Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, I don't know about you, but I absolutely love March Madness. I've got my bracket all figured out and I can't wait to see what great moments this year's NCAA tournament is going to deliver. And I guarantee you it's going to get us all excited because it does every year . And with this year's tournament underway, it's the perfect time to talk with Jay Billis. He's now standing basketball analyst for ESPN. I mean, this guy knows the game inside and out and is the top of his field. And he has a way with words that really draws you into the game. He's a master of his craft because he truly honors the work he does and the work of those around him. And as you'll hear today, he is a thoughtful person with opinions that matter. He's deliberate about his work and his words. He has stuck to the substance of the job rather than the flash of it. And I think he sets a tremendous example for all of us to follow. So come for the leadership wisdom and stay for all the incredible stories that Jay tells. And who knows, you might just pick up a tip or two to help you win that office bracket pool next year. Here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Jay Billis. Hey, you know, Jay, I follow you on Twitter at every morning on Twitter at about 6 AM. You post something like this. They all in the dark, baby, I just shine. I do it from the heart, homie. They just rhyme. I got to go to work or check your watch. It's my time. My mind is made up. I'm on my grind. I got to go to work. Now, is this what you do every morning to pump yourself up for the day? What's this all about? A little bit, David. I'm a music fan and among the things I listened to are rap and hip hop. And it started when I was in high school back in the late 70s. I listened to a band called the Sugar Hill Gang. Years ago, when we were on location for college game day, Draymond Green, who's now, he was at Michigan State at the time, but he's now with the Golden State Warriors. He was wearing a pair of headphones during warmups and we asked him what he was listening to. And he mentioned a rap artist called Young Jeezy. One of my colleagues asked me if I listened to that and I said that I did. And it was on the air. And over social media, some fans didn't really believe I listened to it. So when I was going back and forth with them, I put a couple of lyrics out and if I remember right, and it's a little bit of a myth now, but when I'd had enough, I said I got to go to work, which was true. I had to get into my law office at the time and somehow it caught on and I do it every morning. And it's been a fun thing for me, but it gives me way more street cred than I deserve. Well, you do a great job with it. And by the time this airs, Jay, March Madness will officially be underway. So I got to ask you about your bracket. At this point, you know, who's in your final four and who do you have winning at all? I think the four best teams that I've seen are Purdue, Alabama, Houston, and I would put UCLA in there right now. But this isn't a year where there's a prohibitive favorite for the championship or a couple of teams like we've had in the past where we thought if these teams don't make the final four, it'll be a shock. I think if the top four or five teams were there at the end, all of them, that would be a shock. There's been only one time since the tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985 that all four number one seeds made the final four and that was 2008. And I just don't see it happening this year. I think we need to buckle our seat belts for a very rocky ride because there's a, you know, I've never been a fan of the word parody because it's always many quality to me and there's not equality in basketball, but the best teams are not so good that they can't be beaten in the second round or the sweet 16. I think we could see a lot of volatility this year. You know, every year, ESPN does this huge feature on your bracket. Walk me through the process of how you make your selections. On selection Sunday, we see the bracket for the first time. It's revealed by CBS and we get it right afterwards. And because of the nature of our selection show, our bosses, our producers say, hey, we need your picks right away. So I make picks in those games in a grand total of about five minutes. Wow. And sometimes that's actually the best way to do it because you don't overthink it. You know, I spend my life now, my professional life just analyzing basketball teams. I watch more games than I can possibly imagine. I don't even like thinking about it because it's so much time invested in it. Doesn't mean you're going to be right. Nobody can predict these things, but it gives you at least an idea of what to look for and what's important. And then after that, I tried to give it some more thought and I look at what time is this game being played? Where is it? You know, a game at noon in the NCAA tournament is a lot different than a game at seven o'clock or nine o'clock. And where the game is, things like that, look at a fan support, they'll be, is it more of a home court or a neutral court? They're all neutral courts, but some are more home courts than others. And you give it your best shot. That's all you can really do. But when you start projecting beyond the first round, you know, you don't know whether your picks are going to win. So sometimes there's strategy involved with if you're going to pick an upset, you want to make sure that if you're wrong, you're not picking a team for an upset that you thought was going to make a deep run other than that one game. So if I'm picking an upset, an early upset, maybe a 14 is going to be a three or something like that, you want to make sure that if you're wrong, that other team wasn't going to advance anyway. There's strategy involved in it and trying to win these bracket pools, which whether it's an office pool for friends of yours or these organized things, you have to make sure that whatever upsets you pick aren't going to completely blow up one of your regions . You know, people play spats based on your picks. And do you have any fun stories about either being the hero or villain for somebody? Yes. Oftentimes you hear more about when you're the goat and you make a mistake and somebody relies on it. But over the last probably 20 some years that we've been doing this. And honestly, David, when our company first asked us to start making picks in games, I didn't want to do it. My job has changed over the last I've been doing this 27 years now. It's changed over the last 20 I'd say when I first started, we were called color analysts. I was the color man in the game. We told you what was going to happen and why it was happening. Now people want to know, tell us in advance what the result is going to be. And if I really knew what the result was going to be, I wouldn't do this. I'd be out in Las Vegas raking in money sitting by the pool with a drink in my hand. Over the years when I've had good years in this and people have sent me checks and shared their winnings with me. I've never cashed him. That's probably stupidity on my part, but never cashed him. But I always