not doing it over a landline. We're doing it over something that is eclipsed all of those. And that's the process of innovation. Nobody had to lambast or denigrate the landline to make the mobile phone popular, right. And so we don't really have to beat up on the old system, we just have to make something that's better. And so if you can create meat without using the animal that I think very few people would say, that's not a good idea. You know, like, let's, let's try to do it. And I think I think we can, and that then takes the moral question off the table. And that's something I'm very happy to do. You've got some

David Novak 17:45 

really altruistic things that you're trying to do here. Which one of these global trends do you think is most important that you just talked about? Is it climate change?

Ethan Brown 17:53 

Well, I can tell you where the consumer is, the consumer comes to us first over health, for sure. And then there's a halo that can develop around the fact that you're doing something great for your body, but also can be really good for for for the earth. But it's interesting. There's some demographic trends, right. So 40, and older, definitely health as a driver. But young people looking at the folks like Greta and others that are protesting over climate, they're coming to it first, because the environment now we have to always say like, we got to get taste first, right, we got to really delight the consumer. Second nutrition. People think that plant based eating is healthier, don't disappoint them, don't have a turnout, that there's something in there, that's not good for them, or that the, you know, the levels of X, Y, and Z, you know, are in excess or something. Make sure it really is healthier. And so we do a ton of work on that. And you know, we work with Stanford, we work with a bunch of different institutions are constantly looking at how do we make our products healthier and healthier? And so but but but but first and foremost, is that consumer coming after us for for health?

David Novak 19:05 

Now, of course, everyone today is concerned about infectious disease that is created from animals. And this has to make your products even more on trend. What are you hearing from consumers on that front?

Ethan Brown 19:18 

You do hear that and there have been some op eds written by particular some academics have written on that point. I think what's happening here is you have to look at the ratio. And I have a terrific chart which I sometimes show which is the ratio of humans to livestock on the surface. And as you grow that human population, and if that ratio holds or even increases, as the developing world becomes much more interested in eating animal protein, you are reaching very, very quickly the limits of what our ecosystem globally can handle, and what the biosphere can handle. You can't have infinite growth on a finite system. That's a pretty simple idea. But that's what we're trying to Do and so we have to somehow break that ratio, we have to somehow be able to feed the population without growing the livestock numbers, right? And in fact, dramatically reducing them. And so what you're seeing with some of these things is that we're we're bumping up against limits of what a ecosystem and biological system could handle. And so you're seeing whether it's bird flu, or what's happening here, you're starting to see those boundaries be be compromised.

David Novak 20:24 

Ethan, you talked about your why you started the company. And it seemed to be more of a process than than a aha moment. Did you have? Did you wake up one night and say, I'm gonna do this? And remember that aha moment or?

Ethan Brown 20:37 

No, though? You know, it's, you got to get uncomfortable about something, I think sometimes, and I started to get really uncomfortable this year, over a year. You know, I just I began to think there's something here in the sense of that you didn't need to use animal to build meat tonight knew about veggie burgers and things like that, that was never my interest. What I wanted to do was to try to figure out, and this is something I think has helped me in my career. And it's both a plus. And a minus, for me for sure, is that I will marinate in problems in terms of like, trying to figure them out, right? And so that can be really healthy when it's directed toward, you know, something that's positive, like work or if it can be, it can be unhealthy if it's ruminating about something, right. And so in the sense that I just started to think this isn't the right way to go forward, how do we do something different, and a year over a year, you know, I was in the fuel cell industry, and I was making great progress, as I mentioned, you know, or talked about having a great career, right? And but I just felt like there's an itch that I had to scratch. You know, really, when my kids were born, and I started to realize the food choices that they were going to have to make, I said, I gotta go do this, because I don't do it. I'm gonna regret it. And so it was that discomfort, really, that pushed me over the edge of the most.

David Novak 21:55 

I love the idea of people pursuing things because of just the fear of the loss potential that Yeah, well, you took the company public. And you know, you've had enormous success by anybody standard. You've, you know, obviously, you've achieved some tremendous personal wealth. But I know that you you live a relatively understated lifestyle. You You take Uber, when you go on market tours, you, you don't take the limos, and you actually, the last I heard is that you drive a 2016 Prius? What's keeping you out of the limos and Ferraris? How do you stay in grounded?

