David Novak 0:03 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world, I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is shot noon, Orion, the Chairman and CEO of Adobe, it's the leaders job to communicate the vision of the company in a way that ignites the hearts and minds, the people they lead. In other words, plant the flag of a big idea. Now our teams don't show up simply for the paycheck, they want something bigger to be a part of a compelling vision to get behind that infuses all kinds of meaning and passion and purpose into their day to day. Adobe is a team of innovators, and they're chasing a vision that they believe in one their team is pursuing together. And with passion, there's a lot we can learn from shot new, and how he's igniting the hearts and minds of the people he leads. I can't wait for you to listen in. Here's my conversation with my friend, and soon to be yours, Sean nooner, ion, the Chairman and CEO of Adobe.

You know, I had the good fortune of meeting you first on a putting green, where I made the bold request to have this conversation on how you lead and to my delight, you said yes. So thanks so much.

Shantanu Narayen 1:33 

Thanks for having me. David, I've definitely admired what you've done. And your gift of giving back, I think is something that I am excited to participate in.

David Novak 1:43 

Well, thanks a lot. We're gonna have fun doing this. You've been CEO of Adobe since 2008, can you give us a little quick snapshot of the company? Sure,

Shantanu Narayen 1:52 

you know, the mission of the company, David, we talk about changing the world through digital experiences. And the company was founded and actually created what is now known as the desktop publishing revolution. So the first invention of the company was postscript. We certainly have also created other seminal technologies like PDF and Photoshop, you know, which is an application that people use to do images. But the mission has really guided us. And I would say, we have three real strategic areas of growth. The first is what we call enabling creativity. The second is powering digital businesses. And the third is accelerating document productivity.

David Novak 2:37 

How's the company really evolved since you took over as CEO?

Shantanu Narayen 2:42 

Well, the company evolves in many ways. And I think when you're in the technology business, David, you always realize that if you're not innovating, and if you're not changing, there's somebody else that's coming to disrupt you. And I would say probably in three big ways. The first is, we completely transitioned our business from a desktop software business to a subscription business. So I would say that's been a fairly significant change. The second is we created a new category of enterprise software, that's called the Digital Marketing or Customer Experience Management solution. And third is, you know, through acquisitions of companies like Omniture, which was an analytics, we've become a really key provider of insights and analytics for all commerce worldwide. You know, that's

David Novak 3:27 

a lot of change in the business. When you look back on your own leadership, how do you think you've evolved since day one as CEO?

Shantanu Narayen 3:35 

Well, David, I've changed so much. And you know, I, it's not an exaggeration to say every year, you sort of look back and you realize, oh, my God, I was pretty clueless just a few years ago. But so much has happened. I mean, the recession of 2009, I would say, you know, I was fortunate enough to get this opportunity to lead the company by growing from within the ranks. And I used to head up all products. And as you realize, David, I think we have to change where we think we have impact. And so what I try and do is, every year or every couple of years, say what are the big areas of impact for the company? And how can I change my own management style to evolve to that, but probably the biggest thing that I talk about is that, you know, I believe that they are flag planters and road builders. And in many ways, as I grew up from being the Chief Operating Officer, I was a road builder. I sort of understood the complexity of the business and I was all about keeping, you know, the trains on track. And I think I've become a lot more of a flag planter in addition to that, because I think setting the vision for where the company is and hopefully inspiring people is is an area that I've tried to grow in,

David Novak 4:50 

you know, speaking of your personal evolution, I want to take you back to your upbringing in India. What did your parents teach you that shaped how you lead the day?

Shantanu Narayen 4:59 

Well, up I was incredibly fortunate, David, and that first I grew up in a family where education was considered absolutely critical. My father who actually studied in the United States, in the 50s, early 50s, which was pretty unusual for those years, went back and ran his own business. And my mother was a professor of American literature. And so education in the neuron household was absolutely critical. My elder brother also has studied in the US, and, you know, there was always the ability for us to satisfy any intellectual curiosity that we have. And I think my parents always taught me that the only limitations that I would impose on myself were arbitrary, or artificial limitations that I would have. And so their aspirations for me will rarely were very high. And I think the other thing I would say is that they were very insistent that I try out different things. And so it wasn't just about, you know, being good in academics, but I think how I showed up as an individual and the other extracurricular activities, I feel really fortunate that they encouraged me to be a well Brown, well rounded individual,

David Novak 6:14 

you know, I know you're a parent with two young sons, what's the most important advice you're giving them today?

