Welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Today's guest is Jenny Rometty, the former chairman and CEO of IBM. Now, I've got a question for you. Have you ever felt uncomfortable at work? I'm talking about that feeling when you're offered a new leadership opportunity , or when your boss wants you to give that big presentation in front of the team, or whatever moment where you're being asked to swim out past the breakers. Well, our guest today, Jenny Rometty says, "You will only grow when you're uncomfortable." So that feeling, that pit in your stomach in those situations, let me tell you, those are the moments when you have the opportunity to grow as a leader. Before Jenny was appointed CEO, she had risen through the ranks at IBM, a company she had worked at for 40 years. And so what you're about to hear from Jenny, and what you'll learn from her journey to become CEO of IBM, is that great leaders are comfortable being uncomfortable. There's a lot for us to learn here, so let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Jenny Rometty , the former chairman and CEO of IBM. Jenny, thanks so much for taking the time for being on the show. My pleasure, David. Pleasure to do this with you. First off, Happy New Year. Have you made any New Year's resolutions? You're not going to keep? You know, it's funny, we had a little New Year's gathering, and I had hats for everyone to write in their New Year's resolution. I think people are so tired, nobody wanted to write anything, so we're done. You know, Jenny, I want to start out with the obvious. You were the first female CEO for IBM. That's a company that you work for for 40 years. Where were you when you got the call, and how did it feel to get that invitation to head such an iconic company? It was, let's see, October 2011. I remember that distinctly. But it's funny, until you get the job, you never think you're going to get the job. And I was sitting in my office, and my boss called me. And it was really quite a very short conversation. He just said, "Well, you're going to be the ninth CEO." And I really, what I remember is thanking him. I remember hanging up the phone. I remember sitting there quietly for a minute. I did call my husband because I've been sworn to secrecy. And honestly, I got up and did the rest of my meetings. Yeah, you had to think, "Holy cow. Here we go." That came later. That came later. In the moment, it was just sort of a bit of a stunned silence. I remember when I was coming up in business, I worked for PepsiCo. And we modeled a lot of what IBM was all about. And IBM was known for being a culture of blue suits, white shirts, red ties. What do you wear on your first day when you joined him? That first day of your 40-year tenure. I can't exactly remember what I wore, although what I wore was written about many times. I mean, that's another topic of being a woman in business and how many times people would comment on my clothing. But what I thought about more on that first day was where I went, not when I wore. And so I had really thought hard because I knew that this was going to be a tough journey ahead. And I chose to go to IBM Research 7 AM because I knew that this was going to have to be a replatforming of the company. And that would require a lot of the technical skill. And it wanted it to be really clear that's where I was going to be that moment at 7 AM. And so I did a broadcast from there for all 400,000 employees, but it was from IBM Research. So I don't remember what I wore. I remember where I went. I understand you were a bit reluctant to make a big deal out of being the first female CEO of IBM. Why was that? You know, Dave, and I think there are a lot of women that feel this way, certainly of my generation. I always felt I wanted people to recognize what I did and be commended for my work I did, right? Just my work, not that I was a woman. So I never focused on this point. In fact, I probably went to pretty much extremes about don't recognize me. And even when I was named CEO, people said to me, hey, don't do media. Don't do anything. You don't want to be known as the first woman CEO. You want to be known as a good CEO of IBM. And so I was really, for the first several years, very reticent about that. So I stayed away from women's conferences. I mean, I would do things internally, but I really didn't do anything. And I have to say it's one of the things I reflect on. And I turned around on this topic that I came to view as a big mistake, because I said, as time went on, what became clear and clear to me, I was in such a privileged position that it was an obligation to help others. And I really came to understand this feeling of you cannot be, which you cannot see, and that there were so many people who said, look, I see you. I mean, I would remember this over the years when I would give a presentation. I can remember many years ago, I was in Australia. I gave a presentation. A man came up to me. It was on financial services. And I thought he was going to tell me what a great presentation it was. And he says to me, I wish my daughter had been here. And those events would continue to happen. And you realize how much it means to other people, not yourself to other people , to have someone to look at. And so while I felt that way at the beginning and was really coached that way by others who I know were well intended, I think it was the wrong thing. And so I came full circle on that to really see and tell people how important it is for you to be a role model to help other people. I couldn't agree with you, Warren. In fact, in this podcast, my daughter did a podcast with Indra Nui and myself on her new book on family work balance. And I realized just how much it meant to my daughter, Ashley, to be able to talk to Indra just how successful Indra has been. And she was so excited I was doing this podcast with you because I think you really do show people what's possible. And so on behalf of my daughter, I want to thank you for showing women that you can really rise to the top. There's no doubt about that. I've heard you talk quite a few times and you talk a bit about the difference between a job and a career. What's that difference from your perspective and how has that principle played out in your life and career? You know, to me, this is something