David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is array Levine, the co founder of the navigation app, Waze. And I gotta tell you, he is quite the entrepreneur, get this, he's built not one, but two companies that have reached a valuation of $1 billion without going public. Now, that's some rarefied air. I mean, this guy is just passionate about using technology to solve real world problems that actually make people's lives better. And he knows exactly what it takes to do it. But for all his success, what strikes me most about arry is that he's just not afraid to fail. Because let's face it, in business, things don't always go according to plan. But if we can learn to see failure as a valuable experience, and then use it to our advantage, we can achieve amazing things. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, array Levine.

You know, hurry, I understand you're a dual corn, what the heck is a dual corn and how you become one.

Uri Levine 1:29 

So, you know, I recently read that there are about 62 people that actually have built two companies that are worth more than a billion dollars in. And I'm happy to be one of those. And by the way, I never rest, right. So there will be more of that, in this is absolutely amazing to belong to this category of people that have created so much value. And for me, it's always about value creation. But But I think that I've sort of developed a method of building startups or building companies that doesn't guarantee that you're going to be successful, but increase the likelihood of being successful

David Novak 2:09 

as the co founder of ways. You've had customers tell you that you set them free. You've even been called the Moses of highways, what's your favorite story or a from a user that you like to tell them? Why?

Uri Levine 2:22 

One of the best stories that I really liked is that a few years back, someone came to me and say, you think you you saved my marriage? And I said, What, then? Well, because of ways we don't argue anymore in the car. So you saved my marriage ended up to be a marriage consultant in that sense, but I think that they are, I owe the best story to, to my son, I have five kids. And one of them today is, you know, 24 years old and running his own business and so forth. But, but when he started to drive, he really liked to ride he would drive anywhere, right? And so one day, I asked him to drive me to the airport and say that my phone is broken, I can't. And I said, Okay, what do you mean? You can the car is right there. And the keys are right here, drive me to the airport, right? And you say, no, no, no, that you don't get it. My phone is broken. I don't know how to get there. And so I was scratching my head for a second. And I said, You know what, I'm gonna be in the car with you. And I'll tell you how to get there. And then he asked me, and how would I come back? We lose orientation, but not logic.

David Novak 3:26 

You know, very, I wouldn't really want to dive deep into how you lead and how you build startups. And I want to start by asking a question that people have asked me, you know, as I've mentioned to them, that I'd be interviewing you in this podcast, and they said, How in the world did this guy build ways to begin with? And this is an app that you build from scratch? How did you build it?

Uri Levine 3:49 

Now two things here. One is, is where it's coming from, right. And the idea and for me, always, it's about being frustrated from something will trigger me to think whether or not I can change that right. And I hate traffic jams. Right? It's really frustrating in the realisations was somewhere in 2006, is that if there is someone ahead of me on the road, then that someone can tell me how is traffic like on their path. And based on that, if I would have a lot of those, then I can actually figure out what is the fastest route them and essentially outsmart traffic. And it was only until 2007 When I met the other co founders of ways that this idea actually started to become real because who chughtai the CTO of y is actually have figured out a way to crowdsource the map data, which is even more complex. And so and this is the magic of Waze, Waze, crowdsource everything, not just traffic information and speed traps, which is kind of obvious, right? But the map data itself so when we started there was no map. There was a blank page right? There was absolutely Nothing on that blank page. And when the first driver drove, we get the GPS data from the device. And if we take this GPS data and draw it out on the blank page, then we kind of trace back the route that they drove, right. So all the turns and all the directions that they went and so forth, you start to take that from a lot of drivers. And you end up with something that looks like a map and entities actually, the way that people are using the roadways now by itself is incomplete. And then we enabled map editing tools that people can provide us with street names and house numbers, and so forth. So the real magic of Waze is that we crowdsource everything. And based on that we were able to go globally, from pretty much the first day now, not that it worked on first day. But that was the concept, right? And so the promise was, we are going to help drivers to avoid traffic jams. This is really important to remember, right? Because we will go back into the, you know what my T shirt says and the name of the book, following up with the problem, not the solution. One of the important part of focusing on the problem is that your story is way easier to be told right? Helping drivers to avoid traffic jams you already liked that. Right? If I will tell you that I'm building an AI based crowdsource navigation system, then you don't really care. And so we started with this promise, it was not good enough. It was a long journey to make it good enough. But eventually it was and then it become the driving application for most of the drivers. Are there more drivers driving with Waze on the planet than any other application?

