Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I break down the key learnings so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Chant-Noon Narayan, the Chairman and CEO of Adobe. It's the leader's job to communicate the vision of the company in a way that ignites the hearts and minds of the people they lead. In other words, plant the flag of a big idea. Now our teams don't show up simply for the paycheck. They want something bigger to be a part of, a compelling vision to get behind that infuses all kinds of meaning and passion and purpose into their day to day. Adobe is a team of innovators and they're chasing a vision that they believe in . When their team is pursuing together and with passion, there's a lot we can learn from Chant-Noon and how he's igniting the hearts and minds of the people he leads. I can't wait for you to listen in. Here's my conversation with my friend and soon to be yours, Chant-Noon Narayan, the Chairman and CEO of Adobe. I had the good fortune of meeting you first on a putting green where I made the bold request to have this conversation on how you lead. To my delight, you said yes. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me, David. Definitely admired what you've done and your gift of giving back I think is something that I am excited to participate in. Well, thanks a lot. We're going to have fun doing this. You've been CEO of Adobe since 2008. Can you give us a little quick snapshot of the company? Sure. The mission of the company, David, we talk about changing the world through digital experiences. The company was founded and actually created what is now known as the desktop publishing revolution. The first invention of the company was post-tripped. We certainly have also created other seminal technologies like PDF and Photoshop, which is an application that people use to do images. But the mission has really guided us and I would say we have three real strategic areas of growth. The first is what we call enabling creativity. The second is powering digital businesses and the third is accelerating document productivity. How has the company really evolved since you took over as CEO? Well, the company evolves in many ways. I think when you're in the technology business, David, you always realize that if you're not innovating and if you're not changing, there's somebody else that's coming to disrupt you. I would say probably in three big ways. The first is we completely transitioned our business from a desktop software business to a subscription business. So I would say that's been a fairly significant change. The second is we created a new category of enterprise software that's called the digital marketing or customer experience management solution. And third is through acquisitions of companies like Omniture, which was in analytics, we've become a really key provider of insights and analytics for all commerce worldwide. That's a lot of change in the business. When you look back on your own leadership, how do you think you've evolved since day one as CEO? Well, David, I've changed so much. It's not an exaggeration to say every year you look back and you realize, "Oh my God, I was pretty clueless just a few years ago." But so much has happened. I mean, the recession of 2009, I would say I was fortunate enough to get this opportunity to lead the company by growing from within the ranks. I used to head up all products. And as you realize, David, I think we have to change where we think we have impact. And so what I try and do is every year or every couple of years say, "What are the big areas of impact for the company? And how can I change my own management style to evolve to that?" But probably the biggest thing that I talk about is that I believe that they are flag planters and road builders. And in many ways, as I grew up from being the chief operating officer, I was a road builder. I sort of understood the complexity of the business and I was all about keeping the trains on track. And I think I've become a lot more of a flag planter in addition to that because I think setting the vision for where the company is and hopefully inspiring people is an area that I've tried to grow in. You know, speaking of your personal evolution, I want to take you back to your upbringing in India. What did your parents teach you that shaped how you lead today? Well, I was incredibly fortunate, David, in that first I grew up in a family where education was considered absolutely critical. My father, who actually studied in the United States in the '50s, early '50s, which was pretty unusual for those years, went back and ran his own business. And my mother was a professor of American literature. And so education in the Narayan household was absolutely critical. My elder brother also has studied in the US. And there was always the ability for us to satisfy any intellectual curiosity that we have. And I think my parents always taught me that the only limitations that I would impose on myself were arbitrary or artificial limitations that I would have. And so their aspirations for me were very high. And I think the other thing I would say is that they were very insistent that I try out different things. And so it wasn't just about being good in academics, but I think how I showed up as an individual and the other extracurricular activities. I feel really fortunate that they encouraged me to be a well-rounded individual . I know you're a parent with two young sons. What's the most important advice you're giving them today? I think the one thing that I always try