David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Well, I couldn't be more excited about this conversation, because the new NFL season kicks off this week. Yeah, that's right. Football is back baby. And is the perfect time to sit down and talk with my friend, Roger Goodell, the Commissioner of the National Football League, he is starting his 16th year as NFL commissioner. And if you follow the news at all, you know, Roger has had to make some tough decisions and deal with his fair share of conflict. We certainly don't have time to go through all of them. But there's certainly a lot we can learn from how he leads, because let's face it, Roger is the chief executive of the most popular pro sports league in the world. That kind of success comes with its own challenges. What does great leadership look like when your product is so darn popular? How do you fight against the complacency that often comes when you're succeeding? Keep listening so you can learn exactly how to keep pushing the status quo, no matter what level of success you've achieved. And let's face it, the NFL has been on a huge run. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Roger Goodell.

You know, Roger, I wish I was there to greet you, in person. But I gotta tell you, you've got one of the strongest handshakes that I've ever experienced in my life. I feel like I gotta get ready for it. Did you get that from hanging around all those football players? Where's that strong handshake come from?

Roger Goodell 1:56 

Well, I think you should mean what you do one, but two is it probably does come a little bit from shaking hands with a bunch of big guys and strong guys. But I get that a lot when it comes to the draft bear hug. And that is something that I've learned to be defensive about. So to me playing offense is a good thing. In this case,

David Novak 2:15 

the commissioner's signature is on every single football. What was that experience, like the first time you saw it, when you took the job?

Roger Goodell 2:23 

You know, you never really think about that when you're going to be commissioned in the NFL, you'd really don't fast forward to that. So the day after I was elected, somebody gave me a football with my name on it. And the first time you look at that, it's sort of startling, and it hit you a little bit. The funny story though, the first game that it was first regular season game where it was actually used, I believe, as a Sunday night game. And I believe it's in Pittsburgh, it's Miami. And John Madden and Al Michaels are doing the game and I was up in the booth. And the reality is that the opening kickoff fell off the tee. And I said this is not a good start. And and coach Matt and gave me such a hard time about it. And I actually have it in my office right on the other side of the room.

David Novak 3:09 

And I want to keep safe that is you know, when you became commissioner, what was there anything that caught you by surprise and taking on that job, something that you didn't expect?

Roger Goodell 3:19 

You know, David, I was Chief Operating Officer and I didn't think there'd be many surprises. I think the biggest surprise to me in reality was I can't leave the office and go outside like I did as Chief Operating Officer, I gave him my best advice. But at the end of the day, he had to sit there and make the decision. And I realized there was nobody else to come in the office. I was there to make that decision. I had to think about it, I had to come to the best conclusion I could you feel that responsibility, and you realize there's no place to turn, you got to make that decision.

David Novak 3:49 

You know, speaking and making decisions, what would be the toughest decision you ever had to make in the seat so far,

Roger Goodell 3:55 

it would be hard to really pick one, I would say the biggest challenge for us probably was COVID. And trying to work through that because none of us had any experience. None of us really truly knew what was happening any more than the rest of us. We were all seeking the best medical advice. But we had to put a plan together to play under circumstances that we had to ensure the safety of our players and other personnel, our fans where we were permitted. And that was a biggest challenge of bringing everyone together to accomplish that. So that would probably be the highest on my list. There were lots of other challenges and a lot of difficult decisions. But that period of time was very, very tough.

David Novak 4:34 

Roger, what would you say would be the most fun part of your job? It seems like a really glamorous job. I know you got a lot of challenges, but what's the most fun part of it?

Roger Goodell 4:42 

I don't think I'd use the word glamorous, David. But I would say that it's an incredible privilege. I love this league. It's essentially the only thing I've done in my career is work for the NFL. That's how much I believe in it. And I think I'm on 40 years this season and To me, it's the fact that what you do has so much impact on people's lives. And for years, I think we as the NFL have learned that lesson 911 was a lesson when my predecessor Paul Tiger was commissioner and how we could help heal the country in some small way. COVID was another lesson of could we provide a little hope and inspiration during a very difficult time for our country. When you realize the impact that what you do has on other people and so many people? I think that's really powerful.

David Novak 5:34 

You know, if there's one thing that I've learned Roger, from doing my research is that you are persistent, you can underline persistent and when you want something, you go get it now, walk me through how you got your start, be NFL,

Roger Goodell 5:49 

well, persistent, I would agree with relentless maybe another word I'd add in that which I say often, I graduated from college, it's what I always wanted to do, I sent well over 50 letters, I had well over 50 rejections, no one even really gave me an opening. Eventually, someone in our NFL office who has since retired and passed away, Don Weiss, responded. And I did let go to your point of being persistent. And I always say there's a fine line between being persistent and a pain in the ass. So I was always very careful to let him know how strongly and how badly I wanted this. But I was also cautious of not being a pain in the ass. And eventually he responded enough to say, if you're ever in the area, come by the office, and I'm happy to meet with you. Well, I said I am. And I'm happy to come in whenever you want. I said, How about eight tomorrow? I said, fine. The problem, David, I was in Pittsburgh. And so I had to get in the car and drive most of the night to get there and be there at eight o'clock the next morning, but I couldn't miss an opportunity. And so you have to take advantage of every opening you get. And I think that's been the biggest challenge getting in getting in the door.

David Novak 7:03 

Did you keep any of those letters just kind of remind you how difficult it was to get in and remind you to be relentless?

