Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 0:00 

We want them to not only serve the best burger, fries and drinks, but we want them to do it in a way where our customers feel the difference. They feel that we care. So the loyalty goes both ways. Customers trust our brand because they know we're giving them the best you

David Novak 0:25 

every business wants loyal customers, but real loyalty, it isn't just given, it's earned, and the best companies know exactly how to do it. Welcome to how leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader you can be. My guest today is Lindsay Snyder, the owner and president of In and Out Burger. And if you know anything about in and out, you know It's no ordinary food chain. They built an almost cult like following and in today's show, you're going to see how and let me tell you, Lindsay's fresh approach to culture and people is a huge part of it, because here's the thing, customer loyalty doesn't just happen. It starts with how you prioritize your customers in every decision. Also, if you work with a family, this is a must watch episode, because when business and family mix, things can get messy, and Lindsay's got some honest and hard won wisdom on that front that you do not want to miss. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Lindsay Snyder, you

you know, Lindsay, you've got a heck of a background. You know, you've done a great job at in and out and in and out. For me, I just it's one of the concepts that I admire more than any in the world. But I'm almost positive you're the first guest on how leaders lead to be a fire eater. How in the world did you get into that? Well,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 2:04 

it's kind of a funny story, but for we have a thing called Club 48 that my family started, and it kind of died with them. And in 2009 I started it back up, and it was basically, you know, back then, my dad and my uncle would take, you know, the handful of upper management that there was back then, and they would take them to, like, Montana and go fishing and just have kind of a guys trip and so, lots of pranks and shenanigans, especially the new guys, you know, they really got it and stuff. So I brought him back in 2009 and did it up at my dad's ranch. And we have a different theme each year. And so one year it was like this, like kind of 1920s traveling circus thing, where we actually had a full blown circus out there, like we had a camel, we had aerialists, we had fire dancers, we had, you know, different animals. So it was, it was incredible, full blown circus. So I'm like, we're not going to have this thing without me performing, because I've got to entertain them, and this is too much fun. So I ended up doing a fire dance on pointe shoes, like in ballet pointe shoes. And that was the beginning of, you know, my interest with fire dancing. And then, of course, naturally, you end up eating fire. And I've seen

David Novak 3:29 

it. I've seen it on video, and it's it. You did it. You're very good at too. But I got a kick out of the screen. And the other thing that I learned is that you actually love the smell of gasoline. What is there about car racing that really is maybe impacted the way how you lead today? Is there something that you've kind of brought to the business that in terms of how you think or or what you should try, or, I

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 3:55 

don't know, I don't know if they really tie too much, but it was definitely, you know, something that was in my family. You know, my grandpa was a part owner of the original Irwindale Speedway, and actually had, you know, pretty much an in and out there at the track. It was like the snack bar with burgers and stuff. But everyone knew it was basically like in and out. So my dad grew up there, and he would wrench on cars and run his own cars of the track. And so, you know, I grew up around car, the love of of muscle cars and racing and stuff. So, um, so, yeah, I don't know that it really ties, other than we have a huge car culture because we're, you know, California's first drive through. And, you know, you see the old pictures of just amazing cars in the picture, you know, it was just, those are just the daily cruisers back then. And you look and you're like, Oh my goodness. So, you know, so it's tradition for us to put, you know, awesome cars on the T shirts. And there's just, there's a very strong car culture. But I don't. Think that drag racing connects too much to my leadership, but, but I think people, people like it.

David Novak 5:08 

You know, I can't wait to talk to you about what you're doing, it in and out, but, but first, I want to take you back and you know, what's the story from your childhood, your early days that shaped the kind of leader that you are today.

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 5:21 

You know, there's, there's really something that my dad and my uncle, my uncle was 18 months younger than my dad. There's something that both of them did with me from a very early age, and it was that they would have adult conversations with me as a child, and, you know, they didn't talk to me like I was some little kid that that didn't know, or, you know, what they said didn't matter. You know, they would ask me questions, and they would talk about real life things, business things, and it really made me feel valued. It made me feel like what I said mattered. And, you know, they may not have known, you know, obviously, that they were going to depart this world a lot earlier than than most, but, but God knew. And you know, it's just, it's, it's amazing to me that, you know, they had those conversations with me, and then one day I would have to, you know, run the company without them, but the fact that they instilled that, you know, that what I said to them mattered, whether it be with business or whatever that we were talking about, I think it left, it left an impact. You know,

