David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today, I'm joined by Bernie Marcus, the co founder of the Home Depot at 93 years young, Bernie is an absolute icon, the Home Depot broke the mold for retail and is continuing to succeed where lots of other retailers are struggling. And that's because of the foundation that Bernie said. And you can really understand why when you spend time with Bernie, from the very beginning, he made decisions based on what's good for the customer. Because for Bernie, customer service isn't just a transaction, it's a relationship. If you want to succeed in your work, you've got to take care of your customer, and do right by them. And this conversation is gonna get your wheels turning with ideas to do just that. And it's gonna have you laughing because I got to tell you, Bernie has got some incredible stories, and he does not hold back. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, the one and only Bernie, Marcus.

And Bernie, here you are, you're you're 93 years old, and you just released a brand new book, kick up some dust. Why did you feel it was the time for you to tackle this project?

Bernie Marcus 1:33 

Well, frankly, a lot of it had to do with Coronavirus. I was locked up the way everybody else was. I'm a active kind of a guy, and I wanted to do things. And what this then write a book. And I found Catherine Lewis, who is great. I'm not a good writer, I speak well, but I don't write well. And Catherine was perfect for me. Because she was able to take my words, put them in a book. And I think that the book is basically what I think and how I feel. And frankly, I have not spent most of my life thinking back. And a lot of it was a revelation to me, because I always even at 93 I'm thinking about five years from now where where I think things should be and where I'd like to be. But you know, my career has really been a blessing to me. I'm lucky I met the people I have Ken Langone was critical in my life. Arthur Blank was critical. Pat Barrow was critical. George Schultz was critical. There are so many people who form the basis of who I am. And every one of them taught me something that I lacked before. And it just showed that anybody who thinks they're the smartest guy in the world, they're probably the dumbest guy in the world.

David Novak 3:02 

You know, Bernie, you know, a lot of people and and I have to tell you, I was absolutely amazed when I was reading your book, that Pitbull Rocher forward. You know, I figured Frank Blake, the former CEO of Home Depot could do the profits. But when I saw the pit bull, what wrote the foreword that kind of that took me back. How in the world did Bernie Marcus GET TO KNOW pit bull?

Bernie Marcus 3:25 

Well, you know, he tells a story about how we could get through the gate of St. Andrews. Place where I live, because nobody believed that pit bull would be a friend of mine. And they wouldn't let him in. And I finally got him in. But the truth is, he's really a kind of a mirror image of myself. His parents were immigrants that came over from the old country. They were poor as hell, he had to make it for himself in this world. And he's, he's a real entrepreneur, and a capitalist, whether he admitted it or not. Because he's done some wonderful things, especially in the education field. He's been terrific. We taught class together, he and I have a lot of fun with the students. And we found out that we are very similar, different accents, different upbringing. Parents were different, but we're the same. We believe in that you can make something yourself, but you have to work like hell in order to get it. And he did that. And so did I. And fortunately, God smiled on us and gave us what we have.

David Novak 4:43 

Absolutely. And as I understand a birdie, you had over 90 book titles. How'd you land on this one? You kick up some dust.

Bernie Marcus 4:50 

Well, we fought for it. Frankly. We wanted something like this because we wanted to be able to get somebody's attention. As part of the dues yourself thing, you know, we're telling people get off your ass, and do something and make life better for somebody. You know,

David Novak 5:10 

Bernie, while we're on the subject of titles, I'd love to have you tell us some of the names that were rejected, before you got to the Home Depot name, and how you came up with the name Home Depot.

Bernie Marcus 5:23 

Oh, the Home Depot. It was it was amazing. We got all these investors together, were undercapitalized. We didn't have enough money to survive, that we had to get a a line of credit from a bank in order to do it. And about 30 days before, we still didn't have a name. We hired a firm out of Canada, and they wanted to call a bed, Bernie's build all going me in prison garb. And you know, saying they locked me up because we charge this low prices. And in fact, I have a picture of what they recommended in my office. And it was being a prison guard. But there were so many names. And it came about Marjorie, one of our investors was at a gas station, she looked across, and it was a train depot. And she started to posle words. And she called me right from the gas station and said I have a name. This is 30 days before. So we had the building we're we're setting up we're putting product in, we had no name on the building. And when she called me, she said, Well, part of the reason we could clear the name, every time we went in somebody else call on the name. So she started to play house depot and product depot. And then she finally came up with Home Depot. And she called me and she said I found the name Home Depot. And I said, I don't think I like it. But let's try it. I wasn't in love with it. I thought it was a good name. But then I called my attorneys and I said can we clear this name? And they came back and they said one guy, I don't know is St Louis or something own own the name and we were able to buy it from him right away. And we we incorporated. But the truth is think about the name. What the hell's the name mean? Gimbels, Macy's, Bloomingdale's. What they don't mean anything Neiman Marcus, what do they mean? They don't mean anything. But what happens is that you build a brand around it. And eventually, people associate the word, the name with what you produce what your product is. And it turned out that Home Depot today is one of the great brands in the world. I mean, it's known everywhere I go everywhere. And wherever I go, and I say Home Depot, they say, oh, you know, even if they're overseas?

David Novak 8:06 

Well, you build one of the most admired companies in the world. You're the largest retailer, you're it's an incredible success story. And you know, it's interesting, Bernie's, you're right, kick up some dust at 93. And you actually started home depot at 49. When you look back, and you had to reflect when you're writing this book, how has your leadership changed over time? Or have you always been basically the same leader?

Bernie Marcus 8:32 

No, I think my style is the same. I'm an entrepreneur, I'm easy. You know, I know your books, and you talk about how CEOs, how they basically operate, I believe in surrounding myself with smarter people than I am. And let them free. Let them do their entrepreneurial things, you know, keep a track on him and keep controls so they don't go off the reservation. But generally, I like to have the smartest people in the world. Many CEOs surround themselves with people who are dumber, because they want to be the smartest guy in the house. I don't want to I want to be the dumbest guy in the house. And I want all these people around me who are smarter than I am in different areas. I for instance, you know, Arthur Blank, Arthur Blank has talents that I don't have. And he's, you know, he's a pedantic and you know, kind of guy. His desk is cleaned. If you saw what my desk look like, you wouldn't believe it looks like that terminated. We're just the opposite kind of guys. It's like the odd couple. And you know, I'm playing the guy who's, you know, free and easy and authors. He's who he is. And we were partners for 40 years, working together. And if you've ever met two people who are opposite, man, it's the two of us. I mean, I wouldn't go into his office some Time is sprinkled dust on his desk. He would come in and go preserve, because there was never any dust on his desk. Me You couldn't even find a desk.

