The most successful team in the history of sports has been the New Zealand All Blacks, and their mantra is "sweep the shed." And what it means is that nothing is too small even for their superstars. And I think that that's a huge thing. Okay everybody, are you ready for this? Buckle up, because this conversation is going to go from pickleball to philosophy to hedge funds to chess. And I promise you, there are leadership lessons at every turn. Welcome to How Leaders Lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you can be. My guest today is Doug Hirsch, who as you may have guessed is a true Renaissance man. He's the former founder of the hedge fund Seneca Capital, and the guy who launched the popular zone investment conference. He's also the owner of Major League Pickleball Team , the Arizona Drive, and a heck of a player himself. Having recently been crowned the men's over 60 nationals champion, and is now playing on the senior pro circuit. I mean, everything Doug does, he succeeds at. And sometimes when we see that kind of excellence, we want to attribute it to raw talent and intelligence. And sure, they're important, but that's not all that really matters. Listen to this conversation and discover why excellence isn't just a standard to meet. It's a habit to develop. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Doug Hirsch. You know, Doug, you are a pickleball fanatic. How did you get into it? Well, it was a funny story. I was having breakfast one day with Larry Fitzgerald. We were going to play golf, and it was raining, and he suggested we go play pickleball, and it was, he might as well suggest we go play bingo. I thought it was just crazy. I was very dismissive of the sport. I didn't know anything about it, but that didn't stop me from being dismissive and skeptical. But we we found a local place to play, and it was a lot of fun. And I was hooked. I was hooked. And you know, you play Larry Fitzgerald. He's, you know, a Hall of Fame NFL football player. Great to receiver. Who won? Well, I convinced him that being 20 years older and about six inches shorter was an advantage. And I told him that, you know, he'd have to wait until I was 80 to beat me. And I've been playing a lot more since then. So I had to revise that to 85. You have been playing a lot more and you only started a few years ago, and you 're the national over 60 champion. And now you're playing on the senior pro tour. Doug, I mean, how did you get so good at pickleball so fast? Because that's it. That's a heck of an accomplishment. I really don't know too many national champions of anything. I played a lot of tennis growing up. Regrettably, I never played golf growing up, but I played a lot of tennis growing up. And that's that's certainly been a huge head start. The senior pro level is is is is is a different level because that's 50 and over. So I'm spotting some of these guys 10 years. And the the better players did play professional tennis. I actually my my first pro tournament. I I was able to win my first round match. And I played number one in the world in my second round. And unfortunately, the better player won. He's about a six foot three Swedish former tennis pro. And he got the better me. But I do want another crack at him. Now I know I understand you practice with Yvonne Lindell, who is ranked number one in the world. You know, what do you learn about leadership just hanging with a guy like that? You know, he it's interesting because his persona, he's so fun to be around. He talks huge trash. And it's his persona is so different than his his aura from from 40 years ago, where he was this, you know, Czechoslovakian machine, who I think a revolutionized fitness, really introduced fitness to tennis. He revolutionized inside out forehand. And this is a guy who , you know, he lost a very tough match in five sets in a major. And he said to himself then that he will never lose again based on not being being fit. And he totally, you know, up his game, there are people that arguably had more natural talent than he did his just his will to increase his his his competitiveness, his his fire. He was just so prepared for matches. And he really didn't leave anything to chance. So he he set the bar incredibly high. After we played for the pickle off for the first time, I went home and I watched some of his highlights on YouTube from 40 years ago. And my God, he was he was awesome. He was so fluid and strong. You know, one of the things that that you know, I've always admired about you, Doug, is that you stay fit. I mean, you're extremely fit. How do you think just being in shape really impacted the way you brought yourself to work? Yeah, I think that it I think it matters. I've always, I guess, since I've started, you know, played sports early, being in shape was was important. There are probably some people early in my career who would have viewed working at Seneca as a contact sport, but it's physical. And I think that you you can't perform mentally unless you're you're physically fit . It's interesting. Their chess players, Bobby Fisher was famous for for for physically training for chess. I mean, you you you you burn a lot of calories thinking and you can't really you can't perform at your highest without without being in shape. I find it a high if I if I'm not sweating and exerting myself and and getting my dorphins going, it's a frustrating day. Now Doug, you've gone on and you've taken this passion that you have for pickleball and you've actually bought a professional team that the Arizona Drive, you know, being the really smart investor that you are, what makes you think buying a pickleball team will end up being a big plus on the investment side. Yeah, I mean, we