Roger Goodell 7:09 

Fortunately, he did keep all the letters and I have sat, right? Yes. And I love looking at it. And I remember talking to him when he left. I said, Don, why did you hire me? And he said, you don't you're a nice guy. And I said what? Hannah say I was taken aback. I said honestly, I didn't see anything. And he said no, you had the smarts and the passion. I could tell that. But you know, it was a lesson to me that people want to work and have people work for them that not only can do a great job and perform but also that you enjoy being with

David Novak 7:43 

you. I want to take you way back to 1986. And as I understand it, you're an intern with the NFL and you were Pete rosellas driver at Super Bowl 20. And Rozelle was the commissioner at the time. What do you remember about that experience?

Roger Goodell 7:59 

I remember every moment and it was a unique opportunity for me to be close to somebody who I considered my idol professionally. I always admired Pete herself for the way he did his job, I thought the role of Commissioner was really extraordinary. And for me to be able to have five days, six days with him, his family, his friends, and see it from the inside was invaluable. And so it didn't matter if it was carrying his bags, driving him taking care of his guests working on tickets, that was a five or six day experience, I could never get back. And as much as I admire Pete from the outside, the more I got to know him the more I loved him,

David Novak 8:40 

what was it about his leadership, you think that really set him apart?

Roger Goodell 8:44 

I think what was great about Pete Is he had control of his ego, he understood that he had to orchestrate, you know, over the period of time, up to 28 teams and get them to come together. So he had to bring two different leagues together, they NFL and the NFL, and how he was able to manage that and manage the room. He was able to orchestrate all that he had people speak up about various things. And he didn't always have to make the point. He would have other people do it. And he was able to sort of bring all that together and understand that had this great sense of timing of when he brought an issue to the floor to be resolved. Because he talked them out. He had everyone sort of find their positions, express their positions, but then he knew exactly when to make that compromise and when to get it done. And I think that's really valuable to the NFL cluding what is an extraordinary vision because I think he understood the role of television and what that could do for the NFL better than anyone in our history.

David Novak 9:43 

Well, he is certainly renowned for his leadership as are you and you know football has been a passion of yours from a very early age. And here we are kicking off another season which is got to be a thrill for you. How would you describe the state of the game today Roger

Roger Goodell 10:00 

I've often said, there's never been a better time to be a fan. I think the quality of the game, the competition, the safety of the game, the incredible stars that we have, particularly at the quarterback position. And they're so young still, so many of our quarterbacks and star players really has so many wonderful days ahead of I think that's exciting for the game for our fans, for our teams. And when you see that competition, we always look at how many teams can go from last to first, we're one of the few leagues who have that kind of competition. Unfortunately, teams go from first to last. But that creates hope in every market prior to the season, which is what we're in the business of doing. And people could come in and say, Are we going to be the Cincinnati Bengals of the 2021 season this year. So every fan has that we all look forward to the unusual or the surprise moments are going to happen either as individual players just go to a different level, or whether a team can rise up to that challenge. So that's what excites me is the unknown. Your team

David Novak 11:06 

tells me that you walk into the office every day with a desire to make the league just a little bit better today than it was yesterday. What's a recent improvement you've made that you're really proud of?

Roger Goodell 11:18 

I would say this for the context of what we're talking about today. One of the big challenges I had when I became commissioner is the leak was so successful, that when you start talking about what we should do this, and we should do that we should focus on this. A lot of people reacted as saying why we're already successful. And my answer to that is because we can get better. And it's sometimes harder to drive change in a successful organization for that reason, that people are somewhat resistant to change. And why take the risk, we're already at a great level. My view is the NFL has got so much more potential. And we can grasp that. And we can achieve that. If we continue to be smart about the decisions we make, we continue to act like we're number two and continue to find new ways of doing things. So this year coming into the season a big change. For us, we have our first new game media partner in Amazon Prime on Thursday night football. First time, we've moved to a streaming platform exclusively. And I think it's going to change the way football is watched over the years because of the technology. But I also think it's exciting to have a new partner that is excited to be on Thursday night football and get to promote it to a level that's never happened before. So that kind of thing really excites me.

David Novak 12:38 

I understand that you take regular trips to Silicon Valley, to meet with tech companies. And what's the motivation behind that? And what do you hope to come back with after those trips,

Roger Goodell 12:49 

a new perspective and understanding of what's happening in technology and with companies, we don't just go see companies that we will likely do business with, we actually see companies that we admire that are finding new solutions out there using their technology, their products, and try to see how we can apply that to ourselves, and how we can make the NFL better. If a partnership somehow we've also met, that's fine. But that's not the objective. And in most cases, that doesn't happen. The reality is what we do is we understand other industries, better other companies better, and how we make the NFL better.

David Novak 13:25 

You know, speaking of Silicon Valley, I heard you bet with Steve Jobs at Apple headquarters and in one of your meetings, he gave you the seed of an idea that you executed to improve the fan experience in every stadium. Tell us about it. I

Roger Goodell 13:37 

first saw Steve Jobs as an icon. So it was fun for me to get his perspective on the NFL. He was very engaged. You know, he said, You know, one thing I would really think about is I know this is gonna sound at this stage rather old. They said you really got to figure out how to get Wi Fi in your stadiums, so that you can improve the experience for fans in the stadium. And we set out to do that. Now obviously, we've been able to do that we have Verizon, I've got wonderful 5g. So we've long bypass that time. But what it told me was the importance of technology and improving the experience for our fans, whether it's on television or on media platforms, or whether it's in our stadium, and the importance of doing both. Our experience in the stadium is really important through media. And we saw that in 2020 when we had empty stadiums, it's a tougher experience for people to watch something where nobody's watching it. It's not a studio game. The fans are a big part of the game.

