Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. You know, there's that old saying that the only constant in life is change. And boy, isn't that the truth, especially for us leaders? We've always got to be scanning their horizon for the next big disruption or the next big idea. Now, some leaders see those shifts coming and feel threatened, but great leaders know how to embrace those big changes with curiosity. And they're the ones who find the new opportunities that big changes always bring. And that's what I want for you. And today's conversation is going to help you become that kind of leader. I'm talking with Marissa Thalberg, the chief brand and marketing officer of Lowe's, and an absolute legend in the marketing world. She was out ahead of digital and social investor lotter. Her keen instincts at Taco Bell redefined the brand at a crucial time. And now she's at Lowe's looking ahead to how data and loyalty are once again changing the game. If you want to learn how to leverage big changes for your business, this is the conversation for you. We're going to see exactly how great leaders embrace big changes with curiosity . So here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Marissa Th alberg. You know, you've been recognized as one of the top 25 marketers in the world and one of the top five social business leaders in the country. What's your secret sauce? What makes you so good at what you do? I think I'm good at connecting dots in ways that people don't always see. And if I have a little bit of a marketing superhero talent, I think it's that. And why I think that's relevant is because our world is so dynamic and it's so changing and we're competing in this sea of noise and, you know, fragmented attention. And so to be able to create connections that do enable you to tell a story in a way that stops people or makes you think of business opportunities in a new light, that actually is I think what it all comes down to for me as part of my, if I have a gift, I think it's that and how to bring teams along to feel that way and see it and get excited about doing the same thing. So connecting dots, is that the same thing as being a pattern thinker? Can you give me an example of what connecting a dot would mean? Well, I think the key is connecting dots that aren't immediately obvious to other people. So maybe in that sense, it's not quite the same as being a pattern thinker because I'll give you a couple of more well-known, maybe slightly more extreme examples from our shared past of my having had my previous tenure was being the Chief Random Marketing Officer of Taco Bell and starting to make connections that weren't obvious but rooted in a business problem. Business problem in fast food was how do you not get stigmatized by the downward opinions about eating fast food and its relevancy and appropriateness and American food culture. But at the same time, Taco Bell is just a different kind of brand. And so my view was, well, it's kind of already sitting at the precipice of culture and lifestyle. So if you push that further, it starts to become truly an other, truly a brand that stands for itself. And that way is sort of inoculated by some of those potential pressures. And so then thinking about things differently, like when we were opening our flagship restaurant on the Las Vegas Strip, how do you get people's attention? What are things we wanted to do? And the obvious things, of course, while alcohol, while alcohol was going to be part of the proposition, it made that restaurant a lot of money, but it also isn't necessarily where you want to take the brand reputation. So we started thinking about other things in Vegas like weddings. Well, as it turns out, we were able to connect a dot to the fact that people who are real fans will sometimes even post pictures of themselves in their full wedding attire outside of a Taco Bell. And that gave us permission to say, no, this is not a totally fabricated, crazy idea. It's rooted in a real kernel of a human behavior. And that's what made us say weddings in Taco Bell. Those are connecting dots that people would generally think are crazy, but then you treat it with sincerity, even if there's a little wink in your eye when you do it. And suddenly you're uncorking a whole new opportunity for the brand and business. That's kind of a fun little example that I thought you'd appreciate it since it 's a Taco Bell. I love it. I love it. You helped make Taco Bell a great brand, an iconic brand and made Taco Bell Taco Bell, not just a quick service restaurant. You know, Marissa, you were one of the first to recognize the need to become a digitally focused marketer. You were literally ahead of your time. How did you see that coming? Well, David, you know, the funny thing was, maybe this is another way of talking about even connecting dots with myself. And this is unfortunately an often female trait that when an opportunity presents itself, if you don't believe you can do all of it, you think you can't do it. And so when the S.J. Lauder companies back in 2007 and I were engaging in conversation, I had already a good amount of beauty industry experience, but they were creating this role that was the first corporate and first digital marketing role for the company. And I thought of all the reasons why, oh my gosh, am I fully qualified? But then I started thinking about all the things I had done in my career from starting executive moms to being early digital marketer all the way back in 1999 with other beauty brands. And so I said yes to that. And what I realized was I had enough of a curiosity about how the world was changing. And that was what was always it for me. I wasn't a tech person. I was a marketer who just saw that the world was changing and got excited about trying to make sense of it and how to translate it into a big enterprise corporation. And that's what I did. So I taught myself so that I could then teach others. And that's an empowering realization. Absolutely. And one of the interesting things here is that you not only had to navigate the change for yourself, you had to bring people along with you. The biggest problem being a digital marketer, particularly in those days, is getting a budget, getting something to spin. How did you go about getting decision makers on board with what you were seeing ? Such an important point. And I had the added complexity of being in a corporate role in a portfolio company. So to your point, it was an influence job because I