I certainly wasn't in the market to buy a professional pickleball team. The opportunity surfaced. I think that, look, I think pickleball is unique in that it is so accessible. Any age, any ability in 10 minutes, you can have a lot of fun playing pickleball and that you can't say that about you know, certainly can't say that about tennis. It's not the case in golf for sure. So, you know, there's a saying that there's no there's no politics on a pickleball court. You've got people all walks of life. I mean, there's no barrier. You've spent a $75 on a paddle and you have a pair of sneakers, you can play and there you can't get a court in a lot of places now. There's you know, the you know, the difference between a tennis court and a pickleball court. No, it's that the tennis court the one with no one on it. And it's it's because it's I don't think look, COVID certainly was an accelerant, but I don't think it's a fad. I think that there are so many social benefits to it. There's physical benefits to it. There's a huge element of loneliness that that pervade senior citizens. And this has given people a real way to to find something to do. I think it's going to be an Olympic sport. I think the question in terms of the major league pickleball, the real question is, you know, is it televisable? Is there a TV audience for it? And I think that, you know, the participation levels are crazy and continue to be exponential. And I don't see how there can be that big a disconnect between the viewing audience and the and the participation level. I mean, look ESPN has cornhole and darts on TV. I think that there's there will be people who want to want to see the game played by the best in the world at the same game that they're playing. So I'm bullish on it. I'm bullish. You know, not surprisingly, you've been a leader in everything that you've done. And and I know as a as a team owner, you were instrumental in bringing a dispute between the professional pickleball association, which was one side. And the other side was the major league pickleball organization. And you stepped in and you bought you brought both those teams together when the merger was starting to fall apart. You know, why do you think, you know, big deals fall apart? And then what do you as a leader do to bring them back together? Yeah, so this was this really was a on some level of case study, a Harvard Business School case study that that arguably should be on Saturday Night Live as well. This really was the the epitome of someone falling prey to ego in a motion. The founder of Major League pickleball, who clearly had some very good ideas and who galvanized this sport felt that he was being slighted and broke off the deal and tried and contracted about 100 players for $100 million with three year contracts. And he only had a million dollars in the bank. So he ironically, he felt that he was putting the other side out of business and he put himself out of business. And I think that the lesson really is that ego and emotion need to be checked. And if you're not objective and rational, and you let your emotions dictate you your actions, you're going to have a problem. We were able to bring sides together, the two sides together after he resigned and resurrect something. But the damage is still real because they had financially really burdened the new co so so significantly that we've got a lot of a lot of wood to chop to get ourselves back on foot. But ego and emotion are that anyone can be vulnerable to it. You're right about that. And I want to shift gears for a minute. And I want to take you back. In your case, it's way back because I'm going to take you back to your childhood. What's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you are today? I think there's probably a couple of things. I mean, my father, my father's was very family oriented and very spanced, very sports oriented and was a huge Green Bay Packers fan. So there was a Lombardi ethos that permeated our household. And that was very real in many different ways. My father was not career oriented. And ironically, that probably fueled some of my career passion. Money was certainly a sensitivity at times. I remember that when I went to the dentist and was told that I needed braces, my father said that we weren't, he wasn't going to get me braces because I was going to get my teeth knocked out anyway. He proved to be right. But I think that there was a Lombardi ethos that was instilled in me. And I think that through my mother, I was very, my mother's father had Parkinson's. And that was a very raw, bitter pill for me, growing up because I saw the impact it had on her. And I remember asking her all questions, all sorts of questions about him. He had tremors and he had trouble and he st uttered. He had trouble articulating things. But mentally, he was fine. But I was very intrigued with him. And my mother had shared that he had started a retail clothing business in Oklahoma and took the very bold step in the early 60s of allowing African Americans to shop at his stores. And there were people protesting and picketing outside. And he was fine with that. And he felt that he was going to stay true to himself and do the right thing and see how things played out. And I remember, she showed me an article that was written in the local paper about it. And that had big impact on me. And the other thing that I remember is that when my mother's older brother went to New York after college leaving Oklahoma, my grandfather said to him, just whatever you do, don't find yourself working for your secretary or your accountant. Meaning, don't live a double life and don't take shortcuts. And I think that this was an okey from Muskogee giving very sharing