David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, the Superbowl is this Sunday, and I think it's going to be a heck of a matchup between the chiefs and 40 Niners. And as we're all looking forward to the big game, I can't think of a better person to talk to than my guest today. He is a four time Super Bowl champ, an NFL Hall of Famer and the MVP of the 1976 Super Bowl. It's the one and only Lynn Swann. Now, after a standout career in the NFL, Lynn has gone on to do even more incredible things in broadcasting, business, and more. I mean, this guy is lead and pretty much every sector you can lead in. And he demonstrates a superpower I see in a lot of great leaders. And it's this he is actively listening to and learning from everyone in his life. When you have that kind of outlook as a leader, everything changes. And if you want to develop it for yourself, well, you're in the right place. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Lynn Swann.

When this episode airs, this year, Super Bowl will be upon us. And you have four Super Bowl rings. I'm curious, where do you keep them.

Lynn Swann 1:38 

I keep them in a box in a drawer. Every once in a while, I'll bring them out for some event and some occasion. Usually it's when kids are around. And they don't actually know who I am.

I bring out the Super Bowl rings.

David Novak 1:55 

You ever put all four of them on and what

Lynn Swann 1:58 

I usually do that on the kids, I let them put the rings on. And they hold them up and they put their hands on their chest like they're gonna do the Pledge of Allegiance. And their mom or dad take a picture. And they've got that shot of warring for Super Bowl rings on their hand and something that they remember map back I did that one time and, and where I live in Georgia, there's a pretty good golf course nearby. And some folks are staying at the Ritz Carlton. And this family came out and said, Hey, Mr. Swan, I want to stop you. You let my son take a picture with your four Super Bowl rings on the putting greens. And he never forgot that. And those rings and golf have now become a mainstay of his life.

David Novak 2:43 

That's fantastic story. You know, what's something about playing in a Super Bowl, you only know if you played in one,

Lynn Swann 2:49 

a confidence, the hope, all of the emotions that you run through, when you get ready for a Super Bowl, and the little things that kind of impact what you do. And while you do or play the game, the way you play the game. Just little things that other people don't think of in terms of that motivate you. Or that you might have a sense of fear, that sense of failure. You don't want to let anyone down. You don't want to drop the ball. You don't want to run the wrong route. You want to do the right thing. So it's that fear of making a mistake sometime to try catch.

David Novak 3:22 

You're the youngest of three boys and in your NFL Hall of Fame speech, which was excellent. By the way you say? Your mother named you Lynn because she wanted a girl now. Is that true? Or were you just trying to get a laugh from the crowd? A little bit of both.

Lynn Swann 3:38 

You usually get to laugh. But mom, I'm the youngest of three boys. And my mother did want a daughter. So she had girls names, apparently in her head. And then someone at the hospital said to my mom, Mrs. One where you don't all three of your children have been delivered by the same doctor. And his name is Dr. Lin F Curtis to go. You can name your last child after him. So she named me Lynn Curtis form.

David Novak 4:13 

Love it. You know, what's a story from your childhood land that shaped the kind of leader you are today.

Lynn Swann 4:18 

One is that when I first went out for Pop Warner Football, and that wasn't the biggest kid there, Mom and Dad said no, you're gonna get hurt. So I snuck out of the house. And I caught the bus and went from San Mateo down up toward San Francisco. And I you know, I went to the tryouts and, and I got the uniform. I made the team. And so I came home with the uniform and my mom looked at me and said, Okay, you win against our wishes. You wouldn't join the team. I fine. Go ahead. You're gonna be a team. But you can't quit. You joined you Stick it out. And there were some times it hurt. But the commitment was I couldn't quit. And that was it. So I don't quit. You know, you get after something, you make a commitment to do something. And so you go after it to make it happen. Something

David Novak 5:15 

else you talked about your Hall of Fame speech was that you actually weren't a very good football player at first, which is really hard to believe. But what did you do to develop your skill to such an elite level? I mean, if you had to sum it up, I changed

Lynn Swann 5:30 

positions. I went from hitting people on defense to casting passes on off.

David Novak 5:40 

That'll do it, you know. And Lynn, you you're not only one four Super Bowls, you also won a national championship in 1972 at the University of Southern Cal and, and you were undefeated. And you know, and you've been on such incredible teams? What's the consistent quality you see in the best teams? You've been a part of?

