David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. As you can probably hear, I'm fighting a pretty bad cold right now, so please pardon the sound of my voice. But I could not pass up the opportunity to sit down with one of the world's best golfers Rory McIlroy. And the timing couldn't be better because today is round one at the PGA Championship at Valhalla golf club, right here in my hometown of Louisville, Kentucky. My Valhalla partners and I have been working hard for this moment. And I can't wait for you to see this beautiful course and the one of a kind golf experience you can only find here in Kentucky. And guess what the last time Valhalla hosted the PGA Championship was back in 2014. When the winner was, you guessed it none other than Rory McIlroy. I loved having a chance to talk with him ahead of the tournament. And I really enjoyed hearing him talk about why it's so important to keep an open mind if you want to lead well. So let's jump in. Here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Rory McIlroy. And again, I apologize for the cold

Rory McIlroy 1:27 

Roy, it's great to have you on the show. Good to be back. Glad that we can make it happen. Yeah, me too. The last time the PGA Championship was hosted at Valhalla. 10 years ago, you won. I remember rooting for you very madly. And what's the behind the scenes story from the 2014 PGA that, that maybe you haven't told before? I'd say the the big thing for me of like that PGA Championship was a hard Sunday morning was you know, you're sleeping on the lead overnight, and then you get this weather delay that comes in, and you don't tee off until, you know, maybe two hours after your tee time was supposed to be. So I think just waiting around for those all that extra time. And you've got all this like anxious energy, and you just want to get out there and try to you know, get this thing. Basically try to get it over and done with and that was the hardest part of the week that the Golf was almost like the easy part. The hard part was trying to keep my mind quiet on Sunday morning when I had to wait those extra couple hours to go out and play. You know, I think all leaders have that as a challenge from time to time. What do you do when you have that anxiety creep in? I mean, how do you get the quiet mind? sort of counterintuitive, but I always try to imagine the worst case scenario, like on the golf course. Okay, well, you know, if you're worried about the first tee shot, okay, if you hit it in the trees, what are you going to do, you're going to walk up to your ball, you're going to try to find a gap in the trees, and you're going to, you're going to figure it out, you trust that you've done this so many times before you fall back on all those experiences that you've had before. And it's a counterintuitive way to look at it. But I think when you imagine the worst case scenario, and you come out of that, and you think well, that worst case scenario actually wouldn't be so bad because I'd figure it out. And I'd I'd make a different decision. And then I'd move forward. I think that gives you a you know, a level of comfort instead of just ruminating in your head the whole time. Well, one thing for sure, Rory, in 2014, you figured things out whatever came your way, whatever challenge you had you figured out how to win, even if it was finishing in the dark, almost you know, that you really made it happen. And one of the things that I really find interesting about what you've been going through as leaders that you've been on the board of the PGA Tour, and you've seen up close and personal the the rivalry of the PGA and live and all the developments. I'm really curious as to what you take away as you step back and reflect because you are a person that always steps back and reflects on things and takes in new information. What do you take as the main leadership lessons from that situation that any leader could learn from? I think the one thing that I have learned through this whole process is to be a little more open minded. I think once you have a position, and you dig your heels in, it's very hard to get out of that position. Right. So I learned because I was a little bit that way too. I think you have to be open minded, I think you have to be able to see things from the other side, you have to be able to put a foot on the other in the other shoe and see if you know if there's any areas of common interest there. Okay, is there? Yes, we disagree on a lot of things, but is there some things that we agree on? And that's a good starting point to try to figure out a resolution? So I think if some of us were a little more open minded through all this, I think a lot of the pm could have been avoided. And we wouldn't be in the position that we're in. But you know, that's with the luxury of hindsight. You know, we're never trying to be more open minded and trying to put it all back together. But I think once you take a position and

understand that's sort of set in stone for you, it's very hard to reverse side of that if, if the situation requires it, I gotta

David Novak 5:07 

give you a lot of credit because you have evolved. I mean, you know, you came out and you said, I hate live or something to that extent in and now you seem to have softened your view. What's it take for you as a leader? To change your mind on something,

Rory McIlroy 5:21 

I think I think being able to change your mind is one of the greatest things in the human experience. Because if you can't change your mind based on new information, then that's not a great place to start from. So I think for me, being able to change my mind on this based on new information, and trying to be a little more open minded and trying to talk to people from the other side, yeah, of course, that you're going to hear both arguments and both sides. And you're going to you're going to make your mind up and sort of see where you land. But I feel like I've gotten a little bit of criticism for changing my mind, but I actually being able to change your mind as a good thing. I don't think it's flip flopping, I don't think it's a bad thing. I truly think someone that's able to change their mind based on new information is an open minded person.

David Novak 6:10 

I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, one of the things that I've had to open up my mind to is live, because I'm a golf purist, you know, I mean, turning on the television and watching live with the music and guys out there playing shotgun start all this kind of good stuff. But I started watching it a little bit, because you know, John ROMs, a good buddy of mine, he went to live, so I want to follow him. And I'm just curious, you know, I think everybody has to pay attention to competition. When you look at what lives doing, just from a competitive standpoint, if you're the PGA Tour, what's something that the PGA might be able to learn from live?