real uncommon sense views. And it definitely is something that registered with me. It's the great twain line that tell the truth. It's easier to remember. And I think that that's guided me through my journey in the hedge fund business in terms of being true to your word and having people being able to trust with you. They may disagree with you, but they at least trust you. You played hockey in college and you were one of Dartmouth's leading scores. What's the lesson that you learned then that you've carried off the ice and really impacted the way how you go to work? Yeah, I think, look, sports offer so much. And I think that , again, from the Lombardi cradle I was born in to sort of chasing this dream of playing division on college hockey in high school. Dartmouth was third in the nation. They lost back to back years to North Dakota. And I remember when I made the team as a freshman how incredible that feeling was. And there was just an incredible sense of mission and of camaraderie. I recall one instant in junior year when we had a road trip. And I think we were tied against clerks and going into the third period. And they blew us out in the third period. And we drove back to Hanover that night, by the way, we had classes the next day. And we got back to Hanover about one in the morning. And as we were pulling into Hanover, the coach told us that we should meet in the locker room that put our equipment on, which obviously was soaking wet. And he skated us for about 45 minutes without lights on in the rink. There were some moonlight you could see, but there were no pucks. It was just whistles. And he skated us into the ground. And it's just indelibly instilled in me, discipline, you know, discipline versus regret. And that you often have this choice between discipline and regret. And I think that the memories, the friendships, the pursuit, the challenging yourself to see how good you could be. These are things that definitely I've taken from hockey to everything I do. You were a hockey player that you were also a philosophy major, which I found to be a little bit surprising. And you end up starting your own hedge fund. Was there a specific leader dug that really impacted you in the investment world that shaped your experience and where you wanted to head? You know, I look, when I when I graduated from Dartmouth without incidentally taking an economics class or math class, you know, I didn't do corporate recruiting, I was lucky to get a part-time job as I thought I was going to go to law school the next fall. And I wound up getting a an informational interview at a place called Jamie, who was an acronym for John A. Mulhurne, Izzy Englander. And I went over there and it was, I was interested in stocks, by the way, I didn't know the difference when I graduated Dartmouth from between a stock and a bond. But, but I, I, I at least had at that point some at least sexy sense of of being a ball in the stock market versus the bond market. But I went over there, I was chatting with Izzy as it turned out they had just fired somebody, which wasn't uncommon. Jamie and John Mulhurne in particular was a was a very tough Darwinian shop where he was just incredibly impatient and and brilliant. And as I learned more, I was intrigued. Again, it wasn't the area that I wanted to be in, but as I learned more, it was, I realized that, that, that John's brilliance was, was attracting me. Izzy shared that, you know, I'd have to come back and, and, and meet John. So I did a bunch of homework learning about John, you know, you know, he, he was just viewed as, he was so fertile and imaginative. And, and, and again, his upbringing was not the traditional Wall Street upbringing. Remember this, this great story where he, for whatever reason, got very bullish on copper and made the insight or learned that there were about 150 pennies in a pound of copper and copper was trading at a, I don't know, a dollar 20 or something, a pound. And John, who didn't do anything in a small way, you know, with the, with that insight started hoarding pennies. And he was paying people to go to McDonald's and banks and anywhere he could go and collect and, and get pennies. And he had, he had vaults in New York where he was storing pennies. And sure enough, and he may have added to it, but there was a penny shortage scarcity. And the penny, get, penny went, the copper went to over $2 a pound. So his pennies became worth a lot more as copper than they were as pennies. And as he was going to cash in on the trade, the FBI got involved because you can't tamper with currency. But the point was that this is a guy who was just so imaginative and so free thinking. And I wanted to do anything I could to work there. And it was an incredible, you know, incredible opportunity for me to be around someone like that. It didn't last long because they're right after I started the Ivan Boste scandal unfolded. John wound up being implicated in that he challenged the government. He's the only person that the challenge the government, he was exonerated on all counts, but he was forced to close the fund. But his impact on me was, was huge. So, you know, John could smell money. And do you think that transferred over to you? Doug, do you think people would say that you, you, you smell money in the sense of knowing, knowing how to make it and how to go after it? I think you start to get a sense of what's in your mating pool and where and ideas that you think smell like money making opportunities. Yeah, and you know, on some level, there's a part of our business, which is making analogies and, you know, having seen this this movie before, and things don't repeat, but they do rhyme. And I think that, look, he there's definitely