that over time it's been an arc that has become more and more important. But I can kind of remember a dawning of like the first moment I really understood that. And I think it's really important to particularly people coming into the workforce now. And so the first time I really recognized that difference, I was probably 22 years old. I had gone to Northwestern and General Motors had given me a scholarship to go to Northwestern. They had been very generous with me. I could never have afforded it otherwise. So when I left and graduated, I had a choice. I could work for GM or not. And I felt a great obligation given this huge investment they'd made me in a very expensive school. It was no strings attached. But I went to work for GM. And I'm very appreciative. So I always say that to Mary Barr. I'm very appreciative of that opportunity. But what I saw was, you know, I would come to work every day and I wasn't as passionate about cars as Mary is and others. And I also looked at people around me and it was more like a job to them. And I said at a really young age, I could see this difference between a job and a career. And you know, I had people that they would come at seven, leave it three. And I was thinking, no, no, no. There's got to be more to this. If you put all of this effort into something. And I felt like I couldn't crystallize what that meant then. But it's when I left for IBM because I said, no, I want to apply technology to really make a difference in something. And I knew technology. Now mind you, this is back in 1980. And that's when I moved. And so over time, I have always felt my say to people, you know, what you work on, you know, everything you do in every day isn't like that. It's not like everything, every activity, you know, drives some greater purpose . But in the general that it's got to be towards that. So it's either a company who you believe in its purpose and therefore you're doing something that furthers it. I would go on and work on things like AI that would help healthcare. And now you mentioned what I do now. And it's got a lot to do with the work I've done in education and opportunity for people. And to me, that is just so important that wherever you're at, you feel like there's either your job or the company is headed in sort of a North Star. And that to me, I felt like I said, I learned early in life and that I feel you 're really lucky when you can align those things. I want to get into a lot of the exciting things you did at IBM, but I want to go back and take you back a little bit. Tell me a story about your upbringing that really shaped who you are as a leader. Well, this is clearly my mother. Actually, she's with me now. Right now I've got to help her with some health things. But my mom, I was raised by a single mother. So not unlike, there are many people out there like this today. And when I say single, my mom, I was born when my mom was very young. And I have three other brothers and sisters. And we did have a father, obviously, but about the time I was 15, 16 years old, just really out of the blue, my father told my mother he no longer cared about any of us and frankly didn't care how she made a living or if she made a living, if she had money or if she took care of us and he was gone. My mother found herself in this position of four children, no education beyond a high school degree and never worked a day in her life. And we really went through a period of time where my mom almost lost the house, went on food stamps, went on social aid, etc. But my mother was really determined that this would not be how this could end. And she went back to school. I helped really raise my brothers and sisters because she had to go back to a community college to get enough of an education, to get a better job, to get us off a financial aid. And I said, I never saw my mother cry. She never complained. I could see quiet, sad moments. And at the end of the day, what that really taught me and it's probably the biggest thing that's to this moment influenced me is that I watched my mom. She was not going to let my father define her as a dropout, a divorce, a person on wealth. She was not. And she was determined that only she'd define who she was. And that idea that only you define who you are is something to take control of your life and that no one else determines that for you. And I also saw in that my mother, my mom was smart. She just didn't have access to a lot of things. So the conclusions you draw about people, about their education level or where they live are wrong. And so when my mother had some access, then she was able to really get us to a different spot. So it's kind of funny how life comes full circle. But I do now with 110. But it also will come back to what it led even in IBM, my strong feelings about how technology had its good and bad sides for a lot of the population. But the biggest thing she taught me was only you define who you are. So and I think that's important because people feel they're a victim of other things and they're not. You can grab hold and if you don't define who you are, by the way, someone else will define you. And there have been those moments when I've let others start to do that or for a company because it's true for a person, a company, a country, you have to pull it back and define yourself. That makes so much sense. Do you remember a time or a story where you had an incident at IBM where you literally thought of your mother and said, my mom would do this and I'm going to do it too. Well, I think early on, back when I mentioned to you that I didn't do any media , it's ironic now because I do it a lot. But early on when I wouldn't do these things, I started to watch and say, well, if I don't speak up, they're going to define who we are. So whether they want to call us old tech or do something like this, right, I thought back to that story, right? Either I define who are or they're going to define us. And that would be one of those examples. Yeah, that's a great one. And I couldn't agree more with you about your mom being smart and she could have been the CEO with the right kind of background and environment. I feel the same way about my parents, high school education, but they're smarter than me and they gave everything to me. I've heard you say that the number one