Mark Shapiro 0:00  

It's an eat what you kill world, right? People have to deliver now. They need to know the expectations. They need clear feedback. They need performance reviews. They need resources and tools, right? They need they need help getting there. But as long as everyone understands upfront what we're aiming for, what the measure and the metrics of success are,

Mark Shapiro 0:21  

then it's full throttle to get there, and if you get there, everyone wins.

David Novak 0:33  

We all want better results, but a lot of leaders skip the most important step to getting them. Welcome to How leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader that you can be. My guest today is Mark Shapiro, one of the top minds in media and entertainment. He's the president and managing partner of WME group, plus the president and COO of TKO, which owns top sports brands like UFC and WWE, and prior to all that, he was the creative force that helped make ESPN the powerhouse that it is today. Now look, you don't carve out a career like that unless you know how to get results. And as you'll see today, Mark delivers those big results in part because he sets clear expectations. If you want to create a results driven culture, and let's be honest, who doesn't keep watching and see how it's done? And I gotta tell you, this episode is packed with great stories, including how Pardon the Interruption got its start at ESPN and a real face palm moment for Mark at Six Flags. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Mark Shapiro, you

David Novak 2:03  

I want to dive into you know how you're leading your your two incredible companies, but first, I want to learn more about your story and find out what really, really makes you tick. And I want to take you all the way back to the beginning mark. You know that, what's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader you are today.

Mark Shapiro 2:20  

 Well, let's start from the fact, or, excuse me, start with the fact that my parents were separated when I wasn't even like, one years old. That's not a good start, right there, right? And my parents got divorced early on, and my two older sisters and myself went to live with my dad, and ultimately, he got remarried. And that's usually not the case back in the 70s, right? I mean, everybody, kind of, for the most part, stayed with their mom moms, not a ton of moms were working in those days. And my mom had a full time job. She was a teacher and and in the downtown Chicago, and we were kind of left by ourselves a lot. And ultimately, the decision was made that we were going to go live with my dad and my stepmom full time, and that was that was tough. But, you know, you need adversity right to get going in life. And I got it right out of the gate. Now it sounds like it, and, you know, speaking of adversity and a little bit of pain, you've got deep Chicago roots. And you know, as a lifelong Chicago Bears fan, you know what's that taught you about persistence and working through the adversity? Love to hear you say that, because, by the way, that is exactly what it taught me. I bleed cubby blue. So I grew up a massive Chicago Cubs fan and a massive Chicago Bears fan. And all it was is, I mean, the cubs are the lovable losers, right? You went to a Cubs game to see Wrigley Field, not to see them win, so to go your whole life just praying for for a for a playoff game, let alone a World Series. That was a long wait. I finally got a World Series in 2016 after 100 plus years of the Cubs never winning a World Series, but you keep rooting and you keep cheering. And just like I taught my kids and I made them Cubs fans like then the payoff means that much more. Same with the bears. Walter Payton was the best running back ever in my book. I named my dog after him, Peyton, and I'm all about the bears. And for the first 15 years of my life, the bears lose every single year. And then finally, in 1985 with refrigerator Perry and Jim McMahon in the Super Bowl shuffle. We got that Super Bowl victory. So the payoffs always so incredible when you forever are cheering and desperately hoping for a win. So you're a hell of a motivational leader. No question about it. You can see it right here as we're talking so you take over the bears. They got a losing culture. There's no question about it. Now, if you were going to turn a losing culture into a winning culture, as a leader, what would you do? Look the first thing you're going to do when you're going to take over, when you take over any company, is you're going to go on a listening tour. Because you don't know what. You don't know. You don't know who's good. You don't know where the bodies are buried. You don't know where the real issues are. You.

Mark Shapiro 5:00  

Don't have a full grasp of strengths and weaknesses. You don't really understand fully the challenges. You understand it from the cheap seats. You understand it from the outside. You understand it from the gossip and the information that's being spread around social or by word of mouth. You need to get in there and get your hands dirty. And frankly, when I took over six flags, that's what it was all about. Six Flags was on the verge of bankruptcy. The question most investors asked me on day one is, when are you going to put it into a bankruptcy? For me, it was about, hey, listen, let's turn around the operation, right? Let's turn around the culture. Let's turn around the product. Let's bring this, this product back to moms who will be invest in six flags in the bigger than Disneyland, but closer to home mentality, we have work to do on the operation before we ever talk about getting rid of any legacy debt. Part of that, those lessons, and part of my learnings, were really getting around to as many of those parks, whether it was in Canada or Mexico or every one of the states, and meeting with the people, the GMs, the leadership teams, even the people on the front lines, security officers, ticket takers, those that were working the games, you know, where somebody pays $2 to throw the ball and try and knock over the bottles. Like to really understand the product and the issues and the challenges and the turnaround strategy to formulate that, you have to get your hands in, and you have to do a lot of listening. So listening tours first, and if I took over the bears or anything else, I would first get in there and listen to better understand the totality of what I was dealing with, before putting in a plan for the turnaround that makes so

David Novak 6:34  

much sense that you know you've learned all about leadership in this incredible career that you have have had, and in just the whole sports media entertainment world, you know, when did you get the idea mark, that this is what you wanted to do? David,

Mark Shapiro 6:49  

I was lucky. I was lucky. I went I grew up in Glenview, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, and our high school had its own TV production department, like good facilities, good equipment. And what they did was they programmed the local cable access channel. So back in the day when cable meant everything, every town, as you know, had a local cable access channel, and most of the time, they put information you needed to know up there, or emergency alerts, or a lot of times, just color bars, frankly, but my high school actually programmed the channel magazine shows football games. I mean, today, every high school airs their football games, basketball games, so many of them on their local cable access channel, or they stream it back in that day. No one did that. So my high school was way ahead of the time, and I took an intro to TV class my sophomore year, and I knew right then, the rest of my life, I wanted to be in sports broadcasting and journalism. That's

David Novak 7:46  

fantastic. And I gotta ask you about what I think I may be wrong on this, but I think your first big break it came from some unknown talent. I think his name was Bob Costas. Could you share that story?