Lynn Swann 5:58 

I think the consistent qualities I see. And the teams that I've been a part of, has been a coaching staff, the team concept, and everyone's working for the benefit of everyone else.

David Novak 6:12 

When did you believe that you had it in you to become a professional football player?

Lynn Swann 6:17 

When I got drafted? You know, it's interesting, David, no one thought I'd be a very good football player as a kid growing up. I took 14 years of dance lessons. When I was from the fourth grade, I graduated from high school, I got a scholarship to an all boys Catholic High School, I'm Baptist. My mom made me go, you know, I got a scholarship to USC, that would have been enough. But then playing at USC, I got a chance to play at wide receiver and started as a sophomore, things worked out well. And someone said, Well, I think you're gonna get drafted. Well, wasn't quite sure if that was the case. But I said, Okay, let's see what happens. I get drafted in the first round. So I'm always in a waiting position. I'm waiting to see if what I've done is enough to get verification, then to move on. And so all of those things occurred.

David Novak 7:12 

So you're selected in the first round of the 1974, National Football League draft which, so you didn't have to wait too long to get that verification. And that year, your draft class is considered to be one of the best in NFL history. I like to think of it as being the best. Well, I think you're right, remind us of who some of those players were. Well,

Lynn Swann 7:32 

myself being number one, Jack Lambert. Hall of Famer was in second round. John Stallworth was in that class, Donnie shell was in that class, I missing someone. Mike Webster, the senator from Wisconsin, was in that class. And Mike Webster is not a big tall guy, but he was awfully strong in the weight room 24/7 unbelievable player, you know, sad the way we lost him, the way you lose anybody in terms of the things are going on in his personal life. But tremendous asset, gritty guy, and he started his first year and never know the second year really, and never look back. We were roommates, my first year in Pittsburgh. And so we had a little bit of fun together with Mike Webster, but very different attitude coming from Wisconsin versus California.

David Novak 8:27 

You're around all this talent. How did you guys elevate each other's performance?

Lynn Swann 8:32 

Because, you know, you look around and you see people who are working hard, core setting hard, doing things the right way, and very, very competitive. And so you need to keep up. I mean, just to hold, hold your position. You got to accelerate what you're doing. And you have to keep doing it. Y'all John Stallworth was a fourth round pick from Alabama a&m, playing wide receiver on the other side of the field. Our rookie year we come in on the second in the fourth quarter of games. You know, I saw John every day practice. I knew John was a very talented guy. So John's driving me I'm driving John, we see Jack Lambert out there and no linebacker starting as a rookie, on the team that's been in the playoffs, two years in a row. So you drive each other, you push each other. And then you listen to people like Joe Green, or Franco Harris. You know, Mel Blount, Dwight white people have been a team for a long time, who understand how difficult it is to win at that level, and how badly they want it. And you just want to add a little something to get us there.

David Novak 9:44 

Once you pick up on leadership from the legendary coach Chuck Noll. I think

Lynn Swann 9:49 

number one is preparation was is his greatest asset. I will also say that, you know his ability to select the right talent and put these people with talent together with a personalities, get them all on the same page. So he he was a unifying coach, you know, to that degree. But there was not a game that we went into that we weren't well prepared and practice for that situation. Even the difficult moments were practice and ready for that. So I think that was it. And the second great quality for Chuck, was that he could hear you when you offered a suggestion, whether it was in the meeting room, or on the sidelines of the game. Case in point, my rookie year, we're playing Oakland, in Oakland, and go to the Super Bowl. And I'm on the sideline, John Stallworth and I are out of the game. That's a fourth quarter we're playing but which minutes to go in the game. We have the ball in the four yard line. And it's first down, Chuck pulls us out. But Franco two tight ends, we're gonna run the ball. That's what's his deal with it. Well, ran two plays, and we got zero yards. So it's third down, four yards to go for a touchdown. And I'm on the sideline from the moment I got to the sideline. I told Chuck, I've got to play. And he just said, you know, nothing. No yards, Chuck, I got to play. I got to play. No yards. Then he said, laughter. We didn't get any yards on the second attempt. Getting a national with the play was, he says, I go ahead and go in and call it. Grab John, we go back into the huddle. Tell Terry the play. This now likes to play as always, to me, but what the heck, why not? We call the past play. We just went out and ran it. Terry through it caught it. We go ahead, we win the ballgame. And we get to our Super Bowl, first Super Bowl, and the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers against Minnesota Vikings. But that was only because a rookie wide receiver on the team that wants to run the football, told the coach he had a play. And Chuck No, God bless him, said okay, run the play. You know, good leaders have to listen,