times in my career where I did think about John, where I did attempt to think about how John would think about something and try not to be confined by, by dogma and by, you know, trying to look at things fresh. Hey, Doug, you said something that was really interesting to me there. You said things don't repeat, but they do rhyme. Say more. Well, again, I guess I'm quoting Mark Twain, but, um, you know, I think that, uh, whether it's investments or history, uh, you know, the exact same situation doesn't necessarily happen again, but something but a variation of it does. Yeah, the most four dangerous words in investing are this time it's different. Uh, and there's always an explanation as to why this time it's different, but quite often it isn't. And, uh, you know, these distinctions are what, uh, what it's all about. Uh, so comparing and contrasting making analogies is, uh, on some level, that's, that's what it's about. Hey, everyone. It's Kula. We'll get back to the interview in just a second. Before we do though, have a question for you. Have you downloaded the how leaders lead app on your iPhone? If you haven't take 20 seconds right now, go to the app store, search for how leaders lead and download the how leaders lead app in the app every day. You'll get a two minute video that'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our podcast to inspire you and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work day. So go to the app store, start town leaders lead, download the how leaders lead app and start your day every day with two minutes of leadership wisdom. It'll take 20 seconds. Go to the app store, download the app, and you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight from how leaders lead. So you end up starting your own hedge fund. You call it Seneca. Why the name Seneca? Well, so in college, I took a I was taking a philosophy class and the professor mentioned that if you ever get a chance to read something by Seneca, you should. Seneca wasn't in the in the syllabus, but I stumbled on a shortly thereafter, I stumbled on a book by Seneca that was as a collection of short stories, but the the cover story, the cover of the title was on the shortness of life. And I read it, it's about 30 pages. It's it was and is the best 30 pages I've ever read. And it really is just about how people squander time, you know, whether it's chasing materialism, social climbing, they they they they they trade what they have such little of time for to to increase form over content. And the book was the essay was just so powerful in terms of, you know, the importance of using your time. So it was natural that that when I started the fund to call it Seneca, I'd like you to give us a little bit of insight on the kind of investing you did, because it was a lot of it was based on timing. I know all investments are, but you know, give us an example of the of one of your best deals and and how it sort of typifies what made you work. Our mandate was event driven investing. And when we started, when I started on my own, I guess it was 1990, Seneca was a successor fund to a department I had started. So Seneca formally started in '96, but it was a lot of Berger arbitrage, restructurings, recapitalizations, some bankruptcy. And it was really just opportunistic investing where it was bottoms up rather than top down. We weren't making macro calls on on interest rates or currency or even the broad market. We were trying to identify situations where we felt we had an edge or an insight and where there was a pending event that was either might happen or likely to happen or might not happen. And was a reason why we thought that a security today would be priced differently in the foreseeable future. And I think that being opportunistic was key because over time, age strategies get more competitive and you have to be flexible if not you perish. I think that the one that comes quickest to my mind was one of the first ones because it was so important to me in terms of getting confidence. But in 1991, Office Depot agreed to merge with Office Club. And it was a stock deal. There was a very big spread if you were to buy Office Club, the target and short Office Depot, you were locking in a very like a 30% unannualized spread. And that's because you couldn't borrow Office Depot. It was very hard to borrow it. If you bought Office Club without shorting Office Depot and Office Depot went down, you wouldn't make your spread . And I was obsessed with this spread because it was so big. Obviously, you had to have some comfort that from an antitrust perspective, they would get clearance. But we felt that they would. And as I was just obsessing over this deal, again, this is in 1991, the ability on the internet to access things was much different. But I cold called a couple of the founders of Office Depot. And I, after on some level harassing, he must have felt I was harassing. One of the co-found ers, I got him to hear me out. And I offered to pay him some small percent of the spread if I could borrow his Office Depot stock, i.e., I would just be borrowing it for the deal. When the deal closed, I would return it to him. He would have no, there'd be no implications on him as to what, up down sideways, he was just going to make money. And it took some convincing. And I was able to borrow a lot of stock and therefore to lock in this spread and the deal closed. And this was at the time a very, very big winner for us at a time where we were just starting to prove ourselves. And, you know, on some level, this was thinking outside the box a bit and trying and being creative. And it's a deal I'll never forget. I'm friendly with that founder today and it was a great win. You said that it