Mark Shapiro 8:01  

Look, I went to school at the University of Iowa. It's a big school, Big 10 school, 30,000 kids, not too far from home, about four hours away from Chicago. And I went there for broadcast journalism. They were very good at it, big time sports programs, very good at it. And the number one Creative Writing school in the country. I mean, it is a writing University. That's what they're known for. And I knew when I once I got in there, I started taking classes and got into the program and the curriculum. You know what? David GPA is important, of course, right? Resume is more important, especially in this line of work. I needed experience. You

David Novak 8:37  

can't even get a job without experience, yet. You got to get a job. How the hell did you do that?

Mark Shapiro 8:42  

And how many guys, I mean, I was ahead of my fraternity. How many guys in that fraternity wanted to be involved in sports broadcasting or journalism, wanted to work for a team, wanted to work for ABC Sports, wanted to work for ESPN. Whatever it might be, the competition is significant. You can't even accurately describe it. Everybody wants in on that. So to stand out, it's experience and it's relationships. And I applied for an internship in New York City to be an intern for NBC Sports, and they were hiring three positions. It was my sophomore year in college, one full time job and two part time jobs. And I thought to myself, David, you know how, like, how many folks are going to apply for this? What's the chances that I'm going to get I know nobody. I have no in this is a time you didn't get paid for interns. You were lucky if you got credits. And it was in New York City. And I said to my stepmom, who is a flight attendant for American Can I use one of your free passes to fly to New York City because I knew if I could just get in there for an interview, David, I could close this thing. I had that confidence that I'm going to get this done, but I have to get in there. So I called NBC. I got connected to HR, and I asked them, told them, excuse me, that I was going to be in New York City for some other reason. But is there any chance I could come. See them. I mean, total lie. I wasn't going to be there. I was coming just for that. I suited up. I walked into 30 rock I got the interview. She then walked me around NBC Sports, and, you know, lo and behold, I got the job. And part of that internship was working on a lot of events that their number one talent hosted, which was Bob Costas.

David Novak 10:19  

Fantastic story. The good thing your mom was the flight attendant, right?

Mark Shapiro 10:23  

How about that? We have five kids in my family, okay? And a divorced childhood and a lot of payments to make. There was no like, yeah, we'll buy you a plane ticket. You wouldn't stand by David and you had to wear a suit to get on. But you know what I was willing to wear? I was willing to go buck naked to get that interview,

David Novak 10:39  

and then you get your foot in the door as a production assistant at ESPN. And you know, when you got that job, what was your mindset? I mean, what did you think you needed to do to really separate yourself? Because now you're in you want to get attention right?

Mark Shapiro 10:53  

Keep in mind for the rest of college, David, I worked for NBC on different events. So by the time I graduated, I had done Wimbledon, I had done the Olympics in Barcelona, I had done a whole bunch of NFL games, and worked across many different events at NBC Sports at and for those that are listening here, remember back in the day, NBC, ABC and CBS, that's where it was at. It wasn't even Fox yet, and so I had a lot of experience, and now I'm coming out of college, and I have an opportunity to go work for NBC full time in New York. But I didn't want to go to New York for whatever reason. I didn't want to be in New York City. I was a Chicago guy, even though there was no network in Chicago, and the producer that I work for. His name is David Michaels. He's actually the brother of Al Michaels. And David said, Hey, Mark, why don't you move out to LA. I'm based in LA. You can keep working all my events, freelance, incredible, great. I'll do that. And I went out there and I started doing that, and out of nowhere, I get a call from ESPN, and they said, you know, we're going to be launching a new network. It's called ESPN two. We've got your name from some folks. We hear you're a real comer, and we would like to talk to you about a position. Where's the base in? La, fantastic. I go to the meeting, and he promptly tells me, it's a step back from what I was doing. To your point, it's a production assistant. It's a six month gig, and you're gonna get paid $20,000 of course, you have to amortize that 10,000 for six months and no guarantee of a job after six months, but you get overtime, and I was making a lot more freelancing. Why would I? Why are we getting six months ago? We don't even know if ESPN two is going to work. It's only in 16 million homes at launch. It may not work. So we may not have a network that's all we can commit to. And I went back to my dad and said, This is crazy. They heard about me. I was so excited this big job. I go in there, it's a step back. It's no money, no guarantee. Like my dad said to me, terms of good advice, he said, How long do you think it'll take you to be a producer at NBC, Dad, there's no turnover. These are the best jobs in the business, 10 years. How long do you think it'll take you to be a producer at ESPN it's cable. It's new. Six years cable is the future. Take that job, and I did it, David. And by the way, they fired the producer of the show six months into the job, and made me the youngest producer ever at ESPN. And

David Novak 13:15  

speaking of being young, you end up becoming the general manager of ESPN Classic. And I believe you were 26 years old when that happened. How did you navigate working with people that had to be 20 years older than you, a lot older than you. That's for the kind of pressure you have when you're a young leader like that is intense when you have people who are older than you that you need to lead and manage. How did you work through that? David,

Mark Shapiro 13:41  

that's where you get your your best learning lessons when it comes to leadership. That was a miserable experience, to

David Novak 13:48  

be honest with you. I'm glad you're honest, because it is for everybody. I got

Mark Shapiro 13:51  

put into that job, and now everybody that entered, even the folks that interviewed me for that production assistant temporary job at ESPN, two, were now reporting to me, right? Ultimately, that's where it ended up. I was a classic, and then I ended up taking over all the programming, and then I was running ESPN, you know, at a ripe age of, I don't know, 30 years old. And again, everybody's pointing fingers, everybody's yapping you. All of a sudden, have all these enemies out of just petty jealousy, right? Or they're threatened, or they think the boss has made a bad decision, or they're betting the farm on me, and it's a mistake. What does this young punk know? And you just have to be you have to carry yourself with integrity. You have to be a good listener. You have to show people that you care, that you don't know everything. You have to build a great team around you. You have to make sure you're listening to the On Air talent, as well as the production folks about what they're dealing with on a day to day basis. What are the challenges in getting ESPN to full penetration at 90 100 million homes and becoming the profit generator that it ultimately became? It takes patience and it takes a lot of humility and. What I did for the first three months, I did nothing but interview people full suit one on ones and take notes before I ever could come out with my platform, my plan of attack, our collective strategy, our priorities as it relates to how to win.