David Novak 12:12 

didn't even ask you what the play was. How did that make you feel? Well,

Lynn Swann 12:17 

it made me feel like like Chuck trusted me. He ran what he thought were his best to plays. It didn't work. And I said I've got something. And so he trusted the people around him to also add value to what we were trying to get done. And Trump has always been that way. I mean, the assistant coaches were phenomenal in Pittsburgh. And he gave them the ability to coach individuals on on their positions and so forth. And, and so, you know, we had great success. And I don't think you look around today, whether it's football, whether it's any business out there, good leaders find better people to be on their team. People that could be the leader themselves, you know, someday they they might, whether it's at that particular company, or a different place, or in a different team. And so you get them in that position where they feel competence, and they add value, they make you look good. When the guy on a football team, every time we walked onto the football field for game, the last thing he said to the team was make me look good. So every CEO who's out there, every leader who's out there, every manager wants to have a team that does what make them look good. I love it.

David Novak 13:34 

You know, in your rookie season, you're playing in the AFC Championship game and you're knocked out it was a very malicious hit. You were just absolutely founded and you were hospitalized for two days. And how have you learned learn to respond when things out of your control like that happened to you? Well,

Lynn Swann 13:53 

I mean, that situation in and of itself has taught me a lot. Certainly in the competitive environment in football, you don't always win. So you get hit, you get knocked down, somebody intercepts a pass, you know, they stop you from doing what you're trying to get done. So whether you do you know, you go back, you film study, you watch practice film, you watch game film, you see what you did, right? You see what they did, right? And so competition, you know, in sports is always that adversarial role, where you don't just get to go out and do what you want to do. And then someone tells you, Well, great, you want your sold enough product, your stock went up, that's all good. You know, somebody's out there trying to hit you stop you from getting to the store, you know, get on the shelf, because they want their product here. You know, so you learn those kinds of things and how to deal with those things. You continue to move it on. Again, it's studying, you watch and learn from other people, and you learn constantly for yourself and how to get better

David Novak 15:04 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Lynn Swann in just a moment. But with the Super Bowl coming up, I've just got to play for you one of my favorite clips with the one and only Tom Brady. I'm

Tom Brady 15:16 

pretty tough on myself. I don't make excuses. I don't blame others. But I want to find a solution. Criticizing without a solution is is just essentially complaining, you may as well be a Monday morning quarterback at that point, the critique for me is all about the solution. If something doesn't work, it's why didn't it work? You know, and how do we get it to work? Not some BS reason why it wasn't successful, let's get to the root of the problem. Let's solve it. And I think that's the best way to go about it.

David Novak 15:48 

That's the kind of thinking that's helped Tom win a whopping seven Super Bowls. And if you want to develop an elite mindset, you've got to listen to this entire conversation with the goat, Episode 53 here on how leaders lead.

I've heard you say what makes a career is the satisfaction of having performed in a big moment. Talk more about that.

Lynn Swann 16:18 

It's that trust again, that your teammates have in you. And it's doing the job, even if you're not scoring or you're not making a big play. But you're contributing to create an opportunity for your team to win and make the big play. So we've already talked about the AFC Championship game in Oakland, getting to our first Super Bowl, we play the Vikings, we win. I call the play that gets us to the Super Bowl. How many passes did chuck or the offense throw the me in that first Super Bowl, Super Bowl Nine, zero, not a single pass, not a play called to me in the entire game. And I played the entire game. But what I did do was running my route, blocked the guys, all the things I needed to get done to help the team to kind of move it forward. So when the game's over, and the owner of the team aren't really seeing it, is in the locker room, tears coming down his eyes and Pete Roselle handing him the Vince Lombardi trophy. And Pittsburgh has climbed that mountain to win the very first Super Bowl in their long history. I felt as excited and as jubilant as anybody in the room. Because I'm a part of that team. We all contributed some way somehow, at practice getting us there and making sure we won the ball. And so when you're a part of that team, everything that team does, you feel like you have some part of them. You

David Novak 17:55 

made some of the most acrobatic catches in the history of the NFL. And I watched this clip in preparation for this podcast. Lynn, where you're on Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and where you talked about your dance background? And you mentioned a little bit earlier. Tell us about just the dance background itself? And did that really impact your skill level in any way on a football field?