thought it was funny that somebody took my picks and thought that, hey, you know, I should share this with Jay and very selfless on their part. And maybe they were stupid. We both were, but always got a warm by heart that somebody would do that. I love that. You know, when I interviewed Jim Nance on this program, he talked about how much time he spends preparing for a single broadcast. What's your process? My process, David, is really year round. Jim Nance is one of the icons in the game. And I first met Jim when I was in college when he first started doing the NCAA tournament. There's not a better pro out there. But Jim does golf. He does, you know, the NFL. He does basketball. His horizon is a lot wider than mine or longer than mine. I'm just basketball. And so I study the game year round. I watch high school players play. They're ultimately going to be in college. I study college players because I do the NBA draft and I study teams. So I feel like I've got every year a foundation of knowledge, at least I hope it's knowledge, that I bring into the season. And then I build on it for particular games. So I really dig in on teams. For example, you know, this weekend I have Kansas is playing Baylor, two top 10 teams. And I've seen both of them in person multiple times this year. So I have detailed scouting reports on them. And for every game, I watch game tape of their past several games and break down their strengths and weaknesses, offenses and defenses, what they do in out of bounds situations , both offensively and defensively. And I do scouting reports for each player. And I prepare charts for each game. And the way my little P brain works, I make the charts by hand. And some people use a computer and, you know, store their information. And I make my charts each game by hand. And that exercise helps hopefully cement the information into my tiny little brain so that when I go to the game, I feel prepared. And hopefully I am prepared. And then I can let the game take me where the game takes me. I may look down at the chart to get a particular stat on if a player is going to go into the free throw line. You know, what is he shooting? What, you know, what has he done in his last five games from the foul line? What does he do in the last five minutes from the foul line? Things like that. But other than that, it's pretty rare I look at those charts. I try to take a glance at it during halftime. I certainly consulted before the game starts. But my work is usually done the day before I get to a game. I do it a little bit, honestly, like I did it when I was in law school. I studied pretty hard coming up to a test, but I never studied the day before the exam. I wasn't a cramming type person. I wanted my mind to be uncluttered by the time I got to the test. And I figured if I didn't know it the day before, nothing I did the day before it was going to help me on the day of the test. I wanted to be fresh to perform. And there's a similar feeling in basketball that I try not to cram things in. I want my work done early so that I can have a free mind, a prepared but free mind when I get to the game and I'm ready to perform and ready to react to what I see with whatever knowledge I'm bringing to it. You know, when you think about leaders, there's always situations where stuff happens. Can you tell us about a broadcast that didn't go as planned and how you handled it? I'm one of those people, David, where when something happens, I first consider what control over this do I really have. I deal with what I can control and I try not to worry about what I can't control. And this has happened on multiple occasions. It's rare but you do hundreds of games over the course of a career. I don't know how many I've done a thousand, maybe more. It's got to be more. But when I first started in broadcasting, we used to do stand ups. So the play by play person and the analyst would be standing in front of the out on the court and we would do an introduction to the game. You know, a little two, three, four minute introduction to the game, we'd send it to commercial and then come back and we'd be sitting at the table, the game starts . And we were standing there. We'd rehearsed it several times. There were elements, video elements to it. And when right before we were about to go on the air, all the lights went out and all of the our lights, not the lights in the arena, but all our lights went out and all our video went out and we couldn't see anything. And I could not hear my partner through my earpiece. I could hear him right next to me, but there was a lot of noise in the building . And it was a moment that could have induced some panic, but I basically just said, you know what, I know this. All I have to do, the play by play person has the harder job of the two, I thought. And all I need to do is go by what I already know. And whether the video matches or not, it's not going to be a problem. I'll just deal with it. And I felt like I handled it pretty well. And that happened a couple times since then. And there are multiple times during the course of a broadcast where something goes wrong. And when you're on live television, you just have to handle it. I don't worry about, hey, you know, where are the lights? I'm not in control of the lights. I can't control the, you know, the electricity that flows through there or whatever happened. I just deal with the situation I have and make the best of it. And maybe that comes from having played. I don't know where it comes from, but I've been actually pretty gratified in those situations that it's worked out pretty well. It happened with Dick Enberg during the NCAA tournament. All of our stuff went out right before we went on the air. And at CBS at that time, we rehearsed things. Seems like all we did was rehearse. So I didn't feel like I was at a deficit and I had a calm feeling during it. That was helpful. It made me feel good about things. Absolutely. And you're a great analyst and your job obviously is to analyze what you see. How do you show up knowing that people are going to criticize you or disagree with you? You got a lot of fans out there who are going to have different views. How do you handle that? Well, it's interesting. I do hear that a lot and you hear it from different fan bases. And oftentimes you'll get criticism and usually it's 50% on each side. Maybe one fan base thinks you were biased toward the other and the other fan base thinks you're biased toward their rival. And so I don't really worry about that too much because that's just the nature of fandom. I actually had a question once at an open forum where somebody had brought that up. That somehow I was biased. I went to Duke and they thought I was biased toward Duke or something. And I asked the person, "Where did you go to school?" And the person went to the University of North Carolina, which I'm a great school and a great respect for. And I asked the person, I said, "I'm joking a little bit, but it's also a serious question. Do you think it's my mouth that's biased or it's your ears? Like, which is it?" And we got a little laugh out of it because fans have a rooting interest. I've been going to games now for 27 years