David Novak 6:36 

Absolutely. And I hate those drive, hate those traffic jams as well. So, so thank you very much. And I understand how it could keep a lot of marriages together as well. I think that's a source of video arguments. Over Over the years, you know, I love the title of your book, you don't fall in love with the problem, not the solution. Why should that be the approach for leaders.

Uri Levine 6:58 

So I would start with the end, right, if you solve a problem, it's guarantee that you are creating value. Now in particular, if you are starting a new journey, then you are seeking for work value creation. And the problem is the easiest way to do that. And first I can, I would say there are probably three reasons to do that. One is we mentioned earlier is the story is way easier to be told. And that makes your marketing easier, that makes your customer acquisition easier, that makes your raising capital easier, and easier story to be told is significant. But the most important part is the problem remains the north star of your journey. And when you have a North Star, then the deviations that you're going to make are going to be shorter and shorter in time, shorter in duration, it's easier to keep the focus and execute the plan when you have a North Star and that that is really pretty significant. There is another part of it, which is the mission that combines the company and all the people that sign up for this mission, whether or not they are the employees or the customers or everyone, they want you to be successful, because you are going to make the world a better place by eliminating that problem. And you end up with three key factors that increase the likelihood of being successful,

David Novak 8:25 

or you know, how do you know whether a problem is one you should pursue? And give us a couple of examples? If you could,

Uri Levine 8:31 

I will start by saying you know when when you think of a problem, I really want you to think of a big problem, something that it's worth solving something that the world will become a better place if you solve that. And then ask yourself perhaps the most important question who has this problem. If you happen to be the only person on the planet with this problem, then I would say go to a shrink it's going to be or then building a startup, right. But if a lot of people actually have this problem, then what you really want to do is go and speak with those people and understand their perception of the problem. And only then go and build a solution. Now there are two things that are are going to happen, right? If you follow this path and your solution works, it's guaranteed that you're creating value. But there is even more significant part of it. When you tell people that you are going to address this problem. And you ask them What did they think about this problem? You kind of sign up for a mission, right? Because they will send you if the problem is is really if they perceive this problem significant for them. They will sign you up to go and solve that. And this is part of falling in love with the problem right you end up with this is my mission that right there are so many people that I spoke with. They told me that please do that for me right then and this is certainly a place that you would like to be and so you end up with really starting with the problem understanding the perception should have the problem and only then go and build a solution. But there is more into it in when you start to address problems, when you tell someone, what is likely to happen is that you're going to get examples that you were unable to even figure out by yourself. And so I'll give you some examples, right, so So ways we understand more weight, we, it's ways for public transportation right now with public transportation, the challenges are even more significant, because which ways if you left your house five minutes earlier or later, it's not a big deal, right. But if you missed the train, it's a big deal. You need a completely different route to get your destination. And so all of a sudden that the information there is become even more critical for becoming effective. And at the end of the day, there are billion drivers around the globe, there are 5 billion people using public transportation. So it's a bigger problem to be solved. Some of the other startups that I've started, each one of them is is, you know, dealing with a single problem. Some examples are refunded, when you travel to Europe, you are entitled to get the VAT back on the goods that you buy, right? And this could be about 20%. Right now, when you try to do that simply doesn't work. There are always bad things happen, right? So maybe long lines at the customer may be the stores don't have the right forms. Maybe you get there. And they tell you, of course we have tax free shopping, it's in a different terminal. Right? something bad happens there. And you you look at it and you say wait a minute, there's like 30 billion euros left on the table because it's complex? And what if we can simplify that? Right? And so that was the essence for refunded?

David Novak 11:46 

Yeah, I love how you solve these problems are a and I love how each problem really makes the world a better place and really helps people which I think is, is fantastic. How do you personally get into the heads of customers and understand their perceptions and their beliefs.

