David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Chris Geisinger, the President and CEO of Wawa. Now depending on where you live, you might be wondering what the heck is Wawa. But if you spend time in the Philadelphia area, and in the northeast, you know that Wawa is one of the most beloved convenience store chains in America. Chris has been with Wawa for more than 25 years. And let me tell you, he has played a huge role in growing Wawa and creating a culture that is second to none. You see, Chris believes in putting customers and employees first. I mean, truly taking care of people is the key to scaling a successful business. As I like to say, when you do the right thing, the right things happen. And it's inspiring to see that that truly plays out at Wawa. If you want to learn how to operationalize that concept. If you want to build a people first culture, if you're trying to scale something without losing that human element. Well, you are listening to the right podcast. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Chris guy since

I really can't wait to get into how you leave. But I know you've grown up as a huge Philadelphia sports fan. Looking back, what's a highlight that you'll always remember?

Chris Gheysens 1:39 

Oh, boy, well, we just had some this year going to the World Series. Unexpectedly we're in the middle of one with the Philadelphia Eagles and the run that they're having. But, you know, for me, it had to be the Eagles in the Super Bowl, you know, I grew up. And the reason I'm such a fan is grew up with three older brothers and a father who would take us often into Philadelphia for games and grew up going to veteran Stadium and the 700 level, if you're familiar with that, and in Philadelphia, and you know, that was the culmination of a childhood memory of winning the Super Bowl just now four years ago that Philadelphia fans never thought would happen and was phenomenal. I just actually was looking at some tapes of that just recently, some of the plays that just reliving it,

David Novak 2:25 

that was an amazing Superbowl I'll always remember that one. And that Nick Foles comes from nowhere and has the Game of the Century against Tom Brady. I mean, this guy was making plays that I couldn't believe so that's a highlight in my sports days too, as well.

Chris Gheysens 2:40 

That was awesome. He will always be folklore hero here in Philadelphia.

David Novak 2:45 

And deservedly so. You know, Chris, I know Wawa Well, from my days is working as the Chief Operating Officer of Pepsi Cola Company, and you are one of our biggest customers. Your regional but not everybody's familiar with Wawa, could you give us a snapshot of your company?

Chris Gheysens 3:01 

Yeah, we often get like what the heck so Wawa other parts of the country because we are regional. We're only in six states and Washington DC. So if you're in the mid Atlantic area from Pennsylvania, Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, or in Florida, you pretty much know what a Wawa is. And what Wawa is, we're about 1000 store convenience store chain. But you know, it's funny David and CEO, you would think I have this nailed. And the reality is, it's hard to explain a while on I've gotten comfortable trying to muddle through explaining what a Wawa is, because I'll say convenience store because that's classically what you would call us. But the reality is we sell our own food freshly prepared food, we would sell as much food as a, as McDonald's does, but yet we sell as much coffee and more than a Dunkin Donuts does. We're the sixth largest coffee retailer in the country and, and we have all of the conveniences that you would think of like a Pepsi or Coke and sell gas and we're, we sell more gas per location than any retailer in the country as well. So it's this unique sort of place that you can stop and have that one stop shop for what you need, whether you're thirsty, whether you're hungry, and want something good, a huge variety of menu and all of that is underpinned by what we think is some of the best service in the retail industry.

David Novak 4:19 

Well, you're definitely reputed for that and I want to talk to you more about how you really do that and but as we mentioned, you know, you grew up in Philadelphia, can you remember the first time you ever walked into a Wawa?

Chris Gheysens 4:30 

I can. I grew up just on the other side of the river in southern New Jersey and I remember it vividly actually. My father I grew up in the carwash business with my father so I would go with him often there and collect quarters sweep up that kind of thing, you know, talking at a very young age, and he would then take the quarters down to this this deli not far away from from his carwash and he would exchange the quarters for dollars. He was the de facto bank for the Deli in one day that The deli owner said, Look, we're selling to a place called Wawa. And I thought that was the worst thing in the world because I love the deli owner. I love the deli experience. Long story short, when Wawa opened, finally, my father took me and I saw the size of the candy aisle and I said, Okay, I forget what the deli was, this is my new favorite place so and that was in Vineland, New Jersey, I remember it vividly.

David Novak 5:21 

And now here you are, you're the CEO. And as I understand it, you're identified in the company as the lead goose on your business card. What the heck is that all about?

Chris Gheysens 5:34 

That is true. I my business cards is exactly that. And the reality is, when I became CEO, and I don't take myself terribly seriously, I take the role and the responsibility of leadership seriously, but you know, CEO, and President felt like a boring title. David, as crazy as that might sound. So to know why, why, and to understand why, why the term comes from a Native American term for Canada Goose. And so it's our mascot. It's in all of our branding. And the reality is we talk about lessons from geese, quite a bit of wild wild and one of the lessons is at times somebody is the lead goose and that V formation and other times you fall back in formation and honk with encouragement. And for now, I guess overall, I'm the Lead goose it just that riff on, on our terminology makes a lot more sense and a lot more fun. You know, that's

David Novak 6:24 

interesting. You know, I came up in the PepsiCo system. And when Callaway was the chairman of PepsiCo, and he always talked about how, you know, you had to have that lead goose, and, you know, you need to fly in formation. And, but I always loved the honking, the honking Yeah, you know, and that's the recognition part. How important is recognition in your culture, Chris,

Chris Gheysens 6:44 

it's really important. And frankly, in any service industry, I think it's really important because, you know, people have to get that constant reassurance that what they're doing is the right thing, it is the honking literally from the back. And that's what geese apparently are physically doing is hunting with encouragement and recognition. So for us at Wawa, and the different surveys, we use any of that methodology, trying to understand engagement, satisfaction, it all boils down to you're really caring about people and you're recognizing the work they're doing often. And for us, it's terribly important. We do a lot of storytelling, a lot of institutions are built at Wawa, just around recognition. You know,