David Novak 6:39 

absolutely, and your grandparents started the business in 1948 but what's one of the earliest memories you have been inside the restaurant?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 6:50 

I just remember going through the drive through probably the two lanes and getting my burger, and, of course, loving it, and, yeah, I mean, a fun fact is, because of my family, we had our spread and our refrigerator at home, and my dad would barbecue the meat patties, like side by side with steaks. And so we would get our steaks from the same, you know, the butchers we would have. We would get the cuts from our meat and stuff. And so, you know, though, I can still remember exactly how my dad, like, seasoned everything. And he would call him Sam's samples. So I would just be hanging around like a puppy by the barbecue, like just waiting, and he would, he would cut up some pieces and go, Okay, you got to try and let me know. So I think that that's a cool memory for me, because it was kind of taking a piece of the restaurant, taking a piece of the business home and and being able to, you know, have it right there. And not everybody had that, so it was cool. Yeah,

David Novak 7:56 

that's a that's a little extra added benefit, you know, that's fantastic, you know, Ed, you know you you mentioned that unfortunately, your dad and your uncle left this earth, you know, way, way too early, and you became the owner of this iconic brand through personal tragedy, really. I mean, for those who who don't know your story, will you share a little bit about that part of your life? Yeah,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 8:24 

my dad was only 48 when he passed away. My uncle passed away six years before him. So I was 11 when my uncle died in a plane crash, and I was currently living in Northern California with my dad and my mom, and we lived in Shingletown, California, tiny, tiny, tiny town, and my dad had basically made the decision to move my mom and I up there and just do the family thing, live on a ranch, and him and my uncle kind of would bicker and have, like, probably some normal brother stuff, but because it's brother stuff and it's business, and, you know what, what their dad would want, and, you know, maybe disagreements there. I think my dad was very old school and wanted to stick with tradition, and my uncle was kind of like, okay, let's go. Let's be, you know, let's have this many stores by this time, and let's lease more than buy. And my dad was of a different mindset, more like my grandfather. So my dad basically said, like, okay, you know, you do this. I'm moving the family here. I'm choosing my family. And so it was, it was a really, really good thing for a long time, but when my uncle died, that kind of set my dad into a spiral, and he he relapsed and and started using again. He was using prescription pills now. Mind you, he had broken his back. He'd paralyze his arm from a motorcycle accident, so he had actual physical things, but he. Got addicted and and then, you know, it was just, it was just too easy to numb the pain of kind of unresolved stuff between him and his brother and and his brother was really the only other one that understood what they went through in their childhood. My grandfather, sadly, was abusive, because he was abused severely as a child. So, you know, there was a lot there. And my dad just, you know, was a lot of pain, losing his baby brother and them not being on great terms when it happened. Was, was tough. So, so

David Novak 10:39 

here you are then, I guess, around 17 years old, right? And what was that like when it when it finally dawned on you that she's, you know, this is my company now?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 10:51 

Well, it was a little slower. So like, yeah, my my dad finally lost his battle to drugs when I was 17. And, at that point, yeah, you know, it was all the things that I was thinking of doing in school, just kind of went to the side and the company part. There were trustees. My brother in law was one of them. And it was really kind of kind of baby steps into it. Honestly, I I moved down south. My grandma was still alive, so I worked in donations, and would try to procure donations for the foundation, so for the charity, stuff we did and that. And then I went back into the store, because I worked in the store when I was 17 as well up in reading. And so I was trying to learn all the things in the store. And then, yeah, I was, it was in 2006 that my grandmother died, and at that point I was pregnant with twins, and they asked me. They're like, you know, are you? Do you want to do this? You know, are you? And I'm thinking, Well, my uncle was 24 when my grandpa died and he took over. But I'm like, I am about to have my first kids, not one, but two at a time. So I'm like, No, I this is not, this is not the time. So I waited, actually, and I waited till 2010 and so 2010 now you're talking about the increments of how much ownership there was and all of that. But by that point, you know, I had already managed our merchandise and catalog department, which was kind of like a little business within the business within the business with all of our merchandise and in our store that that sold merch. So that was, that was actually really fun. I did that for a couple couple of years, and then I went and worked in almost every single department of the company, which was really, really fun. Accounting, not that fun, but there are lots of, lots of departments that were fun. I got my forklift certification. I did drywall with the carpentry department and the grave graveyard shift, like I did a lot of really fun stuff, and got to meet people that worked for the company for a long time. So it was a special season for sure. And, of course, went back into the stores again and made sure to cover all the positions that I hadn't worked. And, yeah, so you, you