Lynn Swann 18:17 

Oh, I believe it did. Cow is a heifer kid. And you know, my mom really and my dad didn't think I'd be a very good athlete. So my mom enrolled me in a dance class. And so I didn't really want to do it. But I'm in the dance class, and I'm dancing and all of a sudden I'm enjoying it. tap dance is a little bit of jazz and the whole thing. So you have a recital every year and it kind of that performance mode. I kind of liked that. Being on the stage and performing and that kind of thing. So I guess dance is my thing, because I can't sing what the damn. You know, my dad's got a really good voice, but I can't sing it all. So, you know, the dance background taught me balanced body control at the Boys and Girls Clubs that I attended. Now, when I was a kid growing up, I used to get on the trampoline. I used to work on the trampoline. So all of that body control I think gave me a little more athleticism when it came to playing football so I could get up in the air. I felt comfortable in the air and I had the body control to be in the air and still compartmentalize at the same time physically.

David Novak 19:27 

I'm curious, you're on the Mr. Rogers show. Did you learn anything about leadership are a big lesson watching Fred and action Mr. Rogers himself.

Lynn Swann 19:35 

The Fred Rogers show, you know, the neighborhood was filmed in Pittsburgh. And it's right next to Central Catholic high school where my two boys went to high school in Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh. But Fred was one of those guys that again, if you just listen to Fred, even when you're having a conversation, his natural curiosity about things he's always trying to glean I mean, what is it that you know that I don't know, that we can both benefit from. And then I can use later on and understand what it is that you do and why you do it that way, his ability to listen and put it into the words that young kids can understand, is absolutely amazing. I mean, there are geniuses in the world, who when they get up and talk, you go, what did they say? You need some interpretation. But the guy like Fred, he would listen, he say things, and he just put it out there very succinctly. And so you could hold on to it for a long time.

David Novak 20:38 

So you have this iconic football career, and then you got to move on, you know, so at some point, walk me through the process you use to decide what to do after football. Well,

Lynn Swann 20:50 

the process of what to do after football started, probably, after my first season, and there are a number of opportunities for us to do things as a team and be and participate in things and, and one of them was super teams, you know, about superstars, and then that concept of ABC Sports, and then develop a team concept that they put out there. And, and so the winners of the Super Bowl, and the World Series, teams that competed are competing in this team competition. And so I got a chance to see broadcasters and working in sports, even though this was made for TV kind of sports. I thought, boy, this is something I think there's a lot of fun and enjoyable I like to do, I would actually like to do and work. And so I went back to school, I went to graduate courses in TV and radio production. I took a writing class, and I took a speech class. And I just started working on it. In the broadcast class, we had the producer show a 30 minute show. So I produced a 30 minute show. And then in the offseason, instead of doing nothing except working out, I started working for KVC TV in Los Angeles, to do interviews and broadcasts and things like that, for the sports department. And so I kept doing those kinds of things. And suddenly I'm doing a show for ABC network. We didn't win the Superbowl in my third year. So someone from ABC asked, Would you be a commentator on superstars and be a commentator and kind of talk to the guys and do this whole deal. And so I started doing that. So every offseason, there are more and more projects. So I play football. In the offseason, I go home and work at the local station. I worked for the network, get a few things here. And that was offered a full time job at GDS. So it was all the ABC folks who had offered me an opportunity in the first place. And so I told them, Look, I've got this opportunity at CBS. I'm thinking about taking it because it's kind of the entire offseason, having a full time job in the offseason. And so ABC said, well, we'll give you a full time part time job. We'll give you a full time job in the offseason, then you go back and play football and that kind of a deal. So I said, Okay. And so that was it. That was the beginning. So when I got to the end of what I felt was the end of my career, I'd already laid the foundation for moving on. And so there it is, I'm in broadcasting,

David Novak 23:29 

and you moved into something that you loved and had passion for just like you did the did football, which was fantastic. And so you spent 30 years in broadcasting, you have a distinguished career on that front. And you know, communication is something that every leader can improve on and needs to get better and better at what's the best practice that you could share. After spending so much time in front of a microphone