David Novak 14:40 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Roger Goodell in just a moment. But I want to ask you, how do you stay motivated once you reach a certain level of success? Well, not too long ago, I sat down with Wendy Clark, who's a fantastic ad executive and the global CEO of Dentsu International. She's the walking definition have success, but she still sees herself as an underdog. In our conversation, you'll hear exactly how to lean into that underdog mentality and use it as fuel to fight complacency.

Wendy Clark 15:11 

We first have to take the Challenger mindset because I think if you take the challenge of mindset you care, you always think of yourself as David going up against Goliath, right? And you try harder. You don't sit back on your laurels, you don't think I've got this done. And then Pepsi comes along and eat your lunch. So I think the challenge of mindset just keeps you hungry, it keeps you focused, it never lets you rest. It drives innovation, it drives ingenuity, it drives excitement. And frankly, it doesn't matter that your company is 120 years old, 130 years old, you are the steward of that brand. In that moment, you have a responsibility to leave it better than you found it.

David Novak 15:47 

Don't miss my conversation with Wendy, Episode 43 here on how leaders lead. I know you're a serial learner, and whether it's from conversations with other CEOs or other leaders, you're always trying to get better as you just talking about you know, why you visit Silicon Valley, how else are you sharpening your AX and improving your own performance,

Roger Goodell 16:13 

just being prepared every day to not fall into the trap is that you've been doing this for 17 or 18 years, you have all the answers, to seek out and find solutions to complex problems by looking down the road far enough, but also not getting comfortable that we've cracked this ache we've got a lot of work to do.

David Novak 16:34 

It seems like you see complacency is a real enemy that you try to fight every day. What do you do to really jar your organization to make people not get so comfortable? I mean, you are really successful, I'm at the league has never been more popular. How do you jar people into getting out of their comfort zone?

Roger Goodell 16:51 

Well, David, I was probably a little bold on that. Because actually, in 2006, when we had the search process to become commissioner at the final presentations, there were five candidates. And that was exactly my theme, the biggest risk we have is the NFL going forward, it's complacency. And it was probably a little bold to say that to people who were enjoying a great deal of success. But I really do mean it. And in fact, that theme has been intertwined with most of my comments to the ownership over the years, but most specifically and most recently at our annual meeting this year, because I really do believe the NFL is at a level of success that we've never been before. But I think our opportunities are so great right now that it's on us to seize that and missing that opportunity would be a failure for all of us. I think when you can identify the opportunities and potential for success. I think people get that. And I think it's your job to identify that and make that vision clear for them. And they understand if doing nothing is a risk in and of itself. So let's seize that opportunity.

David Novak 17:59 

You know, speaking of identifying opportunities, you seem to be really making a big push to make the game global. I mean, that had to be a pretty jarring thought. I mean, we're gonna go all the way to London and play football. I mean, come on, think about the air travel. I mean, you gotta be kidding me, Roger.

Roger Goodell 18:15 

Listen, it's our biggest growth opportunity, the world is shrinking, the opportunity to be able to reach fans on a global basis and partners is easier. And frankly, every time we introduce our game, to a new market and to a new fan base, they embrace it. And you see how those fans go from being a novice fan, to a very sophisticated fan. When we play in London, which we're now doing three times this year, there are more jerseys from 32 different teams in any stadium. I know. The fans are sophisticated about the rules, the strategy, they know when to boo when to clap. It's like being in a stadium in the States. And I think that's a tribute to the fact that our game has incredible potential. We just have to find the right ways to share it and grow it with our global audience and immediately making that easier. You know, we used to play preseason games internationally, because of the issues. You're talking about most coaches that say hey, what are you doing, we can't fly overseas. But what we found the first game we played over there, one of the teams was the Giants went on to won the Super Bowl that year. And they actually credited playing internationally as part of that reason, because it was a chance for them to take a breath. They were all overseas together. And it brought unity to the team. And coaches saw a different side of this. And so this year, the first game overseas will be our 100 international game, regular season game. And the last team of the 32 is Green Bay, and there'll be playing in that game. And what we've been able to do is demonstrate a great experience that can be done for the teams but also not in any way be negative from a competitive standpoint. So teams have actually embraced it and we actually have worked seems wanting to go than we can handle. And that's a good problem to have,

David Novak 20:04 

as you say that the NFL has never been in a stronger position. And recently, you negotiated a massive deal $113 billion for television rights for the next decade. What does this deal make possible for all parties involved? And what did it take for you to really get that deal done?

Roger Goodell 20:22 

Well, we negotiated that during the 2020 season. So that in and of itself was pretty difficult. The biggest objective here was to continue our prominence on the broadest reach of television and other media platforms. So for us, it was one thing to get the right economics, but it was more important for us to get partners who were going to take our content, and make it even more attractive by using innovative technology and to put more behind the promotion and give people a different way to view NFL football. And then we wanted it to be able to reach the broadest audience and broadcast television still has the biggest platform right now and has the biggest viewership. And that was important for us. But we also had to look to how we were going to be able to adjust to the changing media landscape, which is changing hourly, daily, and it's something that we wanted to be prepared for. So for us, getting into more digital opportunities to be able to take one package on Thursday night, as we talked about with Amazon Prime and put that on a streaming package, to be able to work with our partners to figure out other digital opportunities to be able to have opportunities on social media, to be able to engage fans, where they wanted, but also how they want it. And to be able to create new opportunities for them to do that. All of that was critical in the context of that and to bring all that together with obviously the right economics, but also the right opportunity for us to continue to grow our game through these great partners.

