David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Have you ever wondered what it really takes to be excellent at something? If so, you're going to love today's episode with Geoff Colvin. He's a senior editor at large for Fortune Magazine, and one of the most curious and articulate people I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know over the years. See, Jeff is also fascinated by excellence in human performance, especially for business leaders. He spent decades talking to experts analyzing research and asking big questions. And today, you get to benefit from his know how, if there's anything you want to get better at, whether it's at work or at home, this conversation basically gives you a playbook for it. Plus, we get into some bigger questions around AI. And the skills leaders really need to be focusing on right now. I gotta tell you, your mind is going to be spinning with Big Insights. So let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Geoff Colvin?

Jeff, you may recall that I first got to know you when you did an article on yum brands and the power of our recognition culture. And I have to tell you, I've been looking forward to getting to ask you the questions this time. So thanks for being on the show.

Geoff Colvin 1:46 

I'm so glad you asked me I remember that article very well, as you might well imagine and visiting you and so many are your colleagues in Louisville and seeing how you do what you do. And it was a it was a great experience. I can tell you, it was a very popular article too. So thank you,

David Novak 2:01 

you know, in your book, and we're going to talk about some of your books today, you talk about the importance of a supportive environment for world class performance. What do you mean by a supportive environment?

Geoff Colvin 2:12 

Fundamentally, it's an environment in which a young person can try different things, and be supported in what they want to do without excessive criticism. It's a fine line to walk, but be encouraged to do what they do, given the freedom to try different things, and be sort of gently pushed, but not shoved. I'll tell you though, it really summed it up for me when I was working on the book, got to know the preeminent researcher in the field of great performance, who is a professor at Florida State named Anders Ericsson. And he said to me, at one point, you know, the real frontier, on the research here is about parenting. He said, the ability of a parent to make a kid understand that there is a path to greatness. And it's not easy. It's not short. But it's there, to make them appreciate that and want to go down that path without forcing them too much. That's the art that some parents have, and some don't.

David Novak 3:29 

Now, Jeff, I know you went off and went to Harvard, which is a great accomplishment, because everyone knows how great that school is. And you got your NBA at NYU. What's your view on the NBA today? Is that a must have for aspiring leaders,

Geoff Colvin 3:44 

I really don't think so at all, it's a great thing to to get. I mean, you learn some stuff there, that will be valuable to you, if you're going to be a leader in business, at a lot of business schools, the curriculum is being reimagined redone, in ways that actually help leaders, I think, meaning what we're seeing at Harvard Business School, Stanford Business School, and a bunch of others. They're changing the curriculum, to emphasize the skills of human interaction. They are putting people in situations where that's what they have to develop, they didn't used to do that, you know, it was all just classroom stuff. They are understanding that the skills of human interaction are going to be the most valuable skills in the years ahead and their training. Um, so it is, it's a great thing. But I'll tell you, I know so many great leaders who don't have MBAs, that it's clear to me, it's not mandatory.

David Novak 4:45 

You're obviously a big thinker about what's going on in the world and in business, and, you know, how do you develop your views and figure out what you really want to write about?

Geoff Colvin 4:56 

Well, a lot of it is just talking to some Many people, one of the great great things about my job is that I do get to see a lot of businesses and a lot of leaders up pretty close and talk to them. And another thing that helps is, I mean, I'm sincerely interested in this, I'm not doing something because I have to do it, I, I'm genuinely interested in all this stuff I get to do. And so you accumulate a sort of critical mass of information, you start being able to connect things you hear, and that's where it comes from. But there's another element in your question that's really important, which is how do I decide what I want to write about or what I think, like so many people, I realized, I don't really know what I think until I have to sit down and write it. That's when you figure out the cure, you've left something out that you're not being logical, you got to sit down to write it before, at least I do before I really even know what I think,

David Novak 5:56 

you know, I always say there's nothing more sobering than looking at a blank sheet of a blank computer screen and know that you've got to fill it up with your ideas and your creativity. Yep, it's intimidating. You know, Jeff, I really loved your best selling book. Talent is Overrated. What really separates world class performance from everybody else? What led you to write that book?

