You can have great ideas if you don't execute, you won't succeed. So we say execution is a discipline of getting things done. Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learnings of the body into the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, welcome to the 200th episode of How Leaders Lead. I'm so grateful for your support of this show. I learn a lot talking to these leaders week in and week out and I hope you do too. You're the reason we've made it to this milestone and you're the reason we're going to keep on going. And this week our guest is Ram Sharan. He's a renowned business consultant and author whose books have sold over 4 million copies. Fortune Magazine calls him the most influential consultant alive and is easy to understand why when you listen to this episode. He knows how to get right to the heart of an issue and as you'll hear today, it starts by asking really smart questions. Asking incisive questions is a superpower of every great leader and I know it's going to spark big growth and change for you. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Ram Sharan. You know, Fortune Magazine has called you the most influential consultant alive . That's high praise. What process do you use when you take on a new assignment? Yeah, so David, the way it happens to me is that people call me. I don't call them. I have never made a cold call. And so when they call me, there is a fundamental rule of life. You try to help somebody. To help somebody try to find out what is somebody's challenge or somebody's problem. So I don't have a prepared solution and say, here is my solution. What's your problem? I like to find out what is your problem or challenge that if I see if I can help you solve, I'm in. If I get, I won't waste your time. How do you go about cutting through the complexity that is in so many of the problems and businesses that are out there so that you get at the core of a business problem? Yeah, see what happens and you've done it many, many times yourself that over a period of roughly 50 years, I've been doing that in almost all industries. And so you start with learning, asking what's on the mind of the client or the team and start looking at from different angles until you are able to grab hold what the problem of the challenge is. In many cases, it is not the same what I have been told and what we actually get to. You know, the late Jack Welch, who is I know a friend of yours and a friend of mine as well, he said you have the rare ability to distill meaningful from the meaningless. Can you give us a story of when you've done that? Yeah, I think he's been kind, the key point that all of the most CEOs, they're able to crystallize what to focus and how to operationalize. Now, the one of the things I did, I don't know why I did it. I was teaching at Northwestern in the master's program and I was a number one teacher in the school. So I decided to get my class to write the strategy of a company in one page and I will personally grade it. And they love that because they were forced to crystallize what the real issue is where to focus not to focus. And that has helped me quite a bit in my career after that. So one day, I was asked by AT&T to design a program and this is 1978. And so the lower level people took me to the chairman and the chairman heard the pitch by the lower level people that took me with them. And then the chairman asked why don't you put this in one page. So I took a page out of my satchel and says, sir, this is one page, maybe it will reflect what you're looking for. He did and signed it right on the spot. Program approved. That's a great story. You know, it takes leadership to get CEOs and companies to see the world, the way how it really is versus how they want it to be. You're brought in as a consultant because people are struggling doing that many , many times. You know, how do you get people to confront reality? There is no specific formula that I can get you. But you can start number of ways and you have to work with the individual. You can start first from the individual. What is the anxiety, if any? What is the overconfidence, if any? And what is happening recently, recently mean around the time I'm talking to somebody, that what is the change in the external environment? What is happening to the performance, his or her company or competitors company or new technologies coming in? So we have to put some facts in front and see what is happening. And often, I'm able to predict what is likely to come in two to three years to be able to see what's really likely to come. And the idea here is that people want to do the right thing, but they have to be shown sometimes because all of us, including myself, have blind sites. So if we can cover and open up the blind sites, then you are able to show what the reality is. I'll give you an example. So I'm sitting with an executive from the telecom companies like Verizon, AT&T and Quest and so on. So he's a friend, so we have dinner. So discussion moved and I said to him, why should your industry be allowed to survive? I didn't say your company and that took a big pause. Now that question opened up other questions in his mind. I said the industry will not be allowed to survive. And so what would you do if I were right in doing that? And then we talked about why it will not be allowed to survive. How important is it that leaders learn how to ask that incisive question? Well, there's one thing data questions in my work with the boards, almost 100 boards now across the globe. This is one of the most critical qualities that directors have. They have this incisive questions. I actually measure them. They have less than 15 words in their question. They say, I'm a researcher. So I said, I want to see what are these incisive questions? How long are they? Less than 15 words. I said, that's a real great director who either opens your eyes or be able to create convergence of ideas or be able to bring some insight that nobody has. How do you go about