Welcome to How Leaders Lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, the Super Bowl is this Sunday and I think it's going to be a heck of a matchup between the Chiefs and 49ers. And as we're all looking forward to the big game, I can't think of a better person to talk to than my guest today. He is a four-time Super Bowl champ, an NFL Hall of Famer, and the MVP of the 1976 Super Bowl. It's the one and only, Lynn Swan. Now after a standout career in the NFL, Lynn has gone on to do even more incredible things in broadcasting, business, and more. I mean, this guy has led in pretty much every sector you can lead in. And he demonstrates a superpower I see in a lot of great leaders. And it's this, he is actively listening to and learning from everyone in his life. When you have that kind of outlook as a leader, everything changes. And if you want to develop it for yourself, well, you're in the right place. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Lynn Swan. When this episode airs, this year's Super Bowl will be upon us. And you have four Super Bowl rings. I'm curious. Where do you keep them? I keep them in a box and in a drawer. Every once in a while, I will bring them out for some event, some occasion. They don't actually know who I am. I bring out the Super Bowl rings. Yeah, you ever put off four of them on them once? I usually do that on the kids. I let them put the rings on and they hold them up and they put their hands on their chest like they're going to do the Pledge of Allegiance. And their mom or dad take a picture and they've got that shot of wearing four Super Bowl rings on their hand and something that they remember. Matter of fact, I did that one time and where I live in Georgia, there's a pretty good golf course nearby and some folks are staying at the Rich Carlton and this family came out and said, "Hey, Mr. Swan, I want to stop you." You let my son take a picture with your four Super Bowl rings on a putting ring . And he never forgot that. And those rings and golf have now become a mainstay of his life. That's a fantastic story. You know, what's something about playing in a Super Bowl? You only know if you played in one. The confidence, the hope, all of the emotions that you run through when you get ready for a Super Bowl and the little things that kind of impact what you do and why you do or play the game the way you play the game. Just little things that other people don't think of in terms of that motivate you or that you might have a sense of fear, that sense of failure. You don't want to let anyone down. You don't want to drop the ball. You don't want to run the wrong route. You want to do the right thing. So it's that fear of making a mistake sometimes it drives you. You're the youngest of three boys and in your NFL Hall of Fame speech, which was excellent, by the way, you say your mother named you Lynn because she wanted a girl. Now, is that true or are you just trying to get a laugh from the crowd? A little bit of a ball. It usually gets a laugh, but I'm the youngest of three boys and my mother did want a daughter. So she had girls names apparently in her head and then someone at the hospital said to my mom, Mrs. Swan, where you don't, all three of your children have been delivered by the same doctor. And his name is Dr. Lynn F. Curtis. He goes, you can name your last child after him. So she named me Lynn Curtis Swan. I love it. What's the story from your childhood, Lynn, that shaped the kind of leader you are today? One is that when I first went out for Pop One in football and I wasn't the biggest kid there, mom and dad said, no, you're going to get hurt. So I snuck out of the house and I caught the bus and went from Sam and Tail down up towards San Francisco. And I went to the tryouts and I got a uniform. I made the team. And so I came home with the uniform and my mom looked at me and said, okay, you went against our wishes, you wouldn't join the team. All right, fine. Go ahead. You're going to be on the team. But you can't quit. You joined. You stick it out. And there were some times it hurt. But the commitment was I couldn't quit. And that was it. So I don't quit. You know, when you get after something, you make a commitment to do something. And so you go after it to make it happen. Something else you talked about in your hall of fame speech was that you actually weren't a very good football player at first, which is really hard to believe. But what did you do to develop your skill to such an elite level? I mean, if you had to sum it up. I changed positions. I went from hitting people on defense to casting passes on offense. Well, that'll do it. And then you not only won four Super Bowls, you also won a national championship in 1972 at the University of Southern Cal and you were undefeated. And you've been on such incredible teams. What's the consistent quality you see in the best teams you've been a part of? I think the consistent quality that I see and the teams that I've been a part of has been the coaching staff, the team concept, and everyone working for the benefit of everyone else. When did you believe that you had it in you to become a professional football player? When I got drafted. It's interesting David. No one thought I'd be a very good football player as a kid growing up. I took 14 years of dance lessons when I was from the fourth