David Novak 10:12 

That's because you're a creative guy. And you have so many ideas. You're throwing things all around the place. And I mean, there's no question that that's the difference. And he's a finance guy, you're the marketing guy to guys become the super blender, you create the super milkshake. And you also had Ken Langone who's a mutual friend of ours. And Ken is, you know, a hell of a guy as you well know. It and a great leader, what did can teach you about leadership? And and if you could give me a story to illustrate it?

Bernie Marcus 10:40 

Well, Kenny, he questions everything. In other words, there's nothing he doesn't question. Good morning. What do you mean by that? He's just, he's just that kind of a guy. And he's, he's a real devil's advocate. So Kenny, who, of course, wasn't in the operations of business, we use him as a special adviser, especially on financial things. But we you know, who's the lead director on the board of directors, he went into the stores. I mean, if you know him, you know, he spends a lot of time in home, Home Depot stores, talking to people. So he was very much involved with our business, but not in the actual operation of the business. Kenny is a very smart, intuitive kind of person that can spot things that you could never believe. And he would spot things that we never thought of. And he would, over the years, disagree with one direction or another that we're on the go on. But most cases, he was so supportive. And he's he you know, he's a positive guy. He wakes up in the morning, and the glass is half full. And he wants to make it full every day. He's just so full of energy, and so full of thoughts. And he's not afraid to share with you.

David Novak 12:03 

That's absolutely right. And you know, you're no wallflower. You got Arthur Blank, he's no wallflower. And you got Ken Langone, I see the three of you guys be co founders a Home Depot in a room. You got big personalities, strong opinions. You know, when you look back on a birdie, what was the biggest disagreement you three ever had? And how did you resolve it?

Bernie Marcus 12:24 

I can't think of a big one. But there were many. And I know that Kenny, I board meetings, he would incessantly disagree with something that I wanted to do. He's on my foundation board, a very key member of my foundation board. And when I announced that I wanted to build an aquarium in the city of Atlanta, he went totally reserved. He said, That's a stupid as dumbest thing I've ever heard of. And finally, and we we argued back and forth at a board meeting, we had all board members, because he finally said to me, Bernie, it's your money, and you could do whatever you want with it. But he finally gave in and he didn't win every argument, I will tell you that. I'll tell you what he he made me think twice about so many things that I did. And many of them he was right. And I was wrong. And I think that one of the things that David, you should know, a good leader is somebody who listens to people, but I mean, listens, incorporate what they're saying, into your brain and into your computer. And think about it. And if they're right, you admit that you're wrong, and you adopt whatever policy they have. And so many times he was right about so many things. But of course, you know, that was the same thing I did with George Shultz and many other people that I met my lifetime. They were all very smart. And you had to listen to what they said. And in many cases, they made sense, and change the direction you're going in. Bernie,

David Novak 14:09 

if you had to pick one trait that separates you as a leader, what would it be and tell me a time when it really paid off for you?

Bernie Marcus 14:17 

Well, I can tell you 1000 times this thing about listening, where I mean, people don't listen, you know, you say something to them. And you know, it like bounces off a rock. They this prayer doesn't permeate their brain. You know, I would be in a store. And I've had it'd be a 17 or 18 year old kid. I was walking through a store one day, and there was a product that we're out of and I said why don't we have it? And he said, we're always out of it. And I said, What Why are you out of it? Why don't you order mores? It was no place to put it. So I said, Well, that's pretty stupid. In other words, if you had to tie was a three times more a wash your hair, would you sell it? He said, If I had 10 times more I could sell it. I said, so why don't we do something? He said, I don't know, I would stack it on a damn floor. Well, that turned out to be a multi million dollar idea. I went back and I said, Holy Christ, this guy is right. Let's stack this stuff on a floor. Because we had no room in the shelves. And the more we put out, the more we sold. So listening really became the key thing for me. We taught our people when we, when we trained our people, to listen to people, some of the greatest ideas came out into the most unlikely places. And you can make millions of dollars I can give you 50 different times that happened to me in my lifetime.

David Novak 15:52 

You know, I remember you told Frank Blake that, you know, you're going to tell a joke as a CEO, but remember something, you're really not that funny. And, you know, what's the wisdom in that birdie?

Bernie Marcus 16:08 

Well, you know, as a CEO, you know, you're used to, unfortunately, I didn't have those kinds of people. But you're used to this, you know, yes, you're right. You're right, you're right. My people would say, That's bullshit, it doesn't work. And they did. And they weren't afraid of a kickback. Because I want them to be honest with me and forthright and it made an impact on me. Look, we're we're interested in only one thing, making a business better, making a better experience for the customer. And if they had a better idea than I did, then I had to know Incorporated,

David Novak 16:47 

but you're like a very outspoken guy. You're very opinionated. And so here you are saying, Oh, you just tell me how full of shit I am. Okay, you know, I just can't wait to hear it. Right? I meant you had to have some courage to take on Bernie Marcus, didn't you?

Bernie Marcus 17:01 

Well, we told them, number one, they would never get fired. If they were respectful. In other words, you could tell me I'm full of shit in a respectful way, not in a disrespectful way. So as long as they were respectful, it was acceptable. It was okay. And if it made sense, then certainly it may it was respectful. And listen, I remember the time where I went into stores, and they were spending their Mondays in their office filling out these forms. And you know, I was trying to defend our systems. And of course, the key, which I didn't write about in the book was that one of the guys got up and said, Bernie, you so full of shit, the systems don't work. And I stopped and I said, How many people think of bullshit. They all raised their hand. And I said, Well, I must be full of shit. There's something really good. I didn't put that in the book, because it didn't quite go over yet. Over. But that's the way it happened. You accept it, you accept it, as long as it's respectful. And as long as it's positive. And as long as it's meaningful. You know, if somebody says I'm full of shit, because they don't like me, that's a different story.

David Novak 18:25 

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You're arguably you along with Pat Farrell, you really became the best merchandisers in retail history. I mean, you guys are incredible. And I'd like you to just walk me through some of the things you did to make the customer experience one of a kind at the Home Depot and maximize your sales.