without caring who wins. All I really root for in a basketball game that I cover is I am rooting for a good game and a compelling game. Nobody likes to call a blowout. I enjoy a good competitive game that's fun. I don't care who wins and I've never cared. I have too much respect for the competitors, the coaches and the players to have a rooting interest in a game. But when you do take criticism, and I don't know honestly David where this came from, but I made a conscious decision years ago, I thought about it, I thought, "You know what? I never argue with praise. And if I don't argue with praise, why would I argue with criticism?" And so when I deal with criticism, we all get it at one level or another. I ask myself three questions. I ask one, "Is the criticism right?" And if it's right, then I need to act positively upon it. And then I ask, "Is the criticism reasonable?" And if it's reasonable, I need to consider it and decide for myself whether it 's right or wrong and then act upon it based upon that determination. And then the last question, if it's unreasonable, I dismiss it right away because I don't think I can reason with unreasonable and I don't want to let that into my memory bank . So there are a lot of things that are said that you have access now to through social media that years ago would have been set in a barbershop or somebody's office or floated off into the ether, you'd never know about it. Now you know about those things. And so I just dismiss anything unreasonable. And if I come across people on social media that are vitriolic or unreasonably cruel, things like that, if it crosses the line to where it's bothersome, I'll just put them on mute and that way I don't have to see it. I don't block anybody, but I mute them because why do I need to see? I just don't need to let unreasonable into my life. That's the way I've chosen to handle it and at least for me it's worked out fairly well. Jay, one of the things I love about you is you're outspoken yourself. I mean, you take a stand on things. How do you know when to leverage your platform? Because you have a considerable platform and what would you say would be the most courageous and let's call it controversial stand that you've ever taken? That's a really, really profound question, David. I mean, the platform is a tremendous responsibility and ESPN for the last 25, 26 years has provided me. It's actually longer. It's 27, 28 years has provided me with that platform and I take it really seriously. I try first to stay in my lane. So I only a pine on things or provide my judgment on things that I believe are within my realm of expertise. Now, certainly I would include basketball in there, but I've been a practicing attorney for 30 years now. And so there are areas of policy, NCAA policy, law that I feel competent to a pine on, but I don't take a stand unless I have greatly considered the matter. And I'm different on the air than I am in a meeting if I'm in a committee meeting where you're trying to build consensus. When I'm on the air and I state a judgment, I don't say, well, I think this guy is the best player. I say this guy is the best player. I punctuate my comments and I put the appropriate weight behind it, whatever weight I carry. But I'm a lot different in a committee meeting because reasonable minds can differ and you're trying to build consensus and you want to be respectful of other opinions. I don't want to say I'm a different person, but it's a different way of providing your input. And as to the times there have been controversial moments, I've had plenty of those, but the one, the one that stands out over a decade ago, people will remember it as it was called the Duke lacrosse case. And I was awakened one morning by a radio station, a scheduled interview about the NCAA tournament. And while I was on that interview, I was asked about this Duke lacrosse matter and at that time I had not heard about it yet. It had just happened. And so I realized, you know, I went to Duke, I'm a lawyer, I'm on television at ESPN. This is going to be something I'm going to be asked about again. And I dug into it and I researched it and I determined after a fair amount of work that a lot of the pieces of this didn't make sense to me. I determined that the players' rights were not being protected or respected in this. And it was a very difficult and complex matter because of all of the political implications, implications in our societal views of things. And I felt like the complaining witness, the woman in the case, there was no reason that you should question her story and her account. She was to be believed. But at the same time, it's not only fair but important to ask, did these young men do this? And those two things are not mutually exclusive. And I determined that I didn't believe that the players' rights were being protected and I didn't believe that they were guilty of what they were accused of. And my wife thought I should stay out of it. And I felt like it was important that I jump in it. And when I was asked about it, and I did. And I was vocal about it. But I felt like I was right. And I was willing to take whatever criticism came with it. And it was something that required a lot of thought and had consequences to it. It was a lot different than who's the best team or who's the best point guard, which is the water I usually swim in. This was the deep end of the pool. But I felt my background and my training and whatever judgment I have, I felt like it was necessary that I state my beliefs and I did so. And I'm glad I was right, but I'm prouder that I was willing to step into it. You've likely heard me talk about how important it is to be self-aware. And one of the best ways to increase your self-awareness is to learn how to become a great self-coach. Now self-coaching is something you've never heard of. Or if you're interested in learning more about self-coaching, I wrote a self-co aching starter guide just for you. The guide will introduce you to the fundamental self-coaching concepts and point you towards the best version of yourself. In it you'll learn powerful insights for growth and have a simple plan you can use to coach yourself to success. To get the guide, go to takechargeofyou.com/guide. It's totally free and I know it will jumpstart you on your journey towards deeper self-awareness and a fulfilling life. Takechargeofyou.com/guide. There's a lot of change going on in college, basketball and college sports period these days. Had the transfer portal where now these players can move from one school to another every year if they want or the name, image, likeness deals, had the transfer portal or the NIL deals been around when you were playing at Duke in the 80s, do you think that would have changed you personally? Do you think it would have made you operate in a different way? I think it would have opened avenues of choice for me and for my teammates and my other colleagues, fellow players around the country. When I was playing, it was very restrictive on athletes. You couldn't transfer without sitting out a year. If you took a sandwich from a local sandwich shop, you were immediately ineligible. So many rules that didn't