David Novak 21:55 

You know, I wouldn't be serving our listeners, well, if I didn't ask you to, to walk through what you see as the keys to negotiation, because you do a lot of it, what are two or three things people should be thinking about the next time they're trying to get a deal done, that's really been effective in your own negotiations?

Roger Goodell 22:11 

Well, number one, David, we really try to pick the best of the best, as partners, we're fortunate to have that. But I think we've been really careful in selecting partners who we think can really add value through that partnership. We also really look for alignment, we look for partners that have aligned interests, and make sure that our deals however we negotiate them are clear about our objectives internally, and frequently with whoever we're negotiating with, to make sure we achieve those objectives. And we both understand what those objectives are. So we can both create value. And we really look at creating value for our partners. And we want the negotiations to be successful. But we more importantly want the deal to be successful, and that we can work together and create value that we may not have imagined in the midst of a negotiation. And so at the end of the deal, we want people saying you exceeded expectations, we exceeded expectations. It's been a great deal. And I think your last negotiation is probably important in the context of your next negotiation. Because if you don't have a track record for that people look suspect at IU. And so we've always been able to achieve that. And I think that's important.

David Novak 23:23 

Have you ever used the tactic of you know, just walking away from the table and saying, Hey, we're so far apart?

Roger Goodell 23:29 

Oh, yeah. No, I think sometimes you have to do that. David, I think you can impress some people how important a particular issue is to them. But until you walk away, I think they don't know that you've really reached your end game. And I think it's really important to be able to do that. But you can't do that bluffing, David. And I think that's the real key point. If you're going to play that card, and you're going to be able to do it, you better be prepared to walk the walk. And so for us when we do it, we have to be really certain that we're prepared to walk away from it when we do that. And so we're pretty clear in our intent. And if we can't get there, we will walk and I think your actions have to support your words. If you're just doing that as a negotiating tactic. I don't think it's effective.

David Novak 24:19 

You know, recently, the Broncos organization sold for a whopping $4.65 billion. What comes to mind when you think about the impact you've had on the value of these franchises?

Roger Goodell 24:32 

Well, listen, it starts with this only 32 We're relatively conservative in our ownership policies, we could probably open our policies up we have pretty conservative debt covenants. We want to make sure that our teams are run properly and that we're not over leveraged, but also we are well capitalized. And so we look for owners who want to come in and beat that structure to can provide value ultimately, and actually make our franchises worth more money by the way, they operate their franchises. And by the way, I'd add, they also are very active on league level, we work very closely with our membership on committees, committees that are made up of owners and most of our big issues, whether it's labor, TV or any other major issue. And they have not only a large say, but they provide us a great deal of direction about how to move forward. And then we take it to the membership, which is 32 clubs, and we have to get a minimum of 24 votes, David, I've had CEOs tell me, that's crazy. How can you do that? I personally look at it opposite. I look at it as if we can come up with a solution that 24 of 32 successful business people and organizations can come up with, you probably reach a pretty good solution.

David Novak 25:46 

What do you expect to those eight that don't go with you? I mean, how do you get those guys to go forward?

Roger Goodell 25:51 

All we have to do is get to 24, I always seek to try to get 32. Because I want there to be not just a consensus, I want there to be unanimity. That's not always possible. And there are a lot of times clubs would vote for any number of reasons why they're going to vote against it. But I would say the vast majority of votes that we've had, since I was commissioner have been in 2930, clubs voting in favor of it. And I think that it reinforces my point, work hard to build that consensus to make sure everyone has input into it, and get them all to feel ownership and that

David Novak 26:28 

you're a tremendous business person, and you've done such a great job growing the NFL. But I hear you tend to look at things more from a fan perspective than a business perspective. Can you give me a for instance, and how this plays out and how you do your job day to day,

Roger Goodell 26:45 

we just launched a product called NFL plus, it's a subscription service, it's a direct to consumer offering that will have a number of features to it that we think will be exciting for our fans, probably a little bit over a year ago, they came to me with a version of this. And my view of it was It wasn't putting the consumer for us it wasn't what does the consumer want. It was more from the other side of here's what we have to offer the consumer. And I think it's really important to try to meet the consumers demand. But more importantly, try to be ahead of what the consumers may want. And the key to that is access. Ultimately, for us, I think fans want more access to great content, more access to the players or coaches more access to inside the game, more access behind all of the brands and shields, they really want to understand what's going on behind that veil. And so for us, that's what we really seek to do. And you have to put your fan hat on which they are very open when you meet with them. And I reach out. And we have fan forums, we have lots of opportunity to hear from fans. And listen to them. You know, one of the things that I've been focused on over the years and happy that we changed in the context of our season structure was reducing the number of preseason games and increasing the number of regular season games. We did that after years of work not only to make our game safer, but also to put our best foot forward and always lead with quality and preseason games weren't our highest quality. They're non competitive, our greatest players don't always play. We wanted to use them as an appropriate thing to prepare for the season. And there's exciting elements of preseason, which I'm a big fan of. But at the end of the day, nothing replaces a regular season game.