Bernie Marcus 19:33 

Well, one day we're I'll tell you, I came out of an experience I had, I was in the store and I and there was a customer there. And they were doing a refurbishing of their house. And I kept talking to the guy, the man the husband, and I kept saying you have to do this. And she looked at me and she said Why are you talking to him and he He doesn't know anything about what I'm doing. I am running this this thing. If anybody's going to pick out a color, and anyone is going to do repair in our house, I'm going to do it. He's the dummy that does it. I'm the one that takes it out. And I came back to Pat and I said, I found out something today the women really control the date redecoration in the house. And Pat said, Well, why don't we do have a class for women. And then we started to give classes for women, it was a brilliant idea. And we taught them how to do their own tile or how to do electrical, they turned out to be great. And they were our best customers. Actually, the guys are word dummies, are old families who realize, you know, we want to do something in a house, the woman really controls us. So that whole turn of events was a very important one for Home Depot. And Pat fired is the one that came up with how to deal with it. And that was giving classes and it really turned out to be a major decision for us.

David Novak 21:08 

So you teach classes not only to the women, but also the man. So you really give people the instruction, they need to really, you know, redo their houses. And one of the thing that I noticed that you did, which I really thought was fascinating is that you walk into Home Depot, there's no numbers on the aisles. Where'd that come from?

Bernie Marcus 21:24 

Because we wanted people to wander. In other words, we didn't want them to come in and just be able to go to a shelf, pick what they want and go out. We figured if they wondered, they'd see products on the shelf and say, Hey, I need that. So our whole theory was, if you came into the Home Depot to spend $20, you had to leave spending $250. And it worked for many years. Listen, today, we become so sophisticated. It's all online, it's all on computer, and you can walk through the phone and find what you want. But they're so far ahead of where I was, in those days. They keep upgrading our systems and upgrading it and the customers are making a better experience every day. But in those days, we wanted people to wonder, and people would always say to me, I hate to go to your store. I just hate it. And I would say why. And I'd say I spent a fortune there last week and I had no idea. I came in for lifeboats for crying out loud. And I walked out with a drill.

David Novak 22:35 

Now you also had a one 800 Number I think is one 800. Ben Hill. Tell us about that.

Bernie Marcus 22:41 

Well, that's also Pat Farah, when customers called in, we want to make sure that that the right person got the right got, you know, typically you call him and some dummy answers the phone and says Yes, sir. No, sir. My manager called you back that Home Depot, especially in the early years, our theory was it started at the top. So he came up with the idea of using a name Ben Hill, it was the name of an exit off the highway. So you call Ben Hill. Ben Hill was whoever was on in that day. And it started with me. I was number one. Arthur was number two, Pat was number three. So whenever the calls came in, it would be in that order, I would get the first one. And believe me when I got the call. And I heard that people had a bad experience or didn't have a product that work. I made sure it happened. So we did that in the early years. And that created a real trust factor between us and the consumer. They really trusted us. And a believe we really cared about them, because we did. So it's

David Novak 23:54 

a customer service hotline. And if you're in a store and somebody calls in and they have an issue, you are number one, and you'd pick that thing up, and you'd handle it directly yourself. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. You know, and, you know, I was really impressed that you had a liberal return policy, you could literally at one time at Home Depot, you could buy a a chainsaw, use it, and then you could bring it back and you get a full refund. And then I have to ask you, I know this was a part of your concept. What was your thinking? When you find out the CEO comes in from the outside and takes away that return policy that you had? How did you feel about that?

Bernie Marcus 24:36 

Well, he pissed me off, and I'll tell you where it affected myself. I had people working for me in Atlanta, we bought a washing machine at home people a dishwasher, and I noticed that they were washing dishes by hand. I said why are you washing by hand and they say well because the dishwasher doesn't work. And I said well, we bought it at the Home Depot and He said, Yeah. And I said, Well, why don't you call them and just get it out of here and get a new one. And they said, well, Nardelli had this new policy that the manufacturer really gave the warranty wasn't home depot anymore. And I went totally preserved our deli up and I called them every name under the sun. And I said, get that frickin washing machine dishwasher at my goddamn house now, or I'll shove it up your ass. He said, Okay, I'll go, Okay, I'll have it done. This is only one of the policies that he changed. And as soon as Frank got back in, that's one of the first policies we went back to.

David Novak 25:42 

You know, Bernie, it's interesting, because I don't know if a lot of people really understand this, but you have this return policy, and everybody goes, Oh, man, that's gonna cost you so much money. But in the end, because you put the customer first like that, don't you end up making more money, Bernie?

Bernie Marcus 25:58 

Well, remember how many how much dollars people spend on advertising. They spend millions of dollars, in many cases a day, we're better off just taking care of them customer and not spending as much money as they have to, they spend a lot of money, because they're trying to convince the customer that they're better than they really are. Why aren't you just good? And start that way. And you'll find that your business gets bigger. We just believe whatever we said, we believed in anything that made the customers have a good experience, is what we did.

David Novak 26:38 

You know, one of the things that you said Bernie, was that in I quote you on so we don't own customers, they're on lease, and it's a short term lease. How did this view impact how you would literally galvanize your team? How did you get the team to really feel that in their bones like you did?

Bernie Marcus 26:53 

Well, first of all, one of the things that we did, that was I think amazing in our company, was that author and I went to the board and said, Put a provision and actually vote on it, that we will never take an option in the company. In other words, we could have been, I guess I be as wealthy as Warren Buffett today, have we taken options, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars every year, and over the years, think about 20 years, I God knows how many shares I would have owned. But our preference was to share it with all of our associates, and have managers, assistant managers, department heads all have stock in the company. So they all felt they were working for themselves. If it when a stock went up, they got richer, the reason stock goes up, because the sales go up as sales go up. Because the customers have a great experience. And they understood that. And even today, if you go into the stores, they'll tell you how proud they are. Don't stop at a company going to store and look at somebody's got a badge as 15 years or 25 years. 25 years of property a millionaire. They own stock in the company. And the reason they keep working is because they're working for themselves. And the the beneficiaries of the good work, and the way they treat customers.

David Novak 28:24 

You know, another thing you did along those lines verde to capture that, and I was always impressed by this as well as that when you walk into Home Depot used to wear their aprons. And, and I still see it a little bit today, which is I'm an owner asked me.

Bernie Marcus 28:39 

Yeah, listen, I will go to the store. It's somebody you know, I will take care of a customer. I know many cases they would argue with me. And they would say you know, this is bad or that is bad. And then I would say my name is Bernie Marcus and I started Home Depot. And I'd say, oh my god, Mr. Marcus. Oh, my God. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean what I said, when I said no, no, I'm happy to hear what you said. Because any complaint was one that I wanted to hear. I didn't want to hear good things, because we paid for the good things is supposed to be good. What I want to hear is what's not working, so we can fix it.