Geoff Colvin 6:18 

It came from an article I wrote, for Fortune, an editor at fortune came and said, We're doing an issue about excellence, you know about great performance. And do you have any ideas? Is there anything you'd like to write about that? And I said, Well, yeah, actually, there is I've, I've been assembling sort of random information about it for years, mostly just in my head. But I'd love a chance to write about it. And so they said, Okay, great. Go for it. So I did. And that's when I realized, which I hadn't realized previously, that there was a large body of research, scholarly research on the topic of great performance, and I hadn't known about it. And I realized that hardly anybody else in the general audience knew about it. And it had this clear message in it about where great performance really comes from. So I wrote an article in Fortune, about that. And in all my years at Fortune, and I've been there a lot of years, I have never in my life had a response to an article, like I had to that one, I had readers tell me that they read that article aloud to their little kids, when you could write an awful lot of Fortune articles without anybody ever reading them aloud to their little kids. But for this one they did and that's when I realized, okay, there's much more to be said here. There's an appetite for this. And so I contacted a publisher I've known for a long time, and he just immediately said, Yes, and off, we went.

David Novak 8:01 

Well, I want to dig into that content as we go through this discussion with each other. You know, back when I interviewed Rory McIlroy, he said that he didn't like the notion of being called a natural talent. Now, here's a kid where they had videos of him swinging a golf club when he was three years old. And he looked like he was destined to be a pro. But he said the reason he didn't like being called a natural golfer, is that belies all the hard work that it takes to become great at what you do. What's your view on a so called child prodigy and natural talent?

Geoff Colvin 8:33 

The premise of the book really, is that great performance comes from a particular process that the researchers called deliberate practice, and we'll get into that, but the gist of the research says further, that natural talent, you know, something you're literally born with an ability to do something fairly specific, like play golf that you're born with. The research says that either is way overrated, or it may be it doesn't even exist. And what Rory said, is a perfect example of what most of the world's great performers are thinking. When people say to them, oh, wow, you have an incredible natural talent. You know, and people like him know that those folks are trying to be nice. So they don't say anything, but inwardly. What we've learned is a lot of great performers resent it. They resent being told that they have a great natural talent for exactly the reason Rory said, because that makes it sound like it was easy for them to get where they got and what he said to you. What they all know is that it wasn't easy. They had to work harder than most of us can ever imagine. To get where they go Got. And sometimes when I try to explain that to people, they're skeptical. But when somebody like Rory McIlroy says it himself and he's one of the world's greatest, you realize there's something to it.

David Novak 10:14 

Now you've studied this. So what generally is the true source to top level talent? And I know you talk about deliberate practice as being one of those things?

Geoff Colvin 10:23 

Absolutely. If you had to boil it down, that's really what it comes down to it is deliberate practice, which is a very specifically defined thing, which I'll describe is deliberate practice, done, typically four hours a day, every day, for years. And what the world's greatest performers have done is go through that. And it's hard. It's not easy. But they've gone through that typically for years. So what is it? Well, one thing I learned when I did all the research for the book, is that deliberate practice is not what most of us think of when we think of practice. I discovered, for example, that what I do out on the driving range at the golf course, is a pathetic example of deliberate practice, it's not even close. Fortunately, although it's very specific, it's pretty simple to describe, here's what deliberate practices. One, it is an activity that is designed, especially for you, at your current stage, in the development of whatever it is you're doing, whether it's playing golf, or playing the violin, or doing surgery or flying a jet aircraft, or whatever it is, it's designed, especially for you at your current state of development to it is designed to push you just beyond your current abilities, it doesn't try to push you way beyond your current abilities, because then you're just lost, you got no idea what to do. And it doesn't allow you to operate within your current abilities, because then you don't grow. It is constantly pushing you just past what you're able to do right now. It can be repeated at high volume, that turns out to be very important. And the fourth thing, you're getting continual feedback, you can't get better if you don't know how you're doing. That's what deliberate practice boils down to. And that's the activity repeated, as I said, typically four hours a day for years on end, that all the great performers, regardless of their field, typically have in common.

David Novak 12:33 

So that's really a great way to maximize your practice those three things that you just talked about.

Geoff Colvin 12:37 

Yes, that's exactly right. If you want it to do you some good. You know, that's the way to get maximum benefit from your practice time.