make any sense to me. If avenues were open to transfer at that time when both of us were younger, it was my way or the highway. The coaches said my way or the highway. Well now the players can take the highway if they want. There was no highway back there. It was like the Truman Show. Every highway went back to where he started. I don't think any of my decisions would have been any different. I think I would have certainly would have stayed because I was extraordinarily happy playing for Coach K and playing at Duke. But I think all of us would have rather had more choice rather than less. I can't think of a time in my life when, no, I would prefer to be restricted. I think it's positive for the players, but it's also responsibility. When you have choice, that opens up making a choice that might not be the best choice for you. So it requires more responsibility on the part of the players and their parents and guardians and advisors than it used to because there was no choice back then. Speaking of your time at Duke, you said, I count my decision to play for Coach K as the second most important and meaningful decision in my life. The first being my decision to marry my wife, Wendy, tell me about how you landed at Duke and why Coach K had such a big impact on you. You know, David, I grew up in Los Angeles. I grew up in a great family, my father, mother, neither one of them had the opportunity to attend college. So going to college was a big deal in our family. And when I became a recruited basketball player and it turned out that I wasn't going to have to apply to schools, they were asking me, hey, please come. That was an interesting moment when that dawned on you that I have my choice of where to go. I had a difficult relationship with my high school coach. It was really unpleasant. And we had a great high school team. My teammates were then and still are my great friends. But the experience with my coach was negative. And I decided as a 17 year old that I was not going to go through that in college, that whoever I played for it was going to be. That was the only time in my basketball life that I was going to get to choose who I played for. Professionally, you don't get to choose in high school. I didn't get to choose. And before that, I never got to choose. But I got to choose college and I was not going to screw that up. And I came down to not four schools. I came down to four coaches that I wanted to play for. And Coach K was far and away the choice for me. He was the least accomplished of the coaches I was considering and the least well known. But there was something about him that I just knew. He was honest, he was trustworthy, and I liked him. I thought, I want to play for him. And it ultimately came down to that. And David, everything that I count as important in my life now really was born out of that decision to play for Coach K. I met my wife in college. I wouldn't have met her had I not gone to do to play for Coach K. Coach K was the one that greased the skids for me to go to law school. He made that possible. He gave me a coaching job on his staff. And he really helped me more than anyone else get into broadcasting. When I was in high school, you become a good player and you have some newspaper articles done on you and they ask. At that time, everybody asked, what do you want to do after basketball? And I was 17 years old. I didn't know what I wanted to do. So there were some athletes getting into broadcasting back then. Frank Gifford, Don Drysdale, guys like that. And I thought, well, maybe broadcasting. And coaches that were recruiting me saw that and they started recruiting me based on broadcasting. Like they would say, hey, we've got a great communications department or Coach K introduced me to a guy named Chuck Howard at ABC Sports who started giving me jobs in the industry. And that's how it happened. And were it not for that? I'm not sure that anything I'm doing now would look the same. He really was the genesis of every good decision and every good thing that happened to me after college. And had I gone somewhere else, I don't think I'd be selling pencils on the street somewhere, but it wouldn't be the same. And I wouldn't have had the richness of that relationship with him and the richness of all the relationships I had with my teammates that he was the hub of. You know, Coach K is an acknowledged leader. There's no doubt about that. And you know, when you look back, Jay, you know, what's a one on one coaching session with Coach K like, you know, when he took you aside and gave you coaching, do you recall any specific time or give us a real hint of what kind of coach he was and how he would get you to raise your game? Oh, yeah. A lot of them. And most of them required a helmet. But if it was a basketball thing, he had a great way about him. When he got on you, you knew that action was was necessary. But he always did it in a way that, you know, hit you at your core, but at the same time, you knew that he believed that you could do it. So that there was always that belief in you that fueled you, even though the news he was delivering might have been a little bit negative that, hey, man, you're not doing what we're expecting you to do or you need to do a better job here, whatever it was. There was always that uplifting belief behind it that he wouldn't be asking you to do that if he didn't think you could or didn't believe in you to do it. And there were different times too that the basketball part was the most intense. But the other areas of your development, he was invested in and you weren't just a player to him that could deliver on the floor. He really coached you as the whole human being. And he never treated us the same. All the players on the team were not treated the same, but we are all treated fairly. He pushed different buttons with different players. Clearly I was one that could take a verbal beating and film session because I got plenty of them. There were other players who might have been a little more sensitive and he adjusted to their sensitivity in order to get the most out of them. And I think more than anything, David, he had a great feel for people and gave it a tremendous amount of thought. He's a deep thinker on relationships, how pieces fit together, less about X's and O's and more about getting to into your heart, if that makes sense. What changed Jay when you went from being a player to an assistant coach for him? What changed in your relationship, if anything? I'm not sure anything changed in the relationship. I mean, I think as a coach you were relied upon a little bit more for what you thought. There weren't many times when I was a player that he asked me, "Hey, what do you think about this?" As an assistant, your input was perhaps more valuable. I learned, David, that what he told us as players, just in a game plan, say Duke was playing North Carolina. Our game plan was digestible. I don't want to say simple because it was complicated, but we had a specific focus. He wasn't trying to teach us North Carolina's offense. He would say, "Here's what we need to take away. Here are the three things we need to do in the half court. Here are the three things we