David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Let me ask you have you felt stuck not knowing how to prioritize areas of your business, it's hard to figure out what's worth focusing on, and what isn't. And hey, let's face it, it's tempting to chase every shiny new opportunity that comes along. But when you listen to today's episode, you will see some pretty incredible things can happen in your business when you understand the power of focus. My guest today is Jim Weber, the CEO of Brooks running, when he took over 20 years ago, they were trying to compete in every athletic category. And they were losing four or 5 million bucks a year doing it. Jim said, Hey, let's focus on one category. And that category is going to be running. And let's master it. At first, the business shrink. But the next year, the strategy was working. Now they've crossed over the $1 billion milestone in revenue. And they've gotten an extremely loyal customer base of runners, including my daughter, Ashley, who ran a half marathon and Brooks, it all started with the power of focusing on a single type of customer. If you want to learn how it happened, and how to use the power of focus in your business, we'll keep on listening. Here's my conversation with my good friend hence soon to be yours, Jim Weber.

First of all, you and I have a great friend in common Warren Buffett. You know, I used to go see Warren Buffett every fall for nearly 20 years when I was running yum brands. And you now work for him because your company is part of Berkshire Hathaway, and he wrote a glowing forward about you and your new book running with purpose. And I want to start by just asking you what's it like to work with Warren Buffett?

Jim Weber 2:10 

Oh, gosh, David, I feel like the luckiest person in the world. And I often describe myself as having the best job in the business world because we're building a brand etc. But having Berkshire Hathaway as an owner, I have found is just an amazing platform to build a brand. So Warren, I told him when we first met that he'd been mentoring me from afar for some 20 plus years, because I had been reading everything he ever wrote. But he's so that's great. Roll up sleeves, let's go. He loves business, David, as you know, he's like a kid in a candy store. He just absorbs everything about your business. And it tends not to leave his brain. But he's just such a great human being his sense of situational awareness, self awareness, really understanding, you know, people is just stunningly effective. So I'm a lucky guy, it's fine.

David Novak 3:01 

Tell us the story of how you two hooked up to begin with.

Jim Weber 3:04 

We've had an interesting journey at Brooks since I've been here we've had four owners. And the third one was Fruit of the Loom, which was a Berkshire Hathaway company. So we were buried a couple levels down from Warren and he absorbs everything from every business on a weekly monthly report. So every now and then we'd get a note saying great work, good results, et cetera, et cetera, keep it up. But we started to sell shoes at the annual meeting. And I sent him a note and gave him a report. So that's fabulous. We're going to sell more next year. People love Brooks, if you're ever in Omaha come out and we'll have a steak. And so we did David and I just knew he was gonna love Brooks because we had been building this brand uniquely with a moat, competing against giants in our industries, with great returns and good margins in the light. So he did and six months later, I was on holiday with my family over Christmas in New Year's David. And I was checking my emails every day. This is when it voicemail didn't link into your phone. But I didn't check my voicemail. I got back to my office. I always like to start the year prepared. So I'm at my desk at 7am in the red light and my phone is blinking. And sure enough, I pick it up and said Jim, this is Warren. I've got an idea. Give me a call. David. It was five days old. And I just left a voicemail from Warren Buffett in my my own mailbox for five days. And so I rang him right away. He answered the phone and said, Jim, we got an idea for loans going to focus on a parallel build that out, you know, you guys are a little bit different. You're doing well. We're gonna spin you out and set you up as a standalone subsidiary of Berkshire. And David I just said, Warren, I think that's a great idea. And uhnwi Wang, he's just been so helpful around strategic issues in the like to keep us focus mostly on our customer. That's what he oriented back to.

David Novak 4:53 

You've been CEO for quite a while and you know, tell us what it was like when you took over Brooks 20 years ago. And what Brooks Just like today talk about the transformation.

Jim Weber 5:02 

Early in my career, I ended up running smaller businesses that were all turning around and brand repositioning. And Brooks was the fourth one that I would run. And I came in private equity owned, very leveraged 30 $40 million of debt. Only 65 million revenue was losing four to 5 million a year. And it lost money for about five years. And it wasn't a 90 year old athletic footwear and apparel brand that was kind of everything to everybody almost mirroring what the big brands were doing, you know, court shoes running, every category, every price point, good, better, best broad distribution. The problem is we were sixth or seventh or eighth at everything. We didn't lead anywhere. And so, you know, we just decided to burn the boats and focus on one category running, and never looked back, we put everything into that category made the products better focused our distribution on it focused our whole team on it. And 20 years later, you know, we shrunk the business in 2001, from about 65 million to a core performance running business. So maybe 45 million. Last year, we finished it 1,130,000,000. And right now we're kind of growing at a 20 30% clip, which is really fun. So you know, we'll hit over 1,000,000,003, you know, supply chain impacted business this year, we probably could have hit 1,000,000,005. If we could have made it all

David Novak 6:26 

$40 million 2,000,000,003 could have been 1,000,000,005 will be probably too before you know it. Congratulations. That's fantastic. But you know, as I understand it, Jim, when you became CEO of Brooks, you were like the fourth CEO and the past two years, it was sort of like the graveyard for CEOs. What gave you the confidence that you could fare better than your predecessors?

