Bob Jordan 0:00 

If you focus on the negativity, you're never going to get out of it. That's exactly what folks want you to do. And you've got to be realistic in the data and the feedback and then move forward and just not give too much air to the negativity.

David Novak 0:21 

In hard times, some leaders gloss over the problems, others get overwhelmed by them, but great leaders find a better way, and this episode shows you exactly how to do it. Welcome to how leaders lead. I'm David Novak, and every week I have conversations with the very best leaders in the world to help you become the best leader that you can be. Now my guest today is Bob Jordan, the CEO of Southwest Airlines. Now, Southwest is a beloved brand, but it's no secret they've faced some real turbulence lately. They've dealt with operational issues. They've made big changes, like assigned seats and baggage fees and and even the company's first ever layoffs. That's a lot for any leader to handle. But Bob's not just any leader. He's navigating all of it with a rare mix of realism and optimism. He stays clear eyed and honest about what's happening while also staying hopeful and excited about what's next. You'll hear how he walks that line, all the while keeping people at the center of it all. It's the blueprint you need to lead through whatever ups and downs you're facing. So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours. Bob Jordan,

you know, my daughter, Ashley, worked at Southwest Airlines just after she graduated from Vanderbilt, and one of the things she loved, and one of the things I've loved learning about, is the Southwest culture, and I know that recognition is a key part of your culture. What's the most fun you've ever had? Bob recognizing someone at Southwest

Bob Jordan 2:00 

you know, hey, the culture is unique and it's awesome. I we Herman Collin always said, I refuse to define the culture, but I always say, basically, we hire people that are low ego, they're humble, and they just love to serve other people. But, yeah, we love to have fun. I think the My Favorite period is Halloween, because you get to you, you get to be out of character. I've played everything from Ginger Gilligan's Island to part of the group ABBA last year, and you never know what's going to happen. I did discover, though, that most of our new employees under 30, didn't really understand what Abba was. So I had to explain myself to everybody all day, but the minute they heard dancing queen, they knew,

David Novak 2:42 

there you go. I love it, you know. You know, one of my favorite business books that I had all of our Yum brands leaders read was this book called nuts with the subtitle, Southwest Airlines, crazy recipe for business and personal success. How would you describe that recipe in your own words. Bob,

Bob Jordan 3:02 

you know, I think it's, it's basic, it's, don't take yourself too seriously. Take the business seriously. I mean, the airline industry is tough. I've been here 37 years, and I'm not sure there's, there's a tougher business on the planet, and you need to be serious about what you're doing every single day. But you don't have to take yourself too seriously. I mean, you could, you can, you can work in a tough business, and you can still have an awful lot of fun. And I think we prove that every single day here at Southwest Airlines,

David Novak 3:29 

you know, Herb Keller is the iconic founder of Southwest Airlines. And what's one of your experiences with him that taught you the most about leadership?

Bob Jordan 3:39 

You know, Herb. I think what was he was, he was the epitome of that, you know, he could be super serious about a topic, and no one was tougher than herb. But at the same time, he loved to have a lot of fun. He had a great big laugh, you know, little, maybe a little notorious for smoking and drinking at work, maybe on the job every once in a while, but I had a chance to watch him do really hard things, like, you know, take on freeing love field here, change federal legislation in order to change the way we can operate at Love Field, but never take himself too seriously.

David Novak 4:13 

Yeah, you know, love fields, obviously, the airport there in Dallas. And, you know, I remember he actually, I challenged somebody to arm wrestle, to solve a lawsuit.

Bob Jordan 4:24 

He did, the poor guy that he was wrestling. So, you know, Herb challenged him to the to the, I think it was the ownership of the term the company Club, which was the name of our frequent flyer program at the time. And so the guy thought he was flying in to, you know, to negotiate with Herb. Next thing you know, Herb's got him down at the Sportatorium, at a wrestling facility here in Dallas. They bus in 5000 Southwest Airlines employees. You've got CNN, you got cameras all the way from Japan to film this. And I thought the poor guy was going to pass out before he ever he. Before he ever got to the wrestling match, but it was an awful lot of fun. I think my favorite herb story. Herb loved to write people back. So somebody, as a joke, wrote in to him, and they wrote him a letter and said, Hey, Herb, I was in one of your bathrooms on your aircraft, and I noticed that the toilet paper was installed upside down. It was coming under the roll instead of over the roll. He thought he was really funny, so herb wrote the passenger back, and he said, Hey, I understand your question, but what are you doing upside down in my bathroom? So, you know, the guy was, I think the smartest guy I've ever known, but could have an awful lot of fun. And I, you know, again, don't take yourself too seriously. Take the competition seriously, but don't take yourself too seriously. Yeah, I

David Novak 5:45 

love it, you know, and I can't wait Bob to hear about how you're leading at Southwest, but first, I want to take you back a little bit. What's the story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you are today?

