David Novak 0:03 

Hey everybody, welcome to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple, you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. And today's guest is Evan Spiegel, the CEO of snap. And I think everybody would agree the tech world is driven by innovation. And snap with products like Snapchat is setting a gold standard for getting new ideas to take off around the very simple idea of reinventing the camera. Now, this is a company that Evan co founded in 2011, when he was a student at Stanford. But you know, there's a lot more to snap success than just having good ideas. They've created a culture where those ideas can actually develop. They have been communicated those ideas internally and to shareholders and most importantly, they have actually turned those ideas into reality. Now, of course, you may not be out to build Silicon Valley's next big thing. But every leader needs to know how to create a culture where Big Ideas thrive and become reality. So if you want to understand the secrets of fostering innovation, then keep listening. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Evan Spiegel?

You got to tell me, you know, what were your emotions like that the day you rang the bell at the New York Stock Exchange, and became a 26 year old public company CEO?

Evan Spiegel 1:41 

Oh, my goodness. Well, you know, I'll never forget, one of my friends gave me advice and absolutely not have confetti. You know, whenever you make a mistake, they'll put up this whole photo of you with all the confetti, newspapers, you don't want the confetti. So all I really remember, you know, Bobby, and I rang the bell, I remember feeling really proud of our team, and also just the immense pressure, you know, to get back to work. So Bobby and I actually rang the bell. And then we went over to the trading desk at Goldman Sachs to see them open the stock. And then we flew home to LA to get back to work. So

David Novak 2:14 

get back at it now. That's great. You know, Evan, some say that you're redefining the camera other say you're a social media company, other say you're in the entertainment business? How do you think we should think about the kind of business that you're really in?

Evan Spiegel 2:30 

That's such a great question. You our platform is so large, now that it touches a lot of those areas that you mentioned, whether it's you know, things like social media, or in or, you know, entertainment augmented reality, but at the core of our services, this camera, and when you open the Snapchat application, it opens into the camera. And the most important insight that we've had in creating our business is the changing role of the camera in people's lives. Because today, the cameras in everyone's pocket on their smartphone. And rather than using this big, bulky hardware camera, once every week, or once every month, or something like that people are now using their camera every day all day long to talk. And so there's been this huge transition over the last 10 years where cameras are now being used for communication, and not just saving things or storing memories. And the next big transition, the thing we're really excited about is the camera going from being away to talk to a way to experience the world. And that's going to happen through augmented reality. And this idea that the camera can help overlay computing on the world around you. And so over time, our cameras definitely expanded a lot, you know, we have this communications product, but we also have the ability for people to watch content on our platform or play games, or even use a map that shows where their friends are and what their friends are up to. So there's really high frequency of engagement around our camera, and the way people are using it to talk has also helped us get into other lines of business.

David Novak 3:46 

So you really have a broad frame of reference for your business that gives you all kinds of runway, but I want to take you back, you know it I'm sorry, I have to do this, because I'm sure you've told the story at least a million times. But how did you create the brand?

Evan Spiegel 4:00 

Gosh, what a great question. So you know, Bobby and I lived across the hall from each other in college. And he was a brilliant programmer. He was studying mathematical and computational science, which is harder than just computational science, because the layers and all these complex that's above my paygrade might do. And I was busy making the T shirts and stuff for all the different organizations on campus. And so I was really passionate about graphic design. And I was, you know, a design major. And Bobby was working on computer science. And we just became friends. We lived across the hall from each other. And, you know, we both had jobs at the time I was working at into it. And you know, Bobby was doing some coding and he and I both really just wanted to create our own thing. And so we started working together on this project called Future freshmen which was designed to help people get into college so we felt like students, the college application process was really confusing. There were all these things to keep track of. So if we just made a big piece of software to handle all of it for you, it make it easier. And so we spent like a year or a year and a half trying to build this really sophisticated piece of software to help kids apply to college. And it turns out, nobody used it, which was especially depressing because we both had younger siblings who were applying to college at the time, and they didn't touch it. And so we were like, oh, you know, our case study of two, in the form of our siblings did not necessarily find the product very helpful. And so even though we'd invested all this time into it, we were really left trying to figure out what to do next. And around that time, we experimented with a bunch of different projects. And one of them, you know, was was called PiccaBoo, at the time, which was this idea to send disappearing photos. And, you know, I presented it to my design class, and we started working on, you know, a prototype version of the app. And, you know, as we were playing with it, and using it with our friends, we just realized how fun it was to send photos back and forth. And people didn't care so much that the photos disappeared, you know, that was a part of it, because it made sending photos more like talking, you know, and just the way most conversations, you know, aren't recorded. But But really, we saw how fun it was to send photos back and forth all day long. We started using with our friends, and ultimately, you know, stayed in my dad's house that summer worked on it some more. And, you know, over time it started growing.

David Novak 6:11 

So it was pick itself hit, you know, you had to change the name. Was that a big setback for you? I mean, you know, when you think back on that when you lost that name, was this, like, oh, my gosh, or was it a new opportunity? You know,

Evan Spiegel 6:24 

so funny, you said that I think we got like some cease and desist letter from another company called PiccaBoo, which was actually a tremendous gift. because it allowed us to create the name Snapchat, I still have a piece of paper where I'm like, trying to brainstorm a new name, you know, and it's like, photo sharing, like, you know, picture talking like Snapchat. And I think, you know, when we settled on Snapchat, we just couldn't imagine that there were no other companies out there without name yet, you know, the website was available all this stuff. So we were so excited. You know, nowadays, it's so hard to find a find a website because everyone's thought of everything.

David Novak 6:56 

Yeah, well, Snapchat is just like one of the great brand names of all time, it just, it says it all, you know, what was it, Evan, that really made Snapchat take off?

Evan Spiegel 7:05 

Oh, gosh. You know, it's hard to pinpoint one thing, but I think the thing that really clicked was that young people just started using it, you know, in school and with their friends to talk, especially because sending photos via text message at that time was really slow. And it also is pretty expensive. So you know, it cost like 50 cents to send a photo and it takes like a minute for it to upload. And so we really focused on making Snapchat really, really fast. And so it was the fastest way to send a photo. And I think that speed, you know, and how much fun it was to send photos back and forth with friends is really what you know, made it catch on and start growing.

