David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guests is Steve Holmes, the non executive chairman of Wyndham worldwide and Wyndham destinations. When I think about Steve's career, the word that comes to mind for me is consistency. With Steve, you know what you're going to get, he has a set of core values that he brings to any role. He's lived by them, and every company he's ever worked at, whether he's crunching numbers and finances the CFO or growing Windham as his chief executive officer, Steve reminds me, the truly great leaders I know, aren't just great for a while or in one place are only in good times. They consistently deliver excellence no matter what circumstances they're in, and they do it in a way that's consistent with the values they have. Now, if you want to bring that same consistency to your leadership, keep listening. Steve will show you how to be more consistent by defining your core values and then living them out. So here's my conversation with my good friend Han soon to be yours, Steve Holmes

the business environment is extremely tough right now. You know, we've got inflation, we got a recession looming. You know, what are you doing for fun these days?

Steve Holmes 1:41 

Well, fun fun for me is getting away and doing things with my family. I've got now I'm up to seven grandkids. Last time I talked to you, I think I had one. So they keep me busy and keep me running. And then my passion is, you know, is golf and I don't play it well, but I play it as often as I can. So that's something else I do to relax and get away from it all. But you you can't get away from the fact that I believe we probably are already in a recession. We just haven't counted it all up yet. The good news is that it seems to be one that has a shorter duration to it, and that there's a lot of momentum still going with the economy.

David Novak 2:17 

Now, I hope you're right about that. You know, as CEO, Steve, you're one of the leaders I admire most, you lead the right way. And you built Wyndham into the largest hotel franchising company in the world. 9000 hotels, 95 countries, you built the travel business, I mean, unbelievable what you did yet, in 2017, you made this strategic decision to spin off your your hotel and your timeshare business into two separate independent companies. What was the moment when you said to yourself, you know, we need to do this.

Steve Holmes 2:50 

I don't know if there was a lightning moment where that happened. I think it was a building frustration over the fact that our shareholders weren't given the value that they should receive. For the companies they owned, we were kind of being viewed as a conglomerate that if we broke it apart, we'd be able to get greater value in the pieces. And that all worked until the pandemic hit and in the market turned sideways on it, we were building good momentum. But that was really the reason. And the other thing that was the driving force was I'm a big believer in building bench strength and building new leaders in the organization. And I had two great leaders of Wyndham hotels resort, and what became Travel and Leisure the second company. And so I felt confident that they were in a position to be able to really take the companies to the next level.

David Novak 3:39 

You know, you had a very successful spin off the stock was moving then you have the COVID. But you've got two businesses that can stand on their own. You know, I was part of a spin off at PepsiCo when PepsiCo decided to spin off pizza at Taco Bell and KFC and ultimately what became yum brands. What do you see, Steve is the biggest leadership challenge in executing a successful spin off,

Steve Holmes 4:01 

probably the biggest challenge and in the spin off is the same as the biggest challenge and a lot of difficult situations. And that is communication. You have to keep your communication going with your team with your all your stakeholders, your shareholders, your board, everybody's got to know what's going on. If you don't, then a black hole creates uncertainty and certainly creates poor performance. I'm proud to say that since we did the spin off of both companies, the companies have outperformed how they were doing before. And even with a pandemic. They've done extraordinarily well. They're not getting the love that the market should show them. But I think as time will tell, their performance will show how strong the companies are and how great these management teams are.

David Novak 4:45 

As Steve, you became non executive chairman of both companies, I don't know many people who've been chairman of two major companies describe what that's like.

Steve Holmes 4:55 

Well, first of all, it's non executive chairman intentionally I didn't want to be Executive Chairman because I didn't want to be looking over the shoulder of the guys who are running the business now. But really, for me, it's evolved over the last five years since we did the spin off, I was probably more involved right after the spin off than I am now. But I still am involved. I'm always available by phone anytime, any day, night or day, and I stay engaged with the team. That means that if they're looking at something that happens to fall into an area that I have a lot of experience in like m&a, you know, I can help them think through the opportunities, I can help them think through the businesses because I was involved intimately in both of these businesses. So it's really being a sounding board for the management and chairing the board, I've got phenomenal board set both companies, and they are super engaged, and they are challenging, and I love them. So part of it is just making sure that the board's are, are giving everything back to the company that they can and give all the help to the CEOs that they can,