David Novak 7:23 

you say that roles are different, but the status is the same. How do you reinforce that belief

Chris Gheysens 7:30 

that something I've heard from a great college basketball coach Jay Wright, it's, I borrow that from him. And for us, I expect it to be really hard when you walk into a room a large meeting at Wawa for someone to know who's the real boss or not. And when we are here, it really is about sharing the same goal the organization first putting people first egos and your own personal agendas don't exist really at Wawa or if they do, they don't exist for long and, and frankly, when we're in stores, we're in the retail business, it's not about me, or a senior leader arriving in a store to point out what's going wrong. It's really about us trying to remove obstacles for our store associates. What can we help them do to make the customer experience better. And so you walk into a store, if there's trash on the ground and you're walking in, you pick it up, just like a store associate would when you walk in, if the coffee Island needs to be restocked, you restock it, you just don't sort of point to an associate that hey, you haven't done your job. So for us, that's a really important element, frankly, I think comes from our founding family, our wood family, that Quaker background that they have that humility, consensus building, and consensus and collaboration is a really important thing here in our culture. And I'd say that's another way that we really show that status is the same. It's just our roles are different at this time at this day,

David Novak 8:56 

you really say that the collaboration is the force multiplier in your culture. You know, can you give us an example of where you've seen that collaboration really lead to something that's really benefited your customers?

Chris Gheysens 9:09 

Absolutely. I can give you our general manager counsel that, that I have outside of my office, I have a conference room called the General Manager, council room, Council conference room, and that with each of their pictures on the wall, so it's one general manager, which is a store manager from each of our 10 geographic regions. I meet with them monthly, and just me and they and we walk through what are their issues that they're experiencing in their stores, what their peers are experiencing, and we collaborate on solutions live in the moment. And you can imagine there's quite a few levels between me and the store general managers that would want to be in that meeting, or would really want to try to solve that in a different way. But for us, it's really about the paying customer or the associated store level. What are the issues Is that we can solve right there. So the collaboration is tremendous, because you hear leaders, our general managers from different areas of the organization, collaborating together to come up with solutions. And then we'll implement and communicate them out almost the same day at times. So that, to me is just a powerful example of listening to our customers, our internal customers, and as well are paying customers, but then coming up with solutions, and quickly really go into market with them.

David Novak 10:28 

That's interesting, because it's just you and your store managers. So you wipe out a lot of the layers there and go directly to, you know, what I always call them, the number one leaders in the company, the store managers, because they create the culture in the stores. How did your people that work for you feel about that, we've had a long

Chris Gheysens 10:45 

history at Wawa of having a store tour process, we called it where leaders would go out each month, and really a broad set of leaders into the stores and tour stores and talk to general managers, we still do that, that used to culminate in a meeting that was well, maybe a little bit even uncomfortable at the time where the former CEO would bring in some of those general managers, you know, Hall in sort of the the business unit leads, and point out the problems, they had to make them fix it. So it's a evolution of that process. But, you know, frankly, it's been a challenge, I think getting it off the ground early on about 10 years ago. But now, when they're in this building, and they're meeting with me, I gotta tell you, there's 1000 people in this building that know that they're here, and they're waiting for the output of what's going to happen. The ultimate thing is what exactly you said, the general manager of the store is running a $20 million business, they have 3040 50, sometimes 80 people on the payroll, they're serving 1000s of customers a week. They're the ones that create the culture, make the hiring and firing decisions, to all the things that are really important in that store to keep our business running. Everyone in our support office needs to know they're the most important people in the company. It's just one visible way of doing it.

David Novak 12:02 

When you think about your best store managers, what do you see in them? What did they do in terms of building the brand and what's their mindset?

Chris Gheysens 12:11 

It's funny, I probably learned more from our general managers, maybe than any other group, because what they do is quite amazing. I'd say there's different breeds where they lean on different attributes, we have some that are wonderful operators that will have the best conditions, the best service, the best scores of any of our metrics, you'll have others that are the best people and culture leaders that maybe aren't the best at making money inside the box, but are the best at creating a culture that is creating a farm system for future leaders that are unlike any others. So it's a balance, and we think about it and talk about our groups of gems in those ways. And they're not all one or the other, a lot are really good at all of that. But you know, the best of the best in our stores, they can deliver an experience that is really complex, they deliver super high volume in our stores, but one that has everyone singing off the same book, and you can feel it just like I'm sure you when you walk into a Wawa, I can't quite tell if they're overstaffed, or maybe understaffed, I can't quite tell if everything's working, you can tell and feel the culture in that store. And when you feel that and see the interaction between customers and Associates, that's when you know, things are good, you have a good leadership team there,

David Novak 13:26 

you know, you have a motto that is basically I think it's serving your friends and neighbors. That's how you look at your customers. It's not often you hear a business, talk about their customers like that. But what changes in your organization, when you look at your customer that way,

Chris Gheysens 13:43 

I give my my predecessor Howard Stoeckel, that the credit for that friends and neighbors serving friends and neighbors. And it really talks to and it's it's the idea of where we got our higher purpose and calling. It's not about showing up at Wawa and making sandwiches or you know, keeping the floors clean or running register. It really is a place that becomes the town center for many of the communities that we serve. And you are going to see your friends, your neighbors, the people that you know you go to church with or go to soccer with or friends with. And they're gonna see each other and it creates this really unique environment. We talk about and analyze a lot inside of our stores. It becomes the town hall. And so that higher calling for our associates is, you know, make this the best three, four or five minutes of your friends and neighbors day. That's your higher calling join in that, you know over a couple million people a day visit a Wawa across our company. Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if those communities had this place where they could come and take a breath from an break from the hectic world they're in just to get that little recharge not just functionally food and drink, but also emotionally and trust me when I say that There are 1000s of evidence points around that, that we really create. And this, you know, this emotional connection that transcends anything that a business should do. But it's wonderful people that while while doing that every day,

