David Novak 0:04 

Welcome to How leaders lead where every week you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world, I break down the key learning so that by the end of the episode, you'll have something simple that you can apply as you develop into a better leader. That's what this podcast is all about. Now, of course, every leader knows how important listening is. But how often do we break it down and try to understand what it actually means to be a good listener? Today's guest can really help us answer that question. I'm talking with Rob Light, managing partner of Creative Artists Agency, the world's largest talent and sports agency. He's the head of their music division, and he has represented some huge names, like Bruce Springsteen, Beyonce, Prince dua, Lipa, and more. And he reminds us, we can accomplish so much more as leaders when we learn to listen for Rob. It helps him land new clients strike great deals and spot breakthrough opportunities in the market. And this conversation, you'll see how he does it. Plus, you'll hear some super fun stories along the way. So here's my conversation with my good friend, and soon to be yours, Rob Light.

Rob, thanks so much for being on the show.

Rob Light 1:26 

Dave, I'm excited to be here, especially having listened to so many of your great podcasts. I'm very honored to be a part of that group.

David Novak 1:34 

Great. You're gonna make it even better. I can tell you that. You know, Rob, I want to get into your leadership story and the way you lead. But first, tell us a little about CAA your music division and the type of clients you have.

Rob Light 1:47 

Well, Creative Artists Agency is the largest talent agency in the world. We represent actors, directors, writers, musicians, athletes, anyone who sort of is a performing artist, in any medium. Were honored to be a part of we do podcasts, the book tours, almost everything you can imagine. So if it's a movie or a TV show or a concert, there's a good chance that we've been involved in some way. The company's just over 40 years old, was started by Mike ovitz and Ron Meyer, and has always been built around a culture of teamwork and leadership. Our company credo is basically if you take care of each other good things will happen. And for 40 plus years, that's how we built the business and everyone who works here is sort of abides by that frame of mind and has been been a great asset for us.

David Novak 2:47 

Tell us about a few of your clients just to give us a sense of the scope of

Rob Light 2:50 

well, you know, in film, it's everyone from Will Smith and Tom Cruise and JJ Abrams and Meryl Streep to you know, some of the biggest television shows you've seen on the music side. It's Eric Clapton and Bob Dylan and Bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen and with Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, newer artists like dual Lippa and Radiohead, and like I said, you know, Tim McGraw Keith Urban, Carrie Underwood, just an amazingly blessed Beyonce Jennifer Lopez you're not leaving off anybody. Let me tell you something. Of course Bruce Springsteen in the back

David Novak 3:33 

love Bruce I you know, he's the boss is unbelievable at Tim McGraw and Faith Hill I just you know, that they're my favorite should have you know, I was watching the Today Show this morning. And Coldplay was performing in front of a live audience and and Chris Martin actually went out in the audience and was giving people high fives and all that in which was kind of fun to see people back in the music business and go and listening to each other and, and concerts. What's happening in the world of music now, Rob is as we move out of the pandemic,

Rob Light 4:06 

well, I've always believe that music just in and of itself, is the most unique and important of the art forms. You know, if you think about your favorite TV show, or your favorite movie, or even your favorite book, you love them for what they are, but they don't transport you to a time and place you think about your favorite song. And you know, the first song you have your first kiss or a date or a sporting event and that song when it comes on the radio transports you back in time. You hear your favorite song from high school, and suddenly you're in high school again, and music has the most unique way of doing it. You then take that into a live setting and federal organic communal nature of music that brings people together in a celebratory way or even in a sad morning sort of way, is just special. And so to have lost that for 15 months, was hard. Forget the business side, that's obvious. But for a lot of people, that communal gathering or seeing their favorite artists left the void. And so were they coming back now? There's almost this exuberance to get out of the house and celebrate. And music is a big catalyst of that. Yeah, that's

David Novak 5:26 

Yeah, that's absolutely right. As you were mentioning, your first kiss, and first dance and all that I was thinking of all the songs, I'm not gonna go through them. I don't want to date myself. Okay. But, you know, I'd like to now go back to the beginning, Robin. Yeah. Tell us a story about your childhood that will tell us a lot about you.

Rob Light 5:43 

Well, you know, neither my parents were in show business. You know, I grew up in, in the late 60s and early 70s, you know, in my teenage years. And so, music, politics, society, we're all wrapped into one. I went to college to be a writer because it was right during the Watergate era, and I thought I wanted to be a journalist. But music sort of consumed me. And I ended up in college writing a lot about the music industry. And I became a college concert coordinator. But in August of 1975, I actually skipped my senior year of high school, I went to high school, college when I was 17. In 1975, I discovered Bruce Springsteen, and I went to see him at the bottom line, hence why the posters behind me it was $3.50 a ticket to see him in a 400 seat club. And I it was such a, an experience. I mean, it truly bordered on a religious experience. I was so moved by the the evening, and I remember going home and saying to my parents, I don't know what this means, but I'm gonna go work in the music industry. And my dad looked at me and said, I said, I, there's just something about it. You know, I get goosebumps saying that right now. And and that concert just said to me, I have to do this. I was 17 or just turned 18 years old. I didn't even know what it meant to say I'm going to work in the music industry, because I don't know what that what a job was. But graduated from Syracuse University in the School of Communications new house and got a job in a talent agency and just been an amazing ride ever.

David Novak 7:25 

You know, Rob, I know you you literally started in the mailroom. You know, you hear that all the time, but you actually did it. You know, how did you work your way out of the mailroom? And how long did it take?

