David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Oscar Munoz, the former CEO and chairman of United Airlines. Now, Oscar led United Airlines through a massive turnaround. And you're going to love hearing how it happened. Because boy, Oscar has a ton of insight and great stories. When you hear the story of this turnaround. And what Oscar did. It's clear. As a leader, you got to do more than just run smart strategy and solve technical problems. The real challenge is how do you do all that, while also reaching the hearts of the people you lead? That was the driving force of the turnaround at United and his true for whatever challenges you're facing to, to make big things happen, you need to appeal to both the mind and the heart. And Oscar does both beautifully. So let's get into this great conversation with my friend and soon to be yours, Oscar Munoz.

Oscar one of the things I love about your book is you really learn a lot about the airline industry. And and you say that if you if you like solving puzzles, there's nothing more fascinating than the airline business. Explain what you mean by that.

Oscar Munoz 1:33 

I think most of us who fly a lot, which is everyone, we appreciate the time you know being on time and having a nice meal and having a clean seat. You most people don't quite comprehend the level of complexity. It's a very complicated world and dance of choreography of all the the pilots and the flight attendants and the meals and the gates, you're coming into flying internationally to, you know, the time I was there, 70 plus countries 180 million customers a year. It's just the a complicated logistical effort that is a coupling with the need to have a human level of interaction that you're comfortable with to drinking a cup of coffee that you enjoy. And so the puzzle is, how do you get all of that together? How do you put you know the business end of it, manage the costs, take care of humans deal with all the regulatory and compliance issues. And again, remaining true to the friendly skies moniker that United has been so proud to fly for so many years.

David Novak 2:36 

And you have technology being such a big issue that you got to be all over too. And you also say there's there's no grander stage than the airport? What do you mean by that?

Oscar Munoz 2:45 

You've written books, then sometimes you take a little poetic license and a lot of TV shows movies are all there's always a grand setting, either the finale of diehard or are many of their romantic love stories about the parting of ways. And it's just a grand stage, because it connotes so much more than right, it's a moving along that separation, or reunion, there's just so much emotion tied to it. And I also find that our customers, right, they fly a lot. So it's very personal to them. And the concept of of the emotion that you have towards your favorite airline or your least favorite airline is very high. And there's no conversation, I can go anywhere that somebody doesn't learn what you do, or what you've done, that inevitably there isn't something, let me tell you about this one flight or this one a period of time. So there's a lot of a lot of human emotion tied into this business. So the puzzle piece is trying to manage all of those constituents. And you mentioned technology, which is a whole chapter on itself. But equally as important.

David Novak 3:41 

Now I understand you always try to be the last person to board a flight, what was your rationale for that?

Oscar Munoz 3:49 

Simple and the world has changed and everybody's watching. And the the optics of the leader of a corporation, getting in front of everyone else getting seated first just wasn't my style or my brand. And frankly, someone always took my carry on on so I would stick around and talk to people, both customers, and then walk on the on the plane at the last second it was just a way of being able to say hello, do a lot of different people engage with the pilots engage with apply attendance, see customers as I was sitting down or outside, it was just something that was important for me to not be be perceived as that Imperial person that needs special treatment or, or I don't I didn't travel with anyone, necessarily. And so that was important to me. You know,

David Novak 4:32 

when you become CEO, you know, people always want to protect you and shield you and do things for you and make sure that no one does this or no one does that. You know, how did you break that down? So people really knew hey, I want to be a human being like everybody else.

Oscar Munoz 4:45 

Well, a funny story. I initially came in, you know, it's like no, I'll rent a car. You know, at the airport, my first day of the work and you know where do I park and and a very person close to me who became my first Chief of Staff KGB pulled me aside in a room one day, she says, You know what, knock it off, we're just trying to help you. And by you trying to be whatever you're trying to be like a normal human being is killing us just go with it, alright, we're gonna have a car for you are gonna do these things, you need to stick to the schedule and quit making it hard for us. And so there's a balance there where you do have to get to a lot of places. And a lot of times, a lot of people are waiting for you. And you have to acknowledge that just part of the gig. And so I'll try to balance the Imperial nature with just not being not being counterproductive to people's work and effort is how I begin to balance that,

David Novak 5:34 

you know, I'm gonna go deep on on the United Airlines turn around that you orchestrated and how you leave it first. Understand you you were born in Mexico, you you're the oldest of nine siblings. And I understand growing up, you had first and second lunch shifts, because he couldn't fit everyone around the same table. Is this where you earned your reputation for being great at conflict? Resolution? Because I know you had a great reputation work with unions?

Oscar Munoz 6:06 

Well, you know, we are all parts of people we've met along the way I think, and and certainly my upbringing, with eight brothers and sisters. certainly had a lot to do with that. Yeah, the first and second lunch was a funny thing. In addition, when mom and dad came home from the grocery store, all the neighborhood kids had to come and help with the bags, because there was multiple bags of groceries that we had to do and, and so yeah, it's, you know, I think, I think my conflict resolution to be just a tad serious, came from my my heritage and my upbringing. I grew up predominantly with my maternal grandmother, for many years, while I was living in Mexico before I came to the United States. And we traveled to many homes, she didn't have her own home, but she was never homeless, you know, the concept of Familia and in Spanish is a more deeply resonant word. And so we always had a place to stay, and just, you know, going around the country with her for so long, and my memories of, you know, not feeling unsafe, I always had or Carson's hand, you know, just, you know, as I was walking on Dusty Trails, so to speak, and she was always there and, and how she managed things she never had a bad word for anyone was always upbeat was always friendly, and the old, that's your formative years, and you'll learn that that's an important part. And so I've carried that over into many of the contentious issues you have in business, of course, difficult decisions you have, I often find that truly listening to both sides of the story, inevitably, somebody's facts are incorrect, or somebody's premise is not entirely on point. And if you can begin to fix and Nick at those things, you began to solve contentious problems. So I credit that to my mother and my heritage, and a lot to you know, the experience of the people I've met along the way.

David Novak 7:55 

You're a leader who seems to appreciate very direct feedback, and you just are very straightforward and honest. And was there a particular bit of coaching you got earlier on in your career that was really instrumental for you? Because I'm sure you were a high flyer coming up?

Oscar Munoz 8:10 

Yeah, no, that was, it's been several as I think it's an important part of, of, I have a friend who's always said that sharing is caring. And I've always found that to be so true. Because if somebody truly cares, they will share with you. And as you drive them to a point where they don't care, they'll just let you go on your way. I think probably the most, the most interesting story to your question was, when I had moved from, I had been a young hotshot at Pepsi, and at a relatively young age, moved to coke at probably skipping a couple levels of the normal, you know, sort of career, a hierarchy. So I was feeling pretty good about myself, and walked into this new environment and, and Coke and Pepsi cultures are, are probably as different as the city of New York and the city of Atlanta. Right? Just you can fall Have you everyone's travelled to both and one's more of a genteel southern culture. New York is, of course, New York. And I think the culture at both companies were that way. So I came from this high charging high flying up or out, you know, constantly looking around to see who might be, you know, looking out for like, looking for your job and such, to this much more quiet, genteel and in generally older community. And so again, as a young person, I think I was 26. At the time, I learned the, the the hard lesson, and you can never judge a book by its cover, because I saw people that were much more senior than I am. And I immediately assumed, gosh, you know, this is places full of ancient dinosaurs or whatever term you might want to use. And my boss back to your question at my sort of mid year performance review of something, you know, he does all that stuff. And he's telling me all these great things about the work we're doing. And then he did this magical thing. He took the HR document, folds it and pushes to the side. I remember this vividly. And he says, now if I could ask her just as friends share a couple of things. So I'm thinking yeah, you Probably wants me to date his daughter or something kind of, I'm thinking that's the way my thinking was instead. And he said magic, the magic words that I remember this vividly. Remember all of these things. He said, You know, you're really good at what you do. And, and if there's, if there's one bit of feedback I would give you, he said, You're not yet as good as you think you are. And I'm like, Wait, that didn't sound like either dating your daughter or a compliment. And in clearly what he said is I was way ahead of myself, right? That the today's term of slow your roll, listen and learn, which is a common premise in the book, and all came from that a little bit of a conversation, because while he said he was yeah, you're really good at what you do, just slow down. And let others catch up with you learn to involve others in the decisions that you make. And back to the judging a book by its cover. The people, you know, the one woman in particular that I remember vividly, she kind of looked like my grandmother. And now as you got to listen to her understand her background, she was a Harvard MBA, not 2425 years before, but a Harvard MBA, nonetheless, with all the intellect and all the drive and all the experience, which I think is the thing that I teach, and you probably do the same thing, David, with people younger, not because we're experienced does lend a lot to us. And one of the things that you learn is that experience is valuable. And if you just slow down a little bit, and listen to the people above you who are watching who do care about you and want to share, it's a really meaningful point. So that that comment, you're not yet as good as you think you are. I felt like a spear coming across the field, the the office just impaling me. Because I was angry. I went through all those seven stages of grief and all this kind of, you know, I'm doing this, but it helped me immensely, began to appreciate and genuinely listen to the people around me.

David Novak 11:44 

Yeah, it makes sense. And let me ask you, what's a one on one session, like with Oscar Munoz, when you're giving someone some coaching?

Oscar Munoz 11:52 

I have found that waiting for that particular timeframe, when you're have that this tense, stroke situation, right? We're doing reviews, and I gotta tell you how you're doing is usually not the best time to give any unless it's great advice. Hey, things are going great. David, just as we've talked all along the way, you're hitting on these marks, I see this. And then Oh, that's great. Keep it up. That's an easy one. But I find that the first time you have to have a tough conversation with somebody in that heightened pressure of a performance review is, is it doesn't work as much because it it implies my performance, my performance measurement, what goes in my records, potentially, my compensation are going to be affected by that. And there's a degree of anger and resentment, that why the hell are you just telling me that now you have all those things. So I tried to talk to people on a fairly regular basis, every time I observed something that maybe isn't flowing the right way. And so to kind of get a basis for a conversation about something that might be a good development, probably my most famous structure when I do have a meaningful conversation, because you find that people do not get good feedback throughout the course of their career. And especially when you get to be a CEO and those higher levels. A lot of your senior folks have gotten to where they are on their merits and their performance. But I don't know that if everyone's ever touched on the more personal nature of performance, how you act, how you make others feel, is a lot of my my phrase, it's like, Hey, you're you're incredibly smart, and you know where you're headed, but you're leaving everyone behind. So being right does not mean everything's gonna get done. So phrases like that, and working with folks. And and when I have those conversations, whatever they might be, here's how you emote. Here's what you're showing your face, here's your body language, all those little personal things. You don't appear open, I would say maybe David and and then of course, there's there's kind of a pushback from the individual. And I always say, you know, listen, go home, talk to your loved one, just go home and just hey, this is crazy new guy at work. And he pulled me aside, he told me all this crap about this or that, and just watch your loved one and how they react. And David to this day, I've had that conversation. Hundreds of times, probably, I've never had one person come back and say, Yeah, my spouse disagrees with you. It's always Liz kind of sheepish. Yeah, you know, I talked to my wife, and she kind of said, and I think that's the most meaningful right to share things that you observe, in your opinion, have them double check with someone else that's closer to them. And it's amazing what that happens. And, and then there's of course, 100 other tactics that you know, so well. But I think that level of human interaction that's personal, to let someone know that you genuinely care about them, which is why your sharing is an important thing. And I don't think the performance review is a good time to do that.

David Novak 14:39 

Yeah, yeah. That's performance reviews. A surprise. That's that's a problem. No question about that. You know, I know you were president of CSX great railroad company and you were slated to be the next CEO there. Tell us how you made the decision to go to United I always like to get inside of the heads of of how leaders really make these big career shifts.

Oscar Munoz 15:00 

What I know about myself is that I bridge the gaps between people always been able to do that. I always do it with logic and reasoning, I always do it if I need to with a little force. But mostly, I will listen to you and hear and understand our journey at CSX. For the time I was there, which was a long time and ascended from CFO to eventually CEO, and then President, I learned a lot about that company, I knew what the future held, we had turned it around, we were 7 billion market cap company, when I started, probably got over close to 60 billion by the time I left, so we had had a lot of success. Knowing myself, what I have been able to do with the team at CSX, was bring all that together, the next few years as CEO, we're going to be more of the same. And so it's just really planning for my succession with a great team that we had built behind us. Again, nothing wrong with that I earned that thing. But then you're then you got this, this option, right, of a company that's broken, disenfranchised, disengaged, disillusioned employees, an industry that I know a little bit about, but not a lot. And I was a conversation with myself, it's like, you know, what you do best? You know, the people there, you know, you can bridge a lot of those gaps. And do you have the energy and desire to have another turnaround in your career, and it wasn't the title because the title was coming one way or the other. It wasn't money or adulation, because frankly, the airline industry pays less than what we're able to earn in a company that has such high margins, and high equity value. But it became about my abilities, knowledge or contribution, knowing what I could do. And a desire to lead my own, rather than be part of a team was the concept. Now, it's infinitely more complicated than that, David. And there's a lot of decisions, because there's the people that brought you to the first company, and how do you deal with interact with them, they trusted you and giving you these opportunities. And now you're in essence, turning your back on them. And then of course, the dread and trepidation of walking into another business that you don't know a lot about. And then, of course, all the things that happened subsequently that while we're not easy, and we went through a lot of issues, but I've got, again, the leadership aspects, if you know who you are, and what you know, you can do well, you're going to be successful. Because as good and bad as the things went at United, the thing, my special skill in bridging the gaps between all these large voids, inevitably proved to be a little bit of the secret sauce. You were

David Novak 17:23 

on the board of United. So you at least had a little bit of information about what the company was like you had a good sense there was a transportation industry a different kind, obviously, than railroad. So that was something that gave you some, some some knowledge expertise to take into the role. But you touched on it a little bit. What did you inherit in? 2015? You know, I, you know, I've learned it was called dis United Airlines or divided airlines or you know, but anything then united? Tell us tell us what you walked into

Oscar Munoz 17:54 

anything but united. I think my first my first interview was with the Wall Street Journal. And they asked me the same question. And I was very direct. And Frank, it's like, you know, I find that our workforce is disengaged, disenfranchised and disillusioned. And I am, I am embarrassed to say that as a board member, I did not see this early on, and we should have, and the task at hand is going to be a formidable one. And that's what I learned. And that's what I said, and, and so promptly, made the decision that I needed to learn a lot more, I think, again, leadership is lessons or when you have a turnaround situation, it means that a lot of things are broken. Which of those many things that are broken, you do first is the platform for the eventual success and change that you have to do. So how do you find that one thing, and by the way, there's no shortage of people telling you what's wrong. But you know, you have to figure out for yourself and, and my decision based on my, my heritage, my upbringing, my experience, and was I need to get to the front lines, and I need to hear from them what they think is circuitous and as mixed. And as broad a conversations I'm going to have across the system, I'm going to get a sense of something. I don't know what that is. But give me some time. And I'm going to go figure that out. So it's what I said, of course, the street reacted, like, What the hell does that mean? Right? That's like, sounds expensive, sounds time consuming. Customer like, hey, what about us, and so on. And so that was the first. That's the things that I found and then my initial instinct on how to fix it.

David Novak 19:24 

So you went on this listing tour. And you wanted to find that first right thing to go after? How did you define that? When you did the listening? What was your net impression that you add to that this was going to be the primary focus,

Oscar Munoz 19:39 

and my initial sort of tour of different places. You could almost again, part of listening, being a good listener, and having an intuitive sense about people around you is I could feel people as they smiled and took pictures or congratulated me that there was something deeper behind there. There was a desire to speak and almost a help me kind of content there was, there's just something that I couldn't, that I couldn't tell. And so that was my instinct, that was my first instinct to go out there. So there was no process that just put me out there every moment of every day, nighttime, and we worked 24 by seven. And so we went to I went to them in the places they work. And the process was simply just asking, you know, hey, tell me about, you know, just getting there. It's a large room of, of maintenance folks to, you know, two flight attendants walking by two gate agents, we know in the in the rest area, it was just a function of trying to get a sense of what they were thinking, and what they were feeling and what was broken. And I wish I could tell you that in that conversation, I gleaned it all, it actually confused me even more, because there were so so many things that were broken. And a couple of weeks into this listening to our I was beginning to worry, it's like, you know, I'm getting a lot but I'm not getting a common thread or that that I not that I could discern. And it took what is probably a seminal moment. And the United turnaround story is on a flight. me asking a flight attendant that was there just walking up to her, Amy, Sue is her name and asking her, you know, just hey, I'm Oscar and I'm just kind of walking around trying to get a sense and her emotion, her, or strong desire to not speak to me was evident. But as I kind of began to walk away, and I touched her gently, she broke down and said, you know, what are magic words inside of United, she says Oscar, I'm just tired of always having to say, I'm sorry. And, and what that means is, you know, she had to every day, I'm sorry, your coffee sucks. I'm sorry, we're late. I'm sorry. We can't, you know, see you next year. Oh, and, and as a human being constantly having to apologize for things and policies and procedures and processes that you have nothing to do with. And having that be your everyday existence. Having no input or value be makes you become me, that's where the term disengaged, disenfranchised and disillusioned came from. It's like, it's, it's almost hopeless, I'm just going to come and do my work. And I've lost and when you have a brand, like the friendly skies, and you want to be customer centric, and you want to do the wonderful smiley face, things that we want to do, you're not going to be able to do that with the with a work group that is in that stage. And that was my on my learning of that conversation. Now, it would take time for me to convince my senior leaders, my board, and inevitably investors that that was what we're going to do first, which was in essence, regain the trust of our employees before we could do anything else. Yeah, that's

David Novak 22:32 

a really simple concept that's very hard to do. In my business, I had I've worked with unions and franchisees, and sometimes the personal attacks, when you're out on this listening tour can be, you know, pretty tough, you know, tell us about one of yours. And how did you handle it?

Oscar Munoz 22:51 

There was many there was, there's the ones that are one on one when our general counsel was with me, and somebody just jumped out of his seat looming large over me. And we thought that was going to result in some physical activity that did not, but probably the most one, that one that I tell is going into a Houston hangar where we repair aircraft. So a very large workspace, mechanics are a rare breed unto themselves. You know, they know they repair airplanes, and they know how to do that. And they're very professional at that process. But at that time, we hadn't solved their contract. And so they hadn't been paid up to industry standards. So you can imagine that emotion. In addition, work rolls, we still had the merger with United repaired aircraft in one way and content over repetitive in a different way, and trying to sync those things, all of that. So everything was and these are sold to the earth people like give me a plane, give me the parts, give me the time to fix it, and I'll fix your airplane, you do none of those things, you're going to have trouble. So I walk into this room. And again, it's one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning. And it's a large group is because aircrafts get repaired overnight, not during the day. So it's the largest work group. And so an angry crowd for sure, and are all not wanting to be gathered to have some punk come in, that they don't know who I am. They didn't know I don't come from the industry. And although they have some inkling from my previous unions, that he's not that much of a jerk sort of backdrop, but standing there trying to talk with them while they're all yelling and screaming. Like get outta here. You get to fire all the industrial just the very emotional and letting me get out of the system. Me dropping the crummy little mic that we had jumping on a picnic table with, you know, a few 100 people surrounding me and just screaming you know, in order to talk and confronting the conversation, particularly the question, yeah, Bs. We've heard all this stuff before. And my pushback was you have the CEO of the Corporation has been here at two o'clock in the morning, top of a picnic table at this hangar asking you a very simple question. How can I help? What can I do and But you're screaming and yell at me is an actionable fire everyone, get away, get out of here go what, you know, go home, whatever, that none of that is actionable. And so there was a particular leader Arne is his name that I have come to know over the year, who was one of the more vocal. And we ended up being a one on one engagement went back and forth for a probably an uncomfortable amount of time for others, but not for me, because I knew you had to break through with this stuff and turning tail and running our and letting them win in that it wasn't even a win lose situation. It was I need to hear from you give me some things. And that proved to be very pivotal. Because as we solve that particular union, Arnie and some of his folks were, were there who would say in the room when you're not there. I like this guy. He's actually different. He does want to work and listen, we can trust him. And again, in these podcasts, I hear lots of things. And one of the things I've heard recently is that trust travels at the at the speed of vulnerability. So to your question, standing there, listening and taking it all in. And knowing that I don't know what they're talking about necessary, but I'm willing to help was a sense of vulnerability that they eventually grew to be a level of trust and ability to work together. And that was a big deal, why we solve some of our union contracts in those early days, a people first

David Novak 26:11 

rebuild the trust with employees mandate. You know, that sounds great. But it sounds a little soft. That sounds a little fluffy. You know, how did you go about, first of all, just getting alignment with your senior team so that you knew that they were going to be committed? And all in on this strategy? Was there a lot of pushback

Oscar Munoz 26:30 

there was, you know, it was foreign, right? They all had their ideas of what we should be fixed first. And again, now there's no shortage of things to be fixed, I had a little health aspect that I had to step away for a little bit. But when I came back, right, when I came back, when the first things we did was gather that thing, and continue the project that I was on, I was gonna go Listen, come back, gather team, share my information and data, get everybody involved. And then let us collectively determine what our first big thing where it was going to be. And so there was a lot of conversation, a lot of consternation about the things that we should do and a lot of disagreement. But, you know, in a world where magic happens on a day where I get a call from my doctors that there's a new heart waiting for me, it is the kind of the final day where we're determining kind of what our next big step is. And since I didn't have to be at the hospital to later that afternoon, I went to our off site, hotel. And that morning, as a group, there was a unanimous vote that after all, the the concept of regaining the trust of our employees was going to be the first collective mission. And it was important for me to get that done, because I did not know what would happen to me, obviously, going in for a heart transplant, and all those little things. And, and that's how that came about. So yeah, it took a lot of effort. It didn't take it wasn't a coercion. It wasn't me being the CEO said you have to do it this way. It was recognizing the value and telling them that room and having them call us on what was an important first step. And again, that's how United's turned around, got started.

David Novak 28:08 

Now you listen to this podcast, so you know how much I love learning about leadership from some of the world's greatest leaders, we make it a priority to break down the insights from our guests into practical steps so you can apply what you learned from our episodes into your own leadership style. A lot of times though, it can be easy to listen to an episode and forget what you learned. That is exactly why I created the weekly leadership plan. Every Sunday, I send out a weekly leadership plan that lays out in three simple steps, the key learnings from that week's podcast, it only takes about five minutes to read. And it gives you practical steps you can apply to your leadership process for that week, like everything we do at how leaders lead. It's completely free. And you can sign up for it at how leaders lead.com Right now, this weekly leadership plan is a great way to prepare for your week, each Sunday evening. And I hope you'll sign up today at how leaders lead.com/plan

One of the big problems that you had at United is that the company seemed to try to you know, save its way to success, you know, reduce the number of routes, you know, get smaller, so you could be more efficient, et cetera, et cetera. How did you instill a growth mindset?

Oscar Munoz 29:34 

Everything I've ever done, every career I've been off has been about growth. If you look at the CSX history, initially least when I arrived, it was a big cost issue. It was also it was a growth issue, but at any cost. You know, nobody said he should grow at any cost stepper. You know, you do need to grow but you need to be mindful of your margins. So, businesses, as you know, do not thrive on being static. So growth is key. The problem with being that being the solution at United at that time is we weren't ready for it. We had gone through all these cost saving initiatives that had crippled people, while we didn't have the customer mindset to go to all these places. And so we needed start with the trust first. But the growth thing came shortly thereafter, we began to hire the right people, for the for the team, the United, that global network has always been defined as one of the more complex puzzles that need to be solved. And anybody that can solve that puzzle is really going to be you know, it's really going to make it work. And so we need to, we needed to set out and the solution to that puzzle was growth, we had an amazing level of capacity to fly to so many places, we didn't have the aircraft, we didn't have that the team customer spirit, and we didn't really have the money or the conviction internally, and we didn't have the support of Wall Street growth in our industry is verboten because too much capacity brings down price. And that's the endless history of this airline, we were able to build a strategy and put it into place where we not only grew, but we grew at ridiculous levels beyond what norms are in that company, while growing our margins. And when we first announced that we were on the floor of the stock exchange, and I was on TV, and our stock dropped 15% That day when we announced this, this growth plan, and oh my god, oh, my God. And as I tend to be somewhat flippant, sometimes, because we had strong conviction about our strategy. And I said, Yeah, I know what, it has dropped a lot, it's probably a really good buying opportunity. And by November of that year, our stock had increased dramatically. We delivered that through your plan a year early. And so again, everything comes into place, as you know, and you know, this, you know, how leaders lead, there is no prescription, there's no template, it has to start with something that is important to you. And for me, it was this listening and learn understanding what needed to be done first. And once you have that platform, then you go to town on all the strategic things that because you're right, the softness, and the cute little fuzzy stuff. If that's all I did it united, we wouldn't be where it's at the fact that we were able to use that as a propellant, to get our strategic efforts. And the growth that you see now at United is the key measure that I think is made it successful.

David Novak 32:16 

So you go on this listening tour, you're all fired up, and you're ready to execute the strategy that you you're putting together and then on the 37th day now listen, this listeners the 37th day as a new CEO, you have a heart attack, you know, tell us about it?

Oscar Munoz 32:33 

Yeah, it was, it was the mother of all heart attacks, by the way, it really blew up that heart. This is probably a little bit of a PSA. And I think it's important. Heart disease is the biggest killer in America by far. And it's the biggest killer because the symptoms are many and varied. And they're different for men and women. And we often don't know that we have the issue. People perceive that, you know, somebody that's overweight or eats badly is, you know, as akin to a walking heart attack couldn't be further from the truth that heart disease is so genetic in nature. I have a good friend who's a cardiologist who would always say things like, you know, you'd be surprised at how relatively young and fit the people that die on my operating table. And I remember the those dramatic moments, and then he'd always tell us things, you know, if you ever feel anything weird, call 911. Because you know, the worst, you can be as embarrassed that you have indigestion or something. And so, I was an avid runner, and biker was a vegan on top of this. So I was not a walking heart attack kind of issue. But on a fateful morning, October 15, of 2037 days into the job. After coming back from Iran, I hear my phone buzzing across the room. And as I walk to get it, my legs begin to feel a little wobbly. Another step I actually fall to my knees, I feel a little clammy, and his words came rushing back. It's like, okay, this feels weird. So, he also had said, you know, call 911 immediately, as I said, But he added something that was you know, I thought pretty dramatic, he said, and when you reach 911, immediately tell him where you are, which da right makes sense. But then he added because you may not make it past the phone call. And I remember exactly where was it exactly his facial expression when he said it, because I remember thinking okay, it's a little dramatic. But fast forward to my situation. I'm walking, I'm crawling, I see my my cell phone and I see my landline. You'll remember what a landline is. And because I'm in the 50th floor of an apartment building in Chicago, and I need somebody to find me I need to tell them because I may not make it past this phone call. So call the phone call 911 Tell them where I am, cross them out of the front door to unlock it. And 37 minutes from my nights or 37 days did the job 37 minutes. I am in the hospital at Northwestern on ECMO which is a heart lung machine so are you know I'm on life support, in essence, because my heart had blown up. Muttering things like I don't have time for this. I don't have time for this, which is particularly on brand for me because A story that's been a while and, you know, inevitably, inevitably lead to a heart transplant because the heart was pretty blown up. But you know the story, there is one for all your listeners to just remember that it is important for you, your loved ones. Heart disease is a serious thing. And you never know when it hits you. But if you get treatment pretty quickly, it is absolutely survival. Because you look at this ugly mug, you know that that's the game. Now, not everyone requires a transplant. But there's a lot of things that they can fix, if indeed you catch it on time.

David Novak 35:31 

Yeah, you had, as you said, you had the mother of all heart attacks on basically your ARD was destroyed, you had to have a heart transplant. And understand you turned down the first heart that you had the opportunity to have, what was the logic flow on that and, you know, tell us how that story ended.

Oscar Munoz 35:47 

The process for acquiring an Oregon is, is very complicated. And, you know, very fair, no one can buy their way onto the line, you have to, you know, there's a lot of different things, you have to get into the right place, and the right hospital and get on the list, and then wait for things. So it's a very tense period, because you're waiting for an essence, someone to perish. So you can take their Oregon, so it's not like an exciting period where you're like, Hey, I can't wait for someone to die so I can get their organ, right. So there's a couple of things that happen. Hearts now can be transplanted, even if they've had some level of, of medical history, that may not be the best thing you want to do. There's a sense of illness, addiction, possible. AIDS, there's just a host of things that can happen. They can fix a lot of those things now, but they have to tell you, it's like, Hey, David, we have we have an organ for you. But we have to tell you that it comes from a donor that you know, died with him with a needle in her arm, which is the case with my first call. And so you have this decision to make because you don't know when the next call is coming. You don't know if you're ever going to get the call, do you want to take the risk of taking a possibly infected organ to put into your body for the rest of your life, and you have to make that decision. So it was it was traumatic and emotional at the time trying to make the man the only give you 20 minutes, because you know, there's somebody behind you that's waiting in line. So my wife and I were driving around looking for homes in Chicago and called called our children. And everybody had a good cry and laugh and basically say, Well, Dad, it's up to you. So I didn't know I get on the phone call. And I don't know what prompted me to ask this. But I said, Hey, the next person in line for this heart, you know, what situation are they in? And there was a woman's voice in the background that probably shouldn't have said this necessarily. She said something to the effect, he's going to take it immediately. Meaning clearly the next person in line was at a point where they did not, they were not going to have a choice. And that made my decision. Very simple. It's like, let them have it. They know they clearly are in a worse situation. I can wait, I think I have plenty. And then just you know, four days later on my birthday, I get a call with my heart that I have now. Well, you know,

David Novak 37:59 

that's a powerful story. And you describe yourself as a storyteller. And in fact, you really believe that the story telling skill is in a very important trait for a leader to have, you know, why is that?

Oscar Munoz 38:15 

I think we forget as leaders and used to strike me as the same David, we can get caught up in ourselves, our intellect, our strategic mindset, our education and learning how to present things logically and, and attack the mind and trying to solve issues and trying to prove to people how intelligent Your path is, we also learn over time that the path to true engagement, and true real release of someone's discretionary effort is not only capturing the mind, but the heart as well. And that storytelling, you know, we can all you and I can sit and give a very technical transportation and prove mathematically, historically, empirically, anything. But to get the people that work in our business, and you had the same kind of people in yours. These are salt of the Earth. Humans who come to work, earn a paycheck, have lots of issues at home, they don't have a lot of money necessarily. And what they do have in their life is the place they work and how they feel about that. And for me, capturing both of those things is important. And I have found that the best way to capture those is to tell stories or be part of the story.

David Novak 39:26 

We'll be back with the rest of my conversations with Oscar Munoz in just a moment. But you know, the turnaround at United has started by regaining the trust of employees. And it's true. Your people have to know that you care about them if they're going to get on board with bigger strategies and ideas. And Cathy Engelbert, the Commissioner of the Women's National Basketball Association has a unique way of building trust with the people she works with. So I

Cathy Engelbert 39:53 

come into the WNBA and go into that meeting four days in I'm like the players don't trust us. So we did some small things. This symbolic value through the fall of 19. And then the players were like, oh, Kathy gets us, for instance, and we're the WNBA. You know, they don't fly charter like the men's leagues do yet we had a playoff game, where the two teams in the playoffs had to fly, you know, west to east with virtually no days rest, they were gonna have to take red eyes, they're gonna have to play that night. And so I basically approved a charter flight for them doesn't sound like a huge thing was a big deal to those players, because they said, Cathy gets it. She's about our health and safety. So that was something little that I did you know, that build trust.

David Novak 40:36 

Go back and listen to my entire conversation with Kathy engelberg episode 39 here on how leaders lead.

You're obviously a great communicator. But But leaders aren't always perfect. And tell us the story of flight 3411. And what may have been your biggest communications mistake?

Oscar Munoz 41:03 

Oh, my God, it was maybe my biggest sort of mistake ever. So flight 34 Live. And that was that the dragging of that customer, Dr. Dow is his name. The story is, is complicated, only because first of all social media back at that time in early 2017, as prominent as it is today, and as many things that go viral, or everyday kind of an issue. We've been looking at research, and we may have been the first global corporation to get hit by this viral sort of Twitter backlash. In fact, there were between 400 800 million I've gotten different views of Weibo watches in China, when Dr. Tao said he was Chinese, he was actually Vietnamese, but nevertheless, China got very involved very quickly. So I became globally infamous for two reasons. One, the circumstances of the environment, which are always this is the key key thing, circumstances, while really important, and really truthful, maybe completely irrelevant. In a world where a human being is getting the holy crap beat out of them. Right. And that is basically drug off the plane. That's that's the part that that I missed horribly, right. I the facts were that he wasn't a particularly good actor, and a lot of ways he had a history. It was the Chicago Police, not united, it was united Express, not United Airlines. In fact, there was only one united employee in that vicinity. And there was a supervisor who was watching like the rest of us, aghast with what was happening. So those were the facts. And, and so the initial response was, hey, our employees were trying to help. And and you know, in this, this person is a bad person, which, you know, clearly was the wrong thing to say. I also used a term, this is back to Twitter. Our initial response by somebody on staff had said that we had been overbooked, and had to remove customers in order to make room for other people. The term overbooked in our industry is a regulatory a huge regulatory, you know, bugaboo, it's like, you know, just you just don't want to use that term, because regulators will come into play. And so the thought was, let's get rid of that word. And so the word re accommodated came into play, which doesn't sound like overbooking. But when a human has been dragged and beaten off an aircraft, the word recomendation is awful, awful choice of words, I am sure you'll agree as to the rest of the world. That was my gaff, I let that happen on my watch, there's no one because the way you should have had people around, it's like, doesn't matter. You know, that mistake is yours. But you also learned that it's never too late to do the right thing. And so a couple of days later, everybody said you gotta go, you got to go on TV nationally. And you got to talk about this. And of course, the coaching that you get is to how to tell and not spin. But hey, this wasn't united, it was this, it was this, you know, all of the different circumstances. And somewhere in the middle of the night, before that session, that morning, I literally got out of bed and fell to my knees, not being a pious person, necessarily, but kind of looking above for some level of direction. And I remembered I talked a lot in the book about my maternal grandmother, who I grew up with. And she was an incredible human who never complained, never blamed anyone. And that's, that's, that's my formative education as a human. And something about that experience came back my heritage, my my grandma, and all those things, and, and I felt a calm, I didn't know what I was going to say, you know, within a couple hours that morning. But what I did say was not what anyone expected. Because when they asked the question waiting for me to start spinning, and I said, you know, it was horrible, and it's my fault. I let policies and procedures of running an airline get in the way of doing the right thing for another human, and that should never happen. And the funny side is the audible gasp in here on her ear from the producers like, Wait, he's here. That's not what he's supposed to say. He's supposed to try to spin and we're gonna try to catch him in this but the law Are gaff was my team behind me? Who was like, Wait, that's not what he's supposed to say, either. But I know, David, and you know this because you faced many of these situations. I knew that night that I would have to talk about this for the rest of my life and to recant this meandering blame somebody else story? Well, I know David, you know what people don't understand. It wasn't really, it doesn't fly. So what we did, what I did, was my call my call alone. And the new cycle passed, we put a lot of things into play, that made things better for customers. And, you know, my my barometer is the business schools around the country who initially wrote it as a case of exactly what not to do to now the migration to those business cases actually be it. You know, what, it's never too late to do the right thing, kind of as a premise. And so it's a harsh and hard leadership lesson to do, especially for a storyteller, especially but but things move fast. And we didn't understand I think, at the time social media. Well, good

David Novak 45:59 

for getting to the right answer in a hurry. Actually, you know, you also a few years later, you had COVID hit. Now, there are a lot of industries that were affected by COVID. But your your sales went down 93%? I mean, how did you as a leader stay positive in a time like that? I know, you're worked your way out of that. And the industry is coming back now. But when you go back and you think about that time, you know, how did you cast the right shadow of leadership for the organization?

Oscar Munoz 46:28 

Yeah, several things. And this is first harkens with building a team that is so cohesive, and so in touch with each other, that as soon as we have, you know, again, we face crises every day in the airline is there's always something going on. So we are geared and we post Dr. Dow, certainly, we are geared to react quickly and act accordingly. We first saw after the outbreak, not only in South Korea, but in northern Italy. We saw our metrics, our new bookings went to zero, people weren't getting on airplanes, and Italy is a lot more proximate to the US than anywhere else. So we immediately sense that this was going to hit the United States. And so on those on that day, we began to cut everything, we began to cut capital spending, we immediately went to the markets were in the market within two or three days, and raised a bunch of money before anybody else even thought about it. Because what we did is simple math. It's like, what if this impacts our business 25%? How about 50, we did a scenario at 75 as a push, and you mentioned the number, it ended up being 93% down. And so we you immediately went to work on so many of those fronts to take your cash burn down, then begin to plan for Okay, things are cyclical, we know you have to believe that they were going to come out of it at some point in time, but not anytime certain. And so what we have to protect first was our employees. Because we're obviously with a 93% drop in revenue, you got to take cost out. And if you take cost out in an airline, these are pilots and flight attendants and technicians all who will require constant retraining time in the air as a as a pilot, tech ops, all your airplanes need constant, you can't just put things away, and you can't put humans aside, because you cannot come back in the business. So my conversation, our conversation with President Trump at the time, and that administration, if you want the economy to return, you're going to need your airlines. And you're not going to have your airlines if we're allowed if we're allowed to shut everything down, because it'll take months, months to get those things back and running at the same place. So we were able to effectively sell that concept. And again, $50 billion came the way of the industry through the Cares Act, people often accuse us of of being bailed out or taking a handout, I can tell you that the state of the industry financially was never in its history and a better place than that early part of 2020. We had just delivered our numbers a year ahead of time. So there was no bail out there. And the ramifications of the money that we took and grants and and loans are still being paid off. Compensation for employees in the airline industry is still capped at a certain amount. So there was no bailout, there was no handout in any way, shape, or form. But it did allow the industry while we were in that situation, certainly united to continue to invest in the business, continue to train and keep people sort of current on their projection, which allowed us to come back relatively quickly.

David Novak 49:21 

You know, the job you did building the culture beforehand, and then the job you did during that crisis, I think is is a case history for every leader to really look at because you did a fantastic job representing the industry and I remember that very well. You know, Oscar, this has been so much fun, and I want to have some more with my lightning round of q&a here. Are you ready for this? Sure. What's one word others would use to describe you? Human, what would you say is the one word that best describes you?

Oscar Munoz 49:52 

I'm a knucklehead.

David Novak 49:53 

If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why?

Oscar Munoz 49:59 

I've always admire Abraham Lincoln and his team of rivals book and how I not that I would ever, you know, compare myself to one but I always loved the way he worked through a very difficult situation and made it work aisle or window see? Oh definitely I'll I get up and talk to people too often. And people come to talk to me too often that it's unfair to the person in the aisle up at the window, your favorite travel destination. You know, I have four children and they always often ask who the favorite child is, is an airline exact that, that flies all over the world and has relationships all over the world. I would never admit that there was one favorite there's so much great spots.

David Novak 50:38 

What's something about Mexico you'd only know if you've lived there?

Oscar Munoz 50:42 

I think the depth of, of personal relationships that people hold dear. It's it's a simple community with simple needs. And and people that know you will go out of their way to do everything for you.

David Novak 50:57 

What's one of your daily rituals, something you never miss.

Oscar Munoz 51:01 

I love Tik Tok at night. It helps it relieves the stress of my day. I laugh I listen to music. I you know whatever's on my little channel. And that helps you go to sleep. So that

David Novak 51:15 

takes care of my question is What's something about you a few people would know, your favorite rock band and lyric?

Oscar Munoz 51:22 

Oh my god, it's simple. Rolling Stones. can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes you get what you need.

David Novak 51:29 

If I were to turn on the radio in your car, what would I hear?