didn't own the budget the way I had in other places. I had a budget. But we had a portfolio at the Estray Lauder Company. So 30 plus brands, people don't realize it's so much more than Estray Lauder. It's Clinique and Mac and Bobby Brown and Joe Malone and La Mera and Avada and on and on. So a couple of things. The immediate remit of the job was to grow e-commerce sales. So you start with what's right in front of you and you think, how can I make this better? And in that sense, there definitely was budget because it was tied to performance marketing, right? So how do we strengthen search engine marketing, email marketing, all those parts? I redefine the job though, because I looked and in the situation analysis that we all do in our new roles thought, well, I can take that from here to here. But this company is ignoring the larger white space that brands are fundamentally moving into digital world and no one's talking about that on a brand level. So I changed the scope of my job and I made it my job to do the e-commerce part , but to also make it about this larger view of digital and social marketing. And the way I had to do that was find the early adopters who'd listen and who were willing to place some small bets and experiment with me. And so we got a little bit of money together because we would do things that, and they weren't very costly, but it was challenging because this was a world of brands in luxury. Luxury was really holding out because think about the old definition of luxury. We tell you what to think. We tell consumers what to think. So this paradigm shift that now consumers are going to be part of the conversation was very threatening in those early days to brands, particularly in the luxury space. So I had to find ways to, as you said, to bring people along. And that was one of the most interesting challenges of my role is how could I be a change agent? How do I get people to come along when there are a lot of reasons they're resisting this change? One of the things that really impressed me about your thought leadership is that you'd define the role of marketing. You said you not only need to be an advertiser today, you also need to be a publisher. Talk about that and how you came to that conclusion. Well, that was very much born out of how I was feeling in that role at the S.J. Lauder companies and my realization and mine to at that time, I had started this organization executive moms on a shoestring. I had done it actually prior to that several. So it was already quite active now for several years. So I was a content creator and a corporate client working with content creators . So it gave me this very interesting dual lens. But I was also dealing from a pure media standpoint in my job, going back to my earlier days at Calvin Klein cosmetics, Unilever cosmetics, and then now at the S.J. Lauder with the traditional magazine publishers. And it was a buyer-seller relationship for years and years. And I started sort of ringing the bell and saying, "You guys, we've got to think differently because we have audiences too that we can aggregate." So the traditional advertiser relationship was, "I've got a product. You've got an audience. So I'm paying for your audience." But digital and social media disrupted all that because you think about a brand with a few million followers on a Facebook page or Twitter account and Instagram or their website. And it's not like you only need media companies now. You have audiences too. So it changes the value equation. And I found that really inspiring is to say, "Hey, let's think differently about how we're partners now. What do you have that I need? What do I have that you need?" And let's think about what doing business together looks like as a partnership versus a buyer-seller. And some people were really receptive to that message, but others, of course, were not and were laggards. And I think we all know how that story turned out. So that was just for me again, sort of just seeing what was happening and drawing the right conclusions and connections to what it meant for the brands that I was playing a leadership role on and how to just create a more modern sense of business value. I think that's kind of what makes it all hard but fun. -Advertiser to publisher. That's a very simple way to communicate. It's so important to be able to distill complicated information or a complicated situation into a really simple thought. And that's a real simple thought, going from advertiser to publisher and being able to do both. How did you develop that skill? And what are you doing as a leader to help others get that skill? -Well, I think we all have skills and attributes that are more innate. And then others that we have to work really hard to develop. And I think both, you know, David, as you talk so much about leadership, we all get into positions where it's starting to just recognize what those innate skills are in ourselves, but also then when you're managing teams, figuring out what the innate skills of your folks are and how to make that sort of harmonious with the work. For me on that part, I don't know. I guess I've just always loved being a storyteller in some way. I wanted to be an actress when I was younger. I don't know, Broadway specifically. Thank God I didn't pick that path. But you know, there was something in that. And then I, you know, did college news. So there was something about getting people to understand that I think really does drive me. Forging those human connections drives me. So that part is the part that comes naturally. But there are other parts of the job that don't come as naturally. And so you surround yourself with good people and you stay humble and curious and you learn and you try to fake it and integrate those parts until you really can be as holistic in your job as possible. And I feel like now as a manager of large teams, that's what I try to do as well as how do you bring out, I guess, the excitement and the curiosity for this field that is changing so much, but make people feel that, you know, it's possible to continue to grow and develop. And by the way, when I came to Lowe's, no one, no one would have seen their job as being a storyteller. I mean, almost no one. So even just reframing our roles and making people see that that was part of what they're here to do, if not a big part of what they're here to do. Because that becomes an unlock for people rethinking what their role is. You mentioned something that I think is crucial until