Jim Weber 6:50 

First, I came in off the board, David, which was helpful, because, you know, I'd been there at a board level for a year or two. In fact, one of my good friends had run the business profitably in the 90s, Helen Rocky, but had gone through successive CEOs, and now had private equity owner too much leverage and the like. So I had understood what leverage and private equity look like I'd had experience with that. I bought businesses sold businesses, and I started my career actually, as a commercial banker. So I knew there was financial engineering and a turnaround sense that had to happen. But I also love product. I love brands, you know, if you get into the consumer products world, it just becomes part of your blood and, and I was runner, and so we had to shoes, and I say two and a half shoes, that the market light and the half issue was the adrenaline GTs, we had to perfect that product and get it right. So their frequent runner would be confident around it, and we gained trust. So we had to solve so many things, David in that early going, but we identified them all. And I remember my first board meeting, we had reset the plan. You know, in May, we had a board meeting I said there's like 12 things we have to do in order to know Jim, pick three or four, you can't get 12 done, I said you don't understand we actually have to do all these things. And that execution focus on critical success factors, David was so key. That year, we hit our plan for the first time in four years, everybody made a bonus, we made a half a million dollar profit, we generated almost 10 million in cash flow. And most importantly, we set our product lineup for 2002. The adrenaline GTS really saved the company, that shoe became one of the best sellers in the industry. Today. It's a 5 million pair shoe and a leading shoe for runners in our industry. So in those early days, though, the task at hand was to gain trust from everybody that matter, I had to gain trust from our banks, or investors or board or employees or leadership, or retailers. Obviously runners are factory partners. That's the job right? You really have to get everybody around that turnaround plan in the early going. And yeah, the employees I'm told had a pool on how long I would last David, because they'd heard it all before I was forced on two years. And you know, I knew that progress and results, were going to gain trust over time. And that's what we had to deliver.

David Novak 9:09 

It's interesting to say that you had 12 things you do you had to do. And the board said, oh, you can't do 12. But sometimes you have to do 12. So you can do the three and get to the one, you know what gave you the courage of conviction at that point to say, Hey, guys, I love how you said no, we got to do all

Jim Weber 9:25 

because I think I knew you know, we had done our homework, roll up your sleeves. Right, David, we've done the work on which products had margin in them and which didn't, which customers we were losing money on and why, you know, where we could free up inventory to generate cash, you know, the critical factor of great products and telling really strong stories around them first to our partners and retailers and distributors, and then translating those stories in front of the customer in the runner I'd had experienced and all of that. Here's one of the things I also understood that the process there were two two cycles in the business there was a development cycle and product. And then there was delivery cycle and go to market, which was very inventory focused because in apparel and footwear, you never have the right amount too much this death too little as a problem. So I had learned that in seasonal sporting goods at O'Brien watersports and sim snowboards where, if you're late, you don't miss a week or a month or a season, you missed the year. And so I brought in that discipline, and I just knew all the things we needed to do around the brand. And those two cycles. You know,

David Novak 10:35 

it's always great when you can persevere those lonely moments, darker moments, and you really get through a tough time. I love your advertising or your marketing line, which is run happy, you know, tell us about the happiest day you've had a Brooks.

Jim Weber 10:48 

One of the things I believe David, and I think you're in this camp too, is that you have to celebrate the journey. You have to celebrate milestones of success, and recognize great work and great outcomes from people along the way. Because finish lines, you know, are great, we all have goals, we all want to hit key goals and milestones. But in a way, they're fleeting, so you have to enjoy the journey. But we've had great milestones, you know, hitting a billion last year was our B hag this big, hairy, audacious vision goal that we put in place 10 years ago. And it was an outcome of a performance running Strategy and Performance product strategy attached to this runhappy brand, which is really about celebrating your run. Not you know, the winners of the marathons run, but you're run whatever level you're at. We thought that positioning was a big idea, a billion dollar idea. So achieving that billion dollar goal was super rewarding, because it really reflects the trust of customers. You know, we had probably about 15 million unique customers last year. And earning their trust is just so gratifying. The coolest thing about the consumer products, businesses is creative puzzle to create a product that they pay full price for love it and tell their friends about it. I just think that puzzle in business is just one of the most rewarding things when you solve it. So last year is achievement was a great milestone for our brand.

David Novak 12:12 

I want to ask Warren, what do you look for when when he buys companies and he said he looks for leaders who are like artists, they're painting this picture. They're an absolutely in love with it, but it's not finished yet. You know, what would you see as your unfinished business?

Jim Weber 12:28 

Oh, gosh, I can so relate to that, David, because I think as I've come through the years, you get to know yourself as you grow older. And I've come to know that I really, really want to be part of building something, and in this case, a brand. And secondly, I want to do as part of a team, I just love the team dynamic that business allows. And so we're painting this painting of a leading performance brand, right in the middle of the sport of running, which no one else is doing. We compete against big athletic platforms, outdoor brands, fitness brands, and there's so many great brands, there's so many great products, but we're creating this really unique performance lifestyle brand in the middle of the biggest sport, and category and all sporting goods. And I just think it's a blast. And so, you know, that's the painting, we're painting. And we've been doing it I've been doing it now for over 20 years. And it will continue to be painted long after I'm gone, David. And that's why I love this job. I always wanted to be part of creating a brand. And the opportunity to create a great one that's sustainable and also great business.