need to do in the route of bounds underneath. And here's what we need to do after a time out, whatever it was." But when you got behind the scenes in the game planning, we knew everything, and he knew everything. But he didn't overburden the players with too much information that might paralyze them. He wanted them to be able to react in the moment with what was necessary to do the job. It was almost like we were race car drivers. Here's how the car works. You don't need to know how to take apart the carburetor. He could take apart the carburetor. That was a great lesson for me and an education in understanding the depth of his preparation relative to what he gave to us because it was 10 to 1 in information. And I was glad he limited the players to the 1 because the 10 would have paralyzed me. I've heard you say, Jay, that wherever you are and whatever you committed yourself to doing, think about that and only that while you're doing it and when you're done, move on to the next thing. Tell us about how this approach has served you in your career. That came David from my dad. My dad is not a multitasker. He does a lot of things in a day and did a lot of things. He's 90 years old now, but he did a lot of things every day, but he did it one at a time and he didn't deviate from his task. He wasn't juggling a bunch of things at one time. He did what was in front of him and accomplished it and then moved on to the next thing right away. And I worked for him one summer. He had some commercial property at the time and he had a roofing project and he put me on the roofing crew. I was probably 20 years old, 21 maybe, and part of my job was in the morning before we started work. I had to carry the materials from the ground floor up to the roof and take them up a ladder. In my infinite stupidity, I figured if I take twice as much stuff up, I make half as many trips I can get this unpleasant part of the job over with. And I went up the ladder on one trip overloaded and I fell. The more I tell the story, the further up the ladder I was when I fell. I was probably about half way up maybe. I took a pretty good fall and I'm lucky I didn't get hurt. But my dad reacted like most parents. At first, he was really concerned that I'd hurt myself and when he found out I wasn't hurt, then he got mad. And he said something pretty profound at the time, although I don't think he felt like he was being profound. He was just trying to teach me something. And he said, "You can't get to the top of that ladder in one step, but you can get to the bottom in one step. Concentrate on what you're doing." And I really thought about that, that every step on that ladder was important. And the ones I'd already done right were behind me, "Who cares?" And the top of the ladder is the destination, but that's not going to matter if I don't pay attention to the rung I'm on. I've kind of used that as a metaphor, analogy, whatever to whatever I do now, that I have a job to do today. I'm going to do this job. I'll certainly have an eye for planning for the future, but I'm going to do what's in front of me and then I'll move on to the next thing. And that level of concentration I think is a skill that you can improve upon. It's not, you're not born with great concentration. You some have an aptitude for it that others don't, but there are none of us that can't improve it. And that's something I've worked on ever since I fell off that ladder, really. You know, after law school, you worked at a law firm and you won a court case against a purple dinosaur. You got to tell people that story. I was a commercial litigator and I still am with the same firm. I've been there for 30 years. One day we had a case walk through the door where a gentleman named Philip Morris, who had a large costume distributor ship, came in and he was being sued by Barney the purple dinosaur for trademark and copyright infringement. And Mr. Morris had been selling purple costumes and renting them out at his different locations and they looked exactly like Barney. They had different names, but people were buying them and renting them to use for parties and other things and passing them off as Barney. So we tried immediately to settle the case. The owners of Barney was called Lions Partnership at the time and oddly enough, as we're doing this, Barney is coming back out again. It's being sort of re-released now. When we couldn't settle it, we had to take it to trial in the Western District of North Carolina in federal court. And that was not what I had anticipated my work life to be, sort of my legal career. I thought I'd be arguing complex cases that really mattered. And here I'm arguing over some purple dinosaur. And I actually, the other side had really irritated me. So I tried to irritate them and I subpoenaed Barney to the trial. And they fought it and we got a hearing over it in front of Judge Mullen in the Western District. And the other side stood up and said, "Your Honor, there are only three of these costumes worldwide. They're all out at different shows around the country and around the world or all this stuff." And they made the argument that the costume was too unwieldy to bring to trial. And it was six foot eight inches tall and weighed about 250 pounds. And I stood up and said, "Your Honor, I'm six foot eight inches tall and I weigh about 240." And I got into the courtroom just fine. And the judge ordered Barney to the trial. And David, it almost backfired on me because the costume was brought in and they wouldn't let anybody see the costume unless it was in full regalia and somebody was in it. So they backed up a big truck to the loading dock of the courthouse and Barney popped out of the back of the truck. And it turned out that just about every federal employee in the courthouse was on that loading dock and some of them with their kids to see it. And I thought, "This is probably not the right move I made here. I might have miscalculated." But we wound up winning at the trial level and then we had to argue it before the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. It was, here I am arguing one step below the Supreme Court about Barney the Purple Dinosaur. So it was somewhat of a humbling experience for me. I love it. Then you joined ESPN in 1995 and you start your career as a commentator. What advice would you give the leaders when it comes to making career moves and how to decide what's next? I had started my legal career and planned on being a lawyer and only a lawyer. But my wife didn't want me really to stay in coaching. I shouldn't say my wife did. It was a we decision. We didn't feel like it was the best thing for our family because of the amount of times I may have to move with different jobs, the way coaching works. So we decided to go the law route. And David, I was fully invested in my law career. I had committed to it. I was going to spend the rest of my working life as a lawyer. And I received a phone call one day at my office from a guy named George Hable who was the president of the Capital Sports Network, is a big radio network. And he took me to lunch and asked me if I would do color commentary on the radio for basketball games. And I thought