David Novak 0:03 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen. And while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today, we're going to talk about a book that I co authored with my friend Jason Goldsmith, a renowned sports performance coach for world class athletes. The book is available now wherever you buy books, and his titled take charge of you how self coaching can transform your life and career. Now, what makes this book different is you can obviously read this book from front to back. And I know you'll enjoy the stories that Jason and I tell. But the big differentiator is that we have great exercises and tools that you can use in this book to help you coach yourself to reach your full potential in your life and career. This is a book you can not only read, it's a book you can use again and again, to take yourself to new heights. Now, you know, I usually do these podcasts myself and ask all the questions, but I thought it'd be a lot of fun to let you hear from both Jason and I and have someone else interview us. So I asked my friend Donna Barton brothers to sit in and guide our conversation. Don is a former jockey and world renowned broadcaster for NBC. She's the one you see at the Kentucky Derby interviewing the winner on horseback riding backwards. That's pretty incredible. So we're off to the races. Let's not wait any longer. Here's a very fun conversation with two of my good friends. And soon to be yours gonna Barton brothers and Jason Goldsmith.

Donna Barton Brothers 1:49 

It's my pleasure to talk today with David Novak and Jason Goldsmith, the co authors of take charge of you. So why this book? Why now and you've written three books by yourself. This is one that you co authored with Jason. So first of all, how did that come about? That you all would co author a book?

David Novak 2:06 

Well, I think the first thing is, is that you really want to try to make the world a better place. That's really our personal missions. And, you know, one of the things we both learned, and there's a lot of research on this, that people are very frustrated in business and life that they don't have access to really good coaching, people are very frustrated at work that their boss isn't giving them what they need. And so Jason and I, we've been working together, you know, for a few years now. And we felt that we could really help people by given them the coaching or the process that they could use to coach themselves. You know, life is just too important to leave your life up to somebody else, you know, you need to take charge of it. And that's why we decided to come together.

Donna Barton Brothers 2:53 

Jason, we know about the process of coaching, we know about getting a coach and in fact, you've been a great coach. But tell me what does self coaching mean? So

Jason Goldsmith 3:01 

self coaching is really just about being aware of yourself and what your goals and ambitions are, and then having a process that allows you to achieve those goals. So, David, and I really felt like it was something that the world needed. And not enough people understand that self coaching is really so important, because there aren't enough good coaches out there for everybody to hire a coach like like David or myself. So if you can learn to self coach, then I think people will be able to achieve a lot more out of their lives.

Donna Barton Brothers 3:30 

One of the reasons why I found it really interesting is because David mentioned I was a jockey. And I think jockeys are one of the few professional athletes that don't have a coach most professional athletes do. And so my mantras sort of became how you do anything is how you do everything. Right. And so that's how I would sort of coach myself, but that's more of a pep talk. I'm guessing that this self coaching method goes a lot further than pep talks that you give yourself.

Jason Goldsmith 3:54 

Yeah, I mean, I would say that, when I first heard you say that about jockeys don't have coaches. Number one, I was really surprised because, you know, obviously I thought it's such, you know, a demanding sport, and you're out there and you're really having to manage this animal that's underneath you. You'd think that there would be jockeys from the past that would realize, hey, I have some insight here. I could share it with other jockeys. So to me, the fact that jockeys have had to self coach themselves all along is pretty amazing. But But to answer your question, I think where people, you know, don't realize is, you know, every day people are self coaching, I think where we help people in this book is, you know, teach them best practices to maybe then understand what their purpose is and how to get more out of their life. So I think, you know, when when you came up with that, saying that was a pep talk. Well, being a jockey and understanding that you have to have positive self talk a lot of the times To get your mindset, right, you know, that's one of the tools that we use in the book. So it's, it's having this understanding that there are a lot of things that all of us, you know, do, but we don't realize how important there are, when you have a negative thought, the most important thing you can do when you have that negative thought is to then, you know, reframe that, and then have some positive self talk that gets you back into this neutral state, when you're in that neutral state, then everything is possible. So I think, you know, you were using that tool, you just didn't know how powerful that tool was. Yeah,

David Novak 5:31 

yeah, I think that, why did Jason and I really come together here is that, you know, he, he brings a very unique vantage point, which is being a sports performance coach, and then I've coached a lot of business people. And so together, we thought we could do something that would be very unique. You know, there's tons of books on coaching. And so we really asked ourselves, what can we do, that will really be different, and make a big difference in other people's lives. And we both realize that even when you have a really good coach Donna, you know, you it comes back to you, you've got to put it into action. And we also both realize that the way how I coach people in business, and the way how he coached people in sports was very, very similar. So we thought, the real big thing that we could do is create a totally different concept, a new concept, which is called self coaching, and, and give people the process that they can use, if they don't have the means of having a coach, give them a process that they could follow a five step process that they could follow that would help them achieve their full potential as the self coach. And that's why we really made the subtitle, how self coaching can transform your life and career. David, can you

Donna Barton Brothers 6:53 

talk about ways that you've used the self coaching in your own life? Well, I

David Novak 6:58 

think you know, what's really interesting, Donna, I do all these podcasts with all these great CEOs and great sports leaders, and it's interesting, they all self coached. And it's that's another reason why we wrote the book, they naturally kind of go through what coaches would would do if they could teach him what to do, you know. And yeah, there's been a number of times when, you know, I've I've coached myself, just recently, I was looking at a new business opportunity. And I went through the process, well, I have three, what we call Joy builders. One is my family. Two is golf, I love to golf, but three is I really have a personal passion for leadership development. So somebody came to me with the business opportunity. And I say no to anything that doesn't fall in the area of leadership development. But this was one where we could help 6 million low income families get the help, they need to decide whether their kid should go into vocational school in college. So it was right up my alley. And I said, you know, I can have fun doing this. So I coached myself into saying yes, and you

Donna Barton Brothers 8:01 

had that sort of guiding paradigm. And you'd looked at it and said, yes, it fits into my paradigm, it fits

David Novak 8:06 

into what my purpose is what my joy is, you know, what is going to give me a lot of satisfaction. And you don't for me, one of the big things that I think unite, both Jason and I, as we're very other directed, you know, we we get our joy from helping other people. And but that's that's how I make my decisions. And it keeps me in the right lane. And I only end up doing things that I don't enjoy.

