David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. My guest today is Admiral Mike Mullen, the 17th, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he served in both the Bush and Obama administrations and retired in 2011, after 43 years of exemplary military service, I'm telling you, that kind of career gives you leadership wisdom, you just can't get any other way. And Mike is kind enough to share it with us today. He's a great American. And that's not a designation I use lightly. He's got so many incredible stories to share. And in every single one of you are going to see how to lead with integrity, how to be accountable, how to speak truth to power, and how to surround yourself with truth tellers when you're the one in charge. Plus, you do not want to miss his insights into what's going on in the world right now in Israel, Russia and China, and what that might mean for the future of our country. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Admiral Mike Mullen.

My kids, great to have you on the show. And I want to thank you so much for for your service.

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:33 

Thanks, David. It's great to be with you. It's a topic I really, really liked.

David Novak 1:37 

Well, I know that is I've done my research. And I want to talk to you about your time as the Joint Chiefs chair. But first, I want to take you back. You know, I understand that your mom and dad were in the entertainment business. How did that influence your perspective on leadership?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:55 

Well, at the time when I was growing up as a kid, I didn't think much about it. But as I was able to reflect as I became, you know, an adult, you know, I took from my family, I was the oldest of five kids, my parents were both depression, kids came from the Midwest, dad from Chicago, mom from Iowa. They went to California to find their dreams, and they found each other five kids, I was the oldest. And you know, my dad provided for us worked hard. He was very good at what he did. He was also a great communicator. He was a journalism major university of Illinois. And he read and wrote exceptionally well, as did my mother. And also in a combination, I think, from my mom and dad, I got a great set of values. And that struck me very well, not just as I became an adult, but as I became somebody that was fortunate enough to get into leadership positions. Do

David Novak 2:53 

you recall a specific story from your childhood that really had a major impact on how you basically attacked your career and lead,

Admiral Mike Mullen 3:00 

one of the principles for me is to be able to communicate, and I mentioned, my dad was a great communicator. And I've always, because of them raising me the way I did, I have tried very hard to communicate. I'm a Vietnam kid. And I mean, when I graduated from Annapolis, that was the first war I was in. And I felt very strongly about the fourth estate, I learned that growing up, and the value of it, and literally, that stuck with me my whole life. So when I was in a position of responsibility, as I became more and more senior, engaging, the fourth estate, engaging the media engaging, the American people became really, really critical and an opportunity to both tell my story with respect to the troops that I was leading the challenges of war, the losses in those wars, for example, etc. I mean, so that's one very specific, the other is just a value of great trust. You know, I was raised to trust people that was evident in my family. And it's part of the, what I bring as a leader. I teach a class at Annapolis now and one of the things we talk about is to these young graduating seniors at Annapolis, who soon be commissioned as young officers in the Navy Marine Corps. I asked them to go through what's their trust profile? Do they trust anybody? Are they going to trust their troops. And so I was raised in a very trusting environment, and I use that throughout my life, and that served me very well as, as well. And in any leadership environment. You have to earn trust. You have to be sustained and trust very specifically with your people. You need to trust them and they need to trust you. So that's another really big part of my life.

David Novak 4:48 

As I understand it, you've you flew a drone in 1969 and 70 in Vietnam, which I imagine was quite different from the drones that are flying today. What surprised you The most about the technological advances you've seen on the military front? Well,

Admiral Mike Mullen 5:05 

in some cases, how fast they occur. And that was an example. And what I've also seen in the wars that I've been in, specifically Iraq and Afghanistan is the urgency associated with war, the lives that you're focused on to make sure they have the best possible capabilities with him the best weapons, the best tactics. And when you're losing lives, you know, all the barriers to innovation and creativity come down pretty quickly, and nobody cares about who invented it. And you see technology evolve very, very rapidly. In wartime, I think one of the struggles when you're not in a war is how to create that same sense of urgency from a technological well, from many, many aspects. But certainly, as I watched it in medicine, or in aviation tactics, or in missile tactics, or in drone tactics, if you will, and capabilities. It was the wartime environment that really generated those kinds of technological changes that were incredibly effective. That

David Novak 6:09 

makes so much sense. And you had the honour of commanding a ship earlier in your career, and I believe you were in your mid 20s, tell us about that experience. And in the big learning that you pulled from it,

Admiral Mike Mullen 6:22 

my mentor, the reason I stayed in the Navy, and it was on my second, so we just made it really exciting, and what he was all about was commanded See, and that's really what when you go to see particularly as a young Surface Warfare Officer, which was my area of expertise, the crucible, if you will, and I think the most challenging and exciting job is commanding officer. And so as a young lieutenant, there weren't many ships to command at that level, my mentor had done that as well. And you weigh the risks, and I was advised by some not to take it because you could get in trouble. And that would really hurt your career. But others said, This is what it's all about. And so I elected to, to go to sea to take command as a young lieutenant and I was there for two and a half years. The downside of that was my first big what I would call failure, where I managed to crash my ship into a buoy, actually, very early in the tour, part of my skill set, I was a good ship driver, I knew how to go to sea, and I just miss judge something. And that generated an evaluation, which effectively ended my career. I fought back from that, because I wanted to command again, it took me about 11 years to recover from that. And when I talk about leadership, there's a risk piece there, I chose to take the risk, obviously, if you do, you know, that's a bet. And sometimes that pays off. And sometimes it doesn't. But I really did want to do it again, it took me about 11 years to professionally recover from that incident in which nobody was hurt, there was no damage to the ship, there was no damage to the brewery. But there was a new boss in town who decided to make an if he wanted to make an example of those that serve themselves up early. And I did that very early in his tenure. And so he generated this evaluation. And again, without that mentor that I talked about earlier, who knew the system better than I, I probably wouldn't have survived that. But with his guidance and, and support, I was able to figure out how to remove that evaluation from my record, which then 11 years later allowed me to go back to see and command again, from

David Novak 8:27 

that experience and just other experiences that you've had, what advice would you give leaders for how to show up when they or their teams fail? That's 11 years you spent that that's a long time to have to recover from something that, you know, that didn't cause any real harm?