David Novak 13:36 

It's interesting that you started out, you know, with a financial background and became a consumer markets guru, which very rarely happens that requires, you know, you've got a great left brain and right brain. So I want you to use your right brain for a little bit and tell us how you use it. Tell us how you came up with runhappy

Jim Weber 13:54 

Oh, gosh, I don't take credit for it, David. But I saw it at the beginning. It was created by our marketing agency, probably about a year or two before I got there. And it really was about branding the glass half full culture of Brooks and the people that were there and celebrating every runners run. And so when I came in, we added you know, a real focus on performance product to that, because that's really requirements a piece of equipment for runners, especially frequent runners, especially at a half marathon or a marathon level. That's what we wanted to build in. So when we added performance product to this runhappy brand that celebrates your run, whether it's your first 5k or 20th marathon, that was a unique positioning for us and it is our culture, you know, we're we're a glass half full culture and we're inclusive in the sense that if you've just started or if running is your sport and your dream is to be in the Olympics, we're going to celebrate each and every one so yeah, I think that you know, we had to add to it, I think to be competitive, but it's a really unique position.

David Novak 14:58 

I think the run happy really sticks with you because my daughter, she or her first pair of running shoes when she ran her half marathon was a Brooks pair of running shoes. And she still remembers it to this day. And he talks about how great the product is. But she said, You know, I really felt happy when I ran that marathon. And you know, you guys really tapped it with that run happy when you're running and you enjoy it. It's a great feeling, isn't it?

Jim Weber 15:21 

You know, it is David. And here's the truth, though probably, over 40% of people actually don't enjoy the act of running. But they just need how it makes them feel afterwards. And so run happy is about the afterglow of a great run to, even if it's not fun while you're out there, but it makes your day better every day can move, you can be active, you can get a run, and you're going to have a better day.

David Novak 15:49 

Now, I'm sure you'd agree you can't get better as a leader without a plan to help you develop. It's why send out a weekly leadership plan. This weekly plan gives you practical steps you can take to develop leadership skills that will help you grow. Each week focuses on a different leadership topic, topics like culture control, innovation, and handling conflict. Now you might know a lot about these things. But how often are you taking time to actually get better at them. This free weekly leadership plan will help you do just that. It will improve your leadership skills and give you simple ways to navigate any leadership challenge you'll face. Sign up for the plan today at how leaders lead.com/plan. You know, I want to keep digging into how you lead, Jim, because you are one of the best leaders in the world. And but I want to take you back for a minute. You know, tell us a story from your childhood that impacted the kind of leader you are today.

Jim Weber 16:49 

You know, one of the reasons I wrote the book and it started with a memoir on just my own personal life from my first memory, I think I got to age 31. And this 80 pages that I wrote was just to unpack my hardwiring. And I think you know, coming out of my family, I wish there was a glass half full side of positive energy and a glass half empty side of struggle and bitterness and alcoholism and, and just not being healthy day to day. So I woke up first, at a young age, maybe fourth grade and that attitude is a choice. And I wanted to be glass half full as well. I wanted to be good at something, you know, I wanted to be happy. I wanted to put my focus into something and get really good at it. It first I picked hockey sports were so foundational for me, in my head, I'm still a hockey player. And I bring that into my business mode persistence and, and never give up and just you know, hustling, hustling, hustling. But I loved hockey, I just loved it. And when I quit playing competitively, I started run. So that was part of it. But then you know, I was just inspired by a teacher in seventh grade to write a paper on careers. And one of the careers I wrote that if I couldn't play hockey was really the one I focused on, was running a company someday. And I can't even quite explain why. That was what I chose David, but since seventh grade, I've wanted to be in leadership, I was present my class I was present my fraternity, I just pursued leadership opportunities at every turn. And I came out you know, I only got two real offers coming out of the University of Minnesota undergrad, there were both of the banks. I learned so much there about seeing through financial statements into consumer behavior. But man, it looks like it's so much fun across the table. I I wasn't you know, we were financing projects and strategies and investments. It just looked like so much more fun to be on the other side of the table and I got there as quick as I could

David Novak 18:47 

you have a history of being an avid runner. Yeah, I used to run I think three to five days a week for you did it for 35 years. You're very committed runner. How much of a factor do you think that is your understanding for running the empathy for runners? How much of a factor has that been in your success? Approx

Jim Weber 19:06 

you know, I think it's been a factor. David, you know, we often say it's not you don't have to be, you know, an avid runner to be at this company. I think an appreciation for the sport and what it is for people is pretty important. But for me, I think it was an advantage. And here's why. When I came into Brooks, I was a runner. I worked I spent time with my family and my hobby was staying fit and running was my jam to do that. Then I got to Brooks and I thought oh my gosh, these people are fast. And I came to the conclusion that I'm not quite a runner. I'm a person who runs but but the truth is I bought I'm a runner and it was it just fed me at every level physical emotional, processed. i Every big question, man. I'd go out for a run and just process those questions. So that really helped me because as we started to identify behaviors and segments and running One of the ones we identify as the sole runner, and that's the person that loves running, they need to run and almost nothing gets in the way of it if they can help it. And that's what defined me. I didn't run for competitive reasons. I didn't run for speed. I ran a lot of half marathons and a few marathons. I ran races, but it was just sort of the means to an end, I would say and in staying fit and getting that meditation time, almost David out there. So yeah, but it certainly helped me understand the customer at Brooks. I love

David Novak 20:31 

how you break down running and the segmentation of runners the soulful runner, you know, I used to run a lot. And you know that time that you have the quiet time, that's when you get a lot of the creativity and ideas. Can you recall the the best idea you ever had on one of those long johns?