Rob Light 7:40 

This is a story that I'm not as proud of these days as I was back then I graduated college and in the spring of 78, and literally went to work the week after graduation. I you know, a lot of my friends went off to Europe, but I just couldn't wait to go and start in the mailroom at ICM after about three days, I was ready to quit because it actually is a mailroom. You deliver packages and, and I thought cheese. I'm so much smarter than this, like, what am I doing here? On the seventh day, I was in New York City, I was leaving with an arm full of packages. And another man was getting the elevator and other mailroom guy with an arm full of packages. And we're, we were going on what was called a run. And this guy says to me, I don't know if you heard, but they just transferred this new Senior Agent from LA to New York. And I have an interview when I get back to get out a minimum and get on his desk. And I looked at him and said, That's great. And we went down the elevator and he went left on 57th Street, watched him turn the corner I went back up in the elevator, I walked right into that agents office and said I'm your guy. And he hired me. We talked for a half hour he hired me on the spot I got out of the mailroom and seven days. Now, you know, I tell that story a lot. And people think well what a jerk this guy is. But it's one of the lessons I've learned is that information is power and how you share information and when you share it and how you use it is a very important tool. And like I said I was 20 years old and just full of piss and vinegar and nothing was going to stand in my way. I came to find out later that that young man had actually already been out of the mailroom once and hadn't really been successful. And he was sort of, you know, lucky to have been there and you know, I sort of justified it in my mind. I'm not proud of it anymore. But again, I just you know, at that age, you just you're gonna knock down everything on your way

David Novak 9:44 

to get started. We have an opportunity like this, or anyone that knows Rob Light knows he's not a jerk so I can tell you that for a fact.

Rob Light 9:53 

Thank you. So I got out of the mailroom in in six days, seven days. I worked for For a gentleman named Terry rose for about four months, and, and normally the road to being an agent was a year and you know, eight months, nine months in a mailroom two years as an assistant, and then you got promoted. So I got out and seven days, I ended up working for this man for four months, he turned around and said to his boss, we're wasting our time making him an assistant, he's so good at what he does, he's booking dates for me, he's great with the clients, we should promote them. The guy who his boss said, we're not promoting a 21 year old kid, he's going to take them off your desk, he's gonna work for me. And I work for one of the toughest men I ever worked for, you know, he, he was aggressive. He was a yeller, he was a screamer. I mean, today, he basically be fired in today's culture, but he was that guy. And four or five months into the job working for him, we represented a team pop group called the Bay City Rollers, which would be like today's one direction. And they had been a huge band that career had crashed. And he says to me, and they were on tour, doing a big arena tour, not selling any tickets. And he said, Rob, we got to pull this band off the road, they won't come off the road. So here's what's going to happen, I'm giving you a plane ticket, you're going to Louisville, Kentucky, and you're going to convince them to cancel their tour. And if you do, I'm going to make you an agent when you get back. And if you don't, don't come back. That you know, as a 21 year old kid, you know, you're mortified and and I got on the aeroplane. Obviously, I convinced them, which is a different story. And that's how I became an agent. But it was the second valuable lesson when I got there. This, you know, this band that were 2324 year old kids that they've saved us, if you're here to get us to cancel, turn around and go home, because we're not canceling we need the money, we're taking the money. And I said, No, I'm here as your agent, I'm going to be supportive. But I want to learn about what's going on. And I spent the day with these guys doing nothing but asking questions and learning about them. And how they got there and how they became a teen pop band because nobody wakes up wanting to be a teen pop down and watch the show, which was incredibly depressing. There was no one there. And then we go to dinner. And like getting the information by hearing what they had to say, and listening, and then being able to take that information and look at them and say at the end of the night, guys, you know, I've heard your story. And the fact is, you don't want to be a teen pop band, you should have never been a teen pop band. You know, if we start over, rebrand your name, do a new record, book, a cool Cup tour, like rejiggered this whole idea. I think we can reinvent you. And the band looked at me and said, Well, what do we have to do to do all those things? And I said, Well, you'd have to cancel the tour. And they canceled that night. Now, the lesson there is just simply you have to learn to listen, it's not saying listen, and learning to listen. And finding the tools to get people to talk is a real skill. And I think great leaders have that ability to really hear what their staff and their associates are saying can hear ideas can get people to communicate, and then take that information and use it in a way to help their companies grow.

David Novak 13:29 

Absolutely. And, you know, so many people when you get that, that big opportunity when your early 20s. And you did that, you know they they move up in their career and all of a sudden they start talking about all you need more experience and all that they forget how what they actually did you know, do you do you do? I'm sure you remember that. But does that you keep a real eye out for young talent.

Rob Light 13:56 

I'm always looking for people who are inventive. When I say aggressive, I mean ambitious. I don't think being ambitious is a bad thing. I'm not looking, I'm looking for people who have real positivity to their nature. You know, I'm not looking for people who are down and negative. You know, when when someone sees a problem, you can attack it two ways you can come at it from the negative point of view or the positive point of view that I'm going to fix it and here are some ideas how to fix it, and I'm gonna research why we got into this problem. And I'm looking for those sorts of people. And you know, people who are looking to creatively get ahead or the ones that that stand out. And, you know, people always talk about mentoring and training. And I believe in that we have a lot of great people but there are just certain people who instinctively know how to move forward. And that's what you know, those times Now to be the next generation of leaders. Thankfully, I have a lot of those who work for me, there's a great story of care story, we had a annual retreat every year. And we take over a whole hotel and over it's what was the guy and, you know, running the company. And it was legendary that he would get up at 530. In the morning, six, he'd go down to breakfast before anybody else, take the New York Times and read the paper. And so one young man decides to get up at five in the morning, he takes every New York Times in the hotel, gets rid of them, right? obits gets to the restaurant, there's no newspapers in the hotel, he's pissed. And he sees one guy having breakfast with the New York Times in front of them. He knows that someone from CAA because we have the whole hotel, and he looks at the kid, the kid looks up at him. And he just smiles and literally opens, walks over the kid and says, Can I join you for breakfast and share your newspaper? And two weeks later, he was Mike's assistant, he went on to become a great agent. But How brilliant is that? You can't teach someone to do that. They just think a certain way. And I love that.

David Novak 16:07 

I love that is a fantastic story. You know, Rob, you're known for having an incredible eye for talent. How do you turn How do you determine the magical it factor that you know, the difference between good and great is, you know, it's there's a big gulf there? I'm sure. Yeah.