David Novak 13:27 

were, you were, I believe, 27 years old when you became president the company. And, you know, I remember, you know, when I was coming up in PepsiCo, I was a little bit different, you know, I that was sort of a blue suit and white shirt, red tie culture. And, you know, I couldn't be caught dead without my shirt tail tucked out and the wrong color thigh. I just was kind of a duck out of water. But I, I found a way to create my own identity. You know, you come up, you know, in a family business, you know, how hard was it for you to really, you know, forge your own identity and and be Lindsay in and, and have everybody see you as the president. It

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 14:08 

was interesting. I'm not very tall. I'm blonde. And, you know, there was, there was a time there where I was trying to maybe dress the part like I would get some some business suits and dress differently. But then I finally just found I'm like, You know what? This is a family business. My uncle wanted to dress up. My dad wanted to dress down like I think I'm just going to do what I feel comfortable with, and I'm going to encourage the same. So we kind of brought a more casual work environment to our offices, and it's not the outside, right? It's the inside. And so we want our people to be happy. We want our people. Able to know that we're all going towards the same thing. We want to take care of our customers, and whether we're in the store handing the customer their order or behind the scenes making things right for our customer, I just want people to know that they're cared for, that they're loved, and that we're giving them this opportunity to do this in a fun way, you know. And so I think I just started kind of connecting my identity, really, in this world, first, with God, and then from there, it just brought me to a place where I didn't really care what people thought like. I don't care if you feel like I should dress up, I don't feel that I need to try to please everyone. What you see is what you get. And hopefully you know you know what I'm about and that I really love people and want to hold things to a standard that my my family would be proud.

David Novak 16:01 

You know, Well, you've certainly done that, because everybody continues to rave about in and out, and everybody continues to talk about your product. And you know, you mentioned that you were the very first drive through. And then, you know, well, when I think of in and out, I think of just out and out, brilliant execution. You make the best burger, fresh burger, fresh food. Cut fries, you know, great shakes. You know, you don't have a lot of variety in your menu. How have you managed the challenge of of doing the basics better than anybody, which you're known for, and then innovating? Yeah, I think,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 16:41 

you know, somewhere there's that saying, Keep It Simple Stupid, you know, I think it's like, I don't want to veer from what my family started, you know, I want to hold true to the things that brought us to where we are today. And, you know, the bigger we get, of course, the more intentionality and time and, you know, focus we have to put into it. But it really is about serving the best quality and service with a smile and treating our customers like they're our guests, and remembering that they are the ones that sign our paycheck. You know that we say that here at in and out, because it's our customers that have brought us over 75 years of business and and have allowed us to open in other markets and grow to where we are today, you know? So it's, there's a lot of gratitude we have towards our customers. So with that, it's like, I run all the decisions that we make through this filter of, what would my family want? What would they do? You know, is this something that that they would be okay with? Or is it like, Nah, we're not doing that, you know. So I feel like that's a great process for me, because it does keep me of, you know, kind of a traditional mindset where we're not looking at all the new bells and whistles or things others are doing, but really trying to,

David Novak 18:23 

you know, well, you're, you mentioned that your your grandfather and your father were pretty conservative, you know. And you had your uncle who was more of a swashbuckler, wanting to grow faster, you know, you got a great concept. You print money. I mean, anybody would look at your, your your balance sheet the unit economics of in and out would say, Oh, my God, they should be growing like, you know, you know, you know, all you know, just growing like leaps and bounds. You're growing. You're on a consistent basis, but you're not, you know, going crazy on, on new unit growth. You know, how have you, or how have you balanced that? And do you see yourself turning more into your uncle down the road or sticking more like your your dad and grandfather? Yeah, definitely