and tell them is to follow their own passion. And I'm sure the opportunities for them today are so incredible. One is working at Snowflake, the other son works at Spotify. And they've both really been discovering who they are and what really drives them. And so I think the ability to follow your passion rather than trying to follow some advice that others give you is something that I've tried to encourage them to do. And the good news, David, is when you have kids that is, they don't listen to you anyway. So they're probably more likely to listen to you than they are to listen to me. As I understand it, your first job was with a startup and then you went to Apple and then you went to start your own company. And tell us about the leadership skills you learned by working in startups and then a large great company like Apple that really prepared you for the job you're doing today. I think there was some part perhaps David of the entrepreneurship jeans always being within me. As I said, my father ran his own business. And so startups always appealed to me. Both the startup that I joined as you point out is my first job as well as the startup that I did just before I came to Adobe. I co-founded a company called Picture. And I think startups just teach you that you have to do what's required. Something that I think has really stood me in good stead, which is how do you take initiative? How do you do whatever is the thing that the company needs most at that point rather than maybe something that you like to do? And I think it's that aspect of creating something out of nothing and following your passion. I think even in a large company like Adobe, I don't take no for an answer. And I think that comes from both the humble beginnings as well as working in really small companies and being able to very comfortably break any boundaries. And so I've never believed in swim lanes for executives and individuals. And I think that's also served me well. You did work in a huge company like Apple. What did you pick up from that experience? I think Apple and then Silicon Graphics, I think the scale at which some of those companies think is really instrumental in my growth. One of the favorite expressions that was used at Silicon Graphics was to plan for the upside and react to the downside. I think their aspects of that, which is how do you think about this at a global scale, is something that I've learned as well as truly being an international company. So I would say scale and I would say the second thing perhaps as it relates to leadership, David, is the importance of influence. So many people focus on direct relationships and what they control. And I think they underestimate influence leadership, whether it's with other employees within the company or with partners or with customers. And I think that's an incredibly important attribute that you learn in a large company because not everybody reports to you. And plus I was pretty junior in those days. And when you were coming up at Adobe and you called yourself a road builder as you were the chief operating officer, what was the challenge that you met that really accelerated your career trajectory? David, I joined the company in '98, August of '98, the company hit a wall. We had to lay off approximately 25% of the company. And I had come in as a general manager. I was like, oh my God, I want to be this general manager. And my predecessor at that point, when he was asked to lead all products, completely reorganize the company. And he asked me if I would be a functional engineering leader rather than a general manager. And I said, sure, because it felt like that was the most important thing required. And at its core, Adobe is a product company. And so if you're leading part of the engineering organization, you do have actually quite a bit of impact. Long story short, but within six months of my taking over, and I was the new kid on the block, he asked me to actually lead all engineering, David. And when you're leading all engineering for a product company, that's a pretty damn good job. And so what I learned from that was that if you can both balance innovation with predictability on software, and I think the thing that I really put in place that helped the company, which has completely changed and evolved with the team that now takes is responsible for that, was this ability to say, how can we really have a good portfolio of products? How do we think about long-term innovation? But how do we think about short-term execution, which is stable stakes? And I think my ability to bridge the short-term execution with making a couple of really long-term investments, I think was one of the reasons, perhaps, why they gave me the opportunity to lead the company. So you come in and wanting to be a GM, and you're asked to go into engineering, and then you end up running all of engineering. When did it become your goal to become CEO? Or when did it hit you that, "Hey, this is a company I just really want to run ?" I can honestly say, I'm not sure I ever really said to myself that I want to be CEO. I wanted to take initiative, David. I wanted to do more things. And I think the company supported me every time I wanted to take on more. And while I was a technologist, my background is in computer science and electronics, I knew that I liked the business of technology. And that's why I started a company. And so I just kept volunteering for more. And it's a lesson that I tell a lot of people today, which is, table stakes is doing your job really, really well. And if you