Donna Barton Brothers 8:33 

Yeah. Hey, Jason, in the book, one of the things that I really loved is the way you use the word yet, instead of ever, or never. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jason Goldsmith 8:41 

Sure. So you know, to me, everybody has these times where they're wanting to accomplish something. And for them, it's difficult to think that they can, you know, run that marathon, whatever it is, you know, hit that 150 yard shot a little bit closer, make that pot what you know, so whatever it is, when you haven't done something, you're very uncomfortable. So typically you create this story. And this story tends to limit your potential. So if you think about something that you really want to accomplish, and you say to yourself, I'm not sure I can do that, but then you just add the word yet to the end, it completely changes the energy. And so it's a way to reframe situations. And so, you know, I've used that for years and whenever I hear somebody make a negative statement, I always just say yet at the end

David Novak 9:33 

is so the way I look at it, you might not think you're a really good self coach. And I think I just said hey, yet you're not a self coach yet, you know, read this book and you'll learn how to be a great self coach and do what you want to do in life.

Donna Barton Brothers 9:48 

So one of the other takeaways from the book is a stat in there that you said Americans are starting new businesses now at a higher than ever rate. So it seems to me like this is really the best timing for this book. And David, you I've coached so many people who are in businesses, but people who are starting new businesses, I think can benefit from this more than most. Yeah.

David Novak 10:08 

You know, I love talking to all these people who have these startups and the founders of these, you know, embryonic companies, the thing that really is the biggest hurdle they often have to get over, is just making that leap, that I'm going to actually do this, okay. And I think what our book does, helps people make those personal leaps, get the transformational insights on their own performance and what they want to do in life that allow you to jump off that diving platform and make a few ripples. That's what I think is really exciting.

Donna Barton Brothers 10:44 

And beyond that, Jason, one of the other takeaways from the book is that in there, it says that According to a Gallup poll, 85% of people are dissatisfied with the position they're in because of their manager. And so if the manager is not coaching them, then if they follow these principles, in theory, they could stay in that same job and become more satisfied because of the coaching they're getting.

Jason Goldsmith 11:06 

Yeah, 100%, right, Donna, it's, it's so many people go to work every day, and aren't passionate about what they do, and they're not receiving the coaching they need, so that they can achieve the things that they want out of life. And that's what we hope this book does for people is, it's the nudge to get them to realize that they have that ability inside of what they need is just a few tools.

David Novak 11:28 

And it's not just being able to go the job and be your own coach, it's by learning to coach yourself, you can coach others. And when you build that capability, you're going to grow yourself, and you're going to have the ability to lead other people. So it's it's a big win win, you know, it's it's, if you can coach yourself, then you can coach other people, and that that'll help catapult your career as well. People are so frustrated, so frustrated with their bosses. In fact, you know, I've often thought that, you know, we should just start this movement to declare war on on bad bosses and, and bad bosses just aren't really good at coaching. And that's why people are so frustrated. And that's why if we can create more great coaches will create more leaders, and that's going to make a big difference in the world.

Donna Barton Brothers 12:20 

Yeah. And I would venture to say if these bad bosses could learn to coach themselves, they might be able to learn to coach other people as well. Well,

David Novak 12:27 

I'm hoping that somebody has gotten some feedback as a bad boss, they'll pick up take charge of you and say, hey, look, this is something that I need. And I guarantee if you don't know how to coach, you learn how to coach yourself. First, you'll be able to coach other people. And this is what I think makes us such a revolutionary concept. There's all these books on coaching, and you know, but hey, you know, you got to start with yourself. It's like expectations, the highest expectations anyone should have is the expectation that they have personally for themselves. And when you have that, that leads to other things that take you forward. So let's

Donna Barton Brothers 13:02 

back up. How did the two of you guys meet?

Jason Goldsmith 13:04 

David has a really good friend named Jimmy Dunn. And Jimmy is an amazing businessman, but he also loves golf just as much as David does. You know, some would say David loves golf than anybody. But, but Jimmy said, I have this buddy. And, and I think he could use your help. And if you could come down here and maybe, you know, introduce yourself and have a session and we'll just see how things go.

Donna Barton Brothers 13:31 

Okay, so let's stop for a second because I've heard David's a pretty good golfer. So obviously, the guy wasn't gone. I've got this buddy, who's a bad golfer. So what was it about your golfing and your buddy that made him go? Jason, I think you got to come help my friend?

David Novak 13:45 

Well, I think that's a very good question. I have to be very honest, open and vulnerable areas that, you know, I was very good at playing rounds of golf. But when I played in tournaments, I didn't play as well, I'd have the big shot I have to make or have to have the putt I needed to make but I would get too tight. Think about the outcome and not hit the shot when I needed to do it. So I think what Jimmy wanted me to do is to learn how to free myself up You always used to say to be you know, it's just a golf shot. Okay, well, I put too much importance on that. So I needed to have a performance coach someone to really help me through what I needed to do to be able to perform and in those kinds of situations, and I've made a lot of progress. You know, I'm not as good as I want to be. But I know I wouldn't be where I'm at today without Jason's coaching.

Donna Barton Brothers 14:32 

what point did you guys decide, hey, we've got something here between the two of us. What was your aha moment? Let's write a book together.

David Novak 14:39 

Well, when you spend a lot of time with people, you either decide you like him, or you don't Okay, and you know, Jason is like one of my best friends and I was thinking, geez, we have such commonality in terms of the desire to help other people. We both love coaching. He's a professional coach. I took pride in being a great A coach when I was a CEO of yum brands and teaching, taking people with you and doing one on ones with all of my general managers and really helping them. And I just said, Hey, Jason, you know, we should write a book, then the next process was, how do we make it unique?

Donna Barton Brothers 15:15 

Jason, had you thought about writing a book before that point?

Jason Goldsmith 15:18 

No, no, no, not at all. I mean, I'm dyslexic. So you know, for me, language has always been very difficult,

Donna Barton Brothers 15:26 

I have to interject, because one of the things I did love about the book is how you also came to see your dyslexia, growing up always as a liability, or as a disability. And at some point, you were able to reframe that and see that it also helped you develop along the way special abilities that you otherwise wouldn't have.