thing a company should hire for is the propensity to learn. Share a story of how this always learning mentality really helped you personally in your career. So this is interesting because I actually think this is almost one of the underlying issues of our time now because of the rate the technology is changing. And even with COVID now, people having to change jobs. So I go back to my mom. So the first point about her having to get a new set of skills. But where crystallized for me was when I began my job as CEO, it was clear to me, I'd have three big transformations. It soon became clear. We'd need a new technology platform. We'd have to build completely new skills in the workforce. And we'd also have to change how we did work. So those are three big transformations. So skills. And that was a long journey in itself we can come back to. But one of the things I noticed, one of the very first things was most of the 2012, trying to hire cyber skills, couldn't get them anywhere. And even today, they're very scarce. So we had this brainstorm about going to schools that had kids high schools that we could work with the community college and get them out even before they had a college degree and could they do these jobs, blow and behold, they could. Very interesting point. Another point then, I had all the IBMers to transform to bring new skills. I thought, well, boy, do I have to bring in all new people? So we did lots of external hiring and also offered lots of education. What did I learn? It had nothing to do with age. It had nothing to do with background. It was all about this. If people had a curiosity and wanted to learn were the ones that made the transition, none of the typical stereotypes that you otherwise thought. And it was also not the degree that they had, right? So it wasn't their age. It wasn't the degree. It wasn't any of this. And so I put all those three together. And to me, it changed the way we hired. So when we hire now, we do testing for curiosity, drive, grit, that ability and is best you can test for these things because nowadays, even the half life of technology skills is three to five years. So I don't want people who only want to do one thing forever because if you do, that's really what they want to do. And if you're in an industry that's rapidly changing, so to me, it became the most important thing to do. And one more thing, and again, this is all for aspiring leaders and the like, from a personal perspective, I have always been someone really curious. I never wanted to be taught what and how to memorize. I always wanted to know how, how, how. So then I always felt like I could go back to the roots to figure something out . But that whole idea is what makes you, I think, is a leader really good because whenever you listen to people, you listen with intent to learn something. And it has a really interesting byproduct out of it. If you are always listening with intent to learn, I'm telling you, you will grow a huge network because people genuinely believe you care because you do genuinely care . And it isn't that you're just talking for what's in it for you. You're talking for what's in it for them as well. And so I think the byproduct of that curiosity is for anyone, A, if you're confidence in your job and B, it is the way to create a whole long lasting network with relationships. Couldn't agree more. And you know, when I look at your career and the number of different jobs that you had at IBM. And imagine that you were pushed out of your comfort zone several times with various promotions over the years. How did you learn to adapt so successfully taking on new and different roles? I'm not sure I always did from the beginning. Okay. So for maybe you did, maybe you were like infinitely, you know, confident in every role. I don't know. I don't think so, but I might have acted that way. Yeah. Well, okay. So this is a very big sort of, I'm going to stereotype. I think it's a very big difference between men and women, by the way, in the general. So if I can, one of the fast stories of mine was one of, when I made one of my biggest career changes. So I had a very, I would call what IBM would have been a traditional career of. You move in, I came in as an engineer, moved through that, went into sales and marketing. I was on my way back then. The job would have been a branch manager, wonderful things. And someone came to me and said, you know what? We're going to start a consulting business. And we're going to hire all these people from the outside. And we think that you would be really good at this. It was one of the very first times. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to divert off of this path. And I hemmed and hawed. And you know, it was my husband. He'd say, well, Jenny, consulting, you know, it's all this engineering problem solving. These all sound like things you're good at. Why are you so worried about this? And the more I thought about it, first lesson was, you know what? I mean, is a really valued external career, valued by the external world. I was getting really good at IBM stuff, but like, what's that worth in the external world? So my first lesson I'm being willing to change was that. The second was time would go on. And that turned out great, successful, et cetera, went on to other jobs. And I remember being offered a very large job. And the man who I worked for, he came to me, said, Jenny, I'm going to get a new job. I am going to go to Asia, and I think you should take my job. And I looked at him, I said, boy, now this is a very big global management job. I said, I'm not ready for this job. Maybe two more years I could be ready for it. He said, go to the interview, because I had it with his boss. So I went to the interview the next day. He's telling me why I should do it, this and that. And he offers me the job. And I said, let me go home and talk to my husband about it. It kind of looked at me. Okay. I went home, I talked to my husband's name is Mark, you know, Mark did. I talked to Mark and Mark looked at me. He kind of, I went on and on, like usually he's like sitting there and he goes, Jenny, do you think a man would have answered that offer that way? And I said, no. He said, I know you. You're going to do it. You're going to, you know, six months, you're going to have said, I've