Ethan Brown 22:32 

So I do have to admit, I finally I finally did get a Tesla. But you know, I don't think I was just raised that way. I think, look, I was raised middle class. So I had no issues at all with with, you know, material comfort growing up, but very blessed in that way. And, you know, I look at your childhood of moving around, and just the incredible resilience and and I was very, very fortunate to, to have a middle class upbringing. But we were never like family with the nice cars or, or anything of that nature. And my dad being an academic, I think that that was kind of his approach. And, you know, look, I'll buy probably a lot of land, things like that, but it's just kind of who you are. And

David Novak 23:16 

well, that's great. It sounds like he just might be the Warren Buffett of the food industry. I met with Warren and he drives his Lincoln Continental and you know, he probably drives the Tesla down for all I

Ethan Brown 23:26 

tell you what he could do so so I love Buffett and so so it's funny, right? Because you wouldn't sort of the business school that I went to, I went to because of him. I applied to one business school. And then they asked me in the interview for the school, they said why do you want to come in and I really hadn't done my homework unfortunate. I just knew that, you know, I really I've read all Warren stuff, and I read all the candy reports and things like that and and I said, Wow, I want to what do we want to study? I said, Well, I want to study leadership. Like we don't have a leadership program was like, oh, no, not gonna get any here. And so the interview after that one fine. But then I get back to my mother's and I'm walking down I said, Ethan you know, the back your shorts on tucked in the back. I'm like, Man, I'm not getting and I should apply to more schools. And we thank God I got in and Buffett that whole principle that he has around, you know, simplicity I find interesting.

David Novak 24:17 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love Warren and I think you guys have a lot in common. I didn't know this until I started hearing about your company and reading about it. But But I understand you're targeting flexitarians I love that phrase. They did you coined that term itself, and what exactly is the flexitarian?

Ethan Brown 24:34 

So we didn't call it ourselves. But here's what it is. So 93% of the people at the nation's largest grocer that by the beyond burger are also putting animal protein in their cart. And that's really important to me in the sense that we're reaching a mainstream audience right? We never set out to return nice audience right. So we want the consumer that is in the main to be buying our products and that's why the relationships with them KFC etc, are so important, because that's where the mainstream consumer is. And that's where we need to be. And so flexitarian is someone who's using both animal protein and plant protein.

David Novak 25:09 

And your interestingly, your strategy says you don't say don't eat meat, you know, in what you've obviously taken a totally different strategy. And

Ethan Brown 25:18 

sure it gets back to that example. And, you know, I had a great opportunity to meet with, with Bill Ford. And recently, and, you know, I really admire what Henry Ford did around the automobile. And, you know, he didn't again, he didn't go out and say, you know, the horse is terrible, you know, horses. So all these bad things, you just said, I got a better way to get from A to B. Right. And we don't say don't use the phone. We just say we got a mobile phone that's better than a landline. Right? So I just don't think it's, it's, it's necessary to be negative, you look at all the great leaders in the world. You know, and I've listened to your podcasts, and they're great. And some of the traits that you hear, you're not just in your Tom Brady one, like who wouldn't listen that right. And, you know, it's that positivity. It's, it's like, you can be hard on yourself, you can be so hard on yourself, but like, don't, don't walk around being negative, right. And so we just don't carry that with us. You know, we say we think we have a better solution.

David Novak 26:14 

When I heard about KFC launching a plant based chicken product in Atlanta. And I know, there were just lines just people trying to get into they just had to try it. So I called Kevin Hochman, the president of KFC in the r&d people, I said, Can you give me a product showing on this, you know, so I went to the KFC restaurant Support Center, and I tried your first product, and I had to tell you eat and I just didn't really like it. For me, then I tried your latest version, and it had all the characteristics of whole muscle chicken, I thought it was really, really so much better. And this happened within a span of like six months. Are you making that kind of rapid technology gains across all the meat categories?

Ethan Brown 26:55 

Yes, we are. And I'm the first one to be totally dissatisfied with our products. Right? So, you know, in the process for me is one that's difficult in the sense that what's on the shelves today, I think is good. But what we have in our labs is so much better, and I can't wait to get it out to the consumer. And then the challenges it takes takes a while to do that. Right. But yes, I think that rapid iteration is very common within our within our company. And and what we we do is we have a very structured approach that we just called the Beyond Meat rapid and relentless innovation program. And it's that idea that if you marinate in the issue if you can get yourself lost in the issue, if you can, and there's a great books on this. And you know, it's just if you're leading a company, set aside time to read, because it just refreshes your perspective on things, and you can gain so much insight. So one of the books that made a big impact on me is insisting on the impossible, and it's about Edwin Land, and the work that he did around Polaroid, and how to create that environment where people can actually get lost and what they might forget to eat. And they might forget to shower because they're so intensely focused on how do I make this product better, right. And if you can bring that intensity every single day, right, you'll see incredible progress. Now if you're caught up in Gantt charts and spreadsheets all the time and long processes and one of the things that I think is shocking to people when they come here is they'll come and they'll say is gonna take us two months to do this, like, Well, how do you do in two weeks? And we're serious? And we're and we'll say okay, and they said, well, we can't so what resources do you need? Right? And they said, Well, I you know, go get them. Right. And that's the kind of approach we have