Jim Weber 20:49 

Oh my gosh, I processed really big questions on my runs. And we had one leadership off site, we were to write a paper on what leadership is from our point of view, it was 40 of us in this management off site. And I was stumped on it. But I went for a run that morning and it just spilled out. And I I included that essay in my book, I did it from the perspective of a person and employee I want to be led. So that was one. The other one we built a brand new headquarters in Seattle for Brooks in 2013. And 14 was probably the biggest business risk I've ever taken. Because it was it was a bet on growth. We were going to have to grow into this building, deep green building, very unique, living building standard almost in the way it operated. But it's right on a trail. It's looking at downtown's. It was perfect place for a Running Company. But it was a huge bet. And we were looking at a couple options. I actually took a Sunday run six mile run around a local lake here just to process it. And it was clear that we were going to make that bet and it worked out fortunately.

David Novak 21:55 

That's great. And then you got to run around that big headquarters. Yeah.

Jim Weber 22:00 

We've now filled it now. Corona, David. So grateful that one worked out.

David Novak 22:05 

Now I've heard you describe your company as being a challenger brand. Brooks is a challenger brand. What does that phrase mean to you?

Jim Weber 22:13 

You know, I consider myself a student of business, I just love understanding how successful companies and brands navigated, you know, their challenges in their industry to get there, I'm just intrigued by that. And you walk into any given category today, and there's usually a market leader, and in many cases, their platform brands. And in our case, you know, the leading brand in our industry is one of the greatest global brands ever created. I think everybody could could see their logo and state their name, they're based in Oregon, and their platform, they play every category, so well. And almost every range of price points in each category. And so, you know, I've seen other competitors come into our category and essentially line up a strategy to go kind of head to head with them, David. And, you know, for me, I think if you're not the lead brand, the platform in the category, you're a niche brand, you're you know, focus is required, if not in your brand and your choice of customer, which is I think the biggest choice every brand makes who their customer focuses. So all that led me to, you know, where can you win, and it really goes back to my childhood I, you know, I'd rather win at something and dominate it, be known for it, get credit for it, try to create a successful, profitable business behind it, then be eight things to lots of different people. And being all surrounding the category success is so challenging, given how competitive every category is, David, that I think the margins are thin. Every year we sit down on our strategy work, one of our biggest strengths, we think is our focus.

David Novak 23:52 

Absolutely. And I want to thank you, Jim, for codifying your leadership principles and sharing it with the world with running with purpose. I think too many leaders don't do that. And I think it's really special that you took the time to really do that. And I love in your book that you laid them out, and you just covered one, the fact that you really got the focus to be a niche brand. The other thing is, is you really think it's important to make money, really understand making money and knowing what your business model is, you know, talk a little bit about that because you know, it sounds obvious, but it's a it's kind of a fundamental that a lot a lot of people miss out on

Jim Weber 24:28 

in traditional consumer products and especially sporting goods. I just saw too many people work incredibly hard and product innovation incredibly hard on an enthusiast brand positioning and getting customers into their moat, but never solve on making money and those brands don't sustain David they can't play the next inning they can't play the next game the next season because they just end up frankly getting sold usually and you can build you know a product line and a brand had to sort of become part of a bigger platform. But if you're really trying to build an enterprise to last, that includes culture and a brand identity around it, you have to solve for profitability. And that's what we challenge ourselves to do. So in 2001, when I came in, we just looked at our whole product line, and we were not going to invest a penny, and effort, it's it's not so much the money is the effort of the people. I'd seen that movie happen in earlier businesses, both at Pillsbury and Coleman, where you created all this effort to put something in a marketplace, and you get three years down the road. And with all that work, there's no profitability to sustain it. So, you know, that was something I just learned either earlier on, especially again, for a niche company that wants to stand the test of time, I just think you have to solve for that. And certainly, that's what we believe we had to do. And, and I've just, you know, in our industry now, there's great brands, some make great returns and profitability and are growing, some don't. And they're growing for now. But as a question mark of how long it sustains,

David Novak 26:04 

yeah, that solid profitability models got to be in place for you to kind of have the enduring growth that you've had. And, you know, you mentioned Moats. And, you know, Warren Buffett, he talks a lot about boats, the you know, he said you want to have a moat and then you want to have this stream around it, then you keep putting sharks in there and eels and you make it harder and harder to attack you. So the moat thing is really obvious. You brought it up, it's really sunk into you, you know, have a built in a moat around your business and making it hard for people to attack you. What kind of actions have you taken at Brooks to build that moat and make it stronger and stronger each year?