David Novak 6:03 

you know, you're not executive chairman of both these companies. And so you gave up the CEO seat when you did that. What was the most difficult thing, Steve about that transition for you personally,

Steve Holmes 6:15 

and honestly, there wasn't a lot difficult about it. People told me, before I stepped out of the chair that you just you're not going to like this, it's going to, you're going to feel like you don't have enough to do you're not engaged enough. I had done enough preparation in advance that really, I didn't miss a beat. I've enjoyed myself, I've enjoyed being an advisor more than an executor. Honestly, David, you and I are about the same vintage, I would have had a hard time managing a company through zoom. And that's what these guys had to do. They had to manage their company for two years, without meeting the people that they're hiring and that they're working with. I'm a people person, I would have had a really hard time doing that. They did a phenomenal job. So I felt blessed that I wasn't having to carry that water during that difficult time.

David Novak 7:00 

Is there anything about being CEO that you miss, though?

Steve Holmes 7:04 

Not really. I mean, I missed my assistant for a long time. That was that was something that I really missed that I replaced her and I'm okay now. But it's little things that maybe made life easier before. But now I have more freedom to get involved in philanthropic things. And I just, I felt relieved to be not the CEO anymore. So no, I'm not one of those that regrets walking away from the day to day that I was involved with. That's a tough grind. And it requires a lot of attention. You never are off. I feel like I'm always there for my team. But I'm not the one who's on all the time. Now.

David Novak 7:39 

You mentioned the word grind, which is interesting, because you've described yourself to be as a grinder, you know, tell us a story that would give our listeners a glimpse at that part of your personality and your leadership.

Steve Holmes 7:52 

Well, I've you've been a grinder as a compliment. So some people think it's kind of you don't want to be a grinder. But But I think it's a compliment because it means that you focus on what your objective is. And you just keep working away at it. And I knew coming out of school, I didn't have an MBA, all the guys I've hired have Harvard MBAs and they're all incredibly well educated me, I'm just a guy with a bachelor's degree. And I always felt like I had to work harder than the people around me because I figured, hey, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the world. But I'm gonna outwork everybody else. So I've always been a grinder. And and I think by being a grinder, you learn a lot, you learn a lot about yourself, you learn intimate facts about the companies you're involved with. When we were doing acquisitions, we were doing a lot of m&a. I was the guy who went out and met the management teams got into their businesses. When I got done, I knew more about their businesses than the CEO did. Because I was a grinder I grounded to it. And I hired a lot of grinders around me, who helped me do that as well. So I don't think I think being a grinder is a wonderful attribute to have.

David Novak 8:57 

I agree with you. And I understand when you were running. Amos, you had a theme line that basically kind of characterizes who you are. Remember that theme line?

Steve Holmes 9:10 

We're number two, we try harder.

David Novak 9:13 

You know, that underdog mentality that's really served you well?

Steve Holmes 9:17 

Well, I didn't come up with that line. To be honest, that was somebody else's brilliant line. And I was only at Avis for a short period. But that period was an absolute blast because I got to learn something about a business I knew very little about and God to then bring on people who really knew how to drive their business forward. So I you know, it just is life is all about learning. And I'm a lifelong learner. I love getting into things that I don't know much about and then becoming proficient at them. I still haven't become proficient at golf, even though I do a lot of studying and a lot of analysis. But I have a great time. As you know, we've had a great time out on the golf course. So yeah, I think that the fact is, if you're not a lifelong learner Are you losing a lot of life? Because you're losing the opportunity to learn more about things that you don't know about right now? And so yes, I believe that's an attribute I have, that I'm very proud of.