David Novak 28:32 

here. Yeah, that's great. Michael land you know, do did create Polaroid, you know, it did it, you know, a great idea. But it didn't really flourish to be honest with you know, how are you going about the process of building a sustainable growth company and a lot of times people have ideas and boom, you know, doesn't really take off and sustain itself. So you don't you don't really want to be a Polaroid. No,

Ethan Brown 28:53 

correct and and so there's there's a lot of other examples and this is great book recently, which I've become friends with the author by again, I'm Safi Bacall. It's called loon shots. And part of the process of of just staying ahead and leading and creating a category is to have a healthy sense of, to be terrified, right to be paranoid. You know, how do you stay? And that's been waiting my whole life. How do you? How do you stay ahead? Right? How do you and I don't know where it comes from? Some people have some people don't but like, you know, I have that fear. Right? Of, of not delivering on what I'm trying to do. Right. And and if you carry that with you, right, you'll you'll be successful if you work hard enough, right? I mean, obviously some capability but I think with cases like Blockbuster and you know, the show many examples, skeletons that are that just didn't react and adapt. I don't care about the technology we use. I'm agnostic, not an engineer. So if what we're doing isn't working as well as something else out there. I will throw it in the trash and I will get the best approach possible, right? So you got to be agnostic and not fall in love with a particular approach. Right? So if you want to, if you want have the best picture in the world, you shouldn't care whether it comes on a film that you have to shake or something as digital, you should be focused on that Best Picture.

David Novak 30:14 

Yeah, that's great. You know, the the KFC r&d team led by Vijay Sukumar. You know, when I met with them, they were blown away by your research team, they said you had over 100 scientists, you probably have more than that. Okay. But your your your head of r&d is from Iran, you have over 50 PhDs, you've got leaders from Vietnam, India, how do you lead such a diverse and high IQ group of people? What kind of skills does it take for you to have to work with a scientists who stereotypically are head down? Look it in their petri dish? Yeah.

Ethan Brown 30:50 

So it's funny, I mean, first of all, it gets to some of the things that you've written a lot about is respect respect for people, you know, and I really respect them. And I think they respect me, and it's a, it's a dance, you know, I mean, we're, I'm pushing them so hard, and they're, they're pushing back. And, and we're, but we're so committed to this objective. And so many of them came out of biomedical where they're working on, you know, trying to treat cancer, for example. And now they feel, you know, if you think about, you know, Let food be thy medicine. Now, this is a way of hopefully, helping people live healthier lives. And so, but it was fun to have been funny things along the way, I once hung up a lot. When I was in graduate school, there was a poster in one of our computer rooms that was loved it, it was a picture of a apartment building, probably in New York, Chicago Senate that there was a one light on with one person sitting in front of their computer. And it just said very simply underneath somewhere, someone is working harder to your idea than you are. Right. And I couldn't find the poster. So I just got some canvas, and I had it typed out on the canvas, said that quote, and I hung it in our innovation lab. Go ahead of innovation at that point. cannot sit you know, either a lot of people are asking who's working harder than us? I said, No, no, it's like a, like a metaphor. You know, it's like a just a way to stay hungry. Is it? No, okay. Okay. It came back, came back and said, Isn't they still kind of want to know, they're kind of like, insulted that you think there's someone out there who's working harder? I said, No, think about it this way. Think about it seems like it was something we'll be hanging in a locker room. He said, a lot of these guys have never been in a locker room. They said, Okay, I'll take it down. But, so I took that down, but it's just,

David Novak 32:38 

I think I'm gonna put it up.

Ethan Brown 32:40 

It's a great quote. And so so it's that mentality, you know, we just have fun together, we work so hard to get such respect for their intellect. And I

David Novak 32:48 

know you're a big believer in that fail fast mindset, you know, how do you really drive that deep in your culture?