Jim Weber 26:39 

Yeah, David, I, it was a realization for me that came in my second CEO position, I was running O'Brien watersports, and another turn around. And my boss at the time said, Jim, admirable, you've proven you can turn around brands, you're making money well done. But you still haven't proven that you can actually grow a brand. And David, it stopped me because he was right. I didn't learn that business school in a way managing a brand. I didn't learn that at Pillsbury. It's this entrepreneurial sort of sensibility that you have to earn the customer, I'll say it every day, you have to solve for the customer so that at the margin, you don't just hold on to a sale, you actually gain market share. And with that mindset we just challenged ourselves is that our product has to stand out, it has to get the nod when people put the shoe on their foot, you know, when they're in, you know, in their 20th mile on a shoe, they know they're not only going to bite the bite again. And so I think challenging ourselves to really, really solve for that customer, both in terms of their needs, and their unspoken wants and desires. And so that is a constantly evolving puzzle. But the curiosity around that, and a passion to really solve for it, I think is what creates the moat because, you know, Nothing ever stays static. And now I think our motors fit, feel and ride and our products, mile after mile after mile runners No. And they have so many choices, our motors on time delivery to our retailers and complete, we're a customer service company. And if you have the best selling shoe, or the most in demand shoe, it doesn't matter if you can't supply it. So we've always been focused on that. And then this positive engagement on the joy of Ron and the power of Ron and the transformational element of Ron, those are all part of our moat. And now we built culture to support those elements. So, you know, I think the key is that they're relevant to our customer, but also that we're executing them at a level in our industry that's at the top, not a given, we've got to earn that sale. I often say that we built this brand, David a pair of feet at a time. And we had 15 million unique customers last year. So that's just how we think about it. You know,

David Novak 28:57 

you talk about building a culture that supports your vote. And you also talk about culture being your ultimate competitive advantage. What do you do as a leader to champion the kind of culture that you know, is going to keep making that boat stronger and stronger.

Jim Weber 29:14 

In the last five years, the realization came that if we're going to scale to over a billion dollars, and to two and three and 4 billion in the future, we're going to have to scale this culture. And so we literally started creating a plan on how we're gonna scale this culture. And it became very clear that you know, our next levels of leadership, the, you know, the VP level, the director level, the senior manager, manager level, our top 200 people, those people are going to be critical to execute the strategy. And you know, the kind of culture that we want to create inside that we think is essential to execute the strategy and succeed. So, long story short, we have values of course, but we turn those values into identified competencies and behaviors. We did five days of training with all of our People managers, and we're executing really well, as a team. Now we're integrated, we're aligned as about 1200. People running, I describe it as a small global brand. But we're all in the same playbook. And, wow, five years ago, we weren't. And so it's, it's a lot of hard work. And it's it's not an accident has been very deliberate. But that's what scaling our culture has looked like. For us as we've approached a billion and a half dollar company. I think it'll change again as we go down the road. But the work we've done in the last five years I'm really proud of because it's really served as well to navigate all the challenges that we're all facing right now in the business world.

Unknown Speaker 30:44 

We'll be back with the

David Novak 30:44 

rest of my conversation with Jim Weber in just a moment, if you want to listen to another leader, who is absolutely focused and really revitalized his company, listen to my conversation with the former CEO of Honeywell, Dave Cody.

Dave Cote 31:01 

Everybody makes it sound like you choose you pick either to be short term oriented, or long term oriented. And I said, that's wrong. This is inconsistent with how I looked at the world or how I ran Honeywell, which was that success was always about achieving two seemingly conflicting things at the same time. Like, did you want people closest to the action empowered for quick decisions? Or do you? Did you want good control? So nothing bad happens? Did you want good short term results? Or did you want good long term results? The answer in every case was you wanted both. They're not mutually exclusive. They're mutually reinforcing.

David Novak 31:42 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Dave Cody, Episode 20, here on how leaders lead.

It's interesting, a lot of companies talk about values. You know, I think it's great to have values. But that sounds kind of amorphous, you know, values, you know, but when you talk about behaviors, you get really specific. And that's it seems like that's what you've done is you've identified the specific behaviors you want to have in your culture that allow you to win, What process did you go through to get it those behaviors, Jim,

Jim Weber 32:14 

we rolled up our sleeves, I can tell you there were hours and hours and hours of drafts of meetings. And it came from this, it was a singular event, David, we had an employee survey that was really focused on net promoter score, NPs of it wouldn't employee recommend Brooks to a friend to work there, and had been so powerful for measuring affinity for our brand, we thought why not use it for our employees. And we were going through a reset in our industry in 2015. And our NPS scores went down. And it was really frustrating David, because we knew with all the work that we were doing on on behaviors and our culture and our values in action, you know, culture is Values in Action, which is behaviors, we knew our culture was getting stronger, but yet the survey went down. So we stepped back. And we created I think, 35 questions that all pointed to behaviors in the department, on your team, from your leader, that really laddered up to our values and kind of culture, how we wanted to treat each other how we want to work together, make decisions, engage people communicate, transparently, have authentic, you know, connections and relationships with people that would build trust, from a basis of integrity, all those behaviors. And that was powerful, because this is another element that I think was a bit of truth that we became very proud of, in the summer of 2024 months into the COVID lock downs. We had the highest culture scores we've ever had. And we hadn't been in the office, we're doing town halls, and just like everyone else, we could all write books on the COVID lock downs and and how businesses navigated that, by our culture scores were the strongest we've ever had. And so, again, I think that five days of training are people leaders, biggest investment we've ever made in people, but we're getting a great return on it. It's been sticky. And the toolkit is making us all better managers.