David Novak 10:12 

I want to shift gears a bit and take you way back. What's a story from your childhood that shaped the kind of leader that you are today,

Steve Holmes 10:19 

I'm going to go way back this, I'm going to go back to my father, my father was a, as with most people, they're a central figure in your life. But he was a very focused individual, whether it was doing his work that he did at General Motors, or being involved in the church that we were at. He was an engaged and focused leader. And I saw that and I respected that. And he used to have a saying that he said all the time, which is set your priorities, and he is to say to me set your priorities Well, I'm a kid mowing lawns trying to make a few bucks. How do you set your priorities as a kid mow a lawn? Well, your priority is make sure you have enough gas in the morning. So when you push that lawnmower, down the road to Sir mowing people's lawns, you got what you need to do the job. And so setting your priorities is important no matter what you do. And so that is probably from my youth, that is probably the thing that had the largest influence on me,

David Novak 11:17 

you know, you came up as an accountant, and then you become a CFO, and you eventually get to CEO, what skills did you have to develop to go from being an accountant, so called number cruncher to running a worldwide enterprise like Wyndham,

Steve Holmes 11:32 

it's all about leadership, as you know better than most, you can be a leader in an accounting organization. And if you're the person that people are looking up to, you have to let people know what you believe in. And when I had a chance to do that, as CEO, it was just taking what I had done before, and putting it into a much larger scale. What I learned early on was, there are core values in your life, you have to respect people, you have to I won't go through all the core values, but you have to, you have to have those values. And then you apply them to wherever you are. And in this case, I became the CEO of an organization. And I went around and I explained to people, these are my values. And this is how we're going to run the business, there was not a huge change in the way I managed going from one to the other. It's just being consistent, communicating well, and letting people know what you stand for, because they're looking to you to know how they should make their decisions. And you want to lead by example, what's the

David Novak 12:30 

most significant, let's call the soft skill, Steve, that you had to develop as a leader? If you could, I'd love to hear a story behind this, if one really stands out.

Steve Holmes 12:40 

A soft skill would be being a good listener, I think that's important. You can't just and I see this all too often. And I've critiqued and coached people on this a lot. You may know the question that's coming next, but I can't answer it till you deliver the question. Because you don't know where the final end of that question is gonna go. I always wait for you to finish before I jump in and give an answer. And I think people tend to not be good listeners so that they don't really hear the question that's being asked. And if I'm an investor, and I'm sitting in a room with a group of people, and this happened multiple times when I was meeting with investors, and somebody in my organization who was there with me, whether it's a CFO and investor relations person, they tried to jump in and give an answer. They weren't answering the question that the person asked. And that's not a criticism on them. They were just trying to be helpful because they thought they knew where the question was going. But unless you're a good listener, and you listen to what people are saying, you can never be sure that you're answering the question that they're interested in.

David Novak 13:48 

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So you you come up with the organization and you grow as a financial expert starting out in accounting. And a lot of times you're stereotyped in that field as just being a numbers person. What advice can you give to leaders who come up with that financial background so that they really broaden themselves enough to where they can take on more responsibility in a general manager sense.

Steve Holmes 14:59 

Well, I'll go back To The Lion King, be prepared. I think that was one of the songs of Lion King, when my grandkids listen to it, I hear it's ringing in my head right now, I think you need to be prepared to be a leader. And that means that you need to have your interpersonal skills honed, you have to be ready when that opportunity presents itself, you don't know when you're gonna get that chance to step up and be an operator, if that's what you want to be or to be a CEO. If you have that in you, if that's something that you want to do, you need to be prepared to take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself. And it may not be a fully thought through opportunity, and may not be somebody coming to us saying, Hey, David, I'd like for you to manage this business. For me. It may be somebody coming to you and asking. So what do you think about that business? Is there something we could be doing better for that business? Well, they're testing you. They're trying to determine, do you have the thought process to be able to possibly manage that business? So as a financial person, you always have to have a handle on your numbers. And that goes without saying, but understand more about the businesses that you're involved with. So that when somebody comes in ask you a question about, what can we do better for that business? You can answer it and that may open the door for you to become more of a leader in that business on the operation side, as the CEO, whatever it might be.

David Novak 16:19 

When did you get that breakthrough to become an operator? Steve?

