Well, welcome to How Leaders Lead, where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about, so let's get going. Today's guest is Steve Kerr, the head coach of the Golden State Warriors. Here in his career as a player, Steve won three NBA titles with the Chicago Bulls alongside the one and only Michael Jordan. He then went on to win two more titles, playing for the San Antonio Spurs. And then he became a coach and won three more titles for the Warriors. Needless to say, this guy knows how to win and he knows how to build teams that win. What you may be surprised to learn though is how he does it. You see, the way Steve leads is by understanding the power of the team. You're going to hear all about this on today's episode as well as how you too can apply this team approach to whatever team that you happen to be leading. Let's get right to it. Here's my conversation with my new friend and soon to be yours, Steve Kerr, the head coach of the Golden State Warriors. Steve, I want to thank you for taking the time to have this conversation. Well thanks for having me, David. And hopefully the interview will be more impressive than my golf game was at Cypress that day. Yeah, you and me both. You know, Steve, I'm going to hone in like we talked about on how you lead. And I'd like to start by asking you to share what you said to the Chicago Bulls fans at the celebration rally after you hit the winning shot that clinched the 1997 championship against the Utah Jazz. Share that story. Well, I don't know if that was leadership as much as it was just being a smart ass, but either way, I'm happy to share the story. When we won the championship, we had a celebration at Grant Park a few days after the final game. I think there were like 500,000 people there. I mean, it was an amazing gathering. So I got a chance to take the mic and I figured this is shot of a lifetime. So I might as well make the most of it. And I just made up a story about how Michael Jordan was really nervous and he told Phil Jackson during the timeout that he didn't want to take the last shot because he was kind of afraid. And I'm going to pass to Steve instead. And so I had a great time telling the story and it definitely got a few laughs. People are still bringing it up many years later like you did just now. I remember it to this day. I loved it. And I did think at the time, you know, the best players, best leaders, they do have a sense of humor. How important do you think it is to bring humor into the leadership equation? I think it's huge. I think humor basically can diffuse almost anything. And if there's daily humor, if it's genuine and authentic and a part of your routine, humor has a way of just setting a really good tone. I know that the best coaches that I played for all had really good senses of humor. And it's a big part of how I try to lead for sure. Do you have a story as a coach or someone else that might have coached you that you could share with is where that sits. A humor really came in handy. Well, Greg Popovich was always really, really funny and very sarcastic and wise . He just had a great way of mixing his view of the world with what he saw as the insanity that exists in the world. He would weave it into everything he did. So for example, he would say, what time should we start practice? Maybe we should start a little bit after rush hour because all you guys who live in the rich neighborhood or that traffic probably really bothers you. You know, he would just throw something like that out there randomly. And it would elicit a laugh from everyone. And then of course, we would joke about him being the highest paid coach in the league and living in a big house himself. But humor sets such a good tone. Phil Jackson was amazing. He would splice movie clips into our film edits. So we'd be watching strategy. And then all of a sudden he would just up on the screen would pop up some great scene from Money Python or something that would have us all in stitches. So it's all part of it for sure. Yeah, that's great. You know, Steve, you talk a lot about the joy of playing basketball. Can you describe the components of that joy as you see it and how you try to tap into it as you lead your players? One of the people who really helped me develop my vision for coaching, David was Pete Carroll. I went and visited Pete in Seattle. I had always admired his teams when he coached at USC and then of course with the Seahawks. And I asked him what it meant to be a good coach, how you get there. And he talked about how authenticity is everything. Your players have to feel your authenticity. And he talked about the importance of establishing your values for your team and that those values really have to come from your heart. And he really made a big impression on me. And joy happens to me one of my big values that I live by. I think every day should include joy. So what Pete explained to me is if you want your players to feel joy and you've got to display that every single day, whatever that means, there's got to be a feeling , a sense of joy in your practice facility every single day. And that's how your value of joy will actually come to life. And it was the first time I ever had a coach explain it to me in that regard. But he was really powerful because I watched Pete at work in Seattle with his team and he had this amazing culture and everything was just coming alive. And so I really tried to incorporate joy into our practices right away with the Warriors. And I happened to get really lucky because there's never been a player who's exhibited more joy on the court than Steph Curry. So that was a good partnership right from the beginning. We shared that same value. And you need somebody to share it with. When you come in new, you've got to have somebody that grashed your vision and then spreads it. You know, so you're in the league as a player for 15 years. As I mentioned earlier, you win five NBA championships. Tell us about how your playing days shaped how you lead as a coach. Well, I played for 15 years and I was never really a starter. I think I might have started 15 or 20 games in 15 years. So I was always a bench player. I would say half of those years I was in the rotation and a good six, seven years of my career. I was the 10th, 11th, 12th man. And so I came into this job with a real sense of connection with all the role players. And in a lot of ways, role players define who your team ultimately becomes. The stars are going to play. They're going to get paid all the money. If you don't have superstars, you can't win a championship. So I inherited this Warriors team that was already really good. They had Steph Curry, Clay Thompson and some amazing vets like Andrei Gdala and Andrew Bogut. And I can see we had the talent, but I wanted to connect with the bench