Bob Jordan 5:56 

I watched my dad as an example, go back to college when I was a kid, and he wanted a better education. He wanted a better life, a better job, you know, for his family, we had a pretty, you know, pretty tough growing up early. And so I actually went to my father's grad college graduation when I was 10. I watched him put himself through college, get an education, and then get a job and build a career. And it just inspired me to see what he did later in life.

David Novak 6:24 

That's a great story. Do you remember Bob? Do you remember your first job when you were growing up and what it taught

Bob Jordan 6:30 

you? I had a lot I think I've worked since I was eight. My first job was throwing newspapers, which nobody does anymore, I guess. But my first real sort of scheduled job was I worked at a truck stop, and I was pumping gas and, you know, putting putting oil in diesel trucks and everything, because a friend of ours owned this truck stop and was nice enough to give me a job. Didn't really know what I was doing. I do remember that I made $2.10 an hour, though, big money back then. Hey, it was big money, especially when you're a kid in high school.

David Novak 7:04 

You know you've been at Southwest since 1988 I believe, and you've had 15 different positions in the company. What advice would you give to others about how to differentiate themselves as you're coming up in your career?

Bob Jordan 7:19 

Well, first, yeah, I just been blessed to be at Southwest Airlines. You know, Southwest didn't, and the leaders that I've had didn't look at me and say, Hey, you're, you're, you're just a technology guy, because that's my background. I only stayed in technology about a year and a half, by the way, because I just wasn't very good at it. You know, I had folks that were willing to take a chance and and move me around to different positions. But the advice I always have for folks are, don't overthink your career, because you talk to kids coming out of college a lot of times and they say, I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. And they've got their career totally planned, and they're 22 years old, and I tell them, Well, look, that's good, but nothing in my career went the way that I had planned it. And if you if you trust the leader that you're working for, or you trust your mentor, and they say, Hey, go do this, or go do that, trust them and go do it, and don't worry so much about the next job. And former CEO that I worked for for a long time, Gary Kelly, always said, you know, you were just easy. So what does that mean? He goes, Well, I would ask you to do something, and you would just say, Okay. I said, Well, number one, I trust you. If you ask me to do something, I'm going to do it. But number two, you're my boss. I really didn't think I had a choice.

David Novak 8:34 

Well, it definitely paid off for you. And you know, you say that you weren't that great at technology, but you did lead the development of southwest.com into one of the most successful e commerce platform platforms in the airline industry, when you were launching such a huge project like that. What was your process to set it up for success from the start?

Bob Jordan 8:55 

Well, first you have to understand why. What is it we're building? You have to have to have good requirements, which means that, as a technologist, you have to be in touch with the business, in touch with your customers, but you have but above all, you have to have great leaders on the team, because as the you know, as the overall leader that myself, I can't really do anything other than ensure that we've got good people. We're properly staffed and properly funded. So have have a good understanding of what the requirements are, what you're trying to do, have great leadership, and then basically turn that team loose and let them perform.

David Novak 9:27 

Did you have check in points? Or how did you manage the progress of the team?

Bob Jordan 9:32 

Oh, yeah, we had constant check in points. I'm known as somebody good or bad that is a hound for data and a hound for detail. I love detail. I probably, you know, bug people to death sometimes, but no, we check in every single week on those things. We still do that. We have a process here, a day on Tuesday that we call governance Tuesday, you know, kind of a, kind of a lofty term, but basically it just means that's the day. That we roll through project status. We roll through an understanding of how the company's performing. We understand how our budgets are doing those kinds of things. But it's a day to stay close on projects, a day to stay close on the business.

David Novak 10:12 

You were also instrumental in shaping the Rapid Rewards program that you have into well known loyalty program, and in the industry has done very well, in your view. What what truly drives blasting brand loyalty with your customers?

Bob Jordan 10:27 

Well, we know that, you know, anybody can offer you travel, anybody can offer you air travel. And we know that, you know you've got to have the right flight at the right time out of the right airport, you know, preferably a nonstop. That's kind of the table stakes for a customer. But the huge differentiator that I hear all the time when somebody writes me is, Hey, your people are just better. Somebody went out of their way to take care of me. They, you know, or a reservations agent, I was on the phone talking to somebody, and I needed a flight because I had a I had a sick relative, I needed to get to another city to visit them. And I've heard stories like this. Next thing you know that that reservations agent is meeting them in that city and driving them to the hospital. They are they're sending them a care package and just going above and beyond to take care of a customer, sometimes a person they've never even met before. So it's that. It's that incredible hospitality, that incredible, as Colleen Barrett always called it golden rule, service that sets us apart, and that is what cannot be duplicated. Our people are the absolute best. What