about it and I thought, you know, this would get me out of the office a little bit. It wasn't a lot of money, but if it's something I'm interested in, and if it doesn't work out, I'll quit. But I don't want to quit before I start. So I gave it a try and I really enjoyed it. And one thing led to another, somebody heard me and I started getting TV games and it became a career option for me where I had to choose between being a full-time lawyer, I'm still with my firm and still a licensed attorney. But 99% of my time is devoted to basketball for the last 20 years. But I think being open to the idea and not having no is my first answer. Now, I had a very good friend named Kevin Eastman that one time told me never say no to a basketball opportunity. And he was talking more about coaching, but I always kept that in mind that even though it may not fit into your schedule, it might cause you some discomfort here or there and maybe some difficulty. If it's something you think is important and you want to do, don't say no and work it out. And I worked it out and ultimately worked out to be a career changing decision for me and life changing in a lot of ways. Saying yes to George Hable for that, you know, what some would consider a small broadcast opportunity really changed my life and changed my career. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Jay Billes in just a moment . Jay mentions the great Jim Nance in our conversation and no doubt you'll be hearing a lot of Jim's incredible calls during the NCAA tournament and the Masters next month. Jim makes it all look so easy, but the reality is he pours so much time and preparation into every call. So he's always ready for whatever unfolds. I learned that number one, every show is your most important show. You never take anything for granted. I feel like out of respect to your audience and respect to the subjects that you're covering, you have to do the full detail research that depth of knowledge is the only way I know how to go about it. I feel like the broadcasters of my youth, David, they were that way. That's how they prepared and I'm trained the same way. No matter how talented you are, you've always got to show up prepared. Go back to episode 76 to see how Jim Nance does it here on How leaders lead. You've now been in the industry almost 30 years. What's the biggest lesson you've learned about TV broadcasting that has some really good application to other leaders? I think in my career, it has been less about flash and more about substance. I'm not saying I have great substance. What I'm saying is I've stuck to the substance of the job rather than the flash of it because I think in today's world, you can get caught up at times and we're all guilty of it, but getting caught up and being an entertainer instead of honoring the job and saying the right thing at the right time in the right tone. That's what I really think my job is. Be prepared and then when the time comes for you to say something, say the right thing, say it at the right time and say it at the right tone. There have been times when I've gotten all those wrong at one time or another, but the most important thing I've found is making sure in making a presentation that I 'm careful about my tone. If I'm critical, I want the criticism to be in the right tone and not be some sort of shouting, angry thing, that served me pretty well. I've made mistakes with it, but for the most part, I feel like I handle it the best way I can. But I always go back to the preparation part. Whatever judgment that I make, it's not on the spot. It's been considered and I put a lot of time into it. That doesn't automatically make me right in any situation, but it gives me the foundation to be right. And hopefully I'm right more often than I'm wrong. You had a friend give you some advice to never delay gratitude. How have you incorporated that into your life and career? That was Skip Prosser, the former head coach at Wake Forest, who I got to know when I was early in my broadcast career, when he was the head coach at Xavier. And Skip was a great friend and mentor of mine. And he used to say that all the time, "Don't delay gratitude." I try not to take anything for granted. I'm like everybody else. I have good days and bad days. But this is what I've always wanted to do. And when I walk into some of these arenas, whether it's Allen Fieldhouse or Cameron Endor Stadium or Polly Pavilion or Assembly Hall, whatever it is, I always look around and I say, "This is where I want to be. I need to be grateful for this." I could sit there and arrogantly say, "Well, I've worked for this. I deserve this." Maybe that's true. But what's really true is I'm fortunate to be here and I need to take advantage of it. And I'm fortunate to work with the people I work with and I need to let them know how much I value them. Every once in a while, David, I'll have. We're really proud of what we do so we have visitors a lot. And I do too. And I take them into the production truck and you show them around. It looks like a NASA space center. I try to tell them within earshot of everybody in there, these are where the real stars work. The people I work with, the producers, the directors, they're the best in their field. I consulted, I wrote a book years ago and I consulted a NASA engineer named D arryl Woods. And he was really helpful to me in illuminating a lot of things. And he had talked about getting this complex team together for the space shuttle that all had different elements of the shuttle that they were responsible for. And I asked him, "What's the biggest challenge?" And he said, "The biggest challenge is all these different units that we have that are charged with the guidance system and the rocket booster system or things like that. They can get siloed in their work and think that their element is the most important thing." And he came up with this phrase, he would say, "Responsible to the element accountable to the mission." He would talk to his group and say, "Your element will not fly by itself, but the spacecraft will not fly without your element." And so it was of vital importance, but it's not the only thing. And when I heard him say, "Responsible to the element accountable to the mission," the first thing I thought about was basketball. And he's a huge basketball fan, Darryl Kintucky fan. And I thought basketball, like that's man-to-man defense. Like I'm responsible for this man. He's my assignment. But if he doesn't score, that doesn't mean I've been successful. The mission is to stop the other team from scoring. And I have to do what it takes, be responsible for my man, but accountable to our entire defense to make sure that the other team doesn't score. You're part of a larger hole. And sometimes it's hard for people, players, lawyers, broadcasters, to think, " When I sit on the sidelines for a game, we as broadcasters get the most attention. We're not the most important because if all the equipment doesn't work, nobody hears what we can say anyway." And if the pictures aren't good from the camera professionals, then the people that are watching the game aren't having a good experience no matter what I say. I'm not going to