I do a lot of my own stuff and I do it because I feel like I could tell my story Better than anyone else can and it's gonna come across as being passionate that I really love my product And it really is better than anything else out there. I think that's what makes you a great salesperson I mean a lot of people say I'm intense, but it's really just passionate about the product Welcome to how leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode You'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader That's what this podcast is all about now if you want to get better at motivating or inspiring or convincing people Then you're in the right place because my guest today is Chris Rickabano now you might recognize Chris I'm sure you will from his commercials as the founder of untuck it the incredibly successful clothing brand known for making a dress shirt You don't have to tuck in they sold over 12 million shirts, but it hasn't been an easy road Chris tried a lot of other startup ideas before this one stuck and during the pandemic Untuck it really took a beating and they're still recovering from it as you'll hear it today But through it all Chris's passion never wavers and let me tell you passion is powerful When you let your belief in a product or an idea shine through People respond and that passion can keep you going in both the good times and the bad times Oh, and by the way, you're also gonna hear about Chris's latest brand I mean he is a serial entrepreneur And he started this brand with Derek Jeter and Misty Copeland and it's called Greatness wins and we'll get to that here in a bit But here's the big idea if you want to put your passion to work for your business and learn a lot about building great brands while you're at it Then you're going to love this conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours Chris Rickabano You know, I don't know how you've done it, but somehow you've convinced the good majority of the business world that wearing a shirt Untucked can still be professional now. Did this idea come from a personal habit of yours? This was that classic idea. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur so I was thinking of every dumb idea you can imagine I just wanted to get out of corporate America and I personally my one problem I had was that I couldn't find a shirt This is what I say in the commercial But I couldn't find a shirt that looked good untucked and it really was a problem They were all too long everyone I had one out of spec shirt from J crew and I wore it over and over again I was in Las Vegas I remember and I'd go to put on the new shirt and I go right back to the old one And I started asking my buddies and everyone would have this incredible response It's passionate response about having the same issue But of course you always think that there's a reason why it hadn't been done So you never think as someone who's not in clothing that you can just start a clothing brand So I kind of just never did anything about it until one day. I got even more desperate to try something new and I began the process Well desperation leads to big ideas and that's one of them that that has certainly been a success You know, it's interesting I was talking to this tailor who has his own business and He says that you know, he actually makes shirts now that you can wear regularly or wear untucked I bet you have all kinds of competition now because you've come up with this idea. How big of an issue is that for you? 2019 every single it was actually a great moment as an entrepreneur It was a little bit painful But when you realize that every single fashion brand led their campaign with shirts meant to be worn untucked You know the vineyard vines of the world which are known to be tucked in and oversized had a section in their store That was shirts meant to be worn out Banana Republic J crew huge signs and that's kind of continued But the good news is we had developed such a strong brand by then that people call untucked shirts Untuckets just like they call a tissue of Kleenex or Xerox So I think it got a lot of our customers We would get emails from customers who are annoyed about these people copying us and to be honest with you You'll laugh at this, but it sounds very simple to do But it isn't because to get that right length over and over again You need to have this hundred percent quality control at your factory Otherwise if it's a little long it looks like any other shirt and if it's a little short you can't wear it So, you know, I still think we have a differentiated product Well, the one thing you have is you have a great brand name untucked It just tells you exactly what it is and you obviously have got your shirts just geared for that Benefit that you deliver so well give us a snapshot of the brand that you have today and the business model for untuck it Well, it has been a roller coaster ride because if you think about it, I'm now at about 55% of my time pre-covid and about 45% post-covid and that changed everything in my world You know covid ran into high inflation huge interest rates So we're still impacted by it today in 2019 we had open 90 stores in two years and We didn't do wholesale intentionally. We loved owning the customer data. We were the most talked about men's brand out there We had gone into England. We were in Canada. We had gone from I think 140 million 195 million and we had 15 letter of intense coming in on February 27th 2020 for north of 700 million So it worked, you know the blueprint worked and we were ahead and fast-forward to three months later We were essentially going to declare bankruptcy and it was completely out of our control as you remember so we took on all this debt to get through and Interest rates went from 8% to 13% so now we're paying and so I Answer this question in that it's just been one thing to navigate after another and then all the competition came in obviously So we just had to find ways through it, you know cash strapped at times Consumers looking for sales the dynamics changed So I don't know if I answered your specific question, but I can tell you it's just the last four years have been completely Different from the first six years and all the things that you have to manage and think about when you're running a retail brand So covid basically just you know not the win from your sales and were you not able to pivot to digital in a successful way? People thought that that would be easy. They just sell online. It wasn't the fact that our stores were closed It was the fact that everyone was wearing athleisure Everyone moved their money into athletic and athleisure brands and they weren't wearing a button-down shirt People wear our shirts doing all different types of things. They wear them to work. They wear them to dinner. They wear them on vacation They don't weren't doing any of that stuff over covid. So luckily we still listen We did still did quite a bit of revenue, but it was done through our polos and our t-shirts and our henleys That was the main problem that until people got back living their lives They weren't gonna buy their 10 on tuck-it shirts for that year It was tough and the bigger problem was we had to take on debt to get through, you know, the pandemic You know, we had never really raised