David Novak 7:42 

Yeah, I read where you have like a trillion and a half snaps a year, which is more than any other platform and any kind of media, which is absolutely amazing. And, and you you were like the absolute rage of technology, and I understand it that Mark Zuckerberg actually came to you and offered you $3 billion dollars. And then he came back and offered you bore and then it's rumored that Google offered you $30 billion. I don't know if these numbers get out of control sometimes. But how in the world, you have this opportunity to cash in, make all this money? How did you muster up the courage to say, No, you had a sure thing?

Evan Spiegel 8:21 

Well, I think for us, the joy has always been you know, working together and building really cool stuff. And you know, for Bobby and I, we just love the team that we have and the product that we get to work on in this amazing community of like 200 million people who use our product every day that we get to serve. And that for us is what's really motivating and inspiring. And so we never wanted to give that up. And we wanted to be able to pursue this this vision. Of course, there's a lot of, I think, you know, we also understand we have a fiduciary responsibility. So, you know, we took the decision really seriously and talked with our board about it. But ultimately, we just saw this huge opportunity to continue growing the business and also just do what we

David Novak 8:59 

love. You know, I was thinking about this. And so I had to ask you this, you know, did you have this light switch go off in your head that said, hey, you know what, I want to really build one of the world's great companies.

Evan Spiegel 9:12 

Gosh, not not really, I mean, we were more just having so much fun doing what we were doing. It wasn't really about building like a, you know, the some some big company or something we just really loved the product. And, you know, I think one thing that that's always been unique is our product has had really different values than other you know, technology companies or social media companies. We've never had like public likes and comments. We've always really focused on people feeling comfortable expressing themselves and so some of our concern was that you know, if we sold our company that we wouldn't be able to operate the product, you know, really in line with our values and that's always been something that's important to us, but you know, really we just enjoy what we do. You know, that's that's the motivation.

David Novak 9:51 

That's the best thing of all is get up and go to work doing something you love, you know, you know, so you go public, the stock absolutely go was nuts, you know, and then you redesign the product. And then the stock drops. I think like 80% of the world now writes you off as some dummy that could have sold the company for billions and, you know, unpack that experience for us. So well, what was that like?

Evan Spiegel 10:19 

Well, I think there are, let's say, there are positives and negatives to being held accountable in the public markets, I did not fully appreciate the short term nature of going public. And you know, before we went public, I want to talk to a bunch of CEOs around public companies or taking companies public and ask them for advice and things like that. And, you know, they really reiterated, you know, this view that the public markets are very short term oriented, it's really difficult to make long term decisions. And I was like, you know, what, I'm sure it'll be fine. Like, we've been running the company, I don't know, for however long, maybe it's been six or seven years. At that time, it's like, I'm sure it'll be okay. And I really did not fully understand and appreciates, you know, the way that the public markets work and how they think about like the future value of, of your business. And so we just continue to make decisions, just like we were a private company, because that we felt like that was the right thing to do to keep making long term decisions that were the right thing to do for our community. And so in the case of that redesign, for example, we separated out, you know, content that's made by celebrities or major publishers or things like that from content created by your real friends. And we did that to make sure that people had these really strong relationships with their real friends, and also create a space for publishers to be successful. And that change was very disruptive, because some celebrities got upset because we changed how much distribution they were getting publishers got upset, those sorts of things. But ultimately, we really felt that was the right thing to do. And so even though it was really painful at the time to go through that transition, you know, simultaneously, we also transitioned our advertising business. So we went from, you know, fixed pricing of our advertising sold by a human primarily by a human Salesforce to an auction based model, which brought pricing down more than 90%. And so we had this really challenging environment where we changed the product, we brought advertising pricing down 90 plus percent, and we were still really trying to grow the business. And you know that that was very difficult to do as a public company. And I think the most difficult part is that, you know, a lot of the compensation that our team members receive is in the form of stock based compensation. And so when you're a member of our team, and you're trying to pay your mortgage, and the stocks down 80%, that's really challenging. And so it makes it very hard to retain really amazing people who have a hard time coping with that volatility and paying their car payment, or their mortgage payment or something like that. And so that was the hardest part of all of it, and the most heartbreaking part, just to see the impact on our team and their livelihood, and their compensation. But outside of that, I think it is really important to make long term decisions in the best interest of the company, and just sort of ride the ups and downs of the stock market.

David Novak 12:52 

So you know, everybody at the time thought you had the bomb, they buy your stock, big time and you make the big change, you know, you've got to have innately a real healthy dissatisfaction for the status quo, that, that takes a lot of guts to change something that people were in love with

Evan Spiegel 13:10 

it? Well, yeah, I mean, I guess it seems sort of obvious to us, because it seemed like the right change for the products. And we figured once people learned about it, and adapted to it, that they'd like it to. And that's what we've seen historically, with our products. You know, at the time, we've made this product called stories that ended up being a very popular product of ours. But when we first released it for the first six or nine months, nobody really used it. And, you know, they were kind of like, what is what is this doing here, and so it took a long time for that product to get traction. And so what we've seen is that, you know, the growth of technology products is actually constrained by the rate at which people can change. So oftentimes, we talk a lot about celebrating all these new technology achievements. But actually, humans are the ones that I think create the constraints on the growth and adoption of new technology products. And so we always try to keep that in mind when we're building new products to bring the community along with us. And also, to just, you know, I guess, pay attention to the fact that day one, it is hard to adjust. Humans don't necessarily love that sort of change, even when it can provide more value. Yeah,

David Novak 14:10 

well, you know, there's not that many early adopters that you try to simplify so you can bring everybody along. But when you did that redesign there, you know, you talked about how it had impact on your people, you know, the stock going down. You also got a lot of personal criticism, you had like Kylie Jenner, she's got 35 million followers on Twitter, you know, basically say, you made the product worse, and you get some egg on your face, you know, how did that affect your psyche? I mean, I've had that kind of these things happen to me too. I

Evan Spiegel 14:40 

don't like it. Yeah, it's never fun. It's but it's also part of the job. So I think just just remembering that is not actually personal and that, you know, our community does feel really strongly about our products and and actually trying to keep an open mind and really listen because I think some of the the concern that I have is that as the company gets bigger. And as you receive all of this criticism on an ongoing basis, sometimes it can be hard to know when to listen. And so what we see a lot of times is that as companies grow, or as leaders grow, and they learn to, you know, harden themselves to that criticism, that sometimes you know, when it really matters when people are really frustrated, or you make a big mistake, they aren't as open to listen to. And so what I try to do is strike that right balance of trying to stay open and listening to the complaints and frustrations that our community has. And at the same time, just knowing that it's not personal, and I'm doing the best I can to do my job. But But yeah, it doesn't feel good. And that's why it's so important to have close friends and family to support you, you know, and obviously, for me, it's just delightful hanging out with our children. So I think having those spaces to relax and just feel the love of your family members definitely makes it easier.