David Novak 12:47 

Now, is that really getting you into what you call the Learning Zone?

Geoff Colvin 12:50 

Yes, that's a great Yes, that's exactly it. A good friend of both you and me. Professor Knoll, tishy, at the University of Michigan, puts that very well. He says, Look, there's your comfort zone, just outside that there's your learning zone. And just outside that your there's your panic zone. And the the idea is to keep yourself in the Learning Zone, just outside your comfort zone.

David Novak 13:16 

Now you talk about taking time, hours and hours and years and years to really get better. You compare it to almost like a rose bloom. Yeah, talk about that.

Geoff Colvin 13:26 

Yeah, it takes time. And it depends on the level of competition in your field of endeavor. So it look if you want to be one of the world's great violinists, or one of the world's great golfers, or one of the world's great business leaders, these are fields in which there is intense international competition. And in any field with that characteristic, it's going to take typically 1000s of hours of deliberate practice, before you reach the highest levels, in another field in which there really isn't much intense international competition, you may be able to become a big success with fewer hours. But in most of the fields that most of us are interested in, it's going to take a lot of time. And you know, when you realize 1000s of hours, the typical person who's working a 40 hour week, does 2000 hours of work in a year. And that's work. That's not deliberate practice, that's just doing the job. Deliberate practice is something separate. So, you know, think about 2000 hours, that's a year full time. And that's not nearly enough for success at the highest levels of the most intense, intensely competitive fields.

David Novak 14:46 

So what you're really saying here is that a focused work ethic above and beyond the day to day job description is what will really separate you from the pack.

Geoff Colvin 14:55 

That's absolutely right. And there a couple important points to make here. One, since that's an awful lot of hours, people sometimes get discouraged. And they say, well, TD, and I'm exhausted at the end of the day as it is, how can I really do 1000s of hours of deliberate practice? On top of that? Well, there are ways for people who are working to incorporate deliberate practice into their work. But there's another thing that needs to be pointed out, too. It may take 1000s of hours to become the world's greatest or among the world's greatest, but you don't have to follow the road all the way to its end, just doing this at all, will make all of us better. dozens of hours, hundreds of hours, will pay off, we will get better from doing it. And that raises the question of, Do you really want to be the world's greatest? It may be possible we know the road to getting there. But the price is very high, and not everybody's gonna want to do it, which is fine.

David Novak 16:06 

Is that really why it's so important for us to love what we do in order to really become world class, because I always tell everybody be an avid learner. Because if you're an avid learner, you need to love what you do. So you want to learn more, and you go to work every day and say, Hey, man, I'm gonna get better and better.

Geoff Colvin 16:22 

Right? That's great advice. David, that is great advice. I mean, think about what I've said about deliberate practice constantly pushing you just beyond what you're able to do. Well, what does that mean? What it means is, by definition, you're going to be making mistakes, you're going to be having failures. Because if you're trying to do stuff that you can't quite do, at least initially, you're gonna make mistakes. Well, you know, making mistakes every day is not what most people consider fun. So why does anybody do it? This is actually a big question that researchers have faced. Why does anybody do this? Why does any anybody put themselves through this? And the answer is, because they just have a passion for it. And this is really deep, and the research I don't think has gotten to the bottom of it. But to have a passion for it, something that makes you just want to do it, you can't even explain why you just want to do it. That's critical to keep you going through all of this.

David Novak 17:28 

You know, what I think you're talking about here is the mindset that you have to have as a leader, and you know, you talk about deliberate practice, but what have you learned about developing the right mindset for world class performance?

Geoff Colvin 17:40 

A mindset is a crucial term here. Because you've got to get into the mindset where you realize that this is just part of your life. And you're always thinking this way. I mean, not sports, and music are the field where this is most obvious, right? We talk a lot when we talk about deliberate practice. And a lot of the research has been done in fields of sports and music, because that's where we typically spend huge amounts of time practicing, and a relatively smaller amount of time actually performing. In the world of business, you know, in the world of work that most of us are in, it's not that way at all, we spend virtually all our time actually performing, and very little time, typically doing what you'd call practice. And so what you have to do is find ways to practice within the work. And you can do that. If you have the right mindset, exactly what you're talking about. You're thinking even while you're working. Okay, what skill am I working on right now? You have an ability to step outside yourself and look at the situation, what am I working on right now? And how am I doing? You know, when I'm talking with someone, when I'm giving someone a performance evaluation, when I'm making a sales presentation? What am I trying to do here? And how am I doing? And then you think afterwards? How did that go? What did I miss? Now that I think back? How could I have done it better? It's a little more work than most of us put in. But it really, really pays off. The key is having this mindset, you're always doing deliberate practice.