David Novak 34:08 

Fantastic. You know, Sam Walton used to say that the more you know, the more you care. How do you go about sharing what you know, with your people? And how broadly Do you communicate your message?

Jim Weber 34:19 

You know, communication is one of those things where I just believe you can never do enough, you know, and you have to use all the channels and pipes at your disposal, and none of them carry all the water. So, almost every presentation that I make to our teams, our employees, our annual meetings, we have a half year meeting, we have global town halls now four times a year, we are having them weekly, during the pandemic, David but every one of those our purpose of inspiring everyone to run their path is front and center. I always lead off with that we do three days of onboarding for new employees. I talk about the history of the brand and the company because that's the way to really understand the culture. If you understand what Brooks is Ben through, and what, how we focus to be successful, you understand a bit of our culture and our hardwiring. So I was on campus, once David with a student, and meeting with different groups on campus at a business school. And he was listening to me with four or five different groups. And he said to me, You know what, you see the same thing over and over and over again. And I laughed, and I said, Yeah, I do. You know, when I introduced myself to the employees, at Brooks in 2001, with this frame of building a performance brand, I said, you're gonna get really tired of me and hearing me about our focus, but that's how you build a brand. So yeah, I repeat and reinforce the core of what we stand for and what we're trying to accomplish at every turn.

David Novak 35:45 

One of the things I do know that you say, and it's one of your mantras is don't beat your competition. When your customer, when did the light bulb go off in your head that this was a critically important way to think,

Jim Weber 35:56 

you know, David, I think all of us that are watching businesses and categories and the competition that goes on, you're you're sitting in the stands watching the game, and it's brand A against brand B, or brand C or brand D, and you look at an industry and you think about, okay, let's size up these companies, who's going to out compete, who who's going to win. And what's missing in that picture is the customer. You know, it's the customer. And I think if you're in the consumer products business, and you're successful, you probably are wired that way. So I think it's so important to know your competition, and how they go to market and what they're all about and how they compete. But the most important reason to do that is because that's a choice that your customer is going to have, and you have to compete with that you have to win the sale with your customer. So in our industry, there's so many people that have come in and gone head to head with the leading brands in the category and you know, Under Armour, I think fell into that trap a little bit great brand, what a story of a fantastic brand and business that was built. But you know, I think they they they got into a little bit of a fixation in focusing on their biggest competitors. In fact, I think they refer to Adidas one says their dumbest competitor. And it made me cringe. Because the real challenge is about the customer. Of course, two years later, Adidas, you know, was really gaining momentum, and they were not. So I just think it's a truth. If you spend too much time looking to your right or to your left, you're gonna miss what's right in front of you, and that's winning the customer.

David Novak 37:28 

You know, speaking to competition, you've had some unusual competition. Tell us about the barefoot running craze and how you managed to navigate your company through that.

Jim Weber 37:37 

You know, there's no shortage of disruptions if you're in business for long enough, David. So in 2009, we had a double hit first, the great recession. And we've all navigated through that. And it was tough and retail, especially in footwear and apparel. So that was challenged. But at the same time, there's a great book out in our sport order run, Chris McDougal, it's really inspiring. It's about trail running and and Ultras, and it featured Scott Jurek, who is one of our athletes, the greatest Ultra runner of the last decade of the 2000s. And it was really inspiring. And then there were two chapters where he threw the industry kind of under the bus that if it wasn't, you know, for cushion shoes, and higher cushioning in the heels like Nike Air, and all the other brands products, if everybody was running barefoot, there'd be no injuries. And it just created this Firestorm conversation of our shoes really good for you. And should we all be running barefoot or on Super minimalist shoes, and it just undermined you know, what was underneath, I would say the entire performance running industry and certainly everything that we knew, and we're building it, Brooks, because we'd always been biomechanically science based in terms of the natural habitual joint motion of a runner. Every stride, you're putting two to two and a half times your body mass into the ground. And so you know, especially on asphalt, it's a repetitive motion. So your mechanics matter. And so where was the shoe, and you know, long story short, there was no clinical research on barefoot running or running with shoes and, and the injury propensity of one versus the other. So huge wake up call for us. And we spent the next four years doing clinical studies with some of the leading researchers in the world. And the outcome of that was everybody's unique David, for some people, you know, running in minimalist footwear is a Savior, and it's healthier and they're more efficient and everything about it is better for them. Others, you know, they don't stay in their natural habitual joint motion when they run and so a bit of support or a support shoe can be absolutely different than them being comfortable and, and being less prone to injury. So, but we didn't know that at the time. It was an earthquake in our industry, and just kind of underneath all of our assumptions created doubt. And so what do you do you have to go to work on it and we invested in Research and I think we found some truths that we share out with the industry. Because there's only one truth about the mechanics of human motion as it relates to running, we're all learning. But anyway, that was a big wake up call for us and created a lot of uncertainty for a period of time in the industry.