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 19:06 

more like my dad and my grandfather. It's funny, because I think sometimes people's perceptions, because we might be in a new market or a new state, they go, Oh, they're opening all over. And it's like, no, we're really not. Like, if you look at if you look at where our warehouses are, because we can only go as far as the few warehouses we have can serve can reach. So, you know, if we've got a truck driving, you know, X amount of hours to this market out here, well, it makes sense that they would go to another market that's close to that, either on the way or somewhere out there. Because if they're going to drive all that way, it makes sense to deliver product to another store out there. And so that's, you know, there's a lot of strategic planning and looking at those markets. Um. Um, but it's not something that we, you know, lose sight of and think we're just gonna grow, grow, grow, grow, like it's actually so it's pretty calculated growth rate and and there's times where we're not hitting the amount of stores we planned on opening, and we're okay with it, you know, we're okay with it. And even so, there's been times where we're like, hey, you know what? We're going to slow down. We're not going to worry about opening this many stores this year, because we really want to focus and fine tune some of the things that we know are so important, and we want to just make sure that with our growth, that you know that that is right where it should be. So we're definitely not afraid to slow down and just make sure if there's a tune up that needs to take place where everyone knows, like, whoa, you know, they're they're not opening those two or three stores this year because, you know, we really need to refocus and make sure that we're not forgetting that the bunt toast, you know, is supposed to be this way, because Harry wanted it that way and and having that consistency out there. Hey everyone, it's cool. We'll get back to the interview in just a second before we do though, I have a question for you. Have you downloaded the how leaders lead app on your iPhone? If you haven't take 20 seconds right now, go to the App Store, search for how leaders lead and download the how leaders lead app. In the app every day, you'll get a two minute video that'll give you a leadership insight from one of our amazing guests from our podcast to inspire you and to really get your mind in the right place before you start your work day. So go to the App Store, search how leaders lead download the how leaders lead app, and start your day every day with two minutes of leadership wisdom, it'll take 20 seconds go to the App Store, download the app, and you'll be able to watch every day, just like me, the leadership insight from how leaders lead.

David Novak 21:52 

You know, as you, you know, moved into the president role, do you recall a decision that you made that that that really gave you confidence that you were up for the up for the job itself. I mean, it was there sort of a pivot point where you say, hey, you know what? I've got this.

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 22:10 

There's actually a lot and, you know, it's not because of me. I honestly feel like, God, um, you know, just put stuff on my heart at times, and whether it be one thing that felt like turning a ship around, which took some time, and that was really coming from a place of servant leadership versus task, and, you know, dictator and, you know, putting the task before the people. Now, we've always said we care about our internet family, but I think that, you know, even my grandfather, my dad, my uncle, like my uncle, was super charismatic. Out of the three of three of them, he was the most charismatic, empowering leader. My grandpa was, you know, he was stern, he was passionate, you know, the two together. It was like he, he was a hard worker. Very hard worker. He was probably the one that, you know, got his hands the dirtiest and built, you know, he built it up, you know. But my grandmother was the nurturer. She was, you know, very sweet and loving and cared about everyone. And she was the one that brought the hugs and, you know, remembering people's, you know, their kids names and all of that. And, and my dad was very much the humble leader that wanted everyone to feel like they they mattered, whether they were in the store or whether they were in the warehouse. They all mattered. And he had a huge heart for the people that maybe didn't get as much attention, kind of the underdogs and and he was also a stickler for quality. So he was matched with his dad, with with quality. And for me, you know, I, I love my mom, and others have said, you know, you're really a mix of all of them. And I, I like that, because I love all of them very much, and I'd love to think that I have pieces of all of them, but, but shifting us into a servant leadership type of, you know, leadership for all of our people was was a big undertaking, and that was something that, like I said, it wasn't flipping a switch, it was turning a ship around. And it took, it's

David Novak 24:26 

really interesting, Lindsay, because from the outside, you know, what I would surmise about in and out, and what you know, everybody I know in the industry thought about in and out was that your your culture has always been incredible, and that, you know that servant leadership would have been like, you know, the number one thing that would be driving that, but you're saying that wasn't the case, and and as a leader, that was the, maybe one of the biggest moves that you made, is. Is the so do you think the culture has been enhanced then because of your leadership,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 25:04 

hands down? And I don't like, I don't like tooting my own horn or anything like that. But if you did ask people that were around for, you know, the years to see, you know, my uncle, my dad, their time, even my grandpa's time and on, that would be something that they they would definitely attribute to my leadership, changing. What

David Novak 25:26 

specific steps did you take to really make that a reality? Because it's one thing to say it. It's another to have people really feel it and do it. One