David Novak 15:17  

As you mentioned, you became head of programming for ESPN, and you're in eyeball attention. You've got to build the ratings kind of business. You know, when you think about the intensity that you put into that as as as an objective, and you know, leaders themselves have to, have to draw attention to, to their their brands and their companies and to themselves. What advice would you would you give somebody on that front on on how to really build attention for your company?

Mark Shapiro 15:47  

Here's what everyone has to know. And anybody that's interviewing or any young person, there's always going to be somebody that's smarter. There's always going to be somebody that has a better mousetrap or better experience or better resume. But what you control is the way you carry yourself, your attitude, your energy, your honesty, your directness, your courage, your work ethic, your passion for what you do. No one can out passion you if you really believe in something, no one can outwork you if you're willing to put in the hours and make the sacrifices. So whether it was getting the high head job or the first production assistance job, the way I've always approached any job is you're not going to outwork me. It's not a badge of honor. But these jobs or succeeding take hard work. They take grind and you have to be willing to put that in, no questions asked, and today, especially in this world, all the choices, all the fragmentation, work from home, frankly, the entitlement, it's harder, I'm not going to say hard, but it's harder to find people coming out of college that understand they have to put it in like never before, especially with all The competitive balance and choices that are out there in order to stand out. And if you do that, you will find that people will appreciate that. They will respect you. They will get in line with you. They will work for you. They might even be inspired by you if you do it right. And when you have that, David, then there is no limit to what you can accomplish in terms of positioning or success or milestones.

Speaker 1 17:26  

Hi everyone. It's Kula from how leaders lead. And if you're seeing my face right now, it means you're watching this interview on YouTube. I want to say thanks. Thanks for watching it on YouTube. And if you love the show, subscribe to the channel so you never miss an episode. And if you like one of the episodes, let us know in the comments. You guys, these conversations are incredible, as you know, and if you love them, hit subscribe on our channel. Leave a comment. If you love one of the episodes, it'll help us in our mission to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. And you know, we truly believe that better workplaces, better communities and a better world starts with better leaders, and when you help this podcast grow, it helps us do more of that. So subscribe to the channel. Let us know if you love one of the shows, and thank you so much for listening. You're

David Novak 18:13  

such a creative guy, and you've created incredible content over the years, and you continue to do it. And one of the things that I learned that you created, I didn't know, I watched the show a lot on ESP it is, is Pardon, pardon the interruption, you know, and that was your brainchild, and that's been going on for 25 years, you know? What was the, what was the biggest challenge putting that show together? Was that just a no brainer?

Mark Shapiro 18:38  

No, not at all. Look, I was, I was producing a documentary series called sports century, which was ESPN, look back on the 100 years in sports, right in the year 2000 when everyone was doing the best, this the best, this the best, this the century. And they were doing sports, putting in context, putting in perspective the athletes, the stories, the social impact, you name it. And that project was wrapping up, and I was working out of my basement, and I was watching crossfire on CNN, remember that show? Yeah. And I thought to myself, we don't have enough debate at ESPN, now we have too much and I don't want to be blamed for all that, but we don't have enough debate. We don't have enough talk. What is sports? David, it's it's debate. It's argument. Why? Why the proliferation of sports radio all these decades? Because people can't get enough of talking about, how are the bears going to turn it around? How are they going to win? Who should they get rid of? Who should they sign? Is the head coach any good? Are they spending their money wisely? Do they care about the fans? On and on and on. People just they can't get enough of that. And I thought to myself, we're good at journalism. We're good at news and information. We're the place of record. We have the best live events Sports Center is appointment viewing. Back in a day when there used to be appointment viewing, what we don't have enough of is debate. And I we need a show like this. And so I I put an eclectic. Group of people together from across the company and outside the company, sports fans, but outside the company. And I put them in a room, and I said, here's the only two things I know we do a half hour show. Here are the two guys that are going to host it, Tony COVID, Heinz and will Michael Wilbon. Oh, you got them? No, I'm going to, I'm going to sell them on this, and the show is going to be called pardon the interruption. Of course, that's the worst name. That's a terrible name. We can't use any just, let's have that argument later. Now let's talk about the format, because any hit show David is predicated on format or talent. Either one can get you a hit show if you have both, well, then you get a 25 year winner like, pardon the interruption, and they went to bat on all this stuff, throwing stuff against the wall. What works all these different devices to spur conversation and debate. Tony and Mike had been arguing as reporters of The Washington Post in the newsroom for years, so it became natural for them to argue with each other. And we started doing rehearsals. We put it together, and it really stuck. And I'll tell you, David, when I pitched the show to ESPN, because remember, I wasn't running the place. When I pitched the show, they never even got back to me. You want to talk about a way as a leader to squash creativity, to actually destroy culture, is not respond when someone goes out of their way to create a new idea that they think would be great for the company to move it forward. Just, just say no. Say we don't want to do it. No is the second best answer, as opposed to not getting back to somebody at all. And it sat out there forever. And finally, I chased down an executive. You know, I turned this in six months ago. I've heard nothing about the show. Not one thing is it? Did you guys hate it? Oh yeah. Mark, yeah. I forgot all about well, it'll destroy SportsCenter. We can't do it. He said, Well, you're gonna put it on at 530 at six o'clock. Sport Why would anyone watch SportsCenter if they just heard all the issues and topics debated a half hour earlier? And I said, No, it's gonna rising. Tide lifts all boats. 530 will go up. SportsCenter at six o'clock will go up in ratings. The game will come on afterwards, all leading into the 11 o'clock Sports Center, which was our flagship show. It'll raise our whole night. And it was kind of like one of those pat on the head, you're young, you're eager, you don't know we're not doing it. And what happened was, David, I ultimately got the job to be the boss, and then I just did it.