money. We had raised $8 million by the time in 2019 most brands our size had raised, you know 150 to 200 million But our marketing message was so powerful that we would just have great returns But then when covid hit you needed cash because you needed to last so And then going right in no people don't realize it goes right in people talk about the economy being great as a stock market The fact is you know people are spending 10 dollars for a coffee And to buy 105 dollars shirt is tough. So it's been a roller coaster ride. Now the good thing is our brand is so strong Uh, we have such a great repeat business and people love the company. So we're able to still succeed, but it's been a challenge I saw where you actually extended your brand where you had not only have a full line for men But you also have it for women. I mean that that had to be a big brand decision I mean, how did you how did you make that decision and how's that doing? That was an easy decision because it was done because 60 percent of women, you know Shopping our stores for their husbands and they were always in there You know whether their husband was with them trying on stuff and they'd say what you have nothing for me to look at here You have no women's and We have great quality product. We have great customer service So when people are on the site and that's how we expand into all these other products You know our pants and our polos and our shorts and our bathing suits and the list goes on is because The consumer is already in the store or he's already online and it's easier just to buy from the same brand So women they they buy shirts for their husbands or their boyfriends and then they go buy product for them It's doing well It's about 10 percent of our business and you know I think there's a huge upside there in the future as we we get out of this these last four years and start to grow Well, that makes so much sense the logic you had to really bring women into the fold But you know one of the things that I would imagine be a challenge You know particularly in the economy that we're in the consumers being stressed . You really got to chase the volume You're chasing revenue. I mean, how do you how do you decide what segments you can really go into and still protect your brand? That's hard in general when you say because it's the discounting in the sales that's making it challenging because we were the consumer forced us there in COVID right you needed cash Everyone was on sale during that period of time even brands that never were on sale. So you had to do it Then you come out of COVID and we want to go back to the way we used to be we had very few sales for the first six years Um, but then the environment changes and even if you're a company that doesn't want to do sales and typically doesn't have to If you're seven closest competitors are on sale every week You're going to lose customers if you don't do something you're just kind of forced in there So that's another thing that's just gone on it went from COVID into these High interest rate high inflationary periods where now our competitors are doing sales So we're forced having sales and it is that give and take you have to you can't we don't want to be a company that's on sale all the time So you have to be willing on certain weekends Let's say or certain periods of time to pull back on sales, which might decrease the revenue But over time we think will be better for the brand Um in the long road and that's just a fine balance and if you're having cash issues and all these different things play into that You know, chris i can't wait to talk more about your your journey at untucket and also about your new brand Greatness wins, but first I want to take you back. What's the story from your childhood? That shaped the kind of leader you are today? You know, I was a I always go back to and sometimes maybe I think I I give it too much credit But I played tennis growing up in individual sport. I played in college I think that shaped a lot of who I am In general just the things you learn that maybe you don't even realize you're learning the resilience the hardworking the dedication You're kind of out there alone. You know, I I'm an entrepreneur. It's funny when I think about leadership I was actually thinking about this a little bit before the conversation And I think an entrepreneur who's a leader is a different Leader than a leader who came up through corporate america Because a leader who came up from corporate america They go through this process where there a lot of times are doing leadership programs. They're learning they're being built to be a leader An entrepreneur. It's kind of funny. You're becoming entrepreneur. You're going by yourself, right? The first three years of my journey. I wasn't a leader. I was I was alone, you know Away from everyone else including my family at times, you know trying to do something which everyone's telling me i'm crazy for doing And it's funny. You're not public speaking You're not doing any of the things that all of a sudden once you achieve success and you have six seven hundred people Reporting to you and you have to be out there and you have to be doing all these things that you never had to worry about when you were building the brand So I think you become a different type of leader And I think it all ties back to when you're an entrepreneur your a few things. I think should be assumed you're hardworking You are dedicated and you are resilient because there are I always say it's two steps back one step forward every day that I You know turn on my computer. There's more problems than good and that's across all industries Some reason you feel it more as an entrepreneur. You know they always talk about an entrepreneur being a lonely lonely life So I do think to answer your question. I think that playing tennis competitive ly Taught me what I considered to be the two, you know the hustle hardworking resilient and that helped me Take the risk to go out and become an entrepreneur When did you first decide you wanted to start your own business? When did that thought or that dream come into your head? I went to my first interview in in Providence college and the guy stopped the interview because you could hear my heart beating And I realized oh my gosh. I don't like corporate america. I don't know what it was. I just got scared by that whole corporate america Put on a suit shave go into work. So I said I have to find a way to work for myself So what I did was I went and I got a sales job strategic everyone was going into finance I said if I go into finance, I'm not gonna have time to work on different ideas So I got a sales job and instead of selling I would work on my ideas And I would build relationships that allowed me to sell and still keep my job at the company Um, so I always kind of had a plan now the problem is I was getting older and older And you know, I had not had kids. I was not married Which is a lot easier to be an entrepreneur when that's not the case And I was trying some terrible ideas I mean ideas that went went absolutely nowhere and that you know, you would laugh at if you heard them Well, let's hear one of them This is an embarrassing one, but I always tell it because it it actually would have been successful But um