David Novak 15:48 

And you deep down, you felt like you'd made the right long term decision that would pay off for you.

Evan Spiegel 15:52 

Yeah, definitely. That

David Novak 15:53 

was important. You know, you're so you're in this deep hole. And you're you're digging out of it now. And how much focus did you put on culture,

Evan Spiegel 16:03 

that's such a such a good question. And something that we focus a lot on, because it's so vitally important. And we really learned the hard way, because the company grew very rapidly from being a couple 100 people to several 1000, and a very short period of time, like a year, year and a half. And that was a really difficult period of time for the company, because there were only a couple 100 people, you know, 100 200, people who had been with the company a really long time and understood the values, our values are really simple. It's just kind of smart and creative. And that's, that's what we care about. And that's what we try to put in into practice through our behaviors. But the challenge that we had was that we had a very small number of people who really understood those values, and understood how we thought about the company and our products. And we had 1000s of new people who really wanted to learn about the company, and we didn't have enough people to educate all those new people quickly on how we ran, you know, our business. And so there are people that brought all of these new ideas and skills from other big companies, you know, values from other companies. And we, you know, I think got a little bit behind the curve in terms of educating people on our values, and also holding people accountable to our values through our performance management process. And so a lot of the work that we had to do, you know, as the company grew very rapidly, was to build out the processes and almost a new way of educating team members so that when they come into snap, they really understand, you know, what we stand for, and what we're trying to create. And I think, you know, the reason why we focus so much on having a kind culture, I mentioned, kind, smart and creative, kindness is so important for us, because in our view, that's what helps people feel comfortable being creative. And so unless you have a really supportive atmosphere, it can be hard to take risks, it can be hard to throw out a crazy idea. And so what we really want to do is have a culture where people feel comfortable being themselves because that's what drives that innovation and creativity.

David Novak 17:49 

So you're really creating a work environment where positivity is very important, you know, and, you know, kindness, it sounds so soft. What made you think that you know, that's gonna really deliver the business outcome that you're looking for?

Evan Spiegel 18:06 

Well, in our business, innovation really is everything. And in technology, you know, the business moves so quickly. And you know, new companies and little startups come out of nowhere, and take on these these giant companies. And so remembering that that creativity and innovation really is at the core of business success means that you spend a lot of your time and energy thinking about how to feed that creativity. And so while kindness may seem like soft, for people who aren't familiar with our culture, at the same time, it's absolutely vital to the core of the technology business. And that's why it's been so important. And so kindness for us is very strategic, because it allows people to really, you know, feel comfortable expressing themselves and take risks like that redesign. Because if we're not constantly reinventing ourselves, then someone else will come and do a better job than we are for our community.

David Novak 18:55 

Why do you think so many leaders discount the fact that the soft stuff really does drive hard results?

Evan Spiegel 19:01 

Gosh, well, it's hard to speak for other leaders, because I actually a lot of the leaders that I see today are very focused on and I think one of the reasons that they're so focused on it is that there's more and more research that shows that we are all inherently very creative, but that our fear over time overrides that creativity, and actually inhibits us from expressing ourselves inhibits us from sharing our new ideas. And so I think a lot of leaders are very attuned to this phenomenon, and are very focused on trying to make sure people do feel comfortable that they don't feel afraid of expressing their ideas, because leaders are always in search of great new ideas. So I do think there's a focus on that. And I think, you know, more and more, especially as our work lives and our home lives, blend, you know, now during COVID More than ever, there's really this feeling the need to bring your whole self to work. And that's something that we really want to support. It's an app and we do things like Council where people sit together in small groups and take turns sharing how they feel and listening to one another. And I think That's another thing that helps people feel appreciated for their own unique abilities and their own unique points of view. And that brings out the best and our talent.

David Novak 20:07 

You don't have in so many tech people get enamored with a great product. But you know, we all know a great product is not enough, you've got to build a sustainable business model. How are you going about making that happened?

Evan Spiegel 20:19 

Well, I think for us, at least in our business that starts with sustainable engagement. And so we've built our business around friends talking to one another, which we found is something that people really love to do, and they'd like to do all day long. And so that durable engagement, a service that's really built around bringing friends together, and helping them express themselves, I think, is really the starting point to building, you know, longevity as a business. And so what we try to do is create more value for those people using our products to hang out with their friends. And then as part of that, we've also made it easier for advertisers and other businesses to grow and achieve their business objectives by partnering with snap. And so the really unique thing about our business, and I think about some other technology businesses is that we think about ourselves as a platform where we have different stakeholders. So we're constantly trying to create value for the people that use our products all day long. And we're also thinking about how we can create value for our advertising partners, or other business partners or creators who are building augmented reality. And so creating value for all of those people creating like win win win. Value is really what allows the business to grow overall, because when the businesses that are advertising on SNAP are thriving, they're reinvesting more in our community, which then we can reinvest in new products that benefits our community and helps them stay more engaged. And so I think, thinking about our business, from this platform perspective, and about creating value for all the different stakeholders is really for us the key to creating durable business value.

David Novak 21:45 

You know, the rude reality is, is that the forces of business and competition, it's ruthless out there, you bet you a little bit earlier about people coming up and other startups, you can get rid of doubt in a hurry. You know, what kind of mindset does this put you in?

Evan Spiegel 22:01 

Well, I think it's one that's always like curious, because you want to learn about the world and learn about people and really let the people who use your products guide you and drive you. And I think many business leaders have learned how powerful it is to just follow your community and their desires. That's how we've created some of our greatest products, because people have shared with us the things that they want. And we've been able to serve them. And so I think constantly, you know, having that curiosity, really seeking to better serve our community has helped us continue to innovate and grow. And that's one of the strategic advantages of having, you know, these hundreds of millions of people using SAP is that all of them are there helping us make our service better every day. And so as long as we're continuing to listen to them, and follow their lead in terms of the products and services that they want, then I think that helps us to, you know, maintain that pace of innovating. It's also very inspiring, because our community is constantly raising the bar for us. Your community

David Novak 22:56 

is just getting bigger and bigger. You know, and you touched on this a little bit earlier in terms of what makes you competitive and your business model work. Warren Buffett always talks about the importance of creating moats around your business. I remember him telling me what you want to make sure there's sharks and barracudas and everything is keeping everybody away from your castle. So how would you best describe your moat?