Jason Goldsmith 15:43 

Yeah, so you know, to me, it's it, you know, it's like, you're always hiding something, because you're not sure how the rest of the world is going to view you. If they know you have this, you know, suppose a disability. And to me, you know, it's like what we say in this book, one person can change your life, and I was playing around a golf, and it happened to be a guy that was in our foursome that I'd never met before. And he started, you know, asked me about my life and dyslexia came up, and he said, you know, my daughter's dyslexic. And I was like, really? And he said, Yeah, and he said, you know, they view that as just her brain being different, but in a lot of ways, she's way more creative than a lot of other people. And, you know, and so now they're looking at it, as you know, maybe that's a good thing. Like, like having a brain that isn't the same as everybody else's. And just that conversation, you know, completely changed my view on how I had been carrying around this, this fear for the majority of my life. And so, you know, to me, it's like what David said about this book, if, you know, somehow, we can have these five steps, just be a spark, that ignites something in somebody that maybe they didn't think they were capable of before. And it changes their life. You know, to me, that's the power of being a good coach, you know, and so, you know, you guys were saying earlier about these, you know, bad bosses, maybe they just haven't had the opportunity to coach somebody and feel what it feels like to transform somebody's life. Because I think once they got that, it's so addicting, that I think everybody would do it, because it's just so gratifying.

David Novak 17:24 

It's interesting, because there's a lot of research on this. The happiest people in the world are other directed it, that's another reason why I wanted to team up with Jason. So you're saying narcissists aren't happy narcissists are not happy that you know, collecting things, you know, getting the title, you know, moving up at all costs, these people are, are the most frustrated people in the world, they might have everything, but they have nothing, okay. But the people that are the happiest are the people that are other directed and, and that's another reason why I wanted to team up with Jason, you know, Jason is a very hardworking person. The only thing he cares about is helping other people. And he's one of the happiest guys I know. I wonder why, you know, I mean, I'm always telling him and I coach him on his business. He said, Jason, you don't charge enough money for what you do. He doesn't care about money. What motivates him is the thing that that gives him the joy of coaching others.

Donna Barton Brothers 18:26 

So David's speaking of coaching others, you did write the book taking people with you. But beyond that, I heard a rumor that there's something like 27 people who worked under you at some point that are now CEOs or went on to be CEOs. So this is a little bit of a twofold question. First of all, I'm sure you're very proud of that. But secondly, you were talking Jason earlier about sort of feeling like he had something to hide. So I'm guessing that imposter syndrome also holds people back. So you obviously coached people through this, does the self coaching also help people get past that sort of imposter syndrome and move on?

David Novak 19:02 

Yeah, you know, you can have a coach and a coach can tell you so many things, okay. It's like, that's great. But the real question is, are you going to do it? See, the coach can never do it for you. Okay. So you know, Jason can teach Jason Day and Justin Rose, how to become number one golfers in the world when they didn't, but that's in practice. But when those two guys got out there on the golf course, they're faced with a situation. Jason isn't there to tell them what to think Jason isn't where to tell him to get the neutral zone. Jason isn't there to say not yet. You know, they have to self coach to get there. But they have the tools to do it, because they've worked with the Jason and I can tell you myself, when I do what Jason tells me to do. I do extremely well, but the problem is done. I don't do it enough. Okay. He got distracted. Yeah, and I think that's what happens to everybody but at least I've been blessed enough to I have a process that I can use that if I use it, well, I'm going to perform well,

Donna Barton Brothers 20:04 

Jason, he brought up the neutral zone, let's talk about that zone of neutrality.

Jason Goldsmith 20:08 

Yeah. So it's just really just another way of saying being present, you know, so So when people are talking about being in the zone, what they're really talking about is being present and having a clear intention, and trusting their ability. And that's really what being in the zone is so. So when we want people to get into the neutral state, we want them to get there, because everything's possible from that place. So you're, you're not too positive, and you're not too negative, you're in this neutral space where everything can unfold in front of you. And that's when you're most creative. And that's when you're in your best athlete is when is when you're in a neutral place, the outcome takes care of itself.

Donna Barton Brothers 20:51 

David, I guess it's hard for a passionate guy like you to stay in a neutral zone.

David Novak 20:55 

I think it's I think it's a great point, you know, because you get a little bit too high. And sometimes you get a little bit too low. But funny story about this, when Jason and I, the very first day that we work together, I'm out there, I've got my golf clubs with me, and I really want to work on my short game, because that's my biggest area of opportunity. And

Donna Barton Brothers 21:13 

I like the way you called it your biggest area of opportunity.

David Novak 21:18 

Listen, you know, Jason says, let's go inside, I go, What do you mean, let's go inside. So he takes me inside the clubhouse, and we find this one room. And he puts on this Focus Band, which allows you to really understand if you're in a neutral state or not as new technology that he's created. And he has me walk up and down the, the room. And, you know, just trying to be focused on being neutral. And if you're neutral, you go on the green state, when you're thinking different thoughts, the red comes out, well, I got red popping up all over the place, you know, but you know, but it really made me think about the importance of just quieting your your mind. So eventually, we did go out on the golf course. And it's spitting rain, I mean, it's just absolutely pouring rain, and I got this guy, he's very expensive, so I gotta use him, I'm gonna win, I'm gonna have to pay him some rain. And you know, so I start hitting shots. And you know, I'm so focused on being good is terrible. And, you know, it's really interesting, in business, I can free myself up, I've had so much experience, I can do it naturally, you know, that it comes to me. And you know, but it's all because I spent so much time at it. And okay, I couldn't in the sporting in the golf environment, really free myself up to perform at my best. And when you get that kind of tension, you can't get there. And so I think the whole neutral state and number of other things that that Jason talks about in the book, helps you navigate through through those.

Donna Barton Brothers 22:43 

So you eventually learned how to get into the neutral state

David Novak 22:46 

I can I can get in the neutral state, you know, and it's it's kind of funny, you know, I wish I could do it more often. But since I started working with Jason, I did win a Club Championship for the first time, you know, I shot my age, I'm 68. I shot my 68 at a very, that's a big Ville, very good golf course. And, you know, I've won, you know, a very prestigious tournament with a partner where I shot a 74 on my own ball, and another very difficult course. So, you know, but the problem is with me, you know, I next day I might shoot at two,

Donna Barton Brothers 23:18 

I think that's the problem with most people who are not pro golfers. Yeah,

David Novak 23:21 

well, maybe so but you know, we're all in the question of getting better.