Rory McIlroy 6:45 

I think tapping into a different demographic, you talk about being a golf purist and a traditionalist and I think that's the PGA Tour appeals to that type of golf fun. We're live appeals to a completely different demographic. And you're the average age of a golf here in the United States is over 60 years old, you know, so how can you tap into this younger demographic where hopefully going to watch golf for the remainder of their life? So being a little more forward thinking, and having a little more vision, I think is something that lives have done pretty well. I mean, I still don't 54 holes, shotgun starts the team element, there's a few things to me that they haven't quite got, right. But I don't know if that's completely their fault. You know, they had to launch at some point. And they they launched with a product that probably wasn't fully thought out, but they had to go with it. They've gained a little traction, I wouldn't say they've gained a lot of traction, but they've definitely, they've definitely been a disruptor in the game of golf. And, you know, sometimes things need a shake up. And if anything, I think it was a bit of a wake up call for the PGA Tour to, to maybe focus a little bit more on the future. And there's so many inbuilt advantages that the PGA Tour has over live in terms of the commercial contracts and media rights deals. And you know, there's just so many things that they have that live don't. But at the end of the day, all of that stuff goes away the commercial end of it and sponsorship deals and media rights if people aren't willing to watch and engage with the product that you're putting out there. And I think we've seen this year that, yeah, live has maybe taken away a little bit of market share from the PGA Tour, even though the PGA Tour is still the most watched golf platform in the world. But I think to find consensus, a lot of people that I talked to, would much rather all the best players be together again, the PGA Tour players have stayed. And that's not really not our fault. But at the same time, I don't think we can start playing the blame game here. I think we just need to see the bigger picture and try to do what's best for the game of golf.

David Novak 8:44 

I'm not that close to it. So I really don't have a personal answer to this. But I golf with people all the time. And you know, people have a hell of a time figuring out what a live PGA or PGA live merger would really look like, hypothetically, what would it look like? Because we all want to see the best players in the world play each other? Absolutely.

Rory McIlroy 9:04 

So I would say the core golf season would look much different. So you've got the four major championships and the bigger individual tournaments. But I think there is a way so Tiger myself and Mike mcara Lee founded TGL a couple of years ago, that's that's going to launch in January of 2025. You know, that's a fun, forward thinking team type of league that you know, in golf and, you know, will hopefully provide the viewer a different sort of experience of how to watch golf and it's going to be very cool, very much technology forward, you know, massive disservice to call it a simulator. It's, you know, you're hitting balls into this IMAX screen. You know, it's a made for TV event. So it's going to be a very different way to consume golf. But I think if there's a way to, we have TGL, which is purely PGA Tour players, but if there's a way to, I don't know if merge the businesses is the right word, if you try to do Expand team golf and try to make it like this bigger entity so that you maybe have TGL can have some of the live guys come over and play with their teams, and then maybe live more on the back end of the year, like post the summer sort of going into the fall, you know, maybe have some of the TGL teams start to play in some of the live type tournaments. It's a bridge, I don't know if that will be the permanent solution. But it at least is something where, because it seems like the team element is something that is very important for the live people. So if you can try to incorporate more of that team golf within the entire calendar year, that's sort of like a win for them. And then also, if you can, you know, try to put everything back together a little bit and have you know, it would be great for John rom to be here this week in Charlotte, or, you know, Bryson to be at the Arnold Palmer Invitational because he's one there before, calm Smith to be at the Players Championship, because he lives there, and he's one there, you know, I think guys made those decisions to not be able to take a part of those, which is fine, but at the same time, I think those tournaments would benefit from having those guys there. So it's a long road, I don't think we're really going to see anything materialize until at least 2026. But I know that people are putting their heads together and trying to figure this out. So there's hope, seeking

David Novak 11:19 

some common ground it sounds like and some common sense might get us there, you know, yeah, hopefully for the world of golf, that that's in the cards. You know, Rory, I met you a little over 10 years ago, one of the things that really piqued my interest was your interest in me the fact that you pepper me with all kinds of questions. And it was clear to me that you're really a very active learner, how do you go about, you know, learning your business acumen, because I'd like you to just share some of the interests you have outside of golf, which is really considerable. Now, some of them are golf related, but you've really line extended yourself and moved into other businesses, tell us about what you're into.