David Novak 19:22 

And Jeff, you write about constantly deepening your knowledge of your profession and your business.

Geoff Colvin 19:27 

Yes, yes. And that's a great point, to be the world's greatest or to be great. You have to have a lot of simple domain knowledge. And that may sound obvious, but it's important because there was a time when a lot of you know, suppose it authorities thought the opposite was the truth, especially in business. There was a view for a long time, that if a person was trained as a great manager, they had these managerial and leadership tools. They could take them into any job into any field and apply them and succeed. And eventually, it became clear that that's not right. You need those things. But you also need knowledge of the domain, you really need to just know a lot about your field. And that's something that we all have to do, you really got to put in the hours to learn all of that. And by the way, it one more point. It's another reason that says, nobody is a natural born, great performer, because nobody's born with any knowledge about anything. after all.

David Novak 20:39 

That's what I was going to ask you. Are you a natural born leader or leaders made? And I think your point is that leaders are made?

Geoff Colvin 20:47 

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's great news. You know, people say, well, it's bad news, because that means I'm not a natural, right? Well, no, but it means that you can be a fantastic leader, because leaders are made.

David Novak 21:03 

Because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 or $1,000, or heck, even $20,000, to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you. And it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to how leaders lead.com and start my leadership class. It's really and truly free. And after you take this class, you're going to feel more confident in your role. And you'll be on your way to get the big things done with your team. Go check it out at how leaders lead.com.

You know, leaders do need good coaches. And yes, there's no question about that. What in your experience really makes a world class coach,

Geoff Colvin 22:03 

it's often overlooked, especially in the world of business and becoming a business leader. But there is a reason that the world's greatest golfers all have coaches, even at the at the very top of their game, they still have teachers whom they go to the the skills of the coach or teacher are different from the skills of the leader. Well, first of all, it's knowledge of how people progress in that field, whatever it may be, let's say it's business leadership, it's a knowledge of how people typically progress. And then it's an ability to observe the student, and figure out how that person is performing. And then to give that person good, honest, rigorous feedback on how they're doing. Remember, the deliberate practice framework requires continuous feedback. Well, that generally requires somebody else to observe us, we're not very good at judging ourselves, typically, right? We need some other pair of eyes and pair of ears, looking at us and watching us do what we do. And then giving us the feedback on how we're doing. And so the coach can do those things, and knows how leaders progress. In other words, okay, now, you're good at this. What's the next thing you need to get good at?

David Novak 23:30 

If there was one coach, you could have people really study to learn on how to do it? Who would you refer them to?

Geoff Colvin 23:36 

I happen to be a big fan of someone who was also a great business leader. And I'm thinking of Jack Welch. There are people who nowadays it for reasons I don't understand. Even disparage him a little, it's nonsense. He was one of the all time greats. And he was not only a great leader, he was a great coach. He had an ability to observe people, and to give them feedback in a way that is absolutely candid. He has an ability to tell people, what they're doing well, and what they need to get better at, with complete honesty. And he says things to people that most of us would have trouble saying to people, but he has an ability to say things to people that are, you know, tough or maybe unwelcome. But he can do it in a way that shows he's not angry at you. He's not demeaning you. You know, he just is giving you the facts. And that ability is rare. In my experience.

David Novak 24:46 

Let me tell you, I've had the great benefit of getting some great coaching from Jack Welch myself. And you know, one of the things that I appreciated about Jack and you, Jeff, is that you take the time to codify your learning, so that you can give back to others, do you find a giving nature critical and being a coach?