David Novak 15:12 

well, you're obviously doing something, right. Because, you know, in Philadelphia itself, there's actually a Wawa day. How do you celebrate that day as a company internally,

Chris Gheysens 15:22 

so that started with just some fun and giving back. So April 16, is our anniversary of the first Wawa that opened in 1964. And we years ago, started to create the Wawa Foundation, and really channeled our philanthropy that was all grassroots and gave us a day an opportunity to recognize some of the great nonprofit charitable partners in the region in Philadelphia, give them a little lift to their cause, and put them on center stage. And as well, it was free coffee day well, on David, we get a lot of interest in free coffee day. So and when you give away free coffee, and you help support some of the great organizations doing wonderful things, it becomes a pretty recognizable day. And it's been great to continue that each and every year and throughout all of the markets that we're in now. So yeah, it's fun we'd like to have and find opportunities to have fun with our customers fun with our communities, when we can,

David Novak 16:19 

you know, speaking to customers, you obviously have an intimate relationship with your customers, and you study them very closely. And I read somewhere, that your customers actually hold the door for people behind them longer. You know, you've actually studied this. And what does that tell you?

Chris Gheysens 16:36 

I was just with a group of senior leaders for dinner, we have this exact conversation to a person, they will tell you if they're Wawa regulars, this is a real thing. They feel it, they see it. And it's the exchange of thank yous. And the way I say it internally, or even when I speak with folks externally is you just get an extra step or two, is what we would tell you. So you know that that sort of time when you walk in, you open a door anywhere in the world around you, and you look to see if someone's coming behind you. And there's that period of time it's a gray space of do you hold it? Or do you go in and let the door you know, close and the next person gets it at why why you get a couple extra steps is what I like to say that the person is a little further away. But they know when they get in the store, that they're going to see them around the coffee Island, they're going to be waiting for a sandwich that they just ordered together. And odds are, like I said earlier that they're going to know each other from town or know, or they're going to start talking sports. So they're going to start talking about the current events of the day, but in a way that is terribly comfortable, casual open. And so while it's almost a fail, if you just walk in and close the door behind your let it close behind you without looking. It's an amazing thing. We actually I want to study this. And I want to get a billboard that sort of counts how many times the door has been held at Wawa. But we're working on the visual analytics to make that happen. We'll see if it's possible.

David Novak 18:03 

Well, you're famous for your customer experiences and one of your famous customer experience happened to include country star Keith Urban. Can you tell us about that one?

Chris Gheysens 18:13 

Yeah, that was just in a small, nondescript, we would call legacy older nonfuel Wawa store in southern New Jersey, and apparently he was in town for a concert and wanted to go visit something over there. And I believe he needed a little help money wise, or the person next to him did but anyway, he made a great connection right there at the store in line with a customer walked outside took a picture with the customer and of course made the customer's day she was a huge fan. And it just goes to show you that that connection that happens in the store can happen with anyone and the really great thing is is my understanding wonderful person really was just open and sincere. And that's exactly what the Wawa customer experience and really what customers bring when they show up at Wawa.

David Novak 19:03 

Yeah, I understand that he he forgot his wallet, or paid for it. You know, I love that. I think that's good. You know, I was thinking myself, you know, if you measure how long your customers hold the doors for others, I got asked you and I bet you know the answer to this. Okay. How much time do your customers spend in the store?

Chris Gheysens 19:24 

Depends on the day part of the occasion. The one we track the most closely is the morning. And it's a hair under four minutes. It's just between three minutes 50 seconds and four minutes from when they walk in the door and walk out the door. That one's important. Research says if they're in the store more than five minutes as good as we are and no matter how great we make the experience after five minutes, what we stand for is quick in and out the experience that satisfaction goes down how to customers

David Novak 19:53 

curiously, how do they define fast today? And how do you look at speed of service versus getting to getting To know your customers because you want to have this customer experience. And yet you you want to be fast? How do you balance those two things?

Chris Gheysens 20:07 

Yeah, we have some moments of truth, we call them inside the store. And they're the opportunities where you don't have a Wawa, of course, that long, intimate relationship where you can have a five minute conversation. It does happen sometimes, but not often. And the reality is we train but also hire for culture and empower our associates. In those moments of truth, to just connect with customers in a small way, what's a moment of truth, I'm walking down an aisle to go and address something and I walked past the customer. Just say hello, how are you? How's your day How you been? If you're at, you know, the hoagie area making hoagies and customers are waiting, just engage with a little eye contact, and again with the customer there, because that's a point where there's downtime when it comes to time overall, you know, that is a challenge, get people in and out quickly, but also make an experience that will remember, and for us, it starts with the the idea of of just convenience, care for their time, what customers tell us is look, we get it, sometimes it's busy, sometimes something doesn't go right, I might have to wait a little longer. What I don't like is if you don't really respect my time, so if you're not going to open up that second, or third or fourth register, and I see associates that are just over there in the corner, sort of which never happens really at all. While we're not doing something that looks important. Just respect our time. So that's what we try to do is deploy Associates, and have them recognize those cues so that we're respecting customers times. And when it all comes together. In our perfect days. You can get in and out of a Wawa really quickly, especially with some of the new technology that we've introduced.