David Novak 11:36 

do you do to really promote women and help them grow inside of Southwest Airlines. Or is that a priority? It

Bob Jordan 11:42 

is absolutely a priority. But I think priority one is developing leaders, period, and ensuring that we have the right people in the right place, and ensuring that we have a pipeline of future leaders. You know, when I went into this job as CEO, the biggest piece of advice that I got was figure out what only you can do and focus on those things. And one of those things is ensuring that we have a pipeline of leaders for the future, for five years from now, for 10 years from now. You know, at the end of the day, what people need is, is they need to be seen as a leader, as somebody of potential. And number two, they need opportunity to show that. So putting people in that's what happened to me. I was I was I was put into a place where I could work on projects like you described, because somebody thought I could do it. But at the same time, I got all kinds of terrific experience when we did when we decided my favorite story on that, when we decided to buy, we were going to look at buying and acquiring AirTran airways, our CEO, Gary Kelly, called me in and he said, Hey, we're, you know, we had been looking at that. And he said, Hey, I want, I want you to go do that. I said, Well, Gary Wait, what do you mean? Go do that. He goes, Well, go buy AirTran and get the deal done. I said, Well, I don't know anything about M and A and buying an airline, he goes, I know, I know you don't, but you'll fit. You'll, you'll, you'll put the team together, and you'll figure it out that level of being given an unbelievable opportunity is what you need to do for people. Because a lot of people, they have all the experience, they have all the capabilities. What they don't get is the opportunity to do it and to be seen.

David Novak 13:19 

Well, speaking of opportunity, when did you, when did the opportunity present itself for you to become the CEO of Southwest Airlines?

Bob Jordan 13:26 

Well, you know, you know, that's a board question, right? The board is charged with hiring and firing the CEO, and so the board is constantly thinking, a good board is constantly thinking about succession planning. But I'll admit I never aspired to be in this job. You know, it's turned out to be the best job I've ever had. Never really aspired to have any particular job. I've just aspired to do fun things and do things that I had not done before. And I will admit when, you know, when we went through interviews and when the when the board offered me, told me they wanted me to take this job, I will admit that I was stunned, because you just never feel like you're adequate to do something like this. And it was something, again, that I never really aspired to. But at the end of the day for me, it came down to I love our people. I love this company, and I love the people of Southwest Airlines. And when you love something like that, whether you feel like you can do it or not, there's a sense of duty to try. And again, it's turned out to be, it's a hard job, but it's turned out to be the best job I've ever had.

David Novak 14:38 

That's great. And you took over CEO, I think Bob in 2022 and what advice could you give others on on the best way to step into a new leadership position? And you've done that throughout the organization, in many different roles, and CEO is the last one. But if you're going to take move into a new role, what advice you give

Bob Jordan 14:57 

somebody Well, you know you're now. Ever you know. No matter what you think, you're never ready. You know you and so what I've kind of handled any new job the same way, which is number one, focus on the things that I don't know. So I spent, I had the blessing of having six months between the announcement and the actual change, and I spent most of that six months out in the field, in the operation, because the experience I had at Southwest, those 15 jobs never included the operation. So I think I made 28 station visits that first year, being out in the field, loading aircraft, talking to people, and just having a blast and learning, and then get to know your team, develop your team, really get to know the company, but there's a temptation. Sometimes people feel this temptation to jump in and have an impact from day one, and I would just caution avoid that. Step one is learn, understand the job, understand what you need to be thinking about. Don't make mistakes, because a lot of times when you jump in and try to make an impact, you can make a mistake. So I spent most of my time that first six months or so just

Koula Callahan 16:07 

learning, Hey everyone, it's Kula from how leaders lead. And if you've watched our podcast for any number of episodes, you probably know that a common theme from all of the great leaders we interview is that they are active learners. They have this commitment to continuing to learn and grow so that they don't stay stagnant, and so that they continue to see success in their leadership and in their life. This theme of active learning is so important, and it's what David's latest book, how leaders learn is all about. It's all about helping you develop that skill of active learning so that you too can continue to see success in your leadership and in your life. The book is really entertaining. It pulls stories from some of our greatest podcast guests and pairs those stories with insights that you can incorporate into your leadership and into your life right away. Grab how leaders learn on Amazon or wherever books are sold, and I think you're really going to love it. You feel David's personality through the pages and through his storytelling, and it's a really powerful way to level up your leadership.

David Novak 17:07 

I had a couple of activist investors when I was at yum brands who wanted us to spin off our China business into a public, separate public company. And fortunately, we were already in the process of doing it. And I believe you've had a activist investor. I think Elliot was the name of the investor. What did they ask you to do, and how are you leading through that process?