David Novak 22:19  

That'll work every time that will work. One thing about you, Mark, you are not a wallflower, okay? You, I mean, you, you build conviction, you know. And so what's your what is your process that you use to to build conviction like that? Because, you know, that was a that's a great example of having conviction on an idea. You have to do your

Mark Shapiro 22:39  

homework. You have to be informed, right? You have to, you have to listen, but you also have to have instinct. And I think it's a combination. Barry Diller told me, long time ago that he used to make he's I sat on a Live Nation board with him for years, and he said, You know, I used to pick hit shows mark. I never used a focus group. It was right here. It was my instinct. There's a Flash Dance, that'll be a winning movie. You know, like this show will be a winning show. I just, I just was born with these natural gifts, and I go with instinct. And then I talked to Jeff Zucker when I was potentially going to go work at NBC News, and the Today Show was number one, and Jeff is the guy that responsible for that. I said, Jeff, how did you do this? And he said, I'll tell you what. I had a lot of ideas. I focus group tested them all. Hey, what if we do a studio with Windows on 30 rocks so you can see in people might line up. We might do some concerts out there. I tested that and we put it into play. So focus group instinct, and that's what I would tell you. When it comes to decision making, you need to do your homework. You need to be informed. You need to Canvas people you respect, you care about, you think, bring good perspective, right? Good opinion, informed opinion, and have their fingers on the pulse of culture, what's hot, what's not. And then you have to collect your data, and then you just have to go for it, and you are going to have a lot more failures and a lot more misses than any hits you're going to have across the board, whether it's a show or it's hiring people. David, you make mistakes all day in hiring people. You don't know what you don't know, but you can't look back, you can't regret. You have to move on. You have to stay confident, and you have to believe in yourself. Speaking of

David Novak 24:19  

failures, tell us a story about, you know, a a bet that you made, a huge bet, that if it did fail, maybe it didn't fail, but if it did fail, it would have hurt your reputation, or or, or you might even got fired. Did you ever you have a story like that? I

Mark Shapiro 24:36  

mean, countless. I can do an entire hour on just failures. And I'm not saying that with any false humility, like you don't work for as long as I've worked, and all the different trades and spaces I've worked, I fail every single day, constantly, new ideas, new approaches, new show, a deal I cut for some talent that we represented didn't get enough, didn't make the sell wasn't good enough, or the advertiser turned away from us. You have to get over those hurdles. But just in terms of stories, look two infamous ones for me. One was when I took over six flags, I learned quickly that when you go into the theme park, right, you can leave anytime you want and come back like that doesn't happen if you go into an arena state or a stadium for a game and you leave, they always remind you you can't come back in, right? But it's six flags. You can go in and out all day. So I said, Well, no wonder our food and beverage is so low. These people are leaving to go have lunch, because it's very regional, local, and then they're going to come back and not spend any money with us. And immediately all the executives mark, no offense. I know you're new to the boss, but if you do that, you don't, our attendance is going to get crushed. I said, What are you talking about? No, they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna stay. They're gonna buy hamburgers with us, and we're gonna raise the price of hamburgers because we're gonna get Johnny Rockets. And Johnny Rockets is a better brand, and all our per caps are gonna go up. Say no mark. These people go out to their cars, and they bring bag lunches, and then they eat, I said exactly across all 32 parks. No more in and out. David, our attendance plummeted, absolutely plummeted. All these people that bought Season Passes. This is what they do, $49 and I can go in whenever I want, come back in the day of and I can eat. It doesn't cost me anything. I just got a ticket for 50 bucks for the entire year. I don't even have to eat or drink there. And it plum, I'm telling you, plummeted 4000 like four it was, it was mad like a 20% drop. What a story. And quickly I went back free. Lunch is great. Come on back

David Novak 26:41  

home, baby. Get the brown bags. Now we can start to give away brown bags.

Mark Shapiro 26:47  

Let's say what else. And this is an infamous one from ESPN, but it's but it's also a big learning lesson. One of my top studio executives comes to me and says, Hey, Mark, I got an idea for our NFL morning show, right? It was lot of competition for the NFL. This is the morning show before the games on Sunday, and you're either watching ESPN or Fox and good ad rates, so you really want to drive those ratings. And he says, we're going to hire Rush Limbaugh. And I said, What does he know about sports? Said, Rush Limbaugh is a massive football fan. In fact, he's a massive fantasy football fan. Before Fantasy was a big deal. He actually knows his stuff. We brought him in for an interview. He's terrific, by the way. He's really good on air. You know that his radio shows that? I mean, he was Joe Rogan when there weren't a lot of Joe Rogan's out there. And I said, All right, well, I want to be clear. I don't need to meet him. I don't need to interview him. I trust you. He cannot bring any of his social views into the studio or on our air like I know he's very right. And I'm not saying that because I'm left or center or right. I'm just saying this is sports. We are doing football. If Rush Limbaugh is going to come talk informed football and open our show up to a broader audience, to fans that maybe don't watch ESPN, because, of course, he'll be talking about it every day on his radio show. Oh, on my ESPN football, we have a chance to reach more fans and bring in new audience. We'll do it, but I want to make it clear, out of bounds, any anything outside of sports. Oh, he understands. He understands we signed a big contract with him. First four or five weeks, our rating spiked 11% it was working. He was a megaphone on radio, and it parlayed into being a big winner for the show in the ratings. Now all of a sudden, which, by the way, my head of human resources black female warned me he couldn't help himself. They get into a discussion about Donovan McNabb, who's the black starting quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles, as you know. And I don't know the exact line, but it was like an Al campanis moment where he basically said, Well, you know, he doesn't have the faculties of a white court, something of that, that nature, which, I mean, just forget it. He stepped over line, he blew the drawers off, and I got destroyed. I mean, forget about somebody brought me the idea that's what happens when you're the boss. You get credit for things you don't deserve the credit for, and you get blamed for things that maybe aren't all your fault. It was my fault, though. I made the decision to green light it. He stepped over the line, by the way, I quickly fired him, but it didn't matter. I got destroyed. And it was one of those things. David, where like the Wonder Boy, the young kid, all the success this age running. ESPN, see, he's in over his skis.