Koula Callahan 21:51 

All right, David, before you get back to your conversation with Chris Dyson's I want to talk to you about the importance of self awareness. And I know that you believe it's one of the key characteristics of successful leaders, and I've learned so much from you about how to continue developing self awareness. Why is it so important that leaders have this trait,

David Novak 22:09 

you know, there's many truisms, but one of them for sure is that you have to know yourself to grow yourself. And the only way you can do that is have a high self awareness of who you are today. And that'll help guide you to where you want to go tomorrow. You know, it's one of the reasons why but wrote the book take charge of you how self coaching can transform your life and career. Basically, I want to give people the self coaching tools that can help them maximize their potential. And building self awareness is one of those major things that we all have to do as leaders.

Koula Callahan 22:41 

We talk about this a lot among our team, but when you lack self awareness, really, you kind of stay blind from the things that can really hold you back. And if you don't understand where your blind spots are, it's easy to get caught up and habits or behaviors that just aren't really productive and don't contribute to your growth and personal development.

David Novak 23:00 

And the best leaders take accountability for making this happen themselves. And, again, that's what take charge of you helps you do it gives you the tools that you need to own your career and your development. So I really hope everybody takes the time out to not only read take charge of you, but share it with their team and talk about the learnings within it because it can really be a major driver of team's success and individual success. And you know what all the proceeds go to leadership development because we're passionate at how leaders lead to and making the world a better place by developing better leaders. So so go to Amazon or wherever you buy books and get a copy and see what happens when you take accountability for developing yourself.

Unknown Speaker 23:56 

You also

David Novak 23:56 

have an iconic product that you mentioned, your hoagie is wildly popular. Tell us the story behind that success.

Chris Gheysens 24:05 

Like most things at Wawa, if you go back 3040 years ago, Wawa was similar to other convenience stores. We existed with third other parties inside of our stores, Pizza Hut, yes, Dunkin, and others that we were bringing in to try to build and bring food service credibility to our stores by using others brands. And what customers eventually told us was you don't need to do that. We trust who you are because of your dairy heritage. Because of the operation that you run. Why don't you introduce your own products. And that's where really the hoagie and our breakfast sandwiches were launched, which are two of our iconic platforms. And now, today, if you're gonna get a fresh made drink, like a smoothie, or an espresso based drink cold or hot, or you're going to get a sandwich or a hoagie or a soup, or you're going to get a breakfast sandwich, all of those are Wawa branded products, there's no more other party's inside of our stores. And, you know, that was really from our customers giving us the credibility we'd earned with them to give us the right to go and try that. So, you know, I would say we've iterated on the hogi platform for a long time. And it's still remained sort of the workhorse for us as hoagies go, frankly, our business goes, and, and they've, they've done well,

David Novak 25:24 

that sounds funny, you know, as Hokies go, so does our business go, you know, speaking and funny. You know, Tina Fey, as I understand she actually did a skit on Saturday night, live on your hoagie. Tell us about that.

Chris Gheysens 25:36 

She did. David, I was with our board of directors. And a general manager from a North Jersey store right outside of New York calls and says, the Saturday Night Live producers are just in the store. They said there's a huge skit about Wow, they just bought a whole bunch of hoagies. And that's all they told us. And you know, your heart sort of sinks because you're not sure how that's gonna play out. And she knows the brand, and she had a lot of fun with it. And they've done that a few times. Now, they've had a lot of fun with Wawa, hoagies. And the whole basis is just around Philadelphia, when they have a skit that's based around Philadelphia, or the notion of Philadelphia, it's hard not to pull off the Philadelphia sort of image without having Wawa or the Wawa hoagie in it, which is pretty exciting for us. So they worked out fine. It was awesome. And we haven't had one, I guess in a few years. But that's okay.

David Novak 26:28 

You mentioned your coffee business a little bit earlier, and I had your coffee the last time I was in Philadelphia, and I have to tell you is very good. How important is this category to you? And how do you compete with the likes of Starbucks, and Dunkin Donuts? Which is a big brand in the Northeast? How do you really compete in such a competitive category?

Chris Gheysens 26:49 

Coffee is super competitive. You're exactly right. And in our markets, we do have number one share and drip coffee in the Philadelphia DMA for sure, and most of our other markets and it takes a long time to build that business. Luckily for us, coffee is very habitual. When your taste profile accepts a coffee like wow, it's hard to get you to leave your brand and what you've grown up with. So for us, it's been a long time, we've invested tremendously into our coffee business in terms of from water filtration to the equipment we use. So the science, if you will, behind the coffee, the beans, the roasting is really, really high quality. And we put a lot around that to make sure quality stays the same. We have some innovations happening now that are really fantastic for us. But we watch that category tremendously. And I'll tell you, David, in the height of the pandemic, our coffee business went down over 30%. If you would have told me before COVID, that we lost 30% of our units for some reason in coffee. I couldn't imagine why while being Wawa without that. But what's happened is the diversity of our business that built the order which was in a touchscreen, espresso, those cold drinks that are espresso based, or all of these energy drinks have really replaced and are still continuing to replace the drip coffee business in a way that really has hit an inflection point. So for us, it remains tremendously important. But that built the order, drink that you would think of Allah Starbucks is become even more important for us. Now,

David Novak 28:26 

you mentioned innovation in this category, what's happening that you're most excited about. They're

Chris Gheysens 28:30 

the innovation on the drip coffee business, we have some equipment that we're bringing to market. And you've probably seen most listeners have probably experienced where you press a button and it'll, it'll grind even at home grind and brew a single cup of coffee, which is a good experience at Wow, well, we don't have that. Largely because our volumes are so high, we need so much equipment, or the weight would be too long. And that's an important day part as we've talked about in terms of convenience. And then on that built to order beverage business, you have to be innovative there you see it each season, whether it's fall with pumpkin flavors, whether you know it's candy cane or other with around the holidays now that we're in. So those are important innovations, we're going to launch our own branded energy line next year with a healthy, good for you energy base that you'll be able to get built to order your specifications. And that's really where a lot of the market is going. So we're excited about that and have a bunch in the hopper beyond that.