Bob Jordan 17:30 

The activist investor has been an interesting journey. So yeah, they they entered our stock, and then we became aware summer of last year that through a pretty aggressive campaign. So there was a Wall Street Journal article on a Sunday night. The activist put up a website on Monday morning and actually called for me to step down, called for our chair to step down, called for wholesale change in the board. So I remember we had a call that first night. They called and said, Here's what you're going to see. Going to see in the morning. You see the website, and it's not personal, but we're going to call for you to leave. But it does feel, it does feel a little personal, but,

David Novak 18:12 

but how do you deal with that? Just to begin, well, I think that's a pretty tough thing, you know, I

Bob Jordan 18:16 

think, I think I've got kind of a weird personality, which is, you know, I have, I have a long perspective. I have a lot of faith, so it's easy for me to separate sort of what's going on right now with with the true long term impact. I love Southwest Airlines, but you know what, no matter what happens, I'm okay. My family's okay as an example, but you, you do the work, and so you get shareholder feedback, you understand what the objectives of the activists are. And ultimately, we gotta, we gotta work out with Elliot. And I would tell you today that they are, you know, they know their stuff. They admit that they don't know airlines, but they understand business. They understand capital markets as an example and as an investor. They've certainly been been helpful, and we did to go through a number of difficult changes. So our our board did go through a lot of change. Elliot brought five member five new board members to our board. Our chair stepped down, and so it's been significant change. It's not all bad. The company is moving with a pace that I've never seen before. And so I do think it is been a difficult period, but it's certainly been a helpful period, and today, that's the reason, one of the reasons that I think you see us moving so quickly, we already had a great plan, well ahead of any activists, the move to assigned seating, the move to extra leg room. These moves are going to really drive benefits for our customers and performance in the business. But it's been an interesting process, that's for sure.

David Novak 19:57 

Yeah, well, you didn't start out on too good to know when there's. Saying, hey, he would like you to step down, but you're still there, and you've announced a transformational plan, which you're calling southwest. Even better, what's the biggest leadership challenge you have as you think about executing it? Well?

Bob Jordan 20:15 

First, I'm really proud. I mean, it's a great company that we the fundamentals of this company are fantastic, great network, great people, the best hospitality, terrific balance sheet, all the things that you want as a company as certainly as an airline, but we you've got to be led by your customers. You've got to go where your customers are pointing and they customers want assigned seating, and they want extra legroom. They want bar product choice. They want premium choices. So I am a huge believer in our plan, and the plan is being executed, and our leadership team and our people are excited about they're excited about where it's going to take us. When it comes down to it, though, you've got to execute, you've got to do the things that you say you're going to do. You've got to do them in the timeframe that you have promised, and you've got to deliver the results. Probably the biggest issue always is focus. You can't do 500 things at once. You can, you know, you could do a limited number. And at a time like this, where there's so much going on, you've got to ensure that the leadership team stays focused on the most important things at hand, and that is my job, to ensure that we stay focused.

David Novak 21:19 

And I'm sure staying focused means being focused on the customer. So what kind of rhythms do you have in place to make sure you, you know, personally, hear the voice of the customer firsthand?

Bob Jordan 21:30 

Well, all kinds of things we have, you know, there, we collect data on basically every single flight, so a customer scoring of little level of satisfaction. We do that at every segment of the flight. We look at your satisfaction when you're booking, when you arrive at the airport, when you move through TSA, when you're in the gate area, when you're on the aircraft, when you pick your bag up. So we have a huge amount of data. We do customer focus groups that I participate in, off and on, to hear directly from a small group about what's going on. So literally, directly from a set of customers sitting in a room. It's easy, if you don't watch it, it's easy to sit, you know, here in Dallas, around a table in a conference room and decide what's what the customer wants, and then realize that the customer never really had a seat at that table. So you got to constantly be ensure that you're hearing the customer, not just hearing what you think the customer is telling you. Do

David Novak 22:27 

you have a story, Bob about the best feedback you ever got from a customer that led to a breakthrough idea?

Bob Jordan 22:32 

Well, you know, I think you know, if you if you look at the work that we announced last fall, you go back to the assigned seeing an extra leg room. You know that feedback was coming through loud and clear. I talked to I was on a flight, open seating. And when I'm on a flight, I love to work with our folks. I like to work with our flight attendants. Go up and down the aisle serving snacks, and you get a chance to talk to everybody on the aircraft, and there was lighting her kids, and two of the kids were here, and one was over there. And I said, you know, hey, here, you know, here are your crackers. Kids. Want anything else? How you doing today? And she said, Well, I'm not really very happy, so what? What do you mean? She goes, Well, you know, we were, you know, this stupid open seating, you know, I wasn't able to sit with my kids. They're here. We're split. I've got one over there that's crying, and basically she gave me her personal story about she was going to change airlines if we couldn't find a way to solve her problems, because she didn't like not being able to be guaranteed that the kids and her seats and her husband's seats were together when they traveled. So you know, again, I love to serve when I'm on when I'm on an aircraft, it's fun to talk to everybody, but I will tell you, you get instantaneous feedback in the moment, good and bad. Yeah,

David Novak 23:51 

speaking of instantaneous feedback, I one thing I know is that Southwest has always touted bags fly free. What made you take that away? And what have you learned from that experience?