David Novak 28:31 

Absolutely. You know, I understand you've instituted a year round calendar. Talk to me about that strategy.

Roger Goodell 28:38 

Well, we can't play despite expanding the season to 17 regular season games, we can't and nor do I want to play football all year round. I think the beauty of our season, we're probably the shortest of all professional seasons by a large margin. We certainly have less games than almost all the other leagues. And I think that's an advantage for us in the context of quality over quantity, ultimately. So for us, we wanted to build the offseason so it could build excitement for the next season. So the Combine where we evaluate the college players coming in, and fans love that. And they'd love to hear the stories of how these players are going through their journey of becoming an NFL player. The draft is the ultimate in that whether you're looking at the draft of how my team is going to get better. Or many of our what I would consider are more casual fans, you're looking to say, how did that individual get to that place? What did he overcome? How did he get to this place to earn the opportunity to have an NFL career that's become a showcase that we have 55 million people watching the draft over three days. We have, you know, half a million people watching it in person. And we've made it a real event again, going back to a point we made earlier, taking the risks of moving out of New York moved out of radio city and to move into Round, and try to share it with more of our fans. And the fans have actually made it a better event. And so for us, it was just a giving people that opportunity through event, even announcing our schedule now, which is, you know, we spend a lot of time and it's an important element of how we produce our content and play it out through our networks, is scheduled games, it's got to be competitive, it's got to be attractive from a fan standpoint. And we have to balance a lot of issues. But we make that into show now. And in multiple networks pick it up when we do it. So it's all a part of the show. You are

David Novak 30:36 

made for TV, baby. You got all kinds of great stuff happening. And by the way, the NFL draft, you made that huge. I mean, did you have that kind of vision that it would be combat huge. I mean, you you want to talk about fan interests. You know, I live in Louisville, I remember we're here in Nashville, you get 600,000 fans in Nashville come to the event. Holy cow. Did you ever see this? I mean, this was a tremendous idea.

Roger Goodell 31:01 

I would be misleading you at least David to tell you that my first draft I think was in 1984. We had an a ballroom at one of the hotels here in New York on Seventh Avenue. If there were 100 fans here, I'd be surprised. And I remember the story. When ESPN came to then Commissioner Pete Roselle said we'd like to cover the draft. Now they obviously were young Sports Network, they were looking for content. But I think the reaction from our standpoint was Boy, you really are desperate for sports content if you want the draft. But ESPN helped us really build that. And you know, eventually we started moving it to different venues in New York. Obviously, we moved at the primetime, which I think was a huge step in the 2008 or nine period of time, we shortened the rounds to make it more attractive for fans. We brought players in, which I think was exciting. And then I think the real topper to that was when we moved it around. And we gave each city like Nashville, an opportunity to present it the way they wanted to. And I think that was magical for us. And then the interaction with the fans. I think it's all been really important.

David Novak 32:10 

You know, I love watching just so I can watch you get booed?

Roger Goodell 32:13 

Well, you're probably booing right there. I can hear you.

David Novak 32:18 

What's that? Like? Would you get booed so loudly? Roger. You know,

Roger Goodell 32:22 

David, I always remember that the first time that really happened, I think was 2011. And Radio City, we had just called a lockout. So we were two months into a lockout. And when I first came up to the podium, it was not only deafening, I could actually physically feel it. It almost pushed me back. It but it was really good in the sense. You felt the frustration of the fans, the fact that they obviously didn't want a lock out, they wanted their football, and if you're between them, and football, you got a problem. And I understood that. But I also understood how important it was for us to get the right agreement, so that the game could continue to grow. And you have to go through pain to get to the right place. And that was clearly a painful experience for us.

David Novak 33:11 

Roger, what's something about getting to announce the draft picks that most people wouldn't know? Can you give us a little behind the scenes secret or fact?

Roger Goodell 33:19 

Well, I think the biggest thing is the pronunciations because you do not want to mess that up. Because this is a big moment for these young men and their families. So I really focus on that. I really try not to chop that. And you know, there's some tough ones. But we try to get that right. We try to make the experience for the fans Great. One of my favorite draft stories. So was in Philadelphia, and we had well over 100 and some odd 1000. And Philly fans are vocal, let's put it that way. And they were booing me well, but then I went back and Drew Pearson from the Dallas Cowboys. We sometimes have a veteran players who will participate and actually announce one of their picks. And we were he was sort of on deck. So he was a pick away. And he said, are they going to boo me and I looked at him. I said you I love you, but they're going to kill you. Because you're a Dallas Cowboy. This is Philadelphia Eagles territory. And he seemed somewhat surprised. And he said, What do you think? And I said, my suggestion. You go out there and have fun with it, go out there and talk about the Dallas Cowboys and put it right in front of them. And it was one of the great moments of the draft because he just went out there and talked about cowboys and how great it is to be a cowboy. And Philadelphia fans were going crazy. He was having a good time. But that's what it's all about is the show the personality of our players but also to engage with those fans. And I felt that was a moment to me that it clicked that we want people to have that engagement. It was all done in fun. Although there probably be a lot of Philly fans and cowboy fans who may not agree with it. It was all in fun, but it was a great moment. It sort of demonstrates the importance of our fan of oppa I believe every

David Novak 35:05 

great leader must have a plan to get better. In fact, I think it's so important that I actually send out a weekly leadership plan. Each week the plan focuses on a different leadership topic and gives you actionable steps you can take to develop that skill on a practical level. Think about it, like a leadership development program only. It's simple, no fluff, practical skills that will help you lead your team to success. You can get free access at how leaders lead.com/plan That's how leaders lead.com/plan. Obviously, not everyone's going to clap for you in a role like you have you got a lot of tough decisions. You know, it's thinking about your job. And I think the title of the NFL commissioner could just as easily be CEO of crisis management. You're dealing with everything from concussions, sexual harassment to player misconduct. What process do you use Roger to get to the right answer, because these are difficult issues?