Steve Holmes 16:23 

It came when I was when I was at a company called HFS that we started. I was the CFO there. And we did more acquisitions. You mentioned the Avis transaction. We bought Avis, we bought century 21. We bought Coldwell Banker, we got a lot of different industries. And I was the CFO. So I was basically doing the m&a and managing the financial side of all those acquisitions. Well, we got towards the I think it was the Avis acquisition. And my mentor and CEO at the time, Henry Silverman came to me and said, Steve, financial people are a dime a dozen, but you can do a lot more than that. So I want you to go run this business for me. So he plucked me out of the financial role and put me in charge of all of the hospitality and travel related businesses. And that was my first chance. So it wasn't like I came up and became the CEO of a small business that we were running. He kind of plopped me in front of all of them. But that was okay. Because I had been involved in the m&a the acquisition of all those businesses. I knew them all intimately. So it was very easy for me to say, Yeah, I know what RCI does I know what the timeshare business? I know what Avis does. I'm okay with taking management of those businesses. So that's when it happened. It happened. I wasn't, I didn't have my hand up saying, hey, Henry, I want to do this. I was very happy. Being a CFO, is very challenging role. But it was even more of a challenge to take on something that I had never done before, which was being the CEO of a public company.

David Novak 17:51 

Well, Henry knew that you were more than a CFO. And what was it that he saw on you, that distinguished you in the sense that he did think you could be more than a CFO and you could run a huge business?

Steve Holmes 18:03 

Well, I asked him that? Of course I did. Because I'm saying, Henry, why are you doing this? I'm a young kid, what are you doing, put me in charge of this? And he said, Steve, there's a couple of attributes you have, which I really appreciate. One is I can trust you. Secondly, I liked the way you think, you know, he was a lawyer by training and never really worked much as lawyer worked for a firm for a while. But he always thought that thought process was more important than educational credentials. So how do you think as a person? Do you think the same way I think Will you come to the same answer that I come to working through something? It's not critical that you come to the same answer, but do you think through it the same way? I would think through it, I think Henry found that. I always thought through the same way that he did, I sometimes came up with different answers. And sometimes he liked him. Sometimes he did. And he was the boss. So he got to decide which was the right answer. But we always kind of worked through the process the same way, knowing the numbers, where's the cash flow? What's driving the business? Who's driving the business? Is the right person driving the business? Those are questions that I always ask myself that Henry always asked himself,

David Novak 19:12 

you know, that's interesting, you know, because those are great traits to have. But knowing you as I do, you're an incredible people person, I would have thought he said, Look, you're so good with people and you know, but he really went after the thought process and how you how you think, but people that work with you, they'll go through walls for you, you know, it's incredible, you know, how do you show up as a leader to get that kind of buy in royalty and trust?

Steve Holmes 19:38 

Well, I think you do it with honesty, and you do it with good communication. And I appreciate you saying that I did have I have had great teams in my life that have followed me. I always thought I just got lucky but maybe it's because I was a pretty good leader. And I think that Henry was Henry was not a people person. And I'm a massive introvert to David, you just don't know that I hide it well at times So I love

David Novak 20:00 

all these extroverts, they call themselves introverts. extrovert, I'm gonna sell it somewhere else, Steve,

Steve Holmes 20:08 

I really think that being honest with people, and respecting everyone is so important to building that kind of culture of people feeling comfortable that they can do what they need to do to be successful, because you're going to support them, you're going to empower them. And so it's that trust and honesty, and I never treated anybody different than I would want to be treated by them. And that goes down to the mailroom guy to the IT guy who's hooking up a printer in my office, I always treated people with respect. And I think that, that others see you do that. And they then they start emulating that, and it feels good. It really feels good to lead that way to lead with respect and with with trust and with confidence and with good communication.

David Novak 20:53 

You know, you're very confident person was always easy for you to really get comfortable in your decision making process. And when you look back, was there ever a time where you you had to wrestle with that? Or is that just something you just naturally gravitated to?

Steve Holmes 21:09 

Well, we went through a horrific fraud problem at HFS when we merged with a company called CUC to create senden, and I was running a group of businesses at the time, and it was a massive fraud. I think a couple of guys are still in jail who were on the other side of the transaction. We didn't do anything wrong, but they did a lot of things wrong. The fraud was on the financial side. I'm a former CFL, I'm a CPA, that to me cuts to my core. So I did start questioning, do I have the right chops to get our business through this, when it kind of the problem was in my core competency? And the fact was, I was never exposed to it, I couldn't have uncovered it I, you know, it was not something I could have ever done anything about. But that did shake me a little bit to think, holy. How did this happen? This a financial fraud, and I'm a financial person, it can happen on my watch. Well, it wasn't my watch. It wasn't our watch. It was the watch of the of the people that we merged with. But that didn't shake me for a while. And I think it's interesting, you say I have the confidence for it. Because I don't know that I'm the most confident person in the world. But when I'm doing the right thing, and I understand what I'm doing, and I have an objective, I think I am confident because I know the right things to do to get to the right answer. But there have been times like that incident with the bad fraudulent merger that did make me question myself.