can do your job really, really well and hopefully show initiative to want to take on more, the company will give you that opportunity. And at the time that my predecessor, Bruce, decided that he wanted to retire, I was one of those folks that they continue to give more and they tap me. So, but I never woke up in the morning saying, "How do I plot to be CEO?" In fact, one example that I always give is when I finished my MBA, I did my MBA working while I was at Apple. And conventional wisdom at that point, David, was that, "Hey, I should go off and become a product manager because engineering is only for the geeks." And I said to myself, "That's crazy. I like doing product and if I can have the business sensibility while running engineering, why is that a bad thing?" And so I think it stood me in good stead. Obviously, it hasn't. And so you become CEO in 2007. And as I understand it, you really got off to a great start. The business was really doing well. And then the great recession hits in 2008, 2009, your revenues dropped 25%. How did that impact you personally? And how did you lead everyone when the company's back was against the wall? It impacted me very profoundly, David. And as you point out, I took over in 2007 and Momentum was there in the business. In 2008, there was record revenues. And I'm like, "Wow, how hard can this be? Even I can do this job." And then when the recession hit in 2009, the fact that our recurring revenue was only 5% in our revenue drop precipitously, the thing that you have to do in those time frames is then you have to let people go if you want to keep your profitability. And that impacted me very deeply because if leaders don't recognize that their job is the well-being of every employee in the company, and certainly there's some macroeconomic situations that you do not control, but resorting to letting people go because of a failure in leadership if you do that frequently. So I resolved never to do that. I would say the other lesson that I really learned was that in companies, when you're profitable, you tend to do a lot of things and prioritization is really important. And there's nothing like a crisis to really prioritize what's important. And I've tried to keep that as well, which is if you can really focus on the things that have impact, and if you recognize that CEOs get way too much credit and not enough blame for what goes wrong, you have a responsibility to employees. And I think both of those have really shaped who I am as a leader and how hopefully I show up and work every day. You're known for being a leader who can see around corners. What are the big paradigm shifts that you see in technology today? Well, the way you see around corners, honestly, David, is you surround yourself by incredibly bright people who tell you, I mean, it's amazing, right? In so many companies, the data is actually there. And the question is, do you actually ask people for their opinion? Do you listen enough? And for that next generation of talent that is just graduating that has a point of view, how do you give them a vehicle? I was just reading your book, or "Great One," and something that you say in that book that really resonated with me is that great ideas come from everywhere. It's one of the expressions we use within the company as well. And so when I talk about looking around the corner, for me, it's about are you listening to people who can tell you how to look around the corner as opposed to feeling like you have to come up with that yourself? And having said that, I think artificial intelligence and machine learning, we 're still scratching the surface in terms of how computers can actually not only do the mundane but derive insights. I think ease of use, I mean, it's crazy in this day and age that we can't just talk to our computer about something that we want to create, or it's crazy that I have to use a mouse to draw. So we try to have these assertions of how the world has to change, and how can technology then be brought to bear to overcome those restrictions. But I would say artificial intelligence and machine learning, I think speech is also at a very early stage in terms of what's happening. And really, the ability for people to have access to computing power wherever inspiration strikes. Those are just some of the tectonic shifts that I think are still happening in technology, because there's going to be a chip everywhere. It's a question of how are you taking advantage of it? You mentioned disruption earlier. It seems like all the top leaders, particularly in technology, talk about the importance of disrupting yourself. How do you instill that kind of mindset in your company? I was incredibly fortunate. The two co-founders of Adobe, John Warnock and Chuck Gieszky, first, they were researchers at Xerox Park, David. They went to the management at Xerox Park at that point and said, "Hey, we have this idea for the technology that became PostScript." And when there was no receptivity to that idea, they decided to go off and start a company. And so they always believed that you have to constantly disrupt yourself. And we were in the business of just selling PostScript to OEM vendors. Then we created the applications business, then we created the documents business with PDF. And I've tried to continue that with the management team. When we moved to subscription, that was a complete disruption. We again dropped revenue 25% when we talked about the importance of data. So I think the way we try to align the company around disruption is to have these assertions