Admiral Mike Mullen 8:44 

And one of the questions that also gets associated with that, is this what I would call zero defect mentality, can you make a mistake and survive, and we're all human, and we're gonna make mistakes. And I've got a lot of time for leaders that provide the range, if you will, for young people for it for actually for leaders to fail, it depends on what the failure is. I mean, part of the reason I love the Navy, and I love commanding ships was I was accountable. I was responsible for everything, but I was also accountable. And I knew that and the accountability aspect of it was absolutely critical. And I worry, quite frankly, that we're living in an environment right now where accountability is fleeting, in many, many professions. And I feel exactly the opposite. And then with respect to the failures, it's less to me, it's always been less about the failure. It's about what did you learn? How do you react? Do you get back up off the deck or off the floor, learn the lessons, become a better leader as a result of that, hold yourself accountable for your team and for what happened and then move forward. And that's what I was able to do on a couple of occasions and in both days. I failed as I mentioned this first time But I also failed pretty badly as a st more senior officer in the third command that I had. And again, I had mentors and in fact, I'd put my resignation letter together for that second big failure. And I was I had a couple of mentors who were senior to me that thought I had some potential. And they basically said, No, you don't need to do that. We need to basically watch and see if you learn these lessons. And if you do that, we think you'll be okay. And those are really key lessons to me in my own life that I also try to pass on to young people, as we're talking about leadership. You

David Novak 10:33 

know, you're also a person that speaks your mind. And you spoke, openly supporting gay military service. And you led the repeal of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell act. You know, what made you step out on that issue? What was the drove your leadership on that front?

Admiral Mike Mullen 10:51 

Well, the background on that was in 9293, when President Clinton was elected, and he wanted to do the same thing. And there was a lot of pushback. And Colin Powell, who was also a mentor of mine, when I was in the chairman's job, a friend and mentor, but Colin Powell, and the military leadership pushed back, which then generated the law, which was the Don't Ask, Don't Tell law and subsequent policy rule in 1993, I'm commanding a ship in Norfolk, Virginia, and carrying out my orders, I'm not paying a whole lot attention to what's going on with respect to this specific issue. But in 2008, when then candidate Obama was on the campaign trail and said, If I become President, I'm going to see that that law changes. Well, that got my attention. I'm chairman at the time, I'm the senior military officer in the country. And so I put a small group together to go look at the background what had happened over the last 15 years. Who are the players? Are any of them still around? Is there more literature on this, etc. And in 2008, again, we're heavy into war in both Iraq and Afghanistan. So that made it that much more challenging to address. And it turns out, there actually hadn't been a whole lot of work done on it, the country was in a much different position with respect to gays and lesbians in 2008, than it was in 1993. That said, we were complying with the law, which was Don't Ask, Don't Tell, in addition to this group that I put together, I would do my own sampling, if you will, or, you know, my own field studies, when I would travel, which I traveled a lot. And I would be with, oftentimes, you know, very, very young people. And, you know, I describe it as, and it was hard to get a meaningful discussion to occur with most of the young groups, because they had grown up in this environment, much more so than I had, or most of the people that I had come up through the Navy in the military with, it wasn't a topic that interested them a great deal. They didn't understand why it was such a big deal and why we didn't just get on with it. It was in those focus groups, though, that I really started to hear from those, particularly those who had spent 20 years or 25 or 30 years in the military, what they went through essentially, every single day, worried about being outed, and basically having to lie about who they were, while serving the country that intensified for me, because we're now at war. I'm losing young men and women, actually, they're sacrificing their lives. So what happened out of that is it became an issue of integrity and other value that I just hang my hat on and have for a long time. And that's what got me to the point where I testified that, from my perspective, this was very much an issue about the integrity of value, you know, that we cherish as an institution. And yet we're asking young people to sacrifice their lives, risk their lives, and lie about who they were. And that was really the turning point for me. And actually, as it turned out, that was a turning point in the debate.

Koula Callahan 13:56 

Have you ever wondered what David is thinking as he interviews our guests each week? Or have you been interested in hearing David's take on some of the questions that he asks his guest? Well, I do and I know a lot of you do, too. My name is Kula Callahan. And together with David, I host the three more questions podcast that airs every Monday. These episodes are just about 15 minutes and in them, I asked David three questions that dive deeper into the themes of his episode with his guests. David shares incredible insights and stories from his career leading yum brands and all of His answers are super practical and inspiring. Like this great insight David shared and one of our most recent, three more questions episodes.

David Novak 14:38 

I think the first thing that you drive home is the importance of competence. You really try to teach your people that they need to know their trade, they need to know their job. They need to know what it is that needs to be done to get to excellent performance. And then once someone is competent, then you You can say, it's time to be confident, it's time for you to make decisions based on the competence that you have. But decision making without competence is rarely, right. So it's a combination of driving competence and confidence. And that's how you make quick decisions. Get

Koula Callahan 15:21 

the three more questions, podcasts and your feed each Monday and dive even deeper into the episodes you know and love. Just subscribe to how leaders lead wherever you get your podcasts.

David Novak 15:39 

In 2007, you were nominated by President George W. Bush to be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And now you're overseeing 2.2 million men and women in the armed forces. As a Navy guy who needed to understand the army and all the branches of our military. How do you go about building your know how?

Admiral Mike Mullen 15:57 

Well it was big challenge. I mean, I'm in two wars, I, obviously, in their ground wars, and I'm a sailor, and I don't know how else to attack that except get on the ground with them. I mean, I think within I think it was within 24 or 48 hours, you know, I'm on a flight to Iraq and Afghanistan. And one of the things that you learn in the Navy on a ship is you're with your troops all the time, and you've got three or 400 of them, they're never that far away. And part of my style was to be out and about, some call it management by walking around, but I was always tried to be on, you know, with my troops in their spaces, so I could understand what they were being asked to do. So I could understand was my guidance being accurately executed. And then literally, I did that my whole life. Well, that's essentially what I did is a Navy admiral, that's now the Chairman, that I've got to make sure these young men or women have what they need when they need it, I need to understand the situation as best I can on the ground. And so I spent a lot of time in particular, with the Army, the Navy in the Marine Corps in the same department, if you will, but I didn't know the army that well. So and it wasn't just me, it was it was my wife, Deborah, that when I was, I mean, I would travel overseas on there and be on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan to learn as much as I could. But we also traveled around the country to various posts, that we had never been in mostly army posts, to learn the same kind of thing. And while I would visit the troops, Deb would visit families. And again, there were families whose who never saw their husband or their wife, again, because they were killed. They were many, many that were wounded. So we did that. And back to my risk profile. When I was ahead of the Navy, I made a conscious decision to be gone out of DC, about 25% of the time, it's always risky, you know, not being at a meeting. Yeah. Because things can happen that you don't really get to vote on as vociferous ly as you might, if you were sitting in the chair, or sitting in the room. I upped that from 25 to 40%, when I was chairman for the reason that I just described, to figure out what in particular my army was going through and how to address the issues. So that was normal in terms of my leadership style, but obviously different because I'm in a new organization, I would have Navy friends asked me I was doing it so much with the army and with the Air Force, as well that my navy friends would say, Are you ever coming back to us, you're going to you're going to ever visit a Navy base again, I felt a requirement of the job. But to understand that 2.2 million men and women that I was leading, I needed to know what they were up to. And could I and I was making decisions every day that affected their lives. And I wanted to get those decisions as close to right as I possibly could, you

David Novak 18:49 

know, one of your key leadership tenants is promoting healthy debate. Can you tell me about a time when a president was going to make a decision or made a decision that you really push back on and as a as a up and coming leader? What's the best way to to present an alternative point of view?