Evan Spiegel 23:17 

Well, platform businesses create very, very powerful moats over time. And so I can give one example, with our augmented reality business. So when we started growing our augmented reality business, we saw a very big opportunity, because people were using our camera all day long, you know, they're creating over 4 billion snaps every single day. And so we realized that we could give them new effects and new ways to use their camera with augmented reality that would help them create better snaps, and more fun snaps. And we built originally just a couple of lenses, those are our augmented reality products, and, you know, maybe seven or something, and people started using them, and they love them. And over time, what we did is we made those tools that you know, to create those augmented reality effects available to our entire community. And so now today, you know, there have been over a million lenses created by our community, for our community to use. And because people have created more and more lenses, more and more people want to use our camera and want to use our products. And so you have this very virtuous feedback loop where the usage of Snapchat makes it a more compelling place for developers to invest in our products, which then brings more people onto Snapchat to use our service. And so I think that sort of virtuous cycle is one of the really exciting things, you know, that technology platforms have to offer. And when you have that, I think that can over time become a very powerful moat.

David Novak 24:36 

You know, Evan, as a CEO of let's just call it a lightning speed world. I mean, you do you have a personal strategic process that you use to, you know, Gretzky always said, You got to go where the pucks going, I mean, do you what's your Do you have a personal way of going about strategy because obviously, you're very strategic.

Evan Spiegel 24:55 

Well, I think our strategy is, like I mentioned always been driven by our community. And so what I tried to do is remain, you know, tuned into our community and to people and what they're passionate about and interested in and the types of products they're using and the problems that they have. And I think for us, that's really informed our strategy over time, because it helps us build great products. And snap is really a product driven company. I mean, we, we really think about ourselves that way. So rather than, you know, creating some giant, you know, macro landscape and figuring out, you know, where the biggest market is, and going after that, what we try to do is just solve real human problems with our products, we work on growing our business that way. So for us, you know, it's really just about empathy, and making sure we're hiring people who are empathetic to the needs of our customers and staying, you know, really close to them.

David Novak 25:43 

Do you have a special way you really get it at problems? Because I love how entrepreneurs like yourself, they always find out what those biggest problems are that are occurring for their customers that occur most frequently, then they they solve them. And that leads to innovation, do you have a particular way of going out and really understanding what those problems are?

Evan Spiegel 26:03 

Well, my approach to, you know, understanding problems is really just asking a lot of questions. And I'm not afraid to ask dumb questions. I mean, the vast majority of all the questions I asked are really dumb. And I think that's what really helps me understand what the problem actually is. And I think that in and of itself is the key. And that's how you get to the insight. Because I think unless you really ask a lot of questions and go very deep into these issues, it can be hard to, you know, get clarity around specifically what the what the problem itself is. And once there's that clarity and real understanding of where the problem is, then I think it's much easier to solve. So for me, a lot of my time and energy is spent on defining the problem itself by asking a lot of questions.

David Novak 26:44 

And so once you find that problem, you figure out where you're going, how do you instill a real sense of urgency in your company?

Evan Spiegel 26:50 

Well, the problem itself is usually enough to inspire and drive our team because they love a good problem. And I think the fun thing, then is in the problem solving process, that ideation that happens is really what we get a lot of joy out of. So you know, we just try to come up with as many ideas as we can to solve a problem. And we know that the vast majority of those ideas, you know, 99% of those ideas, we're just gonna throw out. And so it's a very liberating process, when you have this feeling, you know, the vast majority of the ideas we have, we're gonna throw out anyway, so we might as well come up with as many as we can. And so that reduces the pressure to coming up with new ideas. And that part of the process is always a ton of fun.

David Novak 27:29 

Well, you've got to have some great designers, because you've got products that now like Facebook's ripping off, every time you come up with something, they rip it off, you know, how does that make you feel? I mean, how pissed off the again?

Evan Spiegel 27:44 

Well, you know, I think the hallmark of a really great designer is that your ideas get copied. And so what we're very focused on is coming up with new ideas. And that's, that's really where the emphasis is, for our team. And I think in our industry, in general, there can oftentimes be this, you know, almost instinctive reaction to try to protect your ideas. But what we've learned over time is that by being open with your ideas, and getting feedback on them, you make your ideas better. And so I think you have to resist the urge to really, you know, try to protect your ideas at all costs, and instead be open with them and generous with them. Because, you know, the amount of new ideas we have is, you know, probably infinite, there's always new new ideas. And so, you know, ideas are not the scarce, the scarce resource at snap, the scarce resources, you know, our ability to execute and engineering and things like that. And so, I think you just have to resist the urge to treat ideas as something precious, and instead, like, really focus on driving high quality execution, and, you know, keep innovating. You know,

David Novak 28:43 

speaking of Facebook, and social media in general, I, I understand you spent a ton of time studying the regulatory history of media in general. And where do you think it's all headed? I know, you could probably spend hours on this. But if you could boil it down, where do you think it's headed?