Ethan Brown 32:56 

Shoot, personal, personal experience, you know, I've failed a lot of things. And so I know that it's okay to fail. I think it's actually people who have failed, are better leaders, you know, they really are. So, I think it's, it's, it's about effort, you know, if you're, if you're putting in the effort, and you're using the very best of your capabilities to try to do something and you fail, God bless you, if you're not putting forth the effort, and you can't do something, you'll be very uncomfortable here. You know, and that's, that's the, that's the kind of culture we have. And so as long as someone, if you see them grinding and working, and they make a mistake, fine. Or if they are so afraid of failing that they bury you in spreadsheets, and analysis and everything else where you just aren't willing, you can't move, right, they're also not going to do well here. So it's a culture that we put a lot of emphasis on speed, we'll reward risk taking, and we're okay with failing,

David Novak 33:56 

you obviously, believe that culture is critical to your success. Are you doing anything really different on that front? Are you trying to drive a behavior that you're not going to see in most companies?

Ethan Brown 34:09 

You know, I think it's intensity. Its intensity, is I think, intensity, respect for one another, accountability, ownership, all those things are really important here. It's also a sense, it's a privilege to work here. I know, I feel blessed to be doing what I'm doing. Like I really do. And I feel lucky. And I think I want other people here to feel that way too. It's a special place to be and I want them to carry that with them. I don't know that every company feels that way. And

David Novak 34:44 

you're a tremendous learner. Obviously, it's coming through so clear in his conversation. You know, a friend of mine told me that you're a big fan of the gut milk marketing, and that you actually hired the person who created and I was thinking about this, you know, that was a long time. to go this, this person must definitely be a senior citizen. Is this true that did you hire that person? And what's your thinking behind it? He's

Ethan Brown 35:07 

good friend of mine, Jeff Manning. And so he was on the California milk board and was wrote the original brief I think for for the advertising firm that did that, which I think was quite Nick Kennedy, I think. And so, yeah, so he and I work together for years, and we're still still close. I just, I was amazed, as a young person, that you could go into schools and gyms and, and that a particular protein could advertise directly to children in that in that in that environment. And so I wanted to learn about that program. But it also had an important element that was really vital to how we positioned our company, it was positive, right. And so, you know, I used to get in arguments with marketers who would say, you really need to bring out some clinical nutritionist to tell people about how healthy this is, you need to market directly to mom in a really clear way. And I said, No, I want to use athletes to do it. And so, you know, first of all, you know, this, there's just you go to any marketing, you go to Kellogg or something like that the business school, they'll say we traditional paradigms, mom is shopping supermarket, so you should tailor all your marketing to her. And I said, Well, I don't know, I had this really distinct experience when I was a kid where my mom was walking in the supermarket. And I was with her and our football coach, and I wasn't a great football player, I was very thin. And but I played, but my brother was was pretty big. And he matured earlier than I did. And everything is older than me. And he walked by he said, you know, you you serve in those two boys steak, you know, something like that, too. I think exactly those words. Nice. You know, he's sort of genuine mom. And that made a big impression on me that type of thinking that, that there's this link between animal protein and masculinity. And that if you don't consume animal protein, somehow you're less masculine. Right. And so I wanted to attack that at its core. And so I wanted to use the Got Milk campaign as a model that said, look, let's help people understand that it's the amino acids they're consuming and the protein itself, not the origin. Right? That is important. Right? And so I wanted the very best performing athletes in the world to start using our product, and then go tell people about it. And then you know, what that does that arms mom with the information she needs to get the rest of the table on board. So when she brings home a plant based burger, plant based meat, she's not being, you know, mocked by your children or by the husband, she is has the tools she needs to get the rest of the family on board. And so that was a very deliberate approach. And I think it's worked. You know, you want to inspire people, you don't want to preach at them.

David Novak 37:51 

Yeah, that's great. I wanted to ask you, thank you behind having Kyrie Irving and then Lindsey Vonn, and even have Snoop Dogg. You've got investors like Leonardo DiCaprio. You're obviously big into leveraging these big names, or they come into you these people I used to work at Pepsi, they cost us a fortune to get them, are they How are you signing these people up as brand ambassadors? Yeah,

Ethan Brown 38:15 

so there, many of them are investors, first and foremost. And so that that really helps right there rowing in the same direction with us. And we have a woman who I'm good friends with, who also works here called Beth Moscowitz, who is just a tremendous connector of people and, and many of them have come through through her and we just really try to create a culture where we're business, we're sure, we're gonna create a great return for our shareholders. But we're also out to accomplish something that's really important. So take us on to thing I said a couple days ago with with Chris Paul, take Chris's example. So Chris Paul, you know, perennial, all star, NBA player, he's in a 17, season 2020, all star game, he gets a lob Dunk from, from Russell Westbrook. Chris has maybe six to right, he's 35. Right? And he's getting up in the air and just throwing that ball down. After the game, they asked what how are you able to do that. And he's one of the things he talks about as he switched to a plant based diet. And that cuts down on the inflammation in his knees, right. And so, you know, the benefits to athletes for using it. But by the way, that reduction in inflammation is not just good for Chris, it's good. If you're 60, if you're 70, and you're maybe battling with, you know, arthritis or with heart disease, or so many of the diseases that we think are separate are actually related in some of the things that tie them together have to do with inflammation. And so animal protein, it's well understood now in the middle community that helps to keep inflammation down. Right. So if you're Chris not only going to perform better, but hey, by the way, for his folks, you know, this might be a better product for them. Right. So there's benefits for him not only professionally but also in his community.