Admiral Mike Mullen 19:09 

First of all, you have to know what you're talking about. You have to study it to make sure you really know the facts. In many cases. For me, it was facts on the ground. You need to know the history specifically. And then you have to figure out with what you're responsible for what's you know, what's your best recommendation? What is sometimes misunderstood, is the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff is in charge of nothing. Basically, the chairman, the Joint Chiefs of Staff is an adviser to the president to the National Security Council, to the Secretary and an advisor to the Secretary of Defense. And so you essentially are tasked to give your advice and a healthy environment in which you find yourselves that advice you give privately in meetings that either you know, in some cases, very small meetings with the president two or three or four of us, but in most cases it's at the National curity Council where these major issues are debated. And then what happens is the President makes a decision, whatever that decision is, then you march off, really as as if it were yours kind of thing. It's an incredibly challenging environment for any military leader, particularly because you're working in a political environment, which is what the White House is, and what Washington is, in so many ways. The challenge and part of it goes back to my upbringing, you know, part of me, I was raised to tell the truth, and to be pretty straightforward. And I talked about, you know, communicating and actually being pretty public. In some of those communications, I think, Bob Gates, in his book called duty, which I haven't read, you know, cover to cover, I've read parts of it, because I'm not a big Washington, DC book fan. But I think, you know, basically, somewhere in that book, Bob said that I, in my public persona, you know, I ticked off both the Bush and the Obama administration equally, which, from my perspective, that was mean, I had it about right. But this was also what I would call the scars of Vietnam. And we went through a lot in that Vietnam era, and in that war, and that was the first war I was in, and all the challenges that the country had back then, in which case, you know, I wore those scars, my whole life. And some of that was nobody knew. First of all, we blamed the military for the war, the country did. And secondly, there was an awful lot of people that, you know, we didn't know, we hid what was going on from the American people in many cases. And I was a believer in our big believer in our democracy. And I wanted to make sure the American people understood as much about what we were doing as we possibly as I possibly could, obviously, within classified or unclassified boundaries. But I wanted, I mean, Deb, and I went to innumerable funerals. We also made many, many trips to Dover, where the, for the distinguished transfer of the remains of those who were killed, in particular in Iraq and Afghanistan, and spend time with those families. And I wanted these families to not just think about this big machine, if you will, it is the military, but there's a human face, humans behind it, and to put a face on that all of which I learned, quite frankly, from Vietnam. And again, sometimes that didn't work out, as well as what either administration would like from their perspective, but it would, it's what I was going to do, and I thought it was really important, you know, in that job, particularly during the war,

David Novak 22:38 

that's very sobering. And it's also great to hear how compassionate you were to do that as as a leader. And, you know, I would also imagine in a job like you had that it would be hard for people to bring you bad news. You know, how did you go about as a leader encouraging people to bring you the facts?

Admiral Mike Mullen 23:01 

Well, I know that's a huge issue. And you hear this, the phrase is truth to power, you know, easy to say, tough to do. Everybody always wants to have the boss smiling. Nobody ever wants to tick the boss off, you know, that kind of thing. And yet, so I mean, I had known that forever. And what I tried to do, and we talked a little bit about this earlier was be out and about enough, particularly with the troops. And the young ones were pretty good about telling me like it was if I'm with a helicopter, an army helicopter mechanic doesn't have parts to keep the, you know, the Apache helicopters go in, in a combat zone, they're pretty open, and they'll tell me, this is what I need. Now, the chain of command doesn't like that a lot. But that's the kind of feedback I'll take and then figure out as a leader how to fix and I won't cut off anybody's head, you know, in route to doing that, if you will. But at the same time, I was pretty persistent, and relentless, if you will, in terms of sticking with what needed to happen in the system to solve that kind of a problem. I would another area that was not uncommon was the medical area where our field hospitals, if we could get you if you got wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan, and we could get you to the right level of field hospital within the hour, your chances of surviving were 95% and so did we have the right number did we have the transportation did we have the people those kinds of things, and finding that information out when we're short? You know, can be very, very difficult. If you can imagine and I tell this story about there's this little ante room outside the Oval Office, and I watched a lot of people that we're going to be very strong with a president about telling them something I used to describe it as that that famous door into the Oval Office. What nobody knows is above that door is you know, Tinkerbell and soon as you walk in there Tinkerbell hits you with the gold dust. Stan, you're just not as tough. As you thought you were to tell the most powerful person in the world, here's exactly where it stands. So I know that's a challenge. I think all leaders have to have, you know, people around them, usually at least one, if not a couple, who will close the door and say, Hey, you got this exactly wrong. And I was blessed to have a guy named John Kirby, who was my public affairs officer for 10 years and is now on the National Security Council. You see him frequently in the Biden administration. But when he was in uniform with me, he's the one that would close the door and say, you got that completely wrong. And I expected that That's never easy medicine to take. But it was really important medicine to have. And it was I had actually two or three that would do that fairly routinely. And I had a very diverse group of advisors, which I depended on, one for that truth and two for different opinions. I feel very strongly that for major decisions, the more diverse views I have, as a leader, the better decision I'm going to make, you know, when it comes down to, to the really, really tough, consequential decisions.

David Novak 26:11 

You work for two presidents, you first worked with George W. Bush, and you remained in the role when President Obama took office. Tell us a story about how you briefed Obama on what he was inheriting? Obviously, he comes in as a new guy he wants to be with you. How would you describe what was going on at the time, and if he could share that conversation be great? Well,

Admiral Mike Mullen 26:34 

he called within, I think two or three days, he has staff called within two or three days, he's in Chicago. And he asked me to come out and see him and just meet with him. And so I did that I basically just took one aid with me, and went to Chicago and met him and met, actually Rahm Emanuel, who I think had just been designated as the future Chief of Staff. And we got basically, it was just then President elect Obama and myself, and one of his trusted aides, a guy named Mark Lippert that I knew pretty well, Mark was a reserve Lieutenant Commander, I think in the Navy entail, so I knew mark a little bit, as well. And he basically was a note taker. But what President Obama said what I remember President Obama saying at the beginning of the meeting was okay, I've caught the bus, tell me what's on it. And I said, This bus is loaded. And we started to kind of go through what was on the bus, which was an awful lot. And we had a really good, long, you know, two or three hour conversation about all the national security challenges, if you will, it was certainly part of my writ. And that was my initial that was, wasn't the first time I had met him. I'd met him one time as a senator, really just in passing. But that was the first time I ever really had a conversation with him. I

David Novak 27:57 

got to ask you tell me about your leadership role in taking out Osama bin Laden. And if you could, please tell me about that historic photo of when you're standing right next to Obama, when all this was going on.