Donna Barton Brothers 23:26 

So does self coaching mean that you have to go it alone? You just are on your own?

Jason Goldsmith 23:29 

I think, ultimately, the answer is yes. But what David said earlier is absolutely correct. We're all doing it anyway. What we're saying is, is through our life experience, we're going to give you these tools to get you there quicker. And that's our goal is, you know, if you wanted to spend 20 or 30 years, you know, to come up with this process yourself, you probably would if you were really focused on it. So let's talk about

Donna Barton Brothers 23:55 

the process. How did you guys essentially create a roadmap that will lead you from point A to where you want to be? How did you come up with that process?

David Novak 24:03 

You don't want to get to that. But I want to go back to your question because I think it's a it's an excellent question. Because the self coaching mean, you don't need coaches. Absolutely. That's crazy to think that you don't need coaches. But what self coaching does is helps you figure out who you need to learn from. Let me give you a good example. When I was first became CEO, I was the marketing and operations persons. I never really had a lot of experience working with the investment community. So I used a few contacts to do everything I could to get a meeting with Warren Buffett. And so I went to Omaha and I talked to him about you know, how to deal with investors what he would do if he was me, and I took notes and I was sitting there at the feet of the master and, and I picked up some great knowhow on on how to deal with investors. And I went to see Warren Buffett every year I was CEO and obviously Oh from 1997 to 2016. But I did that with Warren Buffett. I did that with other people I would always go i Know What My gaps were, I know where I needed to, to, you know, to get better. And I would go to people to learn from and then sometimes I wanted to put the pedal to the metal on something that I was really good at. And I go to somebody there that could maybe teach me something that I didn't know. Yeah. And you know that that's what I think self coaching does is self coaching helps you build awareness of yourself so that you can know what coaches to go to. And you don't have to necessarily not everybody can go to see Warren Buffett or you know, the people that I've been able to see. But you can go read books about those people and what they have to say about the subject, there's lots of different ways you can get that know. So it

Donna Barton Brothers 25:36 

sounds like really what you're trying to do is develop confidence with humility to understand where your shortfalls are, and then go fill those gaps. Yeah,

David Novak 25:43 

I think you know, yeah, that's a very good point, I think. And it's interesting, the best leaders I know. You know, let's take a guy like Jamie Dimon who runs JPMorgan Chase, this guy is extremely confident yet he's humble enough to know that he doesn't know everything. And in and I think that makes him very endearing. Very inspiring, and why people want to follow him.

Donna Barton Brothers 26:09 

So now let's talk about that process. How did you guys land on this is the map that we think is gonna work for most everybody out there?

Jason Goldsmith 26:16 

Well, I think what we did was we sat down, and we really thought about, you know, who are all these really successful people? And what did they have in common? And, you know, David, and I would share stories. And then it was once we started to look at all these different stories and all these different successful people, what were the commonalities,

Donna Barton Brothers 26:35 

and these were stories from athletes on your part, and CEOs and leaders of multiple organizations, people, startup

David Novak 26:42 

companies, people like yourself, you know, people that we learn from and, and also, we really dug deep into how we do what we do, you know, a lot of times really successful people. They do things that other people don't do, but they they say, they say what just comes naturally to me, that's you won't maybe it comes naturally to you. But now when you really diagnose what it is that you've done, okay. And, you know, what we did is we sat down, and we really talked about how I coach, how he coaches, we looked at the commonalities, and we came up with this five step process that's in the book that will take you through whatever issue that you're dealing with, and help you get to hopefully, the promised land. And, and but it was that we had to dig deep. You know, even Jason, a professional coach, he has all these tools, he didn't really have a five step process, okay, he was doing those things. But together, we created this five step process that anybody in any walk of life, any vocation can use to up their game.

Donna Barton Brothers 27:48 

And this point, what gives you the confidence to know that this process works?

Jason Goldsmith 27:52 

Well, I think for me, it's because, you know, at the end of the day, what David said is, is true, I didn't realize that I was doing this while I was doing it. And you know, to think back at how I started out, and to think where I ended up, you know, everything is is just gravy to me, like this is just icing on the cake to have this book on the shelf. So, I know the process works, because I've lived the process, and I want to share that with other people. And that's really the goal, the book, when you

David Novak 28:23 

when you read the book, you're gonna hear all kinds of stories from from Jason span each point where he's worked with people and help them achieve things that they were really struggling with. Okay, and not just the very top elite athletes, but you know, people who were climbing the ladder in the, in the worlds of sports, you know, somebody's 15 years old, it's being overly criticized by, but their, their mother, you know, it just lots of things that I think will really be in the book that you'll really enjoy. Because, you know, people love stories, you know, you don't want to just hear do A, B, C, D, E, F, you want stories that inspire you to do A, B, C, D, E, F, and Jason has a lot of them and maybe I have one or two, okay? And, you know, we try to really make the book come alive through the stories that that we have.

Donna Barton Brothers 29:15 

Well, I have to admit, I got a copy of the book a couple of days ago, so I had two days to read it and so I loved everything about it, except that I had to rush through it. So I look forward to go back and reading it slowly but back to the writing process and comparing the different ways that the business people in the in the athletes have have achieved their goals. Did you guys ever have any arguments or any like points of contention or did it all come together really easily once you you sat down and talked about it?

Jason Goldsmith 29:42 

Yeah, I think it really came together quite easily. I mean, to me, if you're really good at something, you get so good at it that you actually play at it. And at the end of the day, that's what I coach because so many people forget how to play because they get so connected to the outcome that they forget it It's really about the joy of playing. So I don't think it matters. If you're a doctor or a lawyer, or a professional golfer, or basketball baseball player, it really doesn't matter. You have this skill set, you have this passion that drives you that motivates you to be able to play at whatever it is. And I think that's the real commonality is, you know, people that really succeed in life, figure out how to play every day, and find joy. And that's what motivates them to get up every day and do it.