learned everything. I'm bored, I got to move on. This is it. And I know these other people, you're better than all of them. And it was, that was when to me it crystallized that story some have heard that I say growth and comfort never coexist, never. And it really was in that moment that I really realized my mistake and I went in the next day, I took the job, he looked at me and he said, don't do that again. I said, I understand. And the point was, you know, you got to have confidence. And even if you're not, by the way, because very natural, don't show it then. Right, because you will only grow when you're uncomfortable. And I've talked to so many people around the world that resonate with that. And I try to say to them, I actually got to the point where I love to feel uncomfortable because then I'm like, yes, I'm learning, I'm learning. And so I would even look to put myself as a CEO, particularly in those positions, right? You know, I'd be seeing a client that ran a railroad. I got to learn railroad business before I get there, you know, and it was like, if you start feeling like you're not, I would say to people, if you're feeling, you know, you are so comfortable in a role, you do need to change it because you are not learning. So growth and comfort never coexist. And by the way, I felt that way about a company and a country too on that one. That's really interesting because I never said I was not ready for anything. I've never seen any man ever say, I'm not ready for anything. What is it about women that makes them think they've got to have those two years that you thought you needed initially? What's in that? There've been many studies on this and you and you probably know it. And I don't know the deep down roots of it. I know that and I would actually, you know, with my own teams catch this over time. I would say to them, it seems like our discussions on our male colleagues are about their potential and our discussions on the women colleagues when it's time for promotion are about, well, what experience did they have to be able to do it? I said, this is a very interesting difference here. One is you're saying about what he could do. The other is you're saying, well, let's prove it by what she did do. And so that feeling that I felt many of my female colleagues had was, well, if I hadn't done it yet, I couldn't do it. And it's a little bit of a circle. So the best way I know how to deal with that is A, to be really aware of it, right? And call people, right? We would be very aware this was happening. And also, I think it really helped because we'd have these conversations with many of our women. By the way, we have the best women diversity and technology upfront about, okay , we know they're going to react that way, okay, often. So help move them along. And we did. And I think that, well, the results speak for themselves. So when was it, when you were coming up IBM where you actually looked yourself in the mirror and said, you know, I can be a CEO. This is something that I have the capability of doing it. And was there a moment in your career that really accelerated your trajectory and your belief in yourself? Did you have a moment like that, Dave? You know, I just kind of did every job as well as I could do it. And then kind of look at who had the next job and said, what do they have that I don't have and tried to do that? I don't know how it happened, but somehow I became a CEO. Yeah, I really do feel the same way about that. You know, it doesn't mean it's the only formula because there are lots of people who go, that's what I want to be. And I, you know, chart a course. And I didn't. I always felt that if you did a really good job in this role, the next role would open up and unfold itself. And in fact, if anyway, if you chart it too specific, you'd just be disappointed and work. And so I believed in that. Now, in retrospect, if you ask me that, I would tell you that the job that probably made the biggest difference for me was when we acquired Price Waterhouse Cooper's Consulting. IBM had a technical consulting group, I would call it, of 30,000 people. And we brought PWC. And this was the year 2002. And they were another 30,000. And at that time, there had been previous big consulting acquisitions. All had failed. All had failed. And then here we came with this one. The largest acquisition we'd ever done at that time. And I was asked to run it. Actually, I was actually asked to go run it. I was actually going to help the due diligence and what we were doing. I believed in it. I was running another part of services at the time. And in going to help, it became clear I should be the one to run it. And what I learned in that from that whole experience was what it takes, again, 30,000, 60,000 people who had to merge, you couldn't run them separately. So it wasn't like buying parts. It wasn't like buying something else that could stand on its own. These two had to come together and really create one plus one equals three. It really had to be that way. It wasn't a product going through a distribution channel, nothing like that. And so it taught me, probably the biggest thing it taught me was this point about both being in service of clients, which is different than serving clients. And the second thing was how to help unmask people build conviction about something. And so it was probably after that. I can remember when I finally took the job, I said to myself, well, this is going to be really good or this is going to kill me. And it was hard, but we successfully, I mean, today it's half of IBM. And so in the end, it worked. But so many lessons of it. And it was another one of those, long after my other story, one of those big challenges. And if you come through the other side, but I think what it taught me was I could do things on very big scale then. And that was really to your point. When did you feel you could have some confidence? Yeah. And now as a systems engineer, you had to be an individual contributor for a while. When were you able to make that transition to really be a people leader? I mean, you obviously have great taking people with you skills. Yeah, as do you, my friend. You know, I think you make that transition again, now that we are like old dogs to think back up a couple points. I'm a big believer of watching