Uri Levine 12:02 

I start with the closest circle of friends, right? So I asked them, and then I get the initial feedback. And by the way, when you tell someone, this is what I'm going to build, the first reaction is always going to be the same, this will never work, right. And this is really the case. And these are the nice guys. The lesser nicer guys, they will tell you, this is the stupidest idea that I ever heard. But but then you go and you don't speak about what you're going to build, you speak about the problem, they will show you how significant this problem is for them. And if it's not, then don't even bother. If it is, then here is your mission.

David Novak 12:43 

Hey, you know, because you're listening to this, I can tell you're the kind of person who wants to learn how to lead well. But there's a lot of companies out there who want to take that desire and charge you $500 or $1,000, or heck, even $20,000 to try and show you how to lead. That's just not right. If you want to be a better leader, I believe you deserve to have access to something that will truly help you. And it shouldn't cost a fortune. So I want you to go to how leaders lead.com and start my leadership class. It's really in truly free. And after you take this class, you're gonna feel more confident in your role, and you'll be on your way to get the big things done with your team. Go check it out at how leaders lead.com.

You know, I understand that you set out the objective for ways to be the best workplace ever, you know, what inspired you to have this bold goal? And what does that really mean to you? I mean, when you said best workplace ever, how did you define what that would be? And what's it mean?

Uri Levine 13:51 

So I think that the trigger came from a few friends that started their startup in 1999 startup called human click, no one heard of that. And they were acquired by life person in year 2005. And in 2007, when we started ways, I actually asked them, their perspectives on building startups and building things and so forth. And one of the things that I asked them is that look, most of the intrapreneurs when their company is being acquired, they sign up for two or three or four years, whatever it is. And usually the first period they're trying to make the integration work. And then the middle period, they are trying to find someone to replace them. And then the last period, they're looking for starting to think of their next data point, and you have stayed seven years why? And they said, that was the best working place we ever had. And we took that in 2007 decided that this is what we're going to build that place. And we ask ourselves, what does it mean to us, right? And so you looked at previous positions that you had and previous places that you were in he said that I liked this, I didn't like this. What is it that you liked there? What made that place special. And that was about leadership that was about priorities that about, you know how we do things right in. So for example, you know, at ways we decided that we as founders are always going to vote as one vote, right. So if we were three, if if two of us wants to do something, then the third person is going to do this thing, regardless, right, and that was establish a stronger bonding throughout the entire year, we say that we are awarded drivers by the drivers for the drivers, right, which basically means that we are never going to take advantage of the drivers, right. So we don't sell them insurance. We don't we don't even keep the or at least back then. Right. Because I left later. We didn't keep any personal information of the driver. So even if I will get a subpoenas from the court to to tell the court where exactly you were last night, I don't know. Because we didn't want to be in a situation we say this is our priority drivers is our priorities. We put employees as the number one importance amongst everything. And the result is that all the employees in the company have stock options, right? And so at the day of the exit, 75% of them became millionaires overnight. Fantastic. And I'm so proud of that, right? That actually was, the only thing that made me cry is the joy of helping all those people that were part of the journey, they were a critical part of the journey. The company wouldn't become what it is without them. In in all of them were rewarded.

David Novak 16:39 

Yeah, that's, that's fantastic. And, you know, as a leader, you know, you have to hire people, you have to fire people, what's the most important advice you can give on on that front?