David Novak 22:35 

You built this incredible empire in a hotel business, and you made a ton acquisitions, how many acquisitions that you

Steve Holmes 22:40 

had in your career? 75?

David Novak 22:44 

And how many hotel chains did you acquire? I think 16 And you put all of these different hotels, you know, a Wyndham Cainta, et cetera, you know, all these different hotels that you bought, you put them all under one umbrella, and made him one company? And these are all companies and brands that could have viewed themselves as competitors. Yeah, how'd you do that?

Steve Holmes 23:05 

They do consider themselves competitors at a street corner. There could be and we own all these brands. There could be a days in a Ramada, a Wyndham, and a Super Eight, all in the same street corner. And they're all competing for the traveler who's staying in town that night. So how do we get them to feel that they're, they're part of a family that they're not just competitors, we build infrastructure to support them. And part of that infrastructure is a great loyalty program. The Wyndham rewards program is recognized as the number one loyalty program in the industry by travellers and provides great, great support for the hotels that are in our network. So yes, each hotel has its own personality. And when we merged these business together, there were times when the leadership, the franchise leadership for those of a particular brand, would say, well, we don't want to have anything to do with those other brands. You know, we're days and we don't have anything, what anything do is Super Eight. But the fact is, they can benefit by being part of a larger organization. And they have and they've done very well during difficult times. But it takes a lot of work to talk them through to make sure they understand and then prove to them by delivering results, that they can get better results by being part of something that's a cohesive group than they can by being an individual out there on your own or all with just a brand that is that is unilateral brand versus a brand that's part of something bigger. So it all all worked overtime.

David Novak 24:36 

So you got people to work together and your rewards program was one of the key ways you did it. So if you stated the days in that would get you points the stated alakina that would get you points so it brought everybody together and you made that a competitive advantage. You know, I could never do that. And I wanted to with pizza at Taco Bell and KFC which is basically franchise driven. They viewed each other as like competitors. We bought things together and we'll ever start scales in some ways, but it was tough to share your customer that's really challenging. I mean, tell us how you really got people to understand that this really wouldn't be a benefit.

Steve Holmes 25:12 

Well, it's kind of a before and after, you know, you know how you're doing before you join a larger group than you know how you're doing after you join the group, you can see the relative benefit of that engagement, because it's all about building a, a cohesive platform that allows people to get a benefit for what they're doing. I mean, people didn't think that a Wyndham which is days in Super a Ramada Howard Johnson, a lot of economy midscale brands could compete with a Marriott or Hilton that have all these upscale brands that are much larger and business travel that might appreciate loyalty programs more. Well, if that's the case. Why are we constantly rated by USA Today is the most popular loyalty program. It's because our program delivers for the consumer, Joe consumer driving down the street, when he pulls into a daze in and he flashes Windham reward card, he's gonna get points that will then let him go on a vacation into a Wyndham grand property in Orlando, and take his family down there and stay in this gorgeous property with swimming pools and lazy rivers, because He's stayed at Super eights and days isn't enough to earn points to be able to go on that big trip. It's all in the vision you build, and on the delivery of your platform. So I think if people bought a bunch of Taco Bell tacos, and pizza and pizza, and they could earn some sort of points and your your profit margin, your point, your cost differential, it's different. So it would have to be built differently. But you could build something that people would gladly carry around in their pocket, that yum brands card, and you know what they get when they when they get to go to the Kentucky Derby.