changing the mindset and companies to make big important changes? Because when you're brought in, people are languishing many, many times and they've got to make a big move if they are going to survive? I need to see who is or who one or two people who are really in power without whom you're not going to change anything. I work with them to see what's coming. So I have one, I've got a couple of examples in my life where I have got them to reverse their decisions and that includes Jack Welch. I had him to reverse the decision. I blurted out and I said, Jack, you're dead wrong. Blurted out. And he listened and he said, you come to the office, this, this, this, this, this. Then I called him every week for 26 weeks. Call me back and say, I changed my mind. Thank you. The purpose was he trusted me. Purpose was I could talk to him very clearly. If you have that relationship and you're not worried about your next assignment or next call, you've got to have your integrity to tell. Absolutely. And, and, Ron, when, when you find that change is necessary, what, what's the first step in getting a team back on track? Well, the key point is who's the team captain? This is the leadership of team. And if the leadership is not with it or inadequate, then we're going to get the team back on track. And then you've got to focus on what's the burning platform? You know, a lot of teams get paralyzed. They can't really take action to get them moving in direction. How important is it taking just that first step without even really knowing what the end solution is? We cannot ignore the captain. A large part of the issue is the captain of the team. And, you know, many of these staff people who never run anything in their lives, they were great, brilliant people become CEOs. I go and pick up their chestnuts . They're not leaders. There's nothing leadership bone in them. They're intellectually very good. I've always said, show me a good business and I'll show you a good leader. But I won't. Yeah, there you go. You won't see a great business have sustainable results for very long without that super leader or good leader. You know, you've got to go to the leader. When you look back, Raman, your career, what do you think was the most impact ful consulting role you've ever had? Look, I was with G 40 years. How do I qualify that? 40. Do part 35 years. 80 and T long time, Verizon long time. So most of my assignments have been minimum 10 years longer. Across the globe, not just America, because you continue to service be helpful to them. And so some of them be more impactful. Some of them are not. Depends on how do you define the impact or saving a company in China from bankruptcy. I'm on the board is the Chinese company. And they actually hence them. They rewarded me for that. Because I saved them from bankruptcy. I was able to see it coming. And so sat down and worked through the whole thing and preempted that happening . So depends. How do you define the most impactful one that I would classify is if I'm involved, am I having this right successor to a successful CEO? That's impactful. You talk about the importance of being able to look out two and three years and see where a business is really going to have that kind of pressure to say talent. Is there a process you use to get to that point where you can say to somebody, you know, in three years, you know, I think the financial industry will look like this or three years, the automobile industry will look like this . You do it yourself too. We look at, I look at and I miss them quite a bit is what are the changes emanating today that will cause a structural change. So when I look at China, I'm very clear that a large number of companies from the West will be made to exit. I've no doubt about that. Not all of them. But a larger more than we may took set. And it doesn't matter whether President Xi is the president or somebody else comes in his job. When I look at the whole internal anatomy of CCP, it become very clear to me. And so I have now companies, large companies that I'm advising them to start ph asing out later will be more expensive. You know, you've seen so many CEOs in your roles over the years consulting with hundreds of companies and boards. What attributes do you think separates the really good ones from the not so hot? Yeah, I think I was very lucky David to reframe that. And I've written about it . And that is, it's not the best. It's not an a player. It's not the hot guy. It is the fit between the person and the company situation as a plus. So as you know, I do a lot of interviews recruiting CEOs and I tell them ahead of time that I owe you equally as I owe the company that if this is a bad fit, you will suffer most than the company will. I tell them exactly where the mismatch is, in my opinion. And I even tell them this job is not for you. There's nothing wrong with you. So the match between the person's gift experience and so on and so on. And what the company needs. If there's a good fit, there is going to be a good thing coming out. So I have seen very great successful guy from a large company, growth guy, very poor. Goes to another company after retirement in a turnaround and he miserably fails . He knows the industry. So the match was not there. So it is the fit between the two that we have to figure out what's really happening. You know, a lot of leaders get caught on their back foot when people on their team leave, people in the company leave. How do you think leaders at all levels should be thinking about bench? Yeah. So what I'm saying, and I've been doing in India in a very, very, very large company, that the talent before the strategy, I've been writing people before the strategy. Why people determine strategy? And so Jack Welsh is the only one I've known. Others may be doing it. I don't know. Here in a calendar year, fiscal year, he did the talent first in February March , a strategy second in July period. Everybody did the opposite way. So the talent is the engine what you have. And