David Novak 30:29 

You know, we had, I would say, a collective agreement on the major concepts of the book, where we had our points of debate was how you say it, you don't because, you know, finding that that magic set of words, okay, that really gets to what you're really talking about is not easy. But you know, again, it helped us simplify, you know, and all leaders need to learn how to simplify, you know, what they want their people to do. And we were able to simplify the way how we work with other people in a way that I think everybody can relate to, and come back to their specific vocation. So

Donna Barton Brothers 31:13 

back to what you said earlier, one of the things that that you all did really well to tell the story was let other people tell the story, like, for example of, well, I coached this one guy, or I talked to this other guy. And those stories I feel like really fed into this is why this works. Yeah,

David Novak 31:27 

yeah. Well, hopefully, you know, and, you know, because you, the last thing you want to do when you write a book is bore people, you know, exact so the real question is, how do you put a unique twist on on on the familiar? Well, there's a lot of stuff out there that talks about coaching, our unique twist is self coaching, and the unique vantage point from doing it. I don't think there's too many coaching books or business books where you have somebody that comes out of from the sports side and the business side. And I think that that's another point of uniqueness and in the book, and another reason why we enjoy doing it, because, you know, there's nothing like becoming what I call a whole brain, okay, you know, you have a different skill, you have different skills, we have all have different ways that we go about doing things. But when we all come together, you know, the brain gets more full, the brain gets more total, you become whole brained. And that's what we think we give is a whole brain perspective on the world of coaching,

Donna Barton Brothers 32:18 

right? Well, I can tell you, I've read everything from Zig Ziglar, to Deepak Chopra to Tony Robbins. And this is unique, and I liked everything about it. So I felt like you guys did a really good job. Now, you all had been friends for a long time before this. But then you went through this writing process together? Did you learn anything about each other that you didn't know, before, learn that you had any special talents?

Jason Goldsmith 32:37 

Well, what I learned, you know, because I've heard all the stories and, you know, read David's books. And so I, you know, and I knew David as being, you know, one of the top CEOs in the world, but what I hadn't learned was what it was like, to participate with David leading a group of people with a common goal. So that, you know, I know, David is a great friend of mine, one of my best friends in the whole world now, but in the beginning, you know, he was somebody that needed help with golf. And so to go from that, to this, you know, that that was what was so different for me is is, is how creative and what an amazing leader he is. It's, it's different to hear about it, and then to experience so so for me, that's what I learned was, I knew David, you know, was was a genius when it came to being creative. But when you're in a book writing process, and you need things to get done, you need somebody that's going to lead the team, but you also need somebody that's going to have this creative way about them, to come up with new ideas, you know, come up with the name of the book, you know, those kinds of things. So, you know, to me, that was that's what I learned most when, in during this process.

David Novak 33:53 

One of the things about Jason he's he's very processed, directed, he says never don't worry about outcome always be focused on the process, process process process, you know, and but one of the things I learned about Jason, and it surprised me because I thought he was extremely anal, you know, very literal, you know, but he ended up being extremely creative. I didn't know this about him, you know, because we, we, you know, I came up with the title take charge of you and the subhead, but we were really struggling with, you know, how do we get a really exciting cover, you know, on the cover is really important if you want to sell a lot of books, and believe me, you know, we want to sell a lot of books because we want to make a difference with a lot of people. Well, we kept thinking about the cover and looking at covers, and we had all these people working on the cover in our designers, all the stuff. And he actually when you look at the cover, which is basically a reflective mirror, it says take charge of you hit was his idea. He said why not put a mirror on the cover, and then we found out that we could make it reflective. And it's a really great cover, in my opinion, better than anything I've ever done. And he came up with it. Then we pay these designers to come up with it. has to get it our coaching tips and all this and, and again, we get zero creativity, I don't know why these are professionals and this guy comes up and he comes up with the two icons that we're going to use inside of the book, because this is a book of exercises. And you know, if you can read this book straight through, and you're going to enjoy it, okay, but the people that are going to get the most out of it, they're going to stop and do many of the exercises that we have in the book, because it'll help you get done, what needs to get done. But anyway, Jason came with the icons, and I was surprised how creative he wants, he's very creative, you know, he walks around like a little rooster. You know, I came up with a cover, or

Donna Barton Brothers 35:43 

did you surprise yourself? Or was this just something that you normally do?

Jason Goldsmith 35:47 

No, I mean, obviously, I've never done anything like this before. But you know, to me, it was we had spent so much time. And, you know, when you spend so much time thinking about one thing, and the you know, I'm gonna say you get in the neutral state. Incredible, you know, what ideas, you know, you can come up with. And so again, it was just an exercise. And we had this really clear intention, we were spending a tremendous amount of time on, you know, figuring out these things that were like David said, so critical, very important. And I would literally meditate on these concepts. And you know, just one day, I'm looking at myself in the mirror, probably getting ready to do something,

David Novak 36:32 

he does that quite often.

Jason Goldsmith 36:34 

Yeah, I probably need to do a little bit more. But, but and literally saw, take charge of you on the mirror. And I thought, wouldn't that be great if you walked into a bookstore, and you picked up this book, and it reflected back your face in the book, and it said, Take Charge view? To me, that would be something that I would pick up, and I'd at least open it up to read what the book was about.

David Novak 36:57 

And I think it's great. And, you know, the I think the other thing that we learned about each other, is just how much fun it is to do something that you're really proud of that, you know, will help other people. We both have that inclinations. He's coached all these athletes. And you're right, I'm extremely proud of the fact that, you know, I've got over 20 people that I work with that become CEOs of really big time companies. And that makes me really proud. And, and the fact that we could work together and really, you know, put down and codify the things that have helped these people be so successful, really, really meant a lot to both of us. Yeah, I think

Donna Barton Brothers 37:39 

it really shows that both of you are really passionate about helping other people and not not just so that you can make money to coach other people, but to truly help other people. But, Jason, let's go to your background a little bit because you were in business. And so how did you go from having two different businesses actually to becoming a performance coach.