David Novak 29:29 

As I listened to your talk, one of the things that really strikes me is that you've evolved from leveraging a Pizza Hut brand, to now saying, Hey, we don't need to tap into pizza, its heritage. Let's create our own pizza. If we're going to make a pizza, let's create our own products. That had to be a huge strategic shift for you. What changes did it require for you as CEO to make so that you could move into all these categories because you're a product company now?

Chris Gheysens 29:56 

Yep. And lucky for me while I've been here 25 years a lot Out of that heavy lifting happened with the previous CEO, Howard. And he was the one that really started a lot of these platforms for growth. And we're continuing to innovate on and what it means for us internally is, we have to have product development, sensory food scientists culinary team that are just as good as any restaurant that we compete with and better. And so we have those skills and competencies internally. And our test kitchen is a place that the magic happens. It's a lot we've invested in there. So if you think of Wawa from that regard, we have that culinary side, but then it has to be married up with the Operations Engineering side, we are a packed to the gills Accela freight train running all the time, that's the visual we have internally have, we not just can create great products, they get a taste really good, but we have to deliver them in a timeframe where it really meets a convenience customers need state. So we have engineers that are then using equipment spacing, creating work cells that allow our stores to deliver things consistently, every time every store every day, because that's part of the magic wall, whether I go in and New Jersey or Florida, whether I go in at midnight, or if I go in first thing in the morning, it's got to be the same with I order that product. So for us, all of that comes together in a pretty unique way. And we continue to invest in those platforms, we are launching a new pizza on our own next year. And the tests have been quite phenomenal. We've tried pizza many times in the past, this is our first try, I would say at what is a traditional pizza that you would really compare against what you would find in a pizza or Domino's. And I think it's gonna have a good shot of being better. You know, you've been

David Novak 31:41 

doing this since the 60s. And what does it look like to live in the tension between honoring how things have been an innovating and changing for a better tomorrow,

Chris Gheysens 31:52 

it's a tough one, you really do want to honor certain things, but But you also recognize change is constant. And so for us, what we try to focus on is keeping our purpose our core values really focused in and that tradition of what those values are we talk about and we celebrate them constantly, that really does need to stay the same that culture that's founded in values that are people first. That needs to remain the same. But what you can innovate, what you need to change is what you do. So the why in the center of everything. While that is your anchor, what you do around, it can change because consumers are finicky. And they're going to change and they're going to want new things and new experiences and services. And so we focus innovation on the what there are certain elements of the what that probably are somewhat sacred are we going to always sell hoagies, probably. But there's other elements of our business that what we sell, and what we do today that are going to change, we didn't do catering, we didn't do delivery, we didn't have services like that we didn't even have a built to order espresso based platform 1012 years ago, and those things will change. So that's where we innovate, we innovate, where we have credibility, and can be authentic with our customers and where they want us to move to. So that's where I think we try to draw the staying in the traditions of the past and our values, culture and purpose. But really innovating around what we are the services and offer we provide

David Novak 33:22 

new units a big part of any retail equation, and you're you have a bold goal to double your store count from 900 to 1800 stores by 2030. What's the biggest challenge that you have going into new markets,

Chris Gheysens 33:37 

our biggest new market is just one we went into 10 years ago in Florida. And we've learned a tremendous amount there. And it provides us some confidence and also a playbook for jumping into other new markets. So, you know, I think when we look at our box, we look at our offer the culture we have, we think we have plenty of opportunity, like you said to double the number of stores within about a decade from where we sit here. Now, the biggest challenge is can our culture keep up with that. And so when you have a people first culture, one that, you know, internally feels a bit like family, it's high touch consensus collaborative. As you grow, you don't want to outpace that. And so a lot of our energy is going into trying to make sure that we have the right leaders that we're planting the seeds of culture in our new builds and new markets. And at the same time that some of the really unique institutions that we have, we can scale them and not do away with them and not scale them in a way they feel impersonal, but also really still carry that cultural, that personal feeling as we go into whether it's the Midwest, whether we push into North Carolina, Georgia from the markets we're in now, but I think we have a lot of great success in some of the markets we've been in recently. that'll provide us a pretty good playbook for that.

David Novak 34:51 

Yeah. How would a store be different in Florida versus Philly? Do you carry the same products and let's say I imagine you went from the northeast to Philly. Florida because there's a lot of transplants in Florida, you know. So what happens with your a Florida customer, you come into your Wawa and you don't have what you had in Philly as that ever happened? And how do you respond to that

Chris Gheysens 35:12 

the first day, the first store in Florida, all the best research everything and that you do to go in with your best offer out of the gate. And when we looked at the Florida market, the incidence of iced tea, for example, was not a very high usage, certainly compared to the consumption of it in the mid Atlantic. So we did not bring down our Wawa iced tea, which is a brand that iced tea we sell the most of in our stores up here that comes right out of our dairy and beverage center. The first store, we opened SeaWorld Orlando, Florida, huge turnout. And I remember looking at people observing, they're walking up and down our coldbox aisle, and they looked a bit baffled. And I remember, I stopped a few of them. And they said, Well, I came from your iced tea. And I said, oh boy, you know, I'm sorry, we don't have it. And finally, David, there was a young brother and sister. And as they were walking out of the store without anything, is there anything I can help you find any? They said, Well, we came for your iced tea, but I don't see it. I said I'm so sorry, give the same answer. And they said, Look, we just drove three hours to get your iced tea. I got on the phone. I called up here. I said get I see down here tomorrow. So and they did. And that was one of those big changes that you needed to make, we realized that our our branded products carried a lot more weight, even in a new market than we ever thought. And so we have a core set of products, our branded products food service beverage that we have in every location, when you go down to Florida, our assortment will vary within those categories a bit. So if you're in Florida, for example, you like a breakfast sandwich on a croissant. But if you're in New Jersey, it's got to be on a bagel. Those are the types of things that vary, but not really offered terribly much, Chris, we

David Novak 37:00 

were going to do this podcast and in the hurricane Ian hit Florida and you rightly said hey, I've got to go to Florida. And you're known for serving first leading second as a CEO. How important is that in terms of you representing the culture? And, and what what are some of the things you do to make sure that that you are expanding while was with the cultural values that are critical?