Rob Light 16:23 

Well, that. Yeah. I've always said that the difference between good and great is because the Grand Canyon. And, you know, charisma, which to me, I've always defined as the ability to touch someone behind beyond the five senses is a rare thing. And you know, to be able to see it in somebody is a skill. It's a muscle like anything else. So you take the business as you've run, you'd be able to, you know, over years of doing it, you see things and what's working, what's not, you know, how to push the good, how to pull back on the bad. You know, I've had the privilege in my career to probably have seen 10,000 concerts, right, I probably seen, you know, 1000 2000 showcases so I'm able to look at talent in a different way. I'm not looking to please me, I'm looking for how do they communicate? How do they turn a phrase, you know, what is the song structure, and no one gets it. Perfect. I mean, it's like baseball, if you bet 300, your your, you know, in a Hall of Famer, it's that sort of thing. And so I'm, I'm looking for something unique. I, you know, I'm sure a lot of your listeners watch American Idol, or the voice or some of the shows on TV. And I've always said, if you watch that show, as a fan in your living room in America, you walk away and go, Wow, that one person is great. Well, if you put 12 people in a room, one of them is going to be better than the other 11. It doesn't mean any of them are any good. It just means one is better than the other 11. And that's the fallacy and potentially watching a show. Whereas when you're constantly looking, you're hopefully fine falling onto somebody where you go, wow, I see something different. And now I'm making a commitment to go forward. And, and, you know, if you're good at it, knock on wood, hopefully I have them, then you move forward, you know, you don't find out, you're good at something until you start to do it. And hopefully you find your passion and your skill, and they marry up together.

David Novak 18:31 

I want to get into a specific as I understand it, you wanted to do li pay from the moment you met her. And she's just won six Grammys, you know, tell us how you're able to take the lead and sign her up?

Rob Light 18:48 

Well, you know, it's sometimes you're around somebody, and there's a certain energy when she came into my office, you know, her manager was a friend of the agency and represented somebody else that we work with. And he calls one day and says, look, I've got this young girl. Can I bring her by your office and play a couple songs and see what you think and and she was 19. And she walked into the room and forget that she's beautiful. That was secondary, she she had this stature about her and this energy that lit up the room. Right? And we've all been around people in in business and an entertainment and in family where people just light up a room and she walked in and the room vibrated. I mean it really just took on this energy and she just had this smile that said, you know, you're not going to be able to look away from me. And then they played a couple of songs and she had a voice that that stood out. It wasn't just another voice the second you heard it, you knew that it was doing and I said to her that day I said you're gonna be a superstar and I'm not letting you out of here until you agree to let us represent you To undo a leap has gone on to great. And you know what she's never lost her warmth in her the joy that she brought into that first meeting, and she's still the same, she walks into a room and the room lights up. You know, and it's not always that I mean that that's a great one for her, you know, sometimes, you know, you can be in a smoky room, and it's somebody who's moody and dark. And yet they still there's this sort of electricity that the audience is feeling. And you know, it's something special,

David Novak 20:33 

you know, how do you do your client relationship? And how do you try to set yourself and your company apart? What do you do to make yourself invaluable?

Rob Light 20:43 

There is a phrase that my partner uses, and he said it to me, and I've never forgotten. And he said, Rob, to lead is to serve. And I, you know, it was a sort of lightning bolt to my head, he said, because your job now is to serve everybody who works for you and who you work for. And, and so I've sort of always had that in my mind that, you know, you're given this opportunity. And so I work for my clients, but everyone who works for me, I technique work for them, I'm there to serve, and make them better, make them stronger, try to empower them, try to put them in positions to succeed, try to find their best talents. And so it's just sort of how I bought, we've always operated, there isn't a client I work on, that don't have two or three other agents on my team and trying to get them to take the lead, always trying to pass credit on to somebody else. And, you know, it served us incredibly well. It's, it's why the agency continues to grow. And even just this week, we had two major agents leave other agencies to come work for us, because the culture and that, you know, drive to try to empower people and share. You know, they believe that and heard about it and felt it, you know,

David Novak 22:10 

Rob, you're at the top, everybody knows it. You mentioned you go to all these concerts, you know, you've been to 1000s of concerts, you know, how many concerts would you go to a year now? And now that you're at the top of your profession? Would you see dialing that back?

Rob Light 22:27 

Yeah, well, it goes to my last comment about the I don't think I can ask my staff to go if I'm not willing to go. Right. So I probably, you know, when we're back from COVID, or pre COVID. I'd be out probably four to five nights a week seeing shows, sometimes our clients who were superstars, and sometimes they were showcases. And you know, I've always had a rule for my staff that if you go to a show, you stay till the end, right? Because if you see an artist before they go on, and you're not there when they go off, what are you telling them that they weren't important enough to watch the end of the show or to tell them after that the show was good. So I can't say that to my staff. And then I'm not be willing to live by the same caveat. So I've always said this about entertainment. And I be curious how you know, all your other guests and future guests feel. But my wife will say to me, sometimes can't you get out of the fast lane. And I say, Shelley, I told my wife, I said, Sweetheart, there is only one lane, you're either in it, and you're going as fast as you can, or you're on the side of the road, and everyone's going by you. It isn't multiple lanes, when you're working at the top of your profession, you got to be moving. And so I don't believe that you can pull over and slow down if you're going to stay the best that you can possibly be. And so if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it all out, or I'm going to decide not to do so. And I think that message gets transmitted to those people who work for me and with me.

David Novak 24:14 

You know, earlier you said that you were talking about what you do. And you said you get goosebumps doing it. Oh, that's a very highly emotive thing. But it says joy to me. It says to be you know, you get absolute joy out of this job.