Roger Goodell 36:05 

Well, David, a couple of things. First off, I agree with Pete Rozelle often told me, they don't cheer for commissioners, and they shouldn't write their passion, their loyalty is to the club's into the NFL, maybe in general, but its Commissioner, that's not your role. And so operate that way, expect that, but also, your job is to do the right things for the game. Ultimately, even if that's unpopular, I think you know, the good news on the issues you raise, I spend very little time in the vast majority of my time on things that are more exciting, those are difficult. And I think the most important thing is to have the right process to get the right people working on it, to do the evaluation openly and honestly, and make sure that you hear different perspectives. You know, when you're making decisions, it's really important to hear alternative perspectives. If you feel so strongly about a particular issue, you shouldn't be afraid to put it out there and let people shoot at it, and try to see if it stands up to the criticism and listen to a lot of these things, you're never going to make everybody happy. Sometimes you're never going to make anyone happy. But the reality of it is you got to try to do the right thing. And the right way to do that is to be thoughtful, here, every bit of information you can when we make a bad decision, the thing I most regrets if we didn't think of something if we didn't analyze a perspective appropriately. You know, there are a lot of decisions, you know, that you make, and we make 1000s of them, you know, in a very short period of time, you can't be right on all of them. The bottom line is you want to make sure you're thoughtful about and you try to make sure that you've thought of those issues, those things that come up, you're gonna miss on those sometimes.

David Novak 37:48 

There are times when everybody misses, believe me, I miss more than I would care to recall. You know, when you look back, and you think of a time when you think the NFL got it wrong, and how you took that experience and made your team better.

Roger Goodell 38:02 

I don't know if I'd say we got it wrong, I think there were a lot of things that I think we could have gotten to faster. And we could have made changes quicker. That could have made a difference is example one of the things I think about a lot is it relates to on the field, or some of the techniques that became used in our game that I thought were unsafe, they created potential for greater risk of injury. And we stepped in to try to get ahead of that and take those techniques out. It's not popular, because fans think that you're changing their game. And one of the things I've often said, I don't think people believe that we could make our game safer, and still make it better. So they thought you were changing something they love, and it would never be the same. We had to convince them of both. And that was a really difficult challenge for us. And doing that involve changing culture, we had to change the culture of the NFL, and people understanding that you can play the game this way. It's safer. And it's not going to enjoy the thing we all love about the game, the competitors that the hard hits, but that we would keep our players safer. And I think we've proven that over the years.

David Novak 39:15 

I was watching the historical special on the NFL and you know, the safety issues been around since Teddy Roosevelt. He got together with Harvard and Princeton and tried to change the rules. I mean, it's a never ending battle as you go forward.

Roger Goodell 39:28 

You're right. And I actually have read all that. And I think about that in the early 1900s. At that time, there were a distance before helmets, but there were skull fractures and players actually died on the field from that. And so the helmets came along. And Teddy Roosevelt forced a lot of changes in the game because he believed in the values of football. And I do too, and I think about that all the time. There are so many positives from playing this game that I would never give up for a moment. But we still owe it to everyone to make the game as safe as possible. And I think we've done that

David Novak 40:00 

Yeah, I think you've definitely made a lot of great changes on that front. And you know, when you have challenge and conflict, I understand that you get calmer, you know, people describe your leadership is you are calm when the there's thunder and lightning out there. And how do you stay calm in these tougher situations because you do have big wins.

Roger Goodell 40:19 

Everyone loves conflict, immediate loves conflict, they love crisis. But I think it's really important to keep a level head and think through it, what really is happening, where's the problem, identify that correctly, and start focusing on solutions. And it's not always a straight line, it's not always popular, it's sometimes mean, you're gonna have to go through some rough waters to get there. But ultimately, you got to think long term. And you got to make those tough decisions that require you to have a calm head, and to require you to think through it, and not be emotional. I like to think in my life, at least most bad decisions I made, I was emotional. And as you know, a lot of times emotion isn't helping us think clearly. And I think when you can try to bring it down, and just try to think through a clearly without emotion. Not that I don't have a lot of emotion, believe me, I think that's going to lead you to a better conclusion.

David Novak 41:14 

You know, you mentioned COVID earlier, as being one of the great challenges that you had, and you're the only league in the world to play every single game during the pandemic. And as I understand it, you got the union to agree that if a game isn't played, the players aren't paid. How do you find common ground on that one?

Roger Goodell 41:32 

Well, it's even more complicated, because in March of 2020, literally before the world was shutting down a few days, we had completed our CBA of 10 year extension, but the players were actually voting on a Sunday morning. And I remember that vote came in by probably over 2000 votes. And I think it was approved by just around 30 votes. So it was really close. And I think back of that now, had we not actually had that agreement, the players hadn't had an agreement, the challenges we would have had. The fact is that we had this foundation, which is our new CBA, we had to now go into what I would consider a whole new CBA negotiation. We call it the mini CBA. That summer, that dealt with issues like medical care, how are we going to keep our players safe? What would we do to the CBA, because we fully expected our revenue was going to go down dramatically. And that could have affected the cap. And so we actually reached an agreement, essentially, where we subsidize the cap, if you want to call it in return for making sure that if we weren't all together on this, we didn't play, we weren't going to get paid. So we were all in the deep water together. And I think ultimately, that was the key is that we were all working towards one goal, keep people safe, play our full season. So two goals, I guess. But that was the mantra for us. And we were all incented to do that. And disincentives if we didn't reach that goal. And we all had something at risk.