David Novak 40:16 

That's very interesting, because it's obvious to me that you, you're a leader, who you deal with so much optimism and energy and hope. But how do you go about depicting the tough reality that a business faces because you could have put your head in the sand on that barefoot running craze,

Jim Weber 40:34 

I'm gonna refer to some advice I got from Warren Buffett, and it's been reinforced by Greg Abel, the vice chairman of Berkshire is we had so committed to focusing on runners and running and where they were going, that we just knew we had to solve for it, we had to focus on the customer and figure out where this was going to go and get smart on it. And so I think, for me, that was the task, you know, it wasn't a question of Game Over, people weren't going to stop running. And that's the beauty of this category that we picked in this customer. But they're going to change, they're going to evolve in you really, really need to understand their needs that was on us. And every brand, I believe David is anchored in trust. And if they're going to trust us, we need to be right about this. And so we got smart on it. And I think that's been so critical for us. Run signature, which is the platform of the science and understanding that came out of that era, is driving all of our product designed today. And it now it always has been but we refreshed it out of that crisis. And we got smarter and stronger because of it. So we're fortunate again, that we're focused on a category that will never go away, I believe, you know, we are it is primal. We're sort of Born to Run and

David Novak 41:50 

somebody wrote a song on that.

Jim Weber 41:53 

Books and everything else. So we were fortunate in the sense that run it, people are not going to stop, right? You know, we just have to figure out, you know, where it's going.

David Novak 42:02 

You know, you've been a consumer goods guy pretty much your entire career. And you're a big believer in earning trust. He talked about trust and loyalty with your customers. Did you have an experience that you'll never forget that really drove that point home to you?

Jim Weber 42:17 

Oh, I got a couple stories there. I'm going to start with a Pillsbury story, David. When I came into Pillsbury, I was a young product manager. And we were always looking at new flavors and new products and new line extensions in the like, I had hungry Jack honey tastes and biscuits, and I was in the Doughboy business. And so every three years at Pillsbury, we'd have a profit Improvement Program. And it'd be a broad based program for everybody to find cost reductions, fine margin, just improve the profitability of the business, which obviously makes sense to do. Here's what happened over three of those subsequent programs over literally a five or six year period, on a product, they had tuned the recipe, tune the recipe, taste tested, head to head head to head, no one could ever taste a difference. But by the time they got through three of those cycles, the product ended up tasting bland. If you compare it to the one, you know, five years earlier, some of the core customers had laughed, because it just wasn't the same. And so that is trust in the product and quality. And boy, do you have to keep your eye on that it Brooks, it's about fit. And we have this crazy process of we update shoes every season to bring in modern materials, and hopefully some innovation, hopefully, some technology and design that that just improves the shoe, you know, year to year. But if you move the fit too much, you lose the core customers that you're trying to bring forward in that shoe. And so that's the trust piece that you have to understand, you know why customers are falling in love with your products and your brands, what they're actually relying on you for. And if you don't understand that, especially as a junior person, like I was where I was just brand new to the business, you can actually make mistakes unknowingly, and lose that trust. So I just think that's foundational. And it's true in every part of the business, but on the brand side, you know, your customers are becoming loyal to you for reasons you really need to understand those.

David Novak 44:18 

You know, when you took over Brooks, as I understand that you had 60 employees around that number, and you used to say that you had the whole business in your head. Now you have 1200 people working with you, how do you lead differently and welcome we learn about how to lead a growing business and scaling it. Yeah.

Jim Weber 44:39 

When I came in running businesses, I thought, You know what the CEO had do, they own strategy, and they had to be right you know, three years down the road. You want it to end up in a place you want it to be so the strategy piece and how to execute against that the game plan, the playbook, all the things that you need to create to execute at a big In this level and a strategy level, I thought that's what the CEO did. And I think a person that you know, of maybe know, well, ROM Sharan, we had rom sure on who's just a fantastic strategist and great author. We had him in a strategy offset, I think, in 2009. And we were beginning to grow and scale. And yet, I still wasn't people focused, I thought everybody was sort of wired like I was and looked at the world like I did. And at that point, I think we're just under 200 million, it was so clear that it was going to be all about people to execute and scale this business, it wasn't going to happen if it were up to me or our key leadership team. So rom said at that offset, we'll never forget, he said, Jim, you've got strategy, you've got vision, you've got a good plan around it. Now you have to spend another day or two. And you got to dive into your people strategy, you got to dive into the organizational structure that you have, and the people do have everything you need to execute that plan. And that was a huge growth moment for me as a leader, because it was sort of a draw, of course, right. And so since that time, people are the center of all of our planning and work because that's where execution comes from. And we have, I think, a great brand, a great vision for it and a strong strategy, but nothing good will happen. Unless we can execute through a lot of great people. And so it was a huge growth moment. For me as a leader.

David Novak 46:27 

You know, I had one of those very similar moments, you know, with ROM, and Larry Bosque, who wrote the book execution, and you really helped our company a lot. You know, this has been so much fun. And I'd like to have a little bit more with some rapid fire questions here. It's my lightning round. Are you ready for this? Jim,

Jim Weber 46:44 

I'll do my best. David

David Novak 46:44 

gave the three words that best describe you,

Jim Weber 46:47 

I think one is prepared. So in any puzzle or conversation or meeting, I'm going to come in prepared, I think people would describe me as authentic. And what that means in this context is that, you know, what you see on the outside is exactly where I am on the inside, I don't have a lot of filters in the sense of holding things back. So often, I'm thinking out loud. And so I think what you see is what you get with me. And I think from a human perspective, that's authentic. And then the third, I would say, is not one word, but I'm on a mission. A Life is short, and to be part of a team and a brand that's going somewhere. Love it. And so we're in the game, and I'm just on a mission, your biggest pet peeve playing in an organization where somebody's hiding the ball, where there's an agenda there that's unspoken and not communicated. And so you're all going forward on a plan, and somebody's hiding the ball. It's just destructive, and it's not going to be successful.