There was and this is before these dating sites, but it was called love for little people l for lp.com Now Now this is before there were all of these, you know sites out there And there was one show on tv And I forget the name of the family that followed, you know, a little people around and and we got on the phone with this guy And he thought it was a great idea And then something happened in his in his world and it never got going But that's the kind of things I was thinking that it was whatever I could do, you know I was It's very hard to come up with an idea And even by the way, making a shorter shirt wouldn't be much different than el fer Like when I went to try to raise money for my father's friends for a shorter shirt I mean, I thought I think they thought I was crazy Do you really gonna launch a business and making a shorter shirt? Like what are you doing Chris? Like just go back and work Yeah Well, when you have this, you know, all these people are calling you crazy, right? And you start this business and it's a lonely way to start because you're the only believer at the beginning What was it that you had inside of you that could keep going? It's amazing when you have no fallback Depressor and I think it really helps you succeed I was working at g health care selling medical equipment And I was ruining every relationship I had there because I was spending these guys would call me lazy They would bother me so much because I was meanwhile working 18 hours a day on on tuck it And they thought I would never go to the go get drinks afterwards I would never do anything to improve my standing in general electric And it was because I was putting so much effort into on tuck it And I remember each morning in hobo can I get a I'd walk the dunk and don't to get a coffee and on the way there I had this pain in my chest and I said if this doesn't work I'm done. I'm gonna be 35 years old have burned bridges I'm gonna be you know, who knows what job I'm gonna get And that was a fear I mean I would wake up in the middle of the night because I'm I'm trying to sell a shorter shirt You know at the end of the day And we had a really rough start. We don't I do not know how to make clothes I was wandering the fashion district The first shipment of shirts we ever got I undid the button And I done did the second one and I took another shirt and I did the same thing And they forgot to tie the buttons every single shirt the buttons fell off So I shipped the shirts with a note that said the buttons are gonna fall off. We'll replace them I mean we had no money. I didn't know what else there's nothing else I could do You know and then I remember I would spend I would iron shirts because we were packaging packaging them so I'd come home to a hundred shirts I would I I'd be ironing for four hours Just like an ironing lady, you know, just ironing my shirts hanging the ones that smell like smoke out outside So I can get another so it was I love it. I forget what your original question was but wait You're basically saying that you had no out, you know, this is it No out So it had to succeed So you didn't come from the fashion industry You can't send out these shirts with no but that the buttons won't stay on for long I mean, how do you build your know-how so that you could start making quality products and and make the smartest decisions and in a very very Competitive category What we knew we had was an idea and the reason was even though we were selling terrible shirts Even though we had no money and even though we weren't marketing we were doing some PR Anyone who who will go to our site would send us personal emails paragraphs I've been wanting to do this you're saving me this and that like and we're like this is crazy the passion these people have for a shirt So we just have to get it right. So I found a guy Named the oran who was who was a true fashion guy like he knew how to make shirts now One point I will make and I think is as a general point to entrepreneurs in any new industry I'm successful because me and my partner did things differently than what was done in fashion And we were doing things differently because we weren't fashion guys and the amount of times we'd have people come in who were 10 Year j crew people or whatever they may be and would say you can't do it this way This is not the way and we'd say well it should be done this way There's so that was actually a benefit But I did need someone to help me make a great shirt and we brought in someone who connected us to all the great factories We started making a great product and in 2015 we had about $30,000 left in the bank account We're making a great shirt now, but no one knew about us. So we said let's try to market So we called up the local radio station boomer and carton sports radio They said listen you're gonna need about 200 grand and just so you know, it's gonna take a few months That's the way marketing works and we said we have three weeks and we have 20 grand This is all we can do so just run the commercial and it was this shirts designed You know, you ever have a problem, you know, finding a shirt to look in unt ucked and within five minutes There's 4,000 people on a site and this is off of a radio read No one markets on radio with fashion. You got to see the product, but it worked and so then we went to airline magazines You're the only brand we were an airline magazine outside of a watch or perfume company spent 15 made 45 and And the rest is history. We just started ramping it up and then it resonated with people You know, you do a great job in your commercials. You're in all your commercials. Now. Why is that? You know, what made you do that? Two best decisions ever made one was naming the company on tuckett, which everyone said was a terrible idea and I can tell you a hundred Percent we wouldn't be where we are today if it wasn't named on tuckett. Number two was This first commercial we ran which ad week actually just wrote an article on it like 10 years later So we had no money. We couldn't hire people to write a commercial. So he said, let's just try to I want to tell my story why i'm so passionate about these shirts to see if other people have this same problem And there's no better way to do it than let me just tell you it right? Let me just we have no budget for a commercial We had 50 grand so me and my partner wrote the script and it ended up i don't know if you've ever seen this one i'm walking down in soho and It became the most dramatic commercial not by just it just somehow got there where the the music in the beginning You think you're watching a pharmaceutical drug commercial on some major cancer disease And then it's me walking dead serious because they said Walk like you would walk to work and i'm always thinking and i'm not smiling And I look kind of unhappy and i'm saying my problem is I couldn't find a shirt So i'm all these problems in the world and here i am talking about my problem being i couldn't find a shirt meant to be one untucked You go on twitter the first day it runs and there's death threats I mean this guy should be dead someone's this is a horrible guy is only problem I'm thinking they don't thought they realized that i'm just trying to sell a shirt And when it played in the background you'd go and you