David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. There's one Maxim and leadership that I am sure applies to every situation. If you want a high performing company, you need to build a high performing team. And we all want to get the most from our teams. But what did they need from us as leaders in order to succeed? That's the question we need to ask. Fortunately for us, I'm talking with Mark Irwin today. Now, this is a guy who has spent decades building and leading strong teams. He's currently the president and CEO of Bardstown bourbon, so you might want to have a shot of that, where he and his team are doing incredible things to stand out in a really crowded category. And get this, he spent 25 years serving in the army, where he led the super elite Delta Force on countless top secret missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. In fact, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. If you live in America, you're safer today because of the way marker when built and commanded his teams. And as we mark the anniversary of 911, this week, I sure as heck am grateful for that fact, some really incredible things are possible when we as leaders build strong teams. And Mark says that starts by equipping them properly. That can be in the army that can be in the private sector that can be in the public sector. It's anywhere where you have to have people moving forward, aligned to drive great results. If you're ready to see how that's done, keep listening. Because here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours. Mark Irwin.

Marquis spent 25 years in the Army and commanded every level of our nation's most elite special missions unit, Delta Force, you're the captain to the colonel, I just want to start out by thanking you so much for your service.

Mark Erwin 2:21 

I appreciate it. I'm always honored. But I'm humbled when my family's around and people thank me because they're the ones that really should be thanked for what they've put up with.

David Novak 2:30 

And now you've really shift gears. There's no question about that you're the president and CEO of Bardstown bourbon in Bardstown, Kentucky. What's the most fun part of that job mark?

Mark Erwin 2:41 

Getting to go to work every day. You know, I spent all this time in the military 25 years plus, and really was proud of what I was doing. I got out for that in 2010 spent about nine years in the consulting world. And as you know, when you're a consultant, you're not really on the team. I'll tell you a Bardstown I'm truly proud to be back on a team of folks who you can see love. What they do are experts at what they do and proud to come to work every day. So that's probably the biggest thing about it every day is getting to come share it with these people.

David Novak 3:17 

You know, Mark, almost all the bourbon in the world is distilled in Kentucky. You know, what makes Kentucky such an ideal place to distill bourbon?

Mark Erwin 3:25 

It's our America's native spirits. So, you know, you go all the way back to the history. It's the environment. It's the limestone, it's the corn. It's the perfect environment to produce bourbon. And you're exactly right, David about 95% of the world's bourbon is here in Kentucky. And we certainly want to keep it that way. There's a lot of others who are making bourbon but we always say you can make bourbon anywhere in the United States and it's officially bourbon but if you want to sell it you better make it here in Kentucky.

David Novak 3:54 

Now I know your roots are in North Carolina. But as I listen to your accent, I think you've kind of picked up a little bit of Kentucky accent.

Mark Erwin 4:00 

That was the incident part. We were told we were coming to the southeast when we moved out here and I'm closer to Lake Michigan than I ever have been in my life living in Louisville. So you know, we talked the same but the winters are a bit tougher out here than North Carolina.

David Novak 4:15 

It is kind of funny because you know, I live in Louisville myself. And you know, Louisville is really more of the Midwest. It's not the South, but everybody has that deep south thinking of Kentucky. What makes a Bardstown bourbon so unique, and how are you redefining the category? So look,

Mark Erwin 4:31 

we had a founder, gentleman named Pete often he was a serial entrepreneur. He did a lot of different things. This young guy made a bunch of money. And at some point, he invested a couple million bucks in bourbon. He bought $2 million worth just as a commodity and saw it was a great investment. And he did that in Indiana. So he was wondering, why isn't someone doing this in Kentucky and it was his startup. He came in he hired my predecessor. He came in and really revamped the category by making a lot of whiskey for others, he had the gumption to create this state of the art facility. So we're making a lot of bourbon for others, which is revenue that's allowing us to invest to grow our brand. So as a young brand in the whiskey category, you have to either make something else that you can sell as soon as you bring it off to steal, gin or vodka, or you got to keep raising capital at Bardstown with this business model of making whiskey for others. We haven't had to do that once the sales have been sold out max capacity since 2016 25,000 Barrels we started with them went to 50. Now we're making 115,000 barrels a year. The majority of that going to help other brands come to market. While we take the time to grow our brand as we go. We've also created this unique experience here at Bardstown. It started out calling it the Napa vacation of the Bourbon Trail. We're certainly copying what happened in the wine industry. And I think that's happening across Kentucky now may have started there at Bardstown, but you can see it grow and all the different distilleries are trying to focus more on experiences, as more and more people come on the Kentucky Bourbon Trail every year here to Kentucky. So it's a great asset for our state. It's a great asset for bringing people to Kentucky, you know, we've got the Derby, we've got horses, but let's face it bourbons, the revenue for the state.

David Novak 6:23 

You know, the bourbon category itself has just been explosive, and your business is growing leaps and bounds as you just talked about it. What do you think is making bourbon such a hot thing these days,

Mark Erwin 6:35 

younger folks are coming into category. It's not just dad's old drink or my granddad's old drink anymore. It's something uniquely American, it's something that people probably are actually drinking a little bit less. But what they're doing is becoming more educated about what they're drinking in the spirits category. And bourbon is such a unique thing with the mass bales and the recipes that go into it. It's something that people love geeking out on and learning about as they go. There's tons of room for international growth that we haven't even touched yet. So this pattern is going to continue for years to come for sure.