David Novak 47:52 

Something about you that few people would know, well,

Jim Weber 47:55 

this is one that I've exposed more so but I love music, and there's a soundtrack to my life. And I'd love to be a musician and a frontman. I wish David I just love music.

David Novak 48:06 

What's your superpower?

Jim Weber 48:08 

Competitive Strategy is just so fun for me. And I've tried to, you know, get good at it over the years. It's a craft that I think I'm pretty decent at.

David Novak 48:16 

Yeah, I'd say so. And you're your favorite place to run.

Jim Weber 48:20 

Oh, man, lightly falling snow on a 30 degree evening with an inch on the ground. So you can still run in it in Central Park in New York. It's just heavenly.

David Novak 48:32 

And I want to wrap this up with just a couple more questions. And you and I have another thing in common. We both have really had to struggle with cancer and come through that experience. You know, what, what did it teach you? And what advice can you give people who have to persevere through the most difficult challenges like that?

Jim Weber 48:51 

You know, I think it is so personal, David, because here's, in my view, what happens, you know, when I got cancer, and the truthfully, every time a friend or a family member got cancer, I go to the web, and I just tried to understand it and research it and what the treatments are. And they always have that survival rate. And it stops you December 7 of 2017. I was diagnosed, I had esophageal cancer in the survival rate was one in five, in five years, there was a 20% chance that I would be there. Wow, life gets real right. And I think in there comes this firehose of reality on what really matters to you, and how you're living your life and what you want to be doing. And so first family comes in and I just decided right away, looking into the eyes of my wife, my kids and four grandkids, that I was going to do everything I could to be here for them. They did not want to see me go and so I was going to find a plan and fight this thing and put everything I had into it. But then secondly, for me, it just brought to the forefront is how do you want to spend each and every day and for me it was Just clear, I didn't want to spend it in fear. I didn't want to spend it in regret of what I hadn't done or fear of what I had to lose. I just wanted to soak in all the things I enjoyed doing as much as I could every day. And so, you know, again, I think everybody has to process, you know, that kind of news in their own way, but, but I learned a lot in the sense of anchoring in again on what was most important to me. And that's the path that then I went forward with. And so I wanted to, obviously spend time with my family, I wanted to be on this team at Brooks, I still wanted to build the brand, I wanted to be a CEO, in addition to being a Papa and a father and all those things. So you know, that's what I learned, David. And I think that's powerful in the sense that I was doing what I wanted to be doing. But that's it for people, right? If you're in that moment, I think life gets real, and super fast. And you have to make the right choices to do what's most important to you and your life every day.

David Novak 51:00 

What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader?

Jim Weber 51:06 

I think be curious. David, I think that's the core of it. You know, I think curiosity means you've recognized you don't know everything, you're still learning, you're going to actively listen and be in the moment for all the people that are important on your team. And I just think that's it. Being curious means you're humble enough to keep learning.

David Novak 51:26 

Kim, one of the questions I always do, or conclusions I come to, anytime I interview somebody is what I want my daughter to work for that person or what I want to work for that person. And I have to tell you, after this hour I spent with you, I think I would have actually enjoyed working for you. I think you're one hell of a guy. And I thank you very much for taking the time to share your wisdom with our listeners. And, you know, I hope I get to meet you one day in person.

Jim Weber 51:53 

Likewise, David, thank you for having me. I'm a big fan. And it's been fun to chat with you.

David Novak 52:06 

Brooks running is an incredible turnaround story. And boy, Jim is an incredible leader. The bold vision he has is inspiring. But I gotta say, I'm just as amazed at the courage and discipline, he's actually used to execute that vision. It's all too easy to chase shiny, new opportunities. But Jim reminds us just how powerful it is to focus on one thing and be absolute specialists in that area. customers appreciate it. And they're more loyal as a result. This week, assess your own organization's level of focus. Do you have a clearer idea of the customers you want to serve? The areas you want to compete in the areas you don't bring more focus and discipline to your work and see how fast you can outpace your competitors too. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders understand the power of focus. Coming up next on how leaders lead is professional mentalist owes Perlman, whether you're in sales, finance, marketing, or something else entirely, you're going to learn about the power of learning to read people, and how to lead yourself, I

Oz Pearlman 53:18 

always look to see the value you deliver to others. I have a profession where it's very focused on me. And it's like, look at the cool things I can do and look at how I can fool you. And people think, Oh, I'm smarter than you because I can do a trick. Can I always take that out of the equation, and I want to walk into a room and I want to make it all about my customer. And my job is not for you to walk out of that room thinking how great I was. It's to create a memorable moment for you to take with you for your life that I hope you will continue to talk about and tell others about.

David Novak 53:47 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be