because I had been there. And so my first year I came up with this idea that our team mantra could be strength in numbers. And it was something that I talked about from day one. We had so much talent. We had so much depth that we were going to overwhelm teams. And it really became part of our persona. So much so that the marketing department for the Warriors actually used that phrase, "strength in numbers on T-shirts and in our marketing campaign." And it was something that made me really proud because when something catches on like that and it becomes part of the team, and you know you've kind of tapped into the right heartbeat of what the team's about and things really came together for that group. You know, as we all come up in our careers, we're not always the leader. We're not always the head coach. What do you think it means to be a great team player? I think there's got to be a sense of making the game fun and being an enjoyable teammate. You know, that's one of the things we look for when we draft players or sign them as free agents. We want to bring in guys who other players are going to enjoy playing with because then there's kind of a momentum that feeds on itself. And when you get a bunch of guys who love to play, the work ethic is almost automatic. They're going to work on their game because they love it. But then they really fuel each other. And so I think being a great teammate is bringing joy to the facility every day and bringing humor and bringing a passion for the game and pushing your teammates to continue to try to get better. I was looking at your career and you're obviously at the top now. You know, I thought about, "Geez, you have almost every situation that every leader has when they come up or when they get at the top of an organization. You've had to handle them all." So I thought I would ask you some questions that would give some advice since we have the chance here to, you know, sit at the feet of the master here who's done it so well. You go into your head coaching job, for example, and you replace a coach who was very popular with the players, but he was fired. And a lot of people move into new situations and a situation like that. And this happened to be Mark Jackson, who was fired. But how do you get the team to move on and follow you and your vision as a new leader when they might be mourning the fact that they just lost the leader that they like? Well, the first thing and the most important thing to do is to honor what your predecessor accomplished and to let the players know that you're not coming in here to reinvent the wheel. You're coming in to help build upon what was already built as a foundation. And so that was my message from the start. You know, Mark Jackson and I go way back. You were competitors for many years in the NBA and we've both worked in television. We come across each other a dozen times a year and we're friends and I have great respect for the job he did here. The Warriors were really a downtrodden franchise for a long time. I think they went something like 16 straight years without making the playoffs. And then Mark took them to the playoffs and back to back years. So when I became the coach, my first thing was to really praise the job that Mark and his staff had done and it was genuine, that praise. And to really let the players know that they had already accomplished quite a bit, but our job was to help them take the next step. They had already become a playoff team. But how are we going to advance in the playoffs? And here's where we can add to what you've already built. And I think that sort of approach is much more powerful than coming in and den igrating what has already been done. You know, I couldn't agree more with that. And I have to tell you, when I became president KFC, I didn't really follow the goal. I didn't follow your philosophy. When I look back on it, I was a little negative on my predecessors. And if they hadn't had done what they had done, we wouldn't have been ready to turn the business around like I was able to do with my great team at that time. So, you know, I think you're a lot more wise than I was in that particular situation. Let's say, Steve, that you have an incredibly talented problem child on your team. Let's say it's someone like a Dennis Rodman. How do you go about making a guy like that work on your team? It's a great question. I watched it with Phil Jackson and Dennis Rodman for three years in Chicago. And what Phil did was he really appealed to Dennis by getting to know him and understand him. And an example of that was I remember one year Dennis was kind of drifting away from the team as he was apt to do at times. We sat down for a film session and Phil showed a press conference from a few years prior to that when Dennis was named the defensive player of the year in Detroit. And in the press conference, Dennis was bawling, crying just emotional given how much that award meant to him, given where he came from and how far-fetched it was that he would even make the NBA much less become defensive player of the year. And Dennis sat there with us and watched. And it was a really powerful moment because Phil was showing us how much the game means to Dennis even if he were drifting away from us at times. And it was a great reminder to me even non-verbally as a coach, you just have to remind people of each other's good qualities. And it's well-known, Dremon Green and I have had our share of interactions, we 'll call them, over the seven years that we've been together. And he is one of the most loyal and one of the most fiery competitors I've ever been around. And he doesn't come without some challenges coaching him because of that fire, because of that emotion. And so I think often about what Phil Jackson did with Dennis Rodman and I try to highlight all the great things Dremon does with our team anytime he kind of drifts off at all. And I think it's just appealing to a team to be reminded of each player's value to the group. That's a great point. You mentioned you started talking about joy as one of your big values. How soon do you as a leader as a coach, how soon do you start talking about culture? And how do you go about building what you think is the culture of the Warriors? It's a great question. It would be hard to throw it in their face on day one and say these are our values. What I did our first year was I tried to embody our values each day with my interaction with the players, with the staff's interaction with the players. Our other values, by the way, besides joy, were competitiveness, mindfulness and compassion. Those values are all based on me personally, what makes me tick as a human being. And since I'm the leader of the team, those values have to really come alive as Pete Carroll talked about. And so I tried to be really