Lynn Swann 23:51 

to make sure you listen. We all feel and many people feel like you have a lot to say sometimes and a lot to offer in terms of your knowledge. But the reality is, we need to constantly listen, to be able to move forward, things change so much. And if you're not listening, you're not listening to the young voices. If you're not listening to the people who have been in your position before, people who have been in bigger positions that you've been in and gain some knowledge from them, you're not going to progress, okay? You're not going to have the same kind of success and develop the same relationships. And so you need to constantly Listen, before you get up there. If you've done a good job at hiring people or talented or smart in any position in any job, if you're not listening to them, then why'd you hire

David Novak 24:49 

makes too much sense. You know, well, you know, you also got to cover the Winter and Summer Olympics, the Kentucky Derby. You know, I gotta tell you, it's an incredible list of events. that you covered. And the one I really would like you to talk about, which is a great story you tell is the the Iditarod trail, sled dog race. Oh, yeah, share that story with us because it's really a good one. Being

Lynn Swann 25:14 

at ABC and a part of ABC is Wide World of Sports was actually an honor to do that. And all the great producers and directors who have traveled around the world, all the great athlete take covered, you know, in in, shall we say, non traditional sports, but you know, skiing and, you know, mountain climbing and all kinds of stuff isn't the idea, the rod sled dog race. So I got a chance to cover the race. And I felt like it was a Jim McKay moment. Jim McKay was maybe the greatest broadcaster in ABC Sports history, because he didn't just report on what was going on. He told you a story. And he weaved personal information into what was going on to the competition and things like that. And he made you feel like you were right there, in that space in the scene climbing the mountain, with the mushers behind the dogs going down the frozen tundra and the river, the Yukon River, that was my chance, an opportunity to kind of build that story. And so I pulled all the things I had done in the past, now that I was a full time person and ABC, and you know, in trying to make that work and tell that story. So I wrote the script, I wrote everything that said, voiceovers and try to make them see the story of of these people who were training and training the dogs and and actually putting themselves in harm's way. And the entry. You know, the competitive factor, you know, the sportsmanship the gamesmanship they had in nature's toughest environment, and to be able to tell that story and be a part of it was absolutely tremendous. And in a sense, David, I felt like I had arrived as an announcer now I'm the host of the Diderot sled dog race competition. I'm telling the story. I'm bringing it full force to the world to see. So I thought this is a great assignment, saying that, hey, you're getting better. And then one of the producers, you know, executive producers said to me was Do you know why you got this assignment? And I kept waiting from the told me how good he says, because we think one of the few guys we have on the contract, who can do this assignment and survive.

David Novak 27:36 

And then you go from broadcasting into politics. I'd like to get into the minds of how leaders make decisions. And you did make the decision you're going to run for the governor of Pennsylvania as a Republican, how did you make that decision? What was it that made you want to do that? Well, I actually

Lynn Swann 27:54 

thought I could help Pennsylvania be better and more foundationally in structure to help us progress to move forward. Lots of great attributes throughout the state of Pennsylvania in terms of resources and, and intelligent people and the academia at the University of Pittsburgh and Penn, Carnegie Mellon, great schools, and great people doing wonderful things. John Heinz, the late Senator John Heinz was a personal friend. And I wish that he would have been a great president and would have been on track to be a president had he not died. So tragically, but I saw that can help Pennsylvania at that particular moment, I was not looking for what you would call a, a career in politics. It wasn't like I was going to run for governor and and then automatically run for a second term. And then, you know, look, look for a seat in the Senate or, or even the White House at some point in time. It was I just felt like I can help Pennsylvania and bring Pennsylvania kosher together, cut off the waist and do a variety of other things to help the academic structure of Pennsylvania in terms of the grade schools, etc. So I gave it a shot went after it.

David Novak 29:06 

And good on you, you know, as they say, in Australia, I mean, that's you jumped into the arena, and unfortunately you lost. Is there anything different you do as a leader that maybe could have changed the outcome? Or how do you look back on that in terms of learning? You

Lynn Swann 29:20 

know, I've looked back on it and say, okay, in order for me to have won that, number one, I would have had to start it earlier. Number two, I would have had to raise a ton more money. And I would have had to go, you know, really directly at and almost, you know, attack and challenge the incumbent governor Ed Rendell, on his own turf, and really take them on. It was like, I'm not certain the party, the Republican Party, at that time in Pennsylvania felt comfortable doing that. And certainly being a a neophyte in the political world, I'm not sure they felt I was confident enough or they were competent enough in me to be able to take on that kind of challenge more directly. But I think we did well, we just didn't win.