Geoff Colvin 25:04 

Yes, yes, it is. It's like somebody who's good at anything else, kind of what we were talking about. They've got to like what they do. And coaches have got a like, coaching, which means imparting their wisdom. And it is a different skill. It's a different skill from performing in itself.

David Novak 25:26 

Let me ask you this, one of the people you've interviewed and studied, which person surprised you the most, after you met him or her? And you were so shocked that they reached this pinnacle of success?

Geoff Colvin 25:39 

Well, that's a really good question. And it's a kind of a hard question. Because I've met so many of them who were really terrific. Here's a little story that I think really exemplifies what you're talking about. I do a lot of moderating of panels at conferences and stuff like that fortune conferences and other conferences, a lot of on stage interviewing of people. And probably the strangest one I ever had to moderate was a panel of two people. This was some years ago, but it was two people. And a lot of folks I talked to know one or the other these two people but may not know both of them. So here are the two people. One was Russell Simmons, who is in the world of hip hop music, the great entrepreneur, tremendously successful founder of record label, fashion label, and he's very, very successful in the world of hip hop music. On stage with him, the other person I was supposed to interview together with was General Norman Schwarzkopf. The US General who commanded American forces in the first Iraq war 1990 91, a four star general, and a hip hop mogul, you know, they'd never met. And I suspect this is only a guess, that actually not only that, neither one of them knew who the other one was. Okay, they had no idea. And yet, by the end of the interview, they loved each other. Because what they found was that the principles of leadership they were talking about, were the same. They were in the two most different worlds you could possibly imagine, I would say. And yet, they discovered that what they had to say about leadership was exactly the same. They were just endorsing one another by the end of this thing, you know, big hug afterwards. It was it was really something but it shows you that, you know, there aren't any secrets here. There really aren't

David Novak 27:53 

that? Well, that's a dramatic example, that's probably changed the way you think a little bit when you see different kinds of leaders.

Geoff Colvin 28:00 

That's exactly right. Because I've learned that leadership is everywhere. And it has a lot in common with all of their leadership, no matter where it is.

David Novak 28:09 

You know, Jeff, you've also written this tremendously insightful book about the future about how humans can win in this age of artificial intelligence. It's called humans are underrated. What high achievers know that brilliant machines? never will. I love that title. It's fantastic. What's the premise behind this book

Geoff Colvin 28:29 

yet? Well, the premise here is, technology is becoming so good at things that people do that you really start to wonder, how are we poor humans going to add value? How are we going to be economically valuable? How are we going to earn a living that will, you know, maintain our standard of living for ourselves and our kids, as technology does more and more of this stuff, not just faster and cheaper, but also better than we ourselves do it? And what got me going on the book was having some personal experiences, or I saw this for myself, you know, machines software, doing high value work, not just you know, menial work, not just mechanic, I mean, high value difficult work better than humans. So I thought, Well, okay, well, this has to be faced, this is going to be a big issue for decades to come.

David Novak 29:28 

Well, what's going to be the future of us poor humans? You know, most people think that we've always can innovate our way out of this. What's your view?

Geoff Colvin 29:36 

And we always have that's absolutely right. We need to remember the lesson of history here. Technology has been advancing in a big way, you know, for 250 years now. And over that time, advancing technology has always eliminated jobs, but at the same time, it has always enabled the creation of have new jobs that on average, are higher value, they pay better, and there are more of them than the old jobs that were eliminated. And so that's why the record of the past 250 years has been more employment and rising living standards like nothing the world had ever seen before. So that's history. The big question now is, will the pattern of history continue? Will the old pattern hold with today's technology advances? And first of all, I do not claim to know the answer. But what's striking to me is that for the first time in history, it's a real question. I get this question I just posed, you know, will the historical pattern hold? I've asked this question. Now, in the past few months, to three different rooms, full of CEOs, big deal CEOs of famous companies and stuff, asked exactly the same question. You know, here's your choice. Choice A, the historical pattern will hold as today's technology advances or be this No, it won't. This time, it's different. So I just asked him for a show of hands. And in each case, it's been about 5050. Until a few years ago, that would have been unimaginable. You know, everybody knew what the historical pattern was. Now, we really don't know. And that's unprecedented in human history.

David Novak 31:27 

Well, we'll see. Are you an optimist? Or what's your view?