Admiral Mike Mullen 28:10 

When people asked me about what was the best day you had as chairman, it was the day we killed Bin Laden because of the justice that brought a really evil guy. And we had been looking for him for, you know, over a decade. And like many things like that, that had been in the works for months, in terms of the planning, et cetera. And back to leadership style, I had been out at one point in time, I'd been out for a full dress rehearsal, where we actually had built a compound, very similar, where we're Bin Laden, it turns out bin Laden was and washed a rehearsal there. And I at the end of that rehearsal, I went up and shook hands with roughly 50 seals, who were the seals that were going to go in and wanted to meet each one of them. I wanted to know that look them in the eye, I want them to know that they had the confidence of their leadership. And again, I wanted to have seen enough to be able to brief the President on my confidence level that they could carry off this mission, because we hadn't had a final briefing on that yet. There have been many rehearsals. But that was the kind of that was the final dress rehearsal. And so then then the moment came or that day came, which was a Sunday, as it turns out, we had delayed the operation 24 hours. And we had actually all of us had gone to this major gala event every year called the White House Correspondents dinner on Saturday night. And the President had made the decision the day before, I think Friday morning. So the whole thing was rolling. And the only reason anybody particularly Admiral McRaven would be in touch with me at that point is something went wrong. And I knew this scenario and I knew what was moving, etcetera. But we all went to this dinner Saturday night, and everybody was aware that the thing was moving. And as a friend of mine said, lay Iran, you must, you know, you're not somebody I really want to play a lot of poker with. Because obviously no, but I didn't say anything and nobody said anything. So Sunday comes around, and it's mid day. And I just tell Deb, I'm gonna go into the office and over the White House, which was not a totally uncommon thing on the weekend. And then the operation, you know, got underway. What that photo captures more than anything else. And that's not the actual situation room, that's a little ante room, off the Situation Room, everybody was jammed into which four months, when asked, and there's a there's a fun YouTube clip of myself on David Letterman not too long after this a couple months later, and Letterman was beaten me to death to say, what were you looking at, and back then it was just too highly classified. Nobody said what it was. But what was clearly a video of the operation. And that where I ended up right behind the President was, that was the corner I you know, it was the only open slot, when I finally I was almost the last one in the room. And I think what their photo captures more anything else is just the level of intensity that that existed, you know, in that operation. It was an extraordinary operation performed by extraordinary individuals. And a couple of things about well, one is I thought the President made a courageous decision to go because we didn't have a smoking gun. And if you go back and pull his poll numbers, and in May of 2010, as we were coming up for another election, or he was coming up for another election, they weren't that good. So I think it was a bet the presidency back to risk leaders taking risky was a bet the presidency decision. And to give the president credit where credit's due, he actually directed us to put in an additional helicopter just as backup, and then it turns out, we lost a helicopter. And that additional helicopter was the one that provided the the transportation for about half the seals, you know, out of the compound during the at the end of the operation. And then it turns out, obviously, it went exceptionally well. And we brought a guy to justice, who who had killed, you know, almost 3000 Americans, and we've been on the hunt for for a long time.

David Novak 32:09 

That was such a great moment for the world, and certainly for all of us, Americans. And thank you for the role that you played in that it did. It did. It's kind of a month later, you're on the Letterman Show, for goodness sakes. What was what was that? Like?

Admiral Mike Mullen 32:24 

When people asked me, you know, what do you care? What was your best moment it was killing bin Laden. But the other the book end of that story was, I think, just a few weeks later, we lost 38 troops in Afghanistan with a helicopter that had gotten shot down, nine of whom I think was nine of whom were actually Afghan soldiers. But not too long after that, you know, I was burying 13 seals in Arlington that were on that helicopter. And you know, I describe it in a sort of the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. And in fact, we had gone to a big event up in New York, put on by Robin Hood every year to raise money. And we were at a table and my wife and Deb was sitting next to Letterman. This was a week after we killed Bin Laden. So it was pretty exciting. Tom Brokaw was there it was going to interview me on stage, you know, all of that kind of thing. But what we took away was there was an opportunity with Letterman, because he's, you know, he sees three to 4 million Americans every single night. And there was a lot that we could sort of back to sort of the public relations piece that we could talk about our military, through Letterman. And so so literally the next week, his staff called and said, LeBron wants to have you on well, not too long after that we had that tragedy. So we waited several weeks before I went on Letterman. And then it turns out, I didn't know. I mean, I'd been on shows before, not his I didn't really know how long I was going to be on. And then it turns out I was I was the only guest he I think he had Betty White do the top 10 at the beginning. And then there was someone at the end that did a short clip, but I was on that I was basically the only guest for this show. And to give him credit. And you know, he's a very successful guy. He really did his homework, and we had great fun with it. And part of that was also though, to get the word out to the 4 million people who may not know a whole lot about us as a military and our families to get that word out on that path as well back to the communication piece and the public relations piece. And the connection with America. So it was all it all sort of came together with Letterman. Obviously

David Novak 34:34 

your parents were great communicators. So you're born with some of that talent. And you obviously believe in the importance of communication as a leader. How do you get so good at it yourself?