look and you say what is this guy doing? He's really this passionate about a shirt and that commercial did to this day Anytime we make a new commercial it does 10 times better. I think we've overd one it now We've overrun it and that we're pulling it for good You know chris you are one intense guy. You know you say you don't smile You know you're smiling now because i guess you're looking back at this it is kind of funny But you are intense you've attacked the business with a incredible daily intensity that that I can see You know, how do you manage that intensity? I mean, how do you keep it in check ? I like to say passionate because it's funny you'll laugh at this story the first time I i'll tell you this story later if there's time but In my journey to get Derek jeter for greatness wins. I remember his accountant who's this nice guy who lives in Michigan He called me separately and he was trying to say it in nice way. He goes, you know, you're like a bull in a china shop I was like, Dave. I'm a nice guy. I just get when I get on the phone I get or when I get on the zoom calls and i'm telling you why we should do this I just get passionate Listen, it's hard not to when you're when it's your own brand You know you're thinking about it every second of the day and I you know you just want to Be successful. So like i'm if you talk to my employees and we talk about leadership They think i'm very quiet like when I go into the office. I'm i'm subtle. I'm not someone who Who's barking out orders? I just like to lead by my passion. They see how much I care about this business Um, which really defines my life if you think about it. I mean i'm 45. I started in 31 Anyone who sees me i'm known as untucket right in the untucket like it's kind of odd that untucket this strange Concept defines my life. So it is important to me But I think from a leadership just tying back everything to being a leader This is not the way I talk to my team. In fact, sometimes I wish I did It's more about how when i'm talking about the brand, you know, then and i'm talking about What it takes for us to be successful as a brand. I get fired up a little bit And you are chris a hell of a brand builder and you say that And I quote this is you say you need a hook if you don't have a story to tell it. You're not going to survive You know, you've talked a little bit about this, but can you unpack that belief or for me a little bit more? Yeah, there's just so many entrepreneurs who come to me and they pitch their whole idea and it's really like they say i'm going to make a better You know hat and it's out there. I'm going to make a better couch. I'm gonna Well, how are you gonna make it better? Well, it's just gonna be better, you know, the fabric's gonna be better the well That's everyone does that and everyone says they do it. You need a real you need You need to solve a problem And if you're not solving a problem, you need to convince the customer that they have a problem that they didn't have You know, I always laugh I have a lot of customers who will come up to me and say you've convinced me now that I do need a shorter shirt Even though I don't think I need a shorter shirt, but now i'm starting to think I do When you go through instagram at night if you type in on tuckett today by tomorrow, you're gonna get followed by 25 different brands They're all gonna look nice. They're all gonna have nice looking models If you don't have something in there That differentiates you you might be a 25 million dollar brand you might be a But eventually you're gonna reach a plateau and you're gonna need to spend so much money on marketing to continue You're gonna realize you need to be profitable. You're pulling it down. You're gonna disappear you need to build the brand and That's real differentiator on tucking why we're still here and so many people aren't is we became a brand It's the most important thing And you need the customer to feel like you need the product not just want the product You know when you were a GE you were in sales and I'd argue you're you're still in in sales even today You know, what do you wish more leaders knew about the art of selling that could really help them regardless of what industry they happen to be in? You know for me my success in selling at general electric was just relationships I was always a big believer that relationships as long as you have a good product of course you need the product then to be the best It's all about relationships My job now selling is a little bit. It's like more of a selling marketing role You know, I got to I still like you mentioned I do a lot of my even for greatness wins now I do a lot of my own stuff and I do it because I feel like I could tell my story Better than anyone else can and it's gonna come across as being passionate that I really love my product And it really is better than anything else out there. I think that's what makes you a great salesperson I mean, it's like you said, I mean it doesn't take long for people to realize You know a lot of people say I'm intense, but it's really just passionate about the product And when I'm out there marketing on instagram You know, most people will put in models or the higher actors for their brand It's not because I want to be the face of the brand or I want to be everywhere It's really not the reason it's because I just feel like I'm going to Convent you if I can tell you why Untuck it makes the best shirt or greatness wins makes the best workout apparel If you give me a minute, I'm going to convince you that it's different and that it really is worth trying And I just think it's more believable when it's coming from the person who created it Now when you're an entrepreneur, you quickly realized that you can't be a one- man band I mean you have to build your people capability you talked about how you brought in the quality expert that helped you At untuck it when you think about, you know hiring people and you look back What was the biggest hiring mistake you've made is as you were learning how to bring in the right people Well, the first thing for an entrepreneur is willing you got to pull back a little bit You know because you want to touch everything. I mean at one point I was the head designer at untuck it I'm not a designer. I don't know anything about designing and it even got to the point that that I didn't stop doing that until a few years ago where I wanted to see every single thing we made And I used to laugh because I'd be like I'm not even a designer like I just like what I like And what I like might not be what other people like so I have to relinquish control That's a problem that all entrepreneurs have is relinquishing control because you got to give What these these people are experts in their area my merchant my planner my head of ecom My customer retention team their experts. I'm just an entrepreneur learning. I learned all this on the fly So I think that's you know the first thing is that you have to trust and you have to bring in some really key hires I have a great team that the thing that's interesting about my journey is We were the first second third. I don't want to say first we weren't the first but we were In 2011 there was no one else really selling direct to consumer clothing other than bonobos Which