David Novak 26:56 

And that's good. You know, the other thing, Steve is You're an incredible believer in people, everyone counts, no matter what level added you really focus on the frontline employees so that they would really feel valued, and give give the customer the experience that they should be getting,

Steve Holmes 27:12 

I didn't have to think about it a whole lot, David, because it's kind of how I'm wired. I'm wired to believe that everybody has value, everybody should be respected. And all you have to do is spend some time in one of your businesses, and you did a lot of this. And you see who impacts the experience of the consumer. When you're in a, when you're at a Taco Bell, you know that that person taking the order, and delivering the food is the most important person to that customer at that moment in time. It's not somebody who's running the marketing program, but who's running the business. It's that person right at that counter. And it's the same thing in a hotel. I mean, whenever I go visit hotels, I always ask for a tour. And then after that, I let the I let the General Manager Go away. And then I go behind the front desk and walk behind. If they've seen you walk in with the GM, they'll let you do it. They won't let somebody walk in off the street. But then I get to go in the back and I get to see what's really going on. And you can tell a lot by go into the back office and see how people, how do they maintain their desks? What did things look like if you can get back into the mechanical room? Yeah, how well kept is it so you could learn a lot. And when people see you do that they know what matters to you. And they know you care. And so I think that that has a lot to do with how you connect and interact with the people around you. And the people who are at whatever level they may be. You know, I care if somebody's happy, who's cleaning the floor, as well as the person who's running the hotel. You know, they both need to be happy. They both need to be respected.

David Novak 28:49 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Steve Holmes just a moment. You know, Steve is walking proof that when you do the right thing, the right things happen. It reminds me of a conversation I had with RJ Bonga when he was the CEO of MasterCard. For him, it's not enough to have a high IQ or a high EQ. Leaders also need decency to treat others with fairness and support and respect. RJ calls it the decency question. And it has a surprising impact on your bottom line.

Ajay Banga 29:21 

What's really important is that you bring your innate human decency, their sense of fairness, your sense of a level playing field, to the party, and you tell people who work for you. You know what, my hand is always going to be on your back and never in your face. And that doesn't mean that I won't give you strong feedback when you deserve it. But you will know where I'm coming from. And you will know I will be fair and transparent. Not just nice to you. But it's a way of behaving in a way of conducting yourself with your people with the values for your company, with your behavior in society with everything you do.

David Novak 29:59 

If you Want to unlock the power of decency in your organization? Go back and listen to my conversation with RJ episode seven here on how leaders lead.

You know, one of the things I know you're known for, is the incredible job you did leading the count on me service culture, talk about how that came about and how you made it come alive as a leader.

Steve Holmes 30:29 

It's a story of theft and intrigue. Because I stole that name from one of the guys who works in Australia, who was running our timeshare business at the time. He told us about this count on me thing. And the great thing that he said about count on me was, he described what it means to be respectful, to be responsive, and to deliver a great experience. Three things that I embrace that I believe in wholeheartedly, and there's some memorable, they just roll off your tongue. So it's not some complicated methodology for creating a culture. It's something that's embedded in us. And it's easy to remember. So the count on Beasts culture was really built around that philosophy that Barry had down in Australia, that I that I unceremoniously ripped out of his hands and said, I love this, I'm going to use it. And then I went to our head of HR, and I said, Okay, Mary, we're going to make this the culture for our company. And it didn't take me more, I didn't even get that full sentence out before she was running with it hard, because she was a believer. And then we got the other senior leaders to buy into it. And pretty soon we're wearing count on the pins, we're giving our academy awards, and everybody's buying into it, you've done this so many times, David's so successful, you know what it is, when you feel it engaged, and you feel the organization latch onto it, you then say, Yeah, this is gonna work, this is gonna work. And that's the way it felt. And so when I went to Shanghai, and I see count on me, signs up in Shanghai, I'm saying, Wow, this thing really is working. Everybody, everybody's bought into it. So that's the story by and count on me, which I stole, and I feel badly about it. But you got to take what you see, that's good.

David Novak 32:16 

And it'll make you feel that badly about it. Because it's such a great idea. And it was so much fun to go into Shanghai and see it there and go to Malaysia and see it there. You know, I think as a CEO, seeing things get cascaded that are powerful happen all around the world. That's really amazing. And I understand that you're a big time cheerleader, and you would often lead parades. Tell me how that got started.