or hypotheses of how the world is going to change. And if you put them up on your wall and you say, "The world is going to change ," then our job as leaders is, "Are we taking advantage of that? Are we in denial of that? Or are we going to allow somebody else to eat our lunch?" And so I think, you know, but the key lesson for me is let's be clear on those hypotheses or assertions. And if you can't express them succinctly, then they're probably not relevant enough. You mentioned that when you were a chief operating officer, you navigated the short-term reality and balanced it with the long-term. You know, that's something that is a big challenge for leaders. How do you go about doing that? And do you have another example of how you navigate the long-term and the short -term? Well, you know, you talked about lessons that I learned earlier on. And maybe, you know, there's an element of the Asian in me, right? Older civilizations do take a little bit of a longer range approach. But I think another example of that, David, is when people come and tell you, you know, I mean, hey, do you want to worry about the short-term, quarter versus long- term? It's our job to, you know, as a portfolio, invest in what we call different hor izons, right, or different zones. You've got to be creating those zero to one billion dollar businesses while you 're trying to scale one to ten billion dollar businesses. And so thinking of a portfolio approach all the time and what are the gates by which it's moving is another way. You know, you try and balance what's happening, investing in emerging markets. Many people will tell you that, you know, the dollar that you spend in the U.S. or in developing developed countries would probably deliver a better ROI. And if you change that time horizon of what the ROI is, that's one way to, you know, allow yourself to invest, not only invest, but actually insist on investing in emerging markets. So I think you have to create these different inspection metrics. And if the metric is not all short-term, then I think, you know, that allows the organization to create the balance that you need to do. You know, when I was preparing for this conversation, I was really curious. I was starting wondering, what would a business review be like at Adobe? Well, it's a question that's probably better asked of some people, David, and I think you would hear that if people were not prepared, it's like going to, you know, it's like getting a root canal, you know, coming in for a business review with me. But two things we've tried to do, David, the first is we've created this brand new vocabulary. When we created a subscription business, we created what we call this data- driven operating model. Think of it as a customer funnel. You know, how do customers discover your products? How do they try it? How do they buy it? What's the usage associated with those products and how they renew it? Creating this common vocabulary for ourselves as a company, every business review I expect people to come in with the data associated with that data-driven operating model and the narrative. So you know, the more senior you are as a leader, you've got to be able to have the narrative of what's happening in the business and you have to have the data. And I would say, you know, the people who are in complete control and command of both the narrative as well as the business review, they would hopefully say it's a very collaborative working session. Those who try and come in with only one of those where they have the data, but they don't have the narrative of the insight or they have this assertion, but they don't have data to back it up, I would actually hope that they would say they don't go well because, you know, I then start drilling and, you know, it's something that, you know, I would say I have a little bit more of a Socratic method of asking questions and if people aren't in control of their stuff, I have to say, and I hate to say this, they typically go badly for them. Well, that's a high standard for what you expect in the company. And, you know, I know you've been a champion in the pioneer of open data along with Microsoft and SAP CEOs, explain what you mean by open data. I think people get confused by that and why are you so passionate about it? Well, there are multiple things that the company is passionate about, but in that particular space, our real vision for our digital experience solutions is that the same transformation that we went through, where we were engaging with customers indirectly because we shipped boxes, we didn't exactly know how they were using our software. We said there was a better way to do it and the better way to do it was to engage directly with customers, to be able to understand exactly what products they were using, how they learned about our products. When you're collecting all this data on behalf of your customers, there were two lines in the sand that we drew. The first line in the sand that we drew was that this data belonged to the customer. It didn't belong to us. It was Adobe's privilege to be able to collect that data on behalf of them. We had to keep it private, we had to keep it secure, but many enterprise companies believe that when they're collecting the data on behalf of their customers, that it's their data. The open data initiative was really born out of this belief that first, the customers own the data. It's our job as a provider of enterprise software to enable them to take advantage of that data. The second belief was that there are too many silos