be a radio broadcaster and illuminate something. If they can't see the pictures, they're turning the TV off. So you're part of a larger hole in accepting that, I think, is really important in understanding your place in it. You've also been able to see all these fantastic programs that perform at the highest level year after year. What do you see in those cultures that makes them so successful? I think every culture is different in important ways, but they also have similar foundations. One of the coaches that I've been most fascinated by in the last 10 years or so that I've been around him and studying his program has been Virginia's Tony Bennett. And Tony Bennett is one of the nicest human beings you have ever met. You look up integrity in the dictionary and compassion. There's likely to be Tony's picture. That's the kind of person he is. But at the same time, he's a cutthroat competitor during the games and in preparing for the games. And you found out that you can be incredibly nice and incredibly competitive at the same time. Those things are not mutually exclusive. And David, you may get a kick out of this, but it was really revelatory to me. It's three, four years ago, maybe. I'm doing a game at Florida State, Virginia's playing Florida State, and Florida State beat the hell out of them. There's Muldam and Virginia was not good that night and they were a really good team. They just didn't play well. And after the game, Tony Bennett went into his press conference and most coaches in that situation would have been kind of fiery and saying that was unacceptable and sort of blame the players and say, I didn't do a good job coaching. We didn't do a good job playing. That was unacceptable, you know, stuff like that because maybe that's what people want to hear. I don't know. I came in there and very quietly said it in the microphone, we're thankful for the lessons that adversity teaches us. And he didn't beat up the players. They just got back to work. And I've seen him in practice where most coaches would blow their stack and start calling the players names when maybe effort wasn't where it should have been. And Tony said in a mid-level voice, that was an anemic effort. And I'm like, anemic. I've never heard a coach say anemic. That was an anemic effort. But his players play hard, but they play with joy. They're joyful that they have this opportunity and they're going to take advantage of it. They're grateful to be with each other and they're going to go out and fight together and they're going to accept the result and move on and endeavor to do better the next time whether they win or lose. He's an extraordinary leader. It shows that you can do it in a way that's not militaristic or loud or profane . He to me is among those coaches that model the behavior that I would want my son or daughter to be around every day. I just love the way he does it. You know, Jay, this has been so much fun. I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. And are you ready for this? I'm ready. What's one word others would use to describe you? Smug probably is the first one. But I get tall a lot. Tall and bald comes across a lot. What would you say is the one word that best describes you? I think I'm thoughtful. I may not be right, but if I say something or think something, I've thought about it. So I would say thoughtful. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be and why? I'd love to be Tiger Woods for a day just to see what it feels like to have control of a golf game. But I would like to be Muhammad Ali for a day to see what it's like to live that sort of extraordinary life with all that he went through and all he accomplished. And as perhaps the most recognizable figure in the world for a period, I would like to have been him for a day. What's your biggest pet peeve? People that take their shoes off on airplanes. I'm on airplanes all the time. For some reason, when people take their shoes off, I just, I can't take it. When was the last time you dunked a basketball? About four years ago, and I realized that I'm never going to try it again. I'm 59 now. And not only are my dunking days over, but I'm not going to play pickleball. I'm no longer going to make quick movements. My whole life now is dedicated to avoiding injury. So it doesn't affect how many rounds of golf I can play. You and I share that in common, believe me. Describe your dream, commentating scenario. Who's playing and in what arena? I would love to see Duke North Carolina at Allen Fieldhouse. I don't know if you've ever been to Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence, Kansas, but it's the equivalent of a golfer going to St. Andrews. The history of the game is there. James Naismith invented the game. He was the first coach there and Kansas is only losing head coach career wise. Every road that extends in basketball leads back to Lawrence, Kansas and Allen Fieldhouse. If I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear? Right now you'd hear sports radio because it's basketball season, but if it were not in basketball season, it would be on a music channel, most likely something that had the rolling stones, Led Zeppelin, things like that. What's something about you that few people would know? When I was young, my mother was very concerned that I would be an uncultured Neanderthal athlete. She made me take ballroom dancing classes. And the instructor was a former ballroom dance champion named Margaret Michael. She apparently saw some aptitude in me and she got me a partner and we competed in ballroom dance competitions and won quite a few. I never put the trophies out for display in my room because I didn't want any of my friends to find out that I was a ballroom dancer. But in school, I can't remember what grade it was. We had to take Catillion. The boys all acted like we didn't want to do it. We really didn't. But I was good at it. And some of my friends were like, how do you know all this stuff? And I immediately shot back because I'm an athlete. How can you not do this? They didn't know I had actually ballroom dance training. Well, that's the end of the lightning round. That's great. I'm not going to forget about the ballroom dance training you have. I'm happy to teach you the Fox trot anytime you want. When you were at Duke, Michael Jordan was playing across town at UNC. What do you remember about the first time you played against him? The first time I played against Michael Jordan was in pickup games in Chapel Hill in Durham. The Duke players in the North Carolina players used to get together in the fall and the spring and play pickup games. And we would go to Chapel Hill for a week and they would come down to Durham for a week, things like that. So the burden would be equal on making the trip. And honestly, David, I had never seen an athlete like that. When I was in high school, I was one of those players where the more I worked, the better I got. And I didn't see a ceiling to it. And then when I got to college and I saw Michael Jordan and Len Bias and Ralph Sampson, guys like that, Johnny Dawkins, a teammate of mine, I realized that I had a ceiling. Those guys didn't have a ceiling. I had a ceiling that