Jason Goldsmith 37:56 

So it really goes back to you know, my wife was the one that got me on this path. And she knew that I was not happy with where I was, and, and you know, quite frankly, I was in a great career. And I was running a boat company in San Diego, we were successful, but not happy. I was I was more successful than I thought I'd ever be. But it wasn't feeding my soul. So I knew that that I had a greater purpose. And I didn't know at the time that I wasn't fulfilling my life purpose. Now, I

Donna Barton Brothers 38:25 

won't tell the whole story. But I do love the fact that your wife called you out on your own sort of declaration and said, Hey, you said and so

Jason Goldsmith 38:33 

right part of part of it is right part of coaching is having people to hold you accountable. And she held me accountable. And that accountability, changed my life. And so I went from not feeding my soul and not knowing what my life's purpose is, you know, sitting here now knowing exactly what I was putting on this earth to do.

Donna Barton Brothers 38:52 

David, let's talk about the accountability because you do talk about it in the book also. But earlier, I asked you to self coaching mean, you go it alone. And essentially, in the book you talk about, it's important to set goals and then tell people about those goals.

David Novak 39:05 

Yeah, I think you know, the most important people understand what people want, okay. They talk about it all the time, and then they make sure that it happens. And, you know, I think that, you know, the real question is, if that's the key to success, how do you do that for yourself? That's the That's the million dollar question. That's why you need books like this to help you work through those things, so that you can have that, that that kind of success. You know, I have all kinds of self coaching stories and that I've had and stories where other people have self coached in the business world and I've seen it happen in sports as well. But it's it ultimately it comes down to your own personal accountability. Do I want this bad enough to where I'm going to make the changes I need to make To get to where I want to go.

Donna Barton Brothers 40:01 

So Jason, you've worked with some of the most accomplished athletes in the world? Where do you even start with a guy like Jason Day? Who says, you know, come help me? Where do you start as a coach,

Jason Goldsmith 40:10 

I always start with their story. Because if if you can get somebody to relay their story to you, then you really start to get insight into their personal beliefs. And then you can figure out, okay, where are the areas that this particular person needs some help. So asking a lot of questions, you know, becoming, you know, what I would say, more self aware, helping the athlete become more self aware, so that we can identify what the issues are. And then we have a starting point as to as to how we can help them get better and achieve their goals.

Donna Barton Brothers 40:40 

And have, they all been pretty easily coachable. Or some of them a bit more set in their ways, I would say

Jason Goldsmith 40:46 

every, every athlete that I've ever worked with is, is different. And I think that's, you know, obvious, you know, everybody's unique. So it's, it's, it's finding the person where they are, and then having a process in place that's going to allow you to help them help themselves. And so, so really, you know, Justin Rose is very different than Jason Day. But at the end of the day, they want the same thing. And so if you can help both of them achieve their goals, two completely different personality types that they want to achieve, you know, what they're, they're here to do. And so you know, once you understand that, then it's just a matter of creating a roadmap, and then helping them achieve it.

David Novak 41:26 

So in coaching yourself, you've got to tell your own story to yourself, which means you got to be open, you got to be vulnerable, you got to see the world, the way out really is not the way you want it to be. And you got to start out with that story. And, and, and then you know, then you can go from there. And you know, I think what really makes a good coach is a good coaches is someone who's trustworthy, someone that you know, has your best interest at heart, nobody's going to care about you until you care about them. Once a person feels that in you, they will open up, be vulnerable and tell people exactly, you know what they think. And, you know, I have I'm an extrovert, I think it was probably pretty easy for Jason, to get me to spill my spill, spill my guts, okay, which I did, okay. But I've coached a lot of people who are introverts and shy, and they're not going to give it to you. At the very beginning. Let's

Donna Barton Brothers 42:29 

talk about that. We talked about your sort of coaching tray where you've, you've had something like 27 people who worked under you come up and be their own CEOs? Were they all really good self coaches, or did they need coaching along the way?

David Novak 42:43 

I think they, they needed coaching. But the good thing about it was when they got in a particular situation, they coached themselves to come up with the right approach to get to the right answer, okay, because ultimately, you do have to take personal accountability for executing what you learn, Donna, you could tell me a lot of great things, and they all make sense. And then I can just walk down the street and just keep doing things away how I've always done it. That's one of the reasons why I hated these, a lot of times we'd have these three day meetings and everybody be all high. And you know, we learned this when we learned that they walk out the door, and then they go back to normal doing the job the way how they've always done it, okay, because we didn't shock the system enough, we didn't shake people up enough to where you really drive that change. So, you know, yeah, I don't rally is not a roadmap, I don't think anybody's going to pick up our book, if they don't want to change their life and make it better in some way, or help somebody else make it better. Okay, so you gotta have that in your gut. First, when you have that, then you might be able to make some change.

Donna Barton Brothers 43:42 

Jason, who are some of the best self coached athletes you've worked with?

Jason Goldsmith 43:47 

Well, I would say, you know, Jason Day, Justin Rose, at the end of the day, like David said, they have to hit the shot. You know, so I've worked with, you know, hundreds of golfers and you know, all all, you know, most of them are professional golfers. And in like, we were just talking about, we can talk about performance all day long. But at the end of the day, you know, when they need to hit a shot, and it's a shot that's going to, you know, put them in contention or give them an opportunity to when there's nobody on the planet, but them and they have to, you know, make a decision set their intention. And then they have to perform.

Donna Barton Brothers 44:28 

Yeah, David is the same with being a CEO or a leader. So who are some of the best self coach leaders that you've worked with? Like who just sort of really gets it?

David Novak 44:35 

Oh, there's no question that Jamie Dimon at JPMorgan Chase is amazing. Brian Roberts at Comcast is is is sensational. You know, Jason brought up Jimmy Dunn does a great job of self coaching himself. In you know, Tom Brady's fantastic self coach, you know, Steve Kerr, unbelievable self coach, you know, it's hard for me to look Get a really fantastic leader without realizing and knowing that and just seeing an action that they're very good at itself coaching themselves to, to self correct or the leverage skill that they have to take it to the next level, they just get it. And that's something we want to help people learn how to do,

Donna Barton Brothers 45:19 

David, you call it raising the bar. But what keeps you motivated every year to every year on January 1, sit down and say this is how I'm going to be a better person this year, what keeps you motivated to do this, you've already been so successful.