other leaders and learning from them. I think you can learn from everybody you've ever, good and bad, by the way, that you've ever worked with and for. And you make this transition from focusing on you being the best to focusing on bringing out the best in someone else. I don't think it happens like a light switch. It kind of moves over time. When you recognize that you get more joy in someone else's accomplishments than your own. I worked for someone who I thought did that. And he probably brought that out the most to me at some point mid-career that I really, he took such pride in what we did and never about what he did. And that to me is that moment when you make that transition. And there was a, I can't remember, oh, I wish I could remember if it was Ben Van Franklin, Abraham Lincoln or if it was, I should remember who said it. It was, there's nothing one can't accomplish if you don't care who gets credit for it. And it could have been human rival Reagan. And I think it was me. You think, I think it was me saying though, right? It was great, yeah. If you take that attitude, I think you're surprised at what you can actually get done. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, speaking of getting something done, I mean, when you came into IBM, you had one heck of a tough job ahead of you. You had to basically reinvent the company and you did it and you returned billions of dollars back to the shareholder in terms of the share buybacks and, you know, a really good dividend. But you had to go through a pretty tough stretch where the company stock didn't really grow. That's always tough for a CEO. We have a tendency to be look at that stock price every day. How did you keep yourself motivated during that time? How did you keep yourself with the kind of energy I know that you have? I mean, you've got tremendous positive energy. You know, a couple of points I would make that I think now are good advice. First off, you know, you were asking me a minute ago about my first days in the job, right? And the first evening after I'd been told, I'd gone home and Mark had flown into town. He was there and he had arranged for just a dinner for he and I at the top of my building, kind of an event space. No one else was in it. I can remember looking out over the sky and you can see the twinkling lights of New York City. And I said to him, it was the first time I think I really understood the word stewardship. I said, you felt this gravity of G there. Let's see a million employees, pensioners. We have largest pension in the world, right? Yes, your shareholders. You have these clients of how many people is you? And you don't have to go far to find someone who worked for IBM or had a relationship or something like that that you're responsible for. But with that understanding of stewardship, I felt came this view that I was taught, you do what's right for the long run, even if it's not right for the short run. And so there were many decisions I had to make that I knew were right. And I knew probably my successor would benefit from them, not me. But I also know if I didn't do them, I could likely kill the company. And so that all equals that word conviction. And so I think how anybody gets through those times is conviction. And there were times that were rough. And by the way, yes, the share price and go up, but we did return a lot in dividends. Okay. So they didn't get nothing. And someone wise told me, you run the company for the owners, not the renters. All right. So the renters meaning in and out of the stock caring about it. If I own it, okay, if it doesn't go up in that period, that's fine, I'm getting my dividends. But again, to your point, everyone looks. And my mom would say she'd watch television and she said, Oh, Jenny, sometimes they're so mean to you on television. My answer to her is I'm saying mom, turn it off. Okay. I'll tell you when to turn it back on. I said, I'm very clear what I have to do. And I know what I have to do. And so a conviction, B, it is that idea that you can, and I don't know if you do it, Dave, I do compartmentalize things. And that does allow you to keep moving forward, right? I don't go backwards a lot. You do it, you handle it, or something bad happens here, put it in a box. I go on to the next topic. I don't drift it over into it. So this idea about conviction compartmentalizing and just like this, always looking forward, it's always forward to me. Okay. Something bad happens. That goes back to my being brought up in my, you know, a really bad thing happened in my youth, but we all turned out, okay, my brothers and sisters are more successful than I. And so this idea that, hey, bad things do not determine your future. And so that to me was the secret about how did you do it? I would tell people, if you start with conviction, you can handle anything. And then this maniacal focus on, okay, it happened, now move forward, take an action and move forward, right? You've got a very tough mindset. You know, you can handle it. You got a thick skin. Is that something you've always had or did you just learn it as you took on more and more responsibility? No, no, it got thicker with time. There's no doubt. And I think that's a great piece of coaching to people to realize that it will get thicker with time. And actually, it's those tough things that make it thicker in the end, right? Yeah. Yeah. And for you, IBM now is so much better off. When you look back, Jenny, what transformation did you lead at IBM that you're the most proud of? You know, the thing people talk the most about was the portfolio, right? I had to re-platform the company for Data and Cloud. So when I left, our cloud business was maybe 24 billion or so, let's say, and half of the portfolio had been transformed. And again, in the public eye, right? So to what you just said a moment ago, while the plane was running or the train was moving, you know, all that had to happen while it was going on. But the part I'm probably most proud about, even though that was essential and it gave them the foundation now going forward for growth, is it's probably what I would call employee engagement. It's a topic near and dear to your heart, which really have a lot to do with the people's skills as well as how they did their work and how they felt about working there . And so that to me is probably the part I'm most proud of because, you know, a more industrial company sets a financial model and then that drives what happens going forward. I think there's another way to run a company, which is what I was switching, which is that an engaged employee really drives what happens with the client and then that drives your return. That is the cycle of the engine I restarted. And so when I left, we had best in class, net promoter score, best in class employee engagement, and we had not started there. So that's the piece I feel the best about. And it was very hard to do, by the way. So it wasn't like along the way. It was easy and it was difficult for a lot of people. And then when I tell people now that have to really transform a company, I say, I know you all think all the time about what you do. Sometimes the how and the who and the skills is the more important part. It sounds like your formula for success is you get to people capability right, then you're going to satisfy more clients and that's how you make money. So many times people start out thinking, Hey, I want to make the money. This is what we have to do. But they don't realize the people capability you have to have to really make that happen. When I think about IBM, it's such an iconic brand. I mean, it's just, it's huge. It's so huge. You almost don't know what it does. It's like if you're just the layman out there, how would you describe what IBM really does today? And by the way, that is a bit of a challenge because for IBM being the grandd addy of all the tech companies, the oldest, right, at over 110 years old, it means that it has had to change many times. You know, it started out is meat slicers and cheese slicers. Okay. Then it was tabulating machines, right? And then it was eventually time cards, I'll punch in and out of work. And then it was eventually the, obviously the birth of the computer, right? But then people remembered it for PCs or point to sale in a grocery store. Printers, we moved out of all of those things over time because they would commoditize. And so today I think the best way to describe what IBM does is it does the mission critical work that runs the world. So there isn't a banking transaction that doesn't go through those systems. There is hardly a credit card, an airplane reservation, a hotel. So it is what's below the surface though, in many cases, right? It's like, you know, they're running in places. And so my best way to describe it is it does a lot of the mission critical work of the world and is probably the easiest way for people to think of it. Your public face of the company was this Watson, okay? Yes. Which is really great. You know, tell me about the origin of Watson and he ended up winning Jeopardy with his AI capability. You know, I always love those commercials. Tell me the story behind Watson and how you developed his personality. Well, such an interesting, I think, learning around this because AI artificial intelligence had been around in and out. It's been decades. We did some of the very early work on it. Carnegie Mellon, MIT, you name it. And the idea, if you think about the errors of computers for kind of my layman view of this originally, like I was talking about IBM originally, there were systems that could count things, tabulate, you know, little beads moving across or little machines , tabulate. Adding things up. Then you got a set of computers that could do logic. If this do that, all right? So you went from counting to this logic. And then what Watson began, it in human eyes for people was a system that could learn. So that was the difference, kind of this third era of computing. So it was in research and that was 2011 when I believe Jeopardy error. And what I think Watson did, in my view, it humanized and made AI understandable to the general public. And honestly, it got away. We couldn't tamp it down because people, A, they understood it. It could no natural language so you could communicate it like you and I are talking. And then it had the ability to learn, put things together and learn from it. And so that brought it to the mass. It democratized this idea, right? And that in some ways was good. In some ways, it was bad because people had huge expectations. And some of our first four rays, right or wrong, back to this mission critical in our DNA, we took on some really tough problems to solve, like healthcare. And I would always say, oh, we're going to do our little piece, but it was hard . While others were looking at pictures of cats and photos, that would have been a way easier route to go with AI. And so we made a lot of progress. Today, what Watson is, it's a platform of artificial intelligence, lots of different routines. But what I would say is it's a trusted AI platform. And that's a very big difference because it means the data you don't learn from someone else's data. So if I'm a competitor, I don't have to worry that your AI systems learning from me, that my data does not become IBM's data, algorithms that check for bias, all these things that were the downside, we can talk about good tech. So today it's a platform more able to be used in any application, but certainly when it was visible like that to the public, it really did, I think, show the world, at least the possibilities of AI, which Dave, those are really still in front of us, right? And the biggest learning is you don't get the benefit of it in a business world unless you really change how work is done. If you try to sprinkle it like salt on things, very marginal benefit. Yeah. Good point. You know, and it's obvious you're passionate about AI and you're an AI commun icator. And by the way, have you always been an AI communicator? I mean, is this something you picked up? No, I have not actually. So that's another good lesson for everybody listening. Find the stuff you're bad at and go work on it because we found in a box recently my very first evaluations of communications from a class in IBM. Oh my God, I was horrible. And so now I feel I'm on the other end of that spectrum. I worked so hard because I think first it started with clients. Someone taught me that times the most valuable thing a client gives you, you must give them something clear in return. And so it started this preparation thing I did with clients. And then it moved to man, when you got to talk to masses of people, two things. They don't exactly remember what you said. They do remember how you made them feel. And then the second was, if they're ever to remember what you say, you must make it easy for them. That is your job, not theirs. And that old, I'd have written you a shorter letter if I had more time. It's so clear. So anyways, I'm a big advocate that people underestimate that that is a science , not an art. Yeah, absolutely. And obviously today now you're moving on to different things and you're making a big difference in the world. And I know you're motivated by a lot of other projects, but I want you to talk about the one 10 initiative and why you're so passionate about it. Okay. So co-founded with Ken Schinoff, Ken Frazier, Ken Schinoff from AMX, American Express, Ken Frazier from Merck, Kevin Sheer, who ran AM, Jen, Charles Phillips, who ran in for, but Ken Frazier and I are the co-chairs. It is to place 1 million black Americans who do not have a college degree, but go back to my stories, I've told you, who do not have a college degree into upwardly mobile middle class jobs. So our point was, I mean, we're very clearly picking what we're working on and strong view, economic opportunity is the greatest equalizer that's out there. And that if you want racial justice, one of the best things companies can do is jobs. That is what we do. It's not talking, talking, talking, is giving people jobs and opportunity. And we don't mean dead-end jobs. We mean take a skills first mentality. If I hire you because you have propensity to learn and some skill, do not demand you have a college degree yet because of all our companies, 88% require college degrees for these good jobs and 80% of black Americans do not have a college degree. This equation will never be solved if you do not change something in what you believe. I, after this 10 years, I was kind of talking about this earlier, I came to be such a strong believer in this skills first mentality, meaning hire because of my skill first , not a degree only world. And we can go on and on into that and how the education system has failed. And trust me, I'm not saying don't get a degree ever because my own experience with this is so many of the people I've hired have then gone back and gotten degrees . IBM, we have our first PhD out of this crowd. So again, not an issue of aptitude, the issue is access. And so we said, this is what we can do. We can go get all our peer companies to sign up, do a 10 years. It's not an easy thing. And the first thing they have to do is go back, check how they do all their hiring. You go test every job to get started. Do you really have to, or have you just become lazy that the college degree is the kind of bar to get in? And that is the case in 95% of the cases. And so then go through the hard work, a change in your job, Rex, then you got to go do the hard work of interviewing differently. Because again, this is a different group of people that start in a different spot. And then you got to do the hard work of how to promote them and move them along . And then we are working with all the places that we say, okay, at Bastion is leading up Atlanta for us from Delta and his colleague companies there. They say, okay, collectively we got a thousand people we can hire in cyber. We're going to the community colleges and other non-for-profits and saying, okay, this is what we need, this kind of skill set credential. Can you do it? We will hire them. And so that's that matching and putting it together. And in our first few months as we ended last year, we did 20,000 hires. But we'll get much closer to 100,000 now again. And it'll just should take off. But already the impact is happening from people opening how they look at candidates. And as I say, it changes the role of HR who went from, you know, I would buy skills ready made to I have to build them more, right? And, but these are, again, I've been added a decade. So we're kind of the longest on this topic. They're more loyal, higher retention. And guess what? We did the work. After a year, they're as innovative. And trust me, I had a company of all PhDs and I had to convince them I wasn't dumbing down my workforce and what I was doing. And that this was the ultimate definition of inclusion in it is. And so anyways, that's in a two minutes, that's 110. I love it. And thank you for for leading the way on that for our country. It's absolutely the right thing to do. And you know, I understand you would tell your IBM team that this is our time. And Jenny, it sounds to me like this is your time. You're really passionate about what you're doing right now. How important is it to have that mindset of this is our time and seizing the day? Well, whenever you do something hard, I think that is critical. Dave, you have always been that way, right? As I watched, you know, your strong view about how to treat employees, right? And really as they were the penultimate of what would eventually then turn out to be your success. And it's not rah-rah, by the way. So this is, I think, an important point. People, I don't want them to miss. Again, another great saying I first learned from Ken Chanal, but it's actually from Napoleon. He said that a leader's job is to paint reality and then give hope. And the point being, hope's got to be based on facts, okay? Otherwise it's just sort of an illusion. And I do think for any of us, when you say this is our time and what I would say it with the IBMers, it was because I had to say the things I believed in that were factual happening. And you know, again, we were the oldest, not the newest tech. And as you know, the world falls in love with the most new shiny object. You would see it in your industry too. And it's easy to forget what is in your heart of what you are in IBM. At its heart, it was a trusted company, right, with the most important assets in the world. And as this era is now evolving, trust is probably one of the ultimate currencies that companies want to deal with. And so as we moved into now, hey, chapter two, they're going to change their back-end systems. It's about data. It's about a cloud for really serious work. That is their time. That's what I meant by that is their time. But I think it's so important to base