Evan Spiegel 29:00 

Well, it's funny, you mentioned that, you know, when I'm looking towards the future, I actually get a lot of inspiration from the past. Because there are so many people who have spent, you know, millions and millions of hours working on these problems and thinking about them. So rather than kind of trying to come up with something from scratch, we can just learn from what other people have spent their lives working on. And that's certainly the case as it pertains to regulation. And so, you know, with the United States in particular, and to some extent, Europe, I think the way that we've thought about media regulation in general, in the United States is that we've really bifurcated communication from broadcast media. And we've said that there are really two different sets of rules that apply that to those two different things, you know, communication and broadcast to different regulatory bodies. And generally, that's worked pretty well. And so the expectations around telecommunications for example, is that you can have a private conversation with your friends, you can say totally crazy and inappropriate things. And the government actually has to do quite a bit of work to get a warrant and stuff like that if they want to listen to your conversation. And I think so far that's you know, struck the right balance between protect During the security and safety of our citizens also allowing people to express their ideas in private, you know, and then on the flip side, I think when you look at broadcasting, historically, in our country, we viewed broadcasting as a pretty big responsibility, you know, you're reaching hundreds of 1000s, and millions of people with information, and therefore, broadcasters are held to a much higher standard than people who are just talking with their friends. And that makes sort of common sense to me, I understand why we thought about it that way. But the challenge of poses for the internet looking forward is that never before in our history, have we allowed any individual, you know, person in this country to broadcast whatever they want to millions and millions and millions of people. And that's that, and I, in my opinion, is a tremendous privilege to be able to communicate with millions of people. And I think it is reasonable that we have guidelines around what is and is not acceptable when we're broadcasting things. There's a lot of sensitivity around that, because that is the business model of social media. That's how social media has worked. And I think, you know, that is a little bit, you know, of where you see some of the challenges that we have today. And I think the last point that I want to make, it may be pertains to how we think about the First Amendment because I hear all the time, you know, oh, well, free speech should be allowed on on these different platforms. And that's just not you know, how the First Amendment was conceived, or how we've thought about, you know, free speech historically, in our country. What we've said it actually, you know, is that the First Amendment is designed to protect individual citizens and businesses from the government, that individual citizens and businesses actually have a right to free speech. And so what I think is fascinating is the first amendment right actually protects platforms like snap, or like Facebook or Twitter to make whatever decisions they'd like to make about the sorts of content that are on their platforms. And so I think the question today is, how are these different platforms going to exercise their First Amendment rights? And how are we going to find a way to, I think, express the notion that if you are broadcasting to millions and millions of people, that maybe there should be a higher standard of what you're able to communicate, certainly a standard that's higher than just chatting with one of your buddies,

David Novak 32:10 

as I was preparing for this interview and thinking about what you've really gone through here, you're like, a three year old company, you know, it's like, you've got all this attention on, you know, what's it like, just being so much in the public eye?

Evan Spiegel 32:23 

Well, now, now, it's normal. But, you know, I think I think the transition was really difficult. You know, I remember being a kid, I think we started the company, I was like, 2021 years old. And, you know, the, my sense of, you know, feeling held accountable was like, either through the school or something like the principal's office, or my parents, those are the people who are really holding me accountable. And then, you know, running a business as a private company, the media really holds you accountable, your investors hold you accountable your board, the general public, and as you become a public company, and really meaningful in people's lives, in terms of the way they communicate, and hang out with their friends, you know, the accountability just grows and grows. So I think, you know, that, that that transition, was challenging, because I had never experienced that before. But I think, you know, we have a lot of systems in our country that are really designed to create accountability. And I think those systems are powerful. And I think ultimately, even though it's not particularly fun, and sometimes it's a little painful, I think we all, you know, get a better outcome, you know, both in terms of our society, benefiting from leaders who are held accountable, and also like my own personal growth, I feel like I was pushed, in some respects to really grow as a leader. And you know, I'm grateful for that experience.

David Novak 33:35 

You know, that that brings me to this next question. perfect segue, you know, is how do you balance? What I'm going to just call snap? 1.0? Okay, like one to three years into the short term versus snap? 2.0? Where do you see the business going? 10 years ago, you know, you have this huge, broad vision, huge frame of reference, where you can develop all kinds of products. How do you balance that? How do you balance the two?

Evan Spiegel 33:59 

Well, for me, the key is a really talented team of operators. And, you know, for me, the the nitty gritty of operating the business has never been, you know, my real passion, I can do it. And, you know, I really liked the results that we get when we when we, you know, really focus on our operations. But for me, you know, that's not what gets me up in the morning. The thing that I'm really passionate about is working on the product and our, with our creative teams and things like that. And so, the key for me has been really building a world class team of leaders who love doing that. And you know, we often joke like they love it, they just are obsessed with operating the business. That's what they want to wake up and do every day. And I think that balance that we have, where, you know, my passions are different than their passions, and their skills and abilities are different than mine, has created a really great team dynamic and partnership. And that's what allows me to spend more of my time thinking about the future of the business or, you know, making investments and longer term product plans that could take three 510 years to really come to fruition, and I can do all of that with the comfort that we've got this really remarkable team executing on the business. So that, to me has been has been the big, the big secret. But it's never easy to find the perfect balance, I just think it's important to constantly be thinking about the future.

David Novak 35:21 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Evan Spiegel. In just a moment, I had the opportunity to sit down with Patrick Spence, the CEO of Sonos, and learn that he and his team are constantly innovating.

Patrick Spence 35:33 

I worry about the future of innovation, I worry about the ability for startups to really thrive in a world where, you know, there's a few companies that really dominate and acquire companies, you know, along the way to try and reduce competition and some of those things. And that's why I've been trying to stand for innovation and competition. And I just think, David, we would be a much more vibrant country, if we had a lot more small and medium sized businesses.

David Novak 35:58 

sonus has created a culture of innovation and has been a key to their success. And here's the thing, you can learn to create this kind of culture to listen to episode 81, with Patrick Spence here on how leaders lead.

You know, you've been really honest, I've read a lot of stuff about you, and you've been honest about your early days as a leader, you kind of got described yourself as a frat boy leader, whatever. Did you have some sort of watershed moment where you said, Hey, I've really got a up my leadership game, and this is something I've got to be as good as I am at product development? Well, I

Evan Spiegel 36:35 

wouldn't say it was one watershed moment, I think it's been continuous. And I think the bar is always being raised, you know, as it should, I mean, I enjoy that feeling of growing personally, I enjoy that. I enjoy that challenge. And I think there's always more to do to become a better person and a better leader, and that are contributed to our company. I mean, some of the best moments for me have been ones where, you know, my mentors or friends have had really direct and honest conversations with me about needing to step up. You know, one example was one of our board members, Stan, who really believed that I needed to spend more time, you know, communicating with our company, you know, doing all hands meetings, and things like that. And I really didn't like doing it, I've never really enjoyed public speaking all that much, and certainly not in front of a big audience. And so that made me feel really uncomfortable. And Stan just looks at me and is like Evan, too bad. It's your job, like, figure it out, you know, and it was just so helpful for me to have, you know, someone who I really admire who's a leader, basically, they like to bad figure it out. And so literally, from that moment, I'm like, I'm gonna figure out how I can love doing it, like how I can enjoy it and feel comfortable doing it. And now I spend, you know, once a week, an hour a week with our company, just answering their questions and communicating with them. And so, you know, that's that was an example. But I think they're, you know, there's countless moments like that. And I've just been fortunate to have really great mentors and leaders along the way, tell me, you know, when I need to step up,

David Novak 37:57 

you know, the best investors I know of and, you know, the, the Warren Buffett's of the world that can land guns that the Allen breeds they all invest in, in a company only if they believe in the CEOs leadership, you know, why should someone invest in you?