compassionate with the team right away. I tried to be very competitive in terms of putting together drills and keeping score and constantly hitting the team against one another and drills and scrimmages. And then we tried to have as much fun as possible. We played music during practice. We showed funny videos. We celebrated guys' birthdays. We celebrated the birth of children. We invited family members on the team plane so that they could travel with us. We tried to incorporate everything that sort of embodied our values. And then I think maybe a couple of months in, we sat down one day and I wrote all those values on the board and said, "This is what we're about. And this is what you guys need to enhance and grow every single day for us to become special." And that's because at that point in time, you had gone far enough to where you had walked to talk and those values. So you thought you were an incredible leader to share them with them. That's right. They were already feeling those values for sure. But I think to actually see them laid out after the fact was also important, just so they knew where I was coming from. How many of us have the opportunity to work with a talented group of superstars like you've had with the Steph Curry, Clay Thompson, Kevin Durant, Dremon Greed? How do you get spectacular players like these to share the limelight? Well, so much of it, David, is the players just being themselves. It's really easy to get Steph Curry to share the limelight because he does it naturally. He was raised beautifully by a loving family. And he's got this incredible combination of humility and humor and joy and almost arrogance on the floor with his play. And so his teammates absolutely adore him. To have a guy like that who is so dominant and yet so humble at the same time, it reminded me a lot of Tim Duncan, who I played with in San Antonio. First time I really got a look at Steph, he reminded me a lot of Tim. So as a coach, you are really blessed and lucky to have a player who can lead the way with that sort of unselfishness for his teammates. I remember listening to Steph at the golf tournament we were at where he actually thanked you. He said, "Coach, I want to thank my coach for making sure I get the plays that allowed me to do what I do." You've got a really special relationship, but you've got to take his performance, I think, to the next level as a coach to a certain extent. But have you found that motivates such a high performer like that? How do you get him to even raise his bar or do you even have to think about it? Well, he's naturally a worker and a competitor. What I try to do is get to know each player and see what makes him tick. What makes Steph tick honestly is he loves life and he needs certain things in his life. He needs to play golf, loves golf. Anytime we have a day off on the road. I encourage him to bring his golf clubs. If we've got a day off in Orlando, by all means, enjoy the sunshine, go out and play golf. Play 36 if you want Steph. I encourage him to be with his family as much as possible. I think Steph has such a complex life because of the demands on his time. If he's not careful, he will overextend himself. One of the ways I try to coach him is to remind him of what's really important in his life. That's his family, his wife Aisha and his children, really being at home and on the golf course. If he's doing those two things, his mindset is right for the basketball court. He can at times, like I said, get away from himself because so many people are tugging him in different directions. Speaking of Joy again, you created with your team what I believe is the greatest passing team in history. We talked about the superstars you have. How did you go about getting players to pass like they passed and play like they play as a team? Did you use recognition around the idea of assists? Well, I inherited an excellent passing team. We emphasized that the team was already naturally inclined to move the ball. One thing we did was we used some data that we had from the previous years team and we really put a goal out there for our team. It wasn't so much assist as it was total passes. It's something that didn't used to be tracked in the NBA, but now they can keep track of everything. There's cameras and software everywhere around the league where you can keep track of anything you want. We kept track of total passes per game. We found that the previous year's team was actually dead last in the league in passes per game. It was more of a high-screen enrolled team. We wanted to really take advantage of guys like David Lee and Andrew Bogut and Draymond Green, these wonderful passing big men knowing that with Clay and Steph moving off the ball, we were going to get a lot of open looks. We looked at the numbers and we looked at what the top teams in the league averaged and we set 300 total passes as our goal. We wrote that on the board every day. We want to pass it all 300 times a game. I think it was at 245 of the year before. It got to the point where if I didn't write it on the board, they would ask me how many passes last night coach and I'd say, "Oh, you know, 320," whatever it was." They really embraced it and loved it. I think it fed on itself. We were by far the number one team in the league and total passes and assists and it was just really fun to see it all come together. That's a great leadership example of you need to measure what you expect. There's no question about that. I've got a hypothetical for you. This actually happened as I was watching the NBA playoffs last year. Watching the 76ers play, they've got Ben Simmons and he's obviously a phenomenal defensive player and he has an opportunity to shoot a layup or dunk it right underneath the basket and he passes it. He's lost his confidence as an offensive player. How would you go about coaching someone who's lost their confidence in being able to take a shot, even if it's a layup and you're a professional? How would you go about taking a Ben Simmons and getting him to be an offensive player or at least participate more on that side of the court? Yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic. I think a lot of fans probably think that players are for the most part imper vious to pressure but it's really not the case. We're all human. We're all nervous. We are all very vulnerable. We've seen in every sport catchers who have a tough time throwing the ball back to the pitcher or second baseman who are throwing wildly to first pitchers who can't find the plate. You can tell I'm a little bit of a baseball fan but free throw shooters in basketball, guys who just don't want to go to the line, this happens and it's not a human flaw. It's just a human brain issue where your brain gets in the way. What we try to do is we try to help our players, number