Rob Light 24:28 

Yeah, well, most of the time, I love every minute of it. You know, managing people is tough at times, you know that you manage 1000s of people and it's it's something you don't do with a Cavalier nature. You know, there are times that clients leave you or you lose something and it is painful. I was. I was at a conference and this wonderful comedian named Sebastian Maniscalco was asked a question he was on a panel. He had just played For sold out nights at Madison Square Garden, and the moderator said, How great was it? How was it the highlight so far of your career, and he went on to say that he missed the moment, meaning it happened. And he was already looking at the next thing, and he never celebrated it, never embraced it. And he looks back now realizing this incredible thing happened. And he regretted not taking a moment to stop and smell the roses. And I realize, for so many of us, in my career, I can sign, you know, a superstar, or discover new artists that goes on to break. And I never stopped and sort of enjoy it and move on to the next thing. And it's probably one of the Achilles heels is an issue. People were just we don't stop and take stock of all the great things that have happened. But when I do, yeah, it's joyous. And, you know, when you're standing at a concert, you know, with your heroes. You know, there's nothing like it. So I pinch myself. I mean, I still, you know, I have the privilege to talk to Stevie Wonder, three, four times a week. And on one hand, I go, like, Oh, my God, I'm talking to Stevie Wonder, right? But, and my system would tell you the same. Every time she calls me and says, Stevie Wonder is on the phone, I brace myself going, Oh, my God, I'm gonna get fired. Now, that's nuts. 30 years in, but it's sort of the self defense mechanism at the same time. So we're all a little crazy. In that regard.

David Novak 26:44 

You and your team have signed, as I understand it, over half the artists performing in Vegas. And I was wondering, was, was that a big strategic move for your company and your team? Or how did you? How did you make that happen?

Rob Light 27:01 

You know, it's a good question that leads to a bigger concept, and I'll respond in a second. But everything I've tried to do for my business, and I think great leaders do is they have a longer view on time. And they're always trying to identify where the gaps are, you know, where, where are the holes in their particular industry, that they can take advantage of that they can fill? that separates them from their competition? Right? And I'm sure in all your years, you know, running Yum, you saw that, and certainly, everything you did overseas is genius. And so we always try to do the same thing. in anything we do. And I could give you a number of examples sort of internally in the business. But in the case of Vegas, I would go often, you know, I had a lot of clients playing there. And this about eight 910 years ago, everyone playing the strip were old, you know, it was Penn and Teller. It was Celine Dion, it was Wayne Newton, it was this old cadre of entertainers. But there was this nightclub, energy that was exploding. All these DJs were playing in the nightclubs would take off at one in the morning, the lines would be around the block, the 20 Somethings and young 30 Somethings are just spending a fortune in these nightclubs. And so you'd be there on a Saturday, the swimming pool would be packed with all these people. And then somewhere they disappear between six o'clock one in the morning, and then come back out. And and in my head. I said, Well, where do they go? And why aren't they going to shows and it became obvious when we weren't programming to them. There wasn't anything playing in the showrooms that they wanted to see. And so I went to Gary Loveman, who at the time was the CEO of Caesars Palace, and and he had a theater in Planet Hollywood that had not been used. And I said, you know, Gary, if you refurbish this theater, and we make it young and hip, and we get a young artist of this generation of play, we can turn this whole town around and he was very dubious if it could happen. I you know, I had to go to the board. I got a lot of people to buy in, finally got Caesars took them at 20 million to redo the theater and convinced them that Britney Spears was the right artist. And at the time there was not a single pop contemporary artists doing a residency in Las Vegas. Britney opened up you couldn't get a ticket for two years. It was exactly that same audience I was talking about. And of course very quickly thereafter. You know, the whole town now is full of pop stars doing residencies from Gaga to Bruno Mars, you know, rock bands, it became a huge win for the city. And of course for the music industry and and I hate sounding arrogant, like I created something The Town always existed and residencies existed. I just saw a gap in the audience that could be filled. And, and I think, you know, great innovators and people who build great businesses find that and then find a way through their staffs and their teams to fill that void,

David Novak 30:17 

you know, is like we've been talking about, you know, I really love to get inside of the head of the leaders, we talk to you, Robin, how do you make a decision? And do you see people struggle with the decision making process?

Rob Light 30:31 

I think the the, the ability to make smart and fast decisions is critical to leaders. And I think when you get paralyzed, a long maybe slows down the process a quick yes or no moves the process. I tell the story a lot that when I was in my early 20s, it was the spring of 1981. And my college roommate had gone on, work for Epic Records went on to start a new business. And he called me in April that year and said, Rob, we're starting a new company. And we want you to be the number four guy, you're going to be the head of artists relations, and this thing is going to be huge. And I go over and meet him and Bob Pittman, a couple of executives, and they pitched me this idea that they're going to take over a cable TV network. And in 1981, no one had cable TV didn't exist. And they were going to make these mini movies and call them videos. And I looked at the forum and said, That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. And I'm not going. And of course, in August of 1981, MTV went on the air. And I never looked back, because I think all of us come to crossroads in our lives, and you, you make a decision, you own it for what it's worth, knowing that you can always pivot and change. And so owning your decisions, and believing in them with conviction is really important. And it frees you up to keep moving forward. It's when you're indecisive that the business slows down and doesn't serve you or those around you very well.

David Novak 32:09 

You know, it's obvious you're you're really creative, your out of the box thinker. Do you have a particular process you use to get to these kinds of insights? Robert, is just having a pulse of what's going on in your industry?