Evan Spiegel 38:12 

I mean, I think the most important thing I've learned as a leader is really just that, like continuous curiosity. And this feeling that like, I've barely scratched the surface in terms of what I know, and what I'm going to be able to learn. And so I think keeping that sort of just growth mindset, to me has been the most valuable asset as a leader. And it's been the most fun part of the job, because if every single day, you're learning something new and growing. And, you know, are you believing becoming a new person? I mean, I feel like every couple of months, I'm like, a new person in terms of the skills that I've acquired and the ways that I've had to grow. And so I think for me, you know, the investment thesis is always about people's ability to grow. And that's why I think investing in SNAP, would would be a good investment,

David Novak 38:58 

every great leader that I've ever met, you know, and I provide a pick one trait that separates them all is that they are curious, and that they they are avid learners, is there anything in particular you do to stay on top of the world or get the know how that you need to take the company to the next level?

Evan Spiegel 39:18 

Well, I read voraciously, all the time. But I think the other thing that's helped me on reading as really and now this is like probably the biggest blessing of my job is that all sorts of really interesting people, including yourself are willing to talk with me and share their leadership lessons and their experiences. I remember when we first spoke, you know, you spend some time sharing with me how you think about leadership and development and rewarding your top performers on your team. And so I've just been able to learn from so many great leaders out there and so I think for me, you know, that privilege that access to other really talented leaders has been the thing that's that's made such a big difference.

David Novak 39:56 

We were talking just a second ago about Snap 1.0 Snap to poor You know, it, I always felt when when I was CEO that you had to really put wins on the board short term to have credibility for the long term. How do you respond to that?

Evan Spiegel 40:11 

Cool? Well, it might be a little bit different for me, you know, having created the company with Bobby, because, you know, we just view the fact that we're in business as like a massive win. You know, when you start in my dad's dining room table, all your friends have these great fancy jobs, and they're making a ton of money. And you're sitting at your dad's dining room table, and you're like, you know, just working on on an app hoping that it'll get some traction. I think, you know, for us, The win was always just that we got to create our own business. And we, you know, we were able to sort of follow our dream. And so I think, for us that that's really been been the most exciting part of it. But yeah, certainly, you know, in terms of creating momentum with the team and things like that, I think it is really important. And I think, you know, it for me, also, when I'm looking at, you know, setting goals for our team, I also really want to help our team understand how those short term goals ladder up into the more important long term goals. And so it's not just about like, you know, tackling some short term win today, it's about how that short term win today is going to help us achieve our vision 510 years from now, and I think that's really how you can get momentum, because not only do you get people aligned around the near term objectives, but they also can see that shared future together,

David Novak 41:25 

you brought up Bobby Murphy, a couple of times, you guys founded the company together, how did you guys go about defining what each one of you is going to do?

Evan Spiegel 41:33 

We just got so lucky, because we just both ended up doing what we love to do, and it turned out to be different. So I think that, you know, that ended up being a real blessing. I know, there are some founders that you know, have a little trouble figuring out, you know, where people's strengths are, and sort of how that lines up with the job descriptions. But we've just both, we both loved doing different things. And we also both loved working together and respected each other and appreciated the different skills that we brought to the table. And so that's that, in my opinion, is really what has made the relationship work.

David Novak 42:04 

You have control, as I understand that they have almost, you know, all the voting control for your stock. And what do you think that's good for your business and shareholders?

Evan Spiegel 42:15 

Well, I think what it allows us to do are make really big, bold, long term decisions, and be able to weather the ups and downs. So like you mentioned with the redesign, you know, I think our stock was down, I think you mentioned something like 80% from where it went public. And ultimately, we that was a result of making a lot of decisions that we thought were good for the long term of the business. And, you know, certainly I think we've seen some recent indications that the stock market is starting to come around to that perspective as well. I think having voting control allows you to make those big, bold decisions. And in technology that is particularly important, because if you do not continually reinvent yourself, you will be put out of business. And so that focus on continual reinvention, that ability to take big bets, I believe, is enabled by, you know, our long term voting structure. But we're a bit unique in that, you know, our voting structure, for example, sunsets, when Bobby and I pass away, that's really different than other companies who you know, think it's okay to pass that on to your children or something like that. So we tried to strike the right boundaries and put some guardrails around how we thought about voting control. Because, you know, it is very important, I think that Bobby and I get to fulfill our vision. But hopefully, by the time you know, we get a little bit older, we'll be able to develop a whole new group of leaders that snap and really, you know, empower them to follow their vision for the future of the company. And that shouldn't necessarily be inhibited by our children having the voting control or something like that. Well, I

David Novak 43:42 

think the voting control my personal opinion, is that it does, yeah, I think the great shareholders that are going to be with their longtime they appreciate the fact you can make those long term decisions, which is, which is fantastic. And when it comes to driving shareholder value, consistent, reliable performance is is key. You know, you had that one little hiccup there at the beginning, how much does volatility scare you today?

Evan Spiegel 44:07 

Well, I think especially early on in the life of the company, like ours, volatility is to be expected. I think when when you're talking about consistency and things like that, oftentimes, that's something that's really prized in companies that are, you know, 3040 50 100 years old, you know, with a different shareholder base. Now, snap is really a growth story. You know, I think what our revenue in the first quarter grew something like 44% year over year, which I think was maybe the highest out of all the other, you know, tech stocks in our sector at least. And so I think what people are really investing in is that growth and the ability to grow our business over the long term with an understanding that that does come you know, with some additional volatility because it's a young business. And you know, we we're still going to continue to take these these big bets.

David Novak 44:54 

You mentioned earlier you're really spending a lot of time communicating with your the broader organization. You're Get yourself out of the, you know that, you know, into a more comfortable position doing that which is, which is terrific. And, you know, you have a team that you feel really passionate about. What's a coaching session like with Evan Spiegel?