one, with their confidence by showing them a lot of clips of their best moments, reminding them, "Hey, don't forget you can do this. Look at yourself in this game last week. You made this shot and that shot. Keep shooting. Make sure you're doing this. Make sure you're doing that." But number two, we've got to be able to offer them professional help here with the Warriors. I think most teams around the league, we have a mindfulness trainer. We have somebody who will lead our players through meditative work, through visualization. Sometimes as a group, sometimes individually, but we've got to be able to help our players because this is all kind of normal stuff. This is human stuff. And it just happens. You've got to work at the mindset every day, right? You really do. You really do. And that mindfulness that I talk about, really Phil Jackson was the first coach I ever had who taught mindfulness and would bring in someone from outside to lead us in meditation, breathing, and it made a real impact on me. I've tried to provide some of the same things for our players. It's so often, Steve, that people have a good year. The next year, they really fall off the waist like, "Well, you won two championships in a row and you've been in contention for the championship almost every year." What are the key levers that you really pull to overlap that kind of success? When you have that winning team, what do you do to get them to come back at it with the same fervor? Well, every season is really a brand new story. And that's what these are in the NBA. They're all stories. Every player has his own individual story and every team has its collective story. And as a coach, I think it's my job to lay out what that story is. And for five years, we went to the finals. We knew after that first year when we won the championship, we knew we were going to have a championship level team for many years to come. But the storyline was a little different. The second year, we were trying to repeat. And the third year, we got Kevin Durant. And after losing in game seven at home in the 16 finals. And by that time, we were the king of the hill and everyone was trying to knock us off and the storyline shifted. And so as the leader, I try to really let the guys know what the story is and how that story can end well, what we need to do to make sure we hold up our end of the bargain. And then the story can change dramatically when players get injured, they leave . And then maybe your season is more about player development and growing for the future. And you know you're not going to compete for a championship like we've known for the last two years, but you've got to adjust accordingly and be very realistic with your players. Can you share the story that you're telling your team this year? Yeah, the story of the team this year is we want to compete for a title this year, which we think we have a chance to do. It's not clear cut, but if things fall in place and guys get healthy and Clay Thompson comes back strong, we think we can reach that upper echelon of teams again. So we've got this amazing slew of young players, James Wiseman and two new lottery picks, Jonathan Kaminga, Moses Moody, we've got Jordan Poole, who has really emerged. And part of our job as a professional sports franchise, we want to be great for the next iteration of this team, the next era. So we're trying to do two things. We're trying to compete at the highest level this year and compete for a title. And we're trying to set the table for the next decade so that the Warriors can remain one of the elite teams in the league for the next 10, 15 years. And that's on all of us to try to accomplish that. And that's this year's story. Well, I think telling that story makes a lot of sense. And leaders are often called as well to give the big speech. Can you set the stage and share with us a story of what you would consider would be your most motivational speech? It's really interesting, David, but in the NBA, we have 82 games. We have usually four or five exhibition games. And if you really go deep in the playoffs, you can play 20 plus playoff games. You can imagine 100 speeches from their coach would not go over so well. I'm not a big speech guy. I generally will just very matter of fact, lay out the game plan before the game. And then after the game, just have a read for what's going on. I will frequently inject some humor into the post game speech if things have gone well and have a little fun. But I'm not a Newt Rachney, when one for the Gipper coach. Well, certainly you'd have to pick and choose with that many games, right? How do you think about that? Your view is get people ready at the beginning and do a post game. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes maybe we've had four games in five nights or something. There's no speech at all. Good job guys. Bring it in and everyone puts their hand in the middle and you go. But I think part of a coach's job is pacing the team and understanding where they are. If they're tired, if they're energized, where they are at different moments of the season. And that means probably backing off at a lot of key times. Steve, innovation is so important in almost every business. Can you give us a story about how you went about breaking some new ground with the Warriors as a coach? Sure. You know, I think analytics have played a huge role across the sports landscape over the last decade, maybe even two decades. Basketball has changed dramatically just in the last five or six years. So since the time I started coaching seven years ago to now, we use data and analytics much more than we ever did before. And to be perfectly honest, I don't feel well versed in analytics. And so I've tried to hire people who can help me decipher all these numbers and figure out what data is going to be helpful to us, to the Warriors, to help us win games. And so I think the challenge of being able to take this entire lifetime of knowledge that I've had in the game where I've had coaches hammer home the importance of getting a great shot, ball movement, setting screens, all these traditional concepts. And then all of a sudden to have to think, where should we be giving up our shots to our defense? What's the lowest percentage shots that our opponent can take? And can we funnel those shots to that spot? We never used to do that when I played. And so now all of a sudden there's this new information. I've got to adapt. I mean, adapt or die, right? You've got to understand what's happening. And so we've hired some really good people who have helped me understand a lot of that. And I feel like I'm learning all the time. That's very interesting. And it's also very interesting that you hired around an area that you didn't necessarily have the greatest strength, the whole notion of data. I think it's really important. I think it's very natural, very human for all of us to come in when you're leading an organization to want to act like you've got all the answers. But it's actually much more powerful if you're comfortable in your own skin of walking into a room and getting command of the room with your personality, with your values, with your communication, and then really openly admitting, "Hey, I need help in this area ." I think that's one of the most powerful things a leader can do because you're trying to empower the people around you. And if they know that you actually need their help, they're not going to look at you as weak. That's probably the fear that some of us have as new leaders. I can't let anyone know I have a weakness. It's not a weakness. It's a strength because if you know what you're missing, then you're going to be able to fill that void and the company or the team is going to be stronger as a result. And that person is going to feel really good about being counted on to provide that information. You know, it also really provides a real great sense of humility that you don't know it all and that you actually need everyone. And everyone wants to count no matter what the team is, right? For sure. And who really does know everything? Nobody's got all the answers. And those people who do think they have all the answers generally aren't great leaders because people get tired of them really quickly. You obviously see the big picture. You have good vision for where you want to go. Have you ever had to fight the challenge of micromanaging or is that something that not a problem? Not a problem for me. I'm a very trusting person. If anything, the feedback that I've gotten from my veteran coaches who have been around a long time. I may do the opposite too much. I may empower people so much to the point where there might be some mis communication going on because I'm not making myself clear enough to the entire group. So I've never had a problem micromanaging, but at times I've got to make sure I don't overdo my delegation and my reliance on others. Steve, you've won so much, but then it's so challenging just mentally, personally. I know I've had this happen to myself where I have a big year and then maybe the next year or the next event I have doesn't go quite as well. When you lose a championship or you have a tough year, what's the process you go through personally? Just to get your juices back where they need to be again? Yeah. I think one of my flaws is that I beat myself up. It's the old adage about the same thing that makes you laugh, makes you cry. I've always been really hard on myself, which is what drove me to work really hard and to become a professional player and to become a coach. But the flip side of that is you beat yourself up and it weakens you spiritually. So I've tried to work on that, not blame myself for failures. Still working at that, but I think the work-life balance for me is everything. If I can be home and enjoy dinner with my wife and my family and get around to golf and now and then and get into a good book and do things that I enjoy that take my mind off of coaching and maybe a mistake that I made or whatever, I find I'm able to keep my cup filled and I have more energy for the task the next day. Steve, I want to now take you back to your upbringing. Tell us about it. Well, I had a very interesting upbringing. David, my dad was a professor at UCLA. He was a professor of Middle East history and politics, political science. So we would take sabbaticals every few years from the Los Angeles area where I grew up, but we traveled a ton. So we lived at various times in my childhood. We lived in France, Egypt, Beirut, Lebanon, Tunisia, and at all these places my dad was either doing research or teaching or studying. And my siblings and I would go to school and just become part of this culture half a world away. And then we'd go back to Los Angeles and get back to our comfort of American life and our friends. So I had a real worldly perspective as a child just having all these international experiences that I didn't realize at the time, but they were really probably the best education I could have received even more so than going to school and taking classes. There's nothing like living overseas as an expat to learn about the world. You know, my dad was the governor's survey and I lived in 23 states by the time I was in seventh grade, but I didn't live in Tunisia and the cultures that I got to use. It's a little bit different. It's a little different from Don City, Kansas to China and Mexico. You know, unfortunately, and I know this was a terrible event in your life, in January of '84, your father was assassinated in Beirut. He's one of the first victims of terrorism and you're only 18 at the time. How do you deal with such a devastating loss like that at such a young age? I understand you're in college, I think. Yeah, I mean, just a devastating time in our lives. I have three siblings and my mom is still thriving and she's 87 and healthy and teaching at UCLA. She teaches a class, but at the time we were all just destroyed. And so we relied on each other and took comfort in each other and continued to live and pursue our lives and our dreams and support one another and we did the only thing we could do, which was just to keep going but with each other's support. And I think it really helped me to be on the Arizona team. Actually, that became my second family. And Coach Loodleson and his wife, Bobby, were kind of my protectors and surrogate parents at that time and really looked after me. And but yeah, a terrible time of life and it doesn't leave you with many options to be perfectly frank, you just have to keep moving. You know, I bet you get questions on politics and social issues almost every day, particularly with everything that's going on with social media and how news just travels so quickly. How do you feel about sports and business leaders sharing personal points of views? I think as long as they are informed, then I think people should feel very comfortable expressing views. We live in a time where, you know, everybody has an opinion and everyone has access to each other's opinions through social media. What I've found is as long as I focus on the things I'm passionate about, for me, those things are racial justice and gun reform. Those are the issues that I'm most passionate about and that I feel I'm most educated about that I've read about. There have been a couple moments where I've not felt very informed about things I was asked about and sort of painted myself in a corner and been very uncomfortable. I think my advice to people out there, leaders who are being asked about things , is to make sure you feel informed and comfortable with the discussion before