is a brand that I think warby parker had just come on board Everything was new everyone was learning. So my team that's been with me for a while They're cutting edge. They were there before any they've learned and we all learned like no one knew How many emails you should be sending out? You know what kind of imagery should you have? All of these things that now feel like it's the norm How much money should you spend on facebook? Should you mark it on facebook or tv or you know all this was new with e commerce and which is brand new So I have a lot of experts who a lot of these companies built their platforms around Untuck its feedback as to what we were seeing out there and all this new technology has come out in the last 12 years Stores and how to work which stores any commerce that's brand new said last you know, it's 14 years ago You know, I don't have any hires that that I remember, you know, I think you said, you know a bad hire I do have a lot of great hires and For me to hire you you have to have a hint of entrepreneurialism in you because I can't have someone coming in the company As you're growing it and only doing what you're trained for I need you to come in and it's all hands-on deck if you find other ways that you can move the needle and you're a merchant I want to hear about it And that's the entrepreneurial mentality as someone who like me who had to learn finance marketing all these different things So I want my employee a lot of corporate jobs You hired a person for just what they're supposed to be doing And on tuck it I want to hire someone who can add value in other areas, you know as well We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with chris rickabano in just a moment You know chris mentions the eyewear company warby parker as another brand that found early success in the direct to consumer space I love talking to their co-ceos Dave gilboa and neil bloomenthal about the incredible focus they've developed in order to turn that initial success into a lasting brand I think we found is that um you know regardless of how a big company gets regardless of how many employees and how much capital is available That focus is so critical to success And so we heard early on that strategies what you say no to that's something that you know We've really taken to heart and often you know council other entrepreneurs other founders to yeah really define who you are and Maintain ruthless focus just on that and say no to everything else Go back and listen to my entire conversation with david neil episode 181 here on how leaders lead This business was just skyrocketing you get all these bids in north of 700 million dollars, you know Then covet hits you almost go bankrupt you mentioned, you know When your business tanks like that How did you manage your mental state? How did you stay positive? I mean What was it that you did to to work yourself through that kind of adversity? I can't say it wasn't hard because first of all it's never been and by the way There's millions of people who went through what I went through millions So I don't want to tell the sob story, but what we didn't have was a blueprint You'd wake up I'd put on the news every morning the today show funny enough and the today show because I wanted to see what what was their spirits? Were they down were they depressed were they negative and then I could say where we're you know How far away were we from getting through this the problem is no one knew the answer that covet might be around forever Might be around forever might go away might so i'm sitting here saying My dad always has this saying that he says this two shall pass he goes this two shall pass son You know how that sort of is but in this case we didn't know if this was passing And then I was like there's no one I can't call my dad and my dad say it's gonna be okay, right? No, no or call a business leader and that business leader I remember I used to get on the phone with a guy named rich handler who's the CEO of jeffries And I would call him and he was just so helpful during this time because i was like I don't know what to do And you couldn't do anything right there was nothing you can do it say There was this phrase going around which I love could control the controllables It was incredible. I was watching this thing that I built and did everything right and I don't say that arrogantly Everything was done right. It was ready to sell. I had quote unquote made it. I brought it from start to finish And now it was going bankrupt I mean I remember getting on the phone with the bankruptcy attorney and he goes guys. This is why bankruptcy is there It's for companies like you you have 80 million dollars in accounts payable You have 70 million in debt and you're not selling a lot of product You got to give I said what does it mean if you go bankrupt? Well, it means you no longer are part of untucket and you no longer get a salary because they're gonna walk you out the door That feeling I didn't tell my family just on a side note because I couldn't get myself too because I didn't want to worry about me But it was crazy. I mean it was really you call your partner. We always had a solution You know one of these things there's always a solution. There was not a solution here You know what I mean? There we couldn't sell the product and it was terrible now. We said we can't go bankrupt That's number one. I don't care what we got to do So we started reaching out to all the factories and all the different people and they believed in us They believed in our brand. They believed that we were going to be the perfect brand post-covid And they all they all hung with us, you know, we got all this brought all his debt on so we survived Listen, it's never been seen before I remember this is used to be interesting You go to sell the business the first thing they say is what what happens in a downturn? You guys survive and you'd always say listen a recession of course we survive people need shirts Yeah, we might take a 10 hit a 15 hit That was worst case in the old is a recession, right? That's worst case scenario Now worst case scenarios. We're gonna close your 90 stores and no one's leaving their house I still look back on this thing. It's just hard to understand Forever this is gonna impact on tuckett is like I said it then drove to us having a lot of debt Add in another problem interest rates go from 8 to 13 percent if interest rates rated 18 percent, but cobit happened I'd have a lot of cash right now instead It went to 8 to 13 percent on all this debt. We couldn't refinance because no one can refinance so it's one You stop me. Is this a joke? This has to be a joke like this is crazy. Here we are Year four and even though we were profitable we turned significantly not significantly profitable We did 16 million dollars in ebay. There's not a lot of companies doing that in our space most are losing money We pulled our marketing down 30 million dollars and still grew and we're profitable problem is our cash flow is not because we're paying 15 or 6 to whatever the number is Ininterest so i'm still going through it now believe it or not. I love your honesty Chris I mean sometimes it's a bitch and that's basically what you're saying and you 're working your way through it And I love