David Novak 39:58 

Hey, Ethan, you are turning me into a flexitarian. I used to work at Pepsi. And we we had this intense rivalry with Coke, you know, and it looks to me like you'd have the makings of this potentially happening with this company called Impossible Foods. How do you view them as a competitor and what makes you different?

Ethan Brown 40:19 

You know, this to your competitor to you know, competition is great. And it's even better when you're winning. But that is so true. It's a lot of fun. People are like, Oh, do you hate but now, I mean, they're good company. They're working hard. They're there, they got a lot of good people, they're trying to do the right thing. But there is a big difference. The difference is around this. So I started coming 2009. And didn't deal with venture money to begin with took several years to get that two and a half rather. And, and so a lot of times, we just had to rely on revenue to keep the doors open everything else. And so I was in the stores talking to customers all the time. And one of the things that became really apparent was that people did not want GMOs in their product. They didn't want anything artificial in their product, right? And so you got to think about the mindset of homosapien, right? evolving. And there's some great literature on this evolving, we were very conservative about what we're willing to put in our mouths, right? Because mistakes would kill us. And we carry that conservatism today. So I don't want to ask any family in America or anywhere else, to experiment with their family and their kids on somebody who's never been in the food supply. So I said, Alright, we're just not going to use genetic modification, right? I believe that there's everything in nature that we need to build matrix and plant it if you if you care enough and work hard enough to find it. And that's what we're doing. It's a massive discovery. It's a it's a search throughout the plant kingdom to find all the elements we need. But people so people want to eat healthier, they also want to eat like their grandparents, because there's conservatism. And so the big difference between the two companies, right, is that we've decided not to use genetic modification. And they are using it not bad, they're using it. Not a problem. They're using it. But that's not what we're doing. And we think that's a better long term bet on where the consumer is going.

David Novak 42:06 

And then another competitor you have right now, it's just the meat industry, there's really taken some real cheap shots at Yeah, how do you as a competitor deal with that?

Ethan Brown 42:14 

So I personally don't like that, obviously, you know, I listened to some of your podcasts. And, you know, it's hard to beat up in the press and have people take stuff out on you, and you got to just develop thick skin. But what bothers me the most about that is, you know, we talked about our farm, up in Maryland, and on either side of that farm, or people that are either currently or have raised beef cattle, you know, and I have good relationships with them. And, you know, what's great about this country anyway, is that, you know, if there's a topic you don't wanna talk about, you can talk about sports, you can talk about politics, you know, and so I just don't have to go there with them. And so for people to I liked them, and I want to be able to turn and have nice relationships and and so I'm not somebody who's antagonistic toward the meat industry, you know, I don't think it's necessary to be so. And so you've seen me forge relationships with them. We had a partnership with Tyson. I know John Tyson. Personally. I think it's a shame, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it myself.

David Novak 43:20 

Yeah. You know, you know, right. Now, I know you're you talked about your passion of totally replicating the tastes and characteristics of meat. What I know, right now, because of scale. In other words, you have a huge cost disadvantage. At least I'm doing supposing that is, is that something that you're going to have to live with? Or what do you see as your opportunity and strategy on that front?

Ethan Brown 43:42 

I really appreciate you asking that question. Because it's a big passion for me. We could not be more expensive than animal protein. It doesn't make any sense right? So we're hearing me talk about this little bit of a micro economics textbooks bottleneck comes out of production, you get more efficient and lower cost, etc. Right? So we've taken the biggest bottleneck there is in the history of agriculture out of the system, right and again, we're not perfect we're not getting you know, we're not there yet. We'll get there to the point where indistinguishable than the chicken they will make two years from now from KFC if we're lucky enough to still work with them will be much better than what we're making today. Even though the one today is pretty good. Right? So we'll get closer and closer but the the issue is scale. Right? And so there's no material obstacle to us underpricing animal protein, so I made a commitment a year ago that we would underprice animal protein at least one of our categories of beef pork and poultry. And and we'll do that and then ultimately be able to underprice in each category. Maybe not every single cut but the vast majority of them and, and that's going to be exciting day because if we get the the texture right, we get that satiating taste and experience right. And then we drop the price below animal protein there very few consumers would be like yeah, I'm still not gonna do that.