Admiral Mike Mullen 34:48 

Well, you do it a lot. I mean, back to I had a terrific public affairs officer and then you just start to get exposure I but I can remember I mean before I took the chairman's job I was head of the Navy, I was a chief of naval operations for two years. And before that I'd had two other forced our jobs. And those jobs always require some amount of public relations and exposure. But what what happened, you know, if you're head of the Navy, your audience is it's a critical audience. But it's a pretty small audience, even even in war, which we were, it was a relatively speaking a pretty small audience, but it's one that I tried to engage. And I, I also did it very publicly, I was probably the only senior officer you'll ever talk to, if you talk to others, that I actually really enjoyed going to the hill and testifying, because that was an opportunity, again, to tell my story about my Navy or the you know, all the services when I was chairman, recognizing that the stars of the show are the people on the Hill. But at the same time, I'd have an opportunity to message the military to message the American people to message the critical people who make decisions about our military on the hill. So again, it you know, it was, it was a great opportunity in that regard. But when I moved from the head of the Navy, and I moved with, again, with John Kirby to the chairman's job, this is now I'm going from a very small audience to a global audience. And I've been around a while, I mean, I understood a lot about the international audience, and other countries as well. So you're going from, let's say, triple A ball to what I would call, you know, the major leagues at that point, and you did a lot, we engaged a lot and individual leaders make choices about how much they want to engage, because it can be pretty uncomfortable. But I chose to do it. And actually, I was working for a great boss and Bob Gates, who felt much the same way, that communication was really critical. And we would do press briefings in the Pentagon, almost as often as we could either weekly or bi weekly. But I would also do them by myself, I always took press on the plane, you know, on the trips with me, for the same reasons. So they could see what I was seeing. And then, you know, they could ask me about it. And that created challenges that uncovered problems, but I was willing to address those and take the risk, if you will, of certain stories coming out. That might be seen in a negative way to have that. I mean, one last story on and I can remember the one of the real, one of the real difficult moments for the government. Senator Reid, I think is the majority leader at the time. And I'm in Afghanistan, and one of the guy named Jim lukaszewski, who was an NBC reporter in the Pentagon, they were about to shut the government down again. And mixer, Stephanie asked me when I've got 1000 troops right in front of me, whether if we shut the government down, the troops were gonna get paid. And my understanding was, that was not the case. And in fact, that went straight to the Senate, you know, live got to read, and he basically made the adjustment to make sure whatever they were going to do the troops were not going to get paid, particularly when you're fighting two wars,

David Novak 38:06 

you know, having served with with both, what was the biggest difference between Bush and Obama and how they lead?

Admiral Mike Mullen 38:14 

Well, there's a fun story associated with that after President Obama came in Secretary Gates and I went on, we went on separate Sunday morning shows. And both of us not surprisingly, got asked that question, you know, you've been with President Bush, are you a president? What's the difference? I demure rd in answering that question, because it's just not too good. It's not good to compare presidents publicly. And, and for some reason, Bob Gates answered the question. And he's an incredible guy. But he had, he had served mostly with Republican administrations, I mean, served with both. But certainly he was there. He came in under President Bush, whatever his answer was, the White House was not happy with it. And we live next to each other. And I went over on a compound near the State Department and I saw Bob, this was son. That was Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, I went over to talk to Bob about something and I said something along the lines of what were you thinking? He goes, I have no idea what I was thinking by answering that question. What is important, though, in my time, and actually Bob's time as well, you know, I came into the Bush administration in the middle of the Iraq search. The Iraq war, you know, had been going on. This was, you know, since 2003, this when I came in, in 2007. It hadn't gone well for President Bush, and everybody that was associated with it. And they had expended a tremendous amount of energy, you know, on the war itself. So it was at the end of the administration, and they were, you know, the whole administration was tired and the war was tough. And then, you know, you bring in a brand new President Obama, who's got a different worldview and you know, both of them how Highly, highly principled individuals that want to do the best they could. For the American people, there's no question about that. They just had different worldviews. But you President Obama comes in with hope and change. It's all the energy that's associated with that. So it's a totally different environment. Now, obviously, President Obama over time was dealing with what was on that bus, which was a lot. And it's a it's a job that has just extraordinary pressures and extraordinary challenges that sometimes, you know, I actually scratch my head, how anybody could actually do it, and why so many would want to do it. But they obviously handled themselves differently, but to patriots and dedicated people that want to get it right for the American people.

David Novak 40:44 

Now, I may have this wrong, but my understanding is you were actually vetted as a potential vice president for Michael Bloomberg, when he was running, you know, was that a job nest that you were necessarily excited about? And, you know, when you think about being the president, which could be a possibility, in that case, is that a job you would really love doing?

Admiral Mike Mullen 41:07 

This was in 2016, when Mike was thinking very seriously about becoming a third party candidate. And it turns out with a third party candidate, or if you're going to have a third party, slate, if you announce that you have to announce both positions, President obviously in Mike's case, he wouldn't be going for President he needed the Vice President to go with you. Because you're not having a convention, you don't have a party, you know, all that kind of stuff. I knew him when I was chairman back in 2007, or 2008. I think I'd met him and we'd become pretty good friends. Because and this is another leadership issue, because people in those leadership positions actually need friends, you know, people that are actually in leadership positions that understand what they're going through. But we've become pretty close friends, and I was on his philanthropy board. I've been on his Lanthier board for a few years. And I still am as we speak today. And so he asked if it would be okay, if he would vet me. And I said, Yes. Thinking he was vetting three or four people, it turns out, he was only betting one and I carry with me I have at home, I don't have it with me, I carried with me for quite a while. 27 pages of questions that the quote unquote friendly lawyers put together to vet me and I wasn't one I wasn't an unknown person. Totally. I mean, I was unknown politically, I understand that. But when you go through that the 27 pages from the friendly lawyers, you know, that in and of itself becomes prima fascia evidence why people won't go do this. And it was a pretty difficult conversation to have with Deb in my family, not that we weren't dear to serve. But we, you know, we've done it for 43 years, we had sort of just gotten organized as a family. I've got kids and grandkids I want to spend time with. And I understand that environment, I'd be right back in it. And also, what I also learned, what will are a couple of things. One is that world is not us, if you will. And it's not the military. And I had a long conversation with Colin Powell about this, who was who was looked at very seriously, after the first Clinton term to do the same thing. It isn't who we are, value base is a little different. And then secondly, it was less about whether I or I thought Mike could do the job, because I'd seen the job done with a caveat I talked about earlier, it's an impossible job. But it was, were you a member what I would call of the tribe. And if you were not, you know, if you didn't grow up in the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, they would essentially, make sure you didn't have much of a future. So in the end, Mike made the decision to not come in as a third party candidate. So I didn't have to make the decision. Yes or no. But it was a difficult conversation to have in our family as well. So

David Novak 44:04 

you served in the military service for 43 years? How do you know it was time to step down and move on?