Bob Jordan 24:02 

Well, we've announced all kinds of changes and so and we by far, still have the best offering of policies, the most flexible policies in the industry. But you also have to look at what your customers want to buy, and it's very clear that our customers want what we call a basic or Basic Economy, kind of very no frills product that you see others selling, and we can't compete with today very easily because we don't offer that. Our base fare kind of comes with everything. So you've got to make the right level of profits. I mean, we're a for profit business, and if we don't, we aren't profitable to the right level. We can't offer low fares. And at the same time, you've got to meet your your your customers where they are. So we know there's a desire for that. What we've done is ensure that our most loyal customers this is a good change for them as well. If you've got the Southwest credit card in your wallet, you're going to have free check bags if you if you're a tier what? With Southwest Airlines, you're going to have free check bags, so all you got to do is engage with us and and that policy does not apply. But no, we've certainly got a lot of customer feedback that we're taking into account.

David Novak 25:11 

You know, you know, I saw a video of of you in November assuring that bags fly free wasn't going away.

Bob Jordan 25:18 

There's been a lot of discussion of bags fly free, and Southwest Airlines, bags that one bags fly free, are not going away. Come on. Thank you.

David Novak 25:29 

And you know, we all say things as leaders, where we go public and we make statements, and then, you know, you reverse that public position to a certain extent, although you just mentioned that if you, if you deal with Southwest Airlines, you can basically get back bags fly free. But, you know, social media everybody, they'll come at you that way. What have you learned about going public on something and then having to go back? Because, you know, as leaders, a lot of times you have to change your mind

Bob Jordan 25:55 

well. And some of that came from we went into the, what we call the meta search engine. So we went into Google Flights, and we went into online travel platforms like Expedia, and what became very clear was that we weren't getting share while people love bags fly free. We weren't getting share shift for that. So people love the bags fly free. What it wasn't bringing us a ton of extra business, so to speak, because we had to match up on on price, but, but to your question, I think at the end of the day, you've got to be willing. You can't have ego about these things. You've got to be willing to change your mind. You've got to be willing to tell the truth and rather than hide it in all these sort of obtuse reasons to say. But we were wrong, but we changed our minds. You know, we had, we had some operational difficulties at the end of 2022 they were tough on our customers, and tough over the Christmas holidays. And I chose, in terms of how we're going to communicate, what we're going to say basically, basically, rather than get all wound up in all the reasons to come out and say, Hey, we screwed up. We messed up, and we messed up. A lot of our customers travel, and it's no fault. And if you're going to blame somebody be mad at Bob Jordan, but we're going to do right by our customers and take care of them, and then we're going to go to work in technology and processes and fix those so this never, ever happens to again. You look today, we're the number one operator, best on time performance, lowest canceled flights, but the best operation in the business. But you've got to be willing to say we made a mistake and we've changed our minds, and this is what we're going to do, because people see it anyway, so you might as well be truthful. I had a good friend one time here at Southwest who said, who, who said, you know, when in doubt, tell the truth, because the one thing is not going to get you in

David Novak 27:55 

trouble, no doubt about that, you know. And you've had a lot of tough decisions to make, and you know, it's a tough time right now period to do business. And you're an extremely competitive industry, and you know, one of the things I had to do when I was CEO of young brands, we restructured, you know, three or four times, and cut costs. And you've really never had to do that at Southwest Airlines. And I think in February, you announced a pretty significant layoff of close to, you know, 1700 or so employees, you know, it was the first, you know, time you've ever had to do that in the airline's history. How did that situation just challenge your leadership?

Bob Jordan 28:31 

Well, the we announced the big cost cutting program generally, and I'm very proud as a low cost airline. I'm very proud that we were we, since we announced that in the fall, we've been able to actually double it. So our cost target takeout is now a billion dollars, not 500 million, but a piece of that was a layoff that we, yeah, we executed in in February, and it was targeted at overhead. So think of that as you know kind of folks in the headquarters and leaders, but it was targeted, as much as making us a more agile company, faster decision making as it was simply financial. So we eliminated functions that we decided we just don't need those any longer two different departments doing the same thing, put them together layers of leadership that we just didn't need because that those layers add more and more decision making, and more and more meetings and more and more process. I had no doubt that it was needed to make us a better company. But you struggle with certainly the people aspect. These aren't 1700 positions. These are people, and they're people that you know, and they're people's livelihoods, but the long term good of the company and the other 72,000 you know, trumped that difficulty. But what it did do is just say that this is no one's decision but mine. I don't want anyone else attached to why we decided to do that, but this but me and. And if folks are upset, be mad at Bob, because Bob made the decision. And we'll do this. We'll do it the Southwest Way. We will take care of people. And this will be, this will be a tough period, and then we're going to be optimistic, and we're going to move on and hit our plan. But I think the main thing is you've got to be truthful about the reasons you got to take care of people, and then you got to be accountable. There's no one that can be accountable for something like a job layoff other than the CEO. Yeah, you're