within a company. You have financial data, you have marketing data, you have product data, you have customer support data. The open data initiative was all about saying if you're trying to create this personalized experience for customers, unless you integrate all of those different disparate data sources, your picture of when David, let's say when you were at YAM brands and you were going to Pizza Hut or KFC or Taco Bell or one of those places, how do you truly understand who that person is? The only way to do that is by having this open data initiative, by allowing people to integrate that data, and by recognizing that data is the most important commodity that an enterprise has. That was the motivation for the open data initiative. It's really interesting because when you think about competition, I'm sure internally, it's hard to get people to want to be transparent and share data. I would say that's a cataclysmic shift in a company to say, "Hey, we're going to open up our data to competition." I would speak to different companies of different DNA. If you think about PostScript from day one, PostScript was an open standard. We published the standard, so if people wanted to copy us, they could copy us. We believe that PDF was also an open standard. In fact, the reason why you have these trillions of PDFs, I think, have a lot to do with the fact that it's an open standard. The trade-off that companies have to realize is that do the benefits associated with open data and having an entire ecosystem of innovation that focuses on that open data, is that better or is trying to keep it proprietary and be island unto yourself? Maybe if I describe it that way, which is you can get millions of developers and an entire ecosystem of innovation to build on top of your platform, or you can keep it proprietary and have an island unto itself, it makes it a pretty easy argument as to why open data will always win. How do you build a healthy dissatisfaction with the status quo in your company? That is such a great question, David. It's such a great question because your job as a leader is always being unreasonable. I like to say one of the expressions that I hope people use for me is that I have unreasonable expectations. I think the amazing thing is if you have unreasonable expectations and a great employee based like we have, they always amaze you with their ingenuity, so they'll do what's required. As it relates to the stock price, I think the message that I try to communicate to the employees is the stock price is what it is because of the great work that we did a year ago or two years ago or the decisions we made. You've got to plant that flag, that old book who moved my cheese and you've got to try and create this new flag planting that you do, which is whether it's for product reasons or financial reasons, just a more aspiring initiative for people to align around and rally around. Then the second thing I think you have to do, and people say sometimes they use the cranky word that I'm cranky in these meetings, you don't want to be complacent. You have to again find the real thought leaders in your company who say, "You know what? We're resting on our laurels and what are the key things that they want to do?" How you find those individuals who can carry the torch and have this ideas of what you can do next and give them the power and give them the sponsorship and give them the air cover, I think that's how you send this message that don't look back. I mean, it's all about looking forward and then you find perhaps a couple of you mentioned this, a couple of competitors who you look at it and say, "You know what? They're coming after us and so do we want to allow that company to come after what is rightfully our opportunity?" It's a little bit of a carrot and a little bit of a stick. As you gave me that answer, it reminded me when I visited Walmart years ago, Sam Altman put up a sign in the lobby that says, "Today's stock price is X, tomorrow is up to you." I like that. I figure you would like that. It seems like customers want so much more than product today. Tell us how digital experiences work and why they're so important. Like you said, David, I think we have this fundamental belief that the physical good if you're selling a physical good is just one part of the entire experience of how a consumer is now interacting with every enterprise. Again, you're the expert in this, but the entire food industry has changed where whether you want to order on a phone and get it delivered or specify the ingredients. I think putting yourself in the consumer's shoes, I've always said, we build the best products when we build them for ourselves as well and by usage of products. I think for me just recognizing that it's how people discover about your product, how they use your product, what the post sales support is about a product. In many ways, that's way more important than the actual attributes of the physical product. If you're selling a physical product and if you're selling software, the software's ability to delight you when you have to do something actually is the highest predictor. The way we do it, every employee in the company, one year, David, was incented on retention. By sending the message that it's not about customer acquisition, but that it's about customer satisfaction because the great thing about a subscription business is that recurring revenue is 90%. The thing about a subscription business that's terrifying is every day, you want to make sure that the customer is still willing to pay