therefore, you need to consider in a company that we need to personalize talent, building talent development. We now have personalization of consumer, customer. We got to do personalization of the talent and nurture it, know it. And we have to cut a lot of bureaucratic steps out. If a person is ready, we have to be preemptive in moving up or moving laterally or moving up in a diagonal way. So this is beginning. It has been very poor in most companies. You were very, very, very emphatic on talent. And so was the previous Pepsi of Pepsi. He was very, very, very strong. So was Roger King, very, very strong in the talent side of it. What have you learned about scaling up big ideas fast? You know, when you find that idea as a leader, what have you learned about scaling it? Well, first thing I like what Jack Walsh used to do, he will do one idea at a time, not two, until it goes into the DRA. So he had nine ideas and 19 years. Very clear. Very clearly articulated. Got his CEC, the executive committee, and he will then get the various business units to assign people to carry that out. He will have a Crotonwell training program. He will know the team. He will put 40% of the incentive of the year on that team or the business unit manager. And in January, he will show ranking who is ahead, who is behind, which way is it? When he got convinced, this is really got an insight, then he will take the second initiative. It did nine of them in 19 years. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Ram Shahran in just a moment. Ram co-wrote his bestseller, "Execution with My Good Friend Larry Bossy, the former CEO of Honeywell." Let me tell you, Larry knows a lot about getting things done, including the fact that strategy doesn't count for much unless you put structure around it. And I tried to reduce strategy to something that we could be sure to do. Every time I went to a business and a strategy session, I had a people session the same day. Do we have the people to execute the strategy without that, the debt and arrival? And secondly, as I said, we had an invasive people process where we evaluated the top 200 people in the company. And then we spent a lot of time in operations, not only in the budget preparation, but on the execution of the budget. And the more time I spent in those three things, on the people, the strategy, and the operations, the better we got, go back and listen to my entire conversation with Larry, Episode 79 here on Howl Eaters Lead. I want to shift gears here for a second with you, Ram, and I want to take you back. What's the story from your childhood that really shaped the kind of leader you are today? Well, the key thing here is for me, I'm not really a leader. I'm an individual contributor. I could have been, Larry Bassey told me when I was writing the book with him. He said, "What are you doing writing here? You should have been running a company here because you got to know me better the way I think about things." So I'm not a leader in their sense. But here, what shaped me is I was about 10 years of age, and we have a shoe shop. My brothers ran it. I could not be taken off the shop, go to school, come on the shop, do my homework and sell to the customers. So I learned the basics of business on the shoe shop. I used to do the pricing inventory at the age of 10. These are the same fundamental principles that apply to every business. I learned the concept of velocity of capital at the age of 10. So I go to the Harvard Business School within the first week, and a teacher taught me something there to all of a sudden, I said, "My God, I learned that at the age of 10." And I'm paying $7,000 in tuition fee in 1963. But I said, "Well, I have there more to it, obviously." So my business side of it shaped in my shoe shop. That's a great story. And you say you're an individual contributor, and you are . But you happen to be the leading individual contributor, maybe in the world, in the area of consulting. And you have to use leadership skills to be as successful as you are, because you don't have all the power. How do you use indirect leadership skills or influential skills? I did not know that I began this at the age of, I'll give you an example. I think I was 24 or 25. And Harvard, I was doing MBA. At the end of first year, you go summer work. So I got a job in a small public utility in Honolulu. And it's a small company. And the president's wife picked me up at the airport, taking me to a very nice dinner. And Mr. McAnlis said, "You got a report to me directly starting tomorrow." So he said, "Initially, he wanted me to report to a planning guy." So he said, "Look, spend a week's nose around what you can find." I did. And so easy access. I went to same. I said, "Makaela, sir, I have a feeling that you will not make dividend this year. This is month of May." So he calls the CFO. He said, "Lamb, this is what Rann is saying." And Lamb said, "Yes, he's right. We won't be able to make it." And so he excused him. He said, "What do you want to do?" And I said, "Well, I want to spend three or four nights at the plant." He picked up the phone, called a Chinese guy from the plant. He came running up. His name was Richard Lu. He said, "Richard, look after this man with your life. Doesn't get hurt. Feed him whatever he wants, etc. So I spent three nights until four o'clock in the morning. My mother was just came here for me to save the CEO in another industry. And so I came back and I said, "Mr. Makaela, we should lower the pressures between 10pm and 4am. And I would like you to take the distribution manager and plant manager together for lunch." And he told them to lower it or it would fire you both. That's what he did. They lowered the pressures. They made the dividend. So finding the problem and solving it. Do you remember that aha moment where you said, "You know what? I do want to be an individual contributor. I want to be a consultant." Okay. You know, first thing is that when I was doing master's degree, I got a note from