David Novak 7:13 

Mark, I want to go into how you're leading Bardstown bourbon, but I want to take you back and ask you about your army days, because you had a fabulous military career. What made you go into the army in the first place?

Mark Erwin 7:26 

So David, I see these kids today with these plans of what they want to do, I assure you, I had no plan. I went to college to play soccer. As matter of fact, I got a letter of acceptance from white force and the soccer coach got me on. So I grew up on team sports. That's all I thought about never claimed to be a real student, always enough to get my butt sports was my thing. That's what I did. And I was a team sports guy. I don't know if I'd have been very good at individual sports. I kind of saw that coaches leaned on me occasionally. And I could be a leader. And my junior year in college, saw that with a psychology degree, I was either going to have to go to more school, or do something else. So I decided to join ROTC, my junior year, again, didn't have a lot of thought into this. This was let's do this for three years and grow up a little bit and figure out what's next. And what I walked into David was a perfect team sport. That's all it was, for me. It was, you know, as an infantry lieutenant, it's a leadership laboratory. Everything about it is a bit competitive. You're trying to learn as you go, but it truly was the perfect team sport. And instead of the three year mindset, which is what I went into it with, I found that to be a perfect setup for me to make a career out of it.

David Novak 8:42 

Well, you led the most elite fighting machine in the world, the Delta Force, what was it like to have that kind of responsibility and pressure?

Mark Erwin 8:51 

Yeah, it was. It was serious. So you're a second lieutenant, you're a captain in the infantry, you're doing all these things that the military tells you to do. And at some point, again, I wound up in a spot where it wasn't what I thought I signed up for. And somebody told me about Delta Force. I truly didn't know anything about it. I'm 10 years into the army. It was pretty secret back then. And we didn't talk about it a lot. It was another opportunity to try something different. And I tried out, made it through the selection process and 1995 and ended up staying there for the next 15 years. So certainly an amazing experience for me. 10 years into the service, you think you're on your game, you think you know how to do what you do. And all of a sudden you wind up in an organization that you can clearly see as different. Everybody in that organization was used to being the best at everything they did. So immediately you switch to a might not be first but I definitely don't want to be last and anything I'm doing. So you know, it truly was the first high performing organization I've ever been around. And I think first thing is you recognize it, you recognize holy cow, this is something really special And then I think there's a bit of pride that kicks in that you got there. And then a desire to perform. So everything about it from that point on is what can I do to perform to make sure I stay in this organization as long as you can. And that was literally my mindset from the beginning. I always call myself a test case for that organization, because most of them came from our ranger community, or our Special Forces community. And I was from the big Airborne Infantry, the 82nd. So a different path to get there. But I continue to perform and work my way up through the organization. And like a lot of great organizations, they almost always hired from within for their bosses. And I was fortunate enough to be selected to be the boss in oh seven and Oh, 209. So you can imagine that timeframe, what was going on from 2001, forward, there were a lot of time gone, and a lot of time spent overseas. But you're working around some of the best warriors, some of the best people I could ever imagine being around, and just the pride that comes with that, to be able to do that every day. You truly feel privileged. So laden, it was quite interesting. I will tell you the day that I took over in July of 2007, you know, in the military, when bosses switch over like that, the night before the outgoing guys in his office, he's cleaning it out everything off the walls, all I love me photos, and all that stuff is gone. The next morning, you come in to your new office completely bare, and you sit down and you're in charge, right you do a little ceremony. And there you go. He's out I'm in a walk into this empty office opened up the desk drawer of this desk. It's been there forever Delta Force Commander prior to me, and there's a little yellow sticky in there. A friend of mine had taken my family around the organization just to show him you know, what goes on at Delta. And I guess they had walked him in and showed him office. And then there's a yellow sticky in the bottom drawer from my sister saying Go get them broke. So what do you do? You're nervous, but you've been there. You know what you're supposed to be doing? So you get busy.

David Novak 12:09 

Go get a row. I love it, you know. And Mark, you know, I know you well enough to know that you're a humble guy. And I did a podcast with the late great former Army Chief of Staff Ray Odierno, fantastic guy. And when he was asked about you, he said that you were the meanest, toughest guy he'd ever seen. And you could take out an elite unit by yourself. Now, how do you develop those kinds of skills?

Mark Erwin 12:37 

First of all, huge respect for General Odierno, who unfortunately passed away on us first met him in Iraq. In 2003, General Odierno was a two star at the time running literally what used to be Saddam's turf, it was where he grew up. So it was the toughest neighborhood for sure. And he was truly one of the leading warriors we had in Iraq at the time. And we were there to help him out. So that's where our relationship started. And all I can tell you is respected the heck out of him. And I enjoyed working with him throughout the years. But he gave me a little extra credit there for all these great warriors that I was surrounded by.

David Novak 13:16 

I told you, you're humble, you know, now you've gone into battle, knowing that you're gonna get shot out, how did you prepare for those situations? And what learnings can you apply to everyday life?