it, you know, but it makes the story better. Yeah, that's what kept me going I literally said that's okay I said one day I will be on a podcast or write a book or whatever it's gonna be And when I do eventually sell this thing and what a bet maybe a movie because what a better This four year period just makes the story More interesting. Yeah, and that's what i'm telling myself I think Netflix is going to listen to this podcast and you're going to be making a movie You know, hey, you know Wayne griskey as I understand it was one of your investors in in untucket You know and he famously has that line you you need to skate to where the the puck is going How are you thinking about the evolution of untucket to make the full rebound to have this success story that you're you're looking for? It's a great point because originally we didn't have to do anything but make a shirt design if you want untucked That's what we were we had first mover advantage. It got us to where we needed to be now four years later There's been too much time a lot of new brands have come in So we have to rely on all these other great things that we have about untucket, which is our 100% quality control We have an incredible high quality product. We have an incredible customer service team. So We are now expanding, you know, we're for the first time we're marketing We have we do you know 80 90 million dollars in non button-down shirts. No one knows that right That's a business that we don't market at all and we still do that level of volume So we're going to market that the exciting thing about untucket is we have zero wholesale zero There is no brand doing our volume that doesn't have a significant portion of wholesale We're going to start to go into wholesale. We just went into big and tall dx cell They're having incredible sell-throughs with us at their stores so they're expanding to all 200 International expanse and we're opening in Mexico City stores. We want to open another 80 stores No one's opening stores almost all of ours are profitable We have ai data that we use to make sure we don't pull people from one store to the other We're going to open up another 80 to 90 stores. We'll have 175 stores. They're running very efficiently They pay back in six months. There's so much we can do, you know We just have to solve our our cast problems and and we'll be off to the races because we still have a product that people love You know Greske is also the co-founder and your latest venture greatness wins, you know What's the big idea for this business and and why did you start this brand? This is really the case is I had time over the pandemic and I was thinking about what other industry can I disrupt? Where else do I have problems, you know in the apparel industry and the true story is over covid I was wearing athletic brands to work out, but the quality just wasn't there It wasn't great quality the specs were all over the place it didn't last and it didn't have a great modern fit Then the athleisure brands I would wear to go out, you know If I had to pick up coffee or I was going to be seen and those have an incredible modern fit Which all the young athletes love but it wasn't designed with performance first in mind It wasn't made to think of as a workout product So I thought we need a higher end athletic product that looks great and performs So I start making calls to the athletes, you know, I was friends with true breeze He's also an investor on tuck it and Wayne and and a few other athletes and then eventually Derek And I said guys do you see this problem? I bought 400 Pairs of Nike shorts of Adidas and I measured everyone took all the measurements down They were all over the place one was eight inches one was four inch same size. I said there's a problem here There's quality. I love quality. That's quality and consistency of specifications So I said there's a problem now. That's not enough of a reason to start. How else can I differentiate this? Let me bring on some great athletes. Let's tell an athlete story Let's tell the you know on tuck it founder story. Let's tell so now I have all these reasons that when I'm competing That can differentiate me So after months of trying to convince jeter I got him hooked and we launched uh 18 months ago Wow, you know, how did you come up with the name greatness wins? So that's funny. I called darit. You say that name Derek jeter one of his reasons I called him. He said I'm not doing this doesn't excite me. I said well, how can I excite? He's like well, I just don't like the name greatness wins. That's one thing So what do you mean? You don't like the name greatness wins? I said he said it just sounds a little arrogant He's like I don't want to think like I'm great and therefore I win and I said it's nothing to do with that This is about teaching young kids, you know that greatness does win But I said the bigger reason is I said and Derek this is this is one area you got to trust me on Is that the name is really important? I want a name that people say what is that name? I want you to know when you're at a cocktail party and they say greatness wins You're going to immediately remember it at home You're going to say what is greatness wins and why'd you name the company greatness wins? You know, we're in golf stops now people walking into golf sub you see greatness wins if they saw like Some name that I'm going to go over to it first thing they do is google it. What is greatness wins? So that was another move that was kind of playing off the on tuck it I wanted a name that got people annoyed at the name or didn't like it or liked it or And now most people like the name, you know, it's it's an odd name. It's not a name It's a description, right? But I love it when I heard it Brad Richards is another one of your investors Gave me some greatness wins apparel. I love the name because Isn't that what we all want? I mean, it's like you're wearing your badge right there You can get excited about it, right? Yeah, I thought it was a great name I loved it. You know and you you've partnered with uh, greske, darik jeter, br ad richards, misti copeland You know on this greatness wins, rind. What have you learned from working with such high profile athletes? Well, the guys you name though, I mean, they're not only Incredible athletes. They're just incredible people off the field. They do not mean you think about brad in his days You know, it's do you just did it differently than these other young athletes do it now? I'm there. I'm telling me chris. I don't unless we're winning I don't post unless we're talking about different than that's the same thing with darik They're just humble guys and that there's a reason why they've been so successful in the off field stuff as much as on field So they just teach me how to carry yourself. It's you know the way they You cannot say that about a lot of athletes. I mean misti copeland's another just amazing human being You know wane is no longer bob a greatness wins for a variety of reasons But he is just such a genuine great guy, you know, he used to check in on unt ucket You know, you need help These are guys who care and these are guys who want to succeed like brads helping me a lot in the golf world I mean he wants this to be successful. So I just got lucky