gave you confidence early on. You know, how long did it take you, Doug, you know, being in business to where you literally could say, in terms of running your firm, that you were confident. The answer is a long time. I mean, look, I started, it's a good thing I didn't know how much I didn't know or I wouldn't have started the department. I started. All I knew up wasn't is that I wasn't going to make a bet that I couldn't afford to lose. I think that fear is a great motivator. And for those early years in particular, there was just a , I didn't need an alarm clock. I was in early. I don't, you know, I practically had a porta potty at the desk. I was afraid of leaving the desk. I don't think I went out for lunch for the first decade. That's a lot of turkey sandwiches. But I think that, you know, what Andy Groves , you know, famous saying that, you know, only the paranoid survive, you know, I think that you have to have that element of fear. The market, you know, doesn't care if you own something. And look, I was just determined to survive. And over time, things unfolded well, but it was, it was not linear. And it was, it looked, it was a an all in commitment. That's for sure. And, you know, one of the things that I was interested when I was doing my research is that, you know, in an industry where, you know, people just moved from one company to another company, you were able to keep your people for a long time. You had to staff the state with you over 15 years. I mean, you know, what was your key there? Because you know, you're, you're an intense summit. You got sharp elbows. I mean, you know, how do you keep these people? Look, I think people realize that I was all in, that I wasn't asking anything of anyone and that I wasn't demanding of myself. And I think that's a really got to be a premise. I think that they, I think that there was a purity to what we did, you know, we didn't have meetings. There were times that we would meet, but a anyone could come to that meeting. Look, I wanted to know what the secretary thought. There was transparency in our, you know, everyone got access to the positions. There was a culture of no bureaucracy and of really my goal was that I didn't have a sense of pride of authorship. It didn't matter if it was my idea or not. I wanted the best, most compelling, most rational ideas in our positions. And I think that that was refreshing to people. And I think people believed that, that I was being objective. They may at times have disagreed with me, but I don't think they questioned my motives. And I think that the, the lack of, you know, there was no form over content. We didn't have committees. There's that great line that, that a camel is a horse made by committee. I mean, I think that, you know, when you start getting committees and people, you know, for responsible for other people, there's, there's a lot that goes aw ry and that, that, is that undermines what you're trying to create. So I think that there was just a big belief in our, in our process and in ourselves. And I think that that's why people did Turndown Ken Griffin, who was trying to hire my people for years. You know, one of your great accomplishments in addition to building a fantastic firm is that you started Wall Street's first investment conference, you know, which is, it became renowned as the, as Wall Street's Woodstock, you know, everybody wanted to come to it, you know, and it's, it was called the Sone Conference, you know, tell us a story behind that. I worked with Ira Sone in the early, early 90s. I guess he was in his late 20s. He was re-diagnosed with a cancer that he had had as a young kid. And in the span of six months, this vicious sarcoma, he took his left arm, his, his wife had their first child , he lost his left lung, and then he died. And it was a just horrible, horrible time. I, I, during that time, when he was able, he was coming to the office before and after he was in the hospital. At the end, he was obviously was at the hospital. I became friendly with his parents. His parents were trying to raise money for the Hackensack Pediatric Cancer Wing, the Tomorrow's Children's Fund, at, in New Jersey. And they asked if I would get involved and, and how we could raise money. And I got a couple of friends to join me. And we came up with the idea of having an investment conference. Ira was incredibly passionate about the business. And we thought that, look, we certainly didn't envision what was going on fold. But we, we thought that it would be a, it's maybe a clever idea to try to have people come together, make some donation here, people's investment ideas. It would be a, a charity that kind of paid for itself. And I found myself on some level, just incredibly committed to make this work. And the first year, look, this is a time in, in 1995, a CNBC had just started. So, I mean, hedge fund managers were not TV personalities, an investment conference. When we first announced it, people didn't even really know what, what we meant. Our first year, I think we had 70 people attend. We got a bunch of our friends to speak. And we were, you know, begging people to attend, just so that we weren't going to embarrass ourselves. And it took a couple of years to get a little momentum. I think the second year was in the basement of a midtown hotel and the air condition didn't work. And it was, it was a debacle. But the third year, Doug, you have like 12 zone conferences across the world. There's 12 zone conferences and five continents. And it's, it's really taken off. And look, it 's been, it's certainly turned into something beyond what we could have hoped. We raised over a hundred million dollars. I was watching billions. And they, they, they referenced