David Novak 29:20 

You know, you even talk about the importance of cultivating customers. That's an interesting word. You know, what did that mean to you cultivating customers?

Bernie Marcus 29:28 

Well, you're taking a customer who had inability to do anything in the house, except change a light bulb. And all of a sudden one day, they're putting in a ceiling fan. And the next day, they're fixing the toilet. And that's cultivation. And I'll give me an example. A couple of weeks ago, I had a meeting. I haven't I haven't met somebody. And he said to me, he's working on something in his house. And he didn't know anything about anything about how to do it himself. And he keeps going back to the store. And they keep teaching him how to use the product. And when he makes a mistake, they give him a card. And he calls that individual. And that individual walks him through whatever he was working on. And that's cultivation. And as you do that, people trust you more, because they know it's not just to sell a product, is to sell a service. And selling a product for a lot of money doesn't mean anything our policy was, you know, if you have a choice of selling the customer, something for $500, and you have something that's $100, that would do the job for him, some $100. One, you don't want to sell them, it's not not important to sell them a big one. And our people took to that. Because that's if their relative came into the store their mother, their father, their brothers, that's what they would do with their brothers. Listen, our whole business is the 500,000 people. And those people are working the stores are the people that make our customer, even today. They're wonderful. When a customer comes into the store, they think about what's good for the customer. Now, what's good for Home Depot,

David Novak 31:24 

you know, I know at the Home Depot, you'd love to tell stories about your customers, and what would be your favorite customer story of all time. And I know you have hundreds of them. But what would be the one that you just love to tell the most?

Bernie Marcus 31:37 

Well, there was one, we disappointed a customer. They were doing a kitchen. And we promised delivery the kitchen. And they pulled their old kitchen out. They had the plumbers available. And the day we said we deliver the new kitchen, we fail them. And of course a Ben Hill call came in. And I got the Ben Hill call. And I and the guy started oh really unleashed a torrent of obscenities that made you know, you guys killed me and son of a bitches that that, you know, and everything. And I just took it all in. I said, you know, 100%, right. I said we're gonna take care of this for you. And the end is that we built the kitchen. And we gave it to him for nothing. Because we had, there was like a three month period where this guy had no kitchen. And it was over Thanksgiving and Christmas. And I just put myself in his place. He had no kitchen. He had his family for dinner, where the hell are they going to give him Thanksgiving? Turkey. And so we made up for it. And we we built the kitchen for him.

David Novak 32:54 

That's a great story. And Bernie, you're obviously a visionary. And and I got to ask you what you have this aha moment for the Home Depot concept. And what made you think it would work? I mean, when did it hit you that you're gonna have this big box, and you're gonna stack it high and sell it lower than everybody else. And you know, you could get everything in the world that you wanted. When did that idea hit, you will

Bernie Marcus 33:19 

accumulate over a period of time, I was running this company called handy Dan, which was typical of all the hardware stores in America, we were a small, do it yourself place the 35,000 feet or 40,000 feet. And we carry two of this and one of that, and three of this. And customers would come in and ask us for a brand that we didn't have, or something that we didn't stop. And it happened every single day. And I was in the stores. And I liked it. And as I was running handy, then I didn't know how to solve it because he had 35,000 square foot buildings. So I began to think in terms of what if we opened a gigantic store, and what have we carried everything that a customer would want under one roof. In other words, they didn't have to go to hardware stores, electrical stores, plumbing stores or paint stores anymore, or lumber yards for that matter. If we all had it under one roof, we could solve the problem. Now the problem was that the numbers didn't add up. Either the accountant sat down and put this all together and showed me that we couldn't do it. And especially because I wanted to sell at prices that were less than anybody else because I wanted to buy direct from manufacturers, not from distributors and give that money back to the consumer. And the numbers didn't work and often kept saying it doesn't work. And I remember just before we met with the investors office said to me A it's all facade it doesn't work. And I said, just changed the numbers for Christ's sake. I said, instead of using $20 million for sales, put a 30. He said, That's dishonest. I said, Yeah, I said, but that's we're going to do much more than that. And the truth is, we did double and triple that. Listen, it's like opening the aquarium. I knew that in the middle of Atlanta, it was going to be a triple header, it was going to be a grand slam home run. And it was 3 million people a year came through the aquarium and change the dynamics in the whole city of Atlanta, and the state of Georgia. And the same way, kind of intuitively. I knew this was going to work.

David Novak 35:45 

Now one of the things that's interesting, Bernie is that if you wouldn't have gotten fired and handy, Dan, this has never happened, right?

Bernie Marcus 35:52 

Oh, Sandy Segal of God rest his soul really did something great for me. And my, you know, my wife, Billy happened to run into Sandy Segal of somewhere. And in her own style, she said to him, Sandy, we have so much to thank you for God bless you for what you did. And he looked at her like she was crazy. She, she just carried it on. Thank you, Sandy, we would not be anything what we are today if it wasn't for you. And so that was a lucky break. You know, that's one of the things in life in the book that I talked about failure. I think that everybody has a failure somewhere along the line, and how they recover makes a difference in their lives. Some people don't ever recover, keep thinking about, you know, why did they do it? Who can they blame, and that they spend the rest of their lives blaming somebody. And my theory is, just move on, move on and do what you do best. And life will turn out to be a better life.

David Novak 37:01 

That's a good theory, Bernie, but you know, tell us honestly, how'd you feel when you got your butt canned? I mean, you know, I mean, where are you thinking, Oh, I'm just gonna move on. And you know, things are gonna be great. What was a really like,

Bernie Marcus 37:13 

though, it takes time. It doesn't I was I was stunned. I mean, I'd never been fired in my life. And I was running a good company, we were making lots of money. And it was no reason for me to be fired. If I, you know, if I had stolen money, or I had done something, then you say, well, you deserved it. But I didn't deserve it. I mean, and author didn't and Ron Brill did. And here, we were just out on the street. And it took me several weeks to get over it. And finally, you know, Ken Langone, you know, that famous call where he said, You just been hitting the asset of the Golden Horseshoe, I began to realize that this idea was a great idea. And I wanted to expand on it, and do something with it. So there's a lot of things. But the truth is, at one point, I had to put Sandy Segal off away and compartmentalize them into a part of my brain that I didn't want to go back to, you know, I hated them, I despise it. And I had to not let that overcome my good judgment and stop me from you know, doing what I could do best.