you get a skill, fake it. That's the interesting thought. I mean, you know, when you're coming up, you don't know everything, but is it important for you to convey the people that you think you do? And what do you mean by fake it? I know I tossed that out a little flippantly. I was hoping you wouldn't quite pick up on it, but you did. Take it in that sometimes some of us can be terribly hard on ourselves if we don't have total expertise on every part of the world. And I don't mean fake it, obviously, in a way that would be detrimental. But, you know, own your confidence in the parts that you do know and work with the other people on the parts to support you and both true. That's the beauty of working in a team environment is that you can lean on other people's skill set. You know, I can speak enough about the financial picture of our company that I mean, is that faking it? Maybe that was the wrong word, but I can talk the talk to be credible. It doesn't mean I'm the expert on. And that's okay. I have a CFO. Who's that? By the way, you're in good company with that comment because, you know, I interviewed Tom Brady and he said when you don't have confidence, you have to fake it until you do. But you know, you got to give people the sense that you got enough to get people where you need to go. You're not without company on that thought. You see yourself first and foremost as a creative person. Is that true? And if so, tell us about your creative process. It is. And I'll tell you something. I had a really hard time with figuring out that side of myself where I was in my 20s and that angsty 20s that many of us have figuring out our careers. And I started my career in advertising. It's heartening to know you did too. And I was in what was like the strategic side, which felt right to me because I actually am really good at that. And I love that part. I love the intersection of psychology and culture and business. But I also feel like I have a really creative soul and I really struggled with having chosen a career where there are other colleagues whose titles were creative because that implied to me that anyone who didn't have that title was by default not a creative person. And I really, really struggled with that. So now finally, I'm at a juncture in my career where it all comes together and I can lean into being, I agree with you. I think I am more creative leader, but it doesn't mean that that means I'm an art director necessarily. It just means that I'm a creative thinker, that I love great work, that I see things in very visual ways. I love language. I love how stories come together. And that is creativity, but I'm enough of the strategy side is strong enough in me that it's always with a purpose. It's always with an objective. And that's what makes this the business of marketing, not just the art of marketing. And I'm unapologetic about loving how those things come together. I think that's what we're here to do. Well, what's the process you use personally to make it come together? I think it really depends. I mean, in the classic sense of developing like a big campaign with a team. I do like being on big brands because it means you have a team to do that. And I like the process of thinking through and really debating with people before anyone puts pen to paper or starts conceiving a commercial or whatever it might be. I like really talking about what's the opportunity? What's the real insight? What are we really trying to solve? And I really force people to speak in plain English when we do that because I find younger members of the team try to use fancy business language for that. And it just it obfuscates the real like, what's keeping us up at night? What do we really wish could happen? And really interesting things happen when you go through that conversational process. And oftentimes I think a really good idea sparks. Sometimes it's a creative idea already at that process. Other times it's about working with a creative team to figure out a way to bring a more strategic idea to life. So for me, the process is contingent on what we're trying to do. When I gave you the example of the weddings or doing the Taco Bell Hotel, sometimes it's just about having brainstorms, about reading and immersing in culture. And I'm pathetically on social media way too much. But for me, that is my absorption process. That's how I'm just taking it all in and then coming back to things and realizing how they might connect later. We've gone from Estolata to Taco Bell, now you're at Lowe's. What are you doing to make Lowe's part of the fabric of our culture? Well, the first thing is I don't think every brand has a role to play in culture, but you have to understand culture as a marketer to sort of figure out is one of the sort of macro conditions, if you will, that inform how you play as a marketer. All the brands you mentioned that I've worked on do have a role in culture. I mean, beauty and how we look and how we feel about ourselves, food. I mean, food is such a huge part of culture and retail is a huge part of culture and our home. So with Lowe's, I didn't want to overshoot. It's so important to stay true and figuring out like what is the real essence of a brand and how do you bring out its best version of itself? That's maybe also one of my favorite things to do as a marketer. So with Lowe's, I wasn't trying to make it cool, like Taco Bell, totally different, but I did feel it is in the cultural landscape. People shop all over the country at Lowe's. So how do you just make people connect with it on that level? Not on just the functional level of, well, my water heater broke. I need to go and get something. But on a level of, wow, making my home better. And then the pandemic hits and we're all focused on our homes more than ever before. So it was a forcing moment of saying forget all the more traditional retail promotional tactics. This is going to be about how Lowe's shows up with its associates for its customers. And in some ways, it actually became a real unintended accelerant for how Lowe 's could be more in the fabric of our culture than it was. You're advertising your same store sales, everything just boomed during the pandemic. So congratulations on all that. You've made Lowe's the NFL official home improvement retailer. Take us through your thinking on that sponsorship. I like to get a sense of how you think about things like that. Yes, and in absolute fairness, that deal had been done before I arrived. So my job, and