David Novak 44:53 

I would say so when you when you can have equal product quality, and when on prem went on price, that's it. Pretty good equation, it works for a lot, a lot of people, you know, how would you describe your management style?

Ethan Brown 45:06 

You know, it's interesting. I'm definitely more entrepreneur than I am kind of a CEO you'd bring in from the outside. I think management comes down to character, and, and personality and behavior traits, right. And so when you work with me, you get who I am, there's not a management style necessarily is different from who I am as a person. So I think you'll get a lot of loyalty from me, you'll get a lot of intensity, a lot of ambition. You know, I'll I really do is if you'll say it all the time. But I really do try to hire people that are a lot better than me at what they do. And I've done that. And that has made all the difference in the world for me and surround myself with people that are better at what they do than I could be. And so my board is full of very competent people, Mickey, some are talking about a great example, right? He's extraordinary guy, he knows the field a lot better than I do. And I gotta give him the freedom to do it. And that's what I do.

David Novak 46:08 

Yeah, that's Mickey pant used to be the CEO of Yum, China. Terrific. Exactly, that I actually did a podcast with the chicken listen to, you know, Ethan, you, you've been described. And you just mentioned it ambitious, you know, you've been described as massively ambitious, you know, by one of your former bosses, you know, what's behind your ambition?

Ethan Brown 46:29 

I think it's the, it's the desire to try to be of service to a issue that is so important. And once you kind of get a taste of the fact that you can do it, it becomes enthralling, you know, that you could actually get something done that's so meaningful, right. And so I just want to try to do it. And I think I've been very blessed as a child. And I wasn't always successful, right? I, you know, I wasn't very focused at school, when I was young, I wasn't till I was in college, that I became very academically interested. But I was surrounded by people, my father is a good example. I'd come downstairs early in the morning to get ready for school, you know, be somebody's earliest 530 or something. And it would sound like it's raining in my basement. And so I'd go down there, and he was just banging away on this IBM computer, writing whatever book he was writing or whatever. And, and then I might my grandfather's are both very, you know, as I mentioned, the minister mother was an entrepreneur and a publisher. I have great role models around me that were successful people and it were leaders. And I think that helped me a lot to say, I wasn't gonna check the box in life, I was gonna try to go out and do something that was meaningful. But I will say this, I've listened to some of your podcasts, I am not someone who was dreaming of being a leader, I am much more reluctant leader, I think of someone who is has found a problem that they feel enough passionate about that they want to solve, that they've been able to articulate a path that other people are willing to follow with them and join them in. But I'm not someone who was sort of dreaming as a kid of being a leader. That wasn't me.

David Novak 48:12 

Now, you are a big time leader. You're a CEO of a publicly traded company. How are you going about getting better at that?

Ethan Brown 48:22 

Through discussions like this, and reading? You know, I think just learning from others, I very much agree with the statement that success leaves clues. You know, to be humble, I mean, just be humble. Like, there's a ton that I can learn. And we're all mix of confidence and insecurity. And, you know, it's okay to be insecure about things and to try to address them. And so, so much of the work of being a better leader at this point is now internal work, you know, how do I work through issues within myself that I want to address, right? And the better that I can do that the more effective I'll be as a leader, I'm less into management books, and I'm more into that process of better understanding why I make the decisions that I make, why I do what I do, so that I can improve on weaknesses, and be a better person and be a better leader as a result. You know, talking about books, there's a book by Robert Sapolsky called behave it's really a great frigging long and and it's too long, but it's about why we do what we do from a neurological perspective and it's fascinating and so for me, the next stage of leadership is better understanding human behavior, including my own

David Novak 49:34 

with this whole Coronavirus. You know, a lot of people have had time to self reflect. Have you been able to have the time to have more self reflection through this?

Ethan Brown 49:44 

I have it hasn't been the work hasn't slowed down. I think the Coronavirus obviously, just in a horrific, awful tragedy and not enough to be cannot be just, you know, and just the loss of life is just incredible. One of the things that come up It is the world has slowed down and stopped almost right. And so you'll see things happening that are extraordinary in the sense of I live in Los Angeles, and I can see the Santa Monica Mountains in a way I've never seen them before. They're so clear. Same thing happened in Himalayas, right climate, greenhouse gas emissions have plummeted. traffic fatalities have plummeted. Right. So there's things that are happening here that we have to take from this and try to carry forward even as we restore our economy. And so yes, you know, for me, it isn't so much that work is slow down, it hasn't. It's that that stuff at night that you were doing his apparent running around to practices and things like that, that has stopped. Right. And so I have had more time to reflect and and that's been enjoyable

David Novak 50:44 

as a public company, your your company came out and just the stock went through the roof, and then it really dropped dramatically. You've had tremendous volatility in the stock price. How has that impacted you? And and how do you keep yourself up during those valleys?