David Novak 45:31 

I don't know about that. But I do know that I don't think anybody in the world wakes up every day wanting to be a part of something mediocre. And so I kind of look at myself as a work in progress. And I want to make what David Novak is, be the best it can possibly be, I want to make the biggest impact I can on earth while I'm here. And so I don't want to go through life just you know, doing things that I enjoy. I wanted to go through life doing things that help others that I enjoy. So it comes back to helping people I think there's no question. That's my passion.

Donna Barton Brothers 46:06 

So Jason, can you talk about a time when self coaching really helped you yourself?

Jason Goldsmith 46:11 

Yeah, I mean, I think it was, we could, you know, go back to how I got on this path of becoming a coach. You know, I had to understand that, you know, what I was doing, wasn't feeding my soul. It wasn't, you know, had a purpose, it was to run this boat company. But, you know, at the end of the day, I wasn't having the impact that I thought I could have, you know, while I was here, so, you know, to me, it was, you know, how do you go from doing this, you know, you're really good at and, you know, and you're enjoying to, you know, something else that that really motivates you to be, you know, passionate. And, you know, and like I said earlier, you know, once you start to see that you have a positive effect on other people's lives. It's really difficult not to want to do that every single day.

Donna Barton Brothers 47:04 

Yeah. So David, how do you use the self coaching to help others and not only to focus on themselves, but to get them to also help others? I think

David Novak 47:12 

that it's the aha moment that comes from learning how to self coach is, once you pick up the skills, you don't really have to put a lot of emphasis on the need to help others, you know, because I think, you know, most people realize that you're going to achieve the most success in life, you know, when you can help others, but you got to help yourself first, many times, just so you can get prepared to do that you can, you can want to be a great executive. But if you haven't put in the time and grade to learn your trade, it's going to be hard for you to be a coach in that specific area. So there's a combination of time and grade. And then you know, the experience that you learned the things that you pick up, you combine that and with, with the the experience you get, and the desire, you get to take what you've learned and spread it that makes you become a great coach.

Donna Barton Brothers 48:03 

Jason, what's your favorite tip from the book?

Jason Goldsmith 48:05 

Reframing is, you know, maybe the most powerful tool and getting getting yourself into a neutral mindset is is, you know, to me is very powerful. But most people need that reframing to on a daily basis. So if you could develop, you know, that tool to where you don't look at things in the scope of failure, failure doesn't exist, right? It's all just about experience, and if you can look at life is just one big experience after another. If you can set a clear intention and you you start on a path, then you're going to be able to achieve, you know, whatever it is that you're passionate about,

Donna Barton Brothers 48:47 

along those lines, what's the most important question that you have to ask yourself?

Jason Goldsmith 48:51 

I think the most important question that you have to ask yourself this, who am I? You know, you need to be self aware, you need to have you know, that question answered. So when somebody asks you, who are you, there can't be any hesitation. It's like what David was saying, you have to be that confident about you know, why you're here.

Donna Barton Brothers 49:10 

What is your favorite tip from the book? Do

David Novak 49:12 

I really love the idea of joy builders and joy blockers? And I think if you can understand what gives you joy and what gets in the way of your joy, you're you're on your way to be in home free Yeah. And

Donna Barton Brothers 49:27 

since since I read the book, I will say you also offer ways for people to discover those so if it doesn't immediately come to mind you do give tips for how can you find those this

David Novak 49:37 

is a book of self discovery this you know I learned a long time ago that telling isn't selling you the best ideas anybody can come up with or their own Okay? Therefore stories work and and good logic and good process and good exercises. They all work you know, you can't do something like this and, and do it with fluff. It's got to be substance.

Donna Barton Brothers 49:59 

There David, I know you're passionate about learning. So tell me what does it mean to be an avid learner? And why does this book fit the bill? Well,

David Novak 50:06 

avid learners, you know, people often ask me, you talked to all these great leaders, what's the single biggest trait that they all have? And it is that they're avid learners, they, they, they want to make themselves better. They want to make their their business better. And, you know, you're constantly on the lookout for learning. And that's what I think the big, big trade is, is that, you know, the one thing about greatness is, is that it there's always some humility and greatness because humility says that you don't know at all. There have been books written about people who are the smartest people in the room, okay, they end up being the dumbest. But the people who know that they don't know at all, those are the people that become avid learners, and they ultimately end up learning a lot more than everybody else. And then they put that to use for their business and the people that they lead and themselves, because you you have to grow yourself. You have to grow your business, you have to grow others, and avid learning allows you to do all those things.

Donna Barton Brothers 51:11 

Alright, we're gonna have some fun now, we're gonna do that lightning round that you'd like to do at the end your podcasts and never done this. Now you have to answer the questions. So these are going to be for both of you. They're going to be really quick questions. Really? Quick answers. Favorite golf movie, Jason?

Jason Goldsmith 51:25 

Oh, tin cup. Cup.

Donna Barton Brothers 51:27 

Hello. Okay, David, all time favorite resource.

David Novak 51:32 

Secretary.

Jason Goldsmith 51:34 

Oh, that mean? I was gonna say, Secretary, you can

Donna Barton Brothers 51:36 

have the same movie, same horse. I guess we're gonna. Okay, so Jason, if you could be a superhero, any one of them? Which one would it be? And why?

Jason Goldsmith 51:44 

I guarantee you David will not pick this Doctor Strange. And the reason is he manipulates time.

Donna Barton Brothers 51:51 

Oh, that's good. That's what you do with meditation. David, Captain

David Novak 51:55 

America. I want to say the planet I want to I want to wear that uni and I want to be I want to be Captain America.

Donna Barton Brothers 52:06 

So David, one of the questions that you ask all the guests that you have on Do you have a secret talent? Do I

David Novak 52:12 

have a secret talent? Ah, oh, I love doing the voice with my grandkids. Really? Oh, yeah. I'm not a good singer. But we get the chairs out we do the turnaround and all that kind of stuff. It is.

Jason Goldsmith 52:28 

It is amazing. It's amazing to watch. Yes, really?

Donna Barton Brothers 52:32 

Jason, you have a secret talent.

Jason Goldsmith 52:34 

I mean, I love to cook and I don't think a lot of people know that about me. So I'm I'm a pretty good like I have this ability that when I want to cook something I can have the taste of it in my mouth before I even start. Wow, that's really

Donna Barton Brothers 52:49 

going to that

David Novak 52:50 

he makes he makes a mean scrambled eggs. I had to they taught me a few tips. And now I now make means scrambled eggs. All right

Donna Barton Brothers 52:57 

now. Now we have to get the tip on the scrambled eggs. What's

Jason Goldsmith 53:00 

the tip is you add a little cold water. Right and you whisk it in and it makes really fluffy scrambled eggs. Yeah, nice.