grade to graduate from high school. I got a scholarship to an all boys Catholic high school. I'm Baptist. My mom made me go. I got a scholarship to USC. That wasn't enough. But then playing at USC, I got a chance to play at wide receiver and start as a sophomore. It worked out well. And someone said, "Well, I think you're going to get drafted." Well, I wasn't quite sure if that was the case. But I said, "Okay, let's see what happens." I get drafted in the first round. So I'm always in a waiting position. I'm waiting to see if what I've done is enough to get verification then to move on. And so all of those things occurred. So you're selected in the first round of the 1974 National Football League Draft, which is a great game. So you didn't have to wait too long to get that verification. And that year, your draft class is considered to be one of the best in NFL history. I like to think of it as being the best. Well, I think you're right. Remind us of who some of those players were. Well, myself being number one, Jack Lambert, Paula Famer, who was in the second round, John Stallward was in that class. Donnie Shell was in that class. I'm missing someone. Mike Webster, the center from Wisconsin, was in that class. And Mike Webster is not a big, tall guy, but he was awfully strong in a weight room 24/7. Unbelievable player. Sad the way we lost him, the way you lose anybody in terms of the things that were going on in his personal life. But tremendous asset, gritty guy. And he started in his first year and never, you know, his second year, really. And never looked back. We were roommates my first year in Pittsburgh. And so we had a little bit of fun together with Mike Webster, but very different attitude coming from Wisconsin versus California. You're around all this talent. How did you guys elevate each other's performance? Because, you know, you look around and you see people who are working hard, who are studying hard, doing things the right way, and very, very competitive. And so you need to keep up. I mean, just to hold your position, you've got to accelerate what you're doing. And you have to keep doing it. You know, John Starworth was the fourth round of a pit from Alabama A&M, playing wide receiver on the other side of the field. A rookie year, we come in on the second and the fourth quarter of games. You know, I saw John every day practice. I knew John was a very talented guy. So John's driving me. I'm driving John. We see Jack Lambert out there and no linebacker starting as a rookie on a team that's been in the playoffs two years in a row. So you drive each other. You push each other. And then you listen to people like Joe Green or Franco Harris, you know, Mel Bl unt, Dwight White. And you've been a team for a long time who understand how difficult it is to win at that level and how badly they want it. And you just want to add a little something to get us there. What you pick up on leadership from the legendary coach Chuck Knoll. I say number one, his preparation was his greatest asset. I will also say that, you know, his ability to select the right talent and put these people with talent together with their personalities, get them all on the same page. So he was a unifying coach, you know, to that degree. But there was not a game that we went into that we weren't well prepared and practiced for that situation. Even the difficult moments were practiced and ready for that. So I think that was it. And the second great quality for Chuck was that he could hear you when you offered a suggestion, whether it was in the meeting room or on the sideline of the game. Case and point, my rookie year, we're playing Oakland in Oakland to go to the Super Bowl. And I'm on the sideline. John Stallworth and I are out of the game at the fourth quarter. We're playing, but we're minutes to go in the game. We have the ball in the four yard line and it's first down. Chuck pulls us out, but Franko too tight in. We're going to run the ball. That's what the Steelers did. Well, ran to plays and we got zero yards. So a third down, four yards to go for a touchdown. And I'm on the sideline. From the moment I got to the sideline, I told Chuck, I've got to play. And he just said, you know, nothing. No yards. Chuck, I got to play. I got to play. No yards. Then he said, after we didn't get any yards on the second attempt, he didn't even ask him what the play was. He says, go ahead, go in and call him. So grab John. We go back into the huddle, tell Terry the play. It's not like the play is always to me, but what the heck, why not? And so we called the pass play. It was a sweat pattern. Ran it, Terry threw it, caught it. We go ahead. We go back to the ballgame and we get to our Super Bowl, first Super Bowl and the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers against Minnesota Vikings. But that was only because a rookie wide receiver on a team that wants to run the football told the coach he had a play and Chuck. No, God bless him. Said, okay, run the play. You know, good leaders have to listen. Didn't even ask you what the play was. How'd that make you feel? Well, it made me feel like, like, Chuck trusted me. He ran what he thought were his best two plays. It didn't work. And I said, I've got something. And so he trusted the people around him to also add value to what we were trying to get done. And