Uri Levine 16:50 

So you know, it's funny, there is a chapter in my book that called firing and hiring in when I first submitted that today have to the publisher, he said it should be hiring and firing. And I said, No, no, no, this is firing. And hiring, firing is a hard decision. Hiring is as easy decision. making hard decisions is hard. And this is why it should be the first and the most important realization how to do that. And, you know, I look at it today. And I read this chapter again. And I think that this is maybe one of the most important chapters in my book, in one of the reasons that, you know, I spoke with many intrapreneurs that their startup failed and asked them like what happened in about half say the team was not right. And I kept on asking, Okay, what do you mean, the team was not right. And so I heard, this guy was not good enough, this guy, so not good enough, was a major reason. Another reason that I heard quite often is that we had communication issues of this startup with very few people, right? Communication influence their means ego management issues, right. But then ask them the most interesting question. When did you know that the team is not right? Now all of them knew within the first month, all of them knew within the first month, there was one guy that told me before we even started, then he said, Wait a minute, if you knew within the first month that the team is not right. And he didn't do anything. The problem was not that the team was not right. The problem was that the CEO did not make our decision. making hard decisions is hard. Making easy decisions is easy. This is why in smaller organizations, most of the distribution will go to the top to the CEO or to the department manager or whatever it is. Now, here's the challenge, right? In particular, when it comes to people, if there is someone that shouldn't be there, someone that doesn't fit. And it doesn't matter if that someone doesn't feed because of poor performance, or because of different culture, that someone doesn't feed, right? Everyone knows. Everyone knows, and the CEO doesn't do anything. And this is where it's becoming a problem, because the result is that the top performing people would leave. Now one of the things that I've realized is that wait a minute, if everyone knows, and everyone knows within one month, then every hiring manager in the world should do exactly the same. Once you hire a new, hire a new person, mark your calendar for 30 days down the road, and ask yourself one question, knowing what I know today, would I hire this person? Now if the answer note and fire them immediately, you're doing yourself a favor? You're doing the rest of the team have favor and you're doing that person a favor because that person is not going to be successful?

David Novak 19:36 

Do you have any questions you ask yourself beyond? Beyond that 30 Day question, which I love. I think that's a fantastic question to ask any other questions you have when you assess people?

Uri Levine 19:46 

So this is really critical, right? Because we realized that you know, best hiring manager in the world, they are probably going to be at 80% Good hires and 20 person than not good hires, right? And so even those that are going to make mistakes, and therefore the practice of firing immediately someone that shouldn't be there, this practice is really important. But what do you do? If you, if you don't know? What do you do if you have a large team of people, or you haven't implemented this practice, so obviously, there are some hires that shouldn't be there, but they're already there for a long period of time. Go back to the basics, right? The biggest issue is that everyone knows. Now, if everyone knows, then ask them to and ask some of the of your key performance, you know, very simple question, you can ask them directly, if we shouldn't be here, you can ask them indirectly and saying, Okay, let's say that we are going to build a new team. And you can choose someone to join you on this team, right? And those are people that needs to be promoted, right? Or you can choose people that you don't want on your team. And if you go in and get consistent answers about specific people, that's exactly what you're looking for. Now, here's the issue with doing that. Right. If you ask them, you cannot ignore their answers anymore.

David Novak 21:16 

Absolutely, you know, at now, in addition to getting your DNA, right, early on, you talk about the importance of figuring out what your product market fit is, how do you define product market fit? And when did you know you had it at ways for example.

Uri Levine 21:32 

So when you are building a startups, and this is really major difference between a startup and an existing business, right existing business, they know what their product is, they know how to acquire users, they know what's their business model. So essentially, they are pretty much in a safe place in terms of uncertainty. And they still need to execute well, and they want to grow maybe faster, and they maybe want to capture additional markets and in maybe build a new product. But at the end of the day, the answers to the three key questions, what is my value proposition? How do I bring users or customers? And how do I make money? You already answered with a startup. When you start from scratch, you don't know all those, you're basically saying, Okay, I'm going to help drivers to avoid traffic jams. So here is my value proposition. But now you need to build it into the product, right? So the story is there, the product, it's a long journey, out of all those journeys of figuring out product market fit, figuring out business model and figuring out growth, the product market fit is always going to be the first one, you have to figure out product market fit or you will die as simple as that. And by figuring out product market fit, what I really mean is that you create value to your customers, if you don't create value, then there is no reason for your existence right. Now, here's the main thing. And there are two things that I want you to think of you never heard of a company that did not figure out product market fit. They simply that that's it. Those that did they don't change their product anymore. So for a second, I want you to think of, you know, everything that you're using everyday, right? So so way is in searching Google and, and Uber and Netflix in whatever it is right? And ask yourself, what is the difference between any of those that I'm using today? is the first time that you have used it? And the answer is that there is no difference. We are searching Google today, the same way that we search Google for the first time in our life. We are using Waze today the same way we are using Uber today the same way. So once you figure out product market fit, which is the value that you bring to your customers, you don't change that anymore, you're doing a lot of other things. But you don't change that anymore. It does take a long period of time, a really long period of time, right? It was five years from Microsoft, it was 10 years for Netflix, it was three and a half years, but ways. It's always a matter of years to figure that out. And by the way, there is one metrics that measure that retention, that's it, if people are coming back, that means that you have created value for them.