Rory McIlroy 11:57 

I would say the, you know, the first part of like, being an active learner, I would say that I didn't pick that up until probably my, my early 20s. I wasn't much of a student. I wasn't too interested in school. But I think as I as I traveled the world, and I think traveling the world is a wonderful education. You just You learn so much about yourself, you learn so much about other people and different cultures and how other people lives and their beliefs. And I think traveling is such a great education in itself. But you're spending time with people like you and you know, especially in the golf world, golf and business is so linked, and it always has been. And I think that I've not always had an interest, but I think just seeing the similarities as well. And you know, being a competitive person and getting into the, you know, maybe the business side of things, it's a different side of my competitiveness, that I can bring out what I really gotten interested in, it's within the golf world, but it's how can we bring the game of golf into the 21st century? So I've invested in quite a few businesses that are looking towards the future and okay, how, how do people consume content? How are they going to watch golf moving forward? People, you know, there's more, there's more golf shots hit, not on golf courses anymore. So top golf and pop stroke, and pottery and simulator golf. So how can we? How can we take advantage of that? How can we get more people into that? That's a unintimidating way to introduce people to the game of golf, which is wonderful. And then from there, if they want to go and take a lesson with their local PGA pro, they can and get into a deeper. So that's been a big area of focus for us, because Gulf is so rigid in its history, and its traditions, which is wonderful. But at the same time, you know, it has to move into the 21st century. So that's been a big, big driver for me. And then I think, from there, just, you know, in the investing world and seeing opportunities, and yeah, trying to learn from people that I either played problems with, or I learned from people that I've gotten to know just, you know, within the golf world, and that's a passion of mine, it's a passion to try to look forward and see if there's a company that's doing really interesting things and whether that's a an opportunity that you should take advantage of. And I think the one thing that I'm grateful for is that I can certainly invest my money in certain companies or in certain things, but I think I've got enough of a platform to try to influence those investments in some way as well. So more of an active investor rather than a possible it's been an education, it still is an education. I'm, you know, golf is my full time job. And I want to make sure that I, the main thing stays the main thing. I think I'm a more well rounded person by having these other interests in my life. I

David Novak 14:45 

like to get into how people make decisions and you did kind of get out of out of golf on this one. Tell me about how you made the decision to get involved in Formula One. Yeah,

Rory McIlroy 14:55 

so I've always been a fan of Formula One, but it was never something that I thought that I would get into from an investment standpoint, it's, it's a pretty expensive sport. When I invest, I also want to see who's investing in the same thing. So I invested in the LP in Formula One team and Ryan Reynolds and his partner, Rob McElhenney, who they have their own fund called maximum effort. They were investing in the CM Ra. And as I was, and I thought that was super interesting, because I watched what they've done with Wrexham, and they've turned a relatively obscure British soccer team into one of the most well known sports teams in the world. And I think they've got such a great platform, and they can amplify what they do so much, and I thought to co invest with them would be a really great opportunity and might provide some more opportunities down the road. So that helping thing and getting into Formula One was exciting as a fun, but it also who I was investing with was, was really important.

David Novak 15:54 

So you know, you have all these business interests, which means you're bringing on a lot of people issues, a lot of people challenges, either people that you pay as consultants or, or people that you you bring on your your team directly. How do you think about the people you have to lead, I

Rory McIlroy 16:12 

always try to say to whoever is working on my behalf, you know, you're not an extension of me. And, you know, I want you to try to act accordingly. What you know, I'm whatever that means. But I think, for me, I think I'm a pretty kind person, and I like to lead with with kindness and encouragement. And I wouldn't ask anyone to lead with an iron fist unless they really, really feel like they have to, but definitely, compassion. I think that's, you know, trying to be compassionate, trying to see things from the other side at times. And yeah, just trying to have an open mind, I think is a is a great way to either lead yourself or if you have to ask people to lead for you, I think that's a good way to do it.

David Novak 16:58 

Now, your your caddy, Harry diamond, you've had for quite a few years now and you have a great relationship. He's one of your best friends, if not your best friend. What advice can you give leaders on making business relationships work with close friends?

Rory McIlroy 17:12 

Yeah, it's, it's difficult. And for me, I have a lot of those in my life, where it's either a friend has become someone that I work with, or someone that I work with, has become a very close friend. So I do have quite a lot of those relationships in my world. And the one great thing about it is, I know that I can be so open and honest with Harry, and he's not going to get upset, or he's not going to take it the wrong way. And he can be so open and honest with me. And he feels exactly the same way. So I think open honest communication, not being afraid to say the hard thing sometimes. That's the level of comfort that you need with anyone that you work with, or any relationship you have in your life. But especially when you've got that dynamic, where you've got a very good friend that also is working with you in some way, being open, being honest, having clear communication at all times not not keeping anything to yourself, just letting it all like there. I even if it's something I don't want to hear, I appreciate that someone tells me that because for someone in a in a position where they are working for me, it's hard to say the truth sometimes. And if they think that I don't want to hear it, it's hard to say that but I would much rather they did, because they're being open and honest. And we'll always be able to have a conversation and figure it out. I

David Novak 18:38 

know you and Harry met when you were kids growing up in Northern Ireland. So I want to take you back to that period of your life. Is there a story from your childhood that has really shaped the kind of leader that you are today.