Rob Light 32:26 

Well, anyone who's going to be successful in industry has to have a pulse on on their business, and has to have a point of view. So I certainly have that. But But I am, as I said, I'm looking for certain cues, I'm looking for holes in the market that don't seem to be filled. I'm looking for opportunities and flagpoles that take you in a direction. So I'm constantly looking at anniversaries of client releases, I'm looking at events that may have happened that would trigger some other event. I'm watching, you know, if a certain sort of genre starts to take off, what does that mean? Down the road? Right? So, you know, if a genre of music is doing well, where's that going to lead to? And so, as I said earlier, I think people who lead start to see opportunity. I'll give you a couple examples to that. So as their business was growing, heritage rock started to become huge. And what do I mean by Heritage rock and generation of bands started to take off and have second lives. ZZ Top REO Speedwagon, Sammy Hagar, you know, Brian Adams, and you know, this shot of a heart, foreigner, all these bands were having huge second careers, right? Not new music, but the live business just took off again. And what occurred to me at the time, was everyone wants to feel a team, right? It's it's an arc, right? And it usually comes roughly in your 40s. If you think about it, I'm 18 to 24, I'm single, I'm running, I'm having a ball, I'm gonna music. Then you get married, you get a job, you have kids, and that slows down. And then somewhere in your 40s, when those kids are old enough, they don't need you every day. And you've got a bit of a potbelly. And you're gonna kind of want to feel young, and your favorite bands come into town, you want to go again. And so in seeing how big a business that became for us, and it was huge. I said to my staff, okay, now we've got to generationally look at every curve. That happens, right, that original curve of the late 60s 70s. What's going to happen to the next group that turns 40, and the next group and so we've constantly looked at, alright, who you know if a generation is turning 40, right, and the 2020 that it'd be people born in 1980, right? Their favorite music was 1995 to 2005. That's the next generation of heritage rock bands. I want to sign those artists because they're coming into their own. Right. And so it was taking something that worked and seeing an opportunity. That's a great example. And we built a huge business off the back of that. And now, in doing so, other people figured it out and went, wow, it's working for CA gotta get a piece of that. But it's been great for us. And interestingly, right now, we just had a huge conversation with actually a friend of ours, Jeff Yang, who has made a big commitment to LL Cool J. And for the first time, heritage music is going to fall into hip hop, there's a whole generation of hip hop artists that are going to experience this. And we want to be a part of that, as well. So that's an external looking opportunity. And then there are internal opportunities. And, and I think, really, good leaders are smart businessmen leave themselves open to see things, you know, it's, we all tend to move fast. But when you're in a certain position to step back and watch them come at you, and 20 years ago, I've literally just taken over and so busy. And I get a phone call from a bank, wanting to buy James Taylor for a private event. And private concerts were just starting to take off where people would would hire people. And I get on the call and because I was James Taylor station, so I still am. And the guy says, is James available. I looked at his calendar, and I said, Nope, he's not available. I'm sorry. He goes, Okay, thank you, and I hang up the phone. And the second I do I go, you're an idiot. Why didn't I sell him somebody else, right. And I realized to have that much information at my fingertips for roster so big, wouldn't work. And I had the notion I'm going to hire someone just to do private events, this guy is going to be every incoming call is going to go to him. And he's not letting these buyers off the phone until he sells him something. And we very quickly discovered there was a group of buyers who bought for these sort of events. And I said to this man, I hired a brilliant agent. I said Your job is to make them your client. I want every buyer to make CAA their first call. And the year he started, he booked $6 million in dates. In 2019, he booked $152 million in debt. Wow, I love your story. Okay, and we got the first call, and we still continue to do that we specialize in something. And artists love doing them. It's found money, it's easy to do. But again, it was just that sort of moment of You're an idiot. Because I was an idiot for hanging up on that guy. But most people when they think I'm an idiot and hang up, don't try to figure out why or how to fix it. And I think smart businessman that

David Novak 38:11 

is so true. It you know, in addition to being so innovative, Robbie, you're known as a you know, top notch deal maker? I mean, you have to do that in your business. How do you find ways to get people to say yes, and maybe you could do that. Give us an example of how you've done that that would really represent it? What are your favorite deal stories?

Rob Light 38:33 

Well, I think getting to yes, requires something I said earlier in the conversation, you have to listen to what that others, the other side of the equation really needs. Right? If you understand what they need, then you know what they're willing to give up to get it. Right. So if you go in and just demand with no sense of what do they need to feel like they want something, you've done a bad job. And so, so much of any negotiation I go into or any signing I go into, it's asking a lot of questions, I really want to understand what the other side is around us what they want, if it's a buyer, what they want and and, and taking all that information allows you to weigh it out. I also try to get to a point where in any negotiation that when I asked for the last deal point, that thing that feels crushing, but really isn't. I want to be able to say to the other side, if you give me this where done you know that hanging deal that feels like it's never going to close is so frustrating to the other side and it always it's debilitating to the process. So you want to get to a point where you can say to that guy look, I know we've we've gone back and forth and I probably taken a pound more than I should have. But if I could just get this we're good and I'm I'd rather not name the artist, but we're doing a huge deal. In New York at Madison Square Garden, this is many, many years ago before national tours. And the deal was just getting choking for the for the promoter in the building. And the manager said, Look, you know, this sounds great Is there anything I'm leaving on the table? And I and at the time, and an ad in New York Times was $140,000, which normally would come out of the artists fee. And I said, I'll tell you what, let's, let's tell them were confirmed, if they'll by the New York Times said, he said, Great. And so we went back and basically select deals done, if you would just give us one last thing. And I think the buyer was so happy for the day that he said, You got it, and we moved on. So I'm a big believer that you have to know what you need on your side, you have to know what the buyers thinking, and you got them give them an opportunity to say we're done. There's so many deals that just never closed, because the side the selling just doesn't know what they really want. And so they just keep pushing. And I don't think that's healthy.

David Novak 41:11 

You know, what your industry has historically been one is driven by the individual. And obviously, individual initiative, and creativity still matters. But as I understand that you've you've changed the organizational structure of your industry by bringing your clients teams, you know, that had to be a big shift in your category. What What was what drove your thinking?

Rob Light 41:36 

Well, a few things. First, we knew that artists wanted more than just tourists, they wanted to be in all these other areas, they wanted to write books, they wanted to do theater, they wanted to be in film, so you and you couldn't possibly know it all yourself. So instead of trying to transmit that I know everything, or I'll find out everything. And then try to be you know, the sort of secondhand communicator, left too much to chance and too many holes unfilled. If I could bring in somebody on my side and make them an expert, and feel that, that artists felt much better about it. Now, there are artists who want to solely talk to one person, but almost all love the idea of I've got a great filmmaker, and I've got a great book agent, this person has a point of view. And so everyone's attracted to a talent, intelligence, they're always attracted to people who know their craft. So why not surround them with that, and so, and that's way before me, and in fairness, Dave, you know, from ovitz on down to the people I'm partners with, it was always that team, let's help each other sort of philosophy. And then at the same time, when someone is smart, in a process, you've got to allow them to step up. And that's the other part that we do differently than everybody I tell this story a lot. I had hired a young black agent from a small company, he was worried about coming to a big company and getting lost. And I told him how different we were. And, you know, it felt like a sales pitch, even when I was saying at the time, but I convinced him to come. And Beyonce was doing a huge tour called the formation tour about eight years ago. And she said to me, I want to put a young Hip Hop act on every night. Can you put a list together up for me of the next, you know, up and coming Hip Hop acts. And so I call this young man and I said, Look, this is your expertise, you've got great years, can you put an email together give me 10 or 15 bands, that artists that I should submit. And he writes this incredible email, links to, you know, 15 artists and links to their music and reviews of their shows. And I mean, it was so well crafted. And he sends it to me, and I believe in almost every company that I compete with that head of that company would have taken that email, cut and pasted it and sent it on to Beyonce. We don't work that way. And I literally took this email and I called her and I said, I'm gonna forward you something. I didn't do this work. This young man did it. He's really smart. He understands this music. Just look at it. And if you've liked what you see, I'd like to put him in a room with you. And she loved it. Two days later, you know, 26 years old. He's in a room with Beyonce, his head's exploding. He had the greatest day. He's now part of the Beyonce team. And I look smart, right? I've empowered a young man who's now telling the world how great CAA is. He gets to go out and sign young bands and say I'm part of the Beyonce team. And he is and my client Beyonce thinks, Well, this is a guy who actually doesn't pretend to be something he's not and I can trust that he's going to give me the best information. So it's just philosophically how we think and I think great companies really Do that organically, they don't even have to try to do it. It just happens organically.

David Novak 45:05 

That's a great example, Robert, where obviously, you didn't forget how you got started, you got this 26 year old guy sitting across from Beyonce, that's got to be incredible. You mentioned earlier, you mentor a lot of young people. So you've got a lot of people that you need to coach, what's a coaching session, like with Rob Light,

Rob Light 45:22 

I try to look at different moments. And like all brilliant leaders, whether in the military, great people step back and look at every situation that's happened and learn from it, right? So you look at your successes and say, what do we do, right? And you look at your failures, and probably take more time and say, what did we do wrong? And in those moments, that's where you want to sit with people on that particular project, say, what did we do wrong here? Where did we miss an opportunity to communicate? Did we communicate in the best way? Did we present this particular deal in a way where they could have learned, you know, they might have said, Yes, and so those mentoring sessions are usually coming out of situations that we've been in. And of course, I have 40 years of stories to pull from. So I'm trying to take other examples to show them what worked. And personalities are what they are, sometimes you just lose, because you lose. But I'm always trying to help people communicate better, to listen better to look for those opportunities. So it's mostly those sessions come out of wins and losses, and experiential things that we can look back on and hopefully say, you know, in the future, don't do that. Again, I'm great. And we've talked about this, you know, I teach a lot of college classes about working ethic. And there's a whole notion of communication. I'm a Communications major, right? So if you go to see a concert, right, and now you're gonna write an email the next day to that artists are you watch them on The Tonight Show? Wherever you see, most people are going to write an email that says, Hey, I was at the show last night. Wow, that was great. You're amazing. Loves, you know, Sally. Well, that doesn't say anything. Right? The email, the communication that matters, is the one that says I saw your show last night, it was amazing. I love the third song where you did this guitar solo. And I love the song where the lights did this. And I love how you transitioned from that song to this song, and plugin, movie, TV show, whatever. What you're now telling that artist is I was paying attention. And that is so much so communication to me, correspondence, how we talk to each other, says so much about your passion and what you were looking to do. So the letter that says, an artist and this manager, lawyer manager sent me the music. And I wrote this long email, dissecting what I liked about every song and what I didn't like about a couple of songs. And the kid in the manager called me and said, We didn't get this much detail from our record company. I can't believe you spent the time you don't know what it means to me that you listen to my music. He would never have had that same opinion. If I just said, Hey, your musics great. I thought it was fantastic. He knows I spend time with him. And that's so you know, in that teaching, you're trying to show them by example. But But communication is really key. You know,

David Novak 48:41 

shifting gears for a second. And by the way, I couldn't agree with you more about the communication. So I hear heard through the grapevine that you're a big believer, and Tinkerbell, you got it. You got to explain that to me.

Rob Light 48:57 

Wow, boy, you did some research? Well, you know, I have five kids who probably watched Peter Pan 1000 times, like you probably had and you know, Tinkerbell is really just your imagination. You either believe or you don't believe. And if you believe in Tinkerbell, she exists. And if you don't, she doesn't, she dies. Right. And the concept of that is sort of just the foundation of how I think if you believe you can be successful, if you believe in yourself, if you believe in the culture that we've created, it's going to grow and it's going to do great. If you don't, it dies. And so the notion of what Tinker Bell is and probably translate to lots of other things, is really just that function of that. I believe, and I believe in the construct of what my company is and how I run my life and if I stopped believing I fear would die. So that's where I

David Novak 50:02 

love. I love it. You know, I also did a little research, there are a couple of things that I read that just blew me away, which was, you're able to sign staying with a phone call it you know, how in the heck were you able to pull that off?