David Novak 24:12 

And one of the things that I love about the research I've done with you is you're very provocative thinker, and you frame things very uniquely that gets you to think and and one of your provocative ideas is launch before your product is ready. Now, most people think you know, gotta get it just perfect. I don't want to get it out there and have it fail, because it's not the way out. It should be. What's your thinking, Why in the world, would you launch something before it's ready?

Uri Levine 24:37 

So here is the most interesting part. At the end of the day, it's going to be a journey of failures, right? So you're going to make mistakes throughout this journey, left and right and, you know, multiple mistakes. And there are two conclusions of that if you realize that this is going to be a journey of failure. The first one is that if you're afraid to fail, then in reality, you already failed because you're not going to try it But even if you decide that you are not afraid to fail, and you go into this journey, the faster that you fail, you essentially increase the likelihood of being successful because you have enough time and resources and funding for another attempt, and another tried another experiment, and so forth. When it comes to product market fit, the only way that you can improve is if you watch your customers and speak today. And the only way to do that, if you really want to improve is to start early. So the biggest enemy of good enough is perfect, you don't need to be perfect. In order to win the market, you need to be good enough. I want you for a second to imagine two twin companies, right? They born the same day, they're doing exactly the same. And at a certain point of time, the product is not ready yet. Right? One of them is saying you know what, I'm going to launch the product, even though that it's not right. And the other one is saying no, no, no, no, I got to keep on improving that and fine tune and tuning until it's become perfect. And the only then I would launch, what will happen the next phase is that the first company have input from real users. And therefore their improvement is focused on what is really important for the customers in they will actually become way faster than the second company, and eventually will win the market. And so in that sense, I would say, look, launch way before you think it's ready. As soon as you can actually demonstrate any value to your customers, it doesn't need to be perfect, it doesn't even need to be good enough. But what you really want is the initial feedback. And the initial feedback, when you listen to it is the one that is going to make you more successful. You know, and people will tell me, but wait a minute, this is crappy product. This is, you know, I'm embarrassed to launch that, then I will tell them good. This is exactly the right timing. And now if they will tell me that we are going to hurt their brand name, then I will tell them what brand name you don't have in the EFA customer. So you don't even have a brand name. So why should you worry about something that you don't even have, are going to lose customers? Of course you do. But you're going to lose customers that are going to improve the product in order for the next set of customers for the product to become better and better and better. And in that way, they will come back. Now they will come back because essentially, the first users that you're going to have are probably the most innovative people they care about what you're doing. And they care to the level that they might be enthusiastic amateurs, that they really care about what you're doing, and they will be forgiving.

David Novak 27:40 

Absolutely. And you know, you wear these T shirts, and I love them. And you've the one you have on right now since fall in love with the problem, not the solution, the title of your book, but you also have another one that I've seen in videos, which is the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. That's a great phrase, how do you operationalize that at a company like Waze,

Uri Levine 27:58 

you know, you operationalize that by setting the most important thing, and the most important thing is going to change multiple times. But right now, this is about product right now, this is about this area of the product right now, this is about raising capital right now. It's about something else, right? And you basically align that objectives, the most important thing with everyone in the company, right? So everyone knows what is really important. Now, at the end of the day Focus, focus is really challenging, right? Because the general sense is that we can do everything right. But the reality is that we can't, we don't need to do everything, we need to do one thing, right? And so focus is not about what we are doing. It's about what we are not doing. These are the hard decisions, right? So Waze is for daily commuters. That's it right? It's not for pedestrians, it's not for truck drivers. It's not for bicycle riders, it's not for anything else, except the daily commuters. And when you focus on a single task, then it's easier to make it more successful in this is where I mentioned earlier, the problem you're trying to solve the Northstar of your journey. And when you have the Northstar, then you have less deviations from the from the main wrap

David Novak 29:18 

we'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Ray Levine in just a moment. You know, I just love talking to entrepreneurs like arry and understanding what makes them tick. But I gotta admit, when it comes to really understanding the startup mindset, nobody does it better than guy Roz. He hosts the popular NPR podcast, how I built this and interviews top entrepreneurs from all walks of life. I got the chance to interview guy and it's clear he puts a high priority on how he could serve other people. And if you ask me, that's the hallmark of an extraordinary leader.