Geoff Colvin 31:30 

Well, I am an optimist. But and this is really what the book came down to the question was, what skills will make us valuable? And the answer that I came down to was the skills of deep human interaction, managing the relationships that exist only between real life human beings. That's the part that is becoming increasingly valuable, economically valuable, that stuff that machines so far, are just not capable of doing. And my guess is, won't be capable of doing for quite a while. So if we can get lots of people to master those skills, then I do think there's a great future for us. But these are different from the skills that have always made us valuable in the past, which were typically technical skills that you could learn in the classroom.

David Novak 32:28 

Well, I know that Peter Drucker always said that the knowledge worker was the most valuable player. And you seem to be suggesting that that's going to change the ability to work with human beings and do what computers can't is going to be the big, big driver.

Geoff Colvin 32:44 

Yeah, that's exactly right. And Peter Drucker was right. I mean, he coined that term, I think, 60 years ago or something, he was always ahead of his time. And I think he was absolutely right when he said that, but we are now entering a fundamentally new era where software is doing the work of lawyers and doctors, not just faster and cheaper, but better than they can do some of that work. And the technology we have to remember, gets roughly twice as good every two years. And I know that I personally do not.

David Novak 33:23 

Okay, how do as humans survive and thrive? What do you think is the most important human trait we've got to leverage

Geoff Colvin 33:29 

in a word empathy. And by empathy, I don't just mean feeling someone else's pain, although it is that it is the ability to discern what somebody else is thinking or feeling, whatever it may be, and then to respond in some appropriate way. That's what it is, and an ability to do that then leads to all kinds of other abilities that are increasingly, you know, not just what I think will be valuable, but what increasingly employers are demanding.

David Novak 34:03 

Well, you talk about the critical skill of solving problems creatively together. And together was the operative word. Talk about that.

Geoff Colvin 34:11 

You know, the research on this is so fascinating. I mean, first of all, solving problems together is what we all need to be able to do. The problems we face in our companies today are too hard for somebody sitting alone in their office to solve we have to do it with teams. And so how to teams do it what makes teams effective? The research is just remarkable because the answer is not what most of us think. It has nothing to do with the cohesion or motivation or satisfaction of the team. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IQ of the smartest person on the team. It has only a little to do with the average IQ of the team. It has an awful lot to do with the social sensitivity D of the team members, their ability to read one another. In other words, we're right back to empathy. A team where people on average have very high social sensitivity is the most effective teams, because that team will get a lot of ideas out of everybody out onto the table. And it will be very efficient and effective at coming to consensus about what the good ideas were, and then what the not so good ideas were. And so this critical component of empathy turns out to be the key to great team performance problem solving together. You know, it's

David Novak 35:39 

interesting, it really makes a lot of common sense, because I've seen it on teams. But the other thing you talk about is the power of a really great team is that no one dominates.

Geoff Colvin 35:49 

Yep, that turns out to be key. If anybody takes over, you know, if any individual dominates the team, then you've killed the creativity and the problem solving, it's just not going to happen. And we've all been, heaven knows, we have all been involved with teams that had somebody like that. And typically, it's the boss, although sometimes it's just someone who is particularly, you know, overbearing, and it shuts down the team. And so you're right, no one dominates when a team is effective.

David Novak 36:24 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Jeff Colvin, in just a moment. You know, when you talk about athletes who consistently perform at the highest level, the name Tom Brady might just come to mind with good reason. When I had a chance to sit down with the goat, he absolutely backed up the ideas Jeff is talking about today, to compete at the highest level, Thomas had to put in the hard work, deliberate practice and a lot of intentional communication with his teammates.

Tom Brady 36:56 

CCC, clear current communication, you know, really being clear, not, you know, man, I'm going to say something and see if they can figure it out. Or I'm gonna try to dance around a topic and then current, you know, what's happening in the moment, not, hey, this thing happened two months ago, and it's really bothering me. It's no, hey, this is the situation we're currently dealing with. And you got to communicate, and so many people don't want to communicate. And I think CCC is really important on a personal level. But it's certainly really important in a professional environment as well.

David Novak 37:30 

Take a deeper dive into Tom Brady's elite habits and mindset, when you listen to episode 53, here on how leaders lead.