this was something my CEO and I talked about it, even when I was just interviewing for the roles. I was really concerned because those sponsorships are expensive. What could we do to make sure we're getting our value out of it and having worked in these large sponsorship situations before it kind of goes back to what I was saying about the advertiser, publisher, buyer, seller is you kind of have to fight upstream to not just be sold your sort of your benefits and then check, check, check. But how could we elevate it? How could we get more out of the idea of like what was the opportunity? And the idea that emerged more in year two was this idea of the home team. I mean, it's almost irresistible, right? I mean, sports, home team, Lowe's home. So how to find the right intersection of using that to celebrate the good we do in communities, tapping some of the NFL players with whom we chose to work and we drafted them and made them part of the Lowe's home team. And the nice thing about that is they were getting to do something that they really believed in. So it just made it all feel really authentic and then drafting our own associates and then drafting communities to be part of the Lowe's home team and because everyone roots for the home team sort of the insight. So to me, I can't take credit for doing the deal, but I'll take a little credit for trying to make meaning out of it and trying to get some really nice emotional as well as practical value out of it. Marissa, you've seen marketing move from advertising, traditional advertising, TV commercials, print ads to the whole digital explosion. What's happening in the world of marketing today that's transforming your craft ? Well, the biggest one that is really, really challenging for me, for my team being a company that is playing catch up on technology is really becoming more data driven marketers. You think that would feel really innate to me because of my digital background and in some ways it does, but just how to really get in there and do the kind of more personalized, known customer marketing that can kind of complete that classic flywheel. You do all this great stuff from an acquisitions standpoint, but how do you build their attention and loyalty? And it's becoming more and more important because they're all these complicated privacy changes that are happening and harkening back to my early days in digital where the rise of the cookie was the best thing ever. You could start to actually talk about the benefits of being able to track customers and get to know them and then target messages accordingly. And now some of that's getting a little unwound. And so it's constantly changing. It's constantly changing and figuring out how to be adept and adapt. And in our case, I think we are inherently lucky as a retailer that we should be able to have really good data that we have a closed loop on because they ultimately, customers ultimately transact with us, not with someone else. But that doesn't mean it's easy. Staying on top of the technology, staying on top of how it all strings together , I find that really challenging. And I don't know a marketer who's being honest who won't say the same thing. I agree. It's a dramatic change from certainly the days that I was doing marketing. I'd have to go back and go to school to become a marketer that you are today and wouldn't be nearly as good at it. I want to shift gears for a minute. I'd love to know more about your upbringing. Tell us a story from your childhood that has impacted the kind of leader you are today. When I was in second grade in our local public school, third grade, I was very creative kid. I was writing plays and casting my classmates in them. And I loved all that stuff and we didn't call it bullying back then, but I got bullied in third grade. And do you know my parents went and met with the principal of the school who said to my mom, maybe you could encourage Marissa to be a little less creative. That was her solution. And my mother, who is the product of two public school teachers herself, was so horrified that that was the answer. My parents plucked me out of that environment and put me in private school. And I remember my dad driving me to that new school in the first day and said, "This is a clean slate and you get to be who you want." And years later, I found a letter that my mother had saved from that principal. Handwritten apologizing years later, I did never left her the guilt that that's what she advised my parents to do, apologizing for that being her response. But those early scars that we carry as children, they shape us and they teach us who we want to be and who we don't want to be. And I think that it taught me resilience, which I've tried to impart to my children, that every chapter is an opportunity to emerge even stronger and better and that to be yourself and to bring your best self is the right way to be. And the older I've gotten the more I realize I can be that way. I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. And I think that's my leadership style now. However, in my career in my life would not have maybe been that way. But now it's very much my leadership style because I feel like people look to you as a model. Like, what do I aspire to be? And I want the people on my team to realize that out of that sense of authenticity comes trust and out of trust comes bravery and out of bravery comes creativity. So that's how it all comes around for me is I want my team to feel that they see someone in me who's challenging them, but really wants them to try and to feel safe to try. We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Marissa Thalberg in just a moment. It's no surprise that Marissa knows how to embrace big changes and challenges because she works for Marvin Ellison and believe me. He's skilled at that very same thing. The best way to move forward is sometimes to take assignments that no one else wants, that no one else is attracted to, that people look and frown upon because they don't think that there's a pathway to success. But when you don't have sponsors, when you don't have an Ivy League education, when you don't have mentors with influence, results matter. And so I'm taking a lot of those tough assignments because I want to demonstrate that I can leave. Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Marvin. He's one heck of a leader. Good 28 here on How Leaders Lead. You mentioned earlier, you mentioned executive moms and you're passionate about equipping working moms. Was that passion influenced in any way by your mother? Well, I do feel that my mother was my greatest inspiration in life, but in a decidedly non-traditionally corporate way. I mean, she did have a career. She was a speech pathologist and funny enough, as it pertains to executive moms , you know, I was doing this myself, but I wanted it to look like a big fancy organization and I would run these big events and I needed help. Good help is hard to find. So I put my mom at the registration table and the classic New York Jewish mother. All she wanted to do was chat up everyone. Why are you here? Who are you? And so the line of the van would go out the door and I was, of course, mort ified like mom. You're a professional thing and you're being a mom and I need you to be my professional worker here. But of course, you know, now I look at that with such a sense of endearment and to this day I'll run into professional women on the street of New York who'll ask, I mean, unfortunately I lost my mom a few years ago, but we'll still ask about her and that. That is how I might think about just her character and her personality and her love of just connecting with people that I think shaped me in many, many ways. I don't know that it shaped necessarily the birth of executive moms to your specific question. Executive moms was like a lot of things that I've started and done came out of a personal need that then I started talking about and asking other people about and I was connected in the media industry. So I remember after becoming a mom myself and feeling shocked at how little there was for me as a new working mom in New York of all places. So I was just asking people what can I join? I had no interest in addressing my own new working mother questions by giving myself a second career. I mean, you could argue that was the height of insanity, but what happened was I just kept talking about it and looking and the consistent answer of no, we don't think this exists and you need to go started was the ultimate genesis of a year or so later starting this thing called executive moms and the brand name, I knew exactly what I wanted to be. That's a great brand name and I've read some of the blogs, which I love. I was going to say it's admittedly a little dated right now because over the years, I did it actively for many, many years, but in its moment, it was very, very unique and it was early in social media in a sense because people were looking for community for content. And what I found frustrating was that no one was talking to me as a total woman back then. That was an insight. It was really just actioning off of the insights that I observed and realized they weren't singular to me. They were more universal and sometimes that's how great marketing happens on the corporate side, but it's really also how executive moms came into being. You've become the subject matter expert on the working mom. You've appeared on several network television shows. What would be the three most important things that you think business leaders should recognize or know about working moms? On the one hand, I wish fellow working moms, executive moms, and I define an executive mom as anyone who thinks of themselves having a career, not just a job and also really being absolutely unapologetically proud of being a mom. That's why it's branded that way, executive and mom, because I want both of those words to cohabitate. Some of the early research that I did on behalf of executive moms debunked, I think, some of the negative stereotypes that I believe continue to exist in popular culture about working moms. Think about the last time you've watched a movie or a TV show and seen a working mom who just has it all together. It's always shorthand for the mom that doesn't show up to the meeting or is har ried, and that's not true. Number one, I want both business in general, society in general, and also our own audience of working moms to give themselves a little bit more credit, because the women I then saw flocking to executive moms had it together way more than they would think, but they needed connection. They needed to not feel alone. They needed that sense of commiseration that I can do it, and you're doing it, I can do it too. The first insight was we've got to absolve this feeling that working moms are indulgent for choosing a career over children. We don't say that to men. Working moms are working because they have financial responsibilities. They're paying a mortgage. That's the majority. They can also be terrific caregivers and raise incredibly emotionally and physically healthy children. I want to debunk some of that mythology. It frustrates me tremendously and recognize that some of the best moms and some of the best executives in the world are executive moms. Hand in hand, that would be just debunk or not debunking, but eliminating a little of the guilt, that women are somehow wired to carry in a way that is different from most men. I am generalizing without meaning to stereotype because it's true. They are just different biological tendencies between the two genders. That's why no one started executive dads just yet. They can. But the guilt that we carry about having careers and doing all the things that we want to do for our children, it can be very, very hard until you have an organization like this or a community that helps you realize you're doing it so much better than you think you are. I've heard you say that about moms, we're trying to over deliver in all areas of our life. We can, we as leaders, better support moms in the workplace. This is something we've talked about even when we do our women's leadership forums at Lowe's once a year. I'm very glad that we do those because I think having the conversation is important. I think male colleagues have an obligation to recognize that there is still to this day a disproportionate burden placed on women who have children just really encouraging the conversation and not assuming, not assuming you understand what your female colleagues, experiences, trying to manage career and family because you as a male have a family and a career. So opening up that dialogue, making sure that there are the support services. And most of all what we found and boy does this take on new relevance in the age of COVID is flexibility. As you become more and more perhaps of an executive, there's a trust factor that you can navigate the demands of both successfully. And that's the biggest advice I