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 25:33 

was just me being very vulnerable and being open and sharing. You know, get talking about weaknesses and strengths. Us doing strength finder, personality tests, all those the world, the way the world sees you. You know, the disc all we've done so many our training department does a lot with management. And so from doing that and me sharing very early on, like, here's what I struggle with. You know, here's here's what I am good at, here's what I struggle with. What about you and us just bringing those things to the surface and then saying, Okay, how can we communicate with others? Because the way that your style of communication and receiving a message might not be the same for this guy over here. So it was really having that wear different hats with different people, and knowing that you know, anytime you're putting the task before the person, you're not fostering a culture of care. You know you're just not and if this is a family, it's like, I can say that my grandpa and my dad and uncle grew up in a dysfunctional family, you know, God bless them, but they did, and, you know, so yelling, and you know, some of those things could have been normal. And so there was a lot of years where divisional managers or managers might have yelled at someone in a case of discipline, so it was a lot of working on that too, like how we're going to discipline, and not just the discipline, but coaching them. And if you're just handing out one right up after the other, there's something wrong with you, not them, you know, like we're not doing it right if they continue to get in trouble, because that means we're not teaching them, or whatever we're teaching, we're not doing it in a way where they're receiving it. And so we've done a lot on communication. We've done a lot on care. We have broken down servant leadership for sure, where that's, you know, wanting to lift others up to be in an even better place than than where you are, you know, what? What could someone have done to make you better back when you were in their place? You know? So there's a lot. I mean, I could probably spend an hour just going into all the different workshops and things that we've done, but, but it's really us highlighting the person a little bit of the golden rule in there. You know, there's a lot of biblical principles we have incorporated in our workshops and off site meetings. So,

David Novak 28:21 

yeah, one of the things that you know, anybody knows that they look at it out as your customers. They don't just love you. They they really love you. And you know, what do you think is the key to you fostering the kind of loyalty you have that get you these raving fans?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 28:40 

Oh, man. Well, I think part of it is, you know, we're loyal to the customer. We are not cutting corners. We're not compromising, you know, food costs go up. We deal with it. We don't look for something cheaper. We kind of just, we, we deal with it, and obviously see, see things that you know, other people might do to mitigate that loss, and we just, we shoulder it, because we're not going to compromise, and we're not going to change things in that way. You know, we're going to keep the best quality. We're going to, you know, pay our people more because we're asking more of them than other places. We want them to not only serve the best burger, fries and drinks, but we want them to do it in a way where our customers feel the difference. They feel that we care. They feel that we know they're the reasons we're getting paid. So so the loyalty goes both ways, you know what I mean. So it's like, I think the customers trust our brand because they know we're not doing what everyone else is doing, and we're. Not giving them a lesser product, we're giving them the best

David Novak 30:05 

your customer insiders, they're well aware of the secret menu. Tell us what that's all about the secret

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 30:13 

menu. It has really morphed, I think, because of the, probably the online situation, social media, all of that. It's just blown up, you know, over the last 20 years. But some of the things on the secret menus started way, way, way, way back, and animal style was one of them, animal

David Novak 30:35 

style. What the hell is animal style?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 30:39 

Yeah, animal style, you can request with any of the burgers. Whether it's hamburger, cheeseburger, double double double meat, it's fried mustard into the patty. So as you put the patty down, you season it, and then the mustard swirl goes on the top. And then, so when you turn it over, it just kind of cooks into it. It's tasty. And then also comes with grilled onions, extra spread pickles, and, yeah, I mean, it's, it's pretty popular

David Novak 31:14 

animal style, what's it? What's, what's it, what's another example of the secret video protein

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 31:18 

style, that's, you know, without the bun, it's just wrapped in lettuce. There's one that I don't do because I don't like tomatoes, but it's tomato wrap. So instead of the bun, it's whatever burger you choose. Could even be animal style, but it's two slices of tomato, and then that's wrapped. Oh,

David Novak 31:37 

I love it. I love it. So you get a little you figure out what you can do. What if you go there a lot, but meanwhile, we're going to keep serving those burgers and fries and shakes as fast as we can. I'd have to imagine you have a lot of debates internally, and I'm sure you get customer feedback as well, pushing you for mobile ordering. And as I understand it, that's not something that you're doing at this stage. What's your what's your thought process? And tell us about the is there a debate going on internally, or is it just something that you're just not going to do?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 32:09 