Rory McIlroy 18:51 

So at Hollywood golf club, where Harry and I grew up, Harry is five years older than me just under five years older than me. So we met in the summer of 1996. I was seven years old at the time, he was 11 or 12. I was always the youngest kid at Hollywood golf club. So I think by being the youngest and having to try to prove myself all the time, that sort of shaped my leadership style in terms of like trying to lead by example, and trying to prove myself over and over again. That's the mindset that I always try to take with. With all things in my life. It's almost like you know what, you've, what you did yesterday is wonderful, and it's great and if you've had success, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have success moving forward. So keeping on proving yourself keeping on trying to master your craft keeping on trying to lead by example, I think by being the youngest a lot in you know, in my early years I think that really shaped how my mindset is when when it comes to that, you

David Novak 19:56 

know, I've had the great fortune to get to know your father Jerry and well One of the clubs that we're in, and he's got to be probably the most popular member. I mean, everybody loves playing with him. So I was curious, you know, what did you pick up with him as your father that you've really tried to apply to your own life positivity,

Rory McIlroy 20:13 

he is the most positive person on earth, he couldn't see a silver lining in anything. He is just the eternal optimist. And I think that and I do get that from my dad a lot. I don't think you should be wearing rose colored glasses all the time with every thing that you do in life. But my dad is such a great example of seeing the good in everyone and seeing the good and everything. And that's a wonderful trait to have. And I was so lucky as a child to be able to grow up in a in a household and an environment like that, where it was positivity and happiness over everything else. I'm obviously very grateful for that. I

David Novak 20:53 

was surprised when I learned this when we met, but you didn't finish high school and you never went to college. And I just wrote this new book called How leaders learn. And you mentioned, you learned a lot from your international travel, which really piqued your interest, a lot of areas. What's one of the biggest leadership lessons that you've picked up, either from your travels, or by working with other people? Yeah,

Rory McIlroy 21:16 

I think working with other people, or listening to other people, I remember listening to one of your podcasts with Tom Brady, a couple of years ago, and I'm having my notebook beside me, and writing down all these different things that Tom was saying to you about leadership, and especially in his position, as a quarterback trying to get everyone to work together. I've still got those notes from that podcast that I listened to. But I think it's all it's seeking. Excellence, it's seeking out people that are the best at what they do. And learning from them. You don't have to know them. You know, there's a lot of books out there. There's a lot of podcasts, there's a lot of, there's a lot of everything. We have so much at our fingertips, and we have access to so much and you know, your mentors don't have to be people that you know. And I think that's the one thing that I've realized I can you know, if I want to go and listen to an interview with Warren Buffett, I can if I want to go and listen to a podcast with Tom Brady, if I want to go and listen or read something about a person that's a leader in another industry, you know, you can go and do that. So that one of the biggest lessons and one of the easiest ways to learn you don't have to take everything that they say. But if there's one or two little tidbits that really resonate with you, then you know what makes the the are two of listening to something. It's makes it so worthwhile.

David Novak 22:43 

Will be back with the rest of my conversation with Roy McElroy in just a moment. Rory mentioned taking notes as he listened to my conversation with Tom Brady. Well, those same leadership insights Rory heard are waiting for you, including this one about Tom's three C's of communication, clear

Tom Brady 23:00 

current communication, be really clear about what it is. And let's be really current about we're talking about and let's talk. And I think if we work on those things, then, you know, I don't want to have to guess all the time what you're thinking, you know, we can't solve problems if you're thinking one thing or thinking another or I really find it difficult for people who create expectations without telling the other person. You know, well, this is what, you know, this is what I was expecting them to do. But they never did it. I'm like, Well, did you ever tell them or know what I mean? They should know? Yeah, I'm like, get that out of here. I don't want to hear that, you know, now I can hold you accountable. If I told you, Hey, do this, or I'm expecting this to happen, a particular situation, if you don't do that situation, or that what I said we're, you know, we're gonna have a talk. But if I don't ever tell you what I want, then how can I hold you accountable for that. So CCC is really important on a personal level, but it's certainly really important in a professional environment as well.

David Novak 24:01 

So grab a pen and paper and just like Roy, go and listen to the interview with Tom Brady, Episode 53 here on how leaders lead.

As I understand it for a while, you were ambitious from the very beginning that you actually set the goal when you were seven years old and said you want to be the number one golfer in the world. And then you you finally achieve that you're ranked number one in the world, you know, what was that? Like when you hit that big goal?

Rory McIlroy 24:34 

I caught myself very lucky that I'm in such a fortunate position that I can go out and chase my dreams basically every day. And I don't know if every one in the world can say that. So you know, I'm obviously very grateful for that. But it was it was it was a dream come true. It was a dream I had from when I was a little boy growing up in Northern Ireland and Hollywood, you know and a ton of 12,000 people You know, the PGA Tour and Tiger Woods and you know, all those guys were a world away from where I grew up. So to be able to achieve that at 22 years of age to have Tiger Woods be the one that finished second in the in that tournament that I did get to world number one, I mean, I couldn't have I couldn't have scripted at any better it was a dream come true. And you know, luckily I've been able to get to the peak of World Golf a few times and but probably nothing will compare to that first time when and it's the same thing that's for you know, the first time you get to world number one or the first major you win or it's the you know, those firsts are just so they're so incredible, and they're so satisfying, but they're also so motivating. It's like okay, well I've done this and I want to do it again,

David Novak 25:43 

would that experience teach you about goal setting? My

Rory McIlroy 25:48 

attitude towards goal setting is, is a little different. I think people you can make these grand ambitious plans. But if you don't have a structure or a system to work within, someone said once that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you you fall to the level of your systems. So if you have good systems in place, so for me, that would be okay, I want to be the best player in the world, or I want to win the Masters one day, for example. Okay, that's, that's great. But how do you get there? And it's all to do? What does a practice day look like for me? Okay, well, I want to be in the gym for two hours. And I want to work on my short game for this amount of time. And I want to do this, and I want to do that. So my goals start to become more process driven, rather than result driven. So if I can make my goals about the process, and I can check the boxes while I'm practicing, and while I'm doing my, the stuff I need to do, then hopefully one day the results should just take care of itself. That's sort of my attitude towards goal setting, but you need to set the big goal to start, obviously, but then it's breaking it down into like, into these little sections that I think is the real important stuff.