the zone conference. Basically, people come in and bring their ideas, right, Doug? And, and then you , you basically can move markets with a zone conference. I mean, people will, you know, say, this is really going to be a biggie. And boom, we moved markets quite a bit. We actually had a couple stocks that were held the next morning, because they couldn't open them. We then knew that we were, that we had arrived when, when we were moving markets before the conference, meaning stocks were moving in anticipation of whether or not a speaker would, would mention that stock. So yeah, it's been , it's been fun to see it unfold. You know, and, and I understand, I think I have this right, but the, the world class chess player, one of the greatest in history, Magnus Carlson, yes, attended one of the conferences and didn't you play him in a chess match? I mean, you know, he, he, he more than attended. He, he did a, an exhibition. He played three people blindfolded. I did on a separate occasion, I did play an alternate move match with Magnus as my partner against Kasparov. That was, that was certainly a highlight for me. What did you learn, you know, watching this guy in action? I mean, you know, what did he do that made you want to get better at what you do? He is, look, I don't, some, I think you can learn some things from Magnus, but you can also be reminded of some things from Mac by Magnus. He, I think you're just reminded that there's levels of everything. I think there's 600 million, there's over 600 million people in the world who play chess, which is staggering. But you know, when you think about it, you can play at any age, you can play with any physical disability you might have. There are cultures in certainly Russia and Asia, Eastern Europe that, that chess is the most important game there is and certainly the, the barometer of intelligence. And here's a guy who has, you know, is arguably the best player in the history of the game. And he is, has been called the Mozart of chess since he was, you know, probably seven years old. He instinctively is so sound, but he's also incredibly imaginative and, and, and willing to think about, you know, positions and sacrifices that others aren't. And you know, it's interesting. I was chatting with his, with his father. I mean, Magnus was, when Magnus was four, he had memorized all of the countries and capitals and states of, of everywhere and their populations. He would play with Legos for, for hours on a time. And then after he had built, you know, intricate, intricate, you know, contraptions, he would then guess what they weighed. And he was four years old. And you know, his father was, you know, introduced him to chess because he saw in Magnus this incredible ability to concentrate. And his father also highlighted that, you know, if Magnus had grown up in, in, in Russia where they're, they're seeking, or India where they, where they seek these talented kids, and then they, you know, they, they, they, they steer them to, you know, effectively become, you know, child prodigies where they're playing chess eight hours a day that, you know, if, if Magnus had been handled like that, you know, it would have ruined him. And that for Magnus, you know, his, his commitment to chess was, was a sign of his genius. It wasn't a formula for it. And you know, his father said that it, at, at dinners when he was six or seven years old, Magnus would take his food and eat at a, at a separate area with a chessbook. And I think that, you know, that the takeaway for me has been, you know, this is a kid that was incredibly self-taught, whose passion just dictated what he wanted to do. And his, his interests are narrow, but incredibly deep. You know, you can look at games that he played when he was 10 years old and the exact moves he made. And it's, it's staggering. So, you know, he's inspiring. You know, so you end up in 2015, Doug, you actually shut down the Seneca Fund to outside investors. You know, what drove that decision? I was the frog in the boiling water who didn't realize, you know, who took a long time to realize how hot it was. And I think that, you know, I finally realized that it was boiling. I had blinders on for so long. I had, I had been, you know, preoccupied with business , regardless. I mean, I, you know, would be with, with our kids. And, and, you know, I was thinking about the office, I would be playing golf on the weekend. And my head was in the office. And I really just realized that, that I couldn't make the sacrifices anymore. I couldn't make the commitment I didn't want to. And I sort of felt like I was retiring from the NFL without CTE. And it was, you know, look, it was a, a very tough decision in that I wasn't returning outside capital because I wanted to specifically do something else. I was returning outside capital because I didn't want to run money anymore, run outside money anymore. I, the, the, you know, absolute incessant, self- imposed pressure. You know, they, they, they talk about it. You know, the best days are, you know , the day you buy a boat and the day you sell a boat. Well, for me, the best decision I ever made was getting in the business and the second best was getting out. You know, when you have such a high intensity job like that, I mean, which you had, you know, you know, I've had people tell me that it takes a long time to get the adrenaline to leave your body. I mean, you know, how do you manage that kind of speed and intensity today? Professional pickleball, David. I don't know, look, I've always been focused and driven and there I'm, you know , and I'm, I'm also, I'm a curious person. There's, I have not been bored. I, it's been great. I feel, you know, it was an incredibly liberating decision. I, you know, going back to Seneca, I do value my time. Speaking of Sohn, Richard Rainwater spoke, you know, the legendary investor spoke years ago and he commented that he had visited his father on his father's deathbed and Richard was very successful at the time and Richard's father said to Richard, are you doing what you want to do? Because you're going to run out of time before you run out of money. And look, I feel that I am, look, I'm so much more in the present now. I 'm enjoying myself a lot more. You know, I feel fortunate to be able to make the decision. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Doug Hirsch in just a moment. Talking to Doug, I'm reminded of my conversation with Stanley Druckenmiller, who's widely regarded as the number one investor in the world. And despite all Druck's success, he was quick to talk about the importance of learning from your failures. These successful people have all failed. They learn from their failures, probably the most famous commencement speech ever with Steve Jobs, speech at Stanford when he talked about failure. And I would just say that A, admit that you've had failures and then go back and analyze those failures and why they happened and learn from them. The people that aren't self-aware, look, self-aware people like myself, and I do think I'm self-aware, I've had a lot of failures. But I use them to learn from as opposed to pretend they didn't happen. If you pretend they didn't happen, they're going to keep repeating themselves. So I would say that's the main thing is admit your failures and then learn from their failures. Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Stanley, episode 101 here on How Leaders Lead. Yet how do you cultivate your creativity and imagination? Because you're obviously well read, what do you do that really throughout your life that's really driven imagination? You've used that word three or four times in this conversation. I do enjoy reading, I do enjoy thinking, I've found chess to be shockingly fulfilling. It's a game where you can explain the rules to a 10-year-old in 10 minutes and there are fascinating novelties that continue to unfold. I think that, I don't know, I'm curious. Look, I don't know, I think the curiosity is a hugely important thing both in business and in life. And if you're not curious, the days are very long. I agree with that. This has been so much fun, Doug, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of questions. Are you ready for this? Probably not, but go ahead. The three words that others would use to describe you. Focused, driven, trustworthy. If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Connor McDavid. He's a hockey player. I know, I know. You're a badass. No question about that either. Okay, your biggest pet peeve. My kids overusing and misusing the word like. Who would play you in a movie? I got to go with Dougie Fresh. Everyone calls me Dougie, so that's, it would be a comedy. What's the number of teeth you lost playing hockey? One and a half, but they're the front ones. Who's the most famous tennis player you've taken down in a pickleball tournament? Rasti Sobek, who is a pro, he'll be flatter to hear that, but it's probably true. You get two front row tickets to anything you want. Where are you going and who are you going to take? Stanley Cup finals with my son. What's something about Jersey you'd only know if you were from there? Where to sit at the stone pony when you're hoping to see Springsteen? What's the one thing that you do just for you? Chess. Chess is my mistress. What's your most prized possession? I have a, I got my photo taken with Bobby Orr when I was 10 years old and we have a, it turns out we have a mutual friend and a year ago the friend introduced us. So when I went to see Bobby, I brought the photo from when I was from 50 years ago and we recreated the photo 50 years later. So it's, he got a big kick out of it. That sounds priceless. Now, if I turned on your, your radio and your car, what would I hear? Who podcasts or classic rock? What's something about you a few people would know? It's no secret that I don't know anything about cars, but my first job was actually working at a gas station. I was 14 and I was totally incompetent. I, at the time the gas caps were not connected to the cars and I probably had a dozen gas caps from, from cars that had driven when I started the gas caps. I would, I would cuff checking the oil, cars that I couldn't figure out where the oil was and I would, I would just tell them to better get a check next time. What's one of your daily rituals, Doug? Something that you never miss. Sunscreen. I wish I would have. I'm a ball albino. I wish I would have done that. All right. We're out of the lightning round. Great. Just a few more questions. I'll let you go here and get back to your pickleball, you know, prowess, you know, your partners with Dr. Holly Anderson. She's a great spouse of yours and you know, I actually interviewed her on, on, on episode 120 of this podcast and I got to tell you, I, when I think of the two of you, I think you may just be one of the top power couples in, in America. I mean, how do you, how do you make it work? First, I won the lottery when, when she said yes. Second, look, it's, it's, it's challenging because they're, you know, both careers were pretty, required big sacrifices. But I think, you know, trying to find some sense of balance in terms of, of things at an early stage. Look, we were, we knew that we couldn't have kids when we were younger. I would have been a horrible parent in my 20s or even early 30s. I think balance is, is, is a myth at that age. But I think mutual respect and trying to, to keep things