Koula Callahan 30:17 

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David Novak 31:11 

10 years later, you're hired at the University of Southern California as the athletic director, and what do you do to get up to speed to do a job like that?

Lynn Swann 31:20 

The interesting thing is that I spent 30 years in broadcasting, talking to athletic directors, talking to the head coaches talking to people around the program for a lot of years. So there's a lot of information I already had. It was my alma mater. So I knew a lot of people around the university, you know, on the board of trustees, and people who are donors and been around the athletic department for quite a long time, the rest of it was kind of building that team look and see what needed to be done, how we pull these things together. And then it was trying to make decisions where you could make decisions. Because while I'm leaving an athletic department, I still have multiple bosses, outside the athletic department, you've got the chairman of the board, you've got the President of University, you know, and their administration, you're trying to feel your way through all of these things. It was, for me, a tremendous experience, I wish I was, in some ways had been there longer to affect the changes I wanted to make at the University at that particular time period, it didn't come to pass a number of things happen, things out of my control. And so they decided, you know, after the University President left, who hired me that they wanted to make some other changes. And that was a part of

David Novak 32:38 

the change. Going back to USC as the athletic director, you were you went to school, that had to be a thrill, I'm sure, what would be your favorite story from your time serving as athletic director.

Lynn Swann 32:51 

My favorite story might be the fact that, you know, when we got there, we already have a football coach, Clay Helton, a head football coach. And so we're not going to make a change in June, when I got hired. And so getting to know him, kind of move things forward. And as a leader, you also have to be supportive of people have, you now have to work with who have the authority to manage their department, their profit unit, they're, they're parts of the business. And we had a tough beginning. You know, we played Alabama, we lost to Alabama. Now that Texas Stadium, we had a couple of tough games during the season, didn't quite come through, but then we kind of picked it up. We didn't win the PAC 10 Championship PAC 10 At that time, but we were the second best team. And they had the playoffs going and Joe, I think it was Washington that was going to the playoffs. So we ended up playing Penn State in the Rose Bowl. Just like we were the PAC 12 champions, or PAC 10 champions, and put together a phenomenal game. And we win that game. Fans are excited, everything is looking up. So for me that was a great moment, being there to support those people who were on the front line, trying to make it happen. And seeing that kind of success and what it did for all those young men who are out there playing at that particular time.

David Novak 34:15 

You know, as athletic director, you have to make the decisions on who the coaches are going to be. And, you know, you've talked about the importance of talent management, how do you go about just deciding who's in and who's out? For

Lynn Swann 34:28 

me, it was a matter of performance, you'll look and see if like they're developing the talent behind them, you know, as the boards I should on you know, and so on the board of Apollo Global Management, and they've got multiple companies under that umbrella. And you're always looking for someone who can be that leader in any CEO should be looking to replace him or herself at some point in time, so that the business continues to move forward and productively and profitably, and having a longer lifespan than your individual life in terms of business. And it's the same thing in sports. coaches need to hire people who will become head coaches themselves, and kind of build that kind of internal group of talent. So as I was busy getting to know all the head coaches, and the staff and everybody else, trying to help them kind of move forward and where they were. And so we asked, we made some changes here and there, where we had to make changes, or changes where, you know, we didn't have to make changes, but felt that we should make changes. And so you run that process, you hate to lose good people, that idea that you have to terminate someone, it's not a pleasant thought. But the idea that when you terminate someone is that you try and help them find a place that's better for them in terms of where they might fit, and where they might go beyond that, because they have been there at the school, they've offered their services and time their treasures, to help these young people grow and be better people and compete and get that degree. And so we thank them for that. But, you know, maybe you just have to move on.