David Novak 26:58 

I'll tell you one thing about golf, and I don't care what level you're at, it's hard to win. Um, it is really hard to win, you're competing against so many people, and so many things can go right or wrong, you know, and, and success is obviously a wonderful teacher, but soak in failure be I mean, you know, what's the biggest lessons that you've learned from failure, and it happens to us all,

Rory McIlroy 27:21 

I'm so appreciative of the, of the failures that I've had or the, the opportunities I've, you know, they're not there. They're failures, because you want to do something, and you don't quite do it. But there are opportunities to learn. And you certainly learn more on your failures than you do on your wins, you reflect a little bit more on your failures too. And you try to glean some learnings from them. And that's the one thing that I've really prided myself on my whole career is my resilience. If I have a failure, if I have a bad week, I reflect on it, I think about what I could do better, and then I get back to work. And the one great thing about golf too, is there's so many tournaments, there's always the next week, there's always an opportunity to get back on the horse and do it again. So, you know, that's the lucky thing of like sailing and golf. There's always the next week.

David Novak 28:08 

I couldn't agree with you more on that, you know, your weeks are a lot better than mine. One of the things I just love watching this a Ryder Cup, and I love the passion and the spirit that you personally have for the Ryder Cup. I mean, you almost look like you're having an out of body experience and you love it so much. If you had to wrap it up, you know, why is it so damn special,

Rory McIlroy 28:30 

you're playing for a purpose bigger than yourself. That's why it's so special. You're playing for your teammates, you're playing for your captain, your vice captains, you're playing for us, for the Europeans, you're playing for a continent, right? You're, you're playing for a lot of different people, which is a much different experience than what golfers usually do week in week out when we're really just playing for ourselves, or maybe for you know, our team or a family or whatever it is. So I think having that purpose that's beyond yourself is a huge motivator. And then I also think you know, the Ryder Cup is the one competition that I think that I've learned more about leadership than anything else, you know, being responsible for being that sort of talisman for the European team and trying to lead by example and trying to set the tone and trying to bring the rookies along when I can and you just all that is I love that stuff. I you know, the Ryder Cup is, you know, I've played in seven of them. I wish I really hope I plan seven more. I don't know if seven is achievable, but it is it's the best experience you can have as a professional golfer, it's it's amazing. Absolutely amazing.

David Novak 29:42 

If you are the leader of the team, or certainly one of the key leaders of the team and no question about that, but you weren't isolator on it. You started out as a rookie, you know, what's it been like to transition in that experience from being a team player individual contributors to now where You kind of assume that leadership mantle,

Rory McIlroy 30:01 

I had great examples along the way. You know, whenever I was a rookie, there was some great leaders in that team that had played in a lot of Ryder cups. And I, I learned by their example, and you know, that was a big thing for me. So, yeah, as I said, Before, you need, you need mentors, you need, you need people to guide you along the way. And I was very lucky to be a part of a European team that, that had some of those people on it and had the experience so that I could learn from them a little bit. And then when it was my turn to step into that leadership role, you know, I was maybe a little a little more ready than I would have been if I didn't have their example.

David Novak 30:38 

You know, speaking of leadership, Luke, Donald seemed to be the ideal captain for the European team, you know, what did you learn from him that you'll take forward when you become captain? Because you will be a captain someday? For sure. I mean, what would you say would be the single biggest thing that you'd want to take forward from what he did?

Rory McIlroy 30:58 

The one thing about look was his demeanor, his tone, just his whole attitude throughout the week never change? You could have looked at look that week. And you wouldn't have known if we were five points up, or if we were five points down. And I think that's the sort of, you know, steady, you know, sort of rock like leadership that, you know, if you're a team, and you're looking at your captain, and he looks like that all the time. Like that just gives you so much confidence that like he, whether he thinks he knows what he's doing. But he looked like he knew what he was doing, right? You know, he was he just had this air of complete confidence, and comfort. And every time a player looked at look in Rome, they just got the sense that no matter what happens, this guy has got everything under control. And that is, you know, to have a leader like that is amazing.

David Novak 31:54 

Yeah, I really loved watching Luke, and actually, myself, I loved how he gave his opening speech in Italian. And I loved reading about Ali did all these things in your team room to showcase your family and, and the history of the Ryder Cup, which really pumped all you guys up? What I'd like to do now is really shift gears. And I mean, in a big time way, you know, and I think you might find this a real strange one. But but explain to me, how do you use juggling to make you a better golfer,

Rory McIlroy 32:26 

who was explained to me was juggling is a very good way to sort of activate the gray matter in your brain. So it's almost like you get into this trance like meditative state. But also having this sort of focus at the same time and doing something with like your motor skills, I think juggling, there's a lot that goes on in your brain, and it activates a lot of different parts of your brain. And that was the reason that it was suggested to me that I should take up juggling,

David Novak 32:53 

are you pretty good at it?

Rory McIlroy 32:54 

I'm pretty good at it. Yeah, I've gotten pretty good, where I still, I can't quite get five, I can do three and I can do four. And what do you juggle just juggling balls, or golf balls, or, you know, whatever, I haven't went to knives or our fire or anything like that. You can do it for a couple of minutes. I feel like it resets your mental state a little bit. Now

David Novak 33:17 

explain to me why you try to keep your mouth closed during high pressure situations.

Rory McIlroy 33:22 

Yeah, I'm very much a mouth breather. This is just the curiosity of me. And I've read a lot of books. And I honestly think I had some real issues when I was in 2017 2018. And I think some of it was to do with the fact that I breathe through my mouth and not through my nose. So I, I breathe very high up, you know, it was all in my chest, it was all where you know, breathing through your nose, you got to expand your diaphragm and you actually breathe properly. Like if you look at a little bitty breathing, you know, their belly goes up and die and not their chest. So I just I almost needed to retrain myself on how to how to breathe properly. And then what happens when you breathe properly is your nervous system starts to relax. So it's very, it's much easier to tap into your parasympathetic system. So fight or flight basically. And on the golf course, you want to be as calm and as level headed as you possibly can be. So one of the things that I do is when I walk between shots, I just try to keep my mouth closed unless I'm talking to hiree or whatever it is, but you know if I can just remember to breathe through my nose on the golf course. I just know that helps my mental state of my nervous system so much.

David Novak 34:37 

I'm going to try them before I give my next big speech.

Koula Callahan 34:46 

Hey, everyone, it's cooler co host of three more questions and I have some exciting news to share with you. We just launched a breakthrough app that will help you become a better leader in less than two minutes a day. It's called how leaders lead As you know, on the podcast, David spends about an hour each week interviewing some of the top leaders in the world. But we know that leaders like yourself are pressed for time. So we've taken the very best clips from these conversations and put them into an easy to use mobile app that you can learn from and less than two minutes a day. If you want to become a better leader, start a daily leadership habit with the how leaders lead app. It's available now for free and the App Store. Download it today.

Rory McIlroy 35:35 

I've heard you say

David Novak 35:36 

your love for golf is unconditional. How have you Rory Have you sustain that level of passion for so many years now, in spite of the high highs and the low lows, I

Rory McIlroy 35:49 

would say because I love the game. I love the game of golf, and I play it competitively. And because I play competitively you have wins and losses. You've good days, you've got bad days. But I love the game. I love going over to Seminole playing with my dad. I think that's the reason I think if you find anyone who is truly you're great at what they do, and they're passionate about what they do, it's because they have a they just have this innate love for it. I mean, I you know, I've loved the game ever since I knew how to walk. And I don't think it's just because I'm a competitive golfer, and I don't think I'll ever lose that. Because I don't you know, I don't see it as a job. I see it as a, you know, I get to play this game that I love. Sometimes they pay me for it's great. So that, to me is the and also, I also think that the game of golf has been so good to me and so good to my family, the opportunities the game of golf has given us. And I think just being grateful for that, you know, because I could have picked another sport, or I could have picked another profession. But I chose golf and I loved golf and golf has has loved me back. And you know, that's that's awesome.

David Novak 37:00 

Roy, was there ever a time where you you lost some of that passion? And and if so, what did you do to get it back? It

Rory McIlroy 37:07 

was the summer of 2005 16 years old, my dad would drive me to all these different tournaments around Ireland. And we were coming back from the Mullen gar scratch cup that I had just won wide won this tournament. And it was you know, it was great. But I remember driving back in the car, and I said to my dad, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. All my friends are off school and they're going and doing whatever. And I feel like I'm missing it and all this stuff. I just want to tournament I'm not happy, you know, all typical teenager stuff that you know, the emotions that you go through. So my dad said, Fine, take a few days off, see how you feel, knowing full well that when I take a few days off, I couldn't wait to get back to the golf course. He knew me so well. He's like, whatever you want to do your mother and I will support whatever you want to do. If that means that you you know, you need to focus more on your schoolwork. That's, you know, if you're not going to play golf, that's something you're gonna have to do. But he said, take a few days off, you know, take a week off and see how you feel. And I think I lasted three days, and then I was laid off. So it didn't last long. And then during my professional career, there's been times where I know that I've needed a break or I've needed a rest. But I've never fallen out of love with the game.

David Novak 38:22 

Laura, there's been so much fun. I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? Ready? All right, three words that best describe you. Happy,

Rory McIlroy 38:31 

driven, compassionate. If

David Novak 38:35 

you could be one person besides yourself for a day, who would it be? That's curry, your biggest pet peeve?

Rory McIlroy 38:42 

People talking over you in a conversation who

David Novak 38:45 

would play you in a movie?

Rory McIlroy 38:49 

Badass like

David Novak 38:53 

imagine it's the final round of a big tournament. You're on the 18th hole. A par four. And you need a birdie to win it. But someone else has to hit your shots for you. Who's hitting the drive.

Rory McIlroy 39:08 

Ludvig a Berg?

David Novak 39:09 

Who's hitting the approach shot.

Rory McIlroy 39:11 

Justin Thomas, who's putting Danny McCarthy

David Novak 39:14 

what's the number of hold ones you've made? I have made

Rory McIlroy 39:19 

12

David Novak 39:22 

your most memorable golf shot.

Rory McIlroy 39:24 

Probably about three would have Valhalla on Sunday during the PGA.

David Novak 39:28 

Oh, nice little Eagle you made their big guy was something you'd only know about Northern Ireland if you'd been there. And

Rory McIlroy 39:37 

my opinion that people are some of the best people in the world. If

David Novak 39:41 

I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear?

Rory McIlroy 39:46 

Hip Hop usually

David Novak 39:49 

was something about you that few people would know.

Rory McIlroy 39:51 

I'm a big watch collector and I'm a big wine collector. Those are probably they're my two big interest. So I decided go

David Novak 39:59 

and is your most meaningful tournament victory.

Rory McIlroy 40:02 

It's either left field, but the 2013 Australian Open. I have had the worst season of my professional career in 2013. I just had to change the equipment, I sort of really struggled to make the switch. I had an awful year I didn't have a win didn't play well. And I went down to Australia. And I played with Adam Scott all four days, he was the reigning masters champion. And I ended up beating him on the on the 72nd green. And that was just of all the trophies that I that I have at home that Stonehaven Cup, the Australian Open trophy is it's meaningful, because I feel like it got me back on track to then go and have the great year in 2014 that I did and go on to win two majors that year. So that Australian Open will always hold a special place in my heart.

David Novak 40:50 

I would have never guessed that way. That's fantastic. You know, just a few more questions, and I'll let you get back to work. You know, analytics are like everything today on almost every field, how do you use analytics to determine what you need to get better at? Or do you? Yeah, I

Rory McIlroy 41:07 

do. I work with a stats analyst. And he sent me a deck this week on Valhalla, you know what you need to do there to play well, and you know, okay, well, you need to focus on, you know, between 150. And 175 is a big area of focus. And you have to focus on putting between 18 and 24 feet. And you have to do this or so. And the good thing with golf now is we have all this data available to us. So through the shot link system that the PGA Tour uses, and then through the track man that you know, we use every day on the driving range. And so I think the numbers thing for me, the numbers of the strokes, game numbers as well on tour are so good, because you can see how you're doing compared to the rest of the field. And it's not just the old stats, we're okay greens and regulation, or you're driving accuracy. And that didn't really tell you a story of well, how does that match up with everyone else that's playing that week. So the strokes gain system is, it's a great way to measure yourself against the rest of your competition, and it breaks it down into strokes gained driving, strokes gained approach, strokes gained around the green, so chipping, pitching, bunker play, and strokes gain padding. So you know, through those four areas, you can see what you're deficient that and then you can break it down even further and be like okay, well, my strokes gained approach isn't good. But okay, the reason is, is because I'm really lacking between 125 and 150. So I'm gonna go work on my yardage is between 125 and 150. So you can really, you can get into the nitty gritty of it, which I think is I'm always a proponent of more more knowledge, more information, you can choose to do whatever you want with that information. But I, I always think that more more information is better. Right? One

David Novak 42:49 

of the things that I've been impressed by is how you give back talk about that aspect of your life. My

Rory McIlroy 42:54 

attitude towards charity and philanthropy is. So the way I tried to describe it is I'm very lucky that there hasn't really been anything in my life that has, like from a health wise from a family member or someone else that's made a huge impact on me. So, to me, I've always resonated with children. I love children, I love spending time around children. So I've always tried to help either disadvantaged children at home or children that have cancer, you know, I've done a lot with the Cancer Fund for Children in Northern Ireland, which is a great charity that has built respite centers for children with cancer, but also their families because, you know, taking care of a child with cancer, that's a huge burden for a family and they need a place to go to be able to recharge and rewind and try to feel like a sense of normality. So I've done a lot of work with them, and they do some great work. And that's been amazing and unbelievably fulfilling to feel like you're making a difference in people's lives. So but yeah, for me, it's, you know, if I can help children, disadvantaged children, children that are born into, you know, undesirable situations, you know, if I can do that through my platform, and through financial aid that I can provide, then that's a wonderful way, you know, I feel to give back. You know,

David Novak 44:15 

that's great. And speaking of children, what have you learned about leadership, being a father to Poppy,

Rory McIlroy 44:19 

so a lot of responsibility. I think you want your, you know, I feel everyone has a responsibility to, to make sure their child grows up in a really positive, nurturing environment, where they're able to express themselves freely. That's been my whole thing. I think Poppy has turned into, you know, she's quite a strong willed little girl, which is a great thing. You know, she knows what she wants. She's not afraid to tell you, which I think is great. In this day and age, it's, you know, the more of that the better. So, but, you know, as a parent, there's a big responsibility to, to provide an environment that is safe, that is nurturing and Um, you know, I think we've done that so much. And yeah, it's a thrill. It's a thrill to see her grow up and turn into the little person she's turning into and the personality and you know, the things that she says and the activities that she does, she's, she's a great little swimmer, she's into music, she loves singing, she loves dancing, she's got a little piano, a little guitar, you know, she's into all of that. So that's been unbelievably fulfilling, and just to watch her grow into, grow into this little girl that has their own mind and personality and knows what she likes. It's, it's really cool. You know,

David Novak 45:36 

given all you've accomplished already, right? What do you see as your unfinished business?