light and appreciate humor. What's your unfinished business as you look forward, Doug? I got to win a pickleball championship for Larry and my goal is not to be a burden on our kids. You know, speaking of kids, you know, what's one piece of advice that someone gave you that you'd want to give your two kids? I don't, I think the importance of humor and of keeping things in perspective and, and lightness, it is so, there's so many challenges to, to our kids and, and their generation and social media has, has increased the stakes of everything and created these curated lives and, and, you know, and just got envy on steroids. So I, I think just trying to, to appreciate irony and to appreciate humor. Give me a specific example of how humor has worked with one of your kids. You know, one, one story that, that, that recently resurfaced is that both of our kids are dyslexic and that's a, that's a tough plight for, for a kid and requires a lot of work and, and standardized tests can often be, be very challenging. And I remember taking our daughter to, to a standardized test and I had shared with her, she knew the story years, you know, from years ago that I think that the first and only book I had read by the time I was 15 was Oron Ice, which was a effectively a, almost a picture book of, of Bobby Orr and she always found that kind of entertaining. So on the , in the cab ride to the test, I brought the book and I brought the book out and she smiled and I showed it to her and I showed her on page 12, you know, and now I put on my elbow pads and I was showing her, I was telling her that how I, this is, this is the book that, that made me fall in love with the written word and that this was, you know, this is why I became such a fan of Hemingway because the writing was so concise. And when we got to, to, to the, to the test center, she gave me a huge hug and thanked me and it was clear that, you know, that the stakes were, were less than before the cab ride and that the, that was perspective. And I think that humor is often under appreciated. You know, I think when I think of humor, it obviously starts with H. The other thing it starts with the H is heart. And one thing I'll say about you, Doug, you have a huge heart. I mean, you know, you started the SON conference and you've raised over 100 millions in, in, for cancer. And, and just on a personal level, you know, the, the struggles that I had with my wife, Wendy, you, you, you were always the, you know, one of the first to reach out and ask me how I was doing or how she's doing. And, and same when she passed. And, you know, I think that heart is a big part of what makes you go. You know, last question. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? The most successful team in the, in the history of sports has been the New Zealand All Blacks. And they have, their mantra is sweep the shed. And what it means is that nothing is too small even for their superstars. And I think that that's a huge thing. I mean, we've, we've got, you know, CEOs who have their own elevators. And they're so, you know, disconnected. And, and how can the culture there possibly work? I think that, you know, who, who do you want to be at a foxhole with? You know, there's that great story, the, the great joke about Lufthansa. So the Lufthansa pilot is speaking over the loud, over the loudspeaker that we've just lost our second engine, but we've been trained for this. We're okay. Please do not worry. We have everything under control. We've, we've been, we've been totally prepared for this. And he's taking them through and they land in the middle of the ocean. And he's reassuring everybody and of your leader, we're good. And then he says, everyone, you know, okay, everyone who can swim, please move over to the right wing. And everyone who can't swim, thank you for flying Lufthansa. And, you know, I think that people know if you're in it with them or not. And you can't fake it. I mean, that's what made Messier so good. That's what made, that's what makes leaders. Well, and you're, you're an excellent leader. And I thank you so much, Doug, for taking the time to be on this show. And I hope you win that pickleball championship with your Arizona team. Because poor Larry Fitzgerald, you know, he needs some money. Thanks for having me. Let me tell you, the big guy upstairs broke the mold when he made Doug. And I'm glad you got a chance to learn from him today and see how he makes excellence a habit. You know, excellence is a word we tend to throw around a lot in the business world. But when you stop and unpack it, you realize excellent isn't just a standard you aim for, nor is it merely a synonym for talent. Excellence is a habit. As you can see from Doug's remarkable career, it's what happens when you get your priorities straight, make sacrifices and stay disciplined even when it 's hard. This week, ask yourself where you'd like to see more excellence in your work. Then consider how your current priorities and discipline might need to change in order to make it happen. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders know that excellence is a habit. Coming up next on How leaders lead is Jared Belsky, the CEO of Acadia, which ad age named its performance agency of the year. Sometimes larger entities have this thing called a dysfunction tax and that you build up all these strange meetings and politics where people are spending half their day making power points for some boss they don't even know. Like, we 're just taking all that waste of dysfunction and investing it and obsessing about our clients and our employees. So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I may get a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO]