David Novak 0:03 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you will have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is really special. It's a person I love with all my heart, Ken Langone who's been a mentor of mine for several years. He's the co founder of the Home Depot and chairman of NYU Langone health. Now, here's a guy who's had more success than you could ever imagine, in almost every way you could think about it. He's the most popular guest host of Squawk Box, he sought out on every major issue by the media. He's even been featured on 60 minutes for his breakthrough thinking at NYU Langone health. He's an incredible business leader and a renowned philanthropist. And one thing will be absolutely clear when you listen to this conversation. The reason why he's had so much success is his deep down belief in the power of people. There's no doubt Ken believes that you have to recognize people recognize talent, believe in him and show up for the people you have the privilege to lead. And now it's time to listen in. Here's my conversation with my good friend and soon to be yours, Ken Langone.

Ken, I want to get into how you leave. But first, it'd be great to just start out and tell us how you look at the world and what's going on today,

Ken Langone 1:42 

the country is going through a difficult period for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is COVID, the pandemic we've suffered with. On the other hand, I'm very excited to realize that two short years ago, we were all on pins and needles not knowing what was going to happen to us. And lo and behold, within six months, we had a vaccine. And here we are back at it again. Those two years took a lot out of this country. And I think the challenges as I see it in America, are for our leaders, all of our leaders, you David, myself, Biden, you name anybody you want, who aspires to lead, to put a positive point of view in people's minds, to motivate them to reach those goals, and to do everything we can to make them know that we're with them every step of the way, we've got a lot of mending to do in America today. We've been here before, before World War Two, the depression, great down a list of all the times we've gone through bad times, we always come out stronger and wiser. This will not be an exception.

David Novak 2:41 

And you know that positive attitude is something that you bring to everything you touch. I think at the same time, when you look at what the challenge is today, you've got incredible inflation. You have such a divisive country in terms of the politics that are out there. You got the war going on in the Ukraine and China relations. How long do you think it's going to take us to get out of the ditch where people will feel more optimistic and get that kind of optimism that you just conveyed?

Ken Langone 3:09 

Well, the actual length of time is variable. It'll depend more on the leadership, David, the need for leadership in America, positive firming of leadership has never been more necessary than now. I'm right now reading a book called traitor to his class. It's a story about Franklin Roosevelt, as he was becoming president, United States. And you go back and think about the late 20s When we had the depression when we started the depression. Then we had on top of that, we had Hitler's ascendancy, we had Europe and turmoil. We were on our backs financially and economically as a nation, the world couldn't look much worse than it did in the 30s until we got to the 40s. And boy really look bad. But lo and behold, leadership, Harry Truman, Eisenhower, gonna write down a list of all the people that showed us will lead us to the promised land. And here we weren't, we went on to have the greatest prosperity we've ever known as society. Look at the progress we've made in quality of care, health care, longevity of life. Think about this 67 years ago, have you lived to be 50? You are an old man. I'm 86. And I'm counting on my 100 and 72nd. Birthday,

David Novak 4:19 

David, okay. And I'm counting on that too.

Ken Langone 4:22 

But the point is, you got to look hard. And when the going gets tough, the old saying is right, the tough get going. But you got to look hard at what's out there and ask yourself the question, okay, I can sit here and wring my hands and say, Woe is me how bad it is. Or I can take a step back and say, Okay, what's my share with making this thing work better than it is right now? What's my responsibility? And what can I do to help it? So I have an enormous faith in humanity, not just the United States humanity, that we all strive for a better life. And I think this was no exception. I do believe that we've got bigger challenges now than we've ever had before. But challenge is what was Henry Kaiser his favorite expression Problems are opportunities and workflows. And I think that's the case.

David Novak 5:05 

Yeah. And Ken, you've mentioned a couple of books already. And you wrote an incredible book called, I love capitalism. In fact, you called it your love song to capitalism, which I think is just an absolutely beautiful phrase. Explain what you mean by love song.

Ken Langone 5:22 

America works. capitalism works. My grandparents came from Italy about 140 years ago. And they had nothing, absolutely nothing. My grandfather died illiterate. He left school when he was six years old. In Italy. He got married, he had two children, he left his wife and two children in Italy, he came to America is sharing a room with 11 other men on Mulberry Street, Manhattan, saved enough money to send for his wife and his two children go them over here. My mother was their firstborn here. At first child they had together in America, his mom, my mom ended up working on the school cafeteria, she married my dad, God bless them. They were the most, the most loving, giving people I've ever known in my life. So here I am, David, today, with somebody I admire and respect so much such as yourself. And here I am being asked to get my thoughts on capitalism and leadership. That can only happen in America, David. And so I thank the good Lord every day that my grandparents came to America. I say it all the time, my word, I have a lapel pin, an American flag. And when I put it on every morning, I say, grandma, and grandpa, thanks for coming to America, because it wouldn't happen.

David Novak 6:33 

That's great. Tell us a story, Ken, about your upbringing, that when you look back had the greatest impact on on the leader that you've become today. My parents

Ken Langone 6:43 

were very interesting people. Then once the eighth grade, a mom went to the seventh grade, my father's favorite expression was in evident get enough education. No matter how much you study work. And I think part of that was a reflection of the fact that he only wants the eighth grade and he was capable of so much more. He was brilliant. Mathematically, he was incredible. The thing I remember about my upbringing, David, was this upbeat, optimistic can do belief that tomorrow would always be better than today. And a thing I feel strongest about I have an obligation to my parents to carry this optimism on because they were eternal optimist, no matter how bad it was, when dad was out of work, how tough it was. A mom, of course, had to go to work to help make ends meet. So she worked in the school cafeteria. But all those episodes David instilled in me, hey, wait a minute, take a step back and realize how blessed and how lucky you are and how fortunate you are. And you know, David, and another part of my existence, a very important part of my existence, is my spiritual beliefs. I don't think life is random. I think that so much of what happens to us in our lives is preordained. And the good Lord that I pray to every day that I love that. I hope I live up to his teachings. We have to be realistic and recognize we don't all these things by ourselves, we have help. Yeah, how does God reaches? He reaches us through each other. So when you reach out to help somebody, you're doing God's work. And he's telling you to do it. But you're the instrument by which you get these things done.

David Novak 8:18 

Absolutely. And, you know, you talked about your dad really saying you couldn't get enough education. You know, I know you went to Bucknell and you got your MBA at night school. Tell us about your first job in business and what you learned about leadership from the people that you work for.

Ken Langone 8:35 

I had a job working for a company called retail credit company, who did background checks on people applying for insurance, mostly car insurance. It ended up becoming Equifax changed his name. Ironically, David, the retail credit the point of that company that I worked for 35 years later, I ended up buying. It became database technologies. But anyway, that Job was interesting. I came in I was going to go in the Navy. But that was in 1957. And I was supposed to go to OCS in Newport, Rhode Island. And the Navy had a change in policy. I had gotten married. And they only wanted light officers that supply officers. So they didn't want married guys on the ships. So I take this job and I go in for an interview and I go in for training and that is what they're doing. They're teaching you how to find dirt on people. So in other words, you're applying for car insurance. And I get the bug slip that you're applying for car insurance. And I go to your next door neighbor and I said, you know the Novak's next door? Yep. You ever hear them screaming at each other? Have you ever seen him coming home tipsy or have you seen from scrape the side of the car on the garage door? I mean, it was all negative. And after about a week of this, I got a little angry as women. Maybe these people are good, why don't we try and find the good in them as well as the bad. So I ended up deciding that I was only going to write good stories. about these people, whether they were true or not, didn't matter that was an incidental. So I started writing these low glowing reports about these people I'd never met. And I was so successful in writing these reports that they promoted me to do personnel work. So if somebody's going to hire somebody, they put a bug slip in to get out. So in this case, it was a guy that was going to go to work for Grumman. So I go to my my house cause and I go back and I write this report. And I say what a wonderful neighbor he is, and he does a great job. And he loves being around kids. And he coached Little League baseball, and he cleans out as neighbor's gutters. He's really a first class American citizen. And about two weeks later, I get called them by the boss. And he says to me, you know, this case you did here i Which one is that? Well, this guy that coaches Little League baseball, and he cleans out his neighbor's gutters, blah, blah, blah, yeah. What about him? He says, How do you do it from a wheelchair? That's what he's gonna go clean your desk up and get out of here. I got fired. I felt good because I gave the guy a break. All right. So I got my, my real first job was an equitable life. And the man that hired me, assigned me to work for somebody who didn't like me, because he didn't have any say in hiring. And he was determined he was gonna break my spirit. Nice thing gonna happen. He gave me a menial job. It was boring as all hell. And I made my mind up, you can find me but I'm not quitting. And I hung in there and worked out. I ended up going to the army. I got called into the Army because it was an obligation. Then I went back to the equitable for a short while. And then I said, I'm ready to go to Wall Street. And of course, the rest is history. But the thing that I take from that episode at the equitable was hanging in there. Life isn't always good. Life isn't always exciting. But hang in there, give it all your God, don't stop. You're gonna go on that trip. Make sure you go the whole route.

David Novak 11:54 

That's great. You know, and you've had a lot of excitement in your life. And one of the things that you did is, you became the co founder of the Home Depot. What was your role in getting that company started?

Ken Langone 12:06 

Well, it was simple. I owned the minority interest, or I control the minority interest in the company of the Bernie and author word for called Andy Dan. Bernie persuaded me to sell my minority interest. I told him if I sold it to this guy, he wanted me to sell it to the guy who's gonna fire. I sold it to the guy he fired him. Four months later, birdies in New York, helped me find a job and I said that we'll find a job, we're going to start a company, we've got no money as don't worry about that. I'll raise the money. So Bernie is a great merchant great retailer. Bernie had this great idea. I went out raise the money I put together the board of directors, these are all friends of mine. Bernie and author study in America decided we want to go to Atlanta. They put together the retail side of the business, I raised the money. Bernie and author and I were the executive committee of the board of directors until Bernie retired in 2003. But it was a dream come true. So what was my role? My role was cheerleader, raise the money put together the board of directors get a name. In fact, a mutual friend of ours, Marjorie Buckley, she and her husband were original investors. And we were having dinner with him one night, in the spring of 1978. And I was telling him we were having a terrible time, coming up with a name. She didn't want to live in Bethlehem. So we have to do they drove back to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. And the next morning, Buck called me up and said, Hey, Margie was thinking, why aren't you calling home depot? And I That's it. You knew when

David Novak 13:35 

you heard that was great. I want it's a fantastic David says it all you know, and everyone needs partners in life. What made the combination work between a Bernie Marcus who's the merchandiser and Arthur Blank, the finance guy and yourself? I mean, how did you guys make it all work together?

Ken Langone 13:53 

We all respected each other skills that we didn't have. Bernie was a brilliant merchant, brilliant. And Bernie was a great spiritual leader as well. Author numbers back when the author had was a CPA. He knew retail because his family owned a health supply company that was bought by the same company that bought handy dandy. It was a conglomerate. They worked well together. The three of us really were the founding fathers. It was Bernie's idea about the big box and all that stuff. And that's how it happened. When I think of my life. The greatest wisest decision I ever made, was married my wife, because through all of folly in my life, and all the insanity in my life and all the crazy ideas she'd ever won second, guess me she never once pushed back. All I knew is she'd be standing right next to me. And here we are. We're going to be married 66 years in September. You know, Wendy, as well as the biggest decision you'll ever make, and if it's the right one, God bless you.

David Novak 14:48 

Yeah. And Elaine is exactly what you say she is so special. You know, Ken, you're a huge believer in spending time with the frontline. Why do you think it's so important for a leader to get Get out there and press the flesh and be with the people who are really making it happen.

Ken Langone 15:05 

For one reason, David, they're more important than the success of the company that I am a person that works at a KFC or Taco Bell, that's at the counter that gives the customer a good experience that customers got to come back. Good product, great service, great attitude. I don't want to sound like you're doing it for selfish reasons. But each person needs to know they matter. Home Depot today is 550,000 Associates. Each person needs to know that they can make a difference. And more importantly, most of the time, they are the difference. And when you can tap in to a person's sense of self worth a person's desire to accomplish something. And you can say to them, I'm going to do it with you. You don't need to be any more than that. You turn them loose, and they're a force to be reckoned with.

David Novak 15:51 

Yeah, you know, I remember Ken when I took my chief operating officers and we went with you to Home Depot and you got out of the car and and we had about six to seven people with us and you picked up the trash when you saw it in the parking lot. You push the shopping cart back in the store you you dropped everything. And this is what impressed me the most when a special needs person came up to you and said I just Mr. Langone, I got to show you this display, you dropped us like we didn't even exist. But that guy was everything to you. How does that play into your leadership philosophy?

Ken Langone 16:25 

David, we're all in this thing together, I may have a little bit more financial success than the next guy, I may have had a little bit more luck than the next guy. I may have been endowed with more energy than the next guy. But at the end of the day, we're all the same. We need to let everybody know they matter day. But we needed a lot, David, you, you call me your mentor. There's an old expression who dares teach was never cease to learn. I've learned as much from you, David, as I might have taught you, I want you to know that you're a natural leader. But seriously, we needed to step out of our own bodies for a moment and say, Okay, I'm going into the body of that kid that's over there in the garden department, or that kid that's over there in the paint department. And I'm going to try and as much as I can visualize what he's going through right this minute. And when you use empathy, when you use a sense of compassion, and you let that person know that they really matter, they're precious to you. And more importantly, they're precious to what you're trying to accomplish. And you share that successful, you let them go home feeling they've accomplished something that they do you turn that person on that way, David, it's a force that can't be stopped.

David Novak 17:35 

You know, I couldn't agree with you more. And another thing that impressed me when when I was just watching you in action is that you met with the Home Depot associates there and you were talking to them, ask them what was working, what wasn't working. And then you put your phone number up on this whiteboard and you said, you know, call me if you ever need anything, or you want to know, something that you don't know or something that is not working. You just call me. Here's my number you call me? Why did you do that? It? Did anybody ever take you up on that? Oh, yeah, I used to get calls like crazy. What was the best idea you got from a call like that? Well, the best

Ken Langone 18:09 

idea I got was not so much a good idea as it was to instill in the kid the sense that he can make a difference. It was displaying plungers you know, these things which you don't have at three o'clock in the morning when the toilet stops up. out the next morning and by when you don't wake up in the morning and say let's go to Home Depot and buy a plunger. You know, it's an emergency item. And this kid said he had an idea of displaying them. And I said to him, why don't you do it? People Can I ask why can't you and that was on a Tuesday on the following Saturday, the store had sold out a plunges. It wasn't a big item was about a $5 item. But the point, David is you want to have an environment where you encourage people to take chances. And if it's an artist, legitimate mistakes, their careers aren't at risk. You want people to stick their neck out. Who knows where the next greatest ideas got to come from? Think David of the number of exciting products that we sold a Taco Bell KFC, or a Pizza Hut. They came out of some kids mine in some test kitchen, in San Diego or Dallas or wherever. But the kid had a sense of feeling like if it doesn't work, it's not the end of my life. Now on the other hand, there were sins that are unforgivable and are punishable by death, such as stealing, or cheating or lying or, you know, doing all the bad things you do in life being disrespectful of a customer, no matter how unreasonable I customize might be but the big thing, David is to me what came out of those calls. That I hope I encourage these kids to stick their neck out and take chances.

David Novak 19:44 

You know, speaking of taking chances, you were instrumental in making Frank Blake, the CEO of Home Depot and he was far from a conventional choice. He's a lawyer he didn't have any merchandising experience, retail experience to speak of, you know, set the stage for us. on that decision and and what did you see in Frank that told you that he was the right person for the job.

Ken Langone 20:06 

Frank was brought in by Bob Nardelli. Bob and Frank worked together at GE. Frank is two things. He's brilliant. And he's the most humble man I've ever met in my life. Absolutely the most humble man I've ever met in my life. Frank was one of nine Supreme Court Clerks. In the year he graduated from law school. He was torqued to a Blackman I forgot which one it was Stevens, John Paul Stevens. And Frank was brought into Home Depot, he didn't know a hammer from a saw he didn't know retail wholesale. Frank was a brainiac. And every time Frank made a presentation to the board, about an opportunity or a deal, whether it's a credit card, or whether it was an acquisition, I was always impressed with Frank's willingness to let somebody asked a very difficult and sometimes irritating question, and not lose his cool and be as matter of fact, and as helpful as he could be. When it became time that Home Depot and Bob should go separate ways, Frank had been made vice chairman at that point. But his work was largely staff type stuff. It was acquisitions, and it was studying for a new credit card, whether we want to city, corporate, American Express, all that cerebral kind of stuff. But the thing I always remembered about Frank, and all these opportunities I had to be with him was his humility, and his absolute, total, forthright ability to say, I don't know, but I'll get to the absence. And so when it came time, the Friday before the first of the year, this was a Friday, the last Friday of 2006. Gerald Ford died. So we were given an extra day off the first of January was a holiday. The second of January, was a day of mourning for Ford. We took advantage of that second day. So I had John Kline, Ben and Jonathan Bennett was the former head of Bell South. John was in Atlanta. I was in Florida, I called John John was on the executive committee of the board. I said, John, go see Frank Blake and see if he's offered the job. Will he take it? I didn't want to do it by phone. So John went to see him. And Frank said he wanted to think about, so John callback, said John Lee said he wants to think about what it will tell him he's got three hours. That's a lifetime in my life, they have three hours. That's the most generous thing I've ever done for anybody. Okay.

David Novak 22:25 

Why did he Why do you want to think about it? I mean, you know, most people just jump at that job.

Ken Langone 22:28 

biggest reason? I thought, because Frank's is kind of a guy, can I do the job? I think that's what he wanted to think about. He took it. And I want to tell you, it's the most profound business decision I have ever made in my life. At the board meeting, on the second of January, there was a groundswell of belief, well, let's make a MACD, he doesn't know retail, so that will that. You're gonna make a Mac and CEO, let's cut his legs off and say, Go run the company out, he'll have a better chance that way. I said, Look, we just proved we can get rid of a guy. If this guy doesn't work out, we'll say goodbye to him too. And that's how Frank got the job.

David Novak 23:04 

And Frank did a hell of a job to back to basics, you know, really went back and worked with the front line and built the whole spirit bad,

Ken Langone 23:11 

right, David, with all due respect, belongs in the pantheon of great CEOs along with you today. But my friend, I watched you, and I saw what you did with that company. And boy, you did a hell of a job.

David Novak 23:24 

Oh, Frank is something else. There's no, no question about that. And can you you're also the largest shareholder of Eli Lilly, what kind of I don't I

Ken Langone 23:32 

don't remember confirm that. You know, that's a big guess what Lilly have made? You know, they always wonder what do I own? I said, I own enough that my heartbeat when things are going good.

David Novak 23:41 

Okay, so you pay attention to Eli Lilly. And as you've paid attention to Eli Lilly, what kind of special leadership skills does it really take to run a pharma company today?

Ken Langone 23:52 

The one characteristic that prevails in all businesses? Is quality of leadership values. Do you live your values, you exemplify your values? Are you a hypocrite? The worst former leader of all, is the one who says Do as I say not as I do. So in the case of Lily, all the way through, the values are always attacked. You understand that research in health care, in many respects is serendipitous. And, interestingly enough, these drug companies go through dry spells, literally went through 20 years in the wilderness, like Moses wandering in the desert. Lily is right now got the hottest hand in the pharmaceutical industry. But you wouldn't catch that if you weren't there. I give you a for instance, David. I sold my company to Lilly in November 30 77. And from November of 77 until January of 2002. The stock went from 37 to 109. From 2002 to 2018. It did absolutely nothing. Now, I'm a patient investor, David, in all those years where it was fall. or money, taking those all into account, my lowly stock has compounded counting dividends at 14% a year, then get any better than that. So the thing you want to always ask yourself, are there value solid? Are they values that will bring the best out in the people that work with them? Is their mindset people work for them and people work with it. When you got a mindset of we instead of Iommi, things work better David. So I looked for things like this and right now the the fellow that's front of the company, David Rick's a spectacular, he's got a great humility attached himself is brilliant. He has a we and us can mentality. He's got a young team there things just like him, and the root results of proving out the merits of that.

David Novak 25:47 

You know, looking back, you also in your earlier days, you did the financing for Ross Perot and EDS. You know, in Ross Perot's legendary guy ran for president, the United States. What did you learn about leadership just watching him in action.

Ken Langone 26:04 

First of all, Ross hired kids, mostly out of state universities, not the Ivy League, not the elite schools in America, Kentucky State East Kentucky, inspired them to think they were capable of so much more than they thought they could do. He motivated them by solid values. It was military right to the blood inside his veins, he insisted that they dress a certain way ties, white shirts, low tassel loafers verified, one year I sent him for Christmas, a pair of tassel loafers. He cut the tassels off and had them frame and sent me the tassels.

David Novak 26:42 

That's a great story.

Ken Langone 26:43 

But Ross had this great capacity to elevate the expectations of people in themselves what they could. And you know, David, if we do nothing more than bring people to the realization that they're capable of so much more, being a better person, having solid values, these are all attributes, that if we can inspire them with people, when you unleash that force, there's no end to where it'll end up.

David Novak 27:18 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Ken Langone in just a minute. The Home Depot has been successful over the years because they had great founders who built a phenomenal business. And they followed it up with an incredible CEO, Frank Blake, who was the chairman and CEO of the Home Depot from 2007 to 2014. Now I had the opportunity to sit down with Frank and talk about why we should aim for excellence, not just growth.

Frank Blake 27:46 

So this is an odd thing to say. I think that people sometimes they reach too high for growth, they get too complicated, and how they're going to grow. If you define your goal as not growth, exactly. But you define your goal around excellence. And we are going to be brilliant at what we do. That is a compelling, fascinating, never ending journey.

David Novak 28:15 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Frank Blake, Episode 19 here on how leaders lead.

You know, can you you've also seen some bad characters and actions over the years and you have a great story about when you turn down a so called opportunity to invest with Bernie Madoff. And we all know his sad story. Tell us about that occasion. And what was it that made you say, Hey, I'm not going to team up with you.

Ken Langone 28:48 

It was 2008 and I mentioned earlier that I merged my company into ChoicePoint. And we sold to retail silver. And Hurley he was a lawyer this case, wrote a contract with Reed Elsevier, where you couldn't get a drop of water through it was that tight. Lehman went bankrupt on Monday on the Wednesday after that, Reed Elsevier tested the waters to see a force majeure prevail that wouldn't have to go through with the deal. And Edie made it clear to them there was no force majeure at all they were closing. So Friday night, that week, same week, we sold our company to readouts of a $4.3 billion in cash. As before the government got their cut, of course, and Bernie made a left got word to a friend of mine, that he'd like to meet me. And I wonder what that would Bernie Madoff want to meet me for? So anyway, as a courtesy to my friend, I said, Okay, I'll go meet him. So I took my appointment, Steve Holzman and we went to see him first of all, he showed us his art collection is which I can give a hoot less about I'm not artifacts out of a probably shows my lack of class, okay. Or, or they call it breeding robbery.

David Novak 29:52 

Me and plenty of class. So anyway,

Ken Langone 29:55 

epi shows us the Autoplex has been able to go to a dinner was about quarter to six He said, Well, I've found a situation that needs 500 million. And I said, Why would you give it to your existing clients? Well, it's not big enough for them. And all I'll do is make a lot of people unhappy. So I thought to myself, wait a minute, he's going to give me this phenomenal deal. He's never met me before tonight. And he's got all these people that have been as partners for years. And he's not going to give them any of them. How would I feel if I were them? David, the Golden Rule, do unto others, as you would have others do unto you. And by the way, David, I'm, I don't want to be on my soapbox. But as a kid have asked me, if you can only read one book in terms of becoming a better businessman. What would it be? I said in the Bible. There's a lot of lessons in the Bible that if you listen to them, ie the golden rule. So anyway, I thought about it. And I thought, wait a minute. Something's wrong here. And so we gracefully declined. And of course, within a month, he was out the window. That's how it happened, David.

David Novak 30:57 

So when you do invest in a company, Ken, what are the must haves you have to have before you invest?

Ken Langone 31:03 

The people. One of my tricks, David, if I'm hiring somebody for something, I love to have a meal with them. And I love to see how they treat the waiter. How they talk. You know why? Because that poor guy is working for tips that he can't fight back. I like to see the guy that I'm exploring possibilities with how he treats that person who's totally dependent on him at that moment. Because I've been away to David, I cut lawns. Christ, I did everything you couldn't live to make a book, except criminal stuff. And probably finally give it a chance. I want to give that a shot to only kidding. I'm only good. It's always the people. David, when I met you for the first time 9097 I'll never forget Jamie and I Jamie diamond and I both went out. And we bought $5 million worth of stock in what was then called for an OP named tricon. Global. You're right about that? Oh, is that horrible? And I met all the guys you had there. And I saw the passion and enthusiasm and the collegiality. You guys all shared together. It's always the people David, what made Walmart phenomenal, successful, bear in mind. Walmart had four little five and dimes in Bentonville, Arkansas. Kmart was king of the mountain, and Plymouth, Michigan. Kmart is no longer in existence. And Walmart today is the largest retailer in the world. People. There's no monopoly there. There was no intellectual property there. There was intellectual property and Sam Walton and his brother and all the people I had around him, but it was the ability to inspire people to do so much more than they thought they could do. So I have a simple equation that's purely and simply the people.

David Novak 32:45 

You know, can you're very humble about this, and you never really talked about it, but you happen to be one of the world's great philanthropists. You give away not only your money your time, you know, tell us the story of how you got involved in what is now NYU Langone health.

Ken Langone 33:02 

Edie Hurley's senior partner, Marty Lipton, Marty and I had this great relationship going back many years. And call me one day and said he wanted to come see me. And then he came in with the president of NYU, Jay Oliva. And they told me they were having a problem. And it really was a serious issue and they needed help. I thought we were talking about the Business School, which is where I went and I said, business school is doing great. On I want to talk about business school, we're talking about the medical school. I said, Do we have a medical I don't even know when why you had a medical school. Now you're talking about? Oh, yeah, we have a hospital and a medical school over here on first album. And as Marty, I don't know anything about it. He's a little pleased that he said, we really need help. So I took three months, and I studied, and it was essentially driven initially, out of my enormous respect, and admiration for Marty Lipton. And all he had done for me over the years, far more than a lawyer, he was confident, coach, a counselor, anything you can imagine what he was I was, so the more I got into it, and then a dear man that my wife used to work for us and medical Secretary John mountain, he was a surgeon. And he was like a second father to me. So I went to see John mountain. And he said, You know what? He said, there's a great surgeon at NYU by the name of Frank Spencer, is a good buddy of mine. Go and see him. So this is probably near the end of the three month period I was studying. I wanted to see Frank Spencer, I said Dr. Spencer, I said, they've asked me to take this job. He's the holiest place desperately needs leadership. I said, Well, I don't know if I can turn it around. He's I don't know if you do it or not. He's but I can tell you one thing, in spite of these horrible facilities we have here and in spite of the fact that we've got our back to the wall. The finest medicine in the world is practiced in these walls. I said, You kidding me? He said, No, sir. He said we got the finest doctors. We have the finest staff. We have finances. It's amazing. We hold hold together. And I'll tell you a little story about Frank Spencer. Frank Spencer, was really the father have open heart surgery, not the Bakey and not born odd thing for expensive price. Spencer was in the Navy in 1950 during the Korean War, and he was in one of those mash hospitals and the Surgeon General of the United States. edict did that have kids have brought him with badly wounded legs or arms, amputate the arm and leg. Don't try and save it because of the casualty that we owe the kid in one day to Frank's 10. And he looked at his kids legs, he said, I'm not gonna take that kid's legs off, I can save those legs. And he did. And when he got back, the Frank had violated the direct order. And they were going to court martial Frank. And so in the process of getting ready for the court martial, Frank said, Yes, I did defy the order. But I want you to know something. Every day I spend in the stockade will be a very cheap price for me to pay to notice a young man walk around on his own weights in his hometown, they dropped the charges and they gave Frank a metal. Thank God. Spencer was probably one of the finest man I ever knew on the crime, David, because the story, and I gotta tell you about the medical center. Elena and I both said, it's one of the great joys in all life to see what's happened. Do you know that I'm bragging now because you know, I'm a good brag. We're the number two medical school in America today.

David Novak 36:21 

I know. You know, and part of the your key to success is again, you pick talent, you understand leadership, and you forged an amazing relationship with the CEO of NYU Langone health, Bob Grossman, who I think is one of the best CEOs in the world. How have you made that partnership with someone as talented and as independent as Bob is work? Because he told me for a fact he said you call him every day.

Ken Langone 36:48 

We've had four calls today so far, I'm not exaggerating. We started at 630 this morning, thank God, He doesn't sleep well. And I don't sleep well. So we, we have a couple hours jump on the rest of the world.

David Novak 36:58 

By the way, it's 10 till 12. Everybody. David, let

Ken Langone 37:01 

me say this to you. This man is possessed of one of the most brilliant minds I've ever known in my life, attached to humility. That's Harry. He's a remarkable human being who doesn't realize his genius. And he's a leader. He leads by example. And he holds people accountable.

David Novak 37:19 

You know, here's this guy who's very independent, smart as hell, yet he still looks forward to those phone calls and talks about it that way. How did you build that relationship? I mean, it's one thing to have those calls now. But you know, how do you build the trust that could get that kind of partnership? We brought

Ken Langone 37:35 

him in to be the head of Radiology, radiology program was a mess. He turned it around. And that was enough for me to see how it brought people in and leadership and how it brought talent in that I wanted him to be the dean and I went down to John Sexton, the President, I said, Screw this search business. We got the guy right here. Let's make him Dean. Oh, no, no, no, we have to go to the Chronicle of Higher Education and all this other highfalutin stuff and run ads and so forth. So we went through a classic search, and foreign await Grossman was the guy. He almost blew it. When he told the search committee that if he couldn't land a deal with Siemens on technology, they shouldn't give him the job. And I'll tell you exactly what I told him. After the that interview, I was on the search committee, of course, got him outside. I said, Bob, I'm absolutely convinced that you're a Christian, that was adopted by a Jewish family because you can't be as stupid as you are, and be Jewish, too. So he's, what do you mean? What do you mean as the attorney over your career and your future to a bunch of guys in Germany, that don't even know you? Because you might not make a deal with someone like Downey, John Sexton? I think, John, I need a ball like, What do you mean a mulligan? That's what I need Bob to be brought back to the committee for a second. Look. We brought them back. We got the second look, we picked them. And the rest is history. David.

David Novak 38:55 

You know another thing that is amazing is you had the vision to pay the tuition for all of your med students at NYU Langone. When did that idea hit you and tell us a story about what happened when you made that announcement?

Ken Langone 39:08 

When Bob got elected Dean in 2007. I went to him that same day. And I said, All right, Bob, what's on your list? He's What do you mean? I thought you must have things you want to do is to Yes, he said when he was in a very poor family, is I'd love for one day for kids to come here tuition free. I said we're going to do it. Now. It took us 13 years to raise the money for the finally we did it. And now we have the Great Day One are announcing it's a big surprise. Nobody knows who's doing this. Some people do but it was quiet. The kids that showed up for their freshman class was sitting in their little white coats. It's called a white coat ceremony. And I got up and Elaine got up and we were at the podium. And we said as of this minute, every student at NYU Medical School comes free tuition. And it was scary. There was a complete silence in this big auditorium where the kids parents were, it's a big day for those kids, they go into medical school, all the faculty, and it was complete silence. It's like, like they've gotten an electrical shock. And now all of a sudden, this eruption of noise and cheering and screaming and crying. And as I looked out at the crowd, I said, the first time in my life, I felt rich. That's the first time David, my financial success hit me.

David Novak 40:31 

Wow, that is something and by the way, you got all kinds of personal notoriety, you and Elaine, you know, you were on 60 minutes. And I was so proud of you. It was just I was proud to know you as a leader and, and Elaine and what you were doing,

Ken Langone 40:45 

David, I want to say this to you. You have no idea how much I admire Wendy you for the way you conduct your lies and how you carry yourself. And the courage and conviction you have for doing the right thing, no matter how adverse The times are. For the both you. You're an inspiration David and who dares lead must also be willing to follow.

David Novak 41:04 

I remember you coming to speak to our young leaders when we had our big global meeting in Hawaii. And you told them that the most important thing in life and I wrote this down because I thought it was so simple, but very profound was a kind word, a thoughtful gesture, and enthusiasm for what you do. How do great phrases like that come to your mind more importantly, just the concept behind his brilliant, but just how did that come to you? Because I

Ken Langone 41:33 

thought back in my life, David, all the people, the guy that brought me into the securities industry, Jack Colin, I struggled the first six months because was bad times 1962. But he just made sure that he put his arm around me every once in a while he just made sure, can you you're going to really be great in this business. I'm telling you, you're going to be a huge home run. I wish I could be alive. He was about 75 that I wish to be alive to see it. He's you're going to be a winner and a stall like he can't believe. And my father, same thing. Mom, God bless mom. She used to wait for the eyes to work in the black. Friday nights not o'clock, the store was open. And she waved for me Friday night at 10 o'clock to give me supper. And she said well me at the kitchen table and she said and she'd be grabbing my hand or pinching my cheek or, and we needed a modal bit more in this country. We need to let each other know how much we respect each other and by each other and need each other. We're going exactly the opposite direction with tearing each other apart. Those thoughts and I believe that a climber a thoughtful gesture, and passion and enthusiasm for everything you're doing. Get excited. Feel good about getting a colonoscopy. Okay.

David Novak 42:44 

Maybe you may be pushing it a little there.

Ken Langone 42:46 

No, you know why? Early detection is the best protection you have against cancer. Yeah, no, that's right. Positive in everything. You know, I tell you the story. David about father had two sons. One kid was a pessimist. And the other kid was an optimist. And so one Christmas, he's got to experiment. So he goes and gets all these magnificent gifts hasn't beautifully wrapped, different sizes, different colors, puts them in one room. And then the other room, he puts a pile of horsemen over. He puts a pessimistic kid in a room with the gifts. And he puts the optimistic kid in the room of the hospital. And he waits it out. And he goes into where the kid is with the gifts. And he hasn't opened anything and your father's Charlie, what's the matter? What's the matter? Is on a day I don't like the way they're wrapping. I'm sure if I opened them I already have it. Or wouldn't fit. At least discuss it because down the hall to the kid with the hospital. This kid's throne is for shit all over whistling, laughing and a father. What are you doing? What are you doing? He's held there with Apollo hospital like this has got to be a pony around someplace. You decide what it is David.

David Novak 43:53 

I love it. Speaking of kind gestures, you know, when my wife Wendy had her stroke, and then she fell and broke her arm and she was in and out of the hospitals and it was really rough. And you knew I was down. You know, we're neighbors down in Florida and you call me up and you said Hey, David. I'd like to take you for a ride. And I'll pick you up. So you pick me up around three o'clock. I get in the car. And you take me to Dairy Queen to get an ice cream cone. It really made me feel a lot better. More importantly, the friendship that you exude it in the kind gesture that you made meant the world to me. Where'd you get the idea for an ice cream here I am with the great Ken Langone in the drive thru of Dairy Queen getting the ice cream.

Ken Langone 44:40 

What kid doesn't feel good about getting an ice cream cone. I can remember my dad a big treat for us. He buy a pint of Breyers chocolate, vanilla and strawberry ice cream and a quart of Hofmann's cream soda. And you'd make ice cream sundaes my brother and me. That was the biggest fight of the year for us. You You know, David, simple things sometimes are more impactful than complicated things. You know, a foreign Patek Phillipe watch, at that moment wouldn't matter very much to you, but an ice cream cone that you're tasting and feels pretty good. And I'm sitting here with a friend. And, you know, we just were looking at the brighter side of life just for that moment, but we did it.

David Novak 45:22 

It's a lifelong memory. It's a memory that I will always have. And it was a gesture I will always remember. And, you know, can when just listening to you? It seems like when you've done everything that you've done, it's easy for us mere mortals to think that you've always had it all. Tell us what areas are your skill set that you've had to develop along the way,

Ken Langone 45:44 

David, you got to be introspective. I was a wiseass kid that you can't believe I had a mouth on me it wouldn't quit. I would say I was sarcastic. I was an overall I was I was a lot of things. As a kid growing up, I wasn't shy, that's for sure I never was, I made my mind up, I must have been about 10 or 11 or 12 years old, that I wanted people to like me. And I watched my mother and father to very humble people, lack of education. And I watched how people gravitated towards them. Mom could take a bowl of spaghetti and meatballs and turn it into a feast for people of enormous wealth. And she did it more than not so much by the spaghetti of the source of the meatballs, but how she did it, and the attitudes what she did. You know, you military is probably the most wonderful human characteristic of all, if I could only be one thing, I'd say, God, I'm not humbled. David, I want you I want to be I know I'm good. Okay, so that means I can't be humble. So what I'm saying, David is, when we all recognize we need each other. And we can do more for each other by needing each other and doing things for each other. When we recognize all of that, David, that's what it's all about. Unless we're so arrogant, that we don't believe we can learn from anybody else. If you leave your eyes and your mind open to watching other people, you'd be amazed at how much better a person you'll be by emulating that maybe everything but some of the things they do.

David Novak 47:15 

And that's something that you've developed and grown over the years as you've matured.

Ken Langone 47:20 

Yeah, I'm still childish.

David Novak 47:24 

You know, the other thing you are again, as you've mentioned this, you're you're very spiritual man. And, you know, I know you go to Mass every day, you know, you light candles for people that you know, need God's help. And that's all of us. And I know you're in a Bible study, we're in a Bible study together in Florida. And it's one of the great privileges I have my life is to be in that Bible study and be able to share it with you and others. But what do you get out of going to Bible study with a group of men,

Ken Langone 47:52 

the one thing I prayed for that I get is utility that has a higher power that makes me minuscule relative to that force. And that force is for good. I believe that forces for good, I believe, David, that in that group we have which I cherish. I think it's a wonderful group. The sharing we do, and the insights we draw from each other about readings and the Bible makes me better understand the whole purpose of religion and the whole purpose of life itself. And David, when you sit in a room with men like yourself, and you share with each other you say, Hey, you don't want to I just got something. You know, we live great lives. Look, look at your home, look at my home, David, look at the lives we live, look at the clubs, we belong, look at all the things that have happened to us. Not everybody has a good fortune. There's a lot of people right now that you and I know, that are worried about being able to pay the light bill next week. Some of the caddies, maybe the guy that works in the supermarket guy that works at Home Depot, or the guy that works at yum brands, wherever they are the GAO. And I think our obligation where we can is to seek out those people. Well, we can bring just a little sunshine into their lives. That wouldn't be there without us.