Mark Erwin 13:27 

David, I've been fortunate through my life with a bunch of different experiences. I was shot at multiple times. But I was never in a position where I thought, oh, my gosh, this is it today, right. And I know there's a lot of warriors out there who have had that exact feeling. So I think there's a difference in that actual events that occur, but more importantly, how you perceive those events and how much risk you're taking on. I've been very fortunate throughout my life where I think a lot of people would see things as very stressful. Maybe they're stressful to me, but I handled in a different way. And it's probably not external. And I just don't feel that stress the same way others might. I'm not saying I love getting shot at. But again, it's a different way of dealing with the most. And bottom line is I knew I had a bunch of studs around me on all sides. Anytime I'd ever been shot at. The one thing you got to remember about our organization, we had the equipment we needed, we had the resources we needed, we had the firepower we needed when we needed it, that's the best organization out there, right one that has trained skilled individuals with the resources that they need, and the freedom to actually operate. That's what makes us successful organization that these individuals have the freedom to operate. And that's that's what I think we faced all the time. So I think we were in a bit of a unique circumstance in places like Iraq, where we were mostly on the offense. We were rarely on the defense and that makes a really big difference. In your outlook of what you're trying to achieve, I think

David Novak 15:08 

we'll be back with the rest of my conversation with marker when in just a moment, as you heard us just talk about Mark and I both knew and admired the late great General Ray Odierno. And I gotta tell you, I absolutely cherish the conversation that Ray and I got to have not too long before he passed away. There's an absolute goldmine of wisdom about what it takes to become a trustworthy leader.

Ray Odierno 15:33 

The way you build trust is through your competence, your commitment on your character, and you need that in any leadership position. But in the military see more important because you're making life and death decisions at times. And so they gotta believe in you. And when they will trust you. If you make a bad decision. They're okay with that, because they know that you're trying to do the right

David Novak 15:53 

thing. Don't miss my entire conversation with the late and great Ray Odierno, Episode 26 here on how leaders lead.

You know, Mark, it's one thing to run a team, it's one thing to have great people, but you have to put process and discipline around things that really matter most. And you know, we have all kinds of things that we do in business, how do you learn from it? How do you go about that,

Mark Erwin 16:23 

we had the toughest after action reviews of any organization I've ever been around. And I think that was critical. And leaders got beat up, bosses got beat on by their subordinates, every level, looking at an event that just took place. And I think that was one of the best pieces about that organization, that it was a requirement to do those. Often, it's easy to not do them. And I think the fact that we did those on a regular basis, nobody got by with either a mistake, it's okay, you do the mistakes. But we got to learn from an old way to do that and talk about them. And I think that level of trust after organization that we could do that, and everybody still get along and have a drink afterwards was a huge strength in that organization that, frankly, is hard to create. In the commercial world, people are a lot more sensitive out here than what I'm used to. So I have to try to make sure temper that a bit, I guess

David Novak 17:22 

I'm really intrigued by this after action review, because this is something that we should be doing in business as well. Every time we launch a program or whatever we want to really learn from it. Take us through the bones of how you really made that happen.

Mark Erwin 17:35 

You'd sit there on a board, and you talk about exactly what happened. That's the first thing. What was the plan? What happened every step of the way? What happened, if there was a mistake throughout it was identified. And then you talk about who could have done something better. And you talk to every aspect of what actually happened on the ground? And look, people call each other on it, right? If you try to sugarcoat it and make it look like, you know, a mistake wasn't a mistake. That's not healthy for anybody. So because it was a procedure and something we did. It wasn't like, you know, people were worried about their job or not being comfortable with their situation and whether or not they were gonna get fired the next day. There were certain like fireable offenses, you know, in Delta, if your weapon went off, when it wasn't planned to go off, you were gone. It's unacceptable, because it's a safety risk that we can't afford to have, right. But other than that, it's all learning. It's what we're supposed to be doing. And even that one's a learner, people left for a year, and then they were allowed to come back if it was not something more egregious than that accident.

David Novak 18:43 

So what really wasn't a special event, because it was a matter of course, to do a business, it bred trust, and people would really open an app. So you could learn from everything.

Mark Erwin 18:51 

Yeah. So I mean, I think the after action reviews were critical, and that every time it was a process, everybody knew it was coming whether you goofed up or not, you knew it was coming. But you went through exactly what was supposed to happen on that operation. And then you walk through exactly what actually happened on that operation with everybody's input. And then you thought about and reported, what we could have done better with each of those circumstances. Because again, the outcome and the goal of these sometimes very tough a ours if you were one of the ones that didn't perform in the way that you were expected. The whole goal was to make the organization better. And that was it. You took on

David Novak 19:33 

the most challenging missions. Can you tell us about a situation where you thought this can't be happening to me and how you handled it?