David Novak 30:32 

right about that, and I know firsthand that as a CEO, you know, you take a lot, a lot of heat when you have to make those tough decisions and but that's what you get paid to do. I mean, that's your job. That's your accountability. It, but it's stressful. You know? What have you found is the best way to manage your own personal stress with leading a team and a company like Southwest Airlines through such a through challenging times and challenging decisions?

Bob Jordan 30:59 

You know, I'm probably an oddball in this, because I am not ever been a stress person the way, the way, what I do in tough, in tough situations, is go to work. My outlet is go do the work. And so I, you know, I'll have folks say, Man, I can't believe what's going on. Yeah, you know, are you sleeping okay? Like, you know, I'm sleeping fine, and don't take that as these things aren't serious. These things are incredibly difficult. It was we processed the layoff I had a lot of times where I was sitting in my office crying, to be honest, crying about the decision, not and not not crying as in making that decision, but just the difficulty it was going to be for our people. And I love our people, but I have, again, I have a lot of faith. I have a lot of belief in faith, and I rely on that. I rely on my family. And you make those tough decisions, you do the work, and you move on, and you move on to the next thing. I do have some outlets. I like to work out I've gotten the last three or four years into climbing, indoor climbing, and that kind of thing. So I do physical things that are outlets. But again, for the most part, I think it's just the fact that I've got a I've got a strong faith that maybe overcomes some of that stress,

David Novak 32:20 

that's great, and partnerships are also key to your business, and Boeing is one of your critical partners, and the strike that they had meant you only received 25% of the airplanes that you basically anticipated last year. When you're not in control and you've got a major partner like that, and your success depends on on their performance. To a certain extent. How do you lead through that when they let you down?

Bob Jordan 32:47 

Well as you, I think as you, as you get older, and you, especially in a tough business, you realize there are not many things you are actually in control of. You know, having gone through the max grounding, having gone through COVID, having gone through these issues that you described, you realize that you've got to be you've got to be clear headed about what you're facing, and you've got to make decisions based on real data, because if you plan improperly and are too optimistic as an example, you'll have to make tough decisions later, like chopping the schedule as an example. So we were very straightforward with Boeing about our expectations, and at the same time, we were straightforward with ourselves about what we needed to do. And we reduced the schedule. We changed our plans, because at the end of the day, if you don't this is going to roll downhill and impact the customer. They're going to see last minute cancelations. They're going to see they're going to see stations that are not staffed properly, those kinds of things. So I think you simultaneously work the problem, work with Boeing here in this example, and then at the same time adapt yourself so that you can minimize the issues, particularly on your people and on your customers. But you've got to be clear headed about the impacts. It's easy to say, well, but you know, things go well, then we'll do this. We'll do that. You can't plan that way, because if they don't, the problem is even

David Novak 34:15 

larger. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bob Jordan in just a moment. You can hear what an impact Bob's steady leadership is having at Southwest right now. But that kind of inner strength doesn't just happen if you want to lead well, especially in tough times, take the advice of Scopely CEO Walter driver and make sure you manage your inner world. Building

Walter Driver 34:39 

a company is really it's stressful, it's challenging. It can produce a lot of anxiety and uncertainty. What the organization needs, if you're trying to create something that didn't exist before, is emotional consistency. You know, that's the foundation on which an institution can be built. It has to have somebody showing up and bringing the same energy and optimism. Day after day for years to have a chance for sort of scale to accrue around this this company, and if you're tired, if you're drained, if you're not inspired, if you're not curating a diet of the right brain food and thinking about who you're spending your time with, and making sure your relationships outside of work are in a great place, you know, then you're going to be in a bad state, and that state is going to color how you perceive opportunities and threats, and it's going to impact your decision making and and ultimately make you a far less effective leader. And so, you know, I think leadership people see it as something that's is about how you interact with others and tell other people what to do. But for me, I think it's about managing yourself. Because if you're a leader, there's there's no one else to manage you. You have to learn how to manage yourself and and it really starts with managing your inner world and creating a sense, you know, of calm determination. Because I think a calm mind is greatest weapon a leader can have go back

David Novak 36:01 

to my entire conversation with Walter, Episode 171 here on how leaders lead, you know, and during this whole process, you mentioned that your board had turned over quite a bit. And, you know, I don't know if this is correct. I may have read this wrong, but it seemed like it could be wrong, but it seemed like you have four former airline CEOs on your board. What's that like? I mean, I'm thinking, Man, if I had four restaurant CEOs by board, I'm not sure I'd like that too much. How are you taking them with you? That's got that is one hell of a leadership challenge.