always give to working moms who ask me for advice is you got to pull back the aperture enough to not measure it every single day because some days work is going to pull harder on you, some days kids. If you're caring for elder parents, like we all have complexity in our lives, you just have to be able to do the give and take and understand that it's a bit of a dance and that on balance you can look at it and say you're doing pretty well in all fronts, then you're probably in good shape and it's only if over time one part is dramatically being negatively impacted that it's time to reassess. You mentioned earlier that you wanted to be a Broadway actress at one point, but when did you have that aha moment when you knew you wanted to focus in on marketing? I think the career of an actress would never have really suited me. I'm too driven. I like to achieve and move forward and move on, et cetera. So the more nomadic nature of being a performer really never would have been for me. So I think what it made me realize was that I wanted to do something that tapped some of those communication skills. And so, funnily enough, I guess I was just driven enough in college that nowadays we all know every college student's looking for internships. But that wasn't really a thing so much when I was in college, but I went after them and not because I was trying to build a resume. I just wanted to figure out what I wanted to do. So I did some crazy things. I mean, I got myself hired with these documentary film producers in Brooklyn. I had to go buy their Mutsarella for lunch from the place Marilyn and wrote got her Mutsarella every day. I mean, I worked as a production assistant on a TV show. I was an advertising agency intern. So I think it just became this crystallization of somewhere in all of this is what I meant to do. And I didn't know exactly what it was, but it was all starting to emerge as I was embarking on my career. So you really get excited about creative and the creative product itself and business leaders. We all have to inspire creative people to get the best work out of them. How do you do it? That's the best way that you've learned to get great work out of creative people. I love that question because we don't spend time asking about that enough. And you know, there's such an old axiom in our business that clients get the work they deserve. So I try to be a client that deserves great work when it comes to, well, I should say that even with an in-house team, I really push for bigger, more so long as it's always tethered to what's, what are we trying to do? What are we trying to accomplish? And then if you have the right tethers, knowing who you are as a brand, knowing what you're trying to accomplish, knowing who you're trying to talk to, those are the only things that should keep you tethered. And then the possibilities should be really open and broad. And I hope that, and I think I know that the creative people with whom I'm work would say, I push them more, sometimes more than they push me. And I think that hopefully makes me the kind of client that, you know, creative people want to work with because I love great work. I really do. I love creativity. Put us in the agency media. You know, when you see great work with your team, what happens? I mean, what do you do? I get excited. I mean, I react in a visceral way because I think that's what we need to do. I mean, we can't take the emotion and the passion out of what we do because we 're trying to elicit that in real life. And for me, that's so critical in all of this. And where I get really excited, people say I have so much energy, but my energy comes from just being excited about making those connections, making people see something differently. And in a way, this comes back to my theater childhood is it's all an audience. So how do you delight them and surprise them and make them feel what you want them to feel? And it's hard. It's really, really hard because then, of course, you have all the real constraints of business. You might have not only 30 seconds, but 15 seconds or six seconds or just a little digital banner to get it done. But a wonderful architect who I've seen speak several times said the real creativity comes through the constraints. You know, everyone says, oh, if I could just do whatever, no, but it's knowing what the constraints are and then designing for that. So I think I just get excited by the possibilities of what can be unlocked. I also get probably a little bit like, oh, disappointed when it's not good. And then people feel like they're letting me down. But it's just because I'm so invested in putting it out there in a way that when people in my own company see it, they're like, yes, you know, I walk into a store and a Lowe's associate is talking about the advertising and they walk with a little more sw agger now because they think the brand's exciting. That's so gratifying to me. In addition, of course, to accomplishing, you know, the financial business outcomes that good marketing is meant to deliver. You work for Marvin Ellison. He's a fabulous CEO. Tell us how you manage your boss. That's something we all need to be good at. I mean, you know, give us advice. How do you manage Marvin? Probably not well enough. I'd be so nervous to know what Marvin would say to that. I mean, I will say this with total candor. Marvin was a huge part of why I came to Lowe's when I met him. And when we come from such wildly different world perspectives, upbringings, but I do think we recognized this commonality of authenticity in each other. And I just thought this is someone for whom I want to work. I just immediately was drawn to him. And so I think the interesting thing is I'm an outsider to the world of home improvement. And so much of Marvin's career has been in home improvement. And so many of my colleagues' careers have been in home improvement. So the hardest part of navigating it is just building up my sense of, you know, appreciation and understanding for why things are the way they are and understanding the nuances of an industry, but believing in the fresh perspective that I've been here to bring and finding that confluence is how I've managed my role and also how I've tried to manage having a good, honest dialogue with Marvin. And he's been really supportive of teaching me the guardrails, but then giving me the ability to try things. And fortunately, a lot of those things have done well and that then gives more confidence in doing more. So I