Rob Light 50:16 

Well, but it's a great story about business and, and I will relate it to entertainment, but it's true of every business, right? friendships and relationships are everything, right. And you know that from how we know each other, and you think of your, your contact list of friends that would do anything for you, and you would do anything for them. And so I tell that to everybody, you meet people, and you can't be everyone's best friend, but treating people right and staying close. And so I met a woman, when I was a young age in New York, she was a publicist at a&m records. We became friends, you know, she would tip me to young bands, I would tip her to things that she should be seeing. And we stayed friendly. And of course, she went on to become an independent public system. I'd send her clients now. And then she lived in New York, I lived in LA. And we stayed in touch. We weren't best friends, but we were friends. And I respected her immensely. And obviously she did for me. Never expecting anything out of it. Because that's the beauty of great well, you don't expect anything, your friends because they're your friends. And she calls me one day and says I'm giving up my PR firm. And I said, Kathy, you're kidding. What do you do? And she goes, I'm going into management, I'm going to manage thing. I go, Wow, fantastic. That's great. She goes, you want to be as agent? I go? Of course I do. Yeah. What do I got to do? Where do I gotta go? And she said, No, if you want to do it, you're in. I told them, I'm going to make you the agent. And so my punch line is always it took me 25 years, and one phone call to sign stay. And it's and I could give you countless stories like that. But those relationships, those friendships, when nothing is expected of them pay the biggest dividends. And so I'm a big believer in that as well.

David Novak 52:14 

This next one may have the same rationale behind it, for all I know is that you became the agent for the late legendary prince, and you never met him. How did that happen?

Rob Light 52:25 

Well, that's sort of the opposite story. You know, I he was a CIA client, because my COVID signed them and did the Purple Reign movie. And and so I got put in as a young guy to be his agent. And I booked the Purple Reign tour and a bunch of his big tours. And in that sort of eight, nine year span, he fired for managers, three lawyers and and I realized the only reason I stayed in is he didn't know who I was. Or I probably would have been would have been fired. At one point he finally asked over to said to Mike, you're going to be my guy. And Mike said, No, I'm not your guy. Rob likes your guy. And he said, Who's Rob blades. So he's been your music agent. Alright, well, I got to meet him and I flew to New York City and met him at the Ritz Carlton Hotel, he took over the restaurant. And I had a big round table for 12 with two chairs. And I get led in by a bodyguard and I sit on one side and he comes through the kitchen and sits on the other side and talks to me for 45 minutes in a whisper. I mean, I literally had to lean in and hear what he was saying. And he finishes his oratory, and then I respond and talk for about 30 minutes. And he says, Alright, I'll think about it. And he goes out through the kitchen door. I fly back and Mike COVID says how to go and I said, I don't have a friggin clue. We're just meeting I've ever been in and two days later, I get a phone call from the bodyguard that he's in LA and can I come to the studio to meet him and I go down to the studio 11 o'clock at night and he makes me watch a movie with him a film called in like Flint with James Coburn. I don't know why. And we watch the movie. And then we start talking about quarter to one in the morning and I left at 7am and for the next three and a half years. I talked to him every day of his life. And it was an incredible journey. But I told Mike ovitz and hate to tell my wife because he called the house every day every day. I said, you know, I'm gonna get fired. And she goes, Why is it because inevitably he fires everybody. And and so now that he knows me. I'm in as but I lasted three and a half years and remarkable experience to be around someone that broke.

David Novak 54:49 

Even and I had the good fortune to meet each other on the golf course. And I know you're an avid golfer. Tell us about your strangest expense array is with an artist on the golf course.

Rob Light 55:04 

I don't have a strange experience with an artist, but I'm going to use an artist manager if I could. I was playing golf with a manager. And and you've heard this expression, you know, golf reveals so much in four hours, you learn so much about a person. And we're playing and we're on a par five, and the manager does one shot dumps and other shot hits it over the green. And you know, and now he's got a chip for an eight. And he knocks it in the cup by some miracle, and he literally looks at me and says that ship was so good. Give me a six. Okay, like I don't, you got to live with your own scar, right? You live in your own bubble. And I went, that was weird. But that's how he ran his business. He made up the rolls broke him everywhere he went, right. And, and we sort of fell out and never really worked it because I just didn't trust him, you know. And so, I play with guys who will will get on a golf course and say, Look, I don't gamble. I don't bet I don't keep score. I'm going to drop a ball, move it to me. Fantastic. I know how you play. And I respect that. But if we're actually going to play the play. And so, you know, and it showed me so much about who this man was. And like I said, we really haven't done business since so. Not so much strange. And that I just find it's, it's a game of integrity and and, and honesty and camaraderie. And when you respect it, it gives you so much and when you don't you sort of missed the whole point of the beauty of it.

David Novak 56:46 

Absolutely. You know, wow, this has been so much fun. And I want to have a little bit more before we close this off by doing a lightning round with you. Okay, sure. What would be the three words that best describe you?

Rob Light 57:02 

optimistic. Honest, and? And loving?

David Novak 57:11 

What's something about you that few people would know?

Rob Light 57:15 

Wow. I'm gonna give a slightly longer answer day that I am driven by the fear of failure more than the will to win,

David Novak 57:25 

I believe, if you can actually think that you're gonna get fired after being at the top.

Rob Light 57:31 

You know, as a sidebar, I was with a bunch of CEOs at a dinner talking just about this. And almost all my said, because I asked this question a lot. What drives you the will to win or the fear of failure? And almost all said the fear of failure, that I my desire not to let my staff down. I feel responsible for so many people. And that responsibility. Drives me so interesting.

David Novak 57:57 

Do you know you're looking at talent all the time? Do you? Do you have a hidden talent?

Rob Light 58:03 

Oh, boy. I think I'm a very perceptive person. I can read people really well, really quickly.

David Novak 58:11 

What's your biggest pet peeve?

Rob Light 58:15 

Wasting time.

David Novak 58:17 

If you could be one of your artists for a day, who would it be?

Rob Light 58:22 

Wow. Boy on a live stage. Probably Bruce Springsteen in a studio making music Stevie Wonder,

David Novak 58:35 

your favorite TV show?