Are companies doing a good job of training people on how not to dominate on a team who's doing this? Well,

Geoff Colvin 37:52 

this companies and organizations are just getting into it. As a matter of fact, they are just coming to understand what makes teams really effective and coming to understand that these skills can be taught. And where I see it being done is pretty interesting. It is being done, for example, in a lot of healthcare institutions, where you know, they have to have teams solve, you know, really important problems, sometimes life and death problems, sometimes more mundane, but they're learning how to train people in these skills. And by the way, one example I happen to be familiar with is what's being done at Cleveland Clinic where they have really developed a whole program for teaching the skills of relationships that are the foundation of good team performance. Another one that really surprises people, is the US military. I don't know of any institution that understands the value of these skills of deep human interaction. And that trains these skills better than the US military. And that surprises people. But it doesn't surprise anybody who's been involved with the military over the past 15 years or so. They have taken this on very heavily and they're doing a great job of

David Novak 39:11 

it. That's great. I always like to find out where those best practices are and go to school on him.

Geoff Colvin 39:15 

Yeah. And there's a place where most people wouldn't think to look, but they should. You know, you

David Novak 39:20 

also talk about the great leaders, the world class performers, they are really excellent storytellers. What do you mean by that? In a way,

Geoff Colvin 39:27 

this is something that I think we all know, but most of our organizations don't really value storytelling. They value charts and graphs. And that's okay. You know, we're going to have to make our business decisions based on data and good analysis of data that's never going to change. But analysis of data is exactly what technology is doing better and better every day. If we try to distinguish ourselves by doing that we're going to lose because the computers do it better and better. Every Day, at the same time, we all know from personal experience, if you want to change people's minds, if you want to have people remember something, and if you want to inspire people to action, don't show them charts and graphs, tell them a story. That's what does it. And that turns out to be an incredibly valuable skill.

David Novak 40:26 

Absolutely. And there's no computer that can do that.

Geoff Colvin 40:29 

Not so far. They're working on it, actually. But so far, no.

David Novak 40:34 

And you also talk about in this new world that we're moving into now is that women hold strong advantages over men. Yeah. Why do you say that?

Geoff Colvin 40:41 

The reason I say that is, let me put it this way. Here, we've been talking for the last several minutes about the skills of deep human interaction, you know, empathy, discerning what someone else is thinking and feeling and so forth. Okay. Forget about research. I'll tell you about that in a second. But forget about all the research. Just ask yourself from your own life experience, who on average, do you think is better at those things? Men or women? Right? This is not a hard question. We all know the answer. And in fact, the research supports that there's a lot of research, I just don't think we really need the research. Women, on average, are better at these skills than men are. And there's a lot of speculation about why that should be so and to say, on average, doesn't mean that every woman is better than every man, that's not correct. And furthermore, we can all get better. But if we are entering the era, when skills of deep human interaction are going to be really the way value is created, then I do think that women go in with an advantage over men.

David Novak 41:55 

You know, if you look at millennials, their turnover rate is three times higher than previous generations. Why do you think that is?

Geoff Colvin 42:02 

A number of reasons, I do think that they have a different set of expectations of work. They, you know, they saw their parents who maybe wished for job security and turned out not to have it. And they just can't imagine staying in one place for their whole careers, some of them will do so. But that's just not what they think of as the basic paradigm. There is another issue here, though, that a lot of people worry about when they think of the next generation in their companies. And that is do millennials have these skills of deep human interaction because they spend so much of their time interacting digitally, rather than in person face to face? And I've got to tell you, the research suggests that maybe that is a problem, that all of that time spent communicating with their thumbs rather than by actually talking to somebody. It does diminish empathy, and it can be brought back. But it does diminish empathy, and it is a concern. Do you have

David Novak 43:13 

any recommendations for people who work remotely because I think that makes it even more difficult?

Geoff Colvin 43:18 

It does, it does. And the recommendations for those people are first, do try to get together physically, occasionally, with your teammates. Just an ability to do that every once in a while, really adds a lot of richness and value to the interactions you have remotely. And second, even if you can't do that very much. Still try to develop these skills of deep human interaction, because the research shows that the people who have those skills which are mostly in person face to face skills, the people who have those skills also are more effective operating remotely, it really comes through even when you're not in person face to face.