Ethan Brown 51:01 

Yeah, it's a great question. At first, it did bother me. But you begin to and you know, this better than anybody begin to realize that they're just sometimes not rational reactions to things in the market. And the more you can understand that, the more you just focus on the long term nature of your business. And I really do the businesses that I admire, are those ones that have carried forward that long term perspective. And so Amazon would be a great example, right? You know, we have to steel ourselves against trying to satisfy quarterly targets. And we have to think about the long term. If we do that we can be a massive global protein company. If we don't, we'll be one of many players.

David Novak 51:42 

You know, I used to meet with Warren Buffett every every year in Omaha, it's amazing. We'd always have lunch at KFC. And he said, Put your ego and your business performance, not your stock price. And I just had a very wise counsel. You know, I remember early on in my days at Yum, I made a stupid mistake of saying we were yum.com. And we bombed, we went down like that the companies do. So, you know, I learned that, you know, you know, I want to ask you one of the things just competition, your your Impossible Foods CEO, he's pretty bombastic, he makes his big claims that the plant based products are gonna outsell meat by 2035. You know, how do you feel about a statement like that?

Ethan Brown 52:27 

I don't make them. I don't I don't think it's a good idea. First of all, I think humility is really important part of leadership. And, and I hope that I am a humble person. You know, that's how I feel about myself in terms of, you know, I'm hard on myself. Like, it's funny. The other day, a colleague of mine didn't like the way I had done something into very upfront and blunt about it. And it was a performance issue wasn't like, but, and I agreed, but she was so worried about letting me know. And I said, if you only knew what I already thought about what I did, you wouldn't even worry about it, you know, like so. So just that, you know, being humble and realizing that you're making you make a lot of mistakes, stuff like that is really important. So first of all, just stay away from statements like that. Second isn't tokenistic? I don't want to be antagonistic. When I work with Kevin and Andrea at KFC and, and others, David, I want them to be so successful in what we're doing. I want them to succeed. And McDonald's, I've talked very at length about this, you know, I want these companies to be super successful in partnership. And so let's just focus on that. Let's just focus on on on, can we provide a healthy product for consumers, and do so in a way that everybody wins? That seems to be the right focus?

David Novak 53:53 

You know, one of the things I've just started doing is just to have a little fun at the end of these conversations with a little lightning round. Okay, you know, I've had a blast already with this conversation, but I want to do just a real quick lightning round of q&a. Okay, sure. Are you ready for this?

Unknown Speaker 54:07 

I'll try. Okay,

David Novak 54:09 

what three words best describe you?

Ethan Brown 54:12 

I think passionate. Loyal. And, you know, I think this thing about being intellectually thorough, I really try to get to the bottom of things.

David Novak 54:24 

Okay, what's your biggest pet peeve?

Ethan Brown 54:26 

Oh, lack of effort.

David Novak 54:27 

What's your favorite movie and why?

Ethan Brown 54:29 

Oh, Hoosiers, I will cry every time I watch you

David Novak 54:33 

need to share in fact about you that few people would know.

Ethan Brown 54:39 

I'm trying to use this time during the COVID 19 crisis to learn piano.

David Novak 54:47 

If you could trade places with one person for a day, who would it be and why?

Ethan Brown 54:51 

You know, it'd be one of my children so that I could better understand how they view the world and how I can help them.

David Novak 54:57 

And I have to ask you this. What do you have Yeah.

Ethan Brown 55:03 

How long do you have?

David Novak 55:06 

Oh, that answers that question.

Ethan Brown 55:08 

I love animals that have a lot. You know, you

David Novak 55:11 

think you're an up and coming company. And so what do you think are the three most important characteristics you look for and, and the people that you want to really grow your business?

Ethan Brown 55:21 

Sure. I think it's that that shining capability, you know, it's very clear to me that this person is special and can do things that maybe others wouldn't be able to do. So you try to find that that characteristic, but it's worth nothing. If there's not that work ethic. I will just all day long, I will bet on a work ethic. I mean, absolutely. And then just character, right, you know, are they going to do the right thing?

David Novak 55:47 

You mentioned failure, little earlier, and you're one of these guys, you look at him, and you've been so successful? What would be your epic fail? If you have one that really stands out? And your your career? Yeah, sure.