David Novak 36:12 

And, you know, you mentioned you're on the board of Apollo group. And, you know, mentioned earlier, you've been on Heinz Hershey Wyndham, you know, as a director and being a part of these great companies, if you had to boil it down to one thing, what is this experience really taught you, Lynn, in terms of the board service that you've had,

Lynn Swann 36:31 

that you never stop learning, you know, Board education, you know, you think about the fact that, you know, the first board I was on would have been Windham and I'm on that board. And after that came Heinz, you know, American homes for rent, we have over 50,000 homes across the US that we just rent, the build in rent. And as we said, Apollo, there are some terrific people out there who are working hard, but from 1997. To today, look at all the things that have changed. And 1997, we weren't talking about artificial intelligence. Okay, we were barely talking, we were still talking about Microsoft. Okay. And then how much is Microsoft reinvented itself, you know, in that process from that time period, so everything changes. So you constantly have to stay on top of it. You constantly have to grow, you constantly have to read up on material, and put yourself in other positions, to learn more, to be able to add value to the board. And then sometimes you need to bring it back. You need to bring it back and say, okay, look, what are we here for? We're here to help these men and women develop, to grow, to make the decisions to run the company. Directors do not run the company. Directors are advisors to the executive team that's running the day to day operations of the business, whether the given the insight, glean whatever we can, the straw from all of our experiences, from what we're learning, to give them things to think about in terms of making final decisions moving forward, developing and shaping this philosophy, trying to help them look down the road. But at the end of the day, you know, there's going to be a CEO, who's got to be responsible or chairman of that company, for those day to day decisions. So we want to give him that input. And make sure we're getting our input as why the field as we can. That makes sense for the leadership team.

David Novak 38:38 

Well put, you know, and inland. This has been so much fun, and I want to have some more with a lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this?

Lynn Swann 38:46 

Lightning round? Oh, okay.

David Novak 38:47 

Yeah. Okay, here we go. What's one word others would use to best describe you?

Lynn Swann 38:52 

Graceful?

David Novak 38:54 

What would you say is the one word that best describes you?

Lynn Swann 38:57 

A best friend

David Novak 38:58 

who would play you in a movie?

Lynn Swann 39:00 

I'd say Denzel Washington because of the strength of character of some of the roles that he plays. But it would probably have to be someone a little more a little more athletic.

David Novak 39:14 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be?

Lynn Swann 39:19 

Bill Gates,

David Novak 39:20 

the most iconic athlete to come out of your high school? Well,

Lynn Swann 39:23 

excluding myself. Tom Brady.

David Novak 39:29 

What's one word to describe these players? Terry Bradshaw determined? Franco Harris.

Lynn Swann 39:36 

boastful,

David Novak 39:37 

Mean Joe Greene.

Lynn Swann 39:42 

Oh, ah. Scared.

David Novak 39:47 

Steeler fans.

Lynn Swann 39:48 

The best.

David Novak 39:51 

Who has the best looking uniforms in the NFL.

Lynn Swann 39:53 

The team that wins the Super Bowl,

David Novak 39:55 

the best receiver in today's game.

Lynn Swann 39:58 

That's tough. I can't name one, because the game has changed so dramatically. There are a lot of good receivers or great receivers

David Novak 40:07 

paid equally, would you rather have been a long jump track star, which you were in high school, or a football player? Both can't make the choice. Speaking of jumping, when was the last time you jumped over a car?

Lynn Swann 40:24 

The very first time you saw me jump over a car, sitting in the engine of the football game?

David Novak 40:30 

Absolutely. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? Oh,

Lynn Swann 40:36 

you heard r&d?

David Novak 40:37 

And what's something about you? Few people would know, there are

Lynn Swann 40:41 

a few things about me that many people most people don't know. And we'll just keep it that way.

David Novak 40:52 

That's the end of the lightning round. Well done. You know. And just a couple more questions. And I'll let you go. You know, I found it interesting that, you know, you're in the midst of this really great broadcasting career, and you get the call, that you're going to go into the Hall of Fame of a National Football League, and I couldn't believe it. But when I looked at the record, it actually took 14 years for you to get that call. I mean, did that bother you at all in? Or how did you think about that? I mean, well,

Lynn Swann 41:18 

yeah, it did. I mean, so you look at it, and you think, Okay, this is something in some ways, it's a beauty contest, right? Because you've got to wait five years after you retire and things like that. The game changes. I mean, you know, they're now heralding the next great wide receiver in the NFL, as someone who is caught this ungodly number of passes. Well, I mean, I was MVP of the Super Bowl. And they only threw the ball to me five times, I called for them, and for 160 yards and a touchdown. So my stats are never gonna be that good. As the years progressed, my stats seem to be lower and lower, and lower and lower. And so I finally got to the point where I thought now, I'm not going to get there. You know, I can't help that I play, you know, in the years where we didn't throw the ball that much, especially Pittsburgh. So that was going to be it. So yeah, I was disappointed and annoyed by it. Because I was in broadcasting, I cover the Superbowl, and they're going to make the announcement, I'd have people walk by me and say, Oh, I just heard you didn't make the Hall of Fame. It was always trying to find a place to be where I wouldn't hear that. wouldn't have to worry about it. But one day down in Florida. When I was with the guys at Wyndham hotel, and we're entertaining some clients, I got to accept it. I get emotional when I think about, you know, I and I remember what I said. And someone says, you know, how's it feel after 14 years to go into the Hall of Fame? I said, I kind of feel like Susan Lucci, always dominate, it was never a winner. But today, we both have won.