Oscar Munoz 51:32 

You would hear a wild mix of from EDM, which I've grown to like a little country, certainly classic rock, and a combination of of jazz and classical. And he just I love music and I have zero musical ability. But I love to listen to it.

David Novak 51:49 

Great. That's the end of the lightning round here. Just a few more questions. And we'll wrap this up. You know, you're in your wife, Kathy, you founded pavatt Forward, which raises scholarship funds for students who are also the first in their family to attend a four year university. Tell us about what drove that.

Oscar Munoz 52:07 

I think it's simple for me. When I was in high school, a high school counselor approached me her name was Mrs. Duckworth and asked me where I was thinking of going to college at USC and some of my preliminary scores and the LSAT. And again, a true story, given the environment and background that I had from a blue collar family, Mexican American, I asked what's a college. And I think it's telling for me because that's the issue that we have in America with underrepresented minorities, they often aren't aware of the possibilities that are out there. And without her catching me in the hallway, I would have never, I would have never gone to college, possibly, I would have gone on taking a job like my dad got married, had children and lived happily ever after. But instead, I had another choice that was offered to me. And so that kind of pave it forward is a non creative play on the movie that was there once but you know, people with with promise, if we can help them? We do and send them to college.

David Novak 53:03 

That's fantastic. And I got to ask you this one, what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone who wants to be a

Oscar Munoz 53:10 

better leader? Leadership is never about you. It's always about the people that you lead. And what they think we get so caught up and how did I present myself? How did I say this thing? I gave a great speech or whatever. Nothing to do with people don't understand me. I say people don't understand you or they don't get you that you did it wrong. You should go to that immediately. Okay, what, gee, this isn't working? What have I done wrong? I in my mind, that's true leadership, because it's easy to blame others or do other things. But as a leader, there's no one else that's in charge, other than you, you know,

David Novak 53:40 

one of nine CEOs or Hispanic, you know, what do you think has to happen to change that game? I know that's a complicated question. But if you could wrap it up quickly, what what what has to happen?

Oscar Munoz 53:50 

I think it's a concept of recognizing the opportunity. The Latino cohort is, you know, the largest minority now, but it's not just a large size. They're they're more affluent, more educated, they vote more. They're incredibly customer loyal. They're digitally native. And one of the things that that we do and a lot of my post work work has been done is about educating a lot of our our CEOs in the country about how how vibrant and economy, this group is and why we don't market to them why we don't cater to them and recognize them for the value they prevent the GED. If you measure by GDP, the economic cohort, the economic Latino core in America, it would be the seventh largest nation in the world, all over the United States. You don't have to go anywhere to talk. You just have to understand where they are. And of course we're different, right? There's different nationalities. But there's a concept of Amelia is a common thread that I think I saw I don't ask to give I don't ask. I don't want you to hire anyone. I just want you to recognize and be educated on this and market to them and I think your business will do great by that nature.

David Novak 54:54 

One quote that you have, which I love is that that is what I Do but that's not who I am. In, you know, there's some powerful wisdom in that. And how would you describe what you think that is?

Oscar Munoz 55:09 

I think we get caught up in our resume and all the things that we do. Let's get him Roberto Goizueta, they used to run Coca Cola that I get a chance to work that work with. And he'd always asked me to look around, and he see all these executives at Coke. And he goes, you know, what they all have in common is, they really believe that they're special, because they work at the Coca Cola company, and they have attained their level, what they don't know is that at some point in time, they will lose that title and that affiliation, and they'll become a normal human, and they'll see who they really are. He goes, Don't ever let you get yourself get to the point where you, you walk around as to the person, the thing that you've done in work, the thing that people will remember, is the human things that you've done. And so I always say all the wonderful things that you've been able to do, I don't, I mean, yes, that's, that's great. The benefit, the impact that you've had on humans, for me, the legacy that I have left at united with a more caring and engaged culture, and that's what I do. And I did that on my own with my own heart and decisions, not through some strategic endeavor initiative. And so, um, you know, it's important to recognize that your titles and past titles are just that the person that people remembers you, the human.

David Novak 56:20 

And that's why I really am so pleased that you wrote your book. Because I think when you have a leader like yourself, who's had success, being human, that spreads the gospel with the book, like you've you've just written, I think that that makes an even greater lasting impact. So I want to thank you for talking to all the leaders that are on this show and for writing the book, and I highly recommend it. And it's been great, great having this conversation. So thanks.

Well, as I'm sure you can hear in this conversation, Oscar is a whip smart guy. But he got that honest feedback early in his career that really helped him see, there's more to great leadership and having all the right ideas and strategies, you've got to bring people along with you. If you want to make big things happen. It's your job as a leader to appeal to people's minds and their hearts. Ultimately, what makes you a leader isn't having a certain title, or being super smart, is the people around you. And the sooner you realize that leadership is about people, the more successful you'll be. Now, that's easy to say. But I know it's a heck of a lot harder to do. So this week, I want you to grab a sticky note and a marker and write yourself a reminder, jot down these three words, hearts, and minds. And as you're making decisions and having conversations, you'll remember, it's not just about those ideas and strategies and technical puzzles that you've got to solve. It's also about connecting with the humans around you, because you can't really solve those other problems if you don't have their trust and commitment first. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders can appeal to both hearts and minds. Coming up next on how leaders lead is Gil HanSe, one of the world's most sought after golf architects,

Speaker 1 58:21 

you need to be in the field to make decisions and you need to either if you're not there, then you have to have somebody who's empowered to make those decisions. Because every day something will happen on a golf course, in construction. I mean, you'd literally put a bulldozer over the top of something in it disappears. Every day, the sun is going to the angles in the shadows in the wind, and there's always something to be observed and learned on site. Our guys are shapers, we've empowered them to go ahead and make those types of decisions that maximize the site over maximizing something that's on a piece of paper.

David Novak 58:56 

So be sure to come back again next week to hear our entire conversation. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be