you enter it. If you don't, then it's okay to sit it out. You mentioned racial justice and how do you think a white leader should educate themselves on what black Americans face and have you done that to yourself? I mean, you obviously play in a predominantly black league. For me, these last couple of years have been really eye opening and I'm almost embarrassed because I've had black teammates since I was in junior high. I always felt like I understood the black experience, but I really didn't. I think for a lot of us, these last couple of years have been an awakening. What I've tried to do the last two years is really do a lot of reading and I've tried to connect with people in our community who can guide me as well. Boots on the ground, local grassroots organizations that are actually working in the inner city. I've connected with some of those groups and actually tried to learn and help and see where I can grow and help the people that we're trying to engage. But there's a lot of amazing books that I've read the last couple of years on social justice. The ones I would recommend, anything that James Baldwin wrote, I would highly recommend. There's a book called The New Jim Crow, which is an amazing account of the modern criminal justice system and how disproportionate black presence is in our jails, in our prisons. There's an amazing book called Cast, same author wrote a book called The Warmth of Other Sons. Gosh, now all of a sudden I'm forgetting her name. She's a wonderful writer. And the point is, if you're a white leader at a time when there's a racial reckoning, especially if you're working with African American people, take the time to engage them and take the time to educate yourself with reading some really powerful books that are out there. I have to ask you, what has it been like to be a minority in a predominantly black league? Maybe I felt that a little bit as a player. Generally speaking, the team was I played for. I was one of two or three white players. And it still didn't really feel like I was a minority because I was living in a white world. You go out to the game and in general, most of the faces in the stands are white. And a lot of the faces in the front office are white. And even though in the locker room, I may have been a minority, I wasn't a minority in life, if that made sense. Yeah, makes no sense. So I think there is something wonderful about sports, about the connection you can make with people from a different place, whether it's a different race, different religion, different country of origin. It's one of my favorite things about sports is there's so much space to really explore those differences and to really connect with people. And I think as a coach, it's important to try to elicit some of those interactions with your players. Steve, you've mentioned already some of the successful leaders that you've had on your journey to the top. And you've played for some Hall of Fame coaches or future Hall of Fame coaches, just quickly, single biggest thing. What did you pick up the most from Lut Olsson when you played at Arizona? Lut Olsson, the importance of culture, building a foundation, he took the Arizona job when they were rock bottom and he built it into this powerhouse in two years. We were in the NCAA tournament the second year that he was there. And that started a string of 25 straight NCAA tournament appearances. He was culture. He was a foundation, an expectation of how hard we were going to work, family. It was just beautiful to watch unfold. I read somewhere that he was a big believer that you need to have big dreams for what you could accomplish as well. Yeah, he set the tone right away. We had one of the worst teams in the country when he arrived. And he said, we're going to play the best teams and we're going to become one of the best teams. We may not have believed him at first, but we were in the final four his fifth year. So it happened pretty quickly. What do you see as the genius of Phil Jackson? You mentioned you learned a lot on the middle side of the game. Was that in authenticity with Phil? He was so authentic. He's such a unique character, but it was all real. It was genuine. He was a guy who grew up in South Dakota near an Indian tribe. He had this love for Native American history and spirituality. He incorporated that into his coaching. He called us his tribe. We watched film in a room adorned with Native American art. He read stories about Native American history. When you first get there, you think this is really kind of weird. It's different like, what are we doing? And then you realize how genuine it is and how authentic it is because that's truly who he is and was growing up. And it's powerful. And what it does is it makes for a really creative environment that you look forward to coming into. What was the biggest thing you picked up from Greg Popovich for the Spurs? Humanity. Just one of the most compassionate empathetic people I've ever met in this package of fire and brimstone. Everybody thinks of Pop as the guy who gives the sideline reporter the hard time, this grim, gruff guy. But Pop was so passionate and so competitive. And yet he had this amazing, compassionate, empathetic streak that was a huge part of his coaching. And we felt it every single day. And it was authentic and beautiful. By the way, congratulations on bringing home the gold as a part of the US team. You were an assistant for Pop. What was it like for you to take a back seat, you know, when you've been the head coach? It was awesome. It was so fun. You know, Pop was so nervous before every game and he'd say, how are you feeling? I'd say, I feel like, great. We're going to win by 20 tonight. And he'd say, easy for you to say, you're the assistant. I said, you're damn right. That's great. You had to feel a little pressure when you lost a France in that opening game. We did, but we also knew the circumstances were really working against us early on. We had three guys who were in the finals who didn't even train with us for those first few weeks. And then they literally arrived in the middle of the night before that day of the France game. And so we knew things were going to fall in place, but yeah, I definitely put some pressure on us. You know, I also understand that you did a four year stint as an NBA broadcaster after your playing days. What did that teach you about leadership? Well, that's a good question. What did it teach me about leadership? Well, you're part of a team when you're on a broadcast team. You're part of not just the on air group, but there's a whole group in the truck every night and you're having meetings with that group during the day and you're putting together the telecast and trying to make sure everything's tightened up. So I learned about being part of a broadcast team. I also learned what a great job it was to prepare for coaching because I had the chance to visit with every coach before the game. Part of the deal is you sit down for 15 minutes with both coaches and I was taking notes every day. One of the things I learned was if you're preparing for a leadership role, you should be asking a lot of questions and reading a lot about other leaders. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And then you were a general manager for the Phoenix Suns and I understand you didn't think you were that good at it. Why? I was too inexperienced and I didn't communicate well across the difficult boundaries that exist. It's very interesting in professional sports. You've got to have the best player, the coach, the GM and the owner in lockstep . And I don't know that I truly understood that when I became the general manager there. And I look back and I wish I had done a better job of tying all those people together. And I think I could have done a better job. But in hindsight, I know that that experience really helped prepare me to coach as well because I inherently understood the importance of communicating with my GM and my owner and my best players and how that all tied together. Steve, I'm a big believer in the concept of self coaching. And in fact, I've just written a new book called Take Charge of You, How to Use Self-Coaching to Transform Your Life and Career. How did you self-coach yourself to decide to become a coach? That this was something that you wanted to be. That's an interesting question. I like it. I think what I realized when I became a GM was that I really longed to be on the floor. And I don't think I spent enough time before I took the GM job that was offered to me, really examining myself and sort of introspectively figuring out what made me tick. And I think what makes me tick is a daily interaction with the players and coaches. And that's what makes it fun. When you're the GM, you're on the outside looking in a little bit. You're upstairs looking down at the court. I love being in the action. And so coaching was the more natural fit for me. And I think figuring that out, what you can be good at and what you have the skills for is really important. You know, we talk about finding your joy builders and obviously coaching really tapped right into what really gives you joy in the game of basketball. It did because I love the game. But I also love that interaction that I was just talking about. And then I love the creativity that goes in with coaching. You have a blank canvas. You get to do whatever you want to practice each day. And if that means coming in and throwing the football around, which we've done before, calling practice off and having the guys run past patterns with each other because you know they need a mental break or going to the baseball stadium and taking batting practice, which we've done too. I have the power to make that happen. I mean, how cool was that? So it's really fun to be able to sort of, you know, set the tone every day however you want to do it. Speaking of setting the tone, I understand there was a game where you actually had your players coach themselves, speaking of self coaching. What provoked you to do that? We were just in a little bit of a rut. You know, we had a great team. We were on cruise control. We were winning plenty of games, but I could sense that my voice was growing thin. These weren't listening as much. Their focus wasn't great. And I just decided to basically turn the whole day over to them. I told them the day before that I would be doing it. And I said, we're going to come in for shoot around tomorrow, but you guys are going to give the film session. And you get to figure out which one of you is going to present the game plan and the matchups. And then when the game starts, I'll make all the substitutions, but you guys are going to draw up the plays and the time out. So when we call a timeout, one of you is going to grab the clipboard and you're going to draw up a play. And their eyes just lit up. I mean, they were so excited. It's the first time they'd been excited in about a month. And we went out and we won by 30 points. And it was like one of those moments where part of you goes, maybe I just made myself irrelevant. I think it was the right thing to do just because it spiced things up and it put the ball in their court a little bit. And they got locked in. Its ideas like that that make you so relevant. You know, this has been so much fun. And I want to have some more with a lightning round of Q and A. Are you ready for this? Okay. Three words to best describe you. Compassionate, joyful and competitive. If you could be one person beside yourself for a day, who would it be and why? Steph Curry, because he's the most skilled athlete I think I've ever seen in my life. And he loves life to its fullest. Every single second of the day he's happy. What's your biggest pet peeve? New Year's resolutions. What's something about you that few people would know? I love to cook. Do you have a hidden talent besides cooking? No. And the cooking isn't a hidden talent at home. I'm sure everybody appreciates that. They appreciate it. Yeah. So you got Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, they all come out in a draft the same year. Who would you pick and why? Oh man, that's an impossible question. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I think Kevin Durant is the most skilled, talented basketball player of all time. It doesn't mean he's the best. Michael Jordan is the best. LeBron is probably a close second. Kevin is the most talented player that I've ever seen in my life. And he's bigger, taller, better shooter than both Jordan and LeBron. Better rim protector, shot blocker. Kevin is just stunningly gifted and it was an honor to coach him. So you draft all three, I take it. I take it all through. Who do you wish you could have played with and why? Steve Nash would have loved to have played with Steve because he was one of the most gifted passers ever in the history of the game, but also one of the most gifted leaders. Just a beautiful player to watch in terms of how much better he made his teammates. And I know he would have made me a lot better. You're most cherished win. Game six of the 2015 NBA Finals, our first championship in Golden State. The loss you'll never get over. Final four 1988 Oklahoma. That didn't take long. No, it didn't. What song do you listen to to pump yourself up? To pump myself up. I've got a pretty diverse playlist. But as I told you before, I'm not a big motivational guy. So I'm more of a toner down music guy. So if I'm driving to the game, I want to be calmed down. I don't want to be pumped up. So I tend to listen to the softer stuff. I'll go with the counting crows. That's my favorite