Chuck has always been that way. I mean, the assistant coaches were phenomenal in Pittsburgh. And he gave them the ability to coach individuals on their positions and so forth. And so, you know, we had great success. And I don't think you look around today, whether it's football, whether it's any business out there. Good leaders find better people to be on their team. People that could be the leader themselves, you know, someday they might, whether it's at that particular company or a different place or in a different team. And so you get them in that position where they feel confidence and they add value. They make you look good with a guy on a football team every time we walked onto the football field for the game. And the last thing he said to team was, make me look good. So every CEO who's out there, every leader who's out there, every manager wants to have a team that does what? Make them look good. I love it. You know, in your rookie season, you're playing in the AFC Championship game and you're not down. You're very malicious hit, you were just absolutely pounded and you were hospitalized for two days. And how have you learned, Len, to respond when things out of your control like that happened to you? Well, it means that situation in and of itself has taught me a lot. Certainly in the competitive environment of football, you don't always win. So you get hit, you get knocked down, somebody intercepts a pass. You know, they stop you from doing what you're trying to get done. So what do you do? You know, you go back to your film study, you watch practice film, you watch game film. You see what you did, right? You see what they did, right? And so competition, you know, in sports is always that adversarial role where you don't just get to go out and do what you want to do. And then someone tells you, well, great, you won. You sold enough product, your stock went up. That's all good. You know, somebody's out there trying to hit you, stop you from getting to the store, you know, getting on the shelf, you know, because they want their product here. You know, so you learn those kinds of things and how to deal with those things. You continue to move it on. And again, it's studying. You watch and learn from other people and you learn constantly for yourself and how to get better. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Lynn Swan in just a moment. But with the Super Bowl coming up, I've just got to play for you one of my favorite clips with the one and only Tom Brady. I'm pretty tough on myself. I don't make excuses. I don't blame others. But I want to find a solution criticizing without a solution is just essentially complaining. He may as well be a Monday morning quarterback at that point. The critique for me is all about the solution. If something doesn't work, it's why didn't it work? You know, and how do we get it to work? Not some BS reason why it wasn't successful. Let's get to the root of the problem. Let's solve it. And I think that's the best way to go about it. That's the kind of thinking that's helped Tom win a whopping seven Super Bowls. And if you want to develop an elite mindset, you've got to listen to this entire conversation with the goat. Episode 53 here on Howl Eaters Lead. I've heard you say what makes a career is the satisfaction of having performed in a big moment. Talk more about that. It's that trust again that your teammates having you and it's doing a job even if you're not scoring or you're not making a big play, but you're contributing to create an opportunity for your team to win and make the big play. So we've already talked about the AFC Championship game in Oakland, getting to our first Superbowl, we play the Vikings, we win. I call the play that gets us to the Super Bowl. How many passes did Chuck or the offense throw to me in that first Super Bowl? Super Bowl nine. Zero. I've got a single pass, not a play called to me in the entire game and I played the entire game. But what I did do was run my route, block the guys, all the things I needed to get done to help the team to kind of move it forward. So when the game's over and the owner of the team, Art Rooney Senior, is in the locker room, tears coming down his eyes and Pete Rosel handing him the Vince Lombardi trophy and Pittsburgh has climbed that mountain to win the very first Super Bowl in their long history. I felt as excited and as jubilant as anybody in the room because I'm a part of that team. We all contributed some way, somehow at practice, getting us there and making sure we won the ball game. And so when you're a part of that team, everything the team does, you feel like you had some part of it. You made some of the most acrobatic catches in the history of the NFL and I watched this clip in preparation for this podcast, Lynn, where you're on Mr. Rogers' neighborhood where you talked about your dance background and you mentioned a little bit earlier. Tell us about just the dance background itself and did that really impact your skill level in any way on a football field? Oh, I believe it did. Now, it's a hyper kid and my mom really and my dad didn't think I'd be a very good athlete. So my mom enrolled me in a dance class. And so I didn't really want to do it, but I'm in the dance class and I'm dancing and all of a sudden I'm enjoying it. It's tap dance and it's a little bit of jazz and