Chris Gheysens 37:27 

It's really important to me, personally, it's important to the senior leadership team. And it's not. These aren't just you know, get on a plane and go take a couple of photo ops as matter of fact, we told the team they couldn't have a photographer with us. This is really about getting on the ground to show you care and to see what we can do to make the lives of our associates better. We had to be there firsthand. So our entire leadership team flew down. We spent the full day we visited 25 stores, the really the stores that were hardest hit from Hurricane en. We wanted to see what was happening just a few days after in terms of the lives of our associates, how were they impacted? And what did we need to do as an organization to support them at home? That was really job one job two was, what did they need at the store level to sort of help with whether it's suppliers product services that our customers needed. And we were one of the first organizations to reopen after after the storm had passed. And you're talking the next day and the stories of heroics from our associates were phenomenal. But you know, those are the types of things that in the storytelling around that, that really Garner's culture and, and we came back, and we made some pretty big changes quickly and with our associates and with our staffing schedules. But you know, the best thing about our culture, and what we saw live is when we talked to a lot of the people that were working our associates in those stores, they were from across the other side of the state, they had already mobilized and were driving two to three hours a day because there was no hotels to stay in, just to support their co workers on the other side of the state, many of which they didn't know they just carried the same brand and umbrella called Wawa. And that culture exuded so that that was the most rewarding thing. Yes, you saw a lot of damage. Yes, you heard some really bad stories. But you also saw our culture and action and storytelling around that. In a market that's only 10 years old for us, but yet that culture is already captured that I think is one of the good ways of trying to share the culture and continuing to propagate through as our growth continues.

David Novak 39:44 

I've heard you say that, you know, stores run the show here. There are no cash registers at the corporate office, you know, what's been your personal journey as a leader for this to go from, you know, something that you might say to a really heartfelt candidate. Action

Chris Gheysens 40:00 

to understand, I think a lot of my leadership philosophy, it really looked at my background, I think, you know, one, I grew up with a father that had carwashes, and worked hard, didn't have a strong, deep educational background, but he just knew to work hard and treat people well. And I witnessed that all the time. And frankly, much of my leadership formation was here at Wawa and much of that witness, Dick would are really our founder, modern day founder and CEO for decades, and Howard Stoeckel, have this idea that if you put people first, it's always going to win in the long run. And specifically, you know, Dick was the one that that would go to the stores, and really make sure that they were heard listened to and, and propped up as the most important in the business. So that just always stuck with me. And you know, throughout my time here at Wawa for 25 years, I've had opportunities to work closely with our store general managers at various times. And I always walked away seeing just such great convictions, such resolves such strong leadership, such loyalty, that it's hard to run from people like that, you just want to run towards them, and make sure that you're supporting and giving everything you can so that that's only grown for me, because we're a pretty small company when it comes to overhead. And we're pretty centralized. And, you know, corporate offices as they grow, they can tend to believe that they're the center of the universe. And I just never really want that to happen. A lot of good things happen in our corporate office, a lot of great ideas and strategies get born here, but they just don't work. And they won't come to life without great execution. And I think that's what's made Wawa successful over the years great execution. And that's rests right on the general managers across almost 1000 stores.

David Novak 41:57 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Chris Geisinger in just a moment. Well, I don't know about you, but I got chills on Sunday afternoon, watching my good friend, John ROM, when the 2023 Masters What a performance. And what a moment seeing him win on the birthday of his fellow Spaniard, the late great sevi Ballesteros, it was also the 40th anniversary of 70s. When at the Masters, you know, sometimes the stars are just aligned, and they were aligned for John rom to win this year's masters. The history that we're talking about here is just tremendous. And it's exactly what John rom talked about when he joined me on the podcast last year. For him, history is a guide and a teacher. And when you can draw lessons and insights from the past, you give yourself a massive advantage.

Speaker 1 42:53 

I like to know who paved the ground before me and be thankful for what they've done. And, clearly, there's been some great examples of how people have excelled in the game of golf, and how they've done what they've done. You don't have to reinvent the wheel here, just try to be the best player you can be. And I think you can learn a lot from this past players, obviously, the game has changed. But you know, by knowing what's happened in the past, and what they've done in tournaments, even getting just a little one quotes you might get in an interview, you might get something that might help you be a better player.

David Novak 43:24 

This whole conversation is full of insights into how John plays and coaches himself. And there's a ton of takeaways for anyone who wants to be at the very top of their game, scroll back in the feed and give it a listen. It's episode 87 here on how leaders lead.

One of the things that really reinforces your people first mindset is that I know your company is privately held as family owned, and about half of the stock as I understand it is actually owned by the employees. You know, how did that come about? And that has to be a huge competitive advantage for you. It is