David Novak 43:06 

You know, I know your dad had a huge impact on you. And will you tell us about the document you have on your wall remind you about one of the big lessons that he taught you,

Roger Goodell 43:16 

I do it have it and I walked by it every day. And I think about it so frequently, because my dad was appointed from a congressional seat in New York as US Senator when Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. And shortly after you got into a Senate seat, and he only had two years left in the term. I remember sitting down with the family. And he said, I'm going to stand up for something that I believe in, I'm going to introduce legislation to end the Vietnam War. The president who is a Republican as I am, will not be happy and more than likely I'll lose this election, because they won't be happy and know what Senator in there that's going to follow the administration's lead. And I'm not. And he did it for the right reasons. He ended up losing the election. And what it taught me, David, and the reason I keep that legislation, it's a copy of the legislation from 68. I keep it there to remind me that you have to have the courage to do the right thing, even though you know that there are going to be significant negative consequences. But when I make a decision, I know people will disagree. Calling a lockout is a very hard thing to do. But I knew we had to do it to get to a better place. And you just have to have that courage to do it. I think so many people know the right answer, but don't have the courage to do it. And that was the lesson that I carry with me from that moment. And I actually shared that with the owners at that same speech in 2006. of why I thought I was prepared for this that I would have the courage to do the right thing.

David Novak 44:45 

That's awesome story. You know, what your passion and love for football originate? Roger? You like a superstar in high school in college. I'd

Roger Goodell 44:53 

love to tell you that David, but I know you won't believe me. So anyhow. You've seen my golf game.

David Novak 44:59 

Yeah, I know. SR handshakes, they scare the hell out of me. I do not want to have a collision with you.

Roger Goodell 45:05 

Well, that was the only thing I was good at is the collision part. But I grew up in Washington DC we had one of the public parks kitty corner from our elementary school. John Eaton Elementary School is called Johnny and playground. And we used to go over there almost every day we throw our jackets down in the corner, we played tackle football with no pads, no nothing. And we did it until the sun came down. And I just love the game of football. I love the strategy. I love the contact. I love the teamwork. I love to every aspect of it. And somebody gave me a Duke football when I was about six years old, and I slept with that for weeks. People tease me that I still sleep with it. But my wife can vouch I don't. But the reality of it is, I just fell in love with the game. And I love playing it. I realized that I wasn't going to be an NFL player. I probably regret one thing in my life and not playing college football. But I chose to pursue a career in the NFL from a different perspective. I thought that was a better approach. And that's when I I fell in love with Pete Rozelle what he did is commissioner and I always felt that was such an important way to contribute to the game if I couldn't play. And I started when I was in college saying I want to pursue a career in the NFL I studied with the league did I study with Pete Rozelle did I read everything I could. When I graduated from college, I wrote my dad a letter. And I said, Thank you for the opportunity to go to college. And I have a couple of things I want to make sure I do in life. And that's one to make you proud. And to be Commissioner, the NFL. And that was probably the most foolish statement I could ever made. I would have loved to been there whether my dad read it because he probably laughed out loud.

David Novak 46:44 

That's like saying, Do you want to be president when you're a kid never to come true?

Roger Goodell 46:47 

Well, it's almost worse if you look at it from number standpoint, because we're 102 years old. And I think I'm the eighth Commissioner.

David Novak 46:55 

This has been so much fun. Roger, and I want to have a little bit more before I let you go with my lightning round. Are you ready for this? Okay, I don't know. Here we go. What are three words that others would use to describe you?

Roger Goodell 47:07 

Stubborn? Determined? And I hope there

David Novak 47:13 

if you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Roger Goodell 47:17 

Nobody. With all due respect, I always say I'm never going to want to be somebody else. I am the most fortunate person in the world. I never spend a moment thinking about anybody else. In the sense of I want to be that person. I love what I do grateful for my family, friends, co workers and this opportunity. So I don't spend a single moment thinking about that.

David Novak 47:42 

I actually believe that because you've been doing this for four years, and you saw it, this is what you wanted to do. And I've never had anybody answer that way somebody will at least give me something. Okay. What's your biggest pet peeve?

Roger Goodell 47:54 

People don't give you 100% effort.

David Novak 47:57 

Now, are you allowed to have a favorite football team?

Roger Goodell 48:00 

I probably allowed to interesting enough. I grew up as a Baltimore Colts fan. And for those who are a little younger, the Colts were in Baltimore until 1984. I then became a Washington Redskins fan for a long period of time now the Washington commanders. But when I really started to leak, you lose your individual team fandom, and you become fans of the 32 teams.

David Novak 48:26 

What's your superpower?

Roger Goodell 48:29 

I guess I would probably go back to that relentless determination. And you say can't do me. And I say can I love it? When somebody says I can't do something?