Rory McIlroy 45:40 

At the start of the podcast, when you said, I set my stall out early about wanting to be the number one player in the world when I was seven, I also finished that free as was on I want to win all the majors. And I haven't won all the majors, I've gotten pretty close. But I think that's my unfinished business. I think if I, you know, I've got you know, I'm still a pretty young man just turned 35 A couple of days ago. But if I, if I think about it, I probably got a good 10 or 12 opportunities left that at Augusta amongst all the other majors. And, you know, I think that's the only unfinished business I have in the game. And whether I finished that business or not, that's up to me, and what I end my career with a slight tinge of regret, probably, but at the same time, the game of golf has been unbelievable to me. And you know, if that were to happen, wonderful, but if not, I would leave or I would walk away from the game, being unbelievably fulfilled with what I've been able to achieve. Do

David Novak 46:38 

you ever feel like, you want something so bad that it makes it hard to do it?

Rory McIlroy 46:42 

Yeah, you gotta let go, you gotta let go. That's been the big key for me is, the harder you try, the harder it is to achieve. So you got to let it happen. You got to, you know, relax, try to treat it like just any other. It's hard. If you're going to give a big speech, or you're going to, you know, whatever it is, you it's, you have to be in the right mindset. I've definitely gotten myself in the right mindset at Augusta. But some years, someone just plays better. And that's, you know, again, that's the hard thing about golf tournaments is, you know, you're not just competing against the golf course, you're competing against the 100 other guys, and, you know, one of those guys that we could could just have the week of their life and that sport, and that's, you know, you go and you try your best and, and that's all you can do. There's

David Novak 47:24 

no doubt in my mind where you are going to have a week of your life at Augusta someday. And who knows, you might just repeat as the champion here at Valhalla. And wow, what a thrill that would be for everybody to see you as the repeat winner. What's one piece of advice we'll wrap this up that you'd give to someone who wants to be a better leader? The

Rory McIlroy 47:44 

one piece of advice, to be a better leader is to be able to see things from others perspective. I think that's a great way to be able to lead to be able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see the world through their eyes. Try to find some sort of compromise. I think that's leadership right there. It's being able to recognize, you know what, you know, but you also know what you don't know you we always said the in the European team and the Ryder Cup, leaving your ego at the door and taking feedback and taking advice and being open to that, to me is sort of leadership one on one. Well,

David Novak 48:23 

I think you could give a masterclass in golf, right. And as you evolve into a leader in business, you're working on a master class across all fronts. And I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be with me today. The one thing I have to tell you though, is that I still haven't gotten over the fact that I'm one of the few guys that's ever lost with you as a partner and losing to Harry diamond and your dad does now on the 17th hold Seminole does not sit well with me. We got to get a rematch someday. Absolutely.

Rory McIlroy 48:53 

We will. I know I know Seminole is pretty much closed or it's closing for the summer. So whenever whenever the season starts back up again. We'll get that organized. Awesome, buddy.

David Novak 49:03 

Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Rory McIlroy 49:05 

Pleasure thank you

David Novak 49:20 

I gotta tell you I'll never forget watching Rory hit that gorgeous three wood on Valhalla is tenfold back in 2014. It was crucial to his win that day, and I can't wait to see him make more memorable shots like that this weekend. He's a special player and I'm sure you'll agree after this conversation, a special leader to you know, every single leader faces tough situations where the people in the room just don't see eye to eye. Sometimes lines get drawn in the sand. People dig in their heels and it gets really hard to find common ground and move forward. I love Roy's insight here about keeping an open mind in those situations. You got to see things from the other person's perspective. And you've got to be able to be open enough to let your position evolve and grow as you get more information. To me, that's a sign of incredible maturity and strength and confidence in yourself. And as a leader, it's a must have skill if you want to navigate tricky decisions. Because you know what? The world does change, information changes that takes you to a different position. This week, ask yourself, is there a position you've taken in your business that you need to revisit? What new information Have you gotten that might change your position? Like Roy said, being able to change your mind is a good thing in the kind of mature thinking it takes to lead Well, provided you change your mind for all the good reasons? So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders keep an open mind. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Steve squarey, the Chairman and CEO of American Express,

Speaker 1 51:02 

I think so many people so many times just focus on what they're good at. And don't want to look in that mirror and say, Hey, this is where I'm not so good. And I can use to develop a little bit more.

David Novak 51:12 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be