Rob Light 58:39 

Other than live sports, The Big Bang Theory. So

David Novak 58:41 

it's not the voice. Okay. It's not America's Got Talent, you got to get away from it all. What was the most interesting Rock and Roll Hall of Fame board meeting?

Rob Light 58:52 

See now that I I can't talk about that day because we sort of have this cone of silence. But what I will say about being on the nominating committee of the Hall of Fame is a room of some of the most passionate intelligent people. And the the passion for who they think should and shouldn't be in is so intense. That it's an honor to be part of that group.

David Novak 59:19 

Yeah, I know you're a big believer in giving back, Rob in you love lecturing, as you mentioned earlier, and I know you've done a lot with your alma mater, Syracuse, one of the top three learnings that you would share with with students.

Rob Light 59:36 

When I teach classes, there are lots I have this whole notion of insights and observations and I could probably give you 10 But I I'm gonna give you two or three first. I tell young people learn to say I don't know I need help. I was wrong, I made a mistake. You know, it's never the mistake that's the issue is trying to hide it and not dealing with it. That's a problem. And you can't know everything. I believe that, that it's hard to change a person's nature. So understanding people is really important getting the people to talk, you know, I always tell people, if you're going to learn to listen and encourage people to speak, never ask a yes or no question. Think about when you say to somebody, did you like a show? It's yes or no? Why did you like that show gives you a different response. So learning how the art of communication getting people to speak is a skill. And I always tell people, if you're gonna do something, do it. If you can't do it, if you don't want to do it, then don't do it. Right. In Hollywood, and I believe this is true. Now in all business. When you say to somebody, I'm going to try, they hear the words I will. Right. So think about your your own life, you tell somebody someone asks you for something, you say, I'm going to try to get that done. The person on the other end of the phone hanging up says he's going to get it done. And so you really have to under understand the power of that. And, you know, I'm a huge believer in friendship, I just feel relationships are what drives this and never taking them for granted is pretty important.

David Novak 1:01:37 

Rob, you've got five kids, you've been married, I think for over 30 years. How do you balance your 24/7 work life and still make your family your your top priority, which I know you do.

Rob Light 1:01:50 

I am a big believer that you have to always be present in whatever it is you're doing. And so wherever I am, I am trying to be all there. I was honored a wonderful event by the City of Hope and big industry, honor. And my five kids actually presented me with the award, which was the first time that had ever happened. And each of them made a speech. And my daughter at the end of it says, and I don't know how my dad did it. But he never missed a soccer game. He never missed a dance recital. He never missed an appointment with me. And I love him for that. And of course it ended and everyone in the room who I work with said how'd you do? You know, because you're at every concert, it's impossible. And I my answer was simple that you're you're present in the moment, right? If you're home, and you're on your cell phone, or you're doing something, you're not present, you may say, Well, I'm home with my kids. But that's, that's not being a father. If you're working and you're not present, then then you're not being a good leader or a good agent. And so whether it's you know, I don't think my kids back in the day ever saw me with a cell phone at a restaurant because I wouldn't pull it out in front of them. If I had something like go to the restroom and go look at it in the restroom because I didn't want them to think there was something on the phone that was more important than them. I tell my agents if you're at a show, do not look at your phone. Because don't think for a second the artist isn't watching you. Or more importantly, other executives looking at you going, Oh, they must not be into this because they're looking at their phone. Being present and being in the moment. Is is how it works. And when you do it, people feel it. And when you don't they feel it just as much so obviously, my my children felt I was there because when I was there I was I wasn't at a sports game, taking phone calls when they were playing soccer. I was on the sidelines here in forum.

David Novak 1:03:57 

Well Rob, I know you did this podcast they because we are friends and you're very busy guy and I can't tell you how much I appreciate you doing it. And I'm gonna wrap this up with just one last question. What's your unfinished business?

Rob Light 1:04:12 

I'm not a believer in legacy I'm really not I think you do what you do while you're doing it. And you know you hope you've impacted some people subconsciously and tone and talent. Your family and friends of those who remember you the businesses move on and someone will sit in my chair just like every you know, CEO somewhere someone else takes over and businesses move on so and I don't think there's anything I can do in my business life to change how people perceive me. They either like me or they don't they respect me or they don't I you know, I can't change that. You know, my unfinished businesses is trying to make the most of whatever time you know God has given me to be here and so So whether it's being philanthropic, whether it's raising my children and my grandchildren, whether it's sharing experiences with you. That's what's unfinished. And I hope I have many, many, many years left to try to finish it. But I have a philosophy. My friends hear me say all the time, which is never missed a tee time. Like life doesn't give them back to you. So that's my unfinished business to enjoy every day. And to give back a little bit every day,

David Novak 1:05:32 

I love it. And I really, really have loved this conversation. Thank you so much, Rob.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:37 

You're welcome.

David Novak 1:05:47 

Well, that hour absolutely flew by is so fun to hear all of Rob's incredible stories from his years working with artists we all love and admire. And yeah, it's fun for us to listen to rob. But the big lesson for us as leaders, is how well Rob listens to others, is how he builds relationships. It's how he closes, Win Win deals is how he spots big opportunities in the market, like the Vegas music scene, he has learned to listen and now it's your turn this week as part of your weekly personal development plan. Let's take a page out of Rob's playbook. One of the things he said in this conversation, I think gets right to the heart of what makes him a good listener, and his that he always tries to be present where he is. So often we're in meetings or a dinner, but mentally we're distracted and we're thinking about what else we have to do, or what we want to say next. You can't listen if you're not present. So this week, if you're hanging with family or friends, set your phone aside, if you're in a meeting, stay focused instead of thinking about what you want to say next, truly make space to be present and listen this week, and I know it's going to make your relationships and your business even better. So do you want to know how leaders lead? What we learned today is that great leaders learn to listen. Thanks again for tuning in to another episode of how leaders lead where every Thursday you get to listen in while I interview some of the very best leaders in the world. I make it a point to give you something simple on each episode that you can apply to your business so that you will become the best leader that you can be