David Novak 49:04 

That's all right. You know, Ken has been so much fun talking about leadership and getting your thoughts but I also have a lot of fun doing a lightning round, you know, where I ask you some quick questions and you give me a quick response back. So are you ready for this? Yeah. Okay. The three words that best describe you

Ken Langone 49:21 

brash, loud, and tough.

David Novak 49:26 

If you could be one person beside yourself for a day, who would it be and why?

Ken Langone 49:32 

Ooh, a collect uh, well, I wouldn't say one of the all those people's trades who have humility. I wish I had David, what's your biggest pet peeve? People who don't realize they do anything by themselves? David, we all need each other.

David Novak 49:46 

What was the last home improvement project you took on?

Ken Langone 49:51 

cleaning my closet.

David Novak 49:55 

Your favorite vacation spot?

Ken Langone 49:58 

Sandy Lake Sandy law Ain't three hours away. You can go there for five days.

David Novak 50:03 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Ken Langone 50:06 

I don't think a lot of people know how spiritual I am.

David Novak 50:09 

The best day you've ever had.

Ken Langone 50:12 

There are metal aid.

David Novak 50:15 

That is a good answer. I'm going to tell you something that very few people would know about you. Is that you're a phenomenal cook. You got your mom's meatball recipe, I think, okay, which is unbelievable. And you've had us over winning over for Thanksgiving. And you made the turkey.

Ken Langone 50:31 

I made everything. What do you you made the oven? That's easy, you know? Yeah, it

David Novak 50:36 

was a very good dinner. I you know, rivaled my mother's not quite as good but pretty good. Nothing like mom's you know, you seem to know everybody can you know everybody in the world knows you for sure. And but there are two people that you talk about a lot. One is the great astronaut Frank Borman. What has he taught you? I know that you basically think of him every day.

Ken Langone 50:58 

Frank's wife suffered Alzheimer's for more than 12 years, trying want to feed her three times a day for 12 years. And one in every afternoon, the mid afternoon. They played games, these little children's games, so the people with Alzheimer's. He never missed one of those sessions. Frank surrendered his whole life. To Susan these last 12 years. She just died last year. Frank is the most selfless human being I've ever met in my life.

David Novak 51:24 

And well, the other one I wanted to ask you about as you know, the private most renowned investor in the world today is Stanley Druckenmiller.

Ken Langone 51:31 

He like one of my kids, is one of the most humble guys I've ever known in my life. Every day I talked to him, he wants to cut his throat because he's not doing better today than he did yesterday. And his capacity for philanthropy is staggering David, the amount of money that he and his wife give away to charity. You can't believe single handedly, he has backed Harlem Children's Zone, which is today the premier program for minorities in America, in education and if school programs and it's going nationwide. Now, let me tell you what I am a scaling. When I'm pissed off at him. He's my oldest son. One on in love with me. He's my youngest brother.

David Novak 52:15 

And can you know it's obvious you attack life like no other you attack it? 24/7? What are you most excited about going forward?

Ken Langone 52:23 

promise of America. I think America's best days are ahead of big time. I'd like to be alive another 186 years, because what's going to happen in America is gonna blow the world away. We're the greatest nation on Earth, David, they'll never be another America. We go through these periods of self deprecation and screaming and complaining. We've managed to get through them. When we raise the elevation, we elevate ourselves to levels far beyond where we were before. We are the greatest experiment on Earth ever. Don't sell America short. So what am I most excited about? Living in America and being an American? That's what I'm excited about?

David Novak 52:59 

Ken, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation with me. And more importantly, I want to thank you for just the impact that you've had not only in my life, but my wife's life, you have been an amazing, amazing support. And you're somebody that I admire so much. And, you know, years ago, Andy Pearson, our mutual friend, he passed I mentioned he was 80. I miss him too. And, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do without Andy Pearson. And one of the things that I've been able to do is I've been able to have Ken Langone. And you have been just a tremendous resource to me, and I appreciate you very much, my friend.

Ken Langone 53:38 

And the same with you, David, David, Mamet, I said, who does teach us never cease to learn? I learned as much from you, David, as you learned from me. And I think in the process, we both become better people.

David Novak 53:49 

Well, thank you very much. Can God bless you?

Let me tell you something, the kid is an absolute original. There's nobody like him on the planet. And didn't he just love that phony joke? You know, I've always felt that leadership is a privilege. And it's important to get behind the people you lead and love. And Ken showed us the power of doing just that. So this week, here's something you can do to apply what you've learned in this episode. I bet there's someone on your team who's going through a hard time, maybe at work or maybe even at home. And what I want you to do is simple. Just show up for them. Be there. It could be writing an encouraging note to leave on their desk, or like candid taking somebody out and give them an ice cream cone at Dairy Queen. When you show up for your team. When you show up for people you love. It shows them how much you appreciate and value them. So do you want to know how leaders lead What we learned today is that great leaders show up for the people they lead in love. All right, coming up next week on how leaders lead is Jason Kelly, the CEO of gingko Bioworks.

Jason Kelly 55:12 

I think you have to be exposed to a lot of people that aren't just like from your little bubble to be good at storytelling. There is a certain story I can tell to my PhD friends from MIT that has like every little bit min bop exactly right. If I only hang out with those people, I don't actually know how to tell a story that a wider set of people can understand.

David Novak 55:35 

So be sure to come back next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. I'll see you

Ken Langone 55:57 

next week.