Evan Spiegel 45:14 

Oh, wow. Um, well, I think the most important thing is that it's unique to each individual, you know, we do coaching together as a team. But you know, I find a one on one conversations to be really helpful, because I think there's a certain amount of just openness, that the team members, you know, feel when they're working through problems. And so what I really like to do is just, you know, try to solve problems together with our team members. So talking about issues that they're seeing on their team talking about challenges that they're having with, you know, the structure or the way it works getting done, or even help people, you know, problem solve on our team. One of the things I learned early on, I wish I had learned it, you know, even earlier, was really my job as the leader in terms of conflict resolution, you know, I really believed, you know, when I was just getting started that if two really experienced leaders came to me with a conflict, you know, my job was actually to say, well, you know, you two should should figure that out, you know, that, you know, you're both really talented professionals, I'm sure you too, can work it out. But what I wasn't realizing was that they were bringing it to me, they'd already tried, maybe a couple times. And so actually, my role was to help them solve it and help make that decision. And so I also tried to take very seriously, you know, my role in terms of helping assist our team members work better together and put them in situations where they can really succeed and support one another. So, you know, a bunch of my time is spent one on one helping people develop, but also thinking about the interpersonal relationships on our team. Because, you know, as I mentioned, we really like to have a team based culture and a team based feeling, which is different than, you know, maybe a more hierarchical structure. And that means everyone has to really respect and admire and work together with one another. And you have to invest in those relationships. That doesn't just happen automatically. Yeah, absolutely.

David Novak 46:55 

And, and, you know, I remember when I was coming up, and I had fairly large responsibilities, you know, I was young, and I had a lot of older people working for me, that created a lot of anxiety for me, how about you?

Evan Spiegel 47:07 

I mean, it was pretty fun. I was always like the youngest of these, like CEO, dinner parties and stuff like that. It's definitely fun being being a young leader. And what I found is that, you know, so many of these, you're more experienced leaders are so generous and willing to share their learnings. And that has been amazing for me just to have those resources on our team, and have, you know, amazing leaders who are working at snap, who are also willing to share their expertise with me is is awesome.

David Novak 47:36 

So you get all kinds of advice, and you seek all kinds of advice, What's the best advice you've received from another leader? That one

Evan Spiegel 47:42 

piece of advice, and maybe the biggest difference in the life of our company was a piece of advice I got from one of our investors when we were still in my dad's house? And he said, Evan, you need to get really good at saying no, I was like, What are you talking about? He's like, Well, you know, now that the company is growing, a lot of people are gonna come to you with different requests, and they're gonna want to collaborate together. And you know, they, you know, they might want to partner together or these sorts of things. And, you know, you don't have that many resources, you've got like four people working in your dad's house. And so you need to get really good at saying no, because that'll help you focus on the things that are important. That message and that permission, you know, this was someone who I really admire, and the fact that he gave me permission to say, No, when I think all of us because we're human, we want to help other people, we want to be really empathetic. And we always we want a partner, I think, you know, having that permission to say, no, I'm sorry, I really need to focus on the core things that are fundamental to our business, that permission early on, made a massive difference for us. You know, because we really could focus and use our resources on the things that we thought, you know, create the most value,

David Novak 48:44 

what would be the worst advice you ever received?

Evan Spiegel 48:47 

sell the company?

David Novak 48:50 

There you go. I was thinking that was gonna be the answer. Yeah. Tell us the difference, you think between the Evan Spiegel the person that versus the Evan Spiegel, that's written about in the press? What's the biggest difference? Or is identical?

Evan Spiegel 49:06 

Oh, wow. You know, I think, especially when I was younger, I was really guarded with the, with the media, and I wasn't really open, I didn't do a lot of interviews. And so that actually means the media and like, didn't get to know me very well at all. I didn't really like doing sort of stories and things like that. And if I did, I would talk, you know, just about the business and the product and not about myself or my values or anything. And so I think that created like some unnecessary friction in my relationship with the media. But for me, you know, I was super young, I was 20, something years old, and just trying to figure it all out. And so I didn't feel comfortable being open about who I was with the media. And so I think, I think in that way, I didn't build the relationships with the media that I could have, just because I wasn't as willing to be open and to you know, really participate in that process. And so that made it harder for the stories that were written to reflect who I am because most of the time the writers didn't know me, but Now, you know, I'm more open to, to interviews and to sharing who I am with with reporters and things like that. And I feel more comfortable doing that now after, you know, however many years so, hopefully the story is now at least or, you know, at least reflect some of my some of my input. I don't know.

David Novak 50:15 

Well, I certainly appreciate you being so open with bid. And this has been so much fun. I want to have some more, and I want to do a lightning round a q&a with you real quick. Okay, you know, so what three words best describe you? Well, hopefully

Evan Spiegel 50:29 

our company values con smart, creative.

David Novak 50:31 

All right, what's your biggest pet peeve?

Evan Spiegel 50:34 

lateness?

David Novak 50:35 

If you could be one person for a day? Who would it be and why?

Evan Spiegel 50:39 

Let's try Lafayette. How come? Because I think he is at least in my opinion, represented a connection between two very important and early democracies, and was really able to, you know, thread and thread the needle between both carry the learnings across both and at times that were mission critical for the success, you know, of France in the United States.

David Novak 51:06 

But what's something about you that few people would know? Well, I

Evan Spiegel 51:09 

played the trumpet in second grade, I don't know if anyone knows that. That was a total disaster.

David Novak 51:15 

Do you have any hidden talents that we should know about?

Evan Spiegel 51:18 

I'm a helicopter pilot.

David Novak 51:20 

Is that right? You know, and you get interviewed all the time? Now? What's the best interview question you've ever had?

Evan Spiegel 51:27 

I mean, so some of my favorites are definitely around mistakes. You know, because I think we learned the most from those.

David Novak 51:35 

And what would you describe as your biggest mistake in your life so far,

Evan Spiegel 51:38 

I think the biggest mistakes I've made have always been when I like, I haven't gotten ahead of the growth of the company. And that's usually where I have to spend the most time cleaning up. And so you know, I all it always comes back. If I'm not thinking, you know, a couple years ahead of where the company is going and thinking about the steps we need to take to get there the infrastructure, we have to have the right people and leaders for the company. That's that's usually when it gets really challenging. And so I'm now constantly thinking about that and paranoid about, you know, what, what do we need to change now, so that we're ready for the future?

David Novak 52:13 

And I want to wrap this up by touching on two major events that we've we've gone through, you know, how much do you think that COVID-19 is going to change the world as we know it?