think that's for all of us, right? Is building communication, building trust and empowering one another to go do the good work to be done. Do you see yourself as a CEO someday? Or you just madly in love with what you do? How do you look at that? I always worried when people said, well, what's your five-year plan? And I felt like I didn't always have one. And now I don't really see that as a problem. I have a vision for my future, but I've also learned that the most interesting things have come about my career because I've just opened to the possibilities and, you know, riding the wave of them when they came. So if you would ask me a few years ago, would I have seen myself being, you know, on the management team of, you know, Fortune 31 home improvement company? No, I wouldn't know. But I wouldn't have not imagined myself doing it either. So could I be a CEO? Yes, I could be a CEO. But I would only want to do a deficit in a company where I feel like my strengths as a marketer would do really well in that role. I think that's where I've gotten a lot clearer about that because I know now that I can take on hard challenges and learn and lead really well, but it has to feel like what I know I'm really innately good at back to one of your early questions would still be really leveraged. Guys, I really love what I do. It's not just a stop on the road for me. I feel like I'm in a place I'm really happy to be right now. You talk about the importance of having humility and being a constant student of the job. You mentioned curiosity quite a few times in this conversation. Tell us a story that represents a great example of your curiosity. Perhaps the best example of that is the role that I took on and frankly created as I mentioned at the Estee Lauder companies because I didn't see myself as a digital expert, but I knew I had done a lot of things in digital, if that makes sense. And so fashioning myself to be an expert that could teach others was a really fascinating thing. And it just became fueled by curiosity of all these emerging platforms and what they were about and trying to distill them for the brands that I was representing. So I had to be constantly curious because the world was in the state of enormous change. So that whole role to me is an example of my curiosity. Being able to constantly invent it and reinvent it and figure out what it meant . I love doing that, but I also missed having my hands specifically on the wheel, which was why then moving and translating it to talk a while. Moving into an industry I knew nothing about, moving into yet another industry I knew nothing about, you have to be curious. I mean, it was incredibly daunting to go to talk about and lead a team of people with years and years of experience in QSR when I had none. And people look at you and they question you, why are you here? And it's daunting to be held up to those first questioning eyes. And the only way I've realized you can do that is even though we talked a little about faking it, not pretend to have all the parts that you don't have at the beginning to come and fully acknowledging, hey, I'm not an expert in this, but I know how to draw connections from what I've done before to hear. And that's what I'm going to help us do. And I know how to unlock talent and I know how to think about things. And you're going to teach me and I'm going to teach you. And that is what I've, I think now I realize has been the pattern of my career, is doing that in different ways at each step. I know you're a big believer of building sales overnight and the brand over time. That's a key thing for, I think, every leader to think about it. Explain what drives that. It's a great phrase that I know you really socialize. So I credit you, David. I think it's a great mindset for any business in particular that really is waking up in the morning looking at sales because like any form of retail, including QSR, where you don't have the luxury of reading the business every once a month, once a week. I mean, you're looking at it and that sort of daily, what do I need to do? And that does for certain decisions and it does create a sense of urgency. The danger is that if you become so tunnel driven to that that you don't pull up and see what's around the corner, what's in the environment and invest in the things that do create longer term saliency and relevancy. And so I think the power of that phrase is recognizing the importance of both. And that it can't be one or the other. And that that's actually when you encapsulate it that way, it becomes a very big mantra for how marketers and business people in general should be thinking. You know, Bruce, this has been so much fun and now I'd like to have a little bit more fun with you with some rapid fire questions. It's my lightning round. Are you ready for this? I think so. Three words have best describe you. Passionate, warm, connected. If you could be one person for a day, who would it be beside yourself? Lin-Manuel Miranda. I got to go with the musical theater Hamilton reference. There you go. Okay. What's your biggest pet peeve? People misspelling my name. What's the number one book you recommend others to read? I'm going to answer it a little differently. Not the number one book. I read to get me motivated to come to Lowe's was Originals by Adam Grant. And I'm also a big Malcolm Gladwell fan. So I feel like anything in the realm of behavioral economics is for me, that's where I try to turn my team. Like if you want to get inspired and read and learn about the world and people and our business, that's where I go. What would be something about you that few people would know? I'm an avid word and numbers gamer, believe it or not, on my phone. I'm addicted to word games. And now, of course, everyone's playing Word All, which delights me because I'm playing it with my family every day. So you're a gamer? I'm like a little bit of it. Not a gamer like, you know, Activision gamer, but like Word and I, you know why ? Because my mind, I find like it calms my mind and then on some other level, I'm still thinking while I'm playing. What was your latest home improvement project? Let's see. Well, we bought this house when we moved to Charlotte a year and a half ago and it was a new house, but we did some major work. And so one of the things that, you know, we talk about Lowe's is you can be a DIYer, do it yourself, or you can be a DIFM or do it for me. And that's good too. So we hire pros. So our big project was building a