Chris Gheysens 44:05 

we're one of the largest employee owned companies in the country, we have about 40% of Wawa. So our biggest shareholders owned by a trust that exists for over 20,000 of our Wawa Associates. We're just now expanding the eligibility to reduce the requirements so that you can really become an owner almost day one starting at Wawa now. And what that does is a couple of things. One, the history there goes back and we're 30 years with that plan. It's it's one of the oldest plans in the country with the laws that have changed in the early 90s. And it allows us to share ownership and give line of sight to the people that make it all happen every day our associates throughout the company. So you know for me, David, I work you know, as with a family of founding family who still has a big chunk of ownership and they're still vested in Wawa and what they said years ago was we want to share that with our associates and you have associates that work at Wow, for 20 years, 30 years, it's not unusual for us to celebrate anniversaries of 50 years that well. So we take a big chunk of our profits, we put it into Wawa stock each year, we divvy it up to the ESOP and give it for free to our associates that work for us. And it's just great alignment, when you have a culture in a service industry, that is people first that has this warm family feeling and our best days. And then you also have alignment with you know, when you execute at store level, when you when you take that extra leap of customer service, you're not just doing Wawa, this organization, good, you're doing your own self good, because it it really builds your own wealth long term. And we've taught people here that wealth creation through ownership and accompany is an important thing and what they will do in terms of culture and going the extra mile is simply over the top. It has a huge impact. Harvard studied it others have studied at Rutgers as an employee ownership, center that studied it, and there's real value that we get from it. But that's the icing on the cake, you do it because it's the right thing to do for people to take care of them over the long term.

David Novak 46:11 

You know, Chris, you started out as an accountant, as I understand it, Deloitte and then you came to Wawa as CFO, tell us the story of how you evolved from a financial person into such a customer and culture focused executive. You've kind of broken the mold here, you know, at least in terms of the stereotypes that people might have.

Chris Gheysens 46:33 

In fairness, I didn't start here as chief financial officer. But I started in finance and accounting and saw many roles over a number of years and ascended the Chief Financial Officer about 15 years ago. You know, David, I don't know whether I fully lost if you will, all of the CPA in me. But when I worked at Deloitte, I think the best way to say it is I never really felt fulfilled with that role. And it's nothing against that organization and what they do. I mean, there's wonderful people there and but it was always centered around people for me, and not really numbers. I think my brain works in numbers at time, but my heart tends to win the day. And as I grew here, and like I said earlier, just had the opportunity to see leadership, you know, someone who ran store operations, early in my career tapped me to go and work alongside of him, Harry McHugh. And I learned that there's just this whole other world to some extent, finance, accounting type people have a certain way of leadership at times. And I learned that, you know, this person had the biggest heart and really was about leading groups of people and motivating groups of people. And that was just fascinating to me early in my career. So I think I was just blessed to just to have an opportunity to be mentored coach and, and observe great leaders here. And that's what I think, just helped propel my career to the extent it has,

David Novak 47:59 

one of the leaders that I had the privilege of working with yum brands was Scott bergrin, and you know, he's on your board. And he has said that there's no leader that he's ever seen, that's been so philanthropic and such a believer in giving back to the community. And you do that from your heart. And it's obviously paying big dividends, what drives that?

Chris Gheysens 48:22 

It talks about a heart, Scott burgeron is someone I admire tremendously because of the size of his heart and his innovative spirit that he has. And I know you've worked closely with him in your career. It's funny, David, when I was promoted and announced, back in 2012, that I become the next CEO. People knew me as a CFO, they immediately thought, we're gonna go into a cost cutting mode, we're going to slow down everything, you know, wages won't grow as much, because that's the stereotype. And I like to think the opposite. I sort of knew the whole landscape pretty deeply from a financial picture at Wawa. And I know what makes our economics tick really well. And at the same time, I learned in that journey, what makes me and this organization tick, and it's not cutting, it's not, you don't cut your way to success and growth. You need it sometimes. But it's really investing. It's investing in people. It's investing in the communities you serve. And frankly, I think one's measure of success isn't the stock price growth, they had a CEO or it's not the revenue growth, it's the impact they left on the people in the communities they served when they're done. So that's how I'm trying to measure my success. And I think Luckily, I'm at a place where the values and the culture at Wawa fits that pretty good.

David Novak 49:39 

I think the interesting thing, Chris, for all our listeners, is that you're doing that. And yet, if you benchmark your financial performance versus all your competitors, you blow them out of the water. Your financial metrics are better than all of the people who are trying to save their way to success. So, so good on you. You know, it's amazing seem to think that a convenience store could be a cult brand. You know, like Chick fil A is a cold brand, Southwest Airlines cold brand, what advice would you have for someone who wants to make that an objective?

Chris Gheysens 50:14 

Thank you for that I, we strive for that every day, you can never take any of that for granted tremendous respect for Chick fil A, we've benchmark with Southwest in the past. You know, for me, I think in the retail business, when you think about a cult brand, it starts with a few things, one, you have to take care of inside the business first, your associates have to realize and, and grow to be part of something special. And it's not just about next quarter for us as a private company, I gotta tell you, it's rigorous and of governance just like a public company. But we tend to look long term and we invest in our associates more than than what maybe some of our competitors would do. That would be one, you got to make them believe there's a higher purpose here that it's not just a functional experience, it's not transactional, that's got to be really good, though. We have this customer relationship ladder that we've shown internally, and it starts with satisfaction and convenience, you do have to do the basics really well and do them well all the time. Not that we do, but you got to strive for that. And then you got to find moments and opportunities to create an emotional connection. And that's where I think if it's authentic, if it comes from the bottom up from your culture from within, you can really create something special over a long period of time, it doesn't happen overnight. I think we've had a wonderful foundation here with an offer that resonates. And now we have a culture and we have a group of associates that really show up every day to to follow that that purpose of fulfilling someone's life making it just a little bit better in the time I have. And those opportunities when you can stitch them together and find the moments of making an emotional connection, you know, be the cheerleader that they need that day, be someone where they can, they can hug or cry on your shoulder, which happens quite a bit at a Wawa, they tend to make your organization find a place in a customer's heart a little differently than just the place I can go and get something good to eat. And that's what I think our associates at store level have done that, frankly, we've just created a platform for them to do it and be their authentic selves. And it's pretty amazing to watch.

David Novak 52:25 

Chris, this conversation has been so much fun. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this?

Chris Gheysens 52:31 

Yes. Ready?