Evan Spiegel 52:23 

Well, the most important thing that COVID has done, in my opinion, even though it's been very painful to watch is it as laid bare the tremendous inequity in American society, and the failures of many of our systems, including our health system to take care of our citizens. And that's been most obvious, because the outcomes in other countries are very different. And other countries have been able to manage this crisis more effectively. And so I think when you see that, you know, for example, you know, black or Latinx, people in our culture are dying at higher rates, when you see that the economic impact of COVID disproportionately impacts those people who are also dying at higher rates, when you see the backdrop of racism that persists in our country today, exacerbated by this situation, I think, generally, it's a really important step for our country to take to at least see that this problem exists. Because unless we're willing to acknowledge this problem, unless we're willing to acknowledge this history, unless we're willing to acknowledge the inequities in our system today, it's going to be very difficult for us to fix them. And so I think even in the short term, well, this is an excruciating period of time. I do think this event brings us closer to a country that embodies our values over the longer term, and I wasn't sure you know, what series of events would get us there. It certainly in my view, was something that would take a much longer period of time, I think that period of time may be shorter, as a result of COVID. So I think the biggest thing that it's done is really laid bare the inequities in our society and the failings of our country to take care of its citizens.

David Novak 54:07 

Haven't you? You posted? I want to compliment you on this. It was amazingly insightful, and what I think some people would call soulful note on the call for racial justice. I mean, it was really well done. What do you think was the most salient point you made, and I encourage all our listeners to go online and, and read Evans note,

Evan Spiegel 54:29 

I actually think that the most important point and maybe the macro point, it's something we all need to talk about, is the way that we're investing in the future of our society in our country. And the realization that, you know, we've had this massive demographic shift in the United States. So the United States is now much less white than it was many years ago. And it's about 5050 today, and concurrent with that change over the past, you know, 20 3040 years, we've actually divested From the future, so we've reduced our spending on research and development, we've actually made it more difficult to get an affordable education that really prepares you. For the workforce, we've made it harder to access things like housing, things that create a little bit of a safety net, to allow you to take risks and follow your passions and dreams. And so I think in this country, we're having a bit of a realization that we do need to invest in the future, that we do need to invest in our young people. And our young people look different than the, you know, politicians or the current, you know, group of people that run the country. And I think that's where a lot of this tension is coming from today. And so I think we can all talk about and get excited about these investments in the future, because the other thing that we know is that these future oriented investments are profitable investments for our country, because they generate more revenue over the long term, and actually more than pay for themselves. So when we're spending money on education for people zero to 18, we're spending money on health care for people zero to 18, those investments are hugely profitable, and result in more revenue for the government. And so what I want to do is have a conversation here that this is not only about doing the right thing, you know, about ensuring the future success of our country, but it's also the like the prudent thing to do the profitable thing to do. And so in that way, I think this is something that we should be able to get alignment on as a country, it'll help us live our values, but it'll also make us a much more successful country overall,

David Novak 56:23 

he started out in that letter saying you apologize for taking so long to publish it. And once I read the letter, I knew why it took you a while. I mean, it was extremely thoughtful. Well done, Evan, wrapping this up, but what would be three bits of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders and or entrepreneurs?

Evan Spiegel 56:42 

Oh, well, I think the biggest thing for me, the thing that changed my life, was that my parents just encouraged me to try all the things that I was curious about from a really young age, and never made me feel bad. When you know, it wasn't something that resonated or I wanted to try something else. It didn't make me feel like a failure when I gave up. And you know, it can be hard as a parent, I see right now, with our nine year old, you know, like, sometimes he wants to play the piano. And other times, he's like, I never want to play the piano again. And I want to do swimming, or whatever it is. And I think, you know, it's hard because as a parent, you want to teach your children to have that work ethic, and that drive to really complete things and you know, become a great pianist, or whatever it is. But when you're young and discovering yourself and discovering your passions, it's actually really important that you don't waste time trying to become a world class pianist, if you actually should be an Olympic swimmer, or an artist or whatever it is. And so, for me, I think it's just reducing the amount of time that it takes for you to find the things that you're passionate about reducing the amount of time it takes to find the things that really get you up in the morning. And if you can do that, then everything else is easy. And it took me a while I tried a bunch of different things. You know, I interned at a company that did biomedical computation, I worked in marketing, you know, on and on and on. And it took me a long time to really find like, computer science and graphic design and mechanical engineering and all these things that I really enjoyed. And, you know, after I did that, everything else was easy, because I love what I do. And you know, I get excited to do it everyday. Last but

David Novak 58:10 

not least, you know, how much fun are you having, being a father just mentioned your nine year old son and having such a great family? And, and how are you keeping it all in balance?

Evan Spiegel 58:20 

Well, I just feel unbelievably blessed. First of all, to have such a wonderful and caring wife, you know, who's also a fantastic mother and she, she's the center of our universe over here. So our household revolves around her. And, you know, we've got three boys. So it's the four boys and we're just, you know, in awe of her, she's the she's the queen of our universe, she she definitely keeps everything together. But I think the thing that's been transformational about COVID, in this period of time for me, is that I've had to, you know, choose less between my work and our family. And you know, in the past, I really felt like I had to sacrifice a lot, you know, I would leave before kids would get up in the morning, I'd get home after they were asleep. You know, I'd be traveling a lot, even on the weekends. And it was very hard for me to connect with our family. And I felt like I was sacrificing a lot of that time for our business. And ultimately, that's really important. I'm responsible for 1000s of people at snap, and for a broader community and our partners. So that weighs on me too. But I felt like I had to choose all the time and with COVID. Now, I see our kids so you know, all all day every day, more or less. And that's that's been, you know, one of the real joys of this very difficult period of time.

David Novak 59:29 

Well, I haven't it's been a real joy for me to have this conversation. And I appreciate so much you take the time to do it. There's a lot of insight that you provided. And thank you very much.

Evan Spiegel 59:40 

Thanks, David. I really appreciate it's a lot of fun.

David Novak 59:50 

Man, snap is so good at innovating and finding that next big thing, and I think it's important because Evan himself loves to learn is really striking. He's always exploring and staying curious. And he's got this constant supply of fresh ideas, because he's setting that example in his company. And now it's time for my favorite part of our podcast episodes. This is where I give you some coaching to help you develop as a leader this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. I'll start with a question. What exactly are you curious about? I already know you like to learn because you're listening to this podcast. But let's take it a step further this week. Commit to this for one week, I want you to spend 10 minutes a day reading up on something you're really really curious about. It doesn't even have to be a business book. Just give yourself permission to be curious and dig into it. As Evan shows is so necessary if you want to build a culture where innovation thrives. You got to open your mind to new things and suspend judgment and let things happen. So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders know how to foster innovation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you can become the best leader you can be