garage and a pool, but smaller projects that we've done is I renovated a desk that was my mom's desk. It was in my house growing up and I put new hardware on it and had it finished. And that just makes me really happy because it's like a little piece of my mom that I still have in my living room. You wear these fantastic glasses. How many pair of glasses do you have? I don't have that many. I only have about four or five because I've been in this phase of just liking the same glasses all the time, but just lately I started playing with adding a few pairs . So who knows? Maybe I'll change that answer in a few months. You're adaptable. No question about that. I'm adaptable. There you go. So what's on the horizon that you're excited about? A project that's something you're part of that's really giving you some joy right now? Well today's point that we're doing this podcast is momentous because we just are nationally launching our loyalty program for our pro customers. And this has been many, many months in the making. It's been really complex. And I'm really excited about it because this brings together all the things we talked about, the hard things we talked about, the things that are natural to me. It's an incredible amount of financial modeling, surprise and delight, building relationships with customers, leveraging data. So I'm very excited to see how far we can take that and really how much we can build an even deeper relationship with that incredibly important pro customer. So that's what I'm excited about. Today we also launch something that's really fun for our DIY customers, which are workshops for kids and adults and what's nice is prior to the pandemic, lows have these in store. But now we're doing it, you know, think a little bit more like Peloton. So you can coven store and do them in real life, but you could also sign up for a live class and participate by chatting and have this great experience virtually or access them on demand, which is how I like to do my exercising. Just when I'm ready, then I want to hit a class and do it. So I mean, that feels like a nice, fun reinvention and it's branded in a fun way. So just picking off all these different parts and opportunities and finding fresh ways to bring them market. There's a lot of cool stuff ahead. Estolotter, Taco Bell, lows. You couldn't pick three or different categories. I know. How'd you get into home improvement? I mean, I've been, when I found out you're going to lows, I was a shocker to me . You know, what was it that made you made that big, big move? Besides Marvin, who I know is a terrific guy. I was attracted to the brand. I was attracted to the brand and I thought I could do something with this. So that was it. It's very visceral for me. I loved, I think I realized that I like things that are big and then trying to make them bigger and better. That's really fun. That's where I believe my sweet spot is. And you know what, David, I've come to really enjoy the part of my own story that making these surprising moves have been. I enjoy that it wasn't expected. And then being able to make the unexpected work, something really exhilarating, terrifying, but also exhilarating in that challenge. And it's made my career interesting. Frankly, the hardest parts in all this have been moving my family now twice. We were the New Yorkers that were never going to leave New York. And so I give my family a tremendous amount of credit for building their own resilience and ability to come along in this adventure with me and support me and build great lives for themselves in the process. But I don't feel like it was like the idea of home improvement so much as the idea of home and what improving your home represents and just starting to think about all the possibilities of that made it an irresistible opportunity. I love how you think about the possibilities. It's great. What's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to improve as a leader? You have to be willing to look at yourself, honestly, as opposed to defensively . And it's hard. It's hard to do that. But you have to be willing to celebrate and embrace and lean into your strengths, but also see yourself as others might see you and think about how you continue to take feedback to course correct. I guess just genuinely commit to wanting to be better at any step of where we are. And those have been some of the most humbling but ultimately transformative moments that I've had as a leader. And they're not old. They're recent examples too. Coming into a new environment, trying to figure out how to build relationships with different people. I mean, it doesn't happen instantly or perfectly. Sounds like you're bringing a lot of your brand building thinking into leadership thinking as well. I mean, you have to do the same thing for a brand. I want to thank you so much, Marissa, for taking the time to be with us today. Fascinating conversation. And it's great to see you doing so well. I know you helped take Taco Bell to new levels. And you're obviously doing that at Lowe's and being recognized as one of the top marketers in the world. And good luck to you. Well, I'm only sorry we didn't get to actually do this thing together back in our shared young tenure. But I'm really honored to hear that from you and to be a guest on your show. So thank you, David. Well, there's no question. Marissa is an outstanding marketer. I love her enthusiasm and creativity. And I just find it so inspiring how she always has her eye on their horizon looking out for the next big thing. And now more than ever, that's a quality every great leader needs the ability to embrace big changes with curiosity, not the fear that just bounds us up and keeps us from taking on big things. And you know, chances are there are big shifts happening in your industry right underneath your nose. This week, I want you to ask yourself, what does it look like to get curious about those changes? What questions do you need to ask? What resources can you learn from? What experts can you sit down with? I've learned when you get curious about change, you protect yourself from that fear-based thinking that can shut down your creativity. Instead, follow your curiosity. And I bet you will find some incredible opportunities. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders embrace big change and they embrace that change with curiosity. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday, you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]