it on facts, right? Not on what you wish to be true. Well, is this your time? You know, I hope they've all been my time, right? I don't know. Sometimes, yes, I think so. I mean, look, I think the best thing for anybody is if you're authentic, it's your time. And to me, that's the greatest piece of advice I'd give someone. You know, when people say, well, what's the best advice you'd give somebody? And I'd say, be authentic. Yeah, great point. All of this doesn't matter unless you are authentic about it, diversity and inclusion. I mean, you name it. My belief in the transformation of IBM, because authenticity will then lead to your conviction and it will lead to your resilience. Absolutely. And I'm going to about wrap this up quickly. But I want to do a lightning round that I always do with our guests. So here we go. Are you ready for this? I'm ready. All right. Three words that best describe you. Resilient, empathy, logical. If you could be one person for a day besides yourself, who would it be and why? You know, maybe president and I try to get something done. Come on, let's go. That's a joke. Okay. What's your biggest pet peeve? I think my biggest pet peeve is when people have arguments with no facts. What's something about you that few people would know? Probably how much time I spend with my family and my friends and that I view that that is a really important thing for people to have and not for them just to support you, but for you to support them, right? Right. Hell, many of your life. And do you have any hidden talents? Oh, zero. I wish. I have lots of no talents. Oh, come on. You got to have something there. You know what? My grandmother taught me to bake Christmas cookies. There you go. See that? No, we never expect I could do that. You know, that's a hidden talent. And I got to ask you this question. What would be the one bit of advice you'd give every leader who wants to make a significant impact at whatever they're doing? You know, again, I love sometimes remembering these things in quotes and it was Ann Richards, Governor of Texas. He said, "When someone asked a secret or a success, it was passion and persever ance when everyone else would have given up." I think that that is a lot of it. So if you really believe in it, passion and perseverance. Great. You know, and I'm going to ask you one question because I'd be crazy not to. You led this tremendous reinvention. Any advice to people on how to go about reinventing a company or a brand or whatever business you might have? I would put it, if I could only say one thing and I would come to learn this clearly in the middle, is that people often ask the first thing they do to transform a company is change everything. And I actually think the most important first question is understand what must endure. And so understand what must endure, then be willing to change everything else. Because for companies to transform, they do need a ballast or a center or something. And as I was transforming IBM, there would be times I got us into things too far from our core as an example. And I'll always remember my very good friend, you know him well too, Arnie Swar onson. One day I was with Arnie and I said, "It was like a marketing system or something he was going to buy from someone else." I'm like, "How are you going to do it with IBM?" I was like, "Jenny, Jenny, J.J. Hey." He's like, "I rely on you for all that mission critical work. You got to do what IBM is good at." It was an epiphany of a moment that I said, "Yes, he's right." I mean, back to that mission critical. At my heart, I am about trust in mission critical work. And these other things are diversions. And this idea about then move adjacently to what you are so good at, right? Use your strength to power your transformation is the other way to say it. I love that. And so that would be my advice is that and that's that point about know what must endure and then change everything else, not the other way around. Well, Jenny, I have to tell you, I love doing these podcasts because I learned so much. And I learned a lot just by getting to know you even better. You're a good friend for coming on this podcast. I know you don't do it all the time and I really appreciate it. I'm just thankful that our listeners are going to have the opportunity to get your wisdom and you've really provided a lot of it. So thank you. My pleasure, Dave. You made it easy. Thank you. You know, when I was coming up and marketing, I always wanted to become a general manager, but I was really being stereotyped as just a marketing guy. So I knew that I had to demonstrate that I could be a general manager by taking on another function. And when I was running market at Pepsi, that meant that I had to run operations for Pepsi. And I remember when that job came open, I didn't have any operating experience at all. And I remembered how uncomfortable I was when I walked into my boss's office and I said, Craig, I really want to become the chief operating officer of the Pepsi Cola company. He looked at me and he thought I was almost crazy. But then I said it again. I know that if I'm going to stay in this company, I've got to demonstrate that I can be an operator, that I can run a P&L, that I can work with people on the front line. And you've got to give me a chance. And I think he saw that I was really serious about this. And I was so uncomfortable asking him for this opportunity because I knew I was going to be making him uncomfortable. But because I did it, he said yes. And I got the chance to run operations and that's what led me to become president of KFC. Now you might think that was a very bold request on my part, but I'm going to ask you to do something bold this week. Go look for something that makes you uncomfortable. I mean it. Seek it out. Actively look for an opportunity to be uncomfortable. But here's the most important part of this. When you find the opportunity, I want you to really lean in. Give it everything you got because I know these uncomfortable moments are where you're going to grow the most. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders get comfortable being uncomfortable . Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple in each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader you can be. See you next Thursday. Bye.