David Novak 38:29 

So you pick yourself up off the mat, you get back in the ring, and you raise money, you build the store that you didn't have a name for for 30 days before he opened. And yet you have your grand opening, you know, what was the initial reaction?

Bernie Marcus 38:45 

Well, there's something we didn't do in the book. I didn't tell anybody. But we had a grant, we had an opening, he had a double truck page, you know, two pages of Home Depot and in the airline Journal Constitution, the day that we were supposed to open, we opened on a Thursday, I remember, they left the head out of the paper. Oh, it wasn't there. So we had no Ed, there we are with this big store. Nobody knew what the hell was a what is it a train depot, and I want to have a clue. And nobody came. And rather than call a publisher, and just read him, I called them up. And I just said, you know, in a very subtle little voice, you just effectively put us out of business. And you put like, 120 people out of business. And he said what did I do? And I said, I You left the ad out. He said, Oh my God, I don't believe it. And because I didn't parade them, and go after him and call them every name under the sun. He gave us the back page or the front section for one year. We could never buy that. And that became a very important part of our success. not treating people like that. Animals and being reasonable with people and trying to, you know, that was as important as anything we ever did. So we had the back page. And from that point on, people started to come in. And they would tell, you know, I would see somebody somebody coming in, and I would say, where are you from? I'd say Athens, I say, Athens. That's a two hour drive from Atlanta. What are you doing here? Well, my cousin was in here and told me, that is the best place and prices are unbelievable. And I drove down with my truck. And we're filling our truck up. And so I knew we're successful. That was the day I knew we're successful.

David Novak 40:44 

That's interesting. But you know, when you you didn't have that original ad that you had bought, so the customers don't show up. And you're sitting there in this huge store with all this inventory. You've gone to the banks, you've done all this. What was the soundtrack going on in your mind when this happened?

Bernie Marcus 41:03 

Well, I said that my wife didn't let me near a razor. I mean, it was it was a horror story. But you know, we overcame it. And just like I said, you just compartmentalize and you move on.

David Novak 41:25 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Bernie Marcus in just a moment. As you've heard us talk about Bernie co founded the Home Depot with Arthur Blank and Ken Langone. Now Ken is a mentor of mine, and a truly special person. And there's a lot you can learn from Ken about how to show up for people around you and be the leader people want to follow. We need to

Ken Langone 41:45 

step out of our own bodies for a moment and say, Okay, I'm going into the body of that kid that's over there in the garden department, or that kid that's over there in the PE department. And I'm going to try and visualize what he's going through right this minute. And when you use empathy, when you use a sense of compassion, and you let that person know that they really matter, that they're precious to you. And more importantly, they're precious to what you're trying to accomplish. And you share that successful, you let them go home feeling they've accomplished something that they do you turn that person on that way, David, it's a force that can't be stopped.

David Novak 42:22 

My entire conversation with Ken is full of terrific insights like this. So scroll back in the feed and give it a listen. It's episode 89 here on how leaders lead.

You know, in retail, Bernie, you, you know this better? Anybody, you got to try new things. And and you're known for being someone who's confronted failure, you're not afraid of failure? You have that mindset. But how do you spread that? If you're a leader? How do you spread that across your organization, so you get people taking some risks?

Bernie Marcus 42:58 

Do yourself, in other words, don't tell them do it. If I would be in the store, there will be six or seven people around me walking around me, and I would see a customer down the aisle, I would leave them and take care of the customer, I set the example. So after a while, if there was a customer down there, people would split off and take care of the customer leave me by myself, which is what I wanted them to do. I didn't want him to be around me. I want him to be around the customers. So it's by setting the example. And if you set the example, enough times, people say if he could do it, I can do it. And they do it.

David Novak 43:45 

You know, I read where you spent 80% of your time talking about the things that went wrong or could be better. How did you balance that with people's innate desire to be recognized?

Bernie Marcus 43:58 

Well, you do both. Hey, listen, people who do good job, you always have to reward them for it. And the key is, you got to be able to balance it. Now sometimes, I would go too far. And I would know it where I would criticize what they were doing. And I give them enough credit for what they were doing right. And it would cause me to have to call them back on the phone and apologize and say by the way, I think you're doing a great job don't do what I was critical if you don't take it to heart and don't think I hate you for it. And they liked the fact that I get admit I made a mistake. Think about this a second. I don't know a politician, anywhere that has the ability to say I made a mistake. Most CEOs can't get it out of their mouths. They can't say I made mistake. Making a mistake is the simplest thing in the world and admitting too, it is the simplest thing in the world and changes people around tremendously. It changes the way they think it changes hands go have a deal with you. People just can't do it.

David Novak 45:14 

And you know, Bernie, you It's so obvious to me, I can see you going into the store and somebody has not done what you wanted to do. And you're, you're so passionate. You go crazy on this, but you seem to be a guy with the after it's all said and done, you're driving to the next door, you're going to the next place, you reflect on that and go, Oh, I better make that phone call.

Bernie Marcus 45:35 

Yeah, it's just it's people. It's how do you want to be treated? My God? How would I want to be treated David, I would not want to be treated that way. Where people took me for granted, number one, criticize me, unfairly number two, and didn't explain why they criticize me, that's a big deal. If I if I said it did or wrong. Now I'd have to explain what they could have done, and have a should have done it and get into a dialogue with them. And then after a while, they would say, I should have thought about that myself. If you make a dumb mistake, as long as it's honest. And and it was a judgment thing. Just correct it just make it right. And don't dwell on it. You know, today, you think about covering your ass. It's in a government work. In business, it's the same thing. People cover their ass and a cover up the stupid is dumbest things. And it costs a ton of money. And a final analysis, they spend more money on on a lie than they would have on something that was beneficial. And they keep doing it. And they don't understand how destructive it is, to a business and destructive for them. Because they're not honest with themselves. And and they're really basically lying and cheating, by not telling the truth.