Guy Raz 29:53 

At its core at its heart. What I'm doing is trying to serve the people who don't have access As to the founders I have access to. But I take that responsibility very seriously. Because I think about somebody who's got a small brick and mortar store who's trying to figure out how to create a second location, or somebody who's running a shop on Etsy, and thinking about how to scale or expand. And I think about what I do as a free business school course for them, you know, a service that is free, that will hopefully give them information that is useful. And so to me, I really do think about what I do in service of others. And it actually, that's what drives me I get jazzed about that. I love that.

David Novak 30:36 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Guy Roz Episode 94, here on how leaders lead. You're a you're a charismatic guy, you got a big smile, yet you describe yourself as a troublemaking guy, why do you feel that way about yourself?

Uri Levine 30:56 

So number one, I would say I was fired from any working place that I ever was right, I was kicked out or from Alien class that I ever was. But you mentioned earlier, I have a provocative thinking, right? I don't accept anything for granted. And this is very challenging, right. And in particular, in my approach, when I get things that are frustrating me, I don't accept the fact that this is how it is. And I basically say, wait a minute, let me let me figure that out. Yeah. And so I ended up to be in that sense of troublemakers. And by the way, one of the biggest challenge of cooperate is that they have hard time to innovate. Part of it is because they got rid of the troublemakers.

David Novak 31:36 

Yeah. Good boy. You're a This has been so much fun. And I want to have some more with my lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this? Of course, What's one word others would use to best describe you passionate? What would you say is the one word that best describes you?

Uri Levine 31:54 

value creator?

David Novak 31:57 

If you could be one person for a day, besides yourself, who would it be a why?

Uri Levine 32:02 

Thomas Edison, because of the perseverance in trying to solve something that he was really set up as a mission for himself?

David Novak 32:10 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Uri Levine 32:13 

Bullshit.

David Novak 32:15 

What's the one app on your phone? You couldn't live without? Ways? What's something about Israel that you'd only know if you were Israeli?

Uri Levine 32:26 

So Israel is very unique. But the fact that we all are having a mandatory military service of three years period actually makes us very powerful in that sense. And the commitment that soldiers will have to each other is stronger than any other commitment between people that I know,

David Novak 32:46 

what would I hear if I got in your car and turned on the radio?

Uri Levine 32:50 

I usually don't listen to the radio,

David Novak 32:53 

nothing. Silence. So you can think of the next big idea? What's something about you that few people would know,

Uri Levine 33:00 

if there are only a few people that knows that, then I prefer to keep it that way.

David Novak 33:06 

biggest lesson you learn from your mother, being a teacher, biggest lesson you learn from your dad, don't be afraid to fail. That's the end of the lightning round. And I got a couple more questions. And I'll let you go here are a I got to ask you this, you know, you're a disrupter, you disrupt categories, you know, you really I know, admire other other companies that go into categories and make life better for others by disrupting what's the current way of doing things, what keeps existing companies and leaders from changing, and as a result, they end up getting disrupted.