the doctor program that I have been automatically admitted. You don't have to apply and there will be a scholarship because I was in the top 3% of the class officially. Some people thought I was number one. That doesn't matter. And so I finished the doctor degree in two years. And so I got a job in Saudi Arabia to be executive VP of a company run by a gentleman whose father was at that time the physician to the king. And then I decided because the dean called me up and said, "You should stay at the school and teach and do the five years morally obligatory service of teaching." And I said, "I'll do that." And then I never left academics. So to speak. And you've ended up, you never really wanted to write a book, but you've written over 30 business and leadership books, sold over 4 million copies. And one of your books is one of my favorites. It's called "Execution." And you wrote it alongside somebody I admire very deeply, Larry Bossy. And it's been three years on the New York Times bestseller list. You know, what 's the key idea in that book that every leader should apply? Yeah, I think the most critical idea and everybody knows it. They don't do it. It's 10,000 years old. You can have great ideas. If you don't execute, you won't succeed. Now, so we say execution is a discipline of getting things done. It is the discipline, personal discipline, and then your routines of reviews, organization structure, talent, how they link together. That's the central idea that Bossy has, Jack Welsh had, and a few others followed it. Now, every company has that routine these days, but they are not that disciplined. You know, I suppose when you write all these books, they're almost like your babies. And so this next question is probably impossible for you to answer. But if you could pick one of your books that you think every leader must read or should read, what would it be? If you want to learn about business, what the CEO wants you to know, Jack Welsh wrote me a note. He said, in such a little book, you describe the essence of business acumen. I compare him with a street hocker. And I'm saying, there are so many sales people, so many technical people, so many team leaders who don't understand business in detail. This is it. And this I wrote for that purpose. Let me tell you how this book came about. In the middle 90s, I was teaching at Ford, very early assignment. The CEO walked in, who is Australian in Lebanese. Last 15 minutes he said it. You know, when you're teaching a class and the CEO walks in, something happens to the class. And so when the class finishes, he puts his arm around me and says, I want this book. I said, Sir, what book? He said, what you were teaching? I said, I don't write books. So he calls his chr from a distance. David come here, who is also Australian. Get him to write the book, give him everything he wants and walk away. That's how I wrote the first book. That was the first book. And it sounds like it's your favorite. He did. Big face. It's a close friend to this day. You know, I've heard you say that the most important thing in your life is learning every day. Do you have some kind of daily ritual for this or how do you go about it? I fail, but I search for new ideas, new things, new incidents, new events. I do same things that everybody else does. Water Street, general New York Times, economists, financial times. It's all there. A lot of coverage. A lot of coverage. You know, I'm sure as a leader, you've had to evolve yourself over years. I know you say you're not a leader, but I'm going to take issue with that. I do think that you're okay. You know, what's the biggest personal insight you've ever had? And how did you evolve as a individual contributor or leader? How ever you wanted to find yourself? I don't know. I had no goals. I still don't. No ambitions. I still don't. I've been trained in Sanskrit with Sanskrit values. I've observed them, except for food and alcohol. I'm strictly Hindu on that basis. And he said, do your best what you have. And then I learned that early in the days that learning is the only one that will keep you happy. You know, you've had so much success and you've helped so many other companies and leaders achieve success. When you look back, you have a something that you said, this is something that was my epic fail or this is something that just, you know, I should have done differently. There are no more of them David, you know, no human being is perfect. Not only that, if they are perfect, they don't admit what you have done wrong. And we do wrong. In the selection of people, you make a mistake. I did. In making recommendations, it is just no wrong. Or I failed to prevent somebody doing something. And so I give you one where I think it turned out to be okay. So a board member called me up and said, we want you to go to St. Louis and coach the CEO. So I went to see him. It turns out to be a gentleman from Pakistan. So I speak the same dialect, exact same dialect. And so listen to the whole thing, worked all the around four o'clock. I said to him, maybe you should resign. I'm gone there to coach. I'm telling him maybe you should resign. I've restarted the reasons for it. And then it occurred to me, I said, you know , the actual word for wife is behem. So I said to him, I said, why don't you bring behem out here? Which is abnormal in Muslim culture, you don't do that. So he brought his wife there. I said the same thing and she burst lasso. Which is totally unusual to us. In front of a stranger, you don't do that. And so he did resign next morning. Fast forward. Two years ago, I called him to my office. He said to my secretary, you don't know me. My name is so and so. Just give him the phone number and he'll call me. He said, you made my life. I'm very happy. You made the right decision. It's fantastic. Put the phone down. You do those things that are unusual. That's a great story. This has been so much fun and I want to have some more. I always do a lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Yeah. All right. What's one word others would use to best describe you? Learner. What would you say is the one word that best describes you? I would say that total dedication to the work, no personalized. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be and why? See, I always wanted to meet Margaret Thatcher. Because I liked the way she had the courage, turn a nation around. And she had a wit. I would like to be that kind of a person. What's something about India? You'd only know if you live there. I think the India, if you go to the majority of population, it is the deep, deep, fantastic values in the villages. What's something you wish you would have learned earlier in your life? A lot of things. Indian popular music. Who would play you in a movie? Oh, movie. Okay. Well, I think I would have picked Marlon Brando. I see a little bit of a resemblance here. That's a good one. If I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear? If I would, I would be looking for the Indian music. All right. So that's the end of my lightning round. I just have a few more questions. I'll let you go. You've been named the Global Indian of the Year by Economic Times. What did that mean to you? See, what they do, they do this every year. People who are successful, and they are truly operating in multiple countries, which I am. I have bored in China, 50 companies in China, Brazil, China, the 3G family. Obviously in the United States, Australia, Canada, Japan. So that is the part that you multiple countries, and hopefully you take the broader global viewpoint when you see the perspectives. Ram, how do you merge spirituality in business? That's me. That's exactly the Hindu culture from villages. And here, there are simple things. No greed. There have been times in the client shop when somebody wanted the assignment, and I gladly gave it to them. I say, yeah, you want it more? You take it. That's very different. Every single book I have written, the other person's name goes first, even though he's not a CEO. I say, you deserve more. You want more. It's okay. My spiritual side doesn't demand that. How have you developed such a selfless character? No, that's a cultural given. You get trained only because I have been trained at the age of 10. We come with nothing and we go out of nothing. I live with that philosophy. I can die today and no regrets. When you look at the rest of your life, what do you see as your unfinished business, Ram? Nothing. I never said there is a business to be finished. It is to continue, be happy, be healthy, principles of spirituality and integrity. I have been trained to live on almost nothing. I am entrained. So, living is nothing. It is what you do, what you can contribute. You do that. You're such a great communicator. You can articulate your points of views very clearly. One-on-one. You can write books. You're a speaker. What advice can you give leaders on how to develop great communication skills? David, I've been doing that for some of the leaders who were nobodies and became CEOs. This is real, real incredible. I didn't know what I was doing, but I picked them up very early. They became CEOs, one of America's largest companies, until they became CEO, I remained with them. The answer is in sports. You must practice, practice, practice, practice. So, I'm now developing for a company in India that they want people to be CEOs of divisions, businesses. So, I'm now putting it together, how to be a practicing CEO of a business unit. Why can't we do that for a business unit, CEOs, that we do in sports? We can. Last question for you, Ram. What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who wants to be a better leader? Other than the integrity and trust, they are all known. Everybody knows that. Your success is dependent on only three items. The first one is people. You cannot succeed without people. Second, learning. And third, deliver results. That's as simple as one, two, three right there. Very, very good. I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on this podcast and to share your wisdom with others. I always learn a lot every time I read your books or I'm around you. In my mind, you're an outstanding leader because you're a thought leader in every respect and you use your influence skills to get other people's move. And you know how to take people with you. Thank you. Bye-bye. [silence] Well, Ram is proof positive that you don't have to be in charge of others to be a leader. He inspires people and takes them to a better place. And let me tell you, if you do that, you're a leader in my book. I'm sure you can apply some of Ram's principles in your own business. And certainly one of those is how good he is at asking incisive questions. When you ask better questions, you get better answers. And those insights can help you get to the heart of a problem. Try that this week as you interact with your teammates. Make your questions shorter and more focused and see how it impacts the answers you get. And if you want some bonus points, get your hands on a copy of Ram and Larry's book, "Execution, the Discipline of Getting Things Done." There's a reason it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for three years. It's one of those business books everybody should read. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders asking scisive questions. Coming up next on How Leaders Lead is Constance Swartz-Marini, co-founder and CEO of SMACK Entertainment. And let me tell you, she has some great stories about coach Prime, Michael Stra han, Aaron Andrews, Taylor Swift, and Snoop Dogg himself. And I know everybody hates the word authentic now. It's like what synergy was in the early 2000s. But if you look at a roster, if you look at the products that we build in launch, if you look at the shows we produce, the common theme is authenticity. Because once you can stay true to who you are and yourself, the success, the money, it comes. So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]