Mark Erwin 19:41 

July of 2003. If you'll remember back in the day, there was a deck of cards. So we had a deck of cards, Saddam was ace of spades, his sons were two of the other aces. And again, in chemical Ollie was the fourth ace. So deck of cards. That's who we were hunting. That was our job. That's what we were meant to do in Iraq. We had an individual who literally walked off the street and walked into an army base and said that Uday and Qusay Saddam's two sons were staying in his house, that they would go out during the night, come back for daylight and sleep all day and go out again the next night. So luckily, that individual got passed along to the senior Intel folks there where one of my guys was located. And they interviewed the guy, they actually polygraph the guy, and he miserably failed the polygraph. So they didn't tell Bob was at that time, just said, his line, were done more than my sergeant major who was on the ground that day called me and said, for whatever reason, I believe this guy. So we decided to go ahead and pick up we flew from Baghdad, this was up in Mosul, Iraq, we flew to Mosul. We got there about midnight, we got briefed by the Intel folks that he was lying. And they went back to bed. And we plan for the next morning to go around this house and just see what was up. The next morning. The individual was supposed to call us at nine o'clock and say, yes, they're in the house. No call. So everybody's looking at me. And I said, well, let's just go check it out. So we go down to this house, in downtown mozal Is this beautiful neighborhood, big marble houses, very expensive neighborhood. And we surround this house and very abnormal for our type of operations where we almost always went at night, we always made sure we had surprise, because we felt so risky about this, that it was either set up or fake. We got my interpreter out, got him on the bullhorn said, Uday, and Qusay come out of the house, nothing, everything because they come in the house, nothing. So at that point, the man walked out of his house and came up to my guys and said, they're in there. So it's his house. He's telling us this, so I had the guys start shooting grenades up into the house, still no reply. So we started walking towards the house to go in the house. And that's when they started firing at us, didn't know who it was, but we knew they were bad guys at that point. And I've really learned a lot that day, because no one is our first firefight in Iraq. I knew I had a bunch of studs who had their heads on and we're thinking, and we went out in the house normal tactics that we had went up the stairs dog in the lead. And unfortunately, we'd given them time to kind of barricade themselves in. So they had an advantage on the stairwell, we had to get shot in the leg, and we had a dog kill. So we backed off, we know that weren't going anywhere. So we backed off, we took our time, we started having the local force, shoot larger weapons, anti tank missiles into the walls, and actually a general from the local division there. Because we were the visitors, a general from the local division came up who I knew for years, and he said, Mark, how long is this going to take? Because this was kind of the first firefight going on in the neighborhood there. And I said, Sir, when we can see through that building, that's when we're going back in there. And that's what we did. We wound up that day, getting rid of two of the baddest guys in the war two guys that were very bad to their people. And that night down in Baghdad, I'll tell you, I've never been anywhere near the type of celebration we saw that night. As a matter of fact, we went up on the roof to watch and we quickly got off the roof because everybody who owned an AK 47, the multimillion people in Baghdad, were shooting them up in there. So we went down inside and enjoyed on our crazy experience.

David Novak 23:51 

Just another day at the office, you know, speaking of challenging situations, and that was definitely one of them. I understand you broke your neck, and you were paralyzed from the neck down. How'd that happen? And what that experience teach you.

Mark Erwin 24:05 

That was what I call my slowdown and injury. I'm proud to have been an athlete all my life. I was in Africa, I was actually working running a business for private equity firm out of New York. I spent a lot of time in Africa in the Middle East in India, believe it or not, we were doing medical tourism. So I was surrounded by nurses and doctors. And I grew up with a sister who was a very high end gymnast Olympic trials and all and she always had me doing backflips, back handsprings. I did my last back handspring. I slipped a little bit and just wound up dying in my head and paralyzed from the neck down. Again, luckily, the right people there around me did the right things took care of me got me out of there. flew down to Johannesburg to get cut on I'm sitting there. I'm on a gurney I can't move the doctor standing behind me. It's a sad already morning, he's talking about what he's going to do. And I'm in South Africa by myself with a nurse who I knew well. And I asked the doc, I said, Can you move down here? Close To My hip so I can see you? And heading move down? I said, Are you any good at this? I mean, you know, what are you going to do? Right? So he says, Yeah, I've done a couple of 1000. These I did to him yesterday. Okay, I guess that's good enough. Let's go. So, bottom line is exactly what needed to happen. What would have happened in the US happened in Africa, I got the right surgery, got flown back home, thankfully, through a friend of mine, who got me back to the States. And I went back to hospital and University of North Florida Chapel Hill and learn how to walk again. And it was a humbling experience. One that I'll I mean, it's with me for the rest of my life, I've still got some numbness issues. But what I remember most is that a day into it, I was told that my finger moved and my toe moved. So at that point, to me, I knew everything was connected. And at that point on, it was just going to be about hard work. I never sat around and thought I was going to be in a wheelchair. Again, I think it's back to that same mindset that I've been blessed with, of not being too far off on either has or lows must say, and I don't get real excited or get mad or whatever else. But I think I've been balanced. And that's probably one of the things that I coach people on as much as anything if leaders are going way up and down. That's unhealthy for any organization. One of my first bosses in army, his name was General, at the time, Lieutenant Colonel Casey, he wound up becoming our chief of staff at our army and ran the Iraq war for three years, he used to talk about this low burning intensity, and he equated it to a pilot flame in your belly. And you can turn it up when you need to, but you turn it back down. But the key is, you're managing that flame, not external forces managing that flame, if that leader is going high and low, all the time, really unhealthy for an organization. But there's times when you need to crank it up. And so if you're managing it, then that's the right way to lead. So great lesson from him. And certainly that whole experience was a humbling, but good learner. For me, I wound up seeing what it's like to go through rehab, I can't imagine going through that experience, if you haven't really had to work hard physically before, that would not be a fun experience. I can imagine the number of people who have had to do that. But I was certainly one of the fortunate ones to come through it the way that it ended up. And thank goodness, I had a wife who wanted to put up with it, who was willing to feed me and oh, my gosh, all the different things that are so frankly, it's amazing to see your body what it can do and what what it can go through,

David Novak 27:52 

you know, you mentioned you join the army, because you really love being on teams. And this was the ultimate team sport. And you worked with multiple countries, and you commanded an almost 4000 Troop task force with Iraqi Freedom, where you literally became renowned in the army for specializing in team building. What are the keys to team building from your perspective? And can you give us a couple of examples of how you made it happen in the army?