David Novak 29:30  

Those are such, such great learnings. I love it. You know, when you grow so quickly, like you did, and you are that wonderkind, and it doesn't happen by accident. You got results quarter after quarter after quarter, and you still get results quarter after quarter. How do you drive as a leader, a results oriented culture pay

Mark Shapiro 29:51  

for performance. Let's start there. You have to have a culture. You have to have a team that understands expectations, very clear you. This is the year ahead of us. It's broken out into quarters. This is what we're trying to accomplish. This is what we mean our numbers to be. These are our targets. These are our stretch targets. These are our priorities. I've listened to you. These are the resources and tools I'm going to give you to reach those targets, to reach those goals, to reach those expectations. And I'm going to be unapologetic of it in terms of what we expect, as long as you know the expectations, and you know what you're signing up for, I'm holding you to it. If you don't deliver, and I know this sounds harsh, David, you won't be here. That's just what it is. I mean, it's an eat. What you kill world, right? I mean, it's, I don't need to tell you, you've run massive companies. Yum. Doesn't get bigger than that, people have to deliver now. They need to know the expectations. They need clear feedback. They need performance reviews. They need resources and tools, right? They need they need help getting there. Sometimes you have to lean in and be more granular. Other times you have to let them run but as long as everyone understands upfront what we're aiming for, what the measure and the metrics of success are, then it's full throttle to get there. And if you get there, everyone wins, pay for performance bonus, stock equity opportunity, whatever it might be, promotion, title, office, you name it, flexibility, but if you don't, there are repercussions, and you have to have the strength and conviction to live by that both ways, I don't have any problem delivering tough messages or bad messages or letting someone go or putting someone on performance review, that that's part of the job, that's that's not personal, it's business. At the same time, I'll be the first one to celebrate loudly when someone succeeds, when someone accomplishes the task at hand, we'll

David Novak 31:43  

be back with my conversation with Mark Shapiro in just a moment. If you want to learn from another leader who isn't afraid to set a clear vision, listen to my conversation with the chairman of Panera niran Chaudhary Nirn says that if you want to create a motivated and optimistic team, you've got to begin with the end vision in mind.

Speaker 2 32:02  

Begin with the end in mind. You know, think of life as a unfinished painting, and begin with the end in mind. Envision what you want that painting to look like, the colors in all the vivid details, the contours the paint brush, as vividly and as richly as you guys can imagine it, because the more you can begin with the end in mind and what you want your life to look like, the higher likelihood one has of making that happen.

David Novak 32:30  

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with niran, episode 30 here on how leaders lead. How do you think about recognition and doling out the credit you said something that I picked up, which is, say it loudly. What do you mean by that? And how do you do it?

Mark Shapiro 32:47  

I think some of it, David, has to do with achieving some level of success at a young age. I've always known that I just don't know enough. I know enough to know I don't know enough, and things are changing and evolving and maturing and falling in favor of out of favor so quickly. And we have to adapt to technology and changing trends and dynamics and cultures and audience. And you have to have that, that adaptability to move with the changing time. So it takes transparency. It takes communication. It takes being able to say you're wrong, it takes risks. Right? Calculated risks. I'm a big believer in calculated risk, not just some wide ranging, you know, crazy, let's be gunslingers. That's irresponsible. But knowing, if you don't know enough, you need great people around you, and I spend a lot of time recruiting great people, hiring great people, letting go of great people that maybe just didn't fit or it wasn't working, but constantly giving feedback. I don't wait till the end of year. So you know where you stand with me. You are getting regular feedback in real time, so nothing's a surprise. You're not leaving a room with me not knowing where you stand or how I felt about a certain decision that was at hand. And I think that decisiveness, that clarity, right, that conviction, is in many ways a relief to people, because even if it's tough to hear or take or the pressure is high, at least they understand where they're marching. They understand where we're trying to get to. And by the way, anyone can self select and opt out at any time. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is, if I'm hiring you, and I'd say, here's what is, here's what is, here's this, here's the expectations, here's the job, here's what we expect of you, here's here's how we're going to measure success. And then you come in and half ass it, or don't follow or the plan, or we don't talk. You're not keeping good communication, like no you knew what was expected of you, and if you didn't want to live up to it, that's okay. Opt out. But don't sit here and fake it right? Don't just roll with the punches. Don't just placate me. Just Just get out. But if you're in, we're in together, and in together means sometimes I'm listening and taking you. Your route, and sometimes or more of the time, since I'm the boss, you're taking my route. But when we walk out of a room, there is nobody that thinks they're on separate pages. And if I feel like someone thinks our team is splintered, we have problems.

David Novak 35:15  

Yeah, makes, makes a lot of sense. And you know, one of the things about you, Mark, as you've evolved, as the media world has evolved, and you're like the king of amplification. You bring so many different parts together to really blow out whatever you happen to be, be, be working on. Tell us about the power of your company, WME, and use Wimbledon as an example, because I think that's a great one. We

Mark Shapiro 35:41  

do a lot of business with Wimbledon. It's a, it's a, they're a long term, storied and valued institution, right? I mean, it's been around for decades and decades, and Mark McCormick signed Wimbledon at IMG, you know, decades ago to help market sponsorship and distribute their media rights around the world. And that relationship, which, by the way, was signed on a cocktail napkin back in the day and renewed many times on a cocktail napkin over the years, that has stayed a I mean, it's just a perennial and Tiffany product and partnership, and we've grown the partnership over the years, whether it be hospitality, whether it be helping them with their global partnerships, whether it be information with regard to ticketing and premium experiences with distributing Wimbledon, not just in the US, but in territories all over the world, tennis athletes, the players themselves that we represent at IMG, which is, of course, is you know, owned by what was endeavor, but now is a big part of WME sports broadcasters that call the call, the actual competition in different countries, in different languages. For a while, we did all their digital production like we have found ways where a partner came in through one door and we built trust and confidence and faith, and they measured us on results, and when we delivered on those results, they gave us more opportunities. And now it's turned into one of our biggest partnerships and one of our most treasured Are

David Novak 37:11  

you a vision guy, Mark and and if so, how do you think about the vision that you have for WME today?

Mark Shapiro 37:18  

WME going forward? You know, as you know, David, we've just taken it private. And WME is really going back to its roots, the WME group, as we call it, which is representation WME started back in 1900 I mean, it's been around quite a long time. And we represent talent, brands, IP, athletes, artists of all walks, kinds, shapes and sizes, diversity of programming, diversity of content and diversity of clients, is instrumental to our success. I mean, it's core to our success. That's where that business is going to go as a private company. Going forward, we made a lot of acquisitions. Ari Emmanuel and myself, Patrick white soul, obviously, was with at WME, with Ari in the early days when they just, just got launched buying endeavor, when William Morris and endeavor merged, and we made a lot of acquisitions, and we got into a lot of different businesses. And going private, we're selling some assets. We've sold some assets to TKO, our sports assets. And WME, going forward, will focus pure play on representation, and I'm excited about that. That's the roots. That's the roots of the company,

David Novak 38:25  

and that's your vision. And how important do you think it is for a leader to paint a vision? There's,

Mark Shapiro 38:29  

it's, it's synonymous with leadership. A leader that doesn't have vision isn't a leader.