Bob Jordan 36:36 

We do have a board that has turned over a lot. We were in the middle of board refresh ourselves, before the, you know, before the issues with Elliot. And then we have the five seat, the five seats that changed hands, you know, with with the the workout with Elliot. So we have a board whose tenure a couple of years ago was, I think eight years on average. That is, that is now a year and a half. So the board is is very different. What I'm really proud of is the board came together quickly. And you wouldn't know, sitting in a board meeting that these folks have come together recently. It feels like they're they've been working together for years. Number one. Number two, you couldn't pick out, you know, who's an Elliot quote, unquote board member. And not everybody wants to come together to do good for Southwest Airlines. Now to your specific question, yes, there are four former airline CEOs on the board, including our chair. God

David Novak 37:37 

bless you, Bob.

Bob Jordan 37:40 

Well again, you know, my demeanor is fairly easy going if you can't tell. And to me, the net is positive, because these folks have done all kinds of things. We have folks on our board who have run very different airlines, had very different products, have flown overseas, have different different aircraft, and as we contemplate the current changes, but then as we as we contemplate the next set of changes, where Southwest Airlines going to be in five years, eight years, the experience that they're bringing to the table is incredibly helpful. So I tell you, I understand what you're saying, but I would tell you net, net, I see as a positive because the experience that they're providing and the advice is very, very helpful. As we change and we adapted and really become a different Southwest Airlines,

David Novak 38:32 

I think there's a big learning there that sometimes you have to flip the script. You have to look at something. What people would say, hey, you know, never want this to happen and say, Yeah, but I'm getting this experience. I wouldn't have without it too.

Bob Jordan 38:46 

You have to also look at it and go, you know, it is so that is, that is our board, you know, through the number of things that have happened, that is the board of Southwest Airlines. And even if you looked at that and said, Oh, I don't like that, which is not what I'm saying it is. And so you've got to go from where you are and and find the best in that. And again, I you know, the the experience that these folks are bringing to the table is very helpful.

David Novak 39:14 

Yeah, I can see that, you know, and it takes a secure leader to be able to handle that. So good for you. You know herb Keller once said, If you, if you sit on your laurels, you get a thorn in your butt.

Bob Jordan 39:27 

He did. He didn't say, he didn't say, but, but,

David Novak 39:31 

you know, so, so when you look out in the future, five to 10 years from now, what do you think will be Southwest Airlines pointed difference.

Bob Jordan 39:40 

Well, you know they you know, Herb always said, either you change or you die. I like to say that you know, either you embrace change or it's going to embrace you, one of the two, because you you are always changing. Everything around you is always changing. Just, I mean, just look at the last 90 days, right? And the economy. Me, while it's hard to say exactly where we will be, I will just tell you this. We were an airline in pursuit of fulfilling the needs and the desires of our customers, and so you'll see us constantly looking at our product, what we serve, where we serve, how we serve, and we'll continue to adapt frequently, whatever that means, whatever that means for our products, our aircraft, our airports, we'll do that. But more importantly, what won't change is the fact that we have the best people on the planet, and they provide the best service in the industry. Whatever we're providing, it'll be provided by the best people with a heart to serve the customers and to serve each other. That's what's not going to change about Southwest Airlines.

David Novak 40:47 

That's great, you know. And Bob, it's been so much fun, and I want to have some more with you with my lightning round of questions. Ready for this?

Bob Jordan 40:55 

I'm not sure we have to. We'll have to evaluate this after it's over.

David Novak 40:59 

All right, what three words best describe you? He's

Bob Jordan 41:02 

a nice guy. That was more than three. Probably nice guy. Yeah, four.

David Novak 41:08 

I'll give you four there. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it

Bob Jordan 41:12 

be? I think I'd like to be Abraham Lincoln. Just understand what he was facing. What's your biggest pet peeve, not dealing in data, window seat or aisle seat? Oh, window for sure. Who would play you in a movie? Probably my son. Everybody tells us we look alike, sound alike and are alike.

David Novak 41:31 

What's something you'd only know about Southwest as the CEO?

Bob Jordan 41:35 

What a wonderful, wonderful place this is. You

David Novak 41:39 

get two front row tickets to anything you want. Where are you going and who are you taking with you? I

Bob Jordan 41:45 

want to take my wife, because she's a history buff, and we're going to be at the Gettysburg Address.

David Novak 41:50 

What's the one thing you do just for you?

Bob Jordan 41:52 

Probably nothing, rock climb. I love to rock climb.