David Novak 48:42 

What's something about you that few people would know? Well,

Roger Goodell 48:45 

my wife always teases about this because she answered this question. So I'm gonna give the same answer is, you know, you would think you'd love rocky which I do. My tastes and movies is incredibly broad same with music. But I can get really teared up over a rom com, how's that?

David Novak 49:02 

That's a good, you know, the players are obviously essential to your product that you sell every week. And when they get in trouble and they can't be on the field. Everyone suffers. How are you investing in the development of these young men?

Roger Goodell 49:16 

Well, David, a couple of points. First, I am incredibly amazed at the group of players that we have. They are amazing young men, what they do on the field, we all know it's extraordinary what they do in the community. I'm not sure people appreciate it enough. They are remarkable as a group, and as individuals, I am just incredibly impressed and honored to work with them. So I have great respect. And frankly, many of them call many of them text. Many of them are open about suggestions and they are smart. They make our game better not just by the way they play but by the contributions they make to what we do as a week. And I just been overwhelmed by that in their context. What I would say is My closest relationships honestly are where people that have made mistakes and face discipline in some fashion. And my hope in the discipline process is actually that we're not ending their career, we're actually extending their career. And the reason I say it that way is that for all of us, when we make a mistake to step back, be accountable, learn from it, usually will give us the ability to go on and be successful. And I'm a huge believer in second chances, particularly when you earn it. And you know, for someone who's willing to take that perspective, and there's such a long list of them that I talked to on a frequent basis that, you know, we came from a tough spot, right, we have friends that we've all had disagreements about. But when you come from that difficult position, and have a respect and understanding of one another, from that, it actually makes that relationship deeper. And so from my standpoint, that's one of the most rewarding things about this job.

David Novak 51:00 

What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader,

Roger Goodell 51:05 

have great mentors, have those people that you can reach out to get a perspective on that you might not be thinking about, you know, you and I have had lots of times together, including with a couple of our friends, and to be able to hear from your friends exactly how they see the world and to share with you, you need that perspective. And so listening is a really undervalued quality, when it comes to leadership, people like to think it's people come in and give you three choices, and you select the one you go, you have to listen, first, you have to understand you have to do the analysis, you have to make sure you understand the consequences and the impact. And sometimes the timing, your decision is more important. A lot of people feel like to show leadership, they have to make their decision quick. I argue you make a decision when you have as much data as you possibly can, we would all love to have all the data that shows a clear answer. But most of the time, as you know, as CEOs, or leaders, you live in the gray matter. It's not always clear, it's white or black. And you have to make judgments about how to balance information, how to weigh information, how to understand the consequences and make decisions from their

David Novak 52:15 

last question, you know, you talked about your wife a little bit. How do you balance it all with your partnership with your wife, who I know it's very special to you? How does that play into how you do your job?

Roger Goodell 52:26 

Well, I'm really fortunate I have a wife who is successful earn, right, she had a television career and was extraordinarily successful with that. So I think she understands the pressures of that. But she's also the most loyal person I've ever met in my life. And, you know, she understands what I'm going through. But what she's not afraid to tell me when I'm wrong, David, we need that, by the way. But if anybody comes after her husband, she's the first to stand up and defend. And she actually did that once on Twitter, by the way. And the bottom line on it is, she's been an incredible partner. I love her dearly. We have the blessing of two children that I say to her all the time. I don't know why we're so fortunate to have these two young, wonderful women, we are blessed. And so having the family is allowed me to be able to do this. They understand how much I love it. They are great about the time I have to commit to it. And I spent every waking moment I can when I'm not working on this job with my family because that's that's my biggest priority.

David Novak 53:33 

Speaking of blessings, Roger, it's a blessing to have you as a friend and everybody that does feels the exact same way you are one stand up guy and you've got so much stuff going on. You joked earlier that if I waited for a day that you didn't have something going on, we'd be doing this podcast 20 years from now, but I appreciate you taking the time out. And you know, because right now, Roger Goodell has some big issues today, and he's still doing this podcast. So thank you very much, buddy.

Roger Goodell 54:01 

It's always a pleasure to be with you. You know, I love you. And I admire you and your leadership. And you've been a big part of my success just by having your friendship and support and being able to reach out to use it many times. So thank you for all your leadership and know you've done for so many of us and showing us the right way to do things.

David Novak 54:28 

Well, it's always so inspiring to talk to Roger. He never and I mean never stops looking for ways to improve. Even though the NFL is wildly popular. He is just relentlessly out there advancing the vision, challenging the status quo, finding new opportunities, and making sure the future is even more successful than the present. Now that is a lesson for any great leader. So this week, I want you to think about an area of your business or your life, where you're doing pretty well. Now, give your Sell 30 minutes to think strategically about it. Consider your long term vision and get brutally honest about where you can improve. Don't fall into the trap of accepting the status quo. Just because you're doing well. Make sure you're still actively setting yourself up for even more success down the road. So do you want to know how leaders lead? Well, we learned today is a great leaders fight complacency. Coming up next on how leaders lead. I'm talking with Mark Irwin, President and CEO of Bardstown bourbon, and the former head of our nation's elite fighting force, the Delta Force,

Mark Erwin 55:36 

you got to build those real relationships where people trust both ways, right? I've got to trust that individuals are doing what they say they're going to do. The integrity is there, and they gotta trust the same of me. Even more important, is it. Everyone has a common vision and understanding of what you're trying to achieve, and that they have individuals who are empowered, and freedom to operate, and then that to actually are able to provide the assets and resources. That's when teams really perform.

David Novak 56:06 

So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be