David Novak 38:33  

Do you go into the corner office and come out of that office with it yourself? Or what do you have a process for it? Or do you know, how do you how do you do it? Because you are, you've always been a big thinker. You've always kind of seen the world where it's going look.

Mark Shapiro 38:47  

You have to have your own ideas, right? You have to have your own dreams. You have to imagine, and you have to give yourself time and space to imagine. If you're so in the grind daily, and you're so granular or you're micromanaging, God forbid, then there's no time to think about two years, three years, five years. So we have a process in place. We have a three year plan. We have a five year plan, and of course, we measure quarter to quarter, but we incentivize, we encourage, and we inspire our employees at all levels to constantly be thinking about new ideas, new solutions, new rows, new ways of doing things, and we listen and we follow up. So when somebody says and it's just a rule I have in my company, and I'm sure every every CEO or president has that rule, which is, I don't care who you are, what level you're at, anybody who wants a cup of coffee for 15 minutes, you get a cup of coffee. Just schedule my assistant. It may not get scheduled, David for a couple months. You're on the road and you're busy and all that, but there is nobody that there's not a follow up with. And in those 15 minutes, you get to know each other for a few minutes quickly, and then you just hear most people walk in the door with ideas. And those ideas I'll tell you, I'll give you a great one. I'm at ESPN and our. A researcher schedules a 15 minute coffee with me, and he is the head of research. His name is Howie Schwab, and he comes in, and he just starts rattling off all these stats. And we should be doing this, and we should be doing this, and we need to get a next gen stats. How? How prescient is that next gen stats? I mean, that's what all these games are about these days, and analytics, and nobody even knew what Analytics was, and he's going on and on and on. And I just realized, like, it just kind of hit me, this guy is, he's a genius, like, he like, he's a savant. He knows every stat I could possibly think of. And I just said, Howie. And if you've seen him, he's not his face is not the face for television. And God, rest his soul, because he passed away about a year I said, We should do a show with you what? That's not what I came to talk about. You're talking about how we can make our stats better and next gen. And it just dawned on me, like I've probably never met anybody that knows more about all these sports than you, we're going to launch a new show, and immediately, seriously, I'll be a part of it. No, you're gonna be in the show, people are gonna have to test their wits against you in this game show era. And we got people in the room, they started throwing ideas up. And next thing you know, we launched a show called stump the Schwab, hosted by the late great Stuart Scott, and it was on ESPN two, and it was weekly, and it really became a huge cult favorite. And how he became, like this recognizable star on the street, and he very idiosyncratic guy and an unusual personality, but an absolute genius when it came to sports statistics. And that happened like you didn't come to meet with me to pitch a show, but that's what came out of it. And by the way, a very profitable show.

David Novak 41:38  

Yeah, that's great. And you know, so you, in addition to running this private company, you're also leading TKO, which is a great public company, and you've got great brands. I mean, UFC, WWE, I mean, these fans are maniacal. How do you see leveraging that? I mean, you know, when you have something as a leader that is so real, and you see it every time you have an event, you know what goes on in a mind like yours. First of

Mark Shapiro 42:10  

all, how do we build for the future? Right when you're building, there's the business part where you're like, how do we better monetize the business so that we can grow the business, so that we can expand the business, so we can make the business or the content better for the viewers in the audience. And then there's also, how do we grow the brand, which sometimes has nothing to do with dollars, has to do with marketing or positioning or advertising, the way we speak about it, the quality of content that we bring to the overall content proposition. You're thinking critical, commercial. Critical commercial, brand business, brand business. And that's the way our people around here act. Vince McMahon started WWE years ago. So institutional knowledge, institutional expertise, institutional following, huge brand equity of legions of followers over the years, and brand names from Hulk Hogan to Andre the Giant that whether we were a fan of WWE or not, if you're a fan of culture, you knew who they were. UFC, 30 plus years ago, an idea. Dana White, pitching it, pitching it, everybody's saying it wouldn't catch on. Boxing is the only thing that matters. No one cares about. MMA, it's only an international sport. He gets an investor in the Fertitta brothers, and they put some money in, and then they lose all that money, and they start again. And all of a sudden, it catches in a big reality show, The Ultimate Fighter takes off on Spike network. And now all of a sudden, you know, it's one of the most premium properties on ESPN, and we got a lot of other competitors now chasing to get the UFC on that platform. I mean, you have to believe, you have to have conviction, you have to be able to stomach it and have the stamina to stay in it. But at the same time, David, and you know this better than anybody, given all the products you launched in your stores, you got to know when to pull out when something's not working, too right?

David Novak 43:55  

I know that for sure. You know the other thing that I love it. You think of yourself as being oppressed the flesh type of leader. You just talked some great ideas have come from making yourself open and being available. And I've seen you do town halls on video. I was able to take a look at what are your town hall videos. And you get up there and you beg everybody around the world to give you the toughest freaking question. Okay, you know what? Why do you do that? And then I got asked a two parter here. Okay, no

Mark Shapiro 44:27  

one's asking that, but I've never been asked that question. You just asked something. No one's asking you

David Novak 44:31  

beg. You beg for that question. Okay? Is it because you're so freaking tough that people are afraid to ask it? No, they ask them. Okay, because I'm going, you know, leaders can be intimidating. You're convicted. You got this, I gotta ask you. I mean, you know, is that something you have to overcome? Because I guarantee if I walked into office and I was beat with Mark Shapiro and I see your conviction and you're passionate or whatever, I think I'd pucker up a little bit, you know, not not me, but maybe somebody else. No,