David Novak 41:58 

Besides your family. What's your most prized possession?

Bob Jordan 42:01 

It's a stack of handmade comic book that my seven year old grandson has made for me. What's something about you? A few people would know that's a really hard one, because I am told all the time that I overshare and overshare and overshare.

David Novak 42:20 

What's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss?

Bob Jordan 42:24 

I try to meditate 10 minutes every morning just to clear my head.

David Novak 42:28 

That's great. You know, I recently started that myself, and I find it very helpful. That's the end of the lightning round. A few more questions. I'll let you go. There's no doubt. You know, you've been successful, Bob, but I'm curious, what's something that you've had to sacrifice to achieve what you've really achieved so far in your career.

Bob Jordan 42:48 

You know, I because my career has been more than I ever would have thought. You know, I'm not really a position aspiration person. I've just want, I want to do fun work. So this is far beyond anything I would have ever, ever, ever dreamed. So, you know, maybe time. But this has not been a sacrifice. This has been a labor of love to work at Southwest Airlines.

David Novak 43:14 

You know, we've talked about how you lead at work. How do you lead at home?

Bob Jordan 43:19 

You know, I'm probably pretty gentle. I like to my kids are both almost 40. Not give too much advice, be there for them. Be there for the grandkids. Just invest the time love my family and be there for them without being overbearing.

David Novak 43:36 

And what role does your wife play as the first lady of Southwest Airlines,

Bob Jordan 43:40 

she is awesome because she number one. She supports all the time that I'm away and all the things that you have to do as a CEO, and she will do anything to be there that is needed. So she's a wonderful person. Loves people, and a lot of times we go to, you know, these big company events, and they asked to talk to her and not to me. So

David Novak 44:05 

that's awesome. What do you see Bob as your unfinished business?

Bob Jordan 44:08 

You know, I'm content, if you can tell I again, I have a lot of faith, and I'm content, if you know, if life were to end today, I'm content I'd like to spend time, you know, just doing whatever I can to mentor others, mentor mentor leaders and people coming up and just be a support for others that have not yet had the opportunities that I've been blessed with in my life.

David Novak 44:34 

You know, when you've gone through so much change that you've gone through new board, Elliot, all the stuff that's been going on. You know, there's always these naysayers that say the best years of Southwest Airlines are behind them. I mean, what do you say to those guys?

Bob Jordan 44:50 

Well, first everything, they're, they're naysayers around everything in life. You know, when we went through the, you know, last summer and. And the activist investor, the difficult part of that were there before we had our workout. I just didn't read or listen to any of that. My focus was on how we could work our way through this. Do good for Southwest Airlines. Come to a conclusion. Because if you get, if you if you focus on the negativity, you're never going to get out of it. That's exactly what folks want you to do. You've got to be convicted of what you're doing. You've got to be realistic in the data and the feedback and then move forward and just not give too much air to the negativity. I am not a negative person. I'm a very much an optimist. And you have, you have to be a realist as well. But you just can't give, you just can't give oxygen to that nonsense.

David Novak 45:42 

You know, last question here, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a better leader?

Bob Jordan 45:50 

I think, focus on your people. Give them the opportunities, develop them and just let them let turn them loose. There is nothing more fun in my career than when you see somebody you've had a chance to work with just do great. Do better than you. Do better than I could ever do that. That is, I think, just true joy is when somebody that you've had a chance to work with, that you know and you love, just has all kinds of opportunities and succeeds.

David Novak 46:19 

Well, Bob, I have to tell you, I'm really impressed with the approach that you take to business, the experience that you have, the fact that you've been able to work through the challenging issues, and have so much optimism about the program, the transformation that you're putting together at Southwest Airlines. And I wish you all the best, and thank you for taking the time to share your insights.

Bob Jordan 46:38 

Hey, thank you so much. It's been fun.

David Novak 46:45 

If you want to know what grounded optimism looks like, just spend an hour with Bob Jordan. He's honest and direct about the challenges Southwest has been facing. But at the same time, he brings this calm optimism, the sense that the future is exciting and that as people are capable of rising to the occasion. That's not easy to do, but it's the heart of effective leadership. It's being a realist about what you're dealing with, an optimist about what's ahead, and not, as Bob says, giving too much oxygen to naysayers and negativity. So here's a challenge for this week. Pick one situation on your plate right now and write down two truths about it, one that keeps you grounded in reality and one that helps you see the opportunity. Tape it to your desk, drop it in a Slack message, or share it with your team, because when you can hold both realism and optimism in the same hand, that's how you get through the tough stuff in front of you and onto the good stuff ahead. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders are both realist and optimist. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Jimmy kirschdorfer, the CEO of ISCO industries, so be sure you subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss it. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business, so that you will become the best leader you can be. You.