Shantanu Narayen 6:20 

You know, I think the one thing that I always try and tell them is to follow their own passion. And, you know, I'm sure, you know, the opportunities for them today are so incredible. One is, you know, working at snowflake, the other son works at Spotify. And they both really been discovering who they are, and what you know, really drives them. And so I think the ability to follow your passion, rather than trying to follow some advice that others give you, is something that I've tried to encourage them to do. And the good news, David is, when you have kids that age, they don't listen to you anyway. So they're probably more likely to listen to you than they are to listen to me.

David Novak 7:04 

You know, as I understand that, your first job was with a startup, and then you went to Apple, and then you went to start your own company. And tell us about the leadership skills you learned by working in startups. And then a large, great company like Apple that really prepared you for the job you're doing today.

Shantanu Narayen 7:21 

I think there was some part perhaps David of the entrepreneurship genes always being within me, as I said, my father ran his own business. And so startups always appealed to me, both the startup that I joined, as you point out as my first job, as well as the startup that I did, just before I came to Adobe, I co founded a company called picture. And I think startups just teach you that, you know, you have to do what's required something that I think has really stood me in good stead, which is, how do you take initiative? How do you do whatever is the thing that the company needs most at that point, rather than maybe something that you like to do? And I think it's that aspect of, you know, creating something out of nothing and following your passion? I think even in a large company like Adobe, you know, I don't take no for an answer. And I think that comes from the both the humble beginnings, as well as working in really small companies, and being able to very comfortably break any boundaries. And so I've never believed in swim lanes, you know, for executives, and individuals. And I think that's also served me well,

David Novak 8:25 

you did work in a huge company like Apple, what did you pick up from that experience?

Shantanu Narayen 8:30 

I think Apple and then Silicon Graphics, I think the scale at which some of those companies think, is really instrumental in my growth. One of the favorite expressions that was used at Silicon Graphics was, you know, to plan for the upside and react to the downside. I think there are aspects of that, which is how do you think about this at a global scale, is something that I've learned as well as, you know, really, truly being an international company? So I would say scale. And I would say the second thing, perhaps as it relates to leadership, David, is the importance of influence. You know, so many people focus on, you know, direct relationships, and what they control. And I think, you know, they underestimate influence leadership, whether it's with other employees within the company, or with partners or with customers. And I think that's an incredibly important attribute that you learn in a large company, because not everybody reports to you. And plus, I was pretty Junior in those days.

David Novak 9:30 

And when you were coming up at Adobe, and you called yourself a road builder, as you were the chief operating officer, what was the challenge that you met that really accelerated your career trajectory?

Shantanu Narayen 9:41 

David, I joined the company in 98, August of 98, the company hit a wall, we had to layoff approximately 25% of the company. And I had come in as a general manager, I was like, Oh my God, I want to be this general manager and my predecessor at that point when he was asked to lead all products completely reorganized the company. And he asked me if I would be a functional engineering leader rather than a general manager. And I said, Sure, because it felt like that was the most important thing required. And you know, at its core, Adobe is a product company. And so if you're leading, you know, part of the engineering organization, you do have actually quite a bit of impact. Long story short, but within six months of my taking over, and I was the new kid, you know, on the block, he asked me to actually lead all engineering, David. And you know, when you're leading all engineering for product company, you know, that's a pretty damn good job. And so what I learned from that was that if you can both balance innovation with predictability on software, and I think the thing that I really put in place that helped the company, which has completely changed and evolved with, you know, the team that now takes is responsible for that was this ability to, you know, say, how can we really have a good portfolio of products? How do we think about long term innovation? But how do we think about short term execution, which is table stakes, and I think, my ability to bridge, you know, the short term execution with, you know, making a couple of really long term investments, I think, was one of the reasons perhaps why they gave me the opportunity to lead the company.

David Novak 11:23 

So you come in wanting to be a GM, and you're asked to go into engineering, and then you end up running all the engineering? When did it become your goal to become CEO? Or when did it hit you that like, Hey, this is a company that I just really want to run, I can honestly

Shantanu Narayen 11:38 

say, I'm not sure I ever really said to myself that I want to be CEO, I wanted to take initiative, David, I wanted to do more things. And I think the company supported me every time I wanted to take on more. And, you know, while I was a technologist, my background is in computer science and electronics, I knew that I liked the business of technology. And that's why I'd started a company. And so I just kept volunteering for more. And, you know, it's a lesson that I tell a lot of people today, which is, you know, table stakes is doing your job really, really well. And if you can do your job really, really well and hopefully show initiative to want to take on more, you know, the company will give you that opportunity. And, you know, at the time that my predecessor Bruce decided that he wanted to retire. You know, I was one of those folks that they continued to give more, and, you know, they tapped me so, but I never woke up in the morning saying, you know, how do I plot to be CEO. In fact, one example that I always give is, when I finished my MBA, I did my MBA working while I was at Apple, in conventional wisdom at that point, David was that, hey, I should go off and become a product manager, because engineering is, you know, only for the geeks. And I said to myself, you know, that's crazy. I like doing product. And you know, if I can have the business sensibility while running engineering, why is that a bad thing? And so, I think it stood me in good stead.

David Novak 13:03 

Obviously, it has, and so you become CEO in 2007. And as I understand it, you really got off to a great start, the business was really doing well. And then the great recession hits in 2008 2009, your revenues dropped 25%. How did that impact you personally? And how did you lead everyone when the company's back was against the wall?

Shantanu Narayen 13:26 

It impacted me very profoundly, David. And, you know, as you point out, I took over in 2007, and momentum was there in the business? And 2008, there was record revenues. And I'm like, wow, how hard can this be even I couldn't do this job. And then, you know, when the recession hit in 2009, the fact that our recurring revenue was only 5%. And our revenue dropped precipitously. The thing that you have to do in those timeframes is then you have to let people go if you want to keep your profitability, and that, you know, impacted me very deeply. Because if leaders don't recognize that their job is the well being of every employee in the company, and certainly there's some macro economic situations that you do not control. But resorting to letting people go, you know, because of a failure in leadership, if you do that frequently. So I Resolved never to do that. I would say the other lesson that I really learned was that in companies when you're profitable, you tend to do a lot of things. And prioritization is really important. And there's nothing like a crisis to really prioritize what's important. And you know, I've tried to keep that as well, which is if you can really focus on the things that have impact, and if you recognize that, you know, CEOs get way too much credit and not enough blame for what goes wrong, you have a responsibility to employees, and I think both of those have, have really shaped who I am as a leader and you know, Hopefully I show up at work every day,

David Novak 15:03 

you're known for being a leader who can see around corners. What are the big paradigm shifts that you see in technology today?

Shantanu Narayen 15:10 

Well, the way you see around corners, honestly, David, is you surround yourself by incredibly bright people who tell you I mean, you know, it's amazing, right? And in so many companies, the data is actually there. And the question is, do you actually ask people for their opinion? Do you listen enough? And, you know, for that next generation of talent that is just graduating that has a point of view? How do you give them a vehicle? You know, I was just reading your book, or great one. And something that you say in that book that really resonated with me is that great ideas come from everywhere. It's one of the expressions we use within the company as well. And so when I talk about looking around the corner, for me, it's about are you listening to people who can tell you how to look around the corner, as opposed to feeling like you have to come up with that yourself. But having said that, I think artificial intelligence and machine learning, we're still scratching the surface in terms of how, you know, computers can actually not only do the mundane, but you know, derive insights, I think ease of use, I mean, it's crazy in this day and age, that we can't just talk to our computer about something that we want to create, or it's crazy that I have to use a mouse, you know, to draw. So you know, we we try to have these assertions of how the world has to change, and how can technology then be brought to bear to, you know, overcome those restrictions. But I would say artificial intelligence and machine learning, I think speech is also at a very early stage, in terms of what's happening. And really, the ability for people to have access to computing power, wherever inspiration strikes, those are just some of the tectonic shifts that I think are still happening in technology, because there's going to be a chip everywhere. It's a question of how are you taking advantage of it?

David Novak 17:04 

You mentioned disruption earlier, it seems like all the top leaders, particularly in technology, talk about the importance of disrupting yourself. How do you instill that kind of mindset in your company?

Shantanu Narayen 17:16 

I was incredibly fortunate, the two co founders of Adobe, John Warnock and Chuck Gaskey. You know, first they were researchers at Xerox PARC, David, they went to the management at Xerox PARC at that point and said, Hey, we have this idea for, you know, the technology that, you know, became postscript. And when there was no receptivity to that idea, they decided to go off and start a company. And so they always believed that, you know, you have to constantly disrupt yourself. And, you know, we were in the business of just selling postscript to OEM vendors, then we created the applications business, then we created the documents business with PDF. And, you know, I, I've tried to continue that with the management team, when we move to subscription, that was a complete disruption, we again dropped revenue, you know, 25%, when we talked about the importance of data. So I think the way we try to align the company around disruption is to have these assertions or hypotheses of how the world is going to change. And if you put them up on your wall, and you say, the world is going to change, then our job as leaders is, are we taking advantage of that? Are we in denial of that? Are we going to allow somebody else to eat our lunch? And so I think, you know, but the key lesson for me is, let's be clear on those hypotheses or assertions. And if you can't express them succinctly, then they're probably not relevant enough.

David Novak 18:46 

You mentioned that when you were Chief Operating Officer, you navigated the short term reality and balance that with the long term. You know, that's something that is a big challenge for leaders. How do you go about doing that? And do you have another example of how you navigate the long term and the short term?

Shantanu Narayen 19:03 

Well, you know, you talked about, you know, lessons that I learned earlier on, and maybe, you know, there's a element of the Asian and me, right, older civilizations do take a little bit of, you know, longer range approach. But I think another example of that, David, is when people come and tell you, you know, I mean, hey, do you want to worry about the short term water versus long term? It's our job to, you know, as a portfolio invest in what we call different horizons, right are different zones. You've got to be creating those zero to $1 billion businesses while you're trying to scale one to $10 billion businesses. And so thinking of a portfolio approach all the time, and what are the gates by which it's moving is another way, you know, you try and balance what's happening investing in emerging markets. Many people will tell you that, you know, the dollar that you spend in the US or in developing developed countries would probably deliver a better ROI and if To change that time horizon of what the ROI is, that's one way to, you know, allow yourself to invest, not only invest, but actually insist on investing in emerging markets. So I think you have to create these different inspection metrics. And if the metric is not all short term, then I think, you know, that allows the organization to create the balance that you need to do.

David Novak 20:26 

You know, when I was preparing for this conversation, I was really curious, I started wondering, what would a business review be like at Adobe?

Shantanu Narayen 20:34 

Well, it's a question that's probably better asked of some people, David, and I think you would hear that if people were not prepared. It's like going to, you know, it's like getting a root canal, you know, coming in for a business review with me. But two things we've tried to do, David, the first is we've created this brand new vocabulary, when we created a subscription business, we created what we call this data driven operating model. Think of it as a customer funnel, you know, how do customers discover your products? How do they try it? How do they buy it? What's the usage associated with those products, and how they renew it, creating this common vocabulary for ourselves as a company, every business review, I expect people to come in with the data associated with that data driven operating model, and the narrative. So you know, the more senior you are, as a leader, you got to be able to have the narrative of what's happening in the business. And you have to have the data. And I would say, you know, the people who are in complete control and command of both the narrative, as well as the Business Review, they would hopefully say it's a very collaborative working session, those who try and come in with only one of those where they have the data, but they don't have the narrative or the insight, or they have this assertion, but they don't have data to back it up. I would actually hope that they would say they don't go well. Because, you know, I then start drilling. And, you know, it's something that, you know, I would say, I have a little bit more of a Socratic method of asking questions. And if people aren't in control of their stuff, I have to say, and I hate to say this, they typically goes badly for them.

David Novak 22:20 

Well, it sets a high standard for what you expect in the company. And you know, I know you've been a champion and the pioneer of open data, along with Microsoft and SAP CEOs. Explain what you mean by open data. I think people get confused by that. And why are you so passionate about it?

Shantanu Narayen 22:38 

Well, there are multiple things that the company is passionate about. But in that particular space, our real vision for our digital experience solutions is that the same transformation that we went through, where we were engaging with customers indirectly, because we shipped boxes, we didn't exactly know how they were using our software, we said there was a better way to do it. And the better way to do it was to engage directly with customers to be able to understand exactly what products they were using, how they learned about our products. When you're collecting all this data on behalf of your customers, there were two lines in the sand that we drew, the first line in the sand that we drew was that this data belong to the customer, it didn't belong to us. It was Adobe's privilege to be able to collect that data on behalf of them. We had to keep it private, we had to keep it secure. But many enterprise companies believe that when they are collecting the data on behalf of their customers, that it's their data. And so the Open Data Initiative was really born out of this belief that first the customers own the data. It's our job as a provider of enterprise software to enable them to take advantage of that data. And the second belief was that the too many silos within a company, you have financial data, you have marketing data, you have product data, you have customer support data. And the Open Data Initiative was all about saying if you're trying to create this personalized experience for customers, unless you integrate all of those different disparate data sources, your picture of when David, you know, let's say, when you were at yum brands, and you were going to Pizza Hut or KFC or Taco Bell, or one of those places, how do you truly understand who that person is. And the only way to do that is by having this open data initiative by allowing people to integrate that data. And by recognizing that data is the most important commodity that an enterprise has. So that was the motivation for the Open Data Initiative. You know,

David Novak 24:43 

it's really interesting, because, you know, when you think about competition, I'm sure internally it's hard to get people to want to be transparent and share data. I would say that's a cataclysmic shift in the company to say, hey, we're going to open up our data to competition.

Shantanu Narayen 24:58 

I would speak to Different companies have different DNA. And if you think about postscript from day one, postscript was an open standard, we published the standard. So if people wanted to copy us, they could copy us. And we believe that PDF was also an open standard. In fact, the reason why you have these trillions of PDFs, I think, have a lot to do with the fact that it's an open standard. So the trade off that companies have to realize is that do the benefits associated with open data? And having an entire ecosystem of innovation that focuses on that open data? Is that better, or is trying to keep it proprietary, and be, you know, island unto yourself. And so maybe if I describe it that way, which is, you know, you can get millions of developers and an entire ecosystem of innovation to build on top of your platform, or you can keep it proprietary and have an island unto itself. It makes it a pretty easy argument as to why you know, open data will always win.

David Novak 26:02 

How do you build a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo and your company?

Shantanu Narayen 26:06 

And it's such a great question, David, it's such a great question. Because, you know, your job as a leader is always being unreasonable. I like to say one of the expressions that I hope people use for me is that I have unreasonable expectations. And I think the amazing thing is, if you have unreasonable expectations, and a great employee base like we have, they always amaze you with the ingenuity. So they'll do what's required. As it relates to the stock price, I think the message that I try to communicate to the employees is, the stock price is what it is because of the great work that we did a year ago, or two years ago, or the decisions we made. And you've got to plant that flag, you know, that old book Who Moved My Cheese, and you've got to try and create this new flag planting that you do, which is whether it's for product reasons, or financial reasons, just a more aspiring initiative for people to align around and rally around. And then the second thing I think you'll have to do, and people say, sometimes they use the cranky word that I'm cranky in these meetings, you know, you you don't want to be complacent. And, you know, you have to again, find the real thought leaders in your company, who say, you know, what, we're resting on our laurels. And you know, what are the key things that they want to do? So how you find those individuals who can carry the torch and have this, you know, ideas of what you can do next? And give them the power and give them the sponsorship and give them the air cover? I think that's how you send this message that, you know, don't look back. I mean, it's all about looking forward. And and then you find perhaps a couple of you mentioned this, a couple of competitors, who you look at it and say, You know what, they're coming after us. And so do we want to allow you know, that company to come after, you know, what is rightfully our opportunity? And so it's a little bit of a carrot and a little bit of a stick? Is you gave

David Novak 27:59 

me that answer, you know, reminded me when I visited Walmart years ago, Sam Walton put up a sign in the lobby says today's stock price is x, tomorrow's up to you. I like that. I figure you would like that, you know, it seems like customers want so much more than product today. Tell us how digital experiences work and why they're so important.

Shantanu Narayen 28:20 

Like you said, David, I think we have this fundamental belief that the physical good if you're selling a physical good, is just one part of the entire experience of how a consumer is now interacting with every enterprise. Again, I You're the expert in this, but you know, the entire food industry has changed where you know, whether you want to order on a phone and get it delivered, or, you know, specify the ingredients. And so I think putting yourself in the consumers shoes, I mean, I've always said, we build the best products when we build them for ourselves as well. And by usage of products. And so I think for me, just recognizing that it's how people discover about your product, how they use your product, what the post sales support is about a product. In many ways, that's way more important than the actual, you know, attributes of the physical product if you're selling a physical product, and if you're selling software, you know, the software's ability to delight you when you have to do something actually is is the highest predictor. And so, you know, the way we do it, every employee in the company one year, David was incented on retention. And so by sending the message that it's not about customer acquisition, but that it's about customer satisfaction, because the great thing about a subscription business, is that recurring revenue is 90%. The thing about a subscription business that's terrifying is every day, you want to make sure that the customer is still willing to pay you you know, whatever they paid you last month and so I think that keeps us on our toes. And so I think thinking about the entire day way in which a company interacts with the consumer, I think is a really great rallying cry for our employees.

David Novak 30:06 

I'd like you to give some advice to the creative people that are listening into this conversation. You know, we both know there's something really special about creative people the insights and instincts they have and how they think. What would you say to them about leadership, and viewing themselves as leaders and how to step forward?

Shantanu Narayen 30:24 

Well, first, to your point, I think everybody talks about STEM. And STEM is incredibly important, you know, science, technology, and math. But I've always used the expression steam, and we add arts do it. And we say the world without creativity and arts would be an incredibly boring place. And so, you know, steam is clearly an area that that's passion for us. And, you know, I think painting pictures, I mean, if you were to consume, let's say, a magazine, and it was only text without pictures, or if you didn't have a game with animation, or interactivity. So I think this nature of storytelling, and talking about how storytelling really transforms the world, and the power of storytelling, that's one way in which and, you know, the world is as brilliant as it is, because of people who are right brain and left brain, and we have a passion for the arts, we support the arts, we, you know, recognize why it's important. And I really believe in my God, that it doesn't matter whether you're a K through 12 student or the largest enterprise in the world, you want to tell your story, and you want to tell you a story with pictures and video and animation. And that's creative. And, you know, we all see great creativity when it's delivered. And whatever we can do to champion it in schools, with art institutions with museums, globally, is something that we're very passionate about David, but there are enough people in the world who actually believe that it's our job, just sponsoring them and bringing it to the forefront. Rather than trying to create it. I mean, I we're in this incredible position, we're an enabler, rather than actually the creator of this creativity.

David Novak 32:06 

You know, you have multiple platforms, and your company's been recognized for being so innovative, you're always in the top 10. By all the magazines that really look at innovation, can you tell us about a recent innovation in your company and how it actually came about,

Shantanu Narayen 32:22 

I'll speak about one product. I mean, the challenge with doing that, David, as you know, is when you have multiple products, or in your case, multiple businesses, and you pick one, you're liable to, you know, upset some other people, but I'll give you one product that I think a lot of your viewers, hopefully would also love. It's a product called Adobe scam. And, you know, you just recognize that I have this phone now with me, and you carry the phone wherever you go. And, you know, how many times do you want to take a picture of something, you want to convert it into a document, you want to edit it? And so it's a very simple application, but it's called Adobe scan. And what it allows you to do is PDF creation for the mobile era. So the value proposition of this was very simple. And it was just how can we allow people to do PDF creation for the mobile era? How do you sign it? Isn't it crazy in this day and age that somehow people think that a physical signature is more legitimate than an electronic signature. So we created this product and the fact that every employee in the company, we try and make sure that the beta for our products, every employee in the company gets to try it out first and use it and, and give feedback. That team has just hit it out of the park, it is one of these really cool products. And then we said to ourselves, if you've created this PDF, how can you use artificial intelligence and machine learning with another feature called Liquid more than Acrobat to allow you to take any PDF that was created 20 years ago, and make it completely responsive on a mobile device? So you don't have to pinch and zoom on this document, you can just actually, you know, it reflows it for you. So I think painting this picture of a couple of real pain points. And if you have that visceral reaction of yes, I've experienced it, and why can we solve it? I think that led to Adobe scan. I mean, there's so many such stories. The one thing David I worry about is sometimes we use stories that were successful products. I think leaders should also use products that were perhaps not as commercially successful, but that the learnings enabled us to do something very profound later. And I think part of what we try and do it Adobe is let's also celebrate, you know, products that were perhaps not commercial successes may have been even commercial failures, but the learnings from that were really what enabled us to build another product. And so I those are two examples, maybe of what we try and create in the company give an example of something that was commercially successful and how it came to being and celebrate people but equally Celebrate people who tried something took the initiative may not have been successful, but we got some great learnings out of it. That helped us down the road.

David Novak 35:09 

Listen to that conversation there. You almost cringed, it was hard for you to say, failure, it was hard for you to get that word out. How do you view failure?

Shantanu Narayen 35:17 

Again, I have been singularly so successful at so many failures in my life. You learn from failure, David. And, you know, I really believe that my startup that I founded picture, this was in the early 90s. And we said to ourselves, people will want to share images, it was just the, you know, digital technology was just happening, we thought analog film was gonna get completely revolutionized by the digital SLRs. And digital cameras were happening, by all means, that was a failure. Right? I mean, we raised a lot of money actually gave back the money that we raised, because I said, you know, I'm I don't believe that a business model exists for that you can argue a business model still doesn't exist for that, even though people talk about advertising. But what I learned from that was so invaluable for me in terms of how I think about an opportunity, how I motivate people, how I build teams that at least for me, that was probably the most seminal learning in my life. And that was, you know, by all means, a failure. There, I said it and it actually came off, it rolled off the tongue easily.

David Novak 36:25 

You know, how do you think about aspirational goal setting? And how do you do it in a way that motivates your team,

Shantanu Narayen 36:33 

I'd like to say that if you can connect the dots of where you are today and where you want to go, it's probably not aspirational enough, David. And so I think our job as leaders, going back to the flag planting comment that we had, it's painting that picture of with our subscription business, we said, we're selling boxes to people, we ship a product every 12 or 18 months, we need to completely transform to the point where we can ship software every day, that we can, you know, attract customers all around the world with a very low upfront price, where we have to constantly demonstrate innovation for them to be retained as customers, we had no idea how we were going to completely change it, the finance group had to move from, you know, one form of revenue recognition, to a completely different form of revenue recognition, the legal team had to completely transform. So it was one of those aspirational things where we believe we could deliver a better product attract new customers serve customers better, but we really had no idea of how to connect all the dots to get there. And so we created this culture of experimentation, we created leaders when we tried to empower to go off and do that. And I think that's what we have to continue to do, which is, you said this aspirational goal. And if you can connect all the dots, it's probably not aspirational enough. And I think my learning in this is that some people get motivated by financial aspirations other people get motivated by product aspirations. You can't restrict yourself as a leader to only dealing with one constituency of employees or stakeholders, you have to deal with all of them. And you have to be just as aspirational in all of them. Because if you're not, then they are not working together to accomplish what what do you think is potential?

David Novak 38:24 

You know, I read somewhere that you describe yourself as the chief evangelist officer. What's the sermon from the mount from the CEO of Adobe?

Shantanu Narayen 38:33 

Well, you know, we're only as good I think you pointed out, you said what Sam Walton said at Walmart, we're, we're only as good as the next innovation that we're going to work on. And so, you know, are we constantly changing and evolving, and I think being dissatisfied with, you know, the status quo. And I think the summon to our employees is that we have this incredible canvas, on which we have these myriad opportunities that we can innovate it. The sermon for the financial community is we're just getting started in terms of, you know, the potential of how digital is going to be a tailwind and the growth opportunities that we have, and I think most important, the sermon for our customers, is that we will understand your pain points, but it's our job, understanding how technology can be brought to bear to help you solve your pain points. And last but not least, I think, you know, as our company has evolved, the platform that we now have accorded to us, David in terms of how we use that platform to do good and and serve the communities. I think that's an important part of, you know, the responsibility that we have as well as a company.

David Novak 39:47 

You know, coaching is so important. How do you go about coaching yourself for top performance?

Shantanu Narayen 39:54 

Two lessons, maybe in that realm, David, the first is the more I have mature award in my own leadership style, I think recognizing how your superstars, you know, change very significantly the trajectory of the company and are you coaching them? And are you spending a disproportionate time with them to achieve their potential? I think that's an area that I've tried to change a lot. And the second thing is, I had this mentor very early in my career at Apple. And he was constantly dissatisfied with what I did. And what I was working for him that irked me at times. But I recognized you know, as I, as I realized what he was doing was that he saw a potential in me, and he saw maybe a spark in me, and he was constantly challenging me to do things. And so I use the word challenge just as frequently, David, I'm challenging people to try and do some things that we both would have deemed impossible. And they, again, amaze you, they amaze you, because they figure it out. So I think for me, coaching is sort of constantly trying to say, what more can we do, what more can we do, and I think that's an area and spending a disproportionate amount of my time with those who are really moving the needle. I think the second thing that I try and do is in companies of our scale, there's so much that's table stakes. And my every year I try and sit down with my leadership team, and I tried to cascade it and say, What are the two or three things that we can do, where we can look back at the end of the year and say, Not only have we grown as individuals, but we've changed the trajectory of the company. And if you can focus them on the boulders, you know, that old parable of if you have boulders, and if you have a whole bunch of gravel, and you put the gravel in the bottle in the bottle, the boulders not going to fit. I think that's the coaching thing that I've also tried to do, which is let's focus on the disproportionately high impact things, because that's going to move the needle for for us as a company. You know, Shana,

David Novak 41:57 

you really raise the bar for people, obviously, you're constantly challenging, and you have so much energy, and you have a smile literally that lights up the room. You know, I have a hard time seeing is this tough guy. Okay, but, you know, I've learned a little bit more about you, but where's your energy come from? Do you have any daily rituals that keep you pumped up and ready to go?