David Novak 47:09 

Bernie, you know, one of the things that's interesting to me is that, you know, you start out in this big store, and you're taking the one 800 Ben Hill calls yourself, but now Home Depot? Well over 2000 stores, hundreds of 1000s of associates, how did you being the hands on entrepreneur that you are? How did you scale Home Depot? Because you couldn't take all those one 800 been held up? There's a how'd you scale that,

Bernie Marcus 47:40 

you know, you're putting in enough systems, and you're training of people. And it all has to do with training. It all has to do with spreading the culture. Before somebody has an ability to handle a Ben Hill call, they have to understand how important that role is that it's not just a job, that is a career, and that they have to understand that their part of their career is making that customer happy. And so when you get people that do that, and you have to scale it, of course, today, I mean, it's like 550,000 people working at Home Depot. I mean, think about how many Ben Hill calls we get a day. I mean, probably 1000s all over the country, and Guam and Honolulu, and Mexico and Canada. And how do you get that? How do you handle it? Well, fortunately for me, frankly followed Nardelli, and he started the work on it, then Craig linear, took it over. And now TED is now doing it. And they're all smart as hell. And they all think in terms of how to make life better for a customer. They all have the same culture. I meet with them a couple of times a year, even now. And I don't talk about systems when they tell me the systems they put in. I mean, I don't really believe it. These are things that Star Wars type of things. I don't even believe how the culture is the same. Treating the customers the same hasn't changed during the day we started.

David Novak 49:20 

And you're you're a huge learner. You know, you really get excited by learning new things. And one of the things I understand is you actually spend some time with Sam Walton who built Walmart. When you two got together. What was that like? And what was the biggest lesson you learned from him?

Bernie Marcus 49:37 

Well, Sam Walton was the smartest retailer I ever met in my life. I mean, he really was brilliant. And he did things that were way beyond me. He taught me about everyday low prices, not to put things on sale, but to sell them at everyday low prices. There are many things I learned from Sam that I wouldn't have learned from other people. The one thing I didn't learn from Sam is philanthropy. He was not philanthropic. He didn't give money away, except when it was good for business. In other words, he would do things for Bentonville, Arkansas. But that was it. And no matter how many conversations we had about it, he wasn't willing to go out of that sphere. He stayed in that sphere. But when you talk about retailers, he was smart as hell.

David Novak 50:28 

You know, I visited Walmart and Bentonville on a learning visit. And you know, I was interested in when I walked in the foyer and said today's stock prices X tomorrow's up to you. I just love that because it really got to the ownership that I know that you're such a big believer on but it When did you have that moment? Bernie Where were you realize that getting your your associates to really have ownership in your company was going to be critical to your success?

Bernie Marcus 50:58 

Well, really, from the beginning, because I recruited people from all over the country to come the Home Depot when we open and people gave up well paying jobs. In many cases, I paid them less. But I said to them made a promise. And I said when author and I get wealthy, you're gonna get wealthy along with us. You're gonna own a piece of the rocks from the very beginning. I made that promise to them. And I kept that promise.

David Novak 51:31 

Obviously, no, Ken Langone and Barney Hill was on our board. And they were, you know, obviously big Home Depot's and you know, but I believe you require your board members to spend time in the stores once a quarter. Now most leaders keep their board out of the day to day they you know, they try to, you know, bring the people in for the board baited and then set them off, you know, what drove your thinking to say, hey, as a board member, I want you out in our stores?

Bernie Marcus 51:58 

Well, first of all, going back to government controlling boards, every one of my board members own stock in the company, bought stock in a company. So they had a reason for that company survive, and the company to make it. And so I think that Kenny was very instrumental in making that change. Because Kenny was going into the stores, we didn't have to tell him to do it, he was doing it. And then we made it part of the policy, that every one of the board members had to go into stores. And we took people that that didn't go into stores and ask them to leave the board. If they didn't go to stores didn't know the business. When they came to a board meeting, they knew what was going on. They had a feel for it. And it was we didn't just give them a paper, typical boards that come for lunch. You know, people check their their brains at the door. And these are all entrepreneurial people. And I want to hear what they have to say, and I want their input. And most CEOs don't want their input.

David Novak 53:10 

I know that you're always thinking about the future. Right now you're thinking five years ahead. You know, that's just the way how you are? What was your process? Or did you have a process? Just intuitive tip for coming up with groundbreaking ideas? I mean, how did you make yourself think about the future? It just happened naturally.

Bernie Marcus 53:28 

That's, that's who I am. I'll tell you why. Because I wasn't bogged down with every day, things that don't interest me. Budgets, you know, things that that take my mind away from what I do well, so I think the fact that author and I will partners, author took that burden away from me. So all I have to think about is how to make it a better marketing company, how to do PR, how to sell more product, how to be a better merchant, and I didn't have to worry about hours and government things that they put the burdens on you, you know, writing reports, and I didn't have those things.

David Novak 54:11 

You know, over the years, how did you reinvent Home Depot so that you didn't end up like a Sears? Or some of these other retailers that were wildly successful at one point had the world by the tail, and then they end up dying off? What were the big pivot points that you made? How do you make sure that didn't happen to Home Depot?

Bernie Marcus 54:32 

Well, if you don't learn by watching, then you're pretty stupid. I watched the disintegration of Sears Roebuck. Well, when we started Home Depot, Sears Roebuck was the place that was it. greatest pain supplier in the United States, they sold more paint than anybody else. And you watch what they did. And you watch how they were overcome by bureaucracy where they was strangled by decision making was amazing, you know if you went to them, and years later when I left two guys, and I was like Esquire shoe polish, I ran a company that did that. I tried to sell Sears Roebuck. In order to put shoe polish in this store, they went through seven committees, you know, it was like painful. And one of the things I learned is that bureaucracy kills a company, author and I had a bathroom between the two offices. And we would meet in that little Carter. And we will make a monumental, multi million dollars decision in 20 minutes, we didn't go to committees, we didn't have any of those things. And we learn from the people like Sears Roebuck, that that's what killed them. That's why they could never respond to a local situation. They were so bureaucratic, the people that the top was so isolated from the stores, I don't think they ever went into their stores. Because we would go and Sears Roebuck stores. And they were painful experiences. I mean, they were they were doing so many things that were dumb, and they didn't know about in Chicago, they didn't have a clue of what was happening in their stores. And that's how they died. So we made it a point that we're going to be in the stores, we're going to know our business. And we learn from their stupidity, on how not to do it. And many companies have disappeared off the face of the earth, like ANP ANP, was another company in the grocery business that disappeared many, many years ago, for the same reason. And Sam Walton had a lot to do with that, because Sam hated bureaucracy as much as I did. And we would sit and talk about bureaucracy. And Sam would say, the bureaucrats are like cockroaches, they come out at night, when the lights are off, you turn the light on, and there are plenty of cockroaches you just feed have to keep a light on him all the time. And third him out, get rid of them. And so even today, every company, and I'm sure Home Depot as bureaucracy, but every company has it. And if you just got to be aware of it, and bureaucracy hinders success. I think that the guys that run home depot today, understand that. And the other thing is thinking in terms of what tomorrow is going to be like, you can't just live in today, you have to think about where you want to be. And whenever I meet with Home Depot people, I always say to them, where do you want to be five years from now? What are you going to look like? What are the stores gonna look like? What kind of servers are you going to have five years from now? And sure enough, they do think about it. And they are now thinking in terms of five years and 10 years out and making the right kind of investments. You know, I

David Novak 58:05 

want to shift gears for a minute and take you way back. I'm almost positive that you are the first gang member that I've ever interviewed. We kill the hell out of it. Tell me about that part of your childhood, Bertie.