Donna Barton Brothers 53:06 

I like it. All right, you get a fruitcake as a holiday gift. Do you eat it? Or we gift it?

Jason Goldsmith 53:11 

I always eat it. And it's for the same reason because I want to get better at so I'm very interested on what other people do. So I'll even with fruitcake. Yeah, I want to know is there am I going to find one that I really enjoy? And then why do I enjoy it?

David Novak 53:27 

I read gifted something once for one of my relatives and my mother found out about it. She gave me so much Halibel I never read gift anything again. But I also will tell you I'm never going to eat any fruitcake gear.

Donna Barton Brothers 53:37 

I'm with you on that both. All right, guilty pleasure can be food or entertainment. I guess you're gonna be food, but I don't know, oh,

Jason Goldsmith 53:46 

I would say I you know, guilty pleasure. I do enjoy a nice glass of wine on occasion. And for the same reason I want to I want to try as many things as possible. So it's not a particular variety. I'm, I'm I'm open. So I'm always looking for something I haven't had before.

Donna Barton Brothers 54:04 

Maybe can't pick wine because you do that more than on occasion. So

David Novak 54:08 

I gotta tell you guilty pleasure. That's a tough one. But I have to, I have to say as Blue Bell Ice cream. Oh my gosh. I start that tub and it ends up being gone.

Donna Barton Brothers 54:19 

All right. So David, one of your favorite questions that you ask people on your show, and I want to hear it from you are three traits that you see in the best leaders?

David Novak 54:29 

Well, I think number one, they are humble enough to know that they can't go it alone. Number two, they are big believers in people and they know that they have to have incredible talent to succeed. And number three, they take great joy in leading people to victory.

Donna Barton Brothers 54:55 

Great traits. Alright, Jason, we're gonna mix it up just a little bit for you because I Want to know the three traits that you see in the most coachable and successful people doesn't have to be athletes most coachable and successful,

Jason Goldsmith 55:08 

I would say I have most experience with athletes, but I would say in general, they know who they are. So people are self aware, then they have their purpose is very well defined, so they know where they want to go. And then I would say the last thing is, they're so passionate about achieving that thing. And to me, that's, you know, what separates a person that's going to make it in sports from a person that doesn't make it in sports. It's the attention to detail, and the discipline, and the self accountability to do that every single day. And you know, to me, that's constantly amazing me, and I'm so lucky to be able to witness it, you know, in being in the same in the same room while they're doing it. It's just, you know, it's just inspirational to be able to watch it.

Donna Barton Brothers 56:05 

Well, I feel lucky to have been able to sit here and talk with both of you have been Jason, David, it's been my pleasure. And David, thank you for letting me host your show. Oh, that's

David Novak 56:13 

great. You know, we'd like to thank you, Donna, for doing this. And, you know, a great self coaching example that I saw or heard was when you were talking about when you won your first race. And you you were coaching a horse. And you knew when that that horse's ears perked up, that that was a time, you need to give them a little extra incentive. And that add helps you win your first race, if I recall, and there wasn't anybody there to tell you to get that little, you know, slot, you know, whatever it is you do to a horse to get him to go? Well, as

Donna Barton Brothers 56:51 

we talked about, the jockeys do not have coaches, but we do have a team member on our team members, our horse and interviewer, as a jockey, I think you are a coach. And if you're a good coach, then you're listening to what your team member needs and wants. And you try to provide Oh, there you go.

Jason Goldsmith 57:06 

Or you go. And if you're in that flow state at the moment, then you know that it's absolutely the right thing to do. Because you just trust your intention. Like it might not ever been a thought that you ever had before. But if you're in that flow state, and you and you realize, oh, this is what I need to do. Speaking of

Donna Barton Brothers 57:24 

that, I'll tell you a quick reaction. So I turned for home one day on a horse that was in front and I went to turn over my writing crop. And as soon as I turned over my writing crop, she pinned her ears back. And so I put it away, because I knew she didn't want that. And so she ended up winning, but only by ahead. And so when I came back, the trainer said how did you know not to hit her? I meant to tell you that I don't think she likes the writing crop. And I said, Well, she told me and so but the joke back in the jocks room was the valid said, Yeah, Chris Bala vich was the guy who ran second down and turned over a riding crop. And so it's just crest and put it away.

David Novak 57:57 

And I think Donna, you coached yourself if I recall, you wanted to be a jockey. And you started hanging around in the stables and just being there and learning and people saw that in you. And that ultimately led to you getting the opportunity if I recall, I know your mother was a famous jockey.

Donna Barton Brothers 58:14 

Yeah, I think one of the one of the best pieces of advice I got was somebody said, Do you want to know how to win races? And I said, Yeah, and they said ride for people who win races. And that's when I realized that I had to associate with people who were already successful if I wanted to be successful.

David Novak 58:27 

Yeah, that's a great that's like a golf. They say if you want to be a good putter, don't have dinner with a bad putter. Make sure you're hanging around good putters.

Donna Barton Brothers 58:35 

Okay, good. All right, guys. It's been a lot of fun. Jason, really nice to talk with you. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for the book and your contribution to it. And David, it wouldn't be a book without the both of you working together

Jason Goldsmith 58:47 

on it. It's been wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much.

David Novak 58:50 

We couldn't add anybody better ask us questions about what we're trying to do. And we thank you for setting the stage for what we hope is a very successful endeavor.

Donna Barton Brothers 59:00 

Yeah, good luck. Thank you. And it was my pleasure. Thanks.

David Novak 59:09 

Now, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And I hope you're primed and ready to be the best self coach you can be. If you don't already have a copy of the new book, go to Amazon or wherever you buy books and pick up a copy of take charge of you. These lessons have made a significant impact on my life and my career. And I want you to experience the same benefits, pick up the book and go into self coaching journey with me. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that the great leaders use self coaching to transform their life and career. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple in each episode that you can apply to your business so that you can become the best leader you can be awesome See you next week