Mark Erwin 28:21 

I think basic leadership is team building, or should be team building, and it's all about the people. And it's about real relationships, right? You can't, you can't fake relationships, you can either build them or you can't. But you got to build those real relationships where people trust both ways, right? I've got to trust that individuals are doing what they say they're going to do. The integrity is there. And they gotta trust the same of me. Even more important is that everyone has a common vision and an understanding of what you're trying to achieve, and that they have individuals who are empowered, and freedom to operate. And then that you actually are able to provide the assets and resources. That's when teams really perform. It's what I've thought about all my life as far as trying to do that with people when I was officially in charge or not. I think what often is the case and David, you know this from your experience, it's not always the person in charge. That's the leader. There's leaders throughout the whole organization. And I think that's one of the things that I've always tried to do is when I come into an organization, one of the first things you want to do is assess who those leaders are, who are the influencers. That's what you got to figure out because that's how you're going to be successful. There's a thing that a lot of people talk about now psychological safety, whatever, to me, it's that comfort, knowing that you can speak up, speak your mind at any level of the organization, and that you're part of that team. I had a great friend. We both had a boss who liked to call us his peers. He was our boss. So it was a little awkward that he was calling us his peer. But this individual All came in and he gave a pitch on the book Good to Great and how you like to fight things out. So we were in a conference room meeting one morning, the whole senior leadership and there, and he was saying something that a lot of us didn't agree with. And my friend gave it told, you want to fight I'll fight to right now. And he stood up, ready to fight. And I'm thinking, he just lost his ability to influence right there. That's exactly what happened. So that team safety of everybody being able to communicate and everybody be able to take criticism was not there under that leader. And it's something like that, that in my mind, you'll learn from every time I think most organizations but especially the army is such a great leadership laboratory because bosses change so regularly. Obviously, in the commercial world, it happens a lot last. But you know, in the first three and a half years of my Army career, I had four different bosses, I was in charge of three different organizations. So you're always getting to morph a little bit and learn from every boss along the way. And I think as long as you're doing that, you can figure out a way to influence a team, which to me is not a bad word. There's some folks who think influence is negative. I'm not talking about psychological operations, I'm talking about really creating relationships, so you can influence throughout the organization up and down. Because what's not an effective organization is a boss sitting there telling everybody what to do, that will never be an effective organization.

David Novak 31:24 

Absolutely. You know, looking back, Mark, you were obviously a key player in the war on global terror. Can you tell us about what you think was your biggest leadership challenge in that role,

Mark Erwin 31:35 

we had to morph our organization, we had to change so much, you know, we were an organization that was created to to do hostage rescue. And hostage rescue is very specific, you're gathering intelligence, then you're going in, you're executing an operation, and then you're coming back home and debrief. And that was it one thing at a time, we had to change an organization that was doing 24 hour operations around the world, that was quite a challenge for us throughout the organization, not only structurally, manpower wise, but even in our thinking, because we were so used to doing one thing at a time, we had to change the whole organization, we had to change things that supported our organizations that were all created to kind of support this one time, go out, do it come home thing and get everybody on board, that this was going to be a long fight, it was going to be a continuous fight. And that we were going to have to keep giving. So that took a lot. I think one of the keys, For if any success is credited towards me, it's having the right number two by your side. And this is something that I think is critically important for any leader, I don't care what level of organization is, but you better have that trusted agent that can help you influence the others in the organization. Because again, it can't be the boss telling people what to do. And then the army, that's a pretty easy one, you know, I had a senior enlisted Command Sergeant Major, who was right there by my side every step of the way. And he could go influence in a bit different way than I could, right, he was able to get people at a different level and talk in a different way than I might have been able to. So that's something frankly, that I look for it in civilian life as well, because I think it's equally as important that you have somebody that is your right hand person that you fully trust to help you influence the organization. And maybe it's a couple of people. But I think more than not, it's often that one truly trusted person.

David Novak 33:36 

This conversation will air as we remember 911 How much safer are we today, Mark? And what do you see is our country's greatest risk today.

Mark Erwin 33:46 

So I've been focused on the Bourbon world more than national security lately, but it's something that's in May, you know, 911 was a game changer for all of us. And we never even imagined that something like that could happen. So I think we're a heck of a lot safer. Just because of all the things we've put in place, nobody's been able to get any kind of impact at the level. That Alcon back on 911. So I do believe we're in a safer place. Of course, that has cost us a lot in our kids or people in our national debt. But I think we are in a safer place. I will tell you that lately. I am much more concerned over where we are internationally. I think I'm not being political here. I think George Bush was my hero. I'm sorry. That's who I felt with that too. I was fighting for. And I believed in the fact that he was making the best decisions he could make whether they were the best or not. But I think we've had a period of leadership didn't stand us up in the best way internationally. We've been confusing over the last few administrations. And I think that's a dangerous place for us to be As America has never been confusing about what our stances around the world and lately we have been, and that's open doors for others to take advantage of, of seeing the things that China has done all around Africa, gaining terrain in places that are critical to international security. So I think John is definitely a huge threat for us. I like to tell people in this stirs people up, we are the best country in the world, we have great neighbors around us, and we ought to take care of them and ourselves here at home a lot more. And that's where I would love for us to focus.