drew breeze same thing just loves entrepreneurialism That's not the case. I feel like a lot with the younger generation But these are some of the the great guys on and off the field So, you know as I understand these leaders they love the brand they're also very involved They're more than just branded ambassadors I mean do you do you have a process that you use to keep them in sync with where you want to take the business or Do you just go with your gut? I mean is this something that you have to even think about? You have to be like Derek So when Derek I offered him an equity deal that wasn't very high because I said you I just need to use you a little bit Well, we'll say you're a founder, you know, he goes. I'm not doing that he's like I want to be really involved They're so sure you do so I was like you know I thought he was doing it just to get the equity up, you know, I want to be involved Before you know it. I mean he's calling me all the time like complaining about little things that you would never know You know the fabric on the women's sports bra like Derek you're really you know and that's great Like he cares. He wants to be he you know, we touch base weekly any major decision He needs to be involved in he's creating this Golf short right now that feels like a workout short that he likes to play in and he's real So it's great. He is really involved in the bit I mean he is a founder and that's really important that that comes across because Misty and Derek are founders We are on the board. We talk regularly. Derek was one of the most successful Nike off-field athletes ever He knows products. He's very passionate about the materials So I think that's a really important thing to come across to the consumer that he's not his name is just not on the on it Just to be on it, you know, you mentioned these guys are leaders. They know how to carry themselves You know What do you think distinguishes you as a leader that gives you the confidence you need to win in such competitive categories? I've always had this confidence and I and I'm very Clear to say not arrogance confidence. I just I was never the smartest guy in the room You know, it's just never was I was never I was a hustler. I just was never the guy who was um I don't know I had to say it, but I was I would openly know that I was never going to be the smartest guy in the room So how was I going to become successful with all these other guys? And it was just the confidence that if I worked harder than anyone How could I not succeed? And that's always my advice to people who feel the same and a lot of people don 't want to admit that they're not smartest person in the room But I was always very open about it, but I would always say but I'm gonna out work you and I'm going to find a way to be successful I'm going to scratch and claw. So one other thing to add You need a lot of luck in life like that's anyone who says that you don't you need all these things Combining because you could do everything right and not succeed like happen during covid You need luck. You need to be right place right time You need to appreciate that luck and accept it because that's just the way it is. So So yeah, I just think hard work resilience and a little bit of luck You know because listen if I launched on tuck it today, who knows where it would be I happened to launch it back then And now chris you do have these two amazing brands on tuck it greatness wins. How do you prioritize between the two? That's gotta be hard Yeah, it's it's just working extra. I always say this to whoever you know, I'm talking to if it's a greatness wins team or Untuck it. It's just I'm still working the same. I'm working a lot of hours I love doing it. It's the only thing I think about and I take my notes middle of the night You know stuff that comes out my mind and um, I'm always thinking about both brands and the funny thing is This is interesting the amount of things I learn about greatness wins that help untuck it You know because of the way I'm thinking about things differently Is incredible, you know or vice obviously on tuckets taught me everything I learned about greatness wins, but it works It also gives me a sense of what's happening in the market if there's a down period or an up period. So I work equally hard on both brands Obviously listen on tuckets my company that will determine my my future for now But i'm passionate about both brands and I spend you know a lot of time on both of them And you have investors in both brands. I mean, how did they feel about you going two ways? Well, that's a good question. Listen, I when I said to to my team and Elon Musk not that i'm Elon Musk I don't even want to compare my name his success But you can go on and on all these guys are on two three four working two three four companies You know the CEO of twitter the se or the founder of twitter the founder You can do other things if it's all if you're willing to work, you know You're 18 16 18 hours a day You can do other things Listen the amount of marketing that I do for greatness wins that I say i'm the founder of on tucket That's an ad for on tucket, right? So I get this question a lot obviously It sounds like you've got some rationale that works for you for sure. I don't know if it works for all your investors I was hoping it didn't bring that up That's just not the way it works You know so much of what entrepreneurs love is and you've you've really conveyed this in this conversation And I love the way I you attack your your business and you love trying to figure things out, you know majoring different uh specs and all this yourself, you know ironing shirts it's an amazing story and You know, but you continually learn what should be the biggest thing that you 've learned in the past year Oh gosh, there's so many things i'm learning here every year with this, you know, and I mean I hate to give a boring answer, but it's it goes back to You just can't control so much it's control the controllables I mean I know I learned that four years ago. I learned it three years ago. I learned it two years, you know, and here we are You know, now we have a crazy election going on. It's just it's never going to be easy It's never going to be perfect. The landscape's never going to be there. What is 2025 going to bring? Supposedly interest rates are coming down. You're going to have a new pre your app a new president either way But what's it going to be next year? So you can't Sit there and say and just say oh it'll get better next year You have to find ways to adapt to the business at that time like you asked about on t Can't blame the environment, right? You can't think the environment one day is going to be good because it's you know, yeah We had a great period and from 16 to 19 There weren't a lot of things happening outside, you know that they were impacting our business But they happen and you just got to adapt and you can't blame just got to control the controllables And I said it a few times now, but I think it's a great piece of advice You know, this has been so much fun, chris and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions Are you ready for this? Okay. All right. What three words best describe you? Resilient Dedicated passionate If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? I