David Novak 43:59 

Jeff, I just got a few more questions I want to talk to you about you say that building human capital is one of the most important aspects of any kind of business. What do you mean by that? And as a leader, what should you do to make that happen?

Geoff Colvin 44:13 

It is absolutely critical. And look, David, you you know this, you knew this a long time ago, the human capital is the most valuable capital in the business. And a lot of employers don't do very much to really improve it. And by that, it means helping people develop the skills that they're gonna need. It is possible for every company to invest more in that and there are all kinds of ways to do it. You can mix people up into different assignments. You can give them action learning projects, you can give them some classroom, although that's not the most effective way to do it. But it's an investment. And I guess what I would say to managers or people who are leading companies now is think of it as an investment, not as a cost that will come back to benefit you,

David Novak 44:56 

you know, just listening to you if I was running a business right Now I gotta tell you, I couldn't wait to get back to my office, talk to the people and say, Hey, we're going to start training people on social connectivity skills. We're going to teach people how not to dominate meetings. We're going to teach people how to be on teams. And I think this is a huge fertile area for the business world.

Geoff Colvin 45:16 

I totally agree. It is a huge opportunity. Give,

David Novak 45:19 

you're obviously really articulate, you do a lot of public speaking, was that something you could always do? Or did it take some deliberate practice to pull this off?

Geoff Colvin 45:31 

No, it's not it was not natural. I had to answer. Well, I had to give that answer, of course, but in fact, it it really is correct. I love it. I love doing that. Now, I do a lot of speaking. And unlike most people who hate it, I love it. But no, I wasn't always that way at all. But I had some great coaches and teachers along the way, in high school, when I was in high school, it was in Illinois, it's a state that had in still has a well developed system of competition in speaking events, public speaking events statewide. And our school competed. And I had a fantastic teacher who coached us, and I competed all over the state along with other kids. And that was really important that turns out to have been important for the whole rest of my life.

David Novak 46:22 

You know, Jeff, I love this quote that you have, where you say developing leaders is in the program, it's a way of living. Yes. And you know, you're so passionate about leaders, people interaction, just what's going on in the world. And I want to thank you for making it your living, because you're really making a big time difference in the world. And I really appreciate you sharing that wisdom today.

Geoff Colvin 46:43 

I really, thank you for saying that. And honestly, David, I appreciate it. Because coming from you, it means an awful lot. I don't know anybody in business, who has done more to develop leaders than you have, and you're still doing it, which I am delighted to see. So congratulations on all you're doing and thank you.

David Novak 47:11 

I'll always be so grateful for the article, Jeff wrote profiling our recognition culture at yum brands, it really helped get the word out that recognition is a key part of building a high performing team. In that article, and in everything he does, Jeff is passionate about building and sharing nohow he believes deeply in the wonderful potential of people. You know, when we really focus on skills of deep human interaction, when we have the mindset of deliberate practice, when we focus on talent, and even more on effort, we really can perform at our very best and help others do the same. This week, why not try out this concept of deliberate practice for yourself. Remember the qualities that Jeff mentions, it's got to push you just outside your current abilities. It's got to be repeatable. And you've got to find a way to get feedback on what you're doing. Apply it as you prepare for a presentation, or find a way to bring deliberate practice to a common skill. You use it work, like writing or data analysis. But whatever you do know this. When you get into that mindset, where you're always asking how to get better. Guess what? You absolutely will get better. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders use deliberate practice to improve. Coming up next on how leaders lead. I'm talking with Mike McCoy. He's captaining the United States Walker Cup team, which will be teeing off next week at the legendary old course at St. Andrews,

Mike McCoy 48:54 

the USGA, they demand the ability to sustain yourself over an entire week under very trying conditions. And, you know, a lot of guys, when they show up and see the grass is a little longer, and the greens are a little firmer and faster. You know, you've got half the field beat already. And I think that's kind of true in business. Some people when they get in there, and they see what a mess that clients got. They just sort of throw their hands up. And that's kind of where I like to dig in and solve those big problems.

David Novak 49:26 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday, you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be