band. Okay, great. Stephen, I can't have this conversation with you and be the only guy who talks to you that doesn't ask you about the famous last dance documentary. Okay. You know, with Michael Jordan in the Chicago Bulls 1997, '98 team, the championship season, which you played a key role on as well. When you think about that documentary, what do you wish? Should have been shown in the documentary that wasn't. I wish that Ron Harper and Luke Longley had been featured. They were two starters on those teams, three-year starters during that run. Crucial players for us, championship players. And because of this scope of the documentary, they told so many stories, but they couldn't fit everybody in. And those two guys got left out and I felt bad for both of them because they played huge roles in the success of that team. Yeah, absolutely. I have to tell you, I wish I would have seen the fight that you had with Michael Jordan. That would have been nice to say. How did that affect your relationship? What was that like? I mean, he's a little bit bigger than you. Yeah, yeah, a little bit. People ask me about that all the time. You know, usually in an NBA season, there's one or two fights within the team a year. They usually happen in a scrimmage and that's what happened. It was training camp of that season, whatever season was, maybe '95 or so. And really competitive, a lot of trash talking. And one thing people may not know about me, or maybe they do because they've seen me smash clipboards as a coach of the Warriors. When I kind of snap, I'm really mild-mannered and then all of a sudden I snap. And when I go overboard, I just go overboard. And so I snapped that day. And did it strengthen your relationship or? It strengthened it, for sure. No, it strengthened it because in some ways Michael tested all of his teammates . I think he was testing me that day a little bit and I didn't back down. I think he respected that and our relationship got much stronger after that. Did your kids happen to watch? I'm sure they watched the last dance documentary . What did they think about it? They loved it because they were alive at the time, but just little toddlers. So they have the older two, I have three kids, the older two have vague memories of being in the locker room and celebrating a championship and that sort of thing. But really fun to watch it with them so that they could get a look as grownups at what our life was like back then. You know, speaking of kids, how do you balance the 24/7 demands of coaching with the family? I mean, all you do is you read about how coaches spend so much time watching film, sleeping in the locker room. How do you manage it? I don't sleep in the locker room for one. Good move. Yeah. I think you got to be comfortable in your own skin and the NBA as a coach. And I think it helps that I played for a long time and I was able to come in to coaching with a comfort level. I told Bob Myers and Joe Laker, when I interviewed for the job, I told them point blank, sleeping in your office is the worst thing you can do for your team. If you're trying to preach perspective, which is important, and work-life balance, and you want your players to go home and have dinner with their families, you better do the same thing yourself. And so I told them I'm not the guy sleeping on his couch. I'm the guy who's actually going to enjoy my off day and come in and energize the next day. They were all for it and I think they agree with that approach. You know, last question here. You love coaching. You're all in. What do you envision for yourself after coaching days or over? It's a really good question, David. You know, my mortality is actually there now. Like I can envision it. You know, when you're younger, you just can't even possibly envision what you 're going to do when you retire. But I'm all of a sudden getting to that age where it's like, wow, what am I going to do when I'm not coaching basketball anymore? And I have no idea. I love coaching. I imagine I'll do this for a while longer. I hope so anyway. What's beyond that? I have no idea. Well, the only advice I can give you having done it is to follow the joys like you've been. You know, you followed your joy and I love, but I can tell you that I tell everybody, you know, I didn't know I could love something so much and miss it so little because I pulled up my life with joy. And part of that joy is getting to keep my game sharp by learning from leaders like yourself. And I can't tell you how much I truly appreciate you taking the time. One last question. What's the state of your golf game? I'm the worst 4.5 handicap on earth. I really am. I don't mean for that to sound like a humble brag. It's actually the opposite. Like you don't want me on your team as the 4. Who's your partner? He's a 4.5. Oh, you got a good player. I'm the guy who can shoot 75 and then can also get the shanks the next round and shoot 90. But you know how the handicap system works? It eliminates all those 90s, but I shoot enough 77s and 78s. I'm not the guy you want as a partner. Put it that way. I don't know about that. I think I go do battle with you anytime. But thank you so much, Steve, for taking the time. I appreciate it so much. My pleasure. Really, really enjoyed it. By the way, you're really good at this. You've found a second career. Thank you. Thank you. You know, when I was listening to Steve Kerr, it took me back to my approach that I had when I started my career. I wanted to get so much attention. I was an individual contributor. I wanted to be the best at everything that I could possibly do. I looked around and I saw my competition as potential enemies to be frank. I had to beat their butts. I wanted to get ahead of them. But then when I started to look at the people who I really admired as leaders, the people who were really making things happen, these were people who were always other directed. These were people that really got people to play as a team and they inspired people to work with other people and bring out the best in other people. Then I realized I really needed to improve my approach. I needed to go from me to we. So I want you to think about how you're going to show up this week. Are you going to be all about yourself and try to go at it solo? Or are you going to pass the ball and set your teammates up to win? It's no secret that the approach Steve Kerr has used on the basketball court can lead us to success off the court. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that the great leaders lead by understanding the power of the team. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of How Leaders Lead, where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be. Merry Christmas everybody. And I'll see you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO] [ Silence ]