I was never going to be able to do that stuff. It didn't mean I couldn't win in a game that I couldn't be successful. But you saw what real genius ability and superstar ability looked like. And the first game, the first Duke North Carolina game that we played when Michael Jordan was, I think it was a sophomore, we had gotten a steal. One of our guards got a steal and was taking it down to lay it in. And Jordan came to block it, I believe, and hit his head on the backboard. They had to stop the game for a little while so he could get medical attention, I think. And I remember, I'd never seen anybody hit their head on the backboard. And he hit his head on the backboard. Then we're dealing with a different cat here. We're not going to see much of this from other guys. And he was truly unique as a player. And it was an honor to play against them. One once against them in a big game. I have this. The last time I played against Michael Jordan, my team won. The only positive I have about playing against them. Not many people could say that. Who do you have your eye on in the high school or college game today that you believe has the same impact potential of someone like Michael Jordan? Is there anybody out there? There are a number of players that are going to be superstars that are coming out of high school right now. But there's one player, he's from France. His name is Victor Wimbanyama. And he's seven foot four. And he's a guard. He shoots threes. He's got an unbelievable handle. He can pass it. If you had the choice now, David, between Victor Wimbanyama and an 18 year old LeBron James, it would be a hard decision. That's how good this young man is. He's the way the future of the game is going to be. I've never seen anything quite like him. Zion Williamson, I'd never seen anything like him. But this guy is even different from Zion. He can really shoot it. As long as he stays healthy, he's going to revolutionize the game. Just a couple more questions and I'll let you go. Jay Williams gave you a giant compliment saying there's no bigger influence on the sport of basketball than Jay Billes. What's the mark that you hope to leave on the game? Honestly, David, I don't know that I have or will. Jay was very kind to say that, but I honestly don't think it's true. When I think back on the games that I remember as a kid in college, whatever, I don't remember who broadcast the games. I remember the players and the coaches and the game itself. We as broadcasters helped with fans enjoyment of the game, but I think we'd be overstating it if we felt like we were of any great impact. Whenever this is done for me, all I really want is to have enjoyed the experience which I have and to have enjoyed my colleagues, which I really have and to walk away knowing that I was one of the luckiest people on the planet to be able to do what I enjoy doing. We're not in the arena. We're just part of the atmosphere. I think it would be arrogant of me to think that I could leave any sort of mark . The one thing I do hope though is that especially as I've gotten older in the business, I've been more mindful to try to help the younger, less experienced people to provide whatever help I can and encouragement especially that when they do a good job to let them know, man, I noticed like that was you're really good and you did a great job. If they have anything I can help them with without getting in their way, I'm always happy to do that because that's the best impact you can have is the people in your field to one encourage them, but also to help whenever you can. Let me wrap this up here with what's one piece of advice you'd give anyone who wants to be a better leader? You know, I've been really lucky, David. I was one of the maybe millions of people influenced by General Martin Dempsey. And when asked about leadership and what leadership is, he said leadership is character, competence and humility, character self-explanatory, competence being an expert in your field, and then humility to know that you're fortunate to be in a leadership position. It carries with it a great responsibility, but it's not about you as the leader . It's about those that you are leading. You know, your people eat first. They need to be taken care of first and have whatever they need to do their jobs and their professional development. Being good at something means you have to have the humility to prepare and then the confidence to pull it off. And that's what a lot of the best leaders do. They put their people in a position where they have the confidence to do what they're charged with doing, and you help them to be prepared to pull it off. To me, Martin, there's nobody that's a better leader that I've come across in General Martin Dempsey. And when he said that, it really resonated with me. Well, Jay, I have to tell you, I think you're revolutionizing basketball analysis and commentating. And you've been doing it for a long time and you keep up in your game. And I can't thank you enough for taking the time to share your insights with us today. I really appreciate you, buddy. Oh, David, it's my honor. And then thank you for all you're doing. I mean, for you to use your expertise and to put this kind of quality content. I mean, this is going to be a big downer for people to listen to me today. But I'm an avid listener of your podcast and the amazing guests you have and all of your insights. Thank you for doing this. I've got to tell you, I just love a leader who can find wisdom anywhere and everywhere. From rap lyrics to a NASA engineer to something his dad said once about a ladder. I mean, Jay is tuned into the substantial things in life, isn't he? He's all about true wisdom, real insights and honest opinions. You know, these days it's so easy to focus less on those substantial things and instead get caught up in appearances and performances and all the fluff and flash that 's in this world. But the very best leaders I know, like Jay, put substance before style. They honor the work itself. They seek out true wisdom, not just flimsy platitudes. This week, I want you to ask yourself how you could bring more substance into your life as a leader. Dig into that research. Do the work to form your opinions before you step into that meeting. Read that book you've been meaning to read. It takes a lot of grit and effort, but when you honor the substance of your work, people take notice and they respect you so much more because of it. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders put substance before style. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Don Hudson, the former CEO of PepsiCoA North America. While the numbers of diversity, women and people of color in the workforce is significantly higher, the culture and the feeling of inclusion is not changed much. You have to pretty overtly try to change some of these very subtle, some people call them microaggressions. That feels very aggressive to us. So we call them these micro moments. They're moments that are important for one person in the room, but may not be noticed by the others. So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. Thank you. Have a great day. for today's episode. [ Silence ]