the whole thing. So you have a recital every year and kind of that performance mode. I kind of like that being on the stage and performing and that kind of thing. So I guess dance is my thing because I can't sing worth a dance. My dad's got a really good voice, but I can't sing at all. So the dance background taught me balance, body control at the Boys and Girls Club that I attended now when I was a kid growing up. I used to get on the trampoline. I used to work on the trampoline. So all of that body control I think gave me a little more athleticism when it came to playing football. I could get up in the air, felt comfortable in the air and I had the body control to be in the air and still compartmentalize at the same time, physical. I'm curious, you're on the Mr. Rogers Show. Did you learn anything about leadership or a big lesson watching Fred in action , Mr. Rogers himself? The Fred Rogers Show, you know, the neighborhood was filmed in Pittsburgh and it's right next to Central Catholic High School where my two boys went to high school in Pennsylvania in Pittsburgh. But Fred was one of those guys that, again, if you just listen to Fred, even when you're having a conversation, this natural curiosity about things, he's always trying to glean what is it that you know that I don't know that we can both benefit from. And I can use later on and understand what it is that you do and why you do it that way. His ability to listen and put it into the words that young kids can understand is absolutely amazing. I mean, there are geniuses in the world who when they get up and talk, you go, what did they say? You need some interpretation. But the guy like Fred, he would listen, he'd say things and he'd just put it out there very succinctly. And so you could hold on to it for a long time. So you have this iconic football career and then you got to move on. You know, so at some point, walk me through the process you use to decide what to do after football. Well, the process of what to do after football started probably after my first season. And there are a number of opportunities for us to do things as a team and participate in things. And one of them was super teams, you know about superstars and then that concept of ABC sports and they developed a team concept that they put out there. And so the winners of the Super Bowl and the World Series teams that competed or competing in this team competition. And so I got a chance to see it broadcasters and working in sports, even though this was made for TV kind of sports. I thought, boy, this is something I think is a lot of fun and enjoyable. I like to do. I would actually like to do and work at. So I went back to school. I went to graduate courses in TV and radio production. I took a writing class and I took a speech class. And I just started working on it. In the broadcast class, we had the producer show, a 30 minute show. So I produced a 30 minute show. And then in the off season, instead of doing nothing except working out, I started working for KVCTV in Los Angeles to do interviews and broadcasts and things like that for the sports department. And so I kept doing those kinds of things. Then suddenly I'm doing a show for ABC network. We did win the Super Bowl after my third year. So someone from ABC asked, would you be a commentator on superstars and be a commentator and kind of talk to the guys and do this whole deal? And so I started doing that. So every off season, there are more and more projects. So I played football. In the off season, I go home. I work at the local station. I work for the network. Get a few things here. And that was offered a full time job at CBS. So it was all the ABC folks who had offered me an opportunity in the first place. And so I told them, look, I've got this opportunity at CBS. I'm thinking about taking it because it's kind of the entire off season having a full time job in the off season. And so ABC said, well, we'll give you a full time, part time job. We'll give you a full time job in the off season. Then you go back and play football and that kind of a deal with me. So I said, OK. And so that was it. That was the beginning. So when I got to the end of what I felt was the end of my career, I had already laid the foundation for moving on. And so there it is. I'm in broadcasting. And you moved into something that you loved and had passion for just like you did the football, which was fantastic. And so you spend 30 years in broadcasting. You have a distinguished career on that front. And communication is something that every leader can improve on and needs to get better and better at. What's the best practice that you could share after spending so much time in front of a microphone? To make sure you listen. We all feel and many people go like you have a lot to say sometimes. And a lot to offer in terms of your knowledge. But the reality is we need to constantly listen to be able to move forward. Things change so much. And if you're not listening, you're not listening to the young voices, if you 're not listening to the people who have been in your position before, people who have been in bigger positions that you've been in and gained some knowledge from them, you're not going to progress. Okay, you're not going to have the same kind of success and develop the same relationships. And so you need to constantly listen