Of course, I can see why people would want it. I can totally understand that. But the thing within and out is the experience and face to face with our associates, whether you're in your car or you're walking up, is part of who in and out is, and if we take away that interaction in there or now Not giving them the full on in and out experience. And so our customers, though, some of them, might really want that. It's just an area that we don't want to we don't want to compromise. We don't want to let go, because we're compromising for what the speed for, you know, to get it out there faster, and it's like we're already trying to do it faster. Another thing

David Novak 33:00 

that you're not you haven't changed from the beginnings, is that you have bible verses on your packaging. Give me an example how faith plays a role in how you lead.

Unknown Speaker 33:14 

Yeah. So

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 33:16 

my uncle put the first Bible verses in the late 80s before he passed away, actually, he became a Christian. And my grandma was always a believer. My grandpa accepted Jesus on his deathbed. My dad was a believer, just, you know, struggled, obviously, with with substance abuse. So it was very hard, because he had a lot of guilt, you know, but they all, thank God, we're all believers. And so for me, you know, I was raised in it, and, you know, had my own struggles with, you know, the divorces and all of that. And it was just tough, but my faith was always there. And so I added, you know, quite a few verses to different packaging. You know, the think the first one I added was the to the fry boat, and that one tied pretty closely to some of the stuff I'd gone through. And so if someone's listening, you're gonna check out what's under the fry boat and go read it, because you'll understand when you know a little bit about my testimony. But yeah, I mean, there's, there's another one on the water cup that actually ties to water. And, you know, there's others that are just, you know, and different things, but there's a message that's just very powerful in each one of them. And I think it's, it's one of those things where my uncle said, you know, we're a Christian company, we're private, we're family company. And this is just an expression. Of who we are and his faith. And, you know, it's underneath. It's kind of hidden. So it's not out in people's faces like, you know, making them read it as they're taking a bite or drinking, but if they want to know, you know, they can look it up.

David Novak 35:14 

Lindsay, do you do you pray on the decisions that you make? Or, again, is there any time when you prayed on something, that you did something maybe differently than you were going to do the first time. Yeah, for sure. Could you tell a story about that? One

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 35:27 

of the things I think I've shared quite a bit, and it's, it's just something that was so it was something that that God made so clear, and it was, you know, my husband and I were going to start slave to nothing, and we didn't have the name yet, but we knew that we were going to fight substance abuse. He lost a brother to drugs. I lost a father. Since then, he lost another brother. It's just heartbreaking, but we really wanted to fight that and have a foundation to, you know, help other families and save lives. So it was in that that we're praying, and God just like dropped it on me and said, You're gonna fight human trafficking. And I'm like, what? And I didn't even know that much about it. Honestly, I had very little exposure to it. And so at that point, you know, I jumped in, and we just started finding out a lot. We randomly got connected with a couple different people that had foundations fighting trafficking, and then, and then it was just like, Okay, this is what we're doing, you know, and then we came the name came to us, that it was slave to the number two nothing. And the two represents the fact that we're fighting two different things, both substance abuse and human trafficking. And both are things that people are enslaved to. You know, the drugs get a hold of someone and really doesn't want to let go until they're dead, unless there's something that that breaks that chain. And then with trafficking. The same thing, these people are enslaved to a person, and they really feel like there isn't a way out. So we want to be the ones to break those chains. And well, that's

David Novak 37:12 

that's great that you're, you're using your resource to tackle those two big issues. And so good, good for you for for doing that. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Lindsay Snyder in just a moment. As black history month comes to a close, I'm reflecting on what legendary Condoleezza Rice had to say about growing up in segregated Birmingham, and the tremendous insight this is for any leader. I

Condoleezza Rice 37:39 

tell my students to this day, if you're trying to be twice as good, you will work twice as hard, you will therefore be twice as confident and twice as prepared. And then they said, there are no victims. You may not be able to control your circumstances, but you can control your response to your circumstances. And if you consider yourself a victim, then you have given control of your life to somebody else. Those two lessons I took with me that it was a kind of armor in their way of preparing us for what they thought was likely to be a very hostile world for a long time to come. Now, as it turned out, we had the great civil rights legislation. We've made a lot of progress, but still that if there's a barrier, you go around it, over it or through it, but you don't let it stop you. I learned that in circumstances of segregated Birmingham, and I'm grateful because I took those lessons into life with me. Go back and