Mark Shapiro 44:59  

that's fair, and that may. Be a weakness that I have. Frankly, I have to show off more gears more often, but at the end of the day, why ask for those tough questions? I'm human. I'm human, and I remember where I came from, right? And I think a lot has to do with my upbringing, taking us full circle to your full first question. I grew up in Chicago, hard working, divorced parents, Midwestern work ethic. I got my shot. I got shut down or denied and told no and ignored, and same time, got a lot of opportunity to prove myself. I, at the end of the day, nurtured some great relationships, and I had my own champions, my own rabbis, my own advocates, and that had a lot to do that and timing with moving up the ladder, it wasn't just, oh, these accomplishments. A lot comes into that picture, and I had the right teams in place to get me there and now. So when I go into these town halls, and I did this at ESPN, like, don't be shy. You just need that first question. Once somebody asked the first question, you're off to the races. But I want people to know, like, we have transparency. We are a company where we wear it on our sleeves, you know, where you stand. And there's nothing you're going to ask that we're gonna say, hey, ho Ken, how much does ESPN make? How profitable is it to the Walt Disney Company, Six Flags. How much longer can we stay afloat with the cash on hand and all that debt before we have to go into bankruptcy? You know, on and on and on. There's all kinds of challenges. Dick Clark suffering after a stroke, and he's the host of new year's rock and Eve. When I own Dick Clark productions and I ran that Mark, how long are we going to keep Dick Clark as the host on New Year's rock and Eve when you can barely understand what he's saying? These are the kinds of questions you be ready for it. And by the way, I'm I'm quick to also to say, if I don't know the answer, I'll tell you I don't know, and we'll figure it out, or we'll tell you that we don't know the answer. But I just think you really need that, that that openness, that transparency, that that relationship.

David Novak 46:53  

The other thing that you've talked about is you not only come up with ideas, and other people come up with ideas, and you always, I've heard you say this, then you get everybody in the room, you say, then you start banging them this way, that way, and coming up with this idea, that idea, whatever, that requires collaboration. And you know, we're in this virtual world today, Mark, I mean, I mean, and you're in this creative world where collaboration is so key. How do you bring those How do you bring it together in this post COVID world where everybody, or a lot of people, want to stay home instead of come to work. Luckily,

Mark Shapiro 47:26  

this isn't a town hall, because if my employees, 11,000 employees, heard you ask that, here he goes again. This softball for Shapiro, he's gonna, he's gonna knock us out. Now I am, and I'm not saying I'm right, okay, and God bless Jamie Dimon, who've been on your show, and he's a good friend, and he's been good to us as a company, and several the companies I'm at, but he, of course, was caught on tape, if you will, talking about just this, and I subscribe to the same philosophy. It's not because I'm like old school, and you gotta come in at nine to five, and here you go. It's an I'm a big just a big believer right or wrong, that there's a premium. There's no substitute for being in person. How many things collisions happen or happenstance, collaboration or hey, you out in the hallway? Hey, what's your name? Karen? Karen, come on in here. We want to get your opinion on boom, and it launches her career. You never know. And you need, you need varied opinions. You need diverse opinions. You need diverse backgrounds, ethnic ethnicities, right experiences for people to really weigh in. And when you are in the office and you're walking the halls and you're and you're in conference rooms and you're forced to be together, you're just more creative, you're more collaborative, you're raising the odds for success, because you're there when you're on the virtual I'm not saying you can be totally dialed in, and I do virtuals all the time, but I also know sometimes when I'm doing them, I'm doing an email too. I shouldn't be I'm answering a text, I'm zoning out. I'm not kind of dressed for success, right? It's just, it's a different environment, and it's okay if you want that. And some trades engineering, etc, etc, some of the folks who work in our it, they can do the job from home. They don't need as much collaboration. And some companies don't require the being in office. Our company needs it.

David Novak 49:18  

You have to have it. Depends on it. With creativity, you have to have that that and young

Mark Shapiro 49:23  

people. Can you imagine? Like, if I'm young, like, I want to get noticed, I want to get recognized, put me in. Coach, volunteer, raise my hand. Coach, what am I doing that over virtual such

David Novak 49:35  

a good point. You know, I have to tell you, Marcus. But so much fun catching up with you. And I want to have a little bit more with my lightning round of questions. So I know you're ready for everything the

Mark Shapiro 49:46  

lightning round. But okay, good at it. I want to be the three words to best describe you, passionate, energy, energetic, empathetic. If you could be one

David Novak 49:55  

person for a day besides yourself? Who would it be? Walt Disney. What's your biggest. Peeve.

Mark Shapiro 50:00  

Don't tell me what I want to hear. Don't bullshit me. Give it to me straight. Let's have an honest it goes both ways and feedback goes both ways. Let's have an open relationship in that sense.

David Novak 50:11  

Who would play you in a movie? Think Vitale. There you go. How long could you last in the octagon with John Jones?

Mark Shapiro 50:20  

I couldn't I pee. I pee in my pants before I got in the octagon, and they would disqualify me

David Novak 50:25  

if you were in the WWE, would you rather be a face or a heel? Oh, for sure, a heel. Which of your 16 Emmys Are you the most proud of? Not

Mark Shapiro 50:34  

even close. Fourth century, the century project I talked about because it didn't just win an Emmy it won where I always wanted to win, as a storyteller, a Peabody Award.

David Novak 50:42  

You have two tickets to any sporting event. Where are you going and who are you taking with you? I'm

Mark Shapiro 50:48  

probably going to Wimbledon. There's just nothing. It's so majestic. It's, it's just, it's a special place. And after my internship at NBC, it was the first event of my career that I worked. I mean, I was the guy that went and got McDonald's for everybody, but it doesn't matter. I was at Wimbledon, and I'm taking it will always and forever be my wife Kim, or any of my sons, Jack JT and Ryan.

David Novak 51:14  

What's, what's the one thing you do just for you mark,

Mark Shapiro 51:17  

that's where I fail. It's another that's a place I fail. Frankly, I don't you need you need more me time, but just some something for you. I don't do

David Novak 51:27  

enough of that. Besides your family. What's your most prized position? Friends?