Ethan Brown 55:59 

I felt a lot. I mean, I was fired by my board. When I was like, 27. Four, we had a disagreement over something. And I didn't handle it. Well, I was I felt I was right. And I just sort of told them that I was right. And that, you know, here are the issues of the way they were managing. And they said, You're you're walking papers, that was a mistake. It was a failure. But there are other things when I've made mistakes, and failed for sure.

David Novak 56:30 

No. So what would you see as your biggest success in business?

Ethan Brown 56:33 

For me, the thing that these partnerships that we're having with these QSR ours, including KFC are so important to me, because it's it's where we're going to meet the consumer. And so I put those right there.

David Novak 56:46 

Yeah, you know, it's interesting that Pepsi and Coke built their businesses, you know, in the restaurants, getting people to try the product, you know, the same way. So that's, you're going about it the same way. And I have to ask you one other question, which is, you know, can you share a little bit about your family and how you're striving to keep things in balance? Because you're obviously you do have that intensity?

Ethan Brown 57:07 

Yeah. That's, that's one that's interesting. I mean, I, as important as all this work is, to me, I'm pretty typical in the sense of that, you know, my family still more important to me, for sure. You know, and if I had to choose between the two big my family and, you know, I've always viewed my kids as ice cream cones, you know, they're there, they're going to melty better enjoy them, right, because they're going to be up and gone. And, and, and so the time is now to enjoy them. And so I do try to be really involved in their lives. And generally, through sports, you know, my son is a very active basketball player, my daughter's a volleyball player. And so it's through things like that. But even with this effort over this, this period to learn a new instrument, you know, I bought my my son a saxophone, and my daughter guitar. just tried to be with them. Probably best because, man, it goes so fast.

David Novak 58:04 

Yeah, that's, that's just great. You know, I have to tell you that I played the saxophone for about six months, before I decided I wanted to be a major league baseball player. And that didn't happen.

Ethan Brown 58:16 

Yeah, well, I wanted to be at some point of battle player. And I didn't go that far.

David Novak 58:21 

But Ethan, I have to tell you, I said at the top, that you are an incredible human being and more than a you are a really, really special person, one of those people that you look for, you know, that does the shine. And, you know, I've got one more question for you. Sure. You look out and you see beyond me, what's your future back vision?

Ethan Brown 58:41 

Sure. And so just before I answer that, I also just I so admire, and I'm not just saying this to say it, but that the journey you've taken in your life is one that's remarkable to me. And the, the, you know, I the work you're doing to create better leaders today, you know, it's not just going to be listened to by leaders, like my kids are gonna listen to your podcast because of the value of the conversations you're having. And so I just really, I right back at you. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate. So the future for Beyond Meat, global protein company, for sure. You know, active, very active in Asia, very active in Europe, very active here in United States, and decoupling meat from animals so that we can continue to enjoy the dishes and the meals and experiences that we have to do so in a way that maybe it's better for our bodies and better for the earth.

David Novak 59:36 

Well, even if there's one guy in the world that can make that happen. You know, I always say she'll be a leader and I'll show you a great business. No doubt in my mind. You are the leader. So thank you, once again, thank you and on this show.

Ethan Brown 59:49 

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it's a real honor

David Novak 1:00:00 

Well, I know you can tell from this conversation with Ethan, the Beyond Meat is into innovation and continuous improvement. And believe me, he and his team are constantly trying to crack the code, you know, and getting ready for this podcast, I actually went to the KFC test kitchens. And I had them prepare for me the original chicken Patty that they put together with Beyond Meat and the one that they have now. And I have to tell you, the improvement wasn't just incremental, it was Quantum. And it just goes to show that what Ethan is working on with his team, it's gonna happen, and he's going to do it, because you saw the passion that he has. Now, you and I both know, huge improvement, like what's happening beyond me just doesn't happen. It's a result of an incredible team and an incredible leader. And I'm really struck by how plugged in Ethan is to His purpose is the reason he's pushing his team's timelines and not letting them get buried in spreadsheets. It's building a culture of intelligent people who feel empowered to take risk. And that purpose is the force behind his relentless positivity, and how he approaches his messaging, his partnerships, and even competition. So are you ready for a little coaching? Let's go. This week as a part of your weekly personal development plan, I want you to tap into the power of purpose for yourself in these two steps. First, think is something you're not satisfied with. Maybe it's related to your company, or your own development, or your community or the world at large, then I want you to connect with the why, why you really want it to be better. When we answer that question, honestly, we tap into the power of purpose. And that's what will help us lead our teams and ourselves to accomplish amazing things. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is that great leaders tap into the power of purpose. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you'll become the best leader you can be