Admiral Mike Mullen 44:13 

Well, legally, you have to there was an expectation. You know, when I was coming up through the ranks, I had no expectation I'd be a flag officer, much less come up through the flag community from one to four stars. And had I commanded just three ships up through the time, I would have been a Navy captain or equivalent as an army colonel. And the Navy said, You're not going to get promoted. And there are ways that you get that message. I would have saluted and said thank you very much. I've had a blast. And that would have been I was at about the 22 or 23 year point, and I'd have gone on you know, with the rest of my life, the Navy, obviously thought I had a future started putting me in positions to get promoted. And so you know, it became you No a different outcome in that regard. But you are you are legally you can only be in these flag positions, I'm sorry, flag pay grades, one star, two star, three star four star for so many years, and you have to go. So if you don't get promoted, it's time to go. And you know that. So when I went in, and as the head of the Navy in 2005, my plan was to retire in 2009. And we had been called to that job from overseas being overseas in Italy, where I was in a NATO job, a four star job over there, with every expectation I'd be there two or three years and retire, I got called to be the head of the Navy. And then two years in, and this is a this is a leadership lesson as well, I was reasonably attune I thought I was to what was going on, I'd been there two years, it had been going pretty going well as the head of the Navy, we were in these wars, I was really deep into trying to figure out how to be the best member of the Joint Chiefs, I could as a head of the Navy. Deb was deep into family programs and family issues. And things are going pretty well. And I go see Bob Gates on a Thursday afternoon. And I walk in and this is in May of 2007. And it was it was on a topic that I want to talk to him about. But I walk into his office. And the first thing I noticed is his principal horse holder is not there. And so I go something's up here. And I gates asked me to sit down at this little table next to his desk. And he starts talking to me in about 20 seconds when I figure out where this is going, that he's going to ask me to or the president's going to ask me to become the chairman, all of us thought that general Pete pace, who was the chairman was going to be there for another two years. At that point in time each increment was two years long. And typically you serve two two year tours. So I go into this sort of, it's almost like a movie one of those movies where you, you can kind of hear the sound. And here I'm talking but you're in disbelief at what you're seeing. And then about a minute or minute and a half later by I can see Bob's gonna actually wrap up ask the question, and I refocus. So it shocked me, you know, so you never really know, you can never be sure you know, everything that's going on. And then Deb and I talked about it that night, agreed to do it together. And so that became four more years. But at the end of those four years, that was it. You know, I knew I was going, and I didn't have we talked about leaving nothing on the field. There was nothing on the field for either one of us. Do you miss it? Yeah. I do miss the troops. You know, you miss that in the families, you know that. That was a real privilege. That was very, very special my whole life. But particularly in those, you know, in those years during the wars, I mean, it was, again, never expected. And I do miss that. But no, I don't miss the grind. And I don't miss. I mean, as we're speaking we've you know, my successor couple times removed, you know, Mark Milley has just retired, the environment in Washington is and it was tough when I was there, it's much more difficult now, for any serving Chairman, and I don't miss that either.

David Novak 48:27 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Admiral Mike Mullen in just a moment. As you can hear, Mike operates with a clear set of values. And you know, a lot of great leaders talk about the importance of their core values, including Steve Holmes, the non executive chairman of Wyndham hotels and resorts and travel and leisure company. In my conversation with Steve, he shares more about how to define your core values, and then really live them out.

Steve Holmes 48:52 

If you're the person that people are looking up to, you have to let people know what you believe in. And when I had a chance to do that, as CEO, it was just taking what I had done before, and putting it into a much larger scale. What I learned early on was, there are core values in your life, you have to respect people you have to I won't go through all the core values, but you have to, you have to have those values. And then you apply them to wherever you are. And in this case, I became the CEO of an organization. And I went around and I explained to people, these are my values. And this is how we're going to run the business. There was not a huge change in the way I managed going from one to the other. It's just being consistent, communicating well, and letting people know what you stand for because they're looking to you to know how they should make their decisions and you want to lead by example.

David Novak 49:43 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Steve episode 112 here on how leaders lead

at the time Um, you and I are talking here, you know, Israel is at war with Hamas after unprecedented attacks? How should we be thinking about that as United States citizens? And what should we be doing from a leadership perspective from your view. So

Admiral Mike Mullen 50:15 

it's a really dangerous time, my biggest concern right now and the tragedies and just my hearts, thoughts, prayers, condolences go out to those who have lost family members, and those who doubt and also those who are being held hostage and prayers, that somehow those who are being held hostage will be okay. My biggest fear right now is that this will break out into a major conflict and spin out of control. So from my point of view, were I in a position of leadership, I would be pushing, particularly the intelligent side of the world to understand who was involved in this and do everything I possibly could to make sure that this does not spin out of control into a major war in the Middle East, which would be a disaster. And I'd want to know it from every perspective, I want to know it from the Hamas perspective, from the Hezbollah perspective, from the Syrian perspective, from the Iranian perspective, from the Saudi in particular, Saudi UAE, Kuwait, Qatar perspective, the Middle East perspective, the Egyptian perspective, and I wouldn't be spending my time trying to understand that that whole aspect of it as best I possibly could, to figure out a way for this to not absolutely break out in a way that would be a disaster. It's hard for me to believe and again, I'm on the outside, I haven't seen the Intel, obviously, this was a major Intel failure. And I think in time, you know, we'll figure that out. What we need to do right now is focus on the current situation, make sure Israel is fully supported in what they're doing in every possible way. And I think our president is doing that. And I listened to his speech today, in this unbelievably difficult situation, and that the State of Israel is preserved for, you know, as the Jewish state. And that is not in any way at risk, you know, over the long term. Part of me is I can't believe, and this was obviously an incredibly well planned and sophisticated operation that had to be planned over many, many months, if not years, the operational security, the fact that nothing leaked on this, when you have the 1000s of people that were involved in this is stunning to me, achieving that objective is just remarkable. But in one way, this is a suicidal mission for i This is how I think about it. This is a suicidal attack on the part of Hamas, I can't believe Israel won't do everything it possibly can to wipe them out. And then that then that is a way that gets tied to Hezbollah, and Iran, who I believe is complicit in this even though we have no smoking gun. And that my expectation, is that how Israel will respond, then how does that situation? And how do we think about that at a time where we are at war, we're supporting sorry, that Ukraine, you know, who've been so incredibly strong in fighting for their country, and we and others in supporting that, and where it goes with respect to Russia, which is very difficult to know, I think, in the long run, Russia is not going to go away. I think they've been devastated militarily, politically, diplomatically, even economically, but Russia is, you know, is a huge part of the continent. And we need to figure out one of the questions I asked when this broke out. A year ago, February was what we're going to do with 140 million Russians and 40 million Ukrainians, the people that are less the politicians, and we're never going to be able to ignore Russia. How does that fit into the future is a is another one of those great and grave questions that we have to answer. And then the extension of that same kind of what's going on in the world is the challenge that we've got in the West a longer term challenge we've got with China, in the Pacific visa vie, I've spent a fair amount of time in the last year or year and a half on the Taiwan issue, which is an unbelievably complex, dangerous issue in and of itself. So the challenges are, you know, they just abound and we need leaders back to sort of the you know, the topic here we need leaders to You take us through these very, very difficult times and leaders that do it together. So all this may seem unrelated, but it is related. And then I come back to one of the things it's, you know, I said many years ago, David, when asked what the threat, biggest threat to our country was, I said, our national debt, which was kind of a surprise answer. And as I point out to people, that was, I think, in 2010, our debt was 10 trillion. You know, it's now 33 trillion. And I it is a huge, huge issue. But if you ask me that question, now, I think the number one threat to our country is us. And the division that's here and the democracy, which I believe is much more fragile. You know, I took it for granted for 70 plus years, it treated me pretty well. And I think January 6, unveiled to me how fragile it actually was, is, and that we have to handle that very, very carefully. And if we're not careful, we're going to lose the democracy that is so critical to us, and I think critical to democratic countries and democratic peoples around the world. You know,