Uri Levine 33:42 

So you know, for a second, I would say let's define disruption as changing the market equilibrium, right? And this change is, is very dramatic, right? That means multiple things. And one of them is that the new equilibrium is way better than the previous one. Which basically means that the market is going to be way bigger than before. And in a new, bigger market, there is multiple room for multiple players, right? And just take Uber for example. Right? So So you think of the number of on demand trips that were there before Uber with medallion taxes with standard taxes. And the market today in the market today is more than 10 times bigger, and it is 10 times bigger. There is room for Uber and Lyft and 99 Taxi and grab and Didi and there's three times bigger room for taxi drivers. So the opportunity is way bigger than the threat and this is one thing that we all need to remember. The challenge is that you look at the history and you basically say all the disruptors are newcomers existing business do not disrupt their own business because they have something to lose any newcomers have nothing to lose. Now there are different ways that you can address that but um underlining assumption needs to be that we cannot disrupt our own market. In by the time we will say, wait a minute, our market is nearly over or it's going to change, it might be too late. There are three reasons for that. One is the ego management, right? If you if you want to disrupt, you need to start by a statement saying whatever we are currently doing is wrong. Now, I can do that when I'm alone in the room, and there is no one else in the room. And I can tell myself, I'm wrong. But try to do that in a corporate throughout management meeting, it's not going to work, the one that will raise the voice and say whatever we're currently doing is wrong, is a troublemaker. So the first part is about ego management. The second part is about fear of failures, corporates have established over the years high fear of failure, and therefore people are afraid to try new things. And the result is that they are incapable of doing that. Now, here comes the most complex part of it. Building a startup is a long journey. It usually takes companies when they start 10 years to get to the place that they are starting to create significant value. And then this 10 years, they figure out product market fit. And they figure out growth and they figure out business model and so forth. And then they are actually on the takeoff runway, and when you think of a cooperator is basically saying you know what, I think that I need to create something new, I think that I need to disrupt this market, I'm going to be under a new division that is going to deal with that this new division over the next decade is going to struggle, right. And in particular Sunday, during the next decade, we will have you know, challenges periods of for the corporate and the board will say, you know, this division that is bleeding cash, why don't we shut it down? In therefore the only way for corporates to innovate efficiently is actually to invest in to invest in something that will make them irrelevant. So every corporates need to ask themselves one questions every year, right? What will make me irrelevant? What if this happens, my market is disappearing is is not going to be remained the same. So. So that might be digital camera for a codec. That might be Netflix for blockbuster, that might be the smartphones for the digital cameras. And if you can answer that, if you can basically say, You know what, in five years or in 10 years down the road, if this happens, I have no job for my cooperate, then you should invest in doing that. And you should either spin off or invest in a company that is doing that. Because you will not be able to carry that by yourself throughout the entire journey, you know,

David Novak 37:38 

are one of the things that you are you're a great storyteller. And what do you think makes a great story? And would you mind sharing, you know, what do you think is one of the most powerful stories you ever told to really get you where you needed to go next.

Uri Levine 37:52 

Something that is really important about telling the story story is not about facts. It's about creating emotional engagement, you can make people laugh, you can make people want to be part of the story. You can make people, you know, develop fairly strong emotional engagement with the story. And when you're doing that, then people actually sign up in they will sign up as customers, they will sign up as users, they will sign up as employees, they will sign up as investors because they want to be part of it. And so telling the good story is great critical. For investors, I would say the other part of the story is that they need to get convinced that you can deliver

David Novak 38:36 

and what was the best way you did to do that?

Uri Levine 38:39 

When we started ways. This is 2007. I was 42 years old with with, you know, wide of success stories throughout my career. So that by itself sends a very powerful message. But I think that the fundraising for ways the initial fundraising for ways was one of the most amazing stories, right? And, you know, we met a lot of investors and pretty much everyone said, No, I mean, there was one guy that told me, You know what, this is interesting. And we had more conversations, and they started to believe. And then they said, Okay, we need to do, you know, all partners meeting, and you need to come and present them. And we already had a demo running on a PDA or maybe more than a demo but an app running on a PDA and we realized that the biggest issue for people to capture is that the crowdsource can create the map. And so what we did before the meeting I asked the guy that was guiding us throughout this journey is give me the home addresses of all the partners of this fund. And we made sure that the these houses are on the map and on each and every street there are a few more houses on the map. And, you know, sure enough when we explained that the crowd source of the map the managing partner asked suddenly. So what you're telling me is that is possible that my house is on the map? And I told him, I don't know where you leave. But if you tell me we can find out right and and I was presenting that on the main screen and about the map. And sure enough, he was asked, okay, let me see if there are other houses on the map, right. And there was a few more houses on the back end. And that was the moment that it was clear that they are going to invest. That's a great story,

David Novak 40:24 

or how do you make decisions? You know, and I understand your your father gave you a great bit of advice on this one as well.