David Novak 38:35 

listen to my entire conversation with Condi, episode 121, here on how leaders lead. You know, you've got this company. You're have over 400 stores now you're, you are growing at a pretty steady rate, you know, but you're getting bigger, you know. How do you keep the big company small?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 38:55 

Yeah, that is something I just spoke with our regional managers today about. You know, that is the challenge each and every year that, you know, I'm just always thinking of how we can make people feel family, have them feel like invested, as if they're, you know cousins of of Harry and Esther. You know sons, daughters, relatives, whatever, that they're a part of this and that it's something that they can be proud of. And we tell our managers to have an owner's mindset, and we want them to know that they're empowered to take care of the customer, not just the managers but our associates. We truly empower them to do whatever is necessary to take care of our customers. And you know, in all of that, whether it's training, whether it's, you know, a store meeting, we have burger television, which is the way that we communicate with all associates. You know, over 40. 1000 associates each period I'm on, all of those giving some sort of message or encouragement or highlighting something going on, they're anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes and it has any kind of news within the company. Shows a new store opening. We'll focus on different training, things, just kind of, you know, we'll go over a lot of the same stuff over and over, because it's that repetition that that sinks it in for for everyone. Yeah, it's, you know, we have a lot of events too. We have sporting events. We have company picnics. Our band plays at some of those company picnics and events. And we have community engagement, where we do volunteer stuff to help the communities, some of the foundations that we support. So there's a lot of stuff to really bring people together and and we're very intentional with our leaders, to bring people in, make them feel like family. So, you know, I couldn't do it alone. It really, it's really because of the awesome leaders we have here, all being behind that vision and us partnering together. You know,

David Novak 41:14 

you want to create this family feel, yet you got to make tough decisions at times. And you know, you mentioned, like the mobile order, and you said, well, that got a quick No, and I kind of got the sense that you gave it the quick No, you know, how do you think about the need as a leader to create emotional distance from your people so that you can make tough calls? What's your what's your thinking about emotional distance? I don't think I entertain it. Okay. Well, that's fine. You know, some people think that they really can't get close to their people, because if they get close to their people, if people will take advantage of them or they won't be able to make the tough decision that you got to make. I mean, how do you think about that?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 41:53 

I'm a pretty tough person. Now, not going to say that. I don't get surprised at times. Or, you know, you know, there's definitely been fair share of betrayal and stuff like that, but I'm not gonna let the few people that screw me over change the positive and connected, close relationships I could have with all the good ones. You know what I mean? So, um, it's kind of like that warning label, like, you know, the plastic bag, don't put this over your head, blah, blah, blah, because someone, someone did it, you know, whatever. The thing is, you read the warning, you're like, really, seriously. So for me, it's kind of like that. It's like, I'm not, because there are some that will take advantage or hurt me. I'm not going to make everyone else miss out on what we could have.

David Novak 42:44 

Makes sense. And you know, this has been so much fun, Lindsey, and I want to have a little bit more of you with I always do this lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this? Okay, okay, the three words that best describe you, honest,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 42:58 

loving,

David Novak 43:00 

bold. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be? No one. What's your biggest pet peeve? Unwashed hands? Who would play you in a movie? Maybe

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 43:11 

Rachel McAdams, I don't know

David Novak 43:13 

what's something you'd only know about in and out as the owner of the company.

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 43:18 

Just how many things I do and deal with,

David Novak 43:24 

what was the price of the very first hamburger at in and out back in 1948 25 cents. If you could be the bassist in any band, who are you going with?

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 43:34 

I'd say flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers. What

David Novak 43:37 

is your hidden talent? Hidden,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 43:38 

hidden. I can write backwards. I'm ambidextrous. I don't know what's the one

David Novak 43:46 

thing you do, just for you, I get regular massages. Your most prized possession, my family, if I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear a lot, but no, country. What's one of your daily rituals? Something that you'd never miss pretty

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 44:00 

much putting my makeup on.