David Novak 56:06 

it's, it's, it is a dangerous time, there's no doubt about it. And when you think about everything is going on now in Israel, combine it with Russia, the threat of nuclear activity of nuclear war i Do you see that? I mean, it scares the hell out of me?

Admiral Mike Mullen 56:23 

Well, it should, it ought to scare all of us. You know, I've, I spent a fair amount of time. I mean, I, in my first job, when I was an incident, I was a nuclear weapons officer on my destroyer out of Long Beach, California. So I've been around nuclear weapons in some way, seemingly my whole life. And I ended up being one of the negotiators for the treaty with the Russians in 2010, which is about to expire will expire in 2026. And Russia has walked away from it. So the treaties which have been in place since 1972, to regulate control and SPECT, assure compliance between the Soviet Union and Russia and us, that's going away at a time where China is now building its nuclear arsenal. And we'll have one, if you believe what's out there publicly, that is the equivalent of what Russia and the United States has in about 2035. And so far, China has been unwilling to come in and join the treaty discussions, if you will, I'm hopeful over the long run that they'll, they'll actually see the light in the benefit. Because these weapons are just, we forget, I mean, because it happened so long ago, but they're the most devastating weapons put on Earth, and no one ever wants to see them used. And there are processes and procedures to control them, if you will, in a way so that they are never used. But it's a growing concern. It's been a great concern, obviously, with Russia and Ukraine, although it appears that President Putin has chosen to not use them. And you never know for sure. I don't trust the guy at all. I think he's the most dangerous guy on Earth, actually. But at the same time, it appears in this war with Ukraine. He's chosen not to use them. And I just hope, I hope he doesn't, in any way, shape, or form. And then we've got the the leader in North Korea, who continues to develop them. I actually think if he used one that he and his regime would get annihilated as a result of that. So I'm hopeful that somehow he'll see some wisdom there with respect to not using those weapons, which he continues to develop, as well. Admiral

David Novak 58:45 

as as a leader, how would you undo what seems like an inevitable collision with China?

Admiral Mike Mullen 58:50 

I'm watching very carefully, the interaction between President Biden presidency, I worry a great deal that actually, this relationship, I believe, is the most difficult relationship I've ever seen, and that we're slowly coming apart, if they don't lead us to a constructive coexistence. If the leaders don't lead us in that direction, then I think it goes in the other direction. And I actually believe it's the most dangerous time since 1962, which was the Cuban Missile Crisis, because of the capabilities that we are developing, and the danger of us going to war over Taiwan. Taiwan is increasingly independent minded. You know, and I'm a big believer in the One China policy, but that it be, you know, reconciled, and resolved peacefully. That's a much more difficult discussion to have right now. After what China has done in Hong Kong, where that was, quote unquote, you know, one country two systems that supposedly was some version of How are we supposed to come out in Taiwan? Taiwan is having elections this year, they've got election in January, the party in power right now is more independent minded. They also sit at the center of the economies of the world, because of the semiconductor industry in Taiwan, the most critical semiconductor manufacturer in the world is, is TSMC, they make the most advanced semiconductors. And if Taiwan is in a war, the TSMC goes down, if TSMC goes down, in many ways, the economies of the world go down. So it's a very, very dangerous situation, that my expectations are, it's what leaders get paid for is to make sure that this goes in the right direction, not the wrong direction.

David Novak 1:00:51 

Well, you know, speaking of danger, I've got one more question. And this is also just sobering discussion here. You know, you mentioned the Israel Hamas issue was a major Intel failure, which is pretty obvious. And Israel is known for being the best in the world at this, or at least a lot of people feel that way. You know, how safe should we feel in the United States?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:01:17 

I mean, a lot of the part of the discussion Israel right now or about what's happened is, it's, you know, it's Israel's 911. And obviously, there are differences, but I think they were taken completely by surprise. And again, as we talked earlier, I think at some point in time, that'll get all sorted out, and what changes that need to be made. If you've been in Israel, even as many times as I've been, I'm always reminded, when I go back there that this is a tough neighborhood surrounded by enemies, their whole existence is, you know, focused on them taken care of themselves, and they're really good at it. And they have to make, we have to make sure that they can continue to do that. In the future. We've been great supporters of them since 1948. And I'm sure we will continue to be to basically make sure that their future is very robust. But the consequences of this, and the surprise that generated, you know, the fact that it occurred, I mean, they're, they're going to be long standing, they'll be remembered for, you know, as far into the future as we can think, from a security standpoint, here in the US. And one of the things I pointed out as bad and tragic as 911 was, you know, we've had 10s of 1000s of people working, you know, since then to make sure something like that never happens again, and it has not unknown, those great patriots, in our government, in particular, and in our cities and states are up, you know, they've been amazingly effective. And, and so far, we haven't had a recurrence, I would never want to be overly comfortable or complacent. With respect to these kinds of security threats, those same terrorists we went after in Afghanistan, they still aspire to do us as much damage as possible. And we need to be aware of that. And we need to make sure we do everything we can to make sure that they are unable to succeed in their mission. And in the long run, David, I believe, and I've been through a lot with young people in that part of the world, the young ones that put on suicide vests there, they don't have any hope. They don't see much of a future. And I think the world's got to figure out a way to help those developing countries create opportunities for themselves, so that young people actually see a future and have some hope. So instead of putting on a suicide vest, and executing as many innocents as they possibly can, rather, getting an education and contributing to society to make their own countries better and have and create a better way of life, for their family members. You know, as my parents did come out of the depression, one of

David Novak 1:03:54 

the things I always do in my podcast is I have a lightning round. And if you got just a minute or two, I'd like to ask you these lightning round questions real quick, and we'll wrap this thing up. Okay. Sure. All right. What's one word others would use the best describe you?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:04:10 

Yeah, integrity.