David Novak 35:35 

I believe every great leader must have a plan to get better. In fact, I think it's so important that I actually send out a weekly leadership plan. Each week, the plan focuses on a different leadership topic and gives you actionable steps you can take to develop that skill on a practical level. Think about it, like a leadership development program only. It's simple, no fluff, practical skills that will help you lead your team to success. You can get free access at how leaders lead.com/plan That's how leaders lead.com/plan.

Ray Odierno 36:19 

Getting back

David Novak 36:19 

to what you're doing now, you are the CEO of a bourbon company. How in the world did that happen? I mean, what was it that said to you, Hey, I gotta get into the private sector. And then you mentioned you were in some consulting roles out to get in the bourbon business.

Mark Erwin 36:33 

You know, again, David, I've been very fortunate with relationships and introductions, I came out of the military in 2010. And I wanted to do something other than defense contracting, I kind of felt like I had done my time on the defense side and wanted to do something different. So have a fabulous wife, who was allowing me to take some risks. She was our breadwinner, and doing well in the banking world. So I started walking the streets in New York with some great introductions, I had basically telling hedge funds and private equity firms that I can help them in their challenging operating environments. And we wound up starting a business and getting some jobs for some of my former mates in the Navy Seal and delta community. And we did a lot of work for corporates overseas. And that's actually what I was doing. When I got hurt, I wound up creating my own risk advisory firm. And that's what I thought I was going to do for a long time into the future. That's when I'm at Bardstown bourbon company, I was introduced by a good friend who, you know, John Mac, former head of Morgan Stanley, he was asked to be on the board of this company, he didn't know anything about bourbon, he knew I liked bourbon. I didn't know that much about bourbon either. But I enjoyed coming out here getting to meet this team, cm what an amazing business this was. And through that, I wound up being on the board at some point. And then there was a change of focus on the founder and previous CEO and the way they wanted to grow the company. And I got the call three years ago, in Delta, obviously, we heard from within this is obviously a hire from without significantly, not even from the industry. But good on our founder, I think it was the right time, right place for some leadership, one on one, to an organization that had awesome growth opportunity. And all I did is come in and provide some of these extremely talented people that my predecessor had hired, give them the freedom, the resources to grow this thing. And that's exactly what's been going on for the last three years.

David Novak 38:33 

But you didn't have any experience in the bourbon business. So you come in totally as an outsider, how did you parlay the skills that you've learned in the army into really taking over a business where you clearly weren't an expert, you're running the whole show.

Mark Erwin 38:47 

First of all, remember, the army were very good at executing budgets, meaning spending money, we're not good at making money. So I do give credit to the job I had with the private equity firm out of New York to help me think about profit and loss, and figuring out how to make money. So I was comfortable with that part of business in general. And look, this is not rocket science out here. It's focusing on quality. It's focusing on making great products. I've got key leaders in every single piece of the business, frankly, same as I had when I was command and military organizations. There was a lot of activities that I wasn't by any means the expert. And the advantage I had is at least I'd grown up through the organization and seen it. So this is different. And there was probably a lot more questions when I showed up out here, both in the industry and among my own team of who is this guy, but again, I came into it the way I would anything else open, wanting to learn, wanting to find where the influences are in the organization, and figuring out how to enable them to help them do their jobs better and that's truly the focus I've had and I think the talent and the reason we're growing is because of these great team members we have that are incredibly smart at what they're doing themselves. And we now have a common vision of what we're trying to achieve, which is grow, internationally recognized independent spirits company,

David Novak 40:16 

you were kind enough to give me a tour of Bardstown bourbon, and I really had a blast walking around the distillery with you. But one of the things that really impressed me is that you knew everyone by name, you introduced me, and you told me specifically what they did. And you could see the pride in their faces as you did that, what's behind that? Where did you learn that skill,

Mark Erwin 40:37 

I want to be part of the team, just like I want everybody else to feel like they're part of the team. So the only way to do that is to try to build those real relationships. And look, it's not easy when you're growing an organization and it keeps growing. And you gotta keep learning and learning. But I used to term it in the military is being there. So I'm not a workaholic. I don't sit at my desk all day. I don't stay at my office late at night. But I want people to know that I'm there, when they need me that I understand what they're going through, and what their issues are and what their requirements are. So the only way to do that is get out of the office and get around and see people what they're actually doing at work, how they do it. And they're much more likely to tell you what their issues are, if you're out there on the floor with them than if you're trying to get it through a meeting.

David Novak 41:28 

Absolutely. You know, and you mentioned earlier, there is this thing called the Kentucky Bourbon Trail where tourists visit the distilleries, and most of them and I've been to a lot of them. Most of them are very, very traditional. But I was really impressed with how modern and contemporary your distillery was, and your new restaurant that you have there, which has a phenomenal chicken sandwich. And I like to think I know my ticket, it was unbelievable. And he had a tremendous shot there. What was your thinking in terms of you described it as Napa vacation,

Mark Erwin 41:58 

I go back to our founder, my predecessor who actually created the mindset of it, we honor that history and tradition of bourbon and America spirit and what's going on here in Kentucky. But at Bardstown bourbon company, we're pushing innovation in every way we can. And so part of that is those unique experiences that we're trying to create. So it's not just one standard tour, we're creating experiences every day to make them different because it is a tourist event, we're in hospitality. And people want something different. We have a lot of repeat offenders that keep coming back to our distillery. Number one, because we have this great restaurant and many of the others don't. It's part of the transparency and everything we do that I think is opened up Bardstown to be a talking point for the Kentucky Bourbon Trail where most of the tour guides, they want people to see what's going on there because they realized that it's unique and different. And again, we honor that history and tradition. As we push innovation and modern approaches to Bourbon.