Shantanu Narayen 42:18 

I think you get a lot of energy from your family, David. And you know, I it's you're always trying to be the best individual that you can. But I love building products. I love building products. I love imagining the possibilities. You talked about a dreamer. And I think again, my parents always instilled in me this sort of intellectual curiosity. And I'm sure you feel this way, David. I mean, the world has become so expensive. We're constantly learning. And if you come into that saying, you know, I'm always learning. You know, that's what gives me my energy to be a better individual to be a better family member to be a better leader. And the day you stop thinking you can learn, I think you're done.

David Novak 43:00 

You know, speaking of family, I understand that you called your parents every day, you started out your day, that way

Shantanu Narayen 43:05 

I do. And it doesn't matter where I am in the world. It's a ritual that, you know, technology's been great, because nowadays, it's a video conference. And I did that today. I did that yesterday. It doesn't matter where in the world I am. And it's one of those things that just keeps me balanced and reminds me of the people who've had the kind of influence in my life. That that's given me these opportunities, David,

David Novak 43:28 

and I bet your parents are just cheering you on every day. Well,

Shantanu Narayen 43:31 

they're actually always asking me if I you know, don't call at the time what kept me waiting. So the bar is high, even in the neuron. Parents house.

David Novak 43:42 

You know, this has been so much fun. And I'd like to have some more with a lightning round of q&a If you don't mind. Are you? Are you game here? I'm game. Okay. What three words best describe you.

Unknown Speaker 43:52 

Curious? Competitive,

Speaker 1 43:56 

unreasonable, favorite color and why? Blue?

Shantanu Narayen 44:00 

I love water. I used to sail competitively in India. And so I sell for Indian for India in a nation game. So blue,

David Novak 44:09 

favorite Adobe product you use when you're just playing around? I'd have to say imaging and Photoshop. If you could be someone else for a day, who would it be? And why?

Shantanu Narayen 44:21 

You know, I have a great relationship with my kids, but one of my kids so that I can understand how better to support them in whatever they want to do moving forward. Your biggest pet peeves? People who say it can't be done. What's something about you that few people would know? The fact that I really wanted to be a journalist? Do you have any hidden talents? None but as you know, I'm an aspiring golfer.

David Novak 44:48 

A very good one, by the way. Chandi we're about to wrap this up. I have two more questions for you. Okay. What three bits of advice would you give aspiring leaders?

Shantanu Narayen 44:56 

Follow your passion? Hire people Will very carefully remove obstacles that come in the way of people accomplishing their dreams.

David Novak 45:07 

And you've got, obviously what most people would think would be a 24/7 pressure with all kinds of competing demands. What advice can you give on how to get the balance that we all need in life?

Shantanu Narayen 45:20 

I don't know that I have balanced David. But what I have is multiple passions. And different people do a different way. I just have multiple passions, because then none of them seems like it's worth.

David Novak 45:32 

You know, Shantou, I have to tell you after this conversation, I would have loved working for a guy like you, someone who raises the bar has that passion, and helps you become the best you can be. And I just really, really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to do it.

Shantanu Narayen 45:48 

Really appreciate you having me, David, and thank you.

David Novak 46:00 

Well, I know one of your major takeaways from that conversation is that before you can lead others towards a compelling vision, you have to identify a compelling vision for yourself. Now mine, for example, is to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. Now, this is something that when I wake up every day, I'm excited about it. I can't wait to go work with my team to figure out how we can take it to the next level. Because I know the world needs better leaders. And it's one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast, I want to help you be the best leader that you can be. Now in my new book take charge of you. We walk readers through an exercise called the single biggest thing. The idea here is to identify a compelling vision for the future. A goal you can strive for that brings you joy. If you're not excited about what you're working towards, you shouldn't be doing it. What I want you to do this week is to identify the single biggest thing for you personally. From there, go do the exact same thing for the team or the company you lead. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders ignite the hearts and minds of the people they lead. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be