think I'd have to go with eric church like we talked about Up there playing What's your biggest pet peeve? It's people who don't have incredible attention to detail Who would play you in a movie? Oh gosh Maybe uh, maybe Bradley Cooper. I'd like to think Everybody would like to say that You play four years of division one tennis in college at providence So let's just say you play One set at the height of your skill level against carlos alcares at wimbledon. How many games would you win? Oh, yes I never had a great serve. That was my problem I don't want to be he's good. He's really good The fact that you actually have to think about that You know tells me how good you must have been You know, what's something you'd only know about? New jersey if you're a native new jersey and It's got incredible beaches and every you know, you're from the hand everyone h ampdens hampdens hampdens the jersey sure is beautiful place If I turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear? You'd hear eric church or kenny trezney. I'm going to introduce you to eric church. He's gonna love you Okay What's something about you a few people would know? Well, it depends who my friends would know stuff But maybe people in the business like you've said in this podcast a lot of people think that I'm Maybe a little rough around the edge is intense and like he called a bill in a china shop But i'm pretty quiet guy to be honest Um in my personal life. So I uh, I think I just get very excited when it comes to business What's one of your daily rituals something that you never miss Working out crazy about working out lifting and running Um is the only thing because I drink too much wine. So we're probably drinking wine too. I don't miss that often All right, that's the end of the lightning round good job bradley cooper You know, you have four kids Under six years old. What's something you've learned Leading brands that you've carried into to how you lead at home I just kind of teach my kids you always teach them that this stuff does not come easy the amount It's more than i'm just teaching them about this journey It's all this how hard light listen life's hard works hard and it's important that they know this You know, they see the shirts. They think i'm you know, make the greatest shirt They don't realize i'm always reminding them that this stuff does not come easy This is a battle and they're too young to really pick up on that stuff But i'll be sure to be telling them that this is it is hard and that you can't exaggerate everyone knows that I mean being a I always tell these young people when I graduate college. I don 't say it's as it is. This is gonna This is tough And I don't know if it's tough listening you probably have the same stories as a young guy and it was just different things But for the last five years it feels like I always say couldn't be tougher But I'm sure it was you've been through different stock market. So it's not easy That's the the lesson i'm trying to teach my kids and you got to work hard And I think business and as you move up everybody has their challenges for sure . What's your unfinished business, chris? I want to sell on tuck it. I was there It had happened, you know, and then it didn't and I want to build this I want to beat so that I never forget when kliner perkins who's a tech investor Invested in us. They said we're investing you even though we never invest in closing because we think that you could be the next great american brand I think of as the greatest american brand polo. Why because they served all ages kids grandparents Right now four generations will wear our shirt in one house. They send us pictures all the time I want to be a brand that's known forever. I want this brand to be here in 30 40 50 60 years and I really believe it will be and can be So I want to leave a real mark on the fashion industry And of course I want to sell the business not not because of the money It's not because I mean, listen making some money would be great But to me that's like completing what you set out to do. How could you sell your baby? It's a good question Listen the way my i'll i'll have a new one. I mean right now I have Two I have a new one kind of but i'll find another one that I then i'm passionate about and and listen It's been a long i'm not say it's been 14 years. I know it'll be another You know three to five to really get this thing I'm not selling this thing until we get it to where it should be which is a north of a billion dollar brand Which is what our goals always been so all right, you know last question here What's one piece of advice you give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? I'm just gonna stick with my theme that if your employees Don't see the passion That you have for the brand and don't see how hard you work and how much you care about the success of the brand And I used to be told that by my employees When I first started hiring them when I went to two to ten to twenty That they would get motivated just seeing how much it meant to me So I think that and that's in corporate america too. I've had many bosses in corporate america If you see how much they care they really care about the success You're naturally motivated and want to work for them more and harder Well, chris, uh, you obviously care and you obviously have a lot of irons in the fire and You know you you're building two great brands and it sounds like you have more ideas than that incubator Are yours and I want to thank you for taking the time to to share your thoughts on on leadership with me I appreciate it very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it I Now if you haven't seen it or if it's been a while you gotta go back and watch the original untucket commercial Just so you can see the look on chris's faces. He's walking down the streets of man at and check it out It's on youtube His intensity really shows but I hope you can see from this conversation That what looks like intensity is really just passion for his products and his business Now we all express our passion in different ways, but listen when you authent ically believe in something You gotta let it show It might be a product or an idea or an initiative, but your passion for it will get people on board And it'll help you navigate the ups and downs that come with it too So this week ask yourself what you're passionate about in your work right now How do you express that passion to the people around you? Take the time to do it and examine yourself So do you want to know how leaders lead what we learned today is the great leaders understand that passion is powerful Coming up next on how leaders lead i'm sitting down with john maki the co- founder and former ceo of whole foods It's a man who created a new category in that segment A lot of people won't like you when you're authentic And that's why most people aren't authentic because they're worried people won 't like them But the thing is the people that like you they really like you for who you are Not for who you're pretending to be So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the Very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode That you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be You You You You You You [ Silence ]