David Novak 52:33 

What is one word that best describes you?

Chris Gheysens 52:36 

Purpose?

David Novak 52:38 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Chris Gheysens 52:42 

I'd want to walk in in the President's footsteps for a day and just see how the constituents and how that plays out. It's just a calling of more responsibility around leadership.

David Novak 52:52 

And what's your biggest pet peeve?

Chris Gheysens 52:54 

Lack of ownership. If you don't take ownership and account personal accountability?

David Novak 52:59 

What's been your most unique trip

Chris Gheysens 53:02 

to the island of Anguilla?

David Novak 53:03 

I thought she was going to be the visit to the Pope.

Chris Gheysens 53:06 

No. Yeah. You know what? I have to take that back. You're right. It's got to be the trip to Rome, which actually took my daughter's the delegation of the World Meeting of Families in preparation for the papal visit here in Philadelphia, that would have been in 2015, I believe. Yep. Summer of 2015. That was quite fantastic.

David Novak 53:26 

What's your biggest source for learning?

Chris Gheysens 53:28 

Just the people around me, learning from individuals, no matter their background, no matter what role they have. That's been my biggest source. And frankly, it's store level associates and leaders at store level.

David Novak 53:43 

If you turned on your radio in your car, what would we hear? You would hear

Chris Gheysens 53:47 

que YW News Radio almost constantly, which is our local news, which you only need 20 minutes of it. But I have about a 45 minute commute. It's still there the whole time.

David Novak 53:59 

What's your favorite? I can't believe this is happening to me moment.

Chris Gheysens 54:03 

When I met the Pope in person in Philadelphia. That was definitely one of those forever,

David Novak 54:09 

was something about you few people would know.

Chris Gheysens 54:11 

I grew up working on boats during the summer, so much so that I got I was one of the youngest captains at 19. And I bought a boat and had a captain's license for 100 tons up to 100 miles offshore and I ran my own business through college.

David Novak 54:29 

And great, you know, that's the end of the lightning round. But curiously, do you have anything in your office that you keep to remind you of what the business is all about?

Chris Gheysens 54:38 

I have a lot of them. The thing that comes to mind for me is there's a patient family at Children's Hospital Philadelphia that I'd gotten a chance to meet because of a I'm involved there as well as well has been and they wrote a letter of just how important Wawa was to them. When they were traveling from out of town up to Philadelphia for their their visits there they needed to be For for not great reasons at the hospital often, and what role Wawa played in just making their daughter's day and life during that time, so much better. And so that I hold as a pretty high standard of you know how much we need to nurture this brand and culture.

David Novak 55:17 

Awesome. You know, I follow you on Twitter, and I see that your son is a darn good basketball player, how do you balance the family and the need to be present when it matters?

Chris Gheysens 55:27 

David, I hope one day I look back and hope I did a good job at that my older son is a very good basketball player. And I've had the opportunity through when he was younger to even help coach, again, always with if I can be there type of mantra, but I made it quite a bit. And it's been just an amazing experience between he and I, and a lot of our relationships from a basketball court. So you know, it's hard to balance there are just things you need to say no to, I think you would know, if I said yes to every request, I'd be out of the office every night of the week, every day of the year. And you just need to find the time the things that are really important to the business really important to you and save those other times and protect your family time because you're never going to get it back. All right, last

David Novak 56:13 

question, what's the one most important bit of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders,

Chris Gheysens 56:18 

you know, the one I go to tried and true is, is you really have to know yourself. You really, and it takes time, especially younger leaders know who you are, know what you stand for, understand your authentic self and find an organization where your public voice and your private voice can be the same. Because your values after knowing yourself and really understanding them, they really have to match the organization that you work in that you're a part of, because if they don't, you'll see separation and your public and private voice and soul others and that's not going to work.

David Novak 56:56 

So great advice. And, Chris, I want to thank you so much. Because you mentioned that, you know, you have to say no to some things or you'd be working 24/7 There aren't enough hours in the day. And I can't tell you how thankful I am that you took the time to spend an hour with us. Because I think that there's some gold here, there's some great gold here. There's There's wisdom in the way you run that company and what you and your team and the founders have really created so congratulations and and thanks for sharing so freely.

Chris Gheysens 57:30 

absolutely appreciate that. Thank you. It was good that the lightning round was tough. Now I'm gonna have to think about some of those questions. That'll be my ride home later tonight thinking about what what should I have said on that one, but I appreciate it. This has been really fun and the time flew.

David Novak 57:55 

Well, I don't know about you. But I hope Wow comes to my neck of the woods here in Louisville soon. So I can get hands on one of those legendary hoagies. But hey, even without the hoagies I really admire what Chris and his team are building a Wawa. I hope you've seen today just how important it is to invest in your team. When you train them and develop them and tie them into the success of your business. You get all kinds of benefits, better customer service, higher productivity, more growth, more profitability. I've seen it happen over and over again. And it's true. When you do the right thing, the right things happen. Prioritize people's wellbeing and happiness. And you'll build a culture of trust, loyalty and excellence that will pay off in the long term. It really is a win win. So let me ask you, what opportunities do you have to lean into this idea with your customers and your team members? Ask yourself this week? Where can you prioritize your culture and invest in people or your community? How could that strengthen your business overall? So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders know that when you do the right thing, the right things happen. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Annie young Scribner, CEO of Wella.

Speaker 2 59:12 

You know, I've always known that I have opportunities in certain areas and strengthen others. And that's like everybody. And I think that when you create a team, you can actually create that perfect person. And it has to be a team that's diverse, otherwise, you'll have the same opportunity areas. And so people that challenged me in an uncomfortable way, do the best on helping me grow the business and rethink what we're going to go do.

David Novak 59:45 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday, you get to listen in well I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point To give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be