you whatever they've paid you last month. I think that keeps us on our toes. I think thinking about the entire way in which a company interacts with a consumer, I think is a really great rallying cry for our employees. I'd like you to give some advice to the creative people that are listening into this conversation. We both know there's something really special about creative people, the insights and instincts they have and how they think. What would you say to them about leadership and viewing themselves as leaders and how to step forward? Well, first to your point, I think everybody talks about STEM and STEM is incredibly important, you know, science, technology and math. But I've always used the expression steam and we add arts to it and we say the world without creativity and arts would be an incredibly boring place. And so, you know, steam is clearly an area that's passion for us. And you know, I think painting pictures, I mean, if you were to consume, let's say, a magazine and it was only text without pictures or if you didn't have a game with animation or interactivity. So I think this nature of storytelling and talking about how storytelling really transforms the world and the power of storytelling, that's one way in which. And you know, the world is as brilliant as it is because of people who are right brain and left brain and we have a passion for the arts, we support the arts, we recognize why it's important. And I really believe in my gut that it doesn't matter whether you're a K through 12 student or the largest enterprise in the world, you want to tell your story and you want to tell your story with pictures and video and animation and that's creative. And you know, we all see great creativity when it's delivered and whatever we can do to champion it in schools with art institutions, with museums globally is something that we're very passionate about David. But there are enough people in the world who actually believe that it's our job just sponsoring them and bringing it to the forefront rather than trying to create it. I mean, we're in this incredible position. We're an enabler rather than actually the creator of this creativity. You know, you have multiple platforms and your company's been recognized for being so innovative. You're always in the top 10 by all the magazines that really look at innovation . Can you tell us about a recent innovation in your company and how it actually came about? I'll speak about one product. I mean, the challenge we're doing that David, as you know, is when you have multiple products so in your case, multiple businesses and you pick one, you're liable to, you know, upset some other people. But I'll give you one product that I think a lot of your viewers hopefully would also love. It's a product called Adobe Scan. And you know, you just recognize that I have this phone now with me and you carry the phone wherever you go. And you know, how many times do you want to take a picture of something? You want to convert it into a document. You want to edit it. And so it's a very simple application, but it's called Adobe Scan. And what it allows you to do is PDF creation for the mobile era. So the value proposition of this was very simple. And it was just how can we allow people to do PDF creation for the mobile era? How do you sign it? Isn't it crazy in this day and age that somehow people think that a physical signature is more legitimate than an electronic signature? And so we created this product. And the fact that every employee in the company, we try and make sure that the beta for our products, every employee in the company gets to try it out first and use it and give feedback, that team has just hit it out of the part. It is one of these really cool products. And then we said to ourselves, if you've created this PDF, how can you use artificial intelligence and machine learning with another feature called liquid mode in Ac robat to allow you to take any PDF that was created 20 years ago and make it completely responsive on a mobile device. So you don't have to pinch and zoom on this document. You can just actually, you know, it reflows it for you. So I think painting this picture of a couple of real pain points. And if you have that visceral reaction of, yes, I've experienced it and why can we solve it, I think that led to Adobe Scan. I mean, there's so many such stories. So one thing David, I worry about is sometimes we use stories that were successful products. I think leaders should also use products that were perhaps not as commercially successful, but that the learnings enabled us to do something very profound later. And I think part of what we try and do it Adobe is let's also celebrate, you know, products that were perhaps not commercial successes, may have been even commercial failures. But the learnings from that were really what enabled us to build another product. And so those are two examples maybe of what we try and create in the company. Give an example of something that was commercially successful and how it came to being and celebrate people, but equally celebrate people who tried something, took the initiative, may not have been successful, but we got some great learnings out of it that helped us down the road. Listen to that conversation there. You almost cringe. It was hard for you to say failure. It was hard for you to get that word out of you. How do you view failure? Again, I have been singularly so successful at so many failures in my life. You learn from failure David. And you know, I really believe that my startup