David Novak 43:06 

I love it. You've done so much when in with all that you've accomplished in your life and career? I know, you're still doing a lot of exciting things. I'm curious, what's your unfinished business? Well,

Lynn Swann 43:19 

you know, if my wife would say, would be to write a book. Now, and that might be it. The unfinished business, I think, for any parent, is making sure your kids are okay. And they grow into adulthood as, as good people. So that's your always your unfinished business, if you will, being there supporting them, even when they don't need your support, still to be there, and cheer them on and, and lift them up, if necessary. And so that will always be my turn to the family. You know, I've

David Novak 43:52 

heard you speak so fondly of your wife, what role has she played in just your career progression and how you've taken on new things. That

Lynn Swann 44:01 

person who knows you best and young, when they talk to you about things that necessarily you don't want to hear about. It comes from a good place, and that you need to grow from that. And that advice and that understanding, and that's like facing a mirror, you always need. I've always said that, in order to be the very best you can be. You've got to kind of look at yourself in the mirror and say, Alright, who are you? Who are you looking at when you're coming face to face with yourself? And my wife has always been very supportive. But she's always been that person who can tell me this, this is who you are. This is what you have done. This is what you haven't done. And you know, this is what you need to do. It helps that she's got a PhD in psychology, and I've heard number one client, you have to pay someone for that. I just have to wake up to it.

David Novak 44:57 

Last question, Lynn. What's the best piece advice you can give to aspiring leaders. It's

Lynn Swann 45:03 

really listen. And make sure you surround yourself with the right people. So that when you're listening to them, it comes from a good place, that they're talented enough to take your job, and to lead so that you created a roadmap for your succession. So that you know the company you work for the business that you're in, continues to evolve and grow. And to be real. And to be honest, I mean, every day you go to bed at night, you made tough decisions, you know, these things. Some of them are personal, some of them are not personal. But they have to be made, and make the decisions for the right reasons and try and make the best decision you can. And again, listen, listen to these people continue to grow. Don't be afraid to say, I don't know this, I need more understanding, I need more knowledge. You know, let me get it from you. Let me find it somewhere, bring it back. Let us all use it to get better.

David Novak 46:01 

You know, Lin, I always say that the best leaders have an uncanny combination of confidence and humility, you know, nobody's going to follow you unless you give them a sense, you know, where you're going. And you've you believe in yourself and the team. But they also have this humility that says, I don't know everything yet. You know, life's a journey, I need you to help me get there. And, Lynn, you are one of those leaders. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on this podcast with me. I've been bugging you for quite a while to get you on it. You know, listen,

Lynn Swann 46:38 

thank you. I appreciate it. Great opportunity just to sit and talk with you and, you know, share this information. It's a great platform, you have to be able to kind of put things out there to talk to people and and maybe someone out there is listening and that podcast, they'll find one nugget that makes a difference.

David Novak 47:10 

Well, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding lots of nuggets from the wisdom of Lynn Swann. But you know, one quality that really stands out to me is how he has surrounded himself with great people. And he makes it a point to really listen to those people. To him. Every person is a valuable source of insight and know how this week, try to see people the way Lynn does. As you go about your day. Ask yourself what you can learn from the people you interact with. recognize them as a source of insight and know how and really listen to him. When you value what other people know and say, it'll make you the kind of leader people really want to work for. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders know how important it is to listen if you want to learn. Coming up next on how leaders lead is all when Louis, the former chairman and CEO of potbelly and the former CEO of Sears Holdings.

Speaker 1 48:06 

You can't run away from results. And the results are the currency you use to say I deserve to be promoted. I deserve that raise. I deserve to come back to work the next day. Without results. Nothing's possible.

David Novak 48:21 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be