Bernie Marcus 58:20 

Well, you know, of course, I was a kid alone. 12 years old. I live in a black neighborhood. And it was easier for you got destroyed. And I fought back. And I fought back. The leader of the gang was a guy who beat the crap out of me every day, every day. And I would come back for more. Until one day he said to me, You know what, you join the gang. And he actually did put me in a gang and they actually saved my life a couple of times. I literally saved my life. But I don't tell the story. I'll give you a great story. When I was with two guys. We bought a store in the middle of Atlanta, downtown Atlanta. And on opening day, I was going up the escalator with the chairman of the board the president and coming down was this guy who saw me and yelled at Bernie Bernie, you know, over and it was one of my gang members, the leader of the gang back and I went up the chairman turned to me. He said, what was that? What was that? And I said, that was Sunday. I just let me take care of it. I went up and I went down. I met him at the bottom. He was wearing your raincoat. It was in June. And I said he said what are you doing here? I said I'm I'm a vice president here marketing. And he said you work in here I said yeah, he says we Robin his plane flies are you here we'll call them off right away. And he did he closed the ball at the store.

David Novak 1:00:00 

It came back to you in spades. That's unbelievable. Your parents were Russian immigrants, and you grew up very poor. In what way did those early childhood struggles really help you become the kind of leader you are today?

Bernie Marcus 1:00:15 

Well, the first thing I knew is I never want to be in a situation where you go hungry, or I couldn't provide for my family. And my thoughts were always to be able to be independent financially. And that was what drove me never to be in a situation that my parents were in, my father barely made a living. And if it wasn't for my brothers breaking their backs, and working, when they were weren't in university, but working and breaking their asses, bringing money home, we wouldn't have eaten in the house, I just didn't ever want to be in that kind of situation. And I never wanted my family to be in that situation. So my key was always to be independent. And you know, I didn't any people, I'd have a made money, I wanted to know how they made money. And so my thing when I would see a guy with a big house with a big porch, how to handle this guy make his money. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend my life meeting with people who were successful, and learning from them how they did it, and trying to inculcate it into my own life, wherever I could. And they shared how they did it with me. And it became a part of who I am,

David Novak 1:01:36 

you know, Bernie, it became a part of who you are, and you've had enormous success. And one of the things that you're a big believer in is giving back and you talk about the concept of entrepreneurial philanthropy. And the fact that you really view philanthropy as a business. Why are you so passionate about that concept? Well,

Bernie Marcus 1:01:59 

because number one, I think about all the great things have happened because of Home Depot. And I say Home Depot, because of the money that Home Depot allowed me to give away. The Marcus Autism Center 40 years ago, we started that center, when people didn't know what autism was. And I stayed involved with it for about 20 some odd years, and put millions of dollars into it. And today, the markets Autism Center is the biggest in the world. I also started Autism Speaks for the same reason, because people didn't know what autism was. And I started Autism Speaks. Because I wanted people to understand that one out of 58 kids at that time was one out of 58 kids. Today, it's one of the 38 children are autistic, it may know there was a year black or white, or yellow, or rich or poor. It's one of the 38 kids. So I think at that time, if I hadn't stayed involved, that Mark is with him said wouldn't be where we are today. Today, they have a device that will be on the market shortly it's been approved by the FDA already, where they can determine that a child is autistic, at the age of three months, think about that. At the age of three months, if you start treating that child, you could change the way that child was going to what his life is going to be like, instead of his life, you know, being this way, you can make it that way. You're not going to cure it, but you can make it life a better life. But it was the fact that we got involved with it, that we stayed with it that we didn't walk away and and we just write a check.

David Novak 1:03:51 

Is that what you mean by treating it as a business that you're involved in whatever you invest in, just like you would a business and stay passionate about it. You know, your mom, as I understand, it always encouraged you to give back. And I gotta tell you, she'd be so proud of you, Bernie, I mean, you and Billy, you guys have given over $2 billion away just through your own foundation. And tell us about the giving pledge and why you join.

Bernie Marcus 1:04:16 

Well, when they call me for the giving pledge. I had already committed to giving 90% of what we earn, why before we leave this earth 90% is going to go into a foundation, which will be given away. My kids are taking care of my kids who could never have my life. They're not going to have the houses I have unless they earn it themselves. Of course we did enough so that they're never going to starve to death. But I'm not leaving it to my children. They don't deserve it. They didn't they really didn't make it happen. And I want them to do it for themselves. So if they become successful or my grandchildren become successful, is because I gave them a leg up on And then he earned it by themselves. But the truth is that 90% is better than 50%. And when they came out with the earnings pledge course I joined,

David Novak 1:05:13 

why not join? You're already way ahead.

Bernie Marcus 1:05:18 

Warren Buffett called me to do it. And I said, Sure, Warren, I said, you're going to end up giving all your money away anyway, which of course, he's doing. Because he had so much more to give away. And it's not that easy to give the money away. The way we do it, at least we follow in. And we see that we get a return on invested capital, because we watch the results. Warren is not that interested in charity. But he knows that he's got to, he has to give it either give it our or let the government take it.

David Novak 1:05:55 

You know, you created a company where one of your former employees said, anyone can be anything. How do you look at investing in your people and tell me a story how you put that core value into action?

Bernie Marcus 1:06:09 

Oh, listen, we have so many people that have proven you give him the rod. They catch the fish. We have one young lady who started with as 18. She was a Jamaican Harbin spoke English, but great talent, tremendous talent. And I spotted her Florida. Years and years ago, she was a cashier, and she was never rented at her desk, she was always out selling product to the customer. If they would come through, and they bought paint, and they didn't buy brushes, she would go back and get the brushes and leave the cashier. And that's how I discovered people waiting in line and there was no cashier. And finally I said, just put her on the damn floor and let us sell well today. She runs all of our stores. Wow. What do you 700 stores 500,000. associates, she runs it. You gave you can't tell me of a better area of success than that.