Uri Levine 40:31 

Yeah, you know, when I was young, one day, I approached my dad and I said, Look, I have these two alternatives, and I don't know which one to choose, and he reach out to his pocket and get a coin out and say they're gonna flip the coin. And before the Coin Drop, you're gonna make the call, right? And so, essentially, what is really important is that in many cases, we do know what is the right decision, but we are looking for confirmation. Now if we know what is the right decision, in for a second, I would call that gut feeling. So let me define gut feeling for you that's feeling is basically say, I'm going to take all of my experience. And in a swiftness of a second, I'm going to make the call in the beauty of that is that if you have experience, most likely your gut feeling is right. Now, if you don't have any experience, then you have no clue, right? And then you don't have a gut feeling. And this is really important, because at the end of the day, and I, by the way back to when I was 20 years, and I choose my path and and I make that call, what is really important to remember is that that was by definition, the right decisions, because you don't know what would be like, if you will choose a different path. And so when you make a decision, that's the only decision there is. And by definition, it's right decision. And this is really important. Because at the end of the day, and this is Harvard Business Review, you know, report on what makes successful CEOs making decision with conviction is number one. For startup CEOs, I will say there is something else there is something even more important than that. And this is the great the perseverance, right, the attitude of never giving up is even more important than making decision with conviction.

David Novak 42:12 

Last question, what's one piece of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders?

Uri Levine 42:17 

Let me define leadership, right? Leadership is that people would like to follow you, it's not that they have to they want. And you create that by serving as a simple yourself. You create that with consistency between what you say and what you do. And you create that by making decisions. Because one of the reason that you are the leader is that in order to make a decision, and you need to make a decision with conviction, and when you do that, then people would follow me and it's perfectly okay to say, Okay, this is where we are going. And three months later say You know what, we ran into a wall, we are going to go this direction, it's perfectly okay to change direction. It's not okay not to make a decision.

David Novak 43:10 

You know, you're a, this has been a fascinating conversation. And I want to thank you for all the good you're doing in the world. I mean, you're, you're motivated for all the right reasons with every startup you have. And you certainly have enriched a lot of people's lives because of your approach and how you get at it. And I want to thank you for taking the time to codify your learnings. You know, I think that that's so important, when you have so much to give, and you keep it to yourself, I think you're being selfish. And you're absolutely the opposite of that you're a very giving person and it's paying off for you in many different ways. So thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Uri Levine 43:45 

Thank you appreciate that.

David Novak 43:58 

Well, I gotta say, array sure has his pulse on what it takes to build a business that customers find value and keep coming back to. And I love that he's given us all permission to embrace uncertainty and get comfortable with failure. If you want to grow your company, or grow as a leader, you can't be afraid to try new things, even though some of those things might not work. Now, of course, you want to do your homework and use sound judgment and all that good stuff. But at some point, you've got to take action, even if you aren't sure. Summon your courage, decide with conviction, and just go for it. And hey, if things don't go as planned, learn your lessons, adjust your approach and keep moving forward. That's the mark of a successful leader. To apply this idea, I want you to spend some time this week reflecting on your career up to this point. Think about what of your own professional failures. If you're like me You won't have too much trouble recalling one of them. Ask yourself what happened as a result of that failure? What did you learn? How did the experience bring you to where you are today? The more you understand how your missteps have shaped you, the less likely you are to let a fear of failure keep you from whatever big things might be coming up next for you. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders aren't afraid to fail. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Chris Guidons, President and CEO Wawa

Chris Gheysens 45:34 

I learned in that journey, what makes me and this organization tick and it's not cutting, you don't cut your way to success and growth. You need it sometimes. But it's really investing. It's investing in people. It's investing in the communities you serve. And frankly, I think one's measure of success isn't the stock price growth, they had a CEO or it's not the revenue growth. It's the impact they left on the people in the communities they served when they're done. So be

David Novak 46:01 

sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be