David Novak 42:56 

What do you see as the biggest challenge when it comes to building bourbon brands

Mark Erwin 43:00 

go into any restaurant in Kentucky, almost all of them have great bourbon bars and just look at the shelf. That's what's hard about it. How do you stand out on that shelf of hundreds of other brands? Yeah, there's some capital outlay and all of that. But that's there in any business. This is how do you stand out and become unique in an industry that plenty of people are very familiar with their products that they've been drinking for years. But I will tell you that right now is the time to do it. Because people are searching. They're reaching out for different brands, they look to try different things. There's a lot going on in the bourbon world. Now with all these different bourbon podcasts and social media pieces going on that I think you got to have something unique, and frankly, the fact that at Bardstown we went with the total transparent piece, which is not something that's been traditional in our industry, we take honor in our ability to blend whiskies which again, in the bourbon world, there hadn't been a lot of talk about that. We've become experts at finishing whiskies in wine barrels, or beer barrels, or cognac barrels. And we've really made a name for ourselves in those three areas. But I'll tell you, what I'm most proud of, is the fact that there are folks at our place that are proud to come to work every day. And that's what makes it fun for me. For years, I drove into delta, and literally kind of felt like the hair was standing up on the back of my neck to be privileged enough to come to work every day. I will tell you, I've got that same feeling now, which to me, I hope it's the last job I ever have. And I'm gonna keep doing it as long as they let me out.

David Novak 44:40 

I think they're gonna let you do it as long as you want. You know, you mentioned earlier your custom distiller in fact, you're the largest custom distillery in America. What exactly does that mean? And how do you go about leaving that segment, you create special bourbons that are unique and individualistic for different customers.

Mark Erwin 45:01 

Yeah, we do, David. So most people do contract manufacturing, right. So the big animal up in Indiana, they make a lot of whiskey for others, but they basically make what they make, and then you come by, it's not like you get influence over what they're making. At our place. It's totally custom, we interact with our clients early. Some of them come to us with a brand idea, but they don't even know what they really want in their whiskey. So we'll take them through a full series of products to let them kind of define with us what they're looking for. And then we'll help them develop that actual mashbill to achieve that. So it's truly custom. Unlike any other organization, I'll tell you, it's not as efficient. We ran over 50 plus mass bills last year, the way to be consistent as whisky is to run the same thing every day. That's where you're going to get the most bang for your buck. But again, that's why this is unique offering, we're helping a lot of folks who have a dream to put a product on the shelf, we're helping them achieve that dream. So it's something that's pretty special. And we're proud to be a part of,

David Novak 46:07 

you know, when I was running yum brands, I have to tell you, I had a lot of difficulty controlling my eating. You know, I'd go into the restaurants every day. How in the world do you and your team, keep your drinking under control. I've had your bourbon, it's really good.

Mark Erwin 46:22 

I like bourbon to David. But I can't imagine sitting around drinking it all day. It's a passion, but it's our job to there's some who literally taste for a living. That's a different job. I don't have that job. But it's something that obviously, in our industry at large, we focus on people drinking responsibly. It's certainly a key part of our business and our industry. But I think what's most unique about bourbon and whiskey in general, is the experiences that go along with it. That's what you remember, you don't remember sitting around knocking back like you did maybe in your early days with tequila shots. What are most remember about bourbon? And I think what most people are into it for now, is those shared experiences and the stories that go along with that bourbon that you're sipping on. So that's what it's all about domain, not how much or how often,

David Novak 47:09 

Mark has been so much fun. And I want to have some more with a lightning round of q&a. Are you ready for this?

Mark Erwin 47:14 

Let's give it a shot.

David Novak 47:15 

Okay, what would be three words others would use to describe you.

Mark Erwin 47:21 

Hope trusting, fun to be around. And I would love people to think about integrity when they think about me.

David Novak 47:30 

What's your biggest joy builder

Mark Erwin 47:31 

shared experiences with people being happy,

David Novak 47:34 

your biggest joy blocker?

Mark Erwin 47:36 

I guess it would be people being unhappy.

David Novak 47:39 

Your biggest pet peeve.

Mark Erwin 47:41 

I'm not a big fan of being around people who aren't willing to be honest.

David Novak 47:44 

Who's your favorite general in history?

Mark Erwin 47:46 

I've read a lot about a lot of generals in history. But I absolutely have to go with the ones that I've been fortunate enough to be around that are part of history. General McChrystal is one of the most respected guys that I've ever worked with and been fortunate to be around and see the dedication that he gave our nation for a number of years.

David Novak 48:06 

If I got in your car and turned on the radio, what would I hear?

Mark Erwin 48:10 

It depends on the morning, but you'd either hear 70s Or you'd hear classic music.

David Novak 48:17 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Mark Erwin 48:20 

That I'm really introverted? You don't believe that? You know, I

David Novak 48:24 

really don't, but I'll let you get away with it. We're about to wrap this up. But I want to take you back for a minute. Tell us a childhood story that really impacted the kind of leader you are today.