David Novak 44:04 

All right, that's the end of the end of the live you round. I got a few more questions, and we'll wrap this up. You wrote a book last year called the in and outs of In and Out Burger. And a lot of people you know who navigated everything that you've navigated, you wouldn't be so open about it. You know, what made you be so vulnerable to share all the all the ins and outs of your company, like,

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 44:29 

as you talk about the loyalty with our customers, there's been a lot of people trying to tell the in and out story for years, and they just get it so wrong. You know, there was a book that tried to tell the internet story, and that just pissed me off, to be honest, because it was, there were so many inaccurate, inaccuracies, lies, and just, I'm like, Who is she to tell this story anyway? You know? So I think it had, it just had this sense of its time. It's time to tell the in and out. Story, and it just felt right. And, you know, I wanted our customers, because a lot of our customers feel like they're a part of it, you know, they've been going since this long, and they went to this store back then, and we only had this many, and so there's a very nostalgic feel, I think, within and out. And I just felt like we kind of owed it to our customers to give it to them. And what do

David Novak 45:24 

you think you uncovered or brought up that everybody else who'd try to write about in and out had missed a lot of

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 45:32 

the personal stuff? You know, there were, there were things that were painting my dad a certain way, and I was really able to share who he is, you know, who he was as a person and a father, and, you know, some of the drama and the family, some of the abuse. And I share this stuff because I feel very free and healed through what I've been through, and that's all attributed to God, and I want people to know that that's there for them, and they don't have to hide the dirt. You know, I feel like when you hide that stuff, there's shame associated with it, there's fear associated with it. And I want to be as fearless as possible, and and want people to be free. You

David Novak 46:19 

know, you talked about your father and your family and your mom. You're a mom with four kids. How has that impacted the way you show up as a leader? You

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 46:28 

know, there are a lot of things in parenting that I've been able to correlate with teaching. You know, some of our leaders kind of how I shared wearing different hats. You know, all four of my kids are totally different. So, you know, customizing my approach talking to one of them, discipline with one of them. You know that totally there's a parallel with working with people here at in and out and and being able to see like, look, as soon as you come with this person, this way, they're shutting down. This person is so stubborn and hard headed if you don't come off, you know, direct and deal with it and then stay alongside, you know, whatever, there's just, there's so many things I can find that connection.

David Novak 47:10 

Lindsay, last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader? Lonely

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 47:16 

at the top is a lie, because you're only lonely at the top if you're isolating yourself. And I choose to not isolate myself. I i Open up and stay pretty connected to one people in in ministry, but also here at work and and because of that, I don't, I don't feel lonely. You know, that's

David Novak 47:43 

great. You know, Lindsay, I want to congratulate you on on continuing to take in and out to higher levels. You know. You know, I used to be in the restaurant business myself for quite a while, and people would say, would you ever acquire in and out? I said, No, no possible way we'd only screw it up. The culture they have, the what they have. You know, it's just, it's, it's in a bottle. And anybody that screws them up and tries to take it national won't be able to do it. And because you, you have that, that that formula, and you've perpetuated it, and congratulations on on the job you're doing, and keep up the good work. I always love going to in and out when I'm out in your neck of the woods.

Lynsi Snyder-Ellingson 48:28 

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.

David Novak 48:37 

In and Out has the kind of customer loyalty most businesses only dream about, but like Lindsay says, loyalty goes both ways. If you want loyal customers, it starts with your loyalty to them. When you're making decisions, when you're setting priorities, make sure you're putting your customers interests first, for in and out, that means refusing to cut corners on ingredients, and even saying no to ideas like mobile ordering so they don't compromise the overall experience. But what does it mean for you? Take a look at one business decision you're making right now, big or small, then ask yourself, How does this impact your customer? Are you making the easy choice or the choice that earns their trust? Let me tell you, when you prioritize customers, they notice and in return, they reward you with Trust, enthusiasm and lifelong loyalty. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders understand that customer loyalty is a two way street. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Glenn Fogel, CEO of booking holdings, which includes booking.com kayak, Priceline and open table.

Glenn Fogel 49:54 

You know, for many years, we've been an ad in the Super Bowl for our booking.com Company. I just recently got the most recent one that is being looked at for the upcoming game and all that. And they said, What do you think? And I always say, it doesn't matter what I think. It's irrelevant. It's what have you come up with? And is this worth the money to spend on it, or should we sell the spot or not? It's nice to you to ask me, but what the do I know?

David Novak 50:22 

So be sure you subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business, so that you will become the best leader you can be. You.