before you get out there. If you've done a good job at hiring people who are talented, who are smart in any position, in any job, if you're not listening to them, then why'd you hire them? It makes too much time sense. That's why you know, well, you know, you also got to cover the winter and summer Olympics, the Kentucky Derby. I got to tell you, it's an incredible list of events that you covered. And the one I really would like you to talk about, which is a great story, you tell, is the Aditarod Trail sled dog race. Oh, yeah. Share that story with us because it's really a good one. Everything at ABC and part of ABC's wide world of sports was actually an honor to do that. And all the great producers and directors who have traveled around the world, all the great athletes they covered, you know, and shall we say non-traditional sports, but you know, skiing and, you know, mountain climbing and all kinds of stuff. And the Aditarod sled dog race. So I got a chance to cover the race and I felt like it was a Jim McKay moment. Jim McKay was maybe the greatest broadcaster in ABC's sports history because he didn't just report on what was going on. He told you a story and he weaved personal information into what was going on to the competition and things like that. And he made you feel like you were right there in that space, in the scene, climbing the mountain, with the musherds behind the dogs, going down the frozen tundra in the river, the Yukon River. That was my chance and opportunity to kind of build that story. And so I pulled all the things I had done in the past. Now that I was a full time person in ABC and, you know, and trying to make that work and tell that story. So I wrote the script. I wrote everything that I said in the voiceover and tried to make them see the story of these people who were training, training the dogs and actually putting themselves in harm's way. And the entry, you know, the competitive factor, you know, the sportsmanship, the gamesmanship they had in nature's toughest environment. And to be able to tell that story and be a part of it was absolutely tremendous . And in a sense, David, I felt like I had arrived as an announcer. Now I'm the host of the Aditarot Sledong Race competition. I'm telling the story, I'm bringing it full force, you know, to the world to see. So I thought this was a great assignment saying that, hey, you're getting better. And then one of the producers, you know, executive producers said to me, he was , you know, why you got this assignment? And I kept waiting for him to tell me how good that was doing. He says, because we think you're one of the two gods we have on the contract who can do this assignment and survive. And then you go from broadcasting into politics. I like to get into the minds of how leaders make decisions. And you did make the decision. You're going to run for the governor of Pennsylvania as a Republican. How'd you make that decision? What was it that made you want to do that? Well, I actually thought I could help Pennsylvania be better and more foundationally in structure to help us progress to move forward. Lots of great attributes throughout the state of Pennsylvania in terms of resources and intelligent people and the academia at the University of Pittsburgh, Penn, Carnegie Mellon, great schools and great people doing wonderful things. John Hines, the late Senator John Hines was a personal friend. And I always thought he would have been a great president and would have been on track to be a president, had he not died so tragically. But I saw that I could help Pennsylvania at that particular moment. I was not looking for what you would call a career in politics. It wasn't like I was going to run for governor and then automatically run for a second term and then look for a seat in the Senate or even the White House at some point in time. It was I just felt like I could help Pennsylvania and bring Pennsylvania closer together, cut out the waste and do a variety of other things to help the academic structure of Pennsylvania in terms of the grade schools, et cetera. So I gave a shot and went after it. And good on you, you know, as they say in Australia, I mean, you jumped into the arena and unfortunately you lost. Is there anything different you do as a leader that maybe could have changed the outcome or how do you look back on that in terms of learning? You know, I look back on it and say, okay, in order for me to have won that number one, I would have had to have started earlier. Number two, I would have had to raise a ton more money. And I would have had to go, you know, really directly at and almost, you know, attack and challenge the incumbent governor, Ed Rendell, on his own turf and really take him on. It was like, I'm not certain the party, the Republican Party at that time in Pennsylvania felt comfortable doing that. And certainly being a, a, me to fight in the political world, I'm not sure they felt I was confident enough or they were confident enough in me to be able to take on that kind of challenge more directly. But I think we did well. We just didn't win. Hey, everyone. It's Kula, co-host of three more questions and I have some exciting news to share with you. We just launched a breakthrough app that will help you become a better leader in less than two minutes a day. It's called how leaders lead. As you know, on the podcast, David spends about an hour each week interviewing some of the top leaders in the world, people like Tom Brady, Condolee is a rice and Jamie Diamond. But we know that leaders like yourself are pressed for time. So we've taken the very best clips from these conversations and put them into an easy to use mobile app that you can learn from in less than two minutes a day. If you want to become a better leader, start a daily leadership habit with the How Leaders Lead app. It's available now for free and the app store. Download it today. 10 years later, you're hired at the University of Southern California as the athletic director. And what you do to get up to speed to do a job like that? The interesting thing is that I've spent 30 years in broadcasting talking to athletic directors, talking to the head coaches, talking to people around the program for a lot of years. So there's a lot of information I already had. It was my alma mater. So I knew a lot of people around the university, you know, on the board of trustees and people who are donors and been around the athletic department for quite a long time. The rest of it was kind of building that team, looking to see what needed to be done, how we pulled these things together. And then it was trying to make decisions where you could make decisions. Because while I'm leaving an athletic department, I still have multiple bosses outside the athletic department. You've got the chairman of the board, you've got the president of the university, you know, on their administration. You're trying to fill your way through all of these things. It was, for me, a tremendous experience, which I was in some ways had been there longer to affect the changes I wanted to make at the university at that particular time period. It didn't come to pass. Number of things happened. Things out of my control. And so they decided, you know, after the university president left who hired me , that they wanted to make some other changes. And that was a part of the change. Going back to USC as the athletic director, where you, you know, went to school , that had to be a thrill, I'm sure. And what would be your favorite story from your time serving as athletic director? My favorite story might be the fact that, you know, when we got there, we already had a football coach, Clay Helton, a head football coach. And so we're not going to make a change in June when I got hired. And so getting to know him kind of moved things forward. And as a leader, you also have to be supportive of people you now have to work with who have the authority to manage their department, their profit units, their part of the business. And we had a tough beginning. You know, we played Alabama. We lost to Alabama. Now that Texas Stadium, we had a couple of tough games during the season. Didn't quite come through. But then we kind of picked it up. We didn't win the PAC 10 championship, PAC 10 at that time. But we were the second best team. And they had the playoffs going. And so I think it was Washington that was going to the playoffs. So we ended up playing Penn State in the Rose Bowl. Just like we were of the PAC 12 champions or PAC 10 champions. And put together a phenomenal game. We win that game. Fans are excited. Everything is looking up. So for me, that was a great moment. Being there to support those people who were on the front line trying to make it happen. And seeing that kind of success and what it did for all those young men who are out there playing at that particular time. You know, as athletic director, you have to make the decisions on who the coaches are going to be. And you know, you've talked about the importance of talent management. How do you go about just deciding who's in and who's out? For me, it was a matter of performance. You're looking to see if like they're developing the talent behind them. You know, as the boards I sit on, you know, and it's on the board of Apollo Global Management. And they've got multiple companies under that umbrella. And you're always looking for someone who can be that leader. And any CEO should be looking to replace him or herself at some point in time so that the business continues to move forward and productively and proftively and having longer life span than your individual life in terms of business. And it's the same thing in sports. Coaches need to hire people who will become head coaches themselves and kind of build that kind of internal group of talent. So I was busy getting to know all the head coaches and their staff and everybody else, trying to help them kind of move forward where they were. And so we asked, we made some changes here and there where we had to make changes or changes where, you know, we didn't have to make changes but felt that we should make changes. And so you run that process. You hate to lose good people. The idea that you have to terminate someone. It's not pleasant thought. But the idea that when you terminate someone is that you try and help them find a place that's better for them in terms of where they might fit and where they might go beyond that. Because they have been there at the school. They've offered their services and time and their treasures to help these young people grow and be better people and compete and get that degree. And so we thank them for that. But you know, maybe you just have to move on. And you know, you mentioned you were on the board of Apollo Group and mentioned earlier, you've been on Heinz, Hershey, Windham. As a director and being a part of these great companies, if you had to boil it down to one thing, what does this experience really taught you, Lynn, in terms of the board service that you've had? That you never stopped learning, you know, board education. You know, you think about the fact that, you know, the first board I was on was have been Windham and I'm on that board and then after that came Heinz, you know, American homes for rent. We have over 50,000 homes across the U.S. that we just rent, build and rent. And as we said, Apollo, there's some terrific people out there who are working hard. But from 1997, you know, to today, look at all the things that have changed. In 1997, we weren't talking about artificial intelligence. Okay. We were barely talking. We were still talking about Microsoft. Okay. And then how much is Microsoft reinvented itself, you know, in that process from that time period? So everything changes. So you constantly have to stay on top of it. You constantly have to grow. You constantly have to read up on material and put yourself in other positions to learn more, to be able to add value to the board. And then sometimes you need to bring it back. You need to bring it back and say, okay, look, what are we here for? We're here to help these men and women develop to grow, to make the decisions to run the company. Directors do not run the company. Directors are advisors to the executive team that's running the day to day operation of the business. We're there to give them the insight, clean, whatever we can, the straw from all of our experiences and what we're learning, to give them things to think about in terms of making final decisions moving forward, developing and shaping that philosophy, trying to help them look down the road. But at the end of the day, you know, there's going to be a CEO who's got to be responsible or chairman of that company for those day to day decisions. So we want to give him that input and make sure we're getting our input as wide a field as we can that makes sense for that leadership team. Well put, you know, and this has been so much fun and I want to have some more with the lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? The lightning round. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. What's one word others would use to best describe you? Graceful. What would you say is the one word that best describes you? A best friend. Who would play you in a movie? I'd say Denzel Washington because of the strength of character of some of the roles that he plays. Um, but there would probably have to be someone a little more, a little more athletic. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Bill Gates. The most iconic athlete to come out of your high school. Well, excluding myself Tom Brady. What's one word to describe these players? Terry Bradshaw. Determined. Franco Harris. Bonful. Mean Joe Green. Oh, uh, scary. Stealer fans. The best. Who has the best looking uniforms in the NFL? The team that wins the Super Bowl. The best receiver in today's game. That's tough. I can't name one because the game has changed so dramatically. There are a lot of good receivers or great receivers. Paid equally. Would you rather have been a long jump track star, which you were in high school or a football player? Bowl. It can't make the choice. Speaking of jumping, when was the last time you jumped over a car? The very first time you saw me jump over a car. Sitting in the end zone of the football game. Absolutely. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Oh, you hear R&B? And what's something about you a few people would know? There are a few things about me that many people, most people don't know. And we'll just keep it that way. That's the end of the lightning round. Well done. And just a couple more questions and I'll let you go. I found it interesting that you're in the midst of this really great broadcasting career. You get the call that you're going to go into the Hall of Fame of the National Football League. And I couldn't believe it, but when I looked at the record, it actually took 14 years for you to get that call. Did that bother you at all then? How do you think about that? I mean, well, yeah, it did. I mean, so you look at it and you think, OK, this is some ways it's a beauty contest, right? Because you've got to wait five years after you retire and things like that. The game changes. I mean, you know, they're now heralding the next great wide receiver in the NFL as someone who has caught this ungodly number of passes. Well, I mean, I was MVP of the Super Bowl and they only threw the ball too many five times. I caught four of them and for 160 yards and a touchdown. So my stats were never going to be that good. As years progressed, my stats seem to be lower and lower and lower and lower. And so I finally got to the point where I thought, no, I'm not going to get there. You know, I can't help that I play, you know, in the years where we didn't throw the ball that much, especially Pittsburgh. So that was going to be it. So yeah, I was disappointed and annoyed by it because I was in broadcasting. I covered the Super Bowl and they're going to make the announcement. I have people walk by me and say, oh, I just heard you didn't make the Hall of Fame. It was always trying to find a place to be where I wouldn't hear that. I wouldn't have to worry about it. But one day down in Florida, when I was with the guys at Wyndham Hotel and we were entertaining some clients, I got accepted. I hear the emotional when I think about it. You know, I remember what I said and someone says, you know, how does this feel like the 14 years to go into the Hall of Fame? I said, I kind of feel like Susan Lucci always nominated but never a winner. But today we both have won. I love it. You've done so much, Flynn. And with all that you've accomplished in your life and career, I know you're still doing a lot of exciting things. I'm curious, what's your unfinished business? Well, you know, if my wife would say, would be to write a book, you know, and that might be it. The unfinished business, I think, for any parent is making sure your kids are okay and they grow into adulthood as good people. So that's your always your unfinished business, if you will, being there, supporting them, even when they don't need your support, still to be there and cheer them on and lift them up if necessary. And so that will always be mine to turn to the family. You know, I've heard you speak so fondly of your wife. What role has she played in just your career progression and how you've taken on new things? That person who knows you best and young when they talk to you about things that necessarily you don't want to hear about, it comes from a good place and that you need to grow from that and that advice and that understanding and that's like facing a mirror you always need. I've always said that in order to be the very best you can be, you've got to kind of look at yourself in the mirror and say, all right, who are you? Who are you looking at when you come face to face with yourself? And my wife has always been very supportive, but she's always been that person who can tell me, all right, this is who you are, all right, this is what you have done, this is what you haven't done and you know, this is what you need to do. It helps that she's got a PhD in psychology and I've heard number one client, you have to pay someone for that. I just have to wake up to it. Last question, Lynn, what's the best piece of advice you can give to aspiring leaders? It's really listening and make sure you surround yourself with the right people so that when you're listening to them, it comes from a good place that they're talented enough to take your job and to lead so that you've created a roadmap for your succession so that, you know, the company you work for, the business that you're in continues to evolve and grow and to be real and to be honest, I mean, every day you go to bed at night, you 've made tough decisions, you know, these things, some of them are personal, some of them are not personal, but they have to be made and make the decisions for the right reasons and try and make the best decision you can. And again, listen, listen to these people, continue to grow. Don't be afraid to say, I don't know this, I need more understanding, I need more knowledge, you know, let me get it from you, let me find it somewhere, bring it back, let us all use it to get better. You know, Lynn, I always say that the best leaders have an uncanny combination of confidence and humility. You know, nobody's going to follow you unless you give them a sense, you know where you're going and you believe in yourself and the team, but they also have this humility that says, I don't know everything yet. You know, life's the journey, I need you to help me get there. And Lynn, you are one of those leaders and I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on this podcast with me. I've been bugging you for quite a while to get you on it, you know. Oh, listen, thank you. I appreciate it. Great opportunity just to sit and talk with you and, you know, share this information. It's a great platform you have to be able to kind of put things out there to talk to people and maybe someone out there is listening and in that podcast, they'll find one nugget that makes a difference. Well, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding lots of nuggets from the wisdom of Lynn Swan. But you know, one quality that really stands out to me is how he has surrounded himself with great people and he makes it a point to really listen to those people. To him, every person is a valuable source of insight and know-how. This week, try to see people the way Lynn does. As you go about your day, ask yourself what you can learn from the people you interact with, recognize them as a source of insight and know-how and really listen to them. Can you value what other people know and say it'll make you the kind of leader people really want to work for? So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders know how important it is to listen if you want to learn. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Alwyn Lewis, the former chairman and CEO of Popelli and the former CEO of Sears Holdings. You can't run away from results and the results are the currency you use to say I deserve to be promoted. I deserve that raise. I deserve to come back to work the next day. Without results, nothing's possible. So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]