David Novak 1:04:12 

What would you say is the one word that best describes you? Integrity? Who would play you in a movie?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:04:18 

Walter Matthau.

David Novak 1:04:20 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself? Who would it be?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:04:24 

Rogers taba?

David Novak 1:04:26 

What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you never miss Cheerios for breakfast. Something you wish you learned earlier in your life?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:04:35 

I wish I understood the value of diversity of opinions and of people.

David Novak 1:04:44 

If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Rock and roll? What's something about you? A few people would know.

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:04:53 

I'm a great jitter bugger.

David Novak 1:04:54 

All right, there you go. Okay, fantastic. And I've been swamped. So with this entire conversation, and I've been particularly impressed by the partnership that you you have with your wife, Deborah, who you've been married to, for over 50 years, 52 years, I think, you know, how do you lead in a marriage to make it work? Well,

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:05:16 

it's really been, I mean, there's no chance I would have been anywhere close to, as successful as I had been, or been in the positions, been privileged to serve as I have been able to without her. I mean, it's not even close. And we met, you know, we're in our early 20s, I was 23, she was 22, when we got married, you know, every young 20 Something thinks they know a lot. And in retrospect, you know, we didn't know that much. But we fell in love. And we're blessed with two great kids and surrounded by great families, I think we moved 23 times, you know, I was gone a lot. So I've got two great sons. And believe me, she's the one that impacted them more than anyone else. And it is that family a piece, which is why we feel so strongly about families, military families. And when I came in the military in the late 60s, I don't know what the number was. But what I was told was, it was like 4%, of the Navy was married. Each of the servers when I left in 2011, were about 50%. Those who were married, the context of families have changed in terms of significant others and partnerships. But you can't do it, nobody can do it without their family. And so that's why we emphasize that. So importantly, but she really is my true north star in the values piece more than anybody else. And it's been that I think the love and the bonding that's associated with that, that's allowed us to really be privileged in the life that we've led. And we've got, again, two great sons, they've got two great spouses. And we've got six great grandkids that keep us occupied quite a bit right now. And we've been very blessed in that regard.

David Novak 1:07:08 

That's great. Admiral, what's your unfinished business?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:07:11 

Well, I still want to, I still want to contribute as much as I can to the things that I know a little bit about, I mean, the situation internationally right now is, is hugely challenging. And so I spend some time on that I, I am increasingly concerned about the health of our own democracy, I've tried to study that in ways that I didn't think I'd have to before to understand what brings us together. So I speak to that as often as I possibly can publicly and that we need to come together and stop ripping each other out in this divisive environment. My wife and I are involved in veterans issues, we essentially took the focus that we had on military members and families, to veterans and family. So we're both involved in 501, C, threes that focus on that not a ton of them, but a few of them, because that space is so critical. And there's there are huge challenges associated with that. And I don't know that that's going to get finished to quite frankly, but Deb and I agreed that we would engage in that space until we can't. So I'm sure that will remain unfinished, even when we get to the point where we can't, but we're gonna do as much as we can, you know, in that regard with the time we have left,

David Novak 1:08:23 

last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give someone who wants to be a better leader?

Admiral Mike Mullen 1:08:29 

Yeah, back to this course that I teach. I mean, it's, I taught at Princeton for six years, I'm now in my fifth year at the Naval Academy. And I base the course on, you know, it's a pretty confused world, you know, how do I make decisions? How do I live my life? On? What are your values? What are your principles? What do you believe in, and to really think that through, and then to use that what I do in the course, is have the students construct a framework through which in which around which they can then lead their lives, make decisions, look themselves in the mirror in the morning to make sure that they can continue to do that with a straight face? And I think more than anything else, that's what I would tell leaders today and then stick to those and then have somebody call you on it. Have somebody that would speak truth to power say, well, that that isn't very consistent with who we thought you were, or who you said you'd be. I'm also fond of saying I have forever in when not forever, but you know, in the last 20 plus years, everybody's a leader, you got to be a good follower before. You're a good leader. But everybody's a leader and followers can lead as well. We're desperately in need of great leaders right now to bring us together and continue to, to evolve. You know, from the great country we have been for, you know, two and a half centuries into the great country we can be for the next two and a half centuries.

David Novak 1:09:58 

And roll your are great American. And I thank you so much. You know, we we both want to make the world a better place by developing better leaders and you've got so much advice and insight that you've you've provided in, in this time, and you've been so gracious with your time. This has been great. Yeah, thanks, I really appreciate it.

Boy, I'm so grateful for leaders like Mike, who demonstrate how the heart of leadership really is service to others. I appreciate him and all the men and women in our armed forces and their families who serve and sacrifice on behalf of our country. We need more leaders like Admiral Mullen, which is why I'm so glad you took the time to learn from him today. And one of the key takeaways from this conversation that I want to point out is the importance of being willing to speak the truth to those in charge. Admiral Mullen talks about that moment before walking into the Oval Office, where Tinkerbell hits you with some magic power, that makes it really tough to tell the most powerful person in the world what he got wrong. Now, your boss probably doesn't work in the Oval Office. But no matter what it takes courage to disagree with the person in charge, or speak up about the things that aren't working. But if people can't give honest feedback to the people that they work for, then it's just a disaster waiting to happen. Problems will go unchecked. And guess what, they're the kinds of problems that always get worse. Now, if you're a regular listener of this podcast, you know, this is the point in the show where I pause and offer a simple way you can apply this concept in your own world and become a better leader. This week, I want you to take a good hard look at the people in your life who you count as truth tellers. Take a moment to recognize them for a situation where they helped you course correct. And look, if you have a hard time coming up with anyone, then I'll just be the truth teller for you and say that it's time to make that your priority. So do you want to know how leaders lead? Well, we learned today is the great leaders are willing to speak and hear the truth. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Walter driver, co founder and CEO of Scopely, which is the number one mobile video game company in the United States.

Walter Driver 1:12:31 

And we started saying relatively early on in the company lifecycle that we weren't trying to build a company we're trying to build a learning machine. And that feeling that if we could learn faster than any other company in our industry, that ultimately we would come out ahead over time because that knowledge would compound and if we were just learning, you know, 3% faster than anybody else, we would end up in an amazing place.

David Novak 1:12:50 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be