Mark Shapiro 51:31  

Because David, we work this way. We work hard, but we do it. So hopefully the time you do break off when you're not working is spent with your community. If

David Novak 51:41  

I turned on the radio in your car, what would I hear you too? What's something about you? Few people would know that

Mark Shapiro 51:46  

I had a minor in Political Science, because a career in politics was my backup plan. What's

David Novak 51:53  

one of your daily rituals? Last question here on the lightning round, what's one of your daily rituals? Something that you'd never miss? My workouts, all right, well, you're in good shape, but that's great. That's you're ready to wrestle, you're ready to fight, you're ready to get on that ball. I hear that this

Mark Shapiro 52:07  

is it. The mental energy and clarity you get from just even walking on a treadmill is something that that I'm desperate for on a daily basis. All

David Novak 52:18  

right, just a few more questions. You and your wife, Kim, you have three boys. What? What's a leadership lesson you've picked up at work that you really try to live out at home. I'll

Mark Shapiro 52:27  

tell you what I'm instilling. You know, in my boys, my wife is, I mean, she's and she's a godsend. I mean, she's Southern Belle from Kentucky. She went to Alabama, just raised the right way, and she's all about values. She's all about integrity. She's all about manners and and I would just say, I want my boys to work hard. I want them to work hard. I want them to grind. I want them to dig in. I want them to put the time and effort in. I want them to show how much they care about what they do, the attention to detail and the way they treat others, extremely important, especially going back to that entitlement point where I've seen a lot of kids in college coming out, or even their friends that just have so much, and when you grow up, and I've been blessed, and your kids have a lot, it's that much harder to keep them grounded when they grow up with so much,

David Novak 53:13  

and when you think about just your ability, now that you've had so much experience made such An impact in the world that you're in and in the world, frankly, with just your creativity and your ideas, what do you put on yourself to really pay this forward to other people?

Mark Shapiro 53:31  

I think you put a lot a lot of weight, yet you carry a lot of weight with that, right? I mean, you can never forget where you came from, and you're, you're, you have to open opportunity for everyone around you in the same way, remembering the way someone did it for you. Like I said, yes, some of it was accomplish it. Some of it was timing. But I had some senior folks certainly at ESPN, who, if they didn't reach down and pull me up. This guy's gonna do this guy can do this for us. We should give this guy the opportunity. We should take a chance on this guy. It never would have happened. Like those champions. You live, you breathe, and you breathe those champions. And I take that very seriously. And every assistant that ever worked for me, in fact, we've got a big assistant reunion coming up. I'm talking, you know, assistant on your desk, and there's like 16 of them coming, coming, flying in from all different places, and we're just getting together, and we're gonna have dinner and we're gonna talk and we're gonna share experiences. I'm talking in the in the 30 years I've been working, they're all coming, and you know what I'm gonna do. I hope for, if nothing else, they walk away realizing how much I appreciate the impact and the contribution they made and had on on what my career trajectory, what my teams have been, what my companies have been, because it takes that to get there. That's It's the John F Kennedy story. True or not. I just I. Love that story, that he's going to the bathroom NASA or Cape Canaveral, wherever he's at and and, you know, the the bathroom attendant says him, how you doing? It says the Baptist attendant. The bathroom attendant says, I'm doing great. We're sending a man to the moon today, like he he's the custodian, and he feels a part of that team. I don't care if that's lore or fiction. I love that story. I know

David Novak 55:21  

that story too. You know. And what do you see as your unfinished business? I think

Mark Shapiro 55:25  

when it relates to unfinished business, it's not with work. I don't think that unfinished business is what I'm going to mean as a in the long game, as a father to my kids, as ultimately, I don't want to get too old too quick here, as a grandfather to my grandchildren as a brother to my to my sisters and my brother as a friend to all the friends I built over the course of my life, in career, in work, in play, in business, in school, the husband to my wife. We've been, you know, we're coming up on 30 years. I mean, wow, that means something. I got married at 26 years old, and I put a lot of stock in that, and I work hard, like I do on the job, to try to be a better person and not always bring home the work drama and controversy and pressures into the household. And I fail at that too, David, but it's a priority for me, and it's a goal of mine.

David Novak 56:16  

That's great. That's great. Last question here, Mark, you know what's one one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

Mark Shapiro 56:25  

I mean, it's not like one piece. I mean, there's just too much around that for me. But I'll tell you, you're never going to be a great leader if you don't get in there and do the work yourself, right? If you don't set the example, I don't care what level you're at, I can get a cup of coffee from my assistant, the same way she can grab one for me, it's team, and you have to really have that in your veins. And the only way to get that in your veins is to dig in and get that experience all kinds of different experiences, and really plug in. And what you take away from those experiences at every level will shape the worker you are the person you are, the manager of people. You are, the teammate you are, and ultimately the leader you want to become. Well, Mark,

David Novak 57:08  

I want to thank you so much for taking time for this interview, and I want to thank you for the example that you set, the example you set for setting an example, and the example you set for just the creativity and passion and just the belief in conviction in ideas, so many people go to work every day and they don't have that belief in power and creativity and what people can do together. And you inspired me today with your comments. So thank you very much. Well,

Mark Shapiro 57:43  

thank you, and I love what you said, what they can do together. I mean, seriously, that there's no the old cliche, there's no I in team. And I want to thank you, because the second I found out you were doing this podcast about leadership, like, like, Sign me up. You can't do enough of that, and you have a great style about you, an interview style about you, to get stories and anecdotes and really keep it raw and gritty and down to earth. And it allows somebody to feel comfortable to share their story. And I appreciate you for that. Thank

David Novak 58:14  

you, buddy. Appreciate it.

David Novak 58:21  

It's safe to say the world of sports and entertainment wouldn't be the same without Mark's leadership. Here's the guy who does more than just set a bold vision. He makes sure everyone knows exactly what success looks like, what their role is in achieving it, and what's at stake if they don't deliver that level of clarity is key. If you want a results driven culture with vague expectations, you're going to lose accountability. People start guessing, and results suffer. But when your team knows exactly what's expected and they're getting lots of real time feedback along the way, you can create some serious momentum. So here's something to try this week. Choose one key initiative and ask yourself, have I made the expectations that I'm asking my people crystal clear? Does every person involved know what success looks like and how will be measured? Remember, when everyone is clear on the goal, hitting it becomes a heck of a lot easier. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders set clear expectations coming up next on how leaders lead is Frank Edwards, the CEO of aqueduct capital, my whole world, I feel like, is built on relationships, and I think your your reputation is the most important thing you have in the world. Let's protect that every single day, so be sure to Subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts that you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the. World, I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business, so that you will become the best leader you can be. You.