Mark Erwin 48:35 

My parents were divorced, probably when I was about eight years old. I was around my dad. Occasionally. We hunted every Thanksgiving. That's where I got my love of hunting from him. But my mom was the she was a parole officer hard worker trying to figure out how to put kids through college. And she was a huge sports fan. And she supported everything we did. My sister was like I said, Hi in very talented gymnast. My brother chose to work all his life. He literally started working at 15 didn't really do much of the sports stuff after young age. But team sports were it for me. That's how I grew up. That's what I focused on. And I think probably what stood out that kind of made me realize I was a leader is when I started seeing coaches try to use me to influence to coaches specifically I had an Irish soccer coach early on who chose me as his data to influence and I felt that every day when I was drowning, and then my high school soccer coach, he really was a football coach and got tagged soccer wedding, a big deal in our high school, but I could sense in every way that he was trying to use me to influence others and that's where I think I enjoyed it. I loved it. I thought this is what I should be doing as leading teams.

David Novak 49:52 

You are an outstanding soccer player at Wake Forest. What did it mean to you when you got inducted into the Wake Forest Sports Hall of Fame and Do you remember your greatest collegiate highlight?

Mark Erwin 50:02 

Look, that was a huge honor. They had not inducted any soccer players. Soccer was not an elite sport. When I was at Wake Forest, it's now one of the best programs in the nation. When I was there we were starter kit, we were literally first year they had a division one schedule was my freshman year. So we weren't eaten in the special lunch room with the football players, or the basketball players were kind of the scrub club. So see in soccer at Wake Forest, and what it's become, and to be a part of that early on. That was a huge honor for me and my wife, who who I've met at Wake Forest as well. So to be there on that wall is pretty cool to see it. I tell my wife all the time, and she thinks I'm weird. But I can very specifically remember goals that I had, how I scored them, probably the one that sticks out is the one where I broke the ACC scoring record my senior year, and I had a break away from midfield. I think everybody knew I was like, You're gonna score, I scored this goal. I ran over and my whole fraternity was there to flush Bobby on the field. And that was probably one of the coolest experiences in soccer career for sure.

David Novak 51:11 

You know, you've mentioned your wife a few times, tell us about your wife and how she handled all the pressure that comes with the kinds of jobs you've had. And now you've had high pressure jobs in the service. And now on a commercial basis.

Mark Erwin 51:24 

Yeah, David, you know, having a sounding board and a support mechanism is huge, very fortunate to have met my wife in college, you know, I went in the Army promised her that I was gonna do three years and go get a job. That's what she signed up for. She moved to Colorado right out of college and started her route of 25 years in service. And I mentioned earlier it is it is the families who take the brunt of it, we signed up, we're doing what we do, the families that and sign up. I've got a son who he was born two years before I got into delta. So he was 16 years old when I came out of delta. So he grew up with that he grew up with that being gone, he grew up with all of those things. So I think you have to have a warrior wife to put up with that stuff. She's been priceless to everything we've done. She's the one that has kept me straight. She's now even more of a sounding board, because I'm talking about people in a civilian role. And she's been there, she's done that she's had some of the same types of situations. So it's even much more of a sounding board now that I can use.

David Novak 52:35 

Last question, what's the single most important bit of advice you can give to aspiring leaders?

Mark Erwin 52:42 

If you're not having fun at what you're doing, go find something else. I can't imagine trying to slog away and not enjoying what you're doing. And one you're never going to perform to the level that you could. And then I'll add one more, because I think it's critically important. I think it's the get stuff done piece. There's so many leaders and David, I know you've seen them where they get bound up and they can't make decisions and keep moving. You're going to learn from every one of those decisions, whether it works out the way you thought it was or not. But the worst thing is to not make decisions and watch things just stall. So I took one and made it to

David Novak 53:19 

Well, that's great advice. And you know, it's really been great mark to have this conversation with you. Congratulations on all your success at Bardstown, bourbon, and just the impact that you've made on the world. It really is incredible, but I do have a little bit of advice for you. Yes, sir. I wouldn't do any more backflips. If I were you. You look really good. You're healthy or good shape. Leave the gymnastics to your sister. All right.

Mark Erwin 53:41 

I tell everyone don't do backflips after 50.

David Novak 53:46 

They thanks so much. I appreciate it.

Mark Erwin 53:48 

Thank you, David. Thanks for having me.

David Novak 53:59 

Well, you can just hear in the way he talks, Mark just loves leading and being a part of a team from his soccer playing days throughout his service in Delta Force to walking the floor at the distillery. He's so good at building and commanding strong, high performing teams. Now if we want our teams to operate at the highest level possible, we've got to follow Mark's example and equip them properly. That means setting them up for success with the right resources, whether that's capital or training, or more staffing, and then giving them the freedom to go out there and execute the mission. So here's an idea to apply this takeaway in your week. shoot an email to someone on your team that you trust, ask them where they need either more resources or more freedom to get their work done. It's a simple first step, but it's so important if you want to set your team up for success. So do you want to know how leaders lead? Well, we learned today is the great leaders prepare their teams and equip their teams properly. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Stan Druckenmiller, arguably the number one investor in the world. I'm not just throwing that title around. Stan really is the greatest investor of our time. And he knows how to lead in his industry. And wait till you hear how and why he has generated such great results year after year after year. I've always been a risk taker. And if you don't shoot for the sky, you're not gonna get to the sky. And you're gonna hear all this in the episode next Thursday. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen and while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be