that I founded, Pictra, this was in the early 90s and we said to ourselves, people will want to share images. It was just the, you know, digital technology was just happening. We thought analog film was going to get completely revolutionized by the digital SLRs and digital cameras were happening by all it means that was a failure, right? I mean, we raised a lot of money. I actually gave back the money that we raised because I said, you know, I don't believe that a business model exists for that. You can argue a business model still doesn't exist for that even though people talk about advertising. But what I learned from that was so invaluable for me in terms of how I think about an opportunity, how I motivate people, how I build teams that at least for me, that was probably the most seminal learning in my life. And that was, you know, by all means a failure there. I said it and it actually came off. It rolled off the tongue easily. You know, how do you think about aspirational goal setting and how do you do it in a way that motivates your team? I like to say that if you can connect the dots of where you are today and where you want to go. It's probably not aspirational enough, David. And so I think our job as leaders going back to the flag planting comment that we had, it's painting that picture of with our subscription business, we said, we're selling boxes to people. We ship a product every 12 or 18 months. We need to completely transform to the point where we can ship software every day that we can attract customers all around the world with a very low upfront price where we have to constantly demonstrate innovation for them to be retained as customers. We had no idea how we were going to completely change it. The finance group had to move from one form of revenue recognition to a completely different form of revenue recognition. The legal team had to completely transform. It was one of those aspirational things where we believe we could deliver a better product, attract new customers, serve customers better. But we really had no idea of how to connect all the dots to get there. And so we created this culture of experimentation. We created leaders when we tried to empower to go off and do that. And I think that's what we have to continue to do, which is you set this aspir ational goal. And if you can connect all the dots, it's probably not aspirational enough. And I think my learning in this is that some people get motivated by financial aspirations. Other people get motivated by product aspirations. You can't restrict yourself as a leader to only dealing with one constituency of employees or stakeholders. You have to deal with all of them. And you have to be just as aspirational in all of them. Because if you're not, then they're not working together to accomplish what you think is potential. I read somewhere that you describe yourself as the chief evangelist officer. What's the sermon from the mount from the CEO of Adobe? Well, we're only as good. I think you pointed out you said what Sam Walton said at Walmart. We're only as good as the next innovation that we're going to work on. And so are we constantly changing and evolving and I think being dissatisfied with the status quo. And I think the sermon to our employees is that we have this incredible canvas on which we have these myriad opportunities that we can innovate in. The sermon for the financial community is we're just getting started in terms of the potential of how digital is going to be a tailwind and the growth opportunities that we have. And I think most important the sermon for our customers is that we will understand your pain points, but it's our job. Understanding how technology can be brought to bear to help you solve your pain points. And last but not least, I think as our company has evolved, the platform that we now have accorded to us, David, in terms of how we use that platform to do good and serve the communities. I think that's an important part of the responsibility that we have as well as a company. Coaching is so important. How do you go about coaching yourself for top performance? Two lessons maybe in that realm. David, the first is the more I have matured in my own leadership style, I think recognizing how your superstars change very significantly the trajectory of the company and are you coaching them and are you spending a disproportionate time with them to achieve their potential? I think that's an area that I've tried to change a lot. The second thing is I had this mentor very early in my career at Apple and he was constantly dissatisfied with what I did. And while I was working for him that irked me at times, but I recognized as I realized what he was doing was that he saw a potential in me and he saw maybe a spark in me and he was constantly challenging me to do things. And so I use the word challenge just as frequently David. I'm challenging people to try and do some things that we both would have deemed impossible. And they again, amaze you. They amaze you because they figure it out. So I think for me coaching is sort of constantly trying to say what more can we do? What more can we do? I think that's an area and spending a disproportionate amount of my time with those who are really moving the needle. I think the second thing that I try and do is in companies of our scale, there 's so much that stable sticks. And my every year I try and sit down with my leadership team and I try to cascade it and say what are the two or three things that we can do where we can look back at the end of the year and say not only have we grown as individuals, but we've changed the trajectory of the company. And if you can focus them on the boulders, you know, that old parable of if you have boulders and if you have a whole bunch of gravel and you put the gravel in the bottle in the bottle, the boulder is not going to fit. I think that's the coaching thing that I've also tried to do, which is let's focus on the disproportionately high impact things because that's going to move the needle for us as a company. You know, you really raise the bar for people. Obviously you're constantly challenging them. You have so much energy and you have a smile literally that lights up the room. You know, I have a hard time seeing you as this tough guy, okay? But you know, I've learned a little bit more about you, but where's your energy come from? Do you have any daily rituals that keep you pumped up and ready to go? I think you get a lot of energy from your family, David. And you know, it's you're always trying to be the best individual that you can, but I love building products. I love building products. I love imagining the possibilities you talked about a dreamer. And I think again, my parents always instilled in me this sort of intellectual curiosity. And I'm sure you feel this way, David. I mean, the world has become so expansive. We're constantly learning. And if you come into that saying, you know, I'm always learning, you know, that 's what gives me my energy to be a better individual, to be a better family member, to be a better leader. And the day you stop thinking you can learn, I think you're done. You know, speaking of family, I understand that you called your parents every day. You started out your day that way. I do. And it doesn't matter where I am in the world. It's a ritual that, you know, technology's been great because nowadays it's a video conference. And I did that today. I did that yesterday. It doesn't matter where in the world I am. And it's one of those things that just keeps me balanced and reminds me of the people who have had the kind of influence in my life that's given me these opportunities, David. And I bet your parents are just cheering you on every day. Well, they're actually always asking me if I, you know, don't call it the time. What kept me waiting? So the bar is high even in the Narayan parents' house. You know, this has been so much fun. And I'd like to have some more with a lightning round of Q&A if you don't mind. Are you a game here? I'm game. Okay. What three words best describe you? Curious, competitive, unreasonable. Favorite color and why? Blue. I love water. I used to sail competitively in India. And so I sailed for India for India in a nation game. So blue. Favorite Adobe product you use when you're just playing around. I'd have to say imaging and Photoshop. If you could be someone else for a day, who would it be and why? You know, I have a great relationship with my kids, but one of my kids so that I can understand how better to support them in whatever they want to do moving forward. Your biggest pet peeve. People who say it can't be done. What's something about you that few people would know? The fact that I really wanted to be a journalist. Do you have any hidden talents? None, but as you know, I'm an aspiring golfer. And very good one, by the way. Shandy, we're about to wrap this up. I have two more questions for you. Okay. What three bits of advice would you give aspiring leaders? Follow your passion. Hire people very carefully. Remove obstacles that come in the way of people accomplishing their dreams. And you've got, obviously, what most people would think would be a 24/7 pressure with all kinds of competing demands. What advice can you give on how to get the balance that we all need in life? I don't know that I have balanced, David, but what I have is multiple passions. And different people do it a different way. I just have multiple passions because then none of them seems like it's worth. You know, Shandy, I have to tell you, after this conversation, I would have loved working for a guy like you. Someone who raises the bar, has that passion and helps you become the best you can be. And I just really, really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to do it. I really appreciate you having me, David. And thank you. Well, I know one of your major takeaways from that conversation is that before you can lead others towards a compelling vision, you have to identify a compelling vision for yourself. Now mine, for example, is to make the world a better place by developing better leaders. Now this is something that when I wake up every day, I'm excited about it. I can't wait to go work with my team to figure out how we can take it to the next level because I know the world needs better leaders. And it's one of the reasons why I'm doing this podcast. I want to help you be the best leader that you can be. Now in my new book, Take Charge of You, we walk readers through an exercise called The Single Biggest Thing. The idea here is to identify a compelling vision for the future, a goal you can strive for that brings you joy. If you're not excited about what you're working towards, you shouldn't be doing it. What I want you to do this week is to identify the single biggest thing for you personally. From there, go do the exact same thing for the team or the company you lead. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is the great leaders ignite the hearts and minds of the people they lead. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]