David Novak 1:07:15 

I can't I can't tell you anything better than that. And I understand when you had your team meetings, you tell your team members at the end of the meetings that you loved him. Now that's not common in most work environments. Why did you do it?

Bernie Marcus 1:07:30 

Because I love him. I love him. I walk into a store. I want to hug everybody. Because think about the life I live. I could have anything I want. I could do anything I want to do. It never gonna happen without Home Depot, you have to have an emotional feeling for the people that allow that to happen that continue. The Home Depot continues to be a great company earns great numbers. Every year, the sales are phenomenal profits are phenomenal. returns on invested capital for number. I love the people that run it. I just love him. You know,

David Novak 1:08:06 

Frank Lake had you back at the store manager meeting when he became CEO. And they love you to the Ovation just went on and on and on. People were cheering for you and everything that you you really represent. So you gotta gotta love to be loved back. You obviously are that and this has been so much fun. Bernie, you know talking to you about the business and the way you think. And I want to have a little bit more fun if you don't mind by doing a lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this? Yeah, sure. Okay. What's one word others would use to describe you? opinionated? If you could be one person for a day besides yourself? Who would it be? And why?

Bernie Marcus 1:08:49 

George Shultz, if we had a George Shultz now, today, it would be the best thing for this country.

David Novak 1:08:56 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Bernie Marcus 1:08:58 

Stupidity.

David Novak 1:08:59 

What was the last home improvement project you took on?

Bernie Marcus 1:09:03 

Oh my god, don't don't even talk about her. And I never and I admitted it in the book. And I stayed stupid all my life. I wanted to

David Novak 1:09:17 

I can join that stupid club with you. What's the number of fistfights you think you've been in?

Bernie Marcus 1:09:23 

Well, up until the time I was 20. It was a lot.

David Novak 1:09:29 

What's the word or phrase that comes to mind when you think about the growth of the Home Depot?

Bernie Marcus 1:09:35 

Unbelievable.

David Novak 1:09:36 

What would I hear if I turned on the radio in your car?

Bernie Marcus 1:09:40 

Talk Shows.

David Novak 1:09:41 

What's something about you that few people would know.

Bernie Marcus 1:09:45 

I think that my evolve with philanthropy. I think a lot of people don't know how involved on it and how extensive it is that it involves medical and free enterprise and educational Olden Jewish issues, people just don't know how much of a ballboy.

David Novak 1:10:04 

That's the end of the lightning round there, Bernie, just a few more questions, and I'll let you go. You've been so gracious with your time. You've been married to your wife, Billy for almost 50 years. And I hear there's a particular strategy that you have in your marriage that's helped you sell more bathtubs at Home Depot. Tell us about it. And the underlying lesson that there is for us

Bernie Marcus 1:10:28 

never go to bed angry, ever. In 50 years, we never went to bed angry. And that saved our marriage, and made our marriage a good marriage. And I have to tell you, it continues today. We still love each other dearly, after 50 years. And it's because we don't go to bed angry. The key was taking a bath together, being naked in the bathtub, where you're defenseless. And anything that was in our minds would come out. And when we left that bathtub, everything was out on the table.

David Novak 1:11:09 

That's fantastic. And you sold a lot more bathtubs at Home Depot, right?

Bernie Marcus 1:11:13 

Oh my god. We told that story, to the wives of the husbands and at Home Depot. The next day, there was a run on bathtub.

David Novak 1:11:25 

You know, you're such a great storyteller. You always seem to have a great lesson at the end. You know, what was your process for disseminating these stories and lessons to your team over the years?

Bernie Marcus 1:11:36 

You know, people don't want to be lectured to people who would rather hear a story. And so the great storyteller was Ronald Reagan. So I remember one time, Ronald Reagan asked George Shultz to write his Fourth of July speech. And George put his whole mind into it, wrote a speech and gave it to the President. And Ronald Reagan looked at it and kept circling it at the side who says story? Story. Story. In other words, if you want to make a point, tell a story. People understand stories. They don't like to be lectured to.

David Novak 1:12:19 

Absolutely. And what's the single most important bit of advice you'd give to aspiring leaders?

Bernie Marcus 1:12:26 

Passion, you have to have passion for what you do. You can't be dispassionate. I mean, if you don't have the passion, and you don't have the emotion for it, it's not going to be successful.

David Novak 1:12:39 

Well, Bernie, I have to tell you, I was looking forward to this conversation. And I knew it would be amazing. And it has been, you're, you're an incredible leader.

Bernie Marcus 1:12:49 

Thank you. And David, you keep doing what you're doing. Because CEOs need a lot of work today. They need a lot of help. And maybe your books and your lectures, we'll change some of the directions. Oh,

David Novak 1:13:05 

thank you, my friend, and keep up the great work yourself.

Well, there you have it, our most bleep worthy episode ever. But you know what, you can't put a filter on Bernie, Marcus. And who would want to he's got so much wisdom from a career that truly changed the retail game. But you know, from the very beginning, the Home Depot succeeded because they were willing to do what was good for the customer. That's how Bernie made decisions. And it wasn't something he talked about. It was something that he did, taking calls from customers directly, walking the floor and talking to customers and assisting them and helping them find the merchandise that they were looking for. This is a guy who did all kinds of things all the time to make sure he set the example for making customers happy. To him, it was all about cultivating that relationship with customers by putting them first. And you know what, you can make a huge shift in your business when you start asking what's best for your customer. Think about this, how often do you truly get to see your customers using your product or service? Are there policies you need to change so that they're more in line with what's best for customers? Or hey, you might need to do more for employees. So they're motivated to serve customers. Take action on these big questions this week, and I know that you're going to find some real breakthroughs. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders do what's great for their customers. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Dr. Holly Anderson, one of the world's most renowned cardiologist and the creator and driver of the hands only movement for CPR.

Speaker 1 1:14:53 

You gotta love what you're doing. If you're passionate about a message, you find a way to make it work. And we're all busy. See, but if you're busy doing things you don't like, then you're busy and unhappy. But if you find things that are important, and these things are important to me, then you find ways to get them done. And you find people who are also willing to help you get these done.

David Novak 1:15:13 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be