Steve Holmes 32:42 

We were presenting Konami awards at employee meetings. So you get, you know, 600 people in a meeting, we'd have somebody come up on the stage, we can count on me award. And it might be something as simple as something, they put it in their in their cubicle, and maybe an American Express gift certificate. It's something simple. It wasn't these were not elaborate gifts. But I felt like after doing that, for several years, it kind of got stale, like people in the audience were kind of yawning when somebody walked up on the stage. And then I thought, well, what's really important to the person we're bringing up on the stage. And I'm thinking it's really being recognized by the peers by the people, you work with who around you. So if it's a paralegal who's getting Academy Award, they care about what the people in the legal department think. And the same thing for the talents and the marketing people of HR people, whoever they might be. So I said, let's create this as something that brings the award to the person. So I got our HR people, and we got a bunch of helium balloons, and we got our certificate. And we got some kazoos and some noisemakers, and we'd marched down the hall, making a racket to find the person in their cubicle, who's getting the award. And we had a little coordination in advance. So we knew that their supervisor would be there in the person who should give them their award was going to be there. And we created so much noise that that people started following us. So they were what's, what are they doing where they go, and then we'd marched into somebody's cubicle, we talked about what the person did, what they what they did to deserve the karamea reward. And then we would celebrate them, and we'd get right in their face, and we'd celebrate them and give them their balloons and thank them and, and it was just wonderful. And the organization just loved it.

David Novak 34:31 

Well, you know, so many leaders phone in recognition, you know, they just saw who got here it is or whatever, you know, but that's an experience that you created for these people that were being recognized that they'll never ever forget. I don't

Steve Holmes 34:43 

think so. I think they'll remember it and they value it. And they put that count on mute certificate in their cubicle. And they would point to people and say, do you know when I got that, and so yes, you're right. They did remember.

David Novak 34:56 

You know, the other thing that I know you're just a huge believer In his growth, you say, I remember you telling me this a company that doesn't grow, it has no value. How did you constantly keep raising the bar at your company because you saw growth, I know for 12 years well over a decade of growth year after year, where you hit your, your numbers, every quarter, you build trust with investors, how did you make that happen with your team,

Steve Holmes 35:23 

I don't know that you can make it happen, what you can do is you can encourage it. And if you're running a business, and you're encouraged to grow that business, that that, well, we want to see his growth, we don't want to see just a steady top line, we want to see growth. And I think it starts with the growth of the people. So you invest in your people, we do a lot of work in leadership training, so that we get people who are really prepared and ready to lead. And then you tell them what you want to accomplish, we want to get growth. And so I used to stand up in front of the franchise sales organization who would sell hotel franchises for our hotel group. And I would say what do I want for Christmas rooms, rooms, rooms, rooms, because that's what they're focused on. And that became their Montra, they wanted to deliver more rooms for me. And so they'd go out and give more room. So you get people to buy into it. And then they're the ones who do it, you can't force it, they've got to believe that there's the opportunity there that the market is right for them, and that they can jump on it and create growth. And when you distill it down to the level of the doers, that's when things happen. Because they're the ones who will find the way to make it happen. We just made a change in one of our organizations, and we put a guy in charge of a part of the business. I've known this guy for 15 years, and he is going to be an exceptional leader. Why? Because he cares about people. And he's going to drive the business for further growth. So it's about the people. And it's about giving them the the authority and the directive that we want growth.

David Novak 37:00 

You know, you're so much into giving your people opportunity and creating opportunities and possibilities for others. And you're a big believer and in education, do you have a story where that mindset really paid off and just still touches your heart?

Steve Holmes 37:14 

Well, there's so many of them, David, I don't know where to start. But let me let me give you the one that pops into my mind. Because it's a fairly recent development, we created an enhanced version of an internship program, where we have interns come in from some grade schools, who are between their sophomore in junior junior and senior year, and they intern with us. And when my daughter did an internship, she made copies that a copy machine. So I would see her and I'd be going oh my god, what a waste. What a waste. So when when I had a chance to influence it, I became the CEO, we built an internship program that is top notch, a you are engaged in the business when you're an intern. And so you get a chance to actually work on real life problems, takes a little more work for the people at the company to create that opportunity. But when you do that, you see the bright, bright light shine in kids eyes. And I shouldn't say kids, because these are young adults, but their kids, and you see them light up. And from that you pick out who do you want to have in your organization going forward. And I just recently was talking to somebody who promoted a person the way he described her was, well, you remember her, she was in turn back in 2008. That intern came in, she was a bright light, we gave her the opportunity. She's still there, she's grown, she got another promotion, she continues to have an impact on the organization. I love that. I just absolutely love that. Because that means that you're providing opportunities for people, and they're grasping the opportunities and doing something with it.

David Novak 38:52 

You know, Steve has been so much fun, and I want to have some more with a lightning round of questions. So are you ready for this big guy?

Steve Holmes 38:59 

Oh my god, I gotta put my thinking cap on now.

David Novak 39:02 

All right. What are three words others would use to describe you?

Steve Holmes 39:06 

thoughtful, caring, and engaged.

David Novak 39:10 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Steve Holmes 39:14 

Bobby long? Our friend who does more for people than anybody anybody knows. So he's just one of those impactful people.

David Novak 39:24 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Steve Holmes 39:26 

indifference. Yeah, if somebody's indifferent, they just don't engage. That's that's a problem for me.

David Novak 39:31 

What's your favorite travel destination?

Steve Holmes 39:34 

My next one.

David Novak 39:36 

at your peak? How many nights a year were you staying in one of your hotels?

Steve Holmes 39:41 

150 Nights.

David Novak 39:43 

What's one thing about travel? You'd love the most new experiences? If I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear?

Steve Holmes 39:53 

Is a highway or Howard Stern.

David Novak 39:57 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Steve Holmes 40:00 

But I'm an introvert. But I really am David, I know you don't believe the time by myself.

David Novak 40:07 

Oh, that's the end of the lightning round there. And one of the things has come through loud and clear, is you're just a passionate guy you are engaged in as you think about your career, and what's ahead. What's your unfinished business,

Steve Holmes 40:21 

positively impacting more people? You know, I think that I've had the opportunity as a leader to impact a lot of people. And I do through our philanthropy, I think impact a lot of people. But I think I can impact a lot more people. And I just need to devote the time to it, I need to follow your example, you've dug in deep on a number of charities that you've been involved with, some of which you've introduced me to, and I probably haven't been as engaged as I should have been. And there are several that I'm trying to work with now. And I probably need to this may be the wake up call to get more engaged.

David Novak 40:55 

What's one piece of advice you give to aspiring leaders,

Steve Holmes 40:59 

be authentic us before white people follow me. And I think they view me as an authentic leader, I am what I am, I'm in the boardroom, the same as I am when I'm walking down the hall. So be authentic. Don't try to be something that you think you should be to be a leader, learn who you are as a leader, and then be authentic. And that authenticity will drive people to believe you and to follow you and to want to be part of your team.

David Novak 41:25 

That's great advice, Steve. And I want you to know how much I really appreciate our friendship, how much I appreciate you taking the time to do this conversation. And I also want you to know that you are the most extroverted introvert I've ever met in my life. Thanks for being on the show.

Steve Holmes 41:44 

Thank you very much, always a pleasure.

David Novak 41:55 

Well, even in this conversation, you can hear it, can't you, Steve's core values come through loud and clear. Throughout his career, he has always tried to show respect to team members at every level, to communicate openly, to invest in the growth of up and coming leaders and to truly engage and think deeply about his company. And, boy, that consistency really matters when you're a leader. See, it's hard to trust a leader who's erratic and inconsistent. But when you live and lead by a consistent set of values, people are drawn to that. That kind of clarity and stability builds trust, and it gets your team firing on all cylinders. With that in mind, let me offer you a bit of coaching for your week ahead. Have you ever sat down and defined a clear set of core values for yourself as a leader? What characteristics do you want to consistently display? Believe me, even if you're not in a leadership role, yet, now's the time to start defining those core values for yourself and living by them. Because I guarantee it, people are watching you, and this is a huge way for you to take that next big step. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders are consistent with core values. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Lindsey chap Gima, co founder and CEO of casted.

Lindsay Tjepkema 1 43:19 

As humans, we are hardwired for connection right to basic human need. And for businesses that makes it a basic business need. If we can connect on a human